Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[Aeryn13]

She apparently wants any kids but her own. I mean, those are like the plague. Either she was always like that or the character gives a new meaning to the phrase "coming back wrong".   

[gonzosgirrl]

Clearly the actress and TPTB are thrilled with the character. It's 'us' who've got it wrong. 

I sincerely hope Dean kicks the door shut behind her, literally and figuratively.

[catrox14]

Good grief, I hate  Mary now an Sam Smith do es nothing to make me like Mary. I can't believe the show has managed to completely ruin her for me, but there it is.

[FlickChick]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:25 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Either she was always like that or the character gives a new meaning to the phrase "coming back wrong".   

LOL!! I almost spit out my water all over the computer when I read this.

[DeeDee79]

You know when I think about it the only moment since Mary has been brought back that I truly enjoyed was her fondness at seeing Baby and the memories that it obviously conjured of her and John. It grossed Dean out but it was a good moment.

[Pondlass1]

I'd be more understanding and sympathetic if the writing and acting were there.  Because I can relate to how she must have felt being jammed back into life on earth with two grown up sons she'd never met.  It was an opportunity to explore and get to know the Mary character and provide insight to this unusual circumstance.  (Buffy did such a better job with this scenario).

But no.  She was distant and cold from the get go.  She took off right away.  We weren't privy to reasons why or feelings - we would've understood if we had been. It seemed like she could not get away from them fast enough.  Ok ok I realize Sam's not a regular and can only appear in a certain number of episodes - but they handled it all wrong.  No affection or even interest in her boys.  Where they'd been, what they'd done.  She'd have been PROUD if she had taken the time to get to know them.  (She could've said she needed time to sort things and would stay with Jody for a few weeks.....)

And then on top of everything it seems she's always been this super hunter mom who left baby Dean to go hunt in Canada.  Who never protected her family even though she had the skills and knowledge of supernatural and knew that something bad was coming down the line.

TPTB got wind of fans' disgust... tweets saying She Can Die Now. So they're backtracking and she's all .... my boys my boys, oh where are my boys.

Naw - it's too late for me.  She can stay in the AU and sleep  with the likes of Ketch on black satin sheets.  

My heart aches for Dean.  My heart aches for myself.  I like to rewatch old episodes and they're kinda spoiled now.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

  My heart aches for myself.  I like to rewatch old episodes and they're kinda spoiled now

This is their biggest crime. So much history has been carelessly tossed aside, both in canon and lore. And there is nothing they've ruined more thoroughly than Mary Winchester.

[FlickChick]

19 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is their biggest crime. So much history has been carelessly tossed aside, both in canon and lore. And there is nothing they've ruined more thoroughly than Mary Winchester.

I was just thinking about this the other day when I watched the first two episodes of S12. They had so much potential to develop a wonderful character that we've only had glimpses/memories of. Dean and Sam were so thrilled to have her back! Her presence in their lives offered so much opportunity. And then the writers had their turn... WTF were they thinking???

[belbar]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

WTF were they thinking???

They weren't. That's one of the problems with them. Frequently they go for the big impact without thinking the consequences. What will happen after it. Where does it take the story. And then we're left with more senseless plots and all of us driving ourselves nuts looking for a reason or explanation.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, belbar said:

And then we're left with more senseless plots and all of us driving ourselves nuts looking for a reason or explanation.

This is so, so, so true!

[Bergamot]

I am sure that we are supposed to see Mary as very heroic when she tells Dean and Sam that she can't go back with them from the AU world because she can't abandon people. However, watching her in this episode just confirmed that for me the character has ended up being a big failure -- and NOT because she refuses to devote herself totally to being a good mommy to Dean and Sam above everything else in life.

As for abandoning people in trouble, isn't that what Mary did here? All Sam and Dean had to do was say she could take her little band of 25 back with them, along with a vague promise to look for a way to somehow defeat Michael and hopefully come back to this world, and Mary was perfectly content to leave. So easy!

She expressed no further reservations, such as worrying about what if they could not get back. She did not say, "But what about the little puppet show children? Who will protect them if I leave?" You know, the little children that watched Jack's shadow puppet show? All those little urchins with dirty faces, at the mercy of the angels without Mary to watch over them.  But who knows, maybe they are all already dead.

Here's another thing about Mary. When she told Dean and Sam that she could not leave, because her people needed her, I do not believe for a second that she meant, "They need every able-bodied fighter they can get." No, I am convinced that she was saying, "They need me, because I am General Mary!" The impression given is that she saw herself as indispensable to them.

Unfortunately even if the actress tells us that Mary became the big important leader of the rebels, that's not what we were shown. Sure, we saw her giving a few random orders to a few random rebels, but that is not the same as showing leadership. When Jack was itching to go after Michael, she just asked him instead to "wait for Bobby". Bobby is their real leader.  It was Bobby, not Mary, who coordinated with Dean and Sam to rescue Charlie and Ketch. Bobby was the one who brought everyone together and organized the vote on leaving. Even after they arrived at the bunker, it was Bobby who took charge and made the inspirational speeches, not Mary. She was busy smiling prettily at people as she handed out refreshments.

As for the supposed emotional bond that she formed with the rebels, I never saw it. Did we ever see her have a personal conversation with any of them except for Bobby? Showing her becoming their friend, forming connections, would not have taken a whole episode, just a scene or two, or even just a few lines with some good acting.

This was clinched for me when we saw her, along with Dean and Sam, talking to the rebels about returning through the rift. When she says to one of them, in the face of their obvious skepticism and suspicion, "You may not know my sons, but you do know me!" -- it fell completely flat.  I got absolutely zero sense of any mutual feeling of admiration, respect, or even liking between Mary and the rebels in that scene (or in any other scene, to be honest.) I almost expected the man she was addressing to respond, "Hell, no, lady! I don't know you -- why should I listen to you?" There certainly was no sense that he was thinking, "Oh no! Mary can't leave -- we need her!" It was Dean and Sam's words that tipped the balance, from what I could see, not Mary's influence.

The bottom line is that in my view Mary liked playing the role of General Mary; it was what she wanted, and Mary always does what she wants to do. Once she was reassured that she could take her band of rebels with her, she was happy to go. If they wanted to show Mary being heroic and sacrificial, they should have done something like having her encourage the others to go through the rift while she deliberately stayed behind to protect the puppet show children, or save those wounded by the angel bombs, or something like that. I know that the show wants me to admire Mary, I get that, but so far they haven't even convinced me to like the character.
 

[SueB]

10 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

 

Unfortunately even if the actress tells us that Mary became the big important leader of the rebels, that's not what we were shown. Sure, we saw her giving a few random orders to a few random rebels, but that is not the same as showing leadership. When Jack was itching to go after Michael, she just asked him instead to "wait for Bobby". Bobby is their real leader.  It was Bobby, not Mary, who coordinated with Dean and Sam to rescue Charlie and Ketch. Bobby was the one who brought everyone together and organized the vote on leaving. Even after they arrived at the bunker, it was Bobby who took charge and made the inspirational speeches, not Mary. She was busy smiling prettily at people as she handed out refreshments.

As for the supposed emotional bond that she formed with the rebels, I never saw it. Did we ever see her have a personal conversation with any of them except for Bobby? Showing her becoming their friend, forming connections, would not have taken a whole episode, just a scene or two, or even just a few lines with some good acting.
 

Indications of Mary's "status":
- "COMMANDER: You're with the Resistance. Inner circle. She's met with the Nephilim and the other-worlder, Mary. Michael will want her at the Northern Camp, for interrogation." (Bring 'em Back Alive)
- "AW CHARLIE: Uh...Last I heard, they were fighting somewhere in what remains of Dayton, Ohio, but I don't... Wait. Your mom?" (Bring 'em Back Alive)
- "MAGGIE: We heard the rebels, Jack and Mary, set up a satellite colony there, an outpost."

So that's 3 people who knew who Mary was and it wasn't just "hand out refreshments".  When they departed in Exodus, she occupied a key position (guarding the rear).  Yes, Bobby was clearly the leader.  It's unreasonable to expect Jack and Mary just to take over, but clearly they were well known and considered important.  And not just Jack.  

As for personal conversations, during the party we saw her talking with others. We didn't hear the conversation but she was clearly on friendly terms. 

If it didn't hit home to you then it wasn't enough for you, but they didn't actually ignore puttin in some references to build up her status. 

[BoxManLocke]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

As for personal conversations, during the party we saw her talking with others. We didn't hear the conversation but she was clearly on friendly terms. 

If it didn't hit home to you then it wasn't enough for you, but they didn't actually ignore puttin in some references to build up her status. 

I admire your optimism SueB, but I think when we have to refer to indistinct chatter as the only proof of a connection that supposedly lasted months and was strong enough for Mary to refuse going back with her sons, we're a little beyond "but it's just your opinion".

Everything about Mary's time in the AU was a distant afterthought for the writers, and it never should have been.

[Bergamot]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

clearly they were well known and considered important.  And not just Jack.  

Well, I think Jack was well-known and considered important -- he was the only one on their side with angelic powers. And Mary was known for being with Jack. Besides being known as the other-worlder who was always with Jack, I didn't see Mary do anything in AU world that justifies Samantha Smith's claim that Mary had become "General Mary".

 

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

As for personal conversations, during the party we saw her talking with others.

That's not exactly what I meant. I was thinking of the kind of bonding you see with comrades-at-arms, the kind of closeness that develops during life or death situations. I'm not saying Mary never conversed with any of these people, obviously she knew them and had talked to them. Being sociable with people at a party is one thing; wartime camaraderie is something else. Like what they made clear had developed between Charlie and Ketch.

[gonzosgirrl]

I've been chuckling over this tweet for the last 15 minutes.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've been chuckling over this tweet for the last 15 minutes.

I have always loved that account.  PS.  Thanks for nothing, Amara. LOL

[Res]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have always loved that account.  PS.  Thanks for nothing, Amara. LOL

 

19 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've been chuckling over this tweet for the last 15 minutes.

Several people need to retweet that and send it to Dabb, all the writers, CEOs, etc. LOL! LOVE THAT! So accurate!

[devlin]

I would be interested in sam smith’s thoughts about what Mary thinks of dean coz when she looks at him, my interpretation is that there is no love or affection but rather condescension, frustration and annoyance 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, devlin said:

I would be interested in sam smith’s thoughts about what Mary thinks of dean coz when she looks at him, my interpretation is that there is no love or affection but rather condescension, frustration and annoyance 

She made some comments about him, about Mary and about John at Toronto con last year that made me question if she ever watched an episode she wasn't in. I have a video of it on YouTube, linked in this thread somewhere. 

I don't know if was here or somewhere else I read it, but it was suggested that the closest thing to 'real' Mary we saw was the bitch with Zachariah in DSOTM. :/

[SueB]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

She made some comments about him, about Mary and about John at Toronto con last year that made me question if she ever watched an episode she wasn't in. I have a video of it on YouTube, linked in this thread somewhere. 

I don't know if was here or somewhere else I read it, but it was suggested that the closest thing to 'real' Mary we saw was the bitch with Zachariah in DSOTM. :/

When I spoke to her in April 2016 she watched EVERY episode.  That was before she was officially back, but she live-tweets most episodes, regardless of whether or not she is in them. 

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, SueB said:

When I spoke to her in April 2016 she watched EVERY episode.  That was before she was officially back, but she live-tweets most episodes, regardless of whether or not she is in them. 

Every episode since 1x01? Because if she did and still says the things she does, then I have even less respect for her opinion. 

[SueB]

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Every episode since 1x01? Because if she did and still says the things she does, then I have even less respect for her opinion. 

She said she was a big fan and watches every week and always had.  

On your bold statement:
- look at the variety of opinions on this site -- there are many different takes on the show. And if she was talking about something she was acting, that also is a different POV than just fan watching.  

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

She said she was a big fan and watches every week and always had.  

On your bold statement:
- look at the variety of opinions on this site -- there are many different takes on the show. And if she was talking about something she was acting, that also is a different POV than just fan watching.  

I didn't say she wasn't entitled to her opinion(s), I said I don't respect them - and I don't. I literally didn't agree with one thing she said in that panel regarding the characters. Not one thing. I'm entitled to that, too. And as far as her watching/knowing/being a fan of the show - she got enough things blatantly wrong that I have to wonder about that.

[sarthaz]

On 2/21/2017 at 11:40 PM, sarthaz said:

This Girl is on Fire?

 

On 2/21/2017 at 11:43 PM, DeeDee79 said:

This literally made me laugh out loud *snicker*

 

On 2/21/2017 at 11:52 PM, rue721 said:

I love it

 

On 2/22/2017 at 6:35 PM, SueB said:

I'm TOTALLY voting for "This Girl is on Fire"

 

On 2/22/2017 at 8:36 PM, Casseiopeia said:

I was going to suggest Mother Mary but This Girl is on Fire is much better.

 

On 2/22/2017 at 9:11 PM, catrox14 said:

I'll throw my lot in with "This Girl is On Fire"

 

Can we please make this happen now? :)

[Supafanstan]

3 hours ago, sarthaz said:

 

Quote

This Girl is on Fire?

Can we please make this happen now? :)

+10000000000000000000000000  OMG I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

[FlickChick]

Heard "Girl on Fire" on the radio - made me think of Mary. :( Too bad...

[Res]

My only response to this thread's name is I WISH SHE WAS! 

I mean I used to be excited about her return, until S12. Now I hope that NO ONE I LIKE Ever Comes back.

[BoxManLocke]

So that's two seasons in a row where Dabb had no idea what to do with a character he chose to bring back.

 

Third time's the charm, maybe ? Gotta admit, I'm curious to see if they can fuck it up this time ; Mary's right where she's supposed to be, invested in the search for Dean, she has no reason to go wander off somewhere else. As an actual ally that's there, ready to interact with the characters we love, I think this could work.

[Res]

3 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

So that's two seasons in a row where Dabb had no idea what to do with a character he chose to bring back.

 

Third time's the charm, maybe ? Gotta admit, I'm curious to see if they can fuck it up this time ; Mary's right where she's supposed to be, invested in the search for Dean, she has no reason to go wander off somewhere else. As an actual ally that's there, ready to interact with the characters we love, I think this could work.

For your sake, I hope your optimism is rewarded. I have NO faith in the writers or showrunner anymore. Only the actors and most of the crew keep me going.

[Pondlass1]

There's an actress on the show Fear the Walking Dead who receives a lot of criticism because her facial expressions do not match the script or situation.

This is my issue with Samantha Smith.   Even if writers had written her a scene with her sons when she first returned, tearfully asking about their lives, hugging it out... I don't think it would have worked because of Samantha.  She comes across as detached and cold no matter  the scene.

Anyway, I wish they'd left the character in heaven. 

[trxr4kids]

This thread title just makes me think " I wish".

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

There's an actress on the show Fear the Walking Dead who receives a lot of criticism because her facial expressions do not match the script or situation.

 

I know of whom you are speaking with the actress from FTWD. She was on Deadwood and I thought she was quite good and I can't figure out why she went off the cliff on FTWD unless it's a directing issue as well.  I do wonder if some of these actors are using botox and leaves them unable to adequately use their all their facial muscles to show expressions.  And before anyone comes at me for being sexist or catty or whatever, I've seen this same thing happen with male actors who also use botox.  If you can't move your forehead or show frown lines or have some smile lines around the eyes, that will undermine a performance especially if the actor can't communicate enough internal life to overcome the loss of facial movement.

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

This thread title just makes me think " I wish".

Last time I watched the pilot, I found myself rooting for the fire.

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Last time I watched the pilot, I found myself rooting for the fire.

LOL! Not that I would wish anyone dead, but I do think they should have kept her in heaven since I think she would rather be there than here with her sons. How sad! But think about it, as a hunter she knew that there would be a price to pay for her deal with YellowEyes, but she made it anyway - thinking only of her own happiness. Hmmm.... sound like anyone else we know?

[gonzosgirrl]

15 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh. I'd agree with you if I had cared more about Mary before, but for me (and I realize miles will vary here) she wasn't developed enough to begin with (pre-season 12) for that.

Presently, for me, it's going to take a lot to dethrone the ruining of Carl (The Walking Dead) who, while not beloved by everyone, was beloved by me and had 6+ seasons of character development that was thrown out the window so that a character who should be dead many times over could be justified in being allowed to live. For me, nothing they could do with Mary could top that, because she is just a supporting character, not the presumed future of the show (as Carl was presumed to be before they ruined his character and then killed him ...stupidly at that.)

Going to stop now before I get too off topic, but if anyone wants to compare character destruction, I'd be willing to take it to the show comparison thread.

I don't watch TWD but I feel your pain every time you talk about Carl.

I guess what I mean about Mary is more the ruined potential of the character as much as the thoroughly destroyed memory of her. I get that it's possible had an idealized image of her based on a 4 year old's memories and the absolute trauma of his life post-mommy-burning-on-the-ceiling. It wouldn't be normal if he didn't. But they showed us more than just his memory of her (which would be WIAWSNB), they showed us actual Mary, alive and well in the 70's - a woman who wanted out of the life, who wanted to be 'just a mom' and was on her way to doing that. The Mary in the pilot seemed to be a happy homemaker and mother. So this uber-warrior who doesn't want to be labeled, who hunted after Dean was born, who can't warm up to her own sons the way she can to strangers (like, instantly), this person who was literally given a new chance at life and to know her children, but chooses not to at every opportunity? Yeah. Ruined. Not only going forward, but for re-watching beloved episodes.

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess what I mean about Mary is more the ruined potential of the character as much as the thoroughly destroyed memory of her. I get that it's possible had an idealized image of her based on a 4 year old's memories and the absolute trauma of his life post-mommy-burning-on-the-ceiling. It wouldn't be normal if he didn't. But they showed us more than just his memory of her (which would be WIAWSNB), they showed us actual Mary, alive and well in the 70's - a woman who wanted out of the life, who wanted to be 'just a mom' and was on her way to doing that. The Mary in the pilot seemed to be a happy homemaker and mother. So this uber-warrior who doesn't want to be labeled, who hunted after Dean was born, who can't warm up to her own sons the way she can to strangers (like, instantly), this person who was literally given a new chance at life and to know her children, but chooses not to at every opportunity? Yeah. Ruined. Not only going forward, but for re-watching beloved episodes.

I can see this. I think for me though, it's hard to reconcile the Mary I saw in "In the Beginning" and "The Song Remains the Same" with the one we have now and the one I saw in "All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt 1."  I agree that the Mary we saw in ItB and TSRtS did have potential - and I likely would feel the loss of potential more if that Mary (meaning that actress) was playing the part here and now -  but for me Mary was already a little suspect long before she came back in season 12. That we found out that she knew the YED? That put a question in my mind about the idealized Mary already right there. And once we learned that she had been a hunter and found out the history behind how she knew the YED... nope.

Either Mary had been putting her potential happiness so above the potential danger that she was willing to just ignore all of the potential bad that could happen from making a demon deal - which could maybe inform the Mary we have now, in my opinion - or she was so desperate to put the hunting behind her that she had been willing to ignore any and all signs of danger. No research into breaking deals even? Or what could potentially happen? If it had been me - and if I had decided to go through with the YED deal in the first place, which questionable - and a demon told me something was going to happen in 10 years, and I knew about the supernatural and demons? You better believe I'd have a HUGE red star on my calendar on that date and have consulted every reputable psychic in the area, gotten every talisman, spell, protection I could think of. I might not even have had a second child, because one to protect would have been enough. And if I wasn't willing to use any and all supernatural protection, I might have even given the first one up for adoption in hopes that it might keep him safe and maybe give him a better chance of that normal life Mary supposedly so wanted. (But then again I don't have children, so I admit that this might not ring true for someone who does have children and may therefore might not even consider giving them up.)

But Mary didn't do any of that. She chose to submerse herself in that "normal life" and ignore the real dangers... and look what it got her: dead. And for me, I think that's one of the reasons she won't bond with Sam and Dean. They are the direct result of Mary embracing that normal life no matter what. The "experiment" in her opinion was a failure. In heaven she could remain in her little bubble and forget her "failure" because in heaven she never had to face the results of it... but being brought back? Nope: big, honking 6 foot plus consequences with feelings and baggage due to her decisions. So her solution now is to pretend / believe she'd never really given hunting and that vigilance up to begin with and instead embrace being the hunter she perhaps thought that she should have been in order to protect herself and her family in the first place. And since strangers don't know her past or her "failures" she can continue on pretending and being "all she can be" with them and get that chance to "do it right" this time.***

That's my reading of Mary, and I don't really see it as too much of a contradiction to the Mary we saw in "All Hell..., Pt 1." It actually kind of fits for me, because I'd always wondered about how she could just let such an important piece of information just slide and not tell anyone - especially John - at least something. And the denial and/or self absorbed angle was the only thing I could come up with even back then... And actually that's why Dean having some repressed hate for Mary and having to forgive her made so much sense to me, because all Dean's life since he was 4 1/2 he's wanted to protect Sam... yet Mary apparently just sort of shrugged her shoulders "meh" when it came down to protecting her kids - and in that case it turned out specifically Sam - even though she - especially with her hunter background - should have known that there could potentially be danger. Tragic, yes, but also very fallible and not what I would call the perfect mother.

So I guess that's why for me Mary isn't so much wasted potential as the potential outcome of what her character was maybe all along... she just hasn't evolved yet since her return - if she ever even does. Maybe she has to hit rock bottom yet again for that to happen. *shrug*

*** Interestingly, I sort of see it as similar to Sam in "What Is..." if Sam hadn't "seen the light" and gotten back with Dean and decided to embrace the life again, but instead had just continued on in his somewhat delusional world that his going to college was. When Sam saw the warning signs - Jessica - he slowly realized there was no ignoring everything. But instead of coming back to it when confronted with the YED, Mary seemingly chose to remain ignorant and put her wants above the right thing to do, and in a way, she's still doing that except instead she's trying to "make it right" by going in the other direction and embracing hunting - as Sam had told Dean she might be doing - as a way to cope. But in doing so, she's still not acknowledging her mistakes, but is instead trying to ignore them. Considering she should have hit "rock bottom" with the second YED debacle (when YED came for Sam), I guess maybe Mary isn't going to admit the mistakes she made - and it wasn't really the making the deal part, it was the afterwards that was the mistake, in my opinion - or try to change herself like Sam (in my opinion, because I know not everyone agrees with me on that) did. (Twice, because apparently the first time didn't take entirely.)

[FlickChick]

@AwesomO4000, I'm not sure what episode you are referring to where we "see Mary", but she was not in "All Hell, Pt 1...". In that episode, Sam was abducted by the YED; with other special kids in Cold Oak; Dean and Bobby searching for him, and we all know how it ended...:(

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

@AwesomO4000, I'm not sure what episode you are referring to where we "see Mary", but she was not in "All Hell, Pt 1...". In that episode, Sam was abducted by the YED; with other special kids in Cold Oak; Dean and Bobby searching for him, and we all know how it ended...:(

Didn't Azazel show Sam what happened on the night Mary died in that episode?

Edited July 30, 2018 by trxr4kids
when and on

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Didn't Azazel show Sam what happened when the night Mary died in that episode?

Yup! It was basically a rehash of the scene in the pilot except Mary says "it's you" before she's burned on the ceiling.

[FlickChick]

Yes, I had forgotten about that little scene. But I'm not sure it shows us anything different about Mary as we look at it now because of the other time-traveling episodes. At the time, it was big news - news, I might add that Sam decided to keep to himself as well.

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

She chose to submerse herself in that "normal life" and ignore the real dangers... and look what it got her: dead. And for me, I think that's one of the reasons she won't bond with Sam and Dean.

But she didn't really submerse herself in the normal life since we saw in the Asa Fox she hunted still. 

 

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The Mary in the pilot seemed to be a happy homemaker and mother. So this uber-warrior who doesn't want to be labeled, who hunted after Dean was born, who can't warm up to her own sons the way she can to strangers (like, instantly), this person who was literally given a new chance at life and to know her children, but chooses not to at every opportunity? Yeah. Ruined.

ITA, we ( or at least I ) learned she didn't even cook and apparently resented cutting crusts off PB&J*, that hardly screams happy homemaker to me. Add to that that she hunted while Dean was a toddler and John was clueless and it doesn't paint Mary in a flattering or even remotely likable light for me.

*I have children, if I hadn't seen one in over 20 years my go to response would be to make their childhood favorites, I wasn't even a homemaker, I just actually liked my kids most of the time the little monsters. For that matter my 16 month old grandson lives in another state and I've only seen him through facetime and I make damn sure to send him cookies every few weeks to try and suss out a favorite for when he or we visit in person.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Yes, I had forgotten about that little scene. But I'm not sure it shows us anything different about Mary as we look at it now because of the other time-traveling episodes. At the time, it was big news - news, I might add that Sam decided to keep to himself as well.

In addition to showing us that Mary knew the YED - which was important in my opinion - it also showed us the demon blood part which kind of upped the anti as to what had gone on. And the reason why I think Mary knowing was important is because it showed us that Mary maybe wasn't as unaware of what was going on as she appeared from the pilot episode.

And as I said, the addition of Mary being a hunter in "In the Beginning" - which shed light on Mary's "It's you" - for me showed what I talked about above... that Mary was basically ignoring the danger in lieu of her living her life the way she wanted, perhaps damn the consequences.

And that was my point. Yes, the Mary in "In the Beginning" and "The Song Remains the Same" did have potential, but what we saw from "All Hell..." that Mary chose a course of action that was potentially reckless  in order to see that "potential" through kind of put a damper on the "potential" for me long before we saw Mary in season 12.

As for Sam not telling Dean, I give Sam a break on that one because 1) he got dead soon after that and 2) after he wasn't dead anymore or dealing with impending YED, he right after that learned that Dean had a year left to live. So for me, it was understandable that that Sam would be kind of wrapped up in trying to save Dean - which was a bit more important at the time, I think, than relaying the origin of powers Sam no longer even had anymore, so I can actually see why Sam didn't tell Dean.

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yup! It was basically a rehash of the scene in the pilot except Mary says "it's you" before she's burned on the ceiling.

...And the above mentioned demon blood - which I think was a pretty big piece of added information. (Though I admit not Mary related per se... just a bit horrifying in lieu of the Mary knowing info too.

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

But she didn't really submerse herself in the normal life since we saw in the Asa Fox she hunted still.

This is true, but it was on her terms... perhaps when the "normal life" she wanted wasn't quite working the way she had hoped. That still didn't mean though that she was willing ot burst that bubble, because she still kept everything to herself.

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

ITA, we ( or at least I ) learned she didn't even cook and apparently resented cutting crusts off PB&J*, that hardly screams happy homemaker to me. Add to that that she hunted while Dean was a toddler and John was clueless and it doesn't paint Mary in a flattering or even remotely likable light for me.

I'm not so down on Mary for not cooking. Not everyone likes to cook. There were plenty of other ways she could have been a good mother. And though we didn't know about Mary continuing hunting, we did already know that Mary didn't tell John... which goes to the for me less forgivable part that she kept that secret despite the potential danger. So for me not too much really changed from what I already saw from Mary.

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

*I have children, if I hadn't seen one in over 20 years my go to response would be to make their childhood favorites, I wasn't even a homemaker, I just actually liked my kids most of the time the little monsters. For that matter my 16 month old grandson lives in another state and I've only seen him through facetime and I make damn sure to send him cookies every few weeks to try and suss out a favorite for when he or we visit in person.

Oh I completely agree, but again, for me Mary not wanting to acknowledge Sam and Dean, because it bursts her bubble - both the one that she had in heaven and the one that she wanted to create in the present - isn't all that much of a stretch from a Mary who ignored all of the warning signs and apparently made no precautions at all against the YED despite knowing better, all to keep up the illusion of her happy home while ignoring the reality all around her. For me, one isn't that much different than the other, but I understand the frustration with Mary now mainly because Mary hasn't yet changed, neither learning from or even acknowledging her past mistakes... but again after learning that Mary made the deal in the first place but failed to take precautions even after seeing her parents murdered showed me that she didn't learn anything back then either.

The BMoL situation just showed more of the same... what Mary wanted to be true - that the BMoL could rid the world of monsters - was more important than the fact that the chances of it being true were slim, so she basically ignored all of the warning signs. Again. Much like she did back then. The chances that the demon who killed her parents wasn't going to do something awful in 10 years was pretty slim based on what she knew... but Mary chose to believe it anyway.

Pretty much same / same for me. And that's where I'm coming from, though I get that the added information would change things for some concerning Mary. Me though, I was already much of the way there.

[trxr4kids]

54 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not so down on Mary for not cooking. Not everyone likes to cook. There were plenty of other ways she could have been a good mother

It's not about the cooking, it's about the effort. For someone who wanted to live a stereotypical late 70's housewife lifestyle she either failed miserably or didn't give 2 shits, based on S12 on betting it's the latter. I also don't necessarily enjoy cooking* however since I chose to have children, I unlike Mary felt obliged to ensure they were properly fed and since my husband would have killed us all tragically** had that task fallen to him, I did it anyway. 

Also how would anyone start a "what have you been doing these last several decades while I was dead"conversation without some sort of comfort food or drink is beyond me, surely instant cocoa and a bag of keebler's isn't asking too much.

Mary put forth zero effort completely leaving it up to her children alone to reassure her, try to connect with her and offer her comfort and support, that will never be okay to me.

*Baking is different, it's like meditation for me almost.

**Oddly he can make a miniscule variety of simple breakfast foods.

[devlin]

The character of Mary has been completely ruined. We learned that when dean was a baby she left to go hunting without telling her husband where she was going (which for some reason sam found perfectly ok). She learns that dean had no childhood and that he sacrificed everything for his brother and not once has she ever commiserated for the life he has led. The only concern she has shown is for sam and that was one line about whether he would forgive her which really is not about sam but rather making herself feel better. Then she has the gall to make a big deal about jack and what a good boy he is and how tough he has had it

[companionenvy]

I've started to lose my patience with Mary, and agree that it was, at best, phenomenally stupid of her not to do some research about how to get out of the deal sometime in those ten years. But,  I look at that, to some extent, as an example of handing her the Idiot Ball for plot reasons; though I suppose the show could have, and probably should have, done a flashback or thrown in a line that clarified that she had been looking, the writers still had to deal with the fact that she seemed totally unprepared in the Pilot, and of course if she had managed to succeed, there wouldn't have been any show. So I can kind of buy that the writers didn't feel the need to shoehorn in an explanation about Mary trying and failing, and just went with the denial route. 

What I have trouble understanding is the criticism of Mary for hunting at least once after Dean was born. First of all, I don't really see it as inconsistent - or, at least, not more inconsistent than we all are. People have conflicting desires, sometimes. So I think that teenage Mary might genuinely have resented the hunting life and wanted to get out, but also sometimes missed the purpose and excitement that hunting provided once she had actually left. Second, it wasn't necessarily a simple matter of Mary getting antsy and selfishly risking herself for a thrill. Mary, as one of the comparatively few people who knew the supernatural world existed, may have felt a legitimate sense of obligation when she caught wind of a case. Sam and even Dean have both at times expressed dissatisfaction with the hunting life and indicated what I think is a sincere desire to retire some day. But, not only -- as I just said of Mary - could I see them, even "retired," as wanting, now and then, to take on a  hunt for old times sake without being hypocrites, if they did hear of something that pinged their hunter radar, I really can't imagine them just saying "Eh, not my problem." Possibly, a retired Sam and Dean would keep enough connections to active hunters that they could send the case their way, but that wouldn't always be feasible, and a retired Mary trying to live a normal life on the DL is more likely to have cut those ties.

If Mary acted at least in part out of a sense of obligation, I'm really not sure how that makes her worse than any RL mom with a dangerous job. There are mothers who work as cops or serve in the military, and most people don't believe that makes them awful mothers.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

If Mary acted at least in part out of a sense of obligation, I'm really not sure how that makes her worse than any RL mom with a dangerous job. There are mothers who work as cops or serve in the military, and most people don't believe that makes them awful mothers.

I agree with this. I didn't really have a problem with Mary hunting once or twice again either. My frustration with Mary was her not preparing for the likely danger and not warning John in some way either when the time came. It would have been an extremely difficult thing to have to do, but again it was something that should have been done, in my opinion, rather than her just hoping that maybe it would all just go away.

6 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

It's not about the cooking, it's about the effort.

I don't disagree here. Some effort would have been nice.

6 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

*Baking is different, it's like meditation for me almost.

Heh... whereas I'm the opposite. While I do enjoy baking some things - usually easy things like cookies and brownies and muffins and such - I find baking less "forgiving" than cooking. With cooking, I can experiment more and use my instincts. Not so much with baking which often requires more precise measurements. I'm actually pretty decent with cooking, but baking anything more complex - like yeast breads or cakes from scratch***... not my forte.

*** except coffee cakes... but then again, I use a whole wheat baking mix (Bob's Red Mill), so that's actually cheating. I also make a pretty decent pie, but good gravy it takes me forever, since I insist on a from scratch crust. Needless to say my pies are a rare treat rather than the norm.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

What I have trouble understanding is the criticism of Mary for hunting at least once after Dean was born. First of all, I don't really see it as inconsistent - or, at least, not more inconsistent than we all are. People have conflicting desires, sometimes

I don't really see Mary's desire as conflicting.  From what we saw she was like Sam in that she didn't want to be in the life anymore.  She wanted out.  Then her parents were killed.  So I can see her blaming the life for her parents being killed.

Then when she saw that one of the cases she might have left hanging she ran off to take care of it.   But she took no precautions to protect herself from the yellow eyed demon.   Why did she stick her head in the sand about the Supernatural when it came to her own family but she was suddenly gung ho to take care of a random hunt because strangers might be in danger. 

This is why I criticize Mary for hunting when Dean was born.  Because its just more the same behavior.  She'll make the effort for strangers but not for her own family.   At least that part is consistent.  From what I saw I don't think it was conflicting desires to hunt and have a family, it was so more she realized she didn't want to be a wife and a mother so she ran back to her old life.  I remain convinced that if she hadn't been killed she would have eventually just walked away. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I've started to lose my patience with Mary, and agree that it was, at best, phenomenally stupid of her not to do some research about how to get out of the deal sometime in those ten years. But,  I look at that, to some extent, as an example of handing her the Idiot Ball for plot reasons; though I suppose the show could have, and probably should have, done a flashback or thrown in a line that clarified that she had been looking, the writers still had to deal with the fact that she seemed totally unprepared in the Pilot, and of course if she had managed to succeed, there wouldn't have been any show. So I can kind of buy that the writers didn't feel the need to shoehorn in an explanation about Mary trying and failing, and just went with the denial route. 

What I have trouble understanding is the criticism of Mary for hunting at least once after Dean was born. First of all, I don't really see it as inconsistent - or, at least, not more inconsistent than we all are. People have conflicting desires, sometimes. So I think that teenage Mary might genuinely have resented the hunting life and wanted to get out, but also sometimes missed the purpose and excitement that hunting provided once she had actually left. Second, it wasn't necessarily a simple matter of Mary getting antsy and selfishly risking herself for a thrill. Mary, as one of the comparatively few people who knew the supernatural world existed, may have felt a legitimate sense of obligation when she caught wind of a case. Sam and even Dean have both at times expressed dissatisfaction with the hunting life and indicated what I think is a sincere desire to retire some day. But, not only -- as I just said of Mary - could I see them, even "retired," as wanting, now and then, to take on a  hunt for old times sake without being hypocrites, if they did hear of something that pinged their hunter radar, I really can't imagine them just saying "Eh, not my problem." Possibly, a retired Sam and Dean would keep enough connections to active hunters that they could send the case their way, but that wouldn't always be feasible, and a retired Mary trying to live a normal life on the DL is more likely to have cut those ties.

If Mary acted at least in part out of a sense of obligation, I'm really not sure how that makes her worse than any RL mom with a dangerous job. There are mothers who work as cops or serve in the military, and most people don't believe that makes them awful mothers.

It's not that she was hunting, any more than it's that Dean expected her to stay in the bunker and cut the crusts off his sandwiches. It's the idea that she was still involved with, and connected to, the hunting world enough to travel to another country to finish a job and protect a kid, but made zero effort to protect her own family from her deal. The two things just don't jibe for me, and this is just one example of Dabb's monumental fail with the retconning of the character. Being a military mom or law enforcement isn't comparable, IMO. In those cases, everybody involved knows what's happening. 

The nonsense of her explaining Jack's vulnerability to Dean of all people is just more bad writing. And then having her choose another life over returning to her sons' world, after the ending of 12x22, is icing on the cake. There really isn't anything they could do to redeem the character for me now. 

[Katy M]

I don't have the hatred for Mary that some do, but I do have some problems that I think are retconning.

1. I wouldn't have had a problem with Mary doing a hunt or two after marriage, in the area.  But, Asa Fox, was quite explicit that she was in Canada.  Not exactly an hour or two away from Kansas.  And, she said that was unfinished business.  How exactly would she know that a werewolf she had previously hunted had ended up in a specific part of Canada, found someone to watch Dean, and come back, all without John knowing?

2. We know that John and Mary were struggling financially towards the beginning of their marriage. We saw that in The Song Remains the Same.  In light of that, it doesn't make much sense that she didn't learn how to cook.  Add to that, that we saw Deanna, who was an open hunter, cooking.  She didn't teach her daughter at least some rudimentary skills? Why not just make it that Mary doesn't really like to cook, instead of making it so that Dean was eating Piggly Wiggly meatloaf when he was a kid?

3.  She's the greatest hunter that ever lived.  Besides her post-marriage hunting, which I still have to believe wasn't super lots, she quit hunting at 19 or so.  She should have been, at most, the level of SAm season 1.  Competent, for sure, but not the best hunter that ever hunted.

What I don't have a problem with is Mary's, for lack of a better word, confusion about her relationship with her sons.  In her mind, they're babies, and then the next minute they are grown men. That seriously is a lot to take.  IRL, if she had been in a coma for 30 years, all three of them would have been in some pretty intense counselling to reconcile that.

[Pondlass1]

Humans are complex and a puzzle for sure and we can twist ourselves into knots trying to explain Mary's behaviour since being brought back by Amara.  But the bottom line - for me - is haphazard thoughtless writing and an actress that displays a cold distant demeamour a little too well.