S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[Boopsahoy]

I was rewatching today and noticed 2 things. On a funny note, after the conversation about waitresses smelling like food, the waitress stands by Cas and he sniffs her! I didn't notice the first watch. My husband and I both cracked up. On a serious note-when Cas asks about what was stolen and Mary is almost going to 'fess up, Dean quickly says lets go home. Did he realize it was his Mom that was the thief? Was he giving her a pass or a way out?

I too think that there's going to be something with the Lance and Dean probably brought about by Crowley (Was it @Catrox14 that said it?) Too much of a coincidence that they brought up that same Micheal picture and the Lance.

[mertensia]

I thought this was an excellent episode, though I do want to shake Mary and ask her what the hell, lady?  

I liked that they finally explained how a crossroads demon ended up as the King of Hell. Also that Crowley had a concrete and true reason why Ramiel should spare the Winchesters.

My thought was that Dean took the pieces of the Lance because you don't just leaves pieces of powerful magic lying around.

[DittyDotDot]

I totally forgot about this, but why did they use holy fire to trap a demon? 

8 hours ago, SueB said:

I also meant to mention: I think Mary got the 'lead' on the attack at the demon house because the last time she found a hunt, Sam and Dean took over.  And Dean realized it was a mistake.  OTOH, as soon as they got to the barn, Mary gave up control. "What's the play?"  In fact, I think in the barn it was back to primarily Dean calling the shots.

I don't know if they thought it was a mistake back in The Foundry or if they saw her more as an equal now that she's been on her own for a while and it appeared other hunters were calling her for help--LIES, LIES, LIES! Plus, she called them and I think they didn't want to do anything to discourage her from doing that more often. 

8 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

wonder why the BMOL capitulated to Mary.  That guy could have followed her outside and taken the Colt from her, possibly killing her.  He considered his options and an apology sounded so rehearsed, I didn't believe it.  It satisfied Mary, though - did she see through it?  My question is, since Lady Milady's people seem to despise the Winchesters, what are they after?  Really, I mean?  They didn't even seem to appreciate the boys driving around America with an angel but they are making nice with Mary.  Why?

I think they want something more, but for now, Mary is their way into the hunting community in the U.S. No one would give them the time of day until Mary did. However, I too wonder what it is they're really after. I don't buy this "we're here to rid the US of monsters" shtick. There's got to be something else they're after. Was it just opportunity that they showed up just as all the big hitters (God, Amarra, The Steins) were taken care of?

[mertensia]

Maybe they want the stuff from the LoL, or the LoL itself.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I totally forgot about this, but why did they use holy fire to trap a demon? 

I never thought about it, but you're right.  How does that work?  Was this just a huge error on their part, or is there some explanation we're missing?  They've only ever used it on angels in the past, that I can remember.

[Wayward Son]

@DittyDotDot @MysteryGuest

I think, while it is primarily a weapon used against angels, demons have always been portrayed as vulnerable also. One example of this is that in Abandon All Hope Meg is in clear agony when Castiel pushes her into the flames, so he can use her to break the circle and then walk over her.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I never thought about it, but you're right.  How does that work?  Was this just a huge error on their part, or is there some explanation we're missing?  They've only ever used it on angels in the past, that I can remember.

It just dawned on me, could the Princes be angels--Lucifer loyalists--who fell when Lucifer got locked away? I mean, they didn't say that in the episode, but... . It would explain why they are so powerful. Hmm, I'll have to think on this.

[Aeryn13]

Ramiel said "angel" in a dismissive tone when he recognized what Cas was so I don`t think so. Lucifer didn`t stop being an angel or self-identifying as one after he fell. Granted, those dudes could feel differently but it would still strike me as an odd phrasing if one didn`t change species, like "uh, beings like me". And Cas would probably have known him as an angel also. 

And we didn`t get the burned wings shadow that signifies angelic deaths.  

Edited February 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Ramiel said "angel" in a dismissive tone when he recognized what Cas was so I don`t think so. Lucifer didn`t stop being an angel or self-identifying as one after he fell. Granted, those dudes could feel differently but it would still strike me as an odd phrasing if one didn`t change species, like "uh, beings like me". And Cas would probably have known him as an angel also. 

And we didn`t get the burned wings shadow that signifies angelic deaths.  

I wasn't very clear. I meant to say they were once angels and Lucifer turned them into something else. A hybrid of sorts. So, they wouldn't be angels anymore.

[DittyDotDot]

BTW, I just re-watched the episode and got a big kick out of Crowley's mic drop. You know, I've been wanting someone to stab him in his face for a while now, but I'm cool with him in this capacity. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I wasn't very clear. I meant to say they were once angels and Lucifer turned them into something else. A hybrid of sorts. So, they wouldn't be angels anymore.

I`m not sure he could do that. They could always make up something new but so far I think an angel would stay an angel. And with as much disdain as Lucifer had for his creation - he only seemed to create demons to stick it to Daddy "see, I can make a race too" - I`m not sure he`d sully an actual angel with it. But in that case, Cas still should have been like "oh you, you feel with Lucifer and look at you now". 

I`m not ruling out the possibility but right now it seems unlikely.

And in terms of power, Cain waved Castiel away like a bug and seemed immune to angelic powers. Eve was immune to angelic powers. So I can buy that this dude can go toe-to-toe with an angel. Alistair could as well if I remember correctly.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wasn't very clear. I meant to say they were once angels and Lucifer turned them into something else. A hybrid of sorts. So, they wouldn't be angels anymore.

I thought that they were demons, and demons are corrupted souls. But angels don't have souls.

In theory, I guess YEDs could be corrupted grace?

The idea is cool! But I think that that would be something very different from a demon (yellow-eyed or not).

Oh yeah, and I noticed the use of holy fire, too. But if holy water is so dangerous on demons, then I guess it makes sense that holy fire would be even more dangerous for them. Maybe the idea was that YEDs aren't that effected by holy water, because they're too powerful, but even they are effected by holy oil.

If holy oil is so strong that it can stop an archangel in its tracks, then it must be strong enough to stop any demon!

ETA:  is it "effected" or "affected"? I always confuse those two.

Edited February 18, 2017 by rue721
grammar crisis

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Oh yeah, and I noticed the use of holy fire, too. But if holy water is so dangerous on demons, then I guess it makes sense that holy fire would be even more dangerous for them. Maybe the idea was that YEDs aren't that effected by holy water, because they're too powerful, but even they are effected by holy oil.

If holy oil is so strong that it can stop an archangel in its tracks, then it must be strong enough to stop any demon!

The thing about holy oil is it's supposed to depower the angel like a devil's trap does to a demon. Yes, the fire will burn a demon, just like anything else, but it won't stop them from doing blowing out the fire or stepping through the ring, getting a little singed, but otherwise keeping them intact. Granted, they had nothing else in their arsenal that would truly trap Ramiel, so what the hell... .

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I thought that they were demons, and demons are corrupted souls. But angels don't have souls.

In theory, I guess YEDs could be corrupted grace?

The idea is cool! But I think that that would be something very different from a demon (yellow-eyed or not).

Well, sure, Yellow-Eyes was called the Yellow Eyed demon, but that doesn't mean he necessarily was a demon. I mean, I thought reapers were their own species until the show decided to make them literally angels of death. 

I guess it's just that I always found Uriel's position a very interesting one and have been surprised the show hadn't tapped into the lore of angels who were cast out of heaven with Lucifer. It would've gotten daddy's attention for sure if he not only twisted a human soul, but also mutated some angels. Plus, it would also make sense why Heaven was so voraciously hunting the Princes. 

I don't know if it actually makes sense or not, but something I thought had potential.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Maybe they want the stuff from the LoL, or the LoL itself.

They could've done that in the decades the bunker sat empty or when Lady Toni waltzed right in last season, though. 

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

The thing about holy oil is it's supposed to depower the angel like a devil's trap does to a demon. Yes, the fire will burn a demon, just like anything else, but it won't stop them from doing blowing out the fire or stepping through the ring, getting a little singed, but otherwise keeping them intact. Granted, they had nothing else in their arsenal that would truly trap Ramiel, so what the hell...

But maybe they wouldn't just get a little singed, maybe they would explode into a ball of flames or get roasted alive or something. I mean, holy water burns most demons pretty badly already. Maybe holy oil would be a like a gigantic grease fire to them, to the point that it would be painful or dangerous even to very strong demons like Ramiel.

I did think the holy fire thing was odd in this episode, but I think there are reasonably plausible fanwanks for it, so it doesn't feel like a "fail" to me. YMMV.

I also kind of like the idea that holy fire traps demons, because it makes some sense of all that "burn in hell" and "lake of fire" etc imagery that hasn't been that prevalent on the show but that is pretty popular/well-known in real life. ETA:  as in, the flames literally trap the demons down there.

Anyway, I think the idea of fallen angels aside from Lucifer is cool....but I think that earlier in the show, they made it pretty clear that YED was actually a demon, and not just some other hell creature. So I think for the YEDs in particular, the show needs to stick to the idea that they're actual demons. Albeit maybe special/"old" demons.

As a sidenote, it's so strange to me that on supernatural shows like this, older tends to mean stronger. You'd think it would mean weaker (and maybe mellower). The idea of something growing stronger and stronger forever seems like it goes against how the actual world (or actual time) works. YMMV. It puts a different spin on all those "Dean is old!" jokes, though LOL.

Edited February 18, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But maybe they wouldn't just get a little singed, maybe they would explode into a ball of flames or get roasted alive or something. I mean, holy water burns most demons pretty badly already. Maybe holy oil would be a like a gigantic grease fire to them, to the point that it would be painful or dangerous even to very strong demons like Ramiel.

Judging by it only singeing Meg, I always understood it didn't really do much to harm demons and it would be pointless to put a ring of it around one because they can just blow out the fire...like Crowley did a few times. If Ramiel hadn't been such a powerful demon, it really wouldn't have jumped out to me, but since much less powerful demons have simply stepped right through it in the past... .

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Judging by it only singeing Meg, I always understood it didn't really do much to harm demons and it would be pointless to put a ring of it around one because they can just blow out the fire...like Crowley did a few times. If Ramiel hadn't been such a powerful demon, it really wouldn't have jumped out to me, but since much less powerful demons have simply stepped right through it in the past... .

Did Crowley blow out the fire?  I don't remember.  I know Metatron did, but that was (supposedly) because he'd rewritten the scenario on God's typewriter in advance so he wouldn't be trapped.  The only angel we saw get burned with holy oil (as opposed to being all sulky at being trapped) was Adam/Michael, when he was Molotov'd (and he came back in a few minutes looking pretty un-singed), though Sam did threaten to deep-fry Balthazar.  I don't remember them ever trying to use holy oil on any demons before, I assume because (a) it was supposedly so rare and hard to get; and (b) because they just assumed it wouldn't work.  

About the question if Ramiel was really an angel...well, he said the Michael lance destroyed demons immediately and made angels suffer for a long time, and (IIRC) when stabbed, he *immediately* went up in a puff of black smoke.  

51 minutes ago, rue721 said:

As a sidenote, it's so strange to me that on supernatural shows like this, older tends to mean stronger. You'd think it would mean weaker (and maybe mellower). The idea of something growing stronger and stronger forever seems like it goes against how the actual world (or actual time) works.

I think in this case "older" means closer to the original source (like lycanthropes being "purer" when they're closer to the alpha) so they're stronger.  The more generations away from the First, the more dilute the power, like copies of copies of copies.  JMO.  

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Did Crowley blow out the fire?  I don't remember.

Yep. In S6 he squelched the fire to let Cass out. And, I think there may have been another instance, but I can't quite see the episode clearly yet.

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

About the question if Ramiel was really an angel...well, he said the Michael lance destroyed demons immediately and made angels suffer for a long time, and (IIRC) when stabbed, he *immediately* went up in a puff of black smoke.  

Again, I wasn't suggesting Ramiel was an angel anymore, as I said, it could be Lucifer twisted him into something other. Mr. Ketch said they didn't know what he was, just that he had the thing...

Demon could just be shorthand for tainted by the Devil? It would not be unprecedented for the show to do this, IMO.

Edited February 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Again, I wasn't suggesting Ramiel was an angel anymore, as I said, it could be Lucifer twisted him into something other. Demon could just be shorthand for tainted by the Devil? It would not be unprecedented for the show to do this, IMO.

Sorry...I was playing catch-up this morning with a whole load of posts from yesterday, and I might have missed (or forgotten) a few.

Edited February 18, 2017 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

Quote

As a sidenote, it's so strange to me that on supernatural shows like this, older tends to mean stronger.

It`s a pretty common lore for supernatural beings. Of course exceptional strength usually only starts to come in with at least a century of age, preferably a lot more. Since the supernatural powers don`t deplete with age, I always thought it is a mixture of accumulating a shit ton of knowledge and experience and basically standing the test of time. That is, if you can make it through eons of strife and hardship. In a way the Anti-Darwin-Award, survival of the fittest and all.

If Dean had kept the Mark of Cain and made it to a thousand years or so, he likely would have gotten a massive power level upgrade as well.

[rue721]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Demon could just be shorthand for tainted by the Devil? It would not be unprecedented for the show to do this, IMO.

They specifically told us that demons are former human souls.

I think the idea of angel grace being corrupted into some kind of hell creature is great, but I think that lumping whatever those creatures would be in with demons would be a retcon, and a pretty major one. JMV.

I also am not sure that grace *can* be corrupted. Even Lucifer still has regular grace and is a regular angel, anatomically, AFAIK.

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

It`s a pretty common lore for supernatural beings.

Yes I know, that's why I wrote the exact sentence that you quoted:

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

it's so strange to me that on supernatural shows like this, older tends to mean stronger.

I still think it's strange and, to be frank, ridiculous. Why older = stronger ever got so much traction as an assumption on these fantasy shows/stories, I don't know. It's totally unlike how life actually works. Unfortunately.

Lily Sunder was one of the few exceptions to that trope, and it made more sense -- and made her story more interesting/poignant/grounded -- that time and experience depleted her rather than strengthened her IMO.

[Katy M]

42 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Did Crowley blow out the fire?  

Crowley blew the fire out, but he was outside of the ring.  We've also seen demons destroy devil's traps from outside.  I'm not too bothered by them using holy oil either because it works on demons or doesn't.  Angel blades kill demons also.  So, I guess I'm just saying some stuff has multi-monster use.  On the other hand, if it was useless against demons, I don't think they've ever used it on a demon before, so it might have been like, we don't have time to draw a devil's trap.  He's coming.  Let's try a holy oil circle

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think the idea of angel grace being corrupted into some kind of hell creature is great, but I think that lumping whatever those creatures would be in with demons would be a retcon, and a pretty major one. JMV.

I also am not sure that grace *can* be corrupted. Even Lucifer still has regular grace and is a regular angel, anatomically, AFAIK.

I don't think grace can be corrupted either, that's you're theory, not mine.

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I still think it's strange and, to be frank, ridiculous. Why older = stronger ever got so much traction as an assumption on these fantasy shows/stories, I don't know. It's totally unlike how life actually works. Unfortunately.

Is it really unlike how life works though? I mean, when you're a child your body is smaller and weaker and you have less knowledge to help you do stuff then when you grow into an adult. Even elderly folk are more "powerful" than children. It could be that these old supernatural beings are not necessarily elderly, but just adult?

Edited February 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not too bothered by them using holy oil either because it works on demons or doesn't.  Angel blades kill demons also.  So, I guess I'm just saying some stuff has multi-monster use.  On the other hand, if it was useless against demons, I don't think they've ever used it on a demon before, so it might have been like, we don't have time to draw a devil's trap.  He's coming.  Let's try a holy oil circle

I understood why they didn't try a devil's trap; they already tried that and it failed. So, yeah, like I said, they didn't have anything else in their arsenal that would actually trap Ramiel, so what the hell... .

Goodness, gracious people, I'm not in any way saying it was a major fail for the episode or even that it bothered me that they used it, it was just something I noticed and was mentioning it. But then it led me to wonder about other things. I really don't care about the holy oil nor does it particularly bother me.

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is it really unlike how life works though? I mean, when you're a child your body is smaller and weaker and you have less knowledge to help you do stuff then when you grow into an adult. Even elderly folk are more "powerful" than children. It could be that these old supernatural beings are not necessarily elderly, but just adult?

I see this as an age versus evolution debate almost.  Would newer demons, vampires, werewolves, etc, be stronger because they have evolved into something more?  Or would a really ancient being be stronger because they have lived and learned, developed skills and absorbed, etc.

[auntvi]

34 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I mean, when you're a child your body is smaller and weaker and you have less knowledge to help you do stuff then when you grow into an adult. Even elderly folk are more "powerful" than children. It could be that these old supernatural beings are not necessarily elderly, but just adult?

In many vampire stories older = stronger (of course their bodies don't get any older). As you said the greater the knowledge and experience, the greater the power.

[rue721]

29 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think grace can be corrupted either, that's you're theory, not mine.

Then I don't understand what your theory is. You were saying that maybe they started out as angels, but then were "tainted by the Devil" and became [???]. If they were (originally) angels rather than humans, then I would think that what would have been "tainted" by the Devil would have been their grace rather than their souls. If now you're saying that you don't think it was their grace that was tainted by the devil, then what do you think was? How would that corruption have occurred if you think that their grace can't be corrupted?

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is it really unlike how life works though? I mean, when you're a child your body is smaller and weaker and you have less knowledge to help you do stuff then when you grow into an adult. Even elderly folk are more "powerful" than children. It could be that these old supernatural beings are not necessarily elderly, but just adult?

Time wears away at literally everything and everyone. Even rock is worn away by time. Since these beings are immortal then yes, I can understand time wearing away at them differently than it does on mortal things.

But to say that it doesn't wear away at them at all? And in fact strengthens them? No, I don't think that anything in life works that way.

Even children are worn away by time to become adults. They get physically bigger but they also lose their innocence. Cue Nirvana's "Half the Man I Used to Be" here ;)

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I see this as an age versus evolution debate almost.  Would newer demons, vampires, werewolves, etc, be stronger because they have evolved into something more?  Or would a really ancient being be stronger because they have lived and learned, developed skills and absorbed, etc.

There's that, too. I don't see why a prototype would be "better" than a Version 2.0. I mean, it could be. But I think that more often, Version 2.0 would be "better."

Or at least Version 2.0 would have its time in the sun (as the prototype withers), if nothing else.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

There's that, too. I don't see why a prototype would be "better" than a Version 2.0. I mean, it could be. But I think that more often, Version 2.0 would be "better."

On the other hand, how many times have companies "improved" their products, websites, etc, only to have people (or at least me) say "the old one was better." OK, maybe it is just me.  Wait, New Coke, anyone? 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I still think it's strange and, to be frank, ridiculous. Why older = stronger ever got so much traction as an assumption on these fantasy shows/stories, I don't know. It's totally unlike how life actually works. Unfortunately.

Lily Sunder was one of the few exceptions to that trope, and it made more sense -- and made her story more interesting/poignant/grounded -- that time and experience depleted her rather than strengthened her IMO.

I think it makes sense in diversifying the supernatural from the natural some more. Humans work one way, "other" beings work the other. I can buy that. That said, even in this show it only seem to work for "immortal" beings and there aren`t too many around of those. Angels, demons, vampires, the Pagan Gods, the monster Alphas, Leviathans? Lots of monster species seem to have rather normal life spans and procreation so they never really power up with age to begin with. 

Lily Sunder IMO depleted her strength because she was powering her magic with her own soul, which is a finite amount to begin with. So the more you use it up, the more it is gone. 

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But to say that it doesn't wear away at them at all? And in fact strengthens them? No, I don't think that anything in life works that way.

I don't think it's been suggested that time doesn't wear away at them at all, or that it's time that strengthens them. I think it's that they've grown up, collected knowledge and honed their skills so that any wearing away time does is negligible.

To me, Ramiel was extremely powerful because he was turned by Lucifer himself. That power would've trumped Crowley even back when he first was made. I'm sure his original power has been eroded away by time, but he also has a whole lot of knowledge and experience that helps compensate for that power loss. 

29 minutes ago, rue721 said:

There's that, too. I don't see why a prototype would be "better" than a Version 2.0. I mean, it could be. But I think that more often, Version 2.0 would be "better."

Or at least Version 2.0 would have its time in the sun (as the prototype withers), if nothing else.

Is a new "monster" really like a new model vacuum cleaner, though? I mean a newly formed vampire is still the same basic model, just younger and without experience of how to be a vampire. 

Look at it this way, would you want to go into battle with a kid just out of boot camp or a seasoned soldier with battle experience under his belt; even if that kid was faster and stronger? 

Although, in Supernatural's case, I'd go with Crowley over an older demon almost every time. Crowley is a master survivor and at least knows not to underestimate those Winchesters. ;)

[catrox14]

When I really dislike an episode and it doesn't  entirely offend me like Man's Best Friend with Benefits or bore me to tears like Bloodlines, I give it at least a 2nd or 3rd watch to see if my opinion changes or I can at least more specifically identify why I so dislike an episode. To that end,  I've watched this episode 5 times now because I was bothered that my first reaction was really disliking it and being puzzled by Dean's interactions with Cas in the episode.

I think Dean pinged that Mary was up to something in the diner but put it to the side and further pinged that she was the person that stole something during the holy fire confrontation. At the end when Cas was questioning  what Ramiel was talking about with someone trying to steal something from him, Mary started to answer and Dean jumped in with "Who knows what that crazy guy was talking about.  Let's go home" which reminded me of when Dean would try and deflect Sam from learning about Gadreel. So I think Dean was both scared to death for Cas' status and feeling guilty and responsible for not calling Mary out on her shenanigans because it all went sideways  and nearly got Cas killed. I'm saying that Dean was dealing with a lot of shit and trying to protect Mary.

I think maybe some of what is perceived as Dean being reserved or lackadaisical or not as emotional as he might have been about Cas' wounding was a combination of shock that Cas was dying when Cas has never been that close to dying and some of his own guilt that his protection of Mary's shenanigans might have resulted in Cas' demise. That guilt was compounded by Cas' declarations of love for him, Sam and Mary.

 

That said, I'm still feeling ominous because of that darn song at the end of Regarding Dean.

Quote

No broomstick gun they'll hand you;
No longer you'll pretend.
You'll call some man your enemy;
You used to call him 'friend. '
And when the rockets thunder,
You'll hear your brothers cry.
And through it all you'll wonder
Just why they had to die.

 

Some things that don't make sense upon rewatch is the first encounter with Ramiel.

When Dean learned that a demon was in play and they had no idea it was a super demon, why did Dean bother with devil's trap bullets in the first place? I mean they've used them like twice with Abaddon and Crowley, but they never used them for demon!Dean or other random demons...so I side-eye that quite a bit. 

They never even tried to exorcise him once he stepped into the room so seems to me the kill was the goal yet Dean doesn't try to shoot him in the head with a devil's trap bullet?  Seems to me Dean would have thought the demon was a  Knight of Hell or maybe even consider he had the Mark of Cain once he saw he couldn't be felled by devil's trap bullets or the demon knife?  

I'm trying to figure out the point of the confrontation in the barn with Ramiel other than a scene for the sake of a scene to show the power of the Michael Lance.  Dean knows that using Holy Oil to take out a super powered demon is pointless.  That scene would make sense if they had revealed that a Prince of Hell was a different species like an actual demon/angel hybrid maybe even the offspring of Lucifer and Lilith.  But for a super powered demon it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference so why bother? 

If Mary had confessed that she had the Colt from the get go they could have shot Ramiel with the Colt.

Edited February 18, 2017 by catrox14
left out an entire paragraph

[Demented Daisy]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

I totally forgot about this, but why did they use holy fire to trap a demon? 

*snip* 

Don't forget a demon once immolated with holy oil.  Was he protesting Crowley's reign?  I can't remember.

[rue721]

36 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Look at it this way, would you want to go into battle with a kid just out of boot camp or a seasoned soldier with battle experience under his belt; even if that kid was faster and stronger? 

Well it depends. Experience doesn't just teach you skills. It also teaches you fear, caution, conventionality, etc. A younger kid is likely to be more fearless, more aggressive, and is likely to be more willing fight dirty too (if only because he knows no other way). And that kind of bold, desperate, chaotic attack could do you in well before the elder's careful and well-founded tactics do.

I do think that that comes into play with Ramiel. Maybe he had the skills of an old man, but he had the spirit of an old man, too. He was arrogant and slow on the draw. He kept saying he was tired out and just didn't want to be bothered.

Honestly, it does make me wonder why the BMOL wanted Mary to poke the bear. It seemed like Ramiel would have been content to just spend the rest of eternity puttering around and turning to dust. And the Colt is cool and all, but not that useful nowadays considering the rest of the arsenal all these people have at their disposal. I mean, it's not as useful as the lance, for example.

On the one hand, I don't care what the BMOL are up to, because ~shadowy conspiracies~ are just not my thing. They're obviously bad news, based on the murders (I'm thinking of Magda in particular) and torturing alone, and that's really all I need to know.

On the other hand, I almost wonder if they WANT some kind of apocalypse and are trying to instigate one. They were outright distracting Sam (et al) while the sun was dying and Dean was attempting one last-ditch effort to save the world, and they have never offered to help avert any of these other apocalypses, either.

My best guess, based on this episode, is that they want Lucifer's baby, so they can turn it into a weapon, so they've got Kelly Kline with them (which is why nobody can find her) -- and they're keeping the Winchesters distracted with foolish missions that stir up lots of old feelings and enmities (like with THE YED, considering they were getting them to poke at another YED) so that they can't make trouble for them.

Edited February 18, 2017 by rue721

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Dean pinged that Mary was up to something in the diner but put it to the side and further pinged that she was the person that stole something during the holy fire confrontation. At the end when Cas was questioning  what Ramiel was talking about with someone trying to steal something from him, Mary started to answer and Dean jumped in with "Who knows what that crazy guy was talking about.  Let's go home" which reminded me of when Dean would try and deflect Sam from learning about Gadreel. So I think Dean was both scared to death for Cas' status and feeling guilty and responsible for not calling Mary out on her shenanigans because it all went sideways  and nearly got Cas killed. I'm saying that Dean was dealing with a lot of shit and trying to protect Mary.

I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, because I thought maybe Dean was trying to cut off her answer, though I'm not 100% convinced of that.  However, if he did suspect that she took something, wouldn't he have gotten her alone, or alone with Sam, and confronted her ASAP.  Dean, like everyone ever, does not like to be kept in the dark.

 

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

My best guess, based on this episode, is that they want Lucifer's baby, so they can turn it into a weapon, so they've got Kelly Kline with them (which is why nobody can find her) -- and they're keeping the Winchesters distracted with foolish missions that stir up lots of old feelings and enmities (like with THE YED, considering they were getting them to poke at another YED) so that they can't make trouble for them.

Interesting.  But, I think they're too anti-everything supernatural to want to do that.  Plus, they're cocky and think they can just take care of everything easily. 

[catrox14]

 Re the Holy Oil. It's a clunky retcon that technically works because of the demon that immolated himself with it but IMO it makes the boys and Cas look stupid for never having thought to use Holy Oil, when they've had it at their disposal for 8 years.  I mean wouldn't Cas have had some idea that holy oil would work against demons but he doesn't tell the boys?  And given they've fought the Leviathan,  Abaddon and Cain which were the baddest of the bad non-Lucifer division but it didn't occur to them to even try it? Bleh, bad retcon is bad IMO

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, I think they're too anti-everything supernatural to want to do that.  Plus, they're cocky and think they can just take care of everything easily. 

True. Maybe they just want to experiment on the baby. This is making me think of the little boy that Toni was raising. Back when she was introduced, I was thinking that maybe he was part monster. But maybe he's actually part angel or something.

The BMOL are scummy and fascist enough that it wouldn't shock me if they were into human experimentation or genetic experimentation js.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Well it depends. Experience doesn't just teach you skills. It also teaches you fear, caution, conventionality, etc. A younger kid is likely to be more fearless, more aggressive, and is likely to be more willing fight dirty too (if only because he knows no other way). And that kind of bold, desperate, chaotic attack could do you in well before the elder's careful and well-founded tactics do.

It's also likely the inexperienced won't have a clue what to do in the face of a real fight too.

Experience can teach fear, caution or conventionality, but it also gives you instincts and sometimes makes one more willing to take chances.

I mean, look at the contrast between Wally and the Winchesters in this episode. Wally was new and obviously smart and capable, but his inexperience is essentially what got him dead. If Wally had a bit more experience he might have picked up that this demon was more than your typical demon. And, he might've also figured out that Mary's interest in the demon wasn't all that pure. 

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

My best guess, based on this episode, is that they want Lucifer's baby, so they can turn it into a weapon, so they've got Kelly Kline with them (which is why nobody can find her)

I think the sister Prince of Hell (sorry can't recall her name right now) might have Kelly stowed away somewhere. Ramiel said she had taken an interest, so I assumed... . But, you know what happens when one assumes, right? ;)

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, because I thought maybe Dean was trying to cut off her answer, though I'm not 100% convinced of that.  However, if he did suspect that she took something, wouldn't he have gotten her alone, or alone with Sam, and confronted her ASAP.  Dean, like everyone ever, does not like to be kept in the dark

Not necessarily if he's trying to give her benefit of doubt and trust her.  Or he just doesn't want to believe she would be lying to them or that she would risk her children's lives by not saying anything.

My other SWAG  is that he knew all along and was in cahoots with Mary but didn't expect Crowley to show up nor that Cas would nearly end up dead. But I'm not really convinced of that. 

[Mick Lady]

20 hours ago, rue721 said:

In any case, Crowley said that being loved was important to him (back when Sam was curing him), and I figure that's the truth. So IMO if he thought that Cas was telling him he loved him like family, that actually would be pretty likely to mean something to him.

Wow Rue, I had forgotten that, and I think you've made a great point! Can't wait to run this one by Mick!

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My other SWAG  is that he knew all along and was in cahoots with Mary but didn't expect Crowley to show up nor that Cas would nearly end up dead.

That I am going to say I don't believe:)  I could go with you on Dean not wanting to believe Mary is lying or hiding something and just not want to admit it to himself, basically, so he's not going to ask.  Ignorance is bliss.

[catrox14]

20 hours ago, rue721 said:

Was Crowley in the room while Cas was saying his goodbyes, and said that he loved "you, all of you"? Because if so, then I think that that's why Crowley did it

Crowley wasn't in the room when Cas made his love declarations.  Dean had just finished shouting at him to put up or shut up and he buzzed out.

So yeah, I don't think Crowley did it because he thought Cas was including him as family. And even if he though Cas meant him that's kind of delusional even for Crowley because Cas and Crowley are frienemies at best. 

[bearcatfan]

16 hours ago, SueB said:

I think they didn't fully appreciate the 'level' that the Winchesters play at.  They knew about the Apocalypse and the Sun not dying... but their data seems hit and miss.  They were taken aback by the whole semi-blase 'when we put Lucifer back in the cage a couple of months ago' and acknowledged having helped the Winchesters was useful for their campaign.  

If any other hunters had been brought in to do this job, they would be dead. As Crowley stated a few episodes back, things that try to kill the Winchesters wind up dead. I'm not sure the BMoL understand. Mr. Ketch may be beginning to after hearing Mary's story. That is likely why he did capitulate. They brought a freaking Prince of Hell, and did so without a great plan in place. The winged it and won. Pretty damn impressive.

I do think that Dean realizes that Mary is the one that stole something from Ramiel. I don't know if he knew something was up at the diner but it's possible. He may not have known what it was, which is why he didn't confront her.

Mary is working with the BMoL but I don't think she trusts them. If you recall, she never answered when Wally asked. She deflected.

[Mick Lady]

23 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This.  This right here.  I thought for sure at the end she was going to say, 'Nope, I think I'll keep it.'  Or lie and say she didn't get it because of Ramiel.  And even after she knew about what it was (because she father told her stories about it) I just cannot fathom that she so easily handed it over. 

THIS! Bothered the hell out of me. She should have lied and gave it to her sons. She knew how important it was.

[Mick Lady]

19 hours ago, rue721 said:

What really bothers me about Mary is that she's working with the BMOL. She *saw* a BMOL agent torturing Sam. Even if she cares nothing for Sam as her son, she knows he's a good person, and that torturing him was wrong. How can she work for an organization that does things like that? Does she have no scruples?

What I don't get Rue, is why is she working for them?! Do they have something on her? Was this ever explained, I'm I having a brain fart here?

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

What I don't get Rue, is why is she working for them?! Do they have something on her? Was this ever explained, I'm I having a brain fart here?

I think she was lured into their propaganda that they would rid the world of monsters. I think it's another Winchester doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. She wants a safe world for everyone and a world where she and her boys don't have to hunt anymore.

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

What I don't get Rue, is why is she working for them?! Do they have something on her? Was this ever explained, I'm I having a brain fart here?

I wish they had something on her.  I could deal with this so much better if they were threatening her with something.

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Well it depends. Experience doesn't just teach you skills. It also teaches you fear, caution, conventionality, etc. A younger kid is likely to be more fearless, more aggressive, and is likely to be more willing fight dirty too (if only because he knows no other way). And that kind of bold, desperate, chaotic attack could do you in well before the elder's careful and well-founded tactics do.

Mick, an old military man says "Age and treachery will always win out over youth and skill" I agree.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I wish they had something on her.  I could deal with this so much better if they were threatening her with something.

I don't see what they could have on her other than threatening to take the lives of Sam and Dean. Even if she had another secret child by someone else when she was married to John, I don't think the boys would hate her very long if at all given Adam. And even then  I don't think it's worse  than her deal with Azazel. Nor do I think the boys would think so either.

SWAG:  Maybe the BMoL  promised her a way to undo her deal with Azazel so that he never comes for Sam, or maybe that they told her they can send her back in time to kill Azazel before she can make a deal so she has to do XYZ to make it happen.

I don't see how she could think she would ever have enough time on the planet to rid the US of all it's monsters. I mean I'm sure there are new vampires, ghouls, and ghosts being made every day. And the US is a lot bigger than the UK which thus far is why they can claim to have no issues. (which might be a lie anyway). 

Edited February 18, 2017 by catrox14

[KirkB]

I could be wrong but I think the idea is not that older supernatural creatures get more powerful, so much as it is they don't LOSE any. No matter how well we live our lives we as humans will get older, becoming infirm in body and mind, and eventually die. Vampires, demons, they don't age, they don't get any weaker or lose strength or brain cells. So if a demon is created already powerful (like say Cain) then a hundred or five thousand years later he will be at the same level of power as he was in the beginning, with the addition of millennia of knowledge, experience, and perhaps magical enhancement. The Princes were immensely powerful in the first place and so Ramiel still was.

Edited February 18, 2017 by KirkB

[MysteryGuest]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Granted, they had nothing else in their arsenal that would truly trap Ramiel, so what the hell... .

I think this is our answer about the holy oil right here.  Dean said "we're going to throw everything we have at him" when asked by Mary what their plan was.  They'd already tried the demon knife, the devil's trap, and the special bullets, and none of that worked.  That left them with the holy oil, angel blade and magic knuckles.  The holy oil wouldn't act as a force field like it does for an angel, but it would theoretically burn if he tried to get out, which would at least slow him down while they tried something else.  I'm guessing that by that point, they probably felt their odds of surviving weren't very high, so they had nothing to lose.  Had it not been for the spear, he'd have killed them all.