S34: James "J.T." Thomas, Jr.

[KimberStormer]

36 minutes ago, Vyk said:

Uh . . . Jeremy Collins?

Did Jeremy not get any votes?  I'd forgotten.

5 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

But it was his final words in HvV that were enough to convince me that JT has a problem with women.

Yeah, awful, nonsensical, and then he went on to be a terrible juror (which IMO is part of the game, so being a good juror is part of being a good player, if you've ended up on the jury.)  Totally sexist and gross!

[Vyk]

1 minute ago, KimberStormer said:

Did Jeremy not get any votes?  I'd forgotten.

Just at F6, when he played his idol.  Since the three votes didn't count, his game is still considered perfect.

[KimberStormer]

Ah yes that makes sense.

[Rachel RSL]

I still have the old TWoP recap saved from when JT was voted out during HvV and the last few paragaphs not only remind us of how awesome Parvati is, I think they perfectly sum up exactly how JT feels about women.

Quote

.Probst returns with the urn and asks if anyone wants to play an idol. Rupert looks at Parvati expectantly, and sure enough, she sits up with a "you know what, Jeff?" J.T. looks panicked. Rupert looks satisfied. Amanda looks blank. Parvati continues: "I think it would be downright depressing to sit and watch green bananas turn yellow without my debaucherous little Villains. So ... " and here is where it gets even MORE AWESOME than it was before and you realize how and why Parvati won this game before. She pulls one idol out of her bag and hands it to SANDRA, who grins and says "get outta here! For real?" The Heroes grin, too, because though they made a mistake trusting Li'l Russell, it ended up okay for them because Parvati gave the idol to the wrong Villain.

BUT THEN! Parvati isn't done. "And Jeff," she says; "I would just like to increase our odds." She reaches back into the bag and pulls out her second idol, handing it to JERRI. "Damn it," J.T. says. HAHAHAHA! It's a known fact that he gave Li'l Russell an idol that just took him out of this game and it's a known fact that Parvati is amazing. Sandra and Jerri hand Probst their idols, seemingly shocked at this turn of events. And grinning their asses off, don't forget. Probst proclaims that the idols are real and any votes against Sandra and Jerri will not count. The Heroes know they are well and truly fucked. "I knew we shouldn't have trusted that [BLEEP]," Rupert says, because it's never too early to say I told you so. Probst reads off the first vote: Jerri. Jerri has never felt so relieved in her life. Parvati too, I think, because now she knows for sure that giving the idols away was her smartest move. And it really was smart. From stepping off that pole and giving Danielle immunity to handing immunity to Sandra and Jerri, she had this entire game figured out this week and basically made her entire tribe immune. She knew the Heroes wouldn't vote out Li'l Russell and she was sure enough, based on Amanda's dumbassness, that they weren't voting for her, either. Giving immunity away is always a dumb move, but in this case, it really helped her. Now she might have Sandra's loyalty because she gave her that idol. And her tribe is the majority. All five votes for Jerri don't count. The sixth vote is for J.T., and he knows he's done. He gives Li'l Russell a "well done" and shakes his hand even though the person who really played this whole thing out was Parvati. But she's a woman and a pariah, so he says nothing to her. As he says his good-byes to his tribe, Li'l Russell mutters to Parvati "you have some explaining to do." "Secret!" she shrugs. Quit trying to ruin her moment, Li'l Russell.

J.T. bids his tribe adieu with a "good luck, fellas," which tells you pretty much everything you need to know about how much he dislikes and doesn't trust women. But just in case you weren't absolutely sure, he ends his good-bye speech with "don't ever trust [villains]. Worse than that, don't ever trust women. Ever, ever, ever." Hey, dumbass! Li'l Russell (A MAN) betrayed you, which you gave him a free pass to do because you were so scared of a women's alliance that never even happened! If only you'd listened to Sandra (A WOMAN), the only Villain who told your tribe the truth, this might not have happened to you. But I'm really glad it did.

[peachmangosteen]

Ah, yes, JT truly is kinda awful. I'm reminded of why I never liked him. And I do think he's one of the worst players to ever win. But still, this move wasn't as awful as it's being made out to be imo. 

[Rachel RSL]

You don't think so? He gave away an idol to someone he'd literally never even met before based solely on the fact that he was the only one on the other tribe who had a penis. And then he got voted out with his own idol. Bonehead!

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

You don't think so? He gave away an idol to someone he'd literally never even met before based solely on the fact that he was the only one on the other tribe who had a penis. And then he got voted out with his own idol. Bonehead!

That was a far worse move then this move imo. 

Hearing more from Malcom about what went down though does make JT look even worse. Although that's coming from Malcom, so it's not exactly a completely accurate account of what went down.

I for one am glad that JT did this because it probably guarantees he will go soon, which pleases me because I don't want to see him go full misogynist yet again and because I want Sandra to keep her record!

Edited March 24, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Rachel RSL]

40 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

That was a far worse move then this move imo. 

Oh, ha, sorry. I thought that was the move you were referring to.

[azshadowwalker]

Bringing over from Caleb's thread. 

Quote

To be fair to JT, that was when Hantz was still an unknown quantity to veteran Survivors.  I'm sure he wouldn't be taken in now.

Let's see. JT started that season saying he didn't want to play like a hero. He decides to hitch himself to a villain he may not know, but he sure as hell knows he's on the Villains tribe. Someone who can deduce from the evidence in front of him might suspect  that the dude probably did something to get classified that way. So, just maybe giving him a bunch of information and writing a love note could backfire. Of course, as we just saw in this season, JT isn't very quick on the uptake. So, he throws in with the guy labeled "villain", and gets bitten in the ass. How could he ever predict that? 

Edited March 25, 2017 by azshadowwalker

[SVNBob]

27 minutes ago, azshadowwalker said:

So, just maybe giving him a bunch of information and writing a love note could backfire. Of course, as we just saw in this season, JT isn't very quick on the uptake. So, he throws in with the guy labeled "villain", and gets bitten in the ass.

Here's the thing.  I'll go on the record (alongside @KimberStormer, I imagine) in saying that JT's Idol Pass play was actually a good move, based on the information he had.  We on the outside knew it was a move destined to blow up in JT's face, because of who he was passing the idol to  But JT did not know that.  He had no idea that the Villain he was trying to sway to the Hero side (remember, the note contained a line to the effect of "leave the dark side behind and join the good guys") reveled in being a Villain.  Nor did JT know that person he thought was the odd man out of the alliance on the Villain side was a leader of it.  But we knew all that, based on both the previous season and the fact that we could see dynamics happening on both sides.  JT did not have that luxury at the time.  He learned it all the same way we did; watching the seasons in question.

The reasons the Idol Pass is considered a "bad" move are that the wrong target of the pass was chosen (Hantz) and that it backfired spectacularly on the instigator (JT, via Parvati's Double Idol Distribution play).  But it's not a bad move.  It's a good but unsuccessful move.  The Idol Pass play itself was ingenious.  If it had been successful, it would be lauded alongside Cirie's 3-2-1 or Plan Voodoo (taking the place of Parvati's Double Idol Distribution, since her play would not have happened.)  No one had ever before tried to gain an ally and take out a major threat (despite JT's misogynistic attitude, Parvati was indeed a threat) in that way.  The closest thing before it was in China with Todd giving James one HI and telling him exactly where to find the other, but Todd and James were already allies before that.

[fishcakes]

I would say the exact opposite. It was a bad move, based on the information he had because he had no information. It was based on nothing. And if it had worked, I would still say it was a bad move. Bad but successful, but still bad. Good TV, but imbecilic strategy. He gave away his immunity idol to someone not in his alliance, on the opposing tribe, a tribe whose dynamics he knew nothing about, to save a person he had zero information on, on the off-chance that that person would be loyal to him. I can't parse that as anything but moronic.

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think maybe he overthinks it now, or is better with a bunch of first-timers.  

I think I'm on the side of the people who think his HvV move and maybe even this season's move are based on JT being butthurt over getting some "Stephen should've won! JT was nothing without him!" comments after his win.

11 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

I would say the exact opposite. It was a bad move, based on the information he had because he had no information. It was based on nothing. And if it had worked, I would still say it was a bad move. Bad but successful, but still bad. Good TV, but imbecilic strategy. He gave away his immunity idol to someone not in his alliance, on the opposing tribe, a tribe whose dynamics he knew nothing about, to save a person he had zero information on, on the off-chance that that person would be loyal to him. I can't parse that as anything but moronic.

+1

[NutMeg]

17 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think his Tocantins win was masterful.  He had people wanting him to win more than they wanted it for themselves (e.g., that Brendan guy).  He handled those morons beautifully from a social perspective, and he had a strong physical game.  I think maybe he overthinks it now, or is better with a bunch of first-timers.  

His win in Tocantins was definitely very unique - never before of after have we seen people, en masse, not just ok with losing to someone but actively wanting someone to win over them. Even if it was just that Brendan guys, others seemed ok losing as long as they were losing to JT. That's some serious charisma.

The way he overthinks it now, or overplays, got me to think that despite his win, or because his win was so linked to his working with Stephen, maybe he wants to prove to himself (and accessorily to the Survivor fans universe) that he can also do it all by himself. The problem is that it's an almost impossible feast, because as we have seen both JT and Stephen cannot do it alone, they are the yin and yang, one has the confidence and the other one the pessimistic view that makes him weight and analyse all options. Both together were one of the best things that I've seen on Survivor. Each one, individually, pales in comparison, because none of them is complete without a trusted ally that can balance their flaws in this game.

8 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

Bringing over from Caleb's thread. 

Let's see. JT started that season saying he didn't want to play like a hero. He decides to hitch himself to a villain he may not know, but he sure as hell knows he's on the Villains tribe. Someone who can deduce from the evidence in front of him might suspect  that the dude probably did something to get classified that way. So, just maybe giving him a bunch of information and writing a love note could backfire. Of course, as we just saw in this season, JT isn't very quick on the uptake. So, he throws in with the guy labeled "villain", and gets bitten in the ass. How could he ever predict that? 

I've just realised that, because some of these villains were not villains at all, and stayed solid with their alliances all the way (Sandra, Courtney, Danielle, for instance), he may have had reason to think Russell thought he was miscast. Of course, he was wrong, because Russell not only embraced his villainy but took pride in it. I still fault JT for building up an imaginary scenario and running with it though. But SVNBob is right that, had JT chosen the right person, it would have been lauded as a clever move. Then again, even if the villains had voted out the chosen target, I don't see them as a group keeping their chosen new friend that long, so ultimately I thought they were just bribing Russell with an idol to vote Parvati but would have gotten rid of him at some early-ish stage.  

Edited March 25, 2017 by NutMeg
I wrote "heroes" when I meant "villains"

[fishcakes]

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think I'm on the side of the people who think his HvV move and maybe even this season's move are based on JT being butthurt over getting some "Stephen should've won! JT was nothing without him!" comments after his win.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. The sad thing is, I do think JT won Tocantins based on the strength of his social game (coupled with how insanely easy it is to play Coach's massive, fragile ego against him). But unfortunately for him, the more JT plays, the more true it looks that he was just the affable face and beneficiary of Stephen's superior game. Even after his derp edit in Cambodia, Stephen still comes across as the better strategist, especially when compared to JT in his subsequent seasons.

[NutMeg]

29 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think I'm on the side of the people who think his HvV move and maybe even this season's move are based on JT being butthurt over getting some "Stephen should've won! JT was nothing without him!" comments after his win.

+1

Hey, I was writing something in the same vein while you were posting!

 

11 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. The sad thing is, I do think JT won Tocantins based on the strength of his social game (coupled with how insanely easy it is to play Coach's massive, fragile ego against him). But unfortunately for him, the more JT plays, the more true it looks that he was just the affable face and beneficiary of Stephen's superior game. Even after his derp edit in Cambodia, Stephen still comes across as the better strategist, especially when compared to JT in his subsequent seasons.

And as I just wrote, I don't think either JT or Stephen can pull it on their own. Has strategy without charisma ever worked? (not a rhetorical question, I missed 5 of the first 6 or 7 seasons) 

[KimberStormer]

8 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

Bringing over from Caleb's thread. 

Let's see. JT started that season saying he didn't want to play like a hero. He decides to hitch himself to a villain he may not know, but he sure as hell knows he's on the Villains tribe. Someone who can deduce from the evidence in front of him might suspect  that the dude probably did something to get classified that way. So, just maybe giving him a bunch of information and writing a love note could backfire. Of course, as we just saw in this season, JT isn't very quick on the uptake. So, he throws in with the guy labeled "villain", and gets bitten in the ass. How could he ever predict that? 

This argument sounds reasonable and I thought it myself at the time, but it's actually not IMO, it's letting the ridiculous producer's gimmick take over your brain.  The hero/villain designation means nothing.  Just as everyone has been saying about this season, how mostly nobody is a "game changer".  As @NutMeg says, there were a lot of people who weren't villainous on the Villains.  Parvati and Rob were famous betrayers but I'm having trouble thinking of a single other one on the Villains; and Cirie and Candice were on the Heroes!  JT knew Tyson and Coach over there -- a pair of harmless jerks, and both of them with a kindly side, and more loyal than not.  Courtney and Randy are just snarky.  Danielle never did a villainous thing in her life.  Sandra's only villainous move was dumping the fish.  They're just people, semi-arbitrarily split into these Disney Princess-level categories.

On the Villains there was the leader of the most famous and successful women's alliance to date.  She was the one everyone was talking about taking out ASAP.  Yet she did not go home.  The people who went home on the Villains pre-merge were all men, which is very, very unusual on Survivor.  Moreover the order made sense if there's a women's alliance -- easy vote for Randy to get the women's numbers up, then take out Tyson who is strong and social, then Rob the big kahuna, then Coach who has the JT connection on the other side, leaving only the newbie who nobody knows, with no connections, obviously the weakest person out there: Russell.  Guessing there was a women's alliance was a mistake, but it wasn't a stupid mistake.  And Russell's personality has nothing to do with it whatsoever.  If it had been true, and Russell was the Russell we all know, you think he wouldn't want that idol?  He wouldn't want allies on the Hero side when he made the merge thanks to that idol?  He would just laugh villainously as he was voted out, spitefully not using the idol to screw JT?

I don't think he's trying to get out from Stephen's shadow -- he thoroughly out-gamed Stephen as well as everything else in Tocantins.  He was still playing hard at FTC and Stephen didn't even know it until the votes had been placed and JT turned to him and said "sorry man, I'm not really mad at you."  There's really no shadow to get out from.  I think rather he knows that he can't win on pure charm a second time and he needs to play hard, and he is an audacious, original, fearless gamer who takes big risks, which don't always work out.  I now see that had Parvati been wrong and the Heroes had voted for her instead of Jerri at the merge, that move, instead of being lauded as one of the best ever (as it indeed was) would go down in history as one of the stupidest: because people judge these things only by how they turn out.

Lately I'm getting the feeling that people think JT is so dumb because of his accent and that is really bumming me out.

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, KimberStormer said:

Lately I'm getting the feeling that people think JT is so dumb because of his accent and that is really bumming me out.

Nope. JT's dumb because he's dumb ;) His accent has nothing to do with it. (I'm teasing, but my best friend slaps me with a sentence like that whenever i say something, so I couldn't resist). 

I do think though (Peach, and others) - I think in Tocantins, Stephen suffered from Rob Mariano Syndrome with a touch of Amanda-itis. 
He was seen as the villain. He betrayed a lot of the jury, and I think at the end - he couldn't handle it. Rob couldn't - and couldn't articulate why he did the things he did, Amanda couldn't. (Twice!), and neither could Stephen.

JT was quick enough to realise that, to the point where he started attacking (smartly) Stephen and the moves HE made and what not. by the time Stephen could actually get back and start firing some truth bombs back at him way too late. (this is why - truly, i wish we could see MORE of final tribal. it's so cut down now, but i think there are so much more that could ascertain why ppl win (or lose). as I am always a firm believer you can influence votes for/against you up until the very end. 

I will say this. while I do think JT is a dink, if he manages to get out of this sticky wicket he caused for himself, I will be impressed. 

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I don't think he's trying to get out from Stephen's shadow -- he thoroughly out-gamed Stephen as well as everything else in Tocantins. 

I agree that he thoroughly out-gamed Stephen in Tocantins. His FTC performance alone was like 500 times better than Stephen's. But I still think he got butthurt over the fans who think he couldn't have done it without Steven. I believe that was at least part of why he did what he did in HvV. But I think the largest part of it was fear of [a] women['s] alliance.

I think it's easier to see legit, strategically sound reasons for this latest move.

Edited March 25, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

3 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Lately I'm getting the feeling that people think JT is so dumb because of his accent and that is really bumming me out.

It could be that or his gut or his imperfect tooth repair or his eyebrows or his making an alliance that wasn't balanced by age, gender and race or that he wanted a viewer's tv crush out or any other of a thousand things that people judge players for.   Everyone's a sorting hat.  

Or it could be that people think he's dumb because he's made dumb moves.

[Vyk]

7 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Has strategy without charisma ever worked? (not a rhetorical question, I missed 5 of the first 6 or 7 seasons) 

Sophie Clarke can tell you it's possible.  She won South Pacific pretty much only on her strategic game.

[Rachel RSL]

3 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Lately I'm getting the feeling that people think JT is so dumb because of his accent and that is really bumming me out.

Definitely not. His accent is charming. People think he's dumb because of his game play. He's made 2 of the biggest bonehead moves I can think of in recent seasons.

[peachmangosteen]

Quote

It could be that or his gut or his imperfect tooth repair or his eyebrows or his making an alliance that wasn't balanced by age, gender and race or that he wanted a viewer's tv crush out or any other of a thousand things that people judge players for.   Everyone's a sorting hat.  

 

8 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

Or it could be that people think he's dumb because he's made dumb moves.

I was gonna say that in response to the fist comment, too.

I think @KimberStormer makes good points about JT's HvV move, but I just don't think any of them have anything to do with why JT actually made that move. 

But hell, I still think Tyson getting himself voted off is worse!

[LadyChatts]

Hali has an accent and I love it (and her).  As some others have said, JT's own worst enemy in this game is himself.  And I'm definitely a fan of the strategic game play over the social element.  I could give him a pass on the idol fiasco with Russell.  But JT this past episode just made no sense.  He gets in his own head too much.  It might not be so much about Stephen now as it was his HvsV blunder totally changing the course of the game, and trying to prove he wouldn't make the same mistake twice.  He better hope he can find that idol, or someone on his tribe makes a huge mistake and points the target away from him.

In addition, Sandra, Varner, or Michaela may pull a page out of Tasha's play book during SC and call him out in front of everyone at the next challenge-saying he was strategizing with Brad during TC and that's why Malcolm went.  Show that they are a pair and where JT's loyalty lies, so if/when another tribe swap happens, it might further keep the target on him. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by LadyChatts

[Oholibamah]

On March 23, 2017 at 5:28 PM, KimberStormer said:

I think this is very wrong about JT.  He is bold, proactive, and quite ready to flip on people.  Wishy-washy is the opposite of what JT is.  Wishy-washy people would play quiet and dumb like everyone apparently wants JT to, despite hating Sierra for doing so on her season, etc.  JT, whatever else you can say about him, makes moves.  He doesn't sit around thinking about making moves and deciding against it.

See I think this is exactly wrong.  JT is already a dead man walking on his tribe.  He's working on them, sure, but it's hopeless for him.  There is no doubt whatever that he would go home if they went to tribal just as one tribe.  They didn't need him for challenges; they have Michaela and Malcolm for athletic purposes and Aubry for puzzles, they're a very strong team without him.  Sandra doesn't want to keep him around, and nobody has any reason to disagree.  Malcolm might be interested in working with him, but that's not nearly enough.

Possible outcomes of this vote for JT:

1. Sandra goes home.  Hugely good for JT.  Now he and Malcolm are a pair of leader-ish people who want to work together, there's no big Sandra personality to get in their way.  Michaela wants to win challenges, and is a bit intimidated (it seems to me) by the veterans around her.  She's sure to be on their side.  Varner doesn't want to stir the pot.  Aubry has nobody to work with.  JT makes the merge and with plenty of options.

2,3,4. Varner, Michaela, or Aubry goes home.  OK for JT.  He's still in bad shape because Sandra is there and in control but it's much easier to flip one more person, giving him and Malcolm a 3-2 advantage.  He can make the case that Sandra is too dangerous to keep in the game.  It's not great because people will accuse him of treachery, but OldNuku is a sinking ship at this point.  His position is possibly a little bit better or it's a wash.

5. No idol, Sierra goes home.  JT has not burned NuNuku -- he voted with them -- and he has complete credibility with Brad and Co.  He's where he started, but stronger.  Sierra was no special help to JT.  If he can make the merge, he's still got options.

6. Malcolm goes home.  This is the only possibility which really materially hurts JT, and even so, it's not really much different for him in the short term.  He was going home if NuNuku went to TC anyway!  His long-term game suffers, for sure, but his OldNuku tribe is still going very strong, and he's proven his credibility with them, so if he makes the merge he is still OK.

Only 1 in 6 of these possibilities hurts him long term.  Short term his position can't get worse.  So make the move.  Of course make the move.  I feel like Survivor fans are always post-game quarterbacking (or whatever they call it) these things, of course it was wrong for Jessica to pull rocks, because she went home for it, of course it was right for Kelley Wentworth to play her idol because she got all the votes, etc. 

EDIT I guess 7. JT goes home was also a possibility, and that would have been of course the worst possible outcome for JT, but I think the chance of that was pretty remote.

This is a pretty iron-clad cost/benefit analysis of JT's options, but I'll add that he had to make these decisions in real-time with no chance to reflect on how the Tribal conversations were actually being taken. 

At the very worst, I hardly think it's desperation to absolve a favorite player of a bad move considering the bounceback eliminated another of Kimber's favorites. 

[KimberStormer]

8 hours ago, Daisy said:

Nope. JT's dumb because he's dumb ;) His accent has nothing to do with it.

OK, fair enough.

6 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think @KimberStormer makes good points about JT's HvV move, but I just don't think any of them have anything to do with why JT actually made that move. 

I feel like they have nothing to do but think about the game all day and they must have come up with anything I can, here at home with a million distractions! 

[peachmangosteen]

8 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I feel like they have nothing to do but think about the game all day and they must have come up with anything I can, here at home with a million distractions! 

True and perhaps JT did consider some of the points you made, but based on everything we saw/heard from in HvV I just don't think he did it for many other reasons than, "I'm gonna make a move to prove I'm a good player!" and "Women suck, man."

Edited March 26, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[MissEwa]

I'm on team 'JT's HvV move was dumb' but I don't think his Game Changers move was. I did at first, because it knocked out my Survivor boyfriend and I was sad, but it seemed like he was the only person not treating this like vote a merge. Sure, the instinct in this situation is to take aim at the other tribe and protect your own, but there are actually sixteen players left, and - in all likelihood - at least 3 vote-outs and a tribe shuffle/merge before the actual merge. If you're the odd person out on your tribe and see an opportunity to take out the kingpin, this is actually the perfect time to do it. Succeeding might weaken your tribe - for now, although if they'd voted Sandra... not so much - but it'll give you more options when the actual merge happens. JT can be a bonehead but he wasn't the dummy here. 

ETA. I just realised I called this move bone-headed in the episode thread probably 20 minutes before I posted this. I think JT has maybe just completely bamboozled me. I *think* I think it was had seeds of a decent move but he didn't handle it right. Kinda like Malcolm's triple-idol play in Caramoan - nearly great, but flubbed in the execution.

I also think if JT *had* got Sandra out he'd be lauded as one of the greats. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by MissEwa

[peachmangosteen]

37 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

I just realised I called this move bone-headed in the episode thread probably 20 minutes before I posted this. I think JT has maybe just completely bamboozled me. I *think* I think it was had seeds of a decent move but he didn't handle it right. Kinda like Malcolm's triple-idol play in Caramoan - nearly great, but flubbed in the execution.=

LMAO I'm the same. I'm like 'you know this move wasn't bad' and then 'JT is the dumbest ever' within like 10 minutes.

I think that's it, it wasn't a bad play at all, but it just didn't work out in a spectacular fashion so it seems like a really bad move. And some of why it didn't work out was just circumstances out of JT's control, but in general he just played it pretty badly from start to finish.

Edited March 26, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[violet and green]

I think maybe mistakes were made in that moment - but Fishbach who is considered so bright made a hell of a dumb move/assumption/series of assumptions (to be honest, I no longer remember which)  in whatever that last season he was in was, and no-one automatically downgraded his intelligence rating.

[Lamb18]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 8:50 AM, NutMeg said:

His win in Tocantins was definitely very unique - never before of after have we seen people, en masse, not just ok with losing to someone but actively wanting someone to win over them. Even if it was just that Brendan guys, others seemed ok losing as long as they were losing to JT. That's some serious charisma.

Now I'm curious to watch Tocantins to see why anybody would want J.T. to win over them. I certainly can't see it from watching him on Game Changers. (I'm on season 4 Marquesas right now so I've got a few seasons to get through.)

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

Now I'm curious to watch Tocantins to see why anybody would want J.T. to win over them. 

I watched Tocantins and I still don't get it. I think JT has a similar quality to Parvati in that it's hard to see on tv why exactly people become so taken with them.

[cherrypj]

I think it's not so much that JT "Jesus walked" to the win, it's more that Tempura (yes, yes, I know) and Stephen imploded. 

[KimberStormer]

Well, Timbira imploded in large part because they were falling all over themselves to play with JT.  Brendan had the infamous "I don't want to win, I want JT to win" talking head, and Coach and Tyson adored him.  And even people like Erinn, who you might think would be more skeptical, loved him.  (Heck, Stephen himself seems like sort of an odd match with JT, yet they became super-close friends.)

I think people give short shrift to both people when they say Stephen had all the brains and JT had all the charm.  Taj was immediately drawn to Stephen and wanted to ally with him from day one.  Erinn said something like Stephen ended up being the person she felt closest to.  Coach named him The Wizard.  Stephen's not some antisocial super nerdoid.  He's a charming friendly athletic guy.  It's just that JT was on a completely different level of social game in Tocantins.  He eclipsed Stephen so badly that the jury thought Stephen did basically nothing but get dragged to the end by his best friend.  I've said it before, I felt Stephen's pain so acutely on that because I also have a best friend who without even meaning to necessarily has been upstaging me my whole life long.  It's painful for me to listen to some of the jury speaks videos, where they're all like "well Stephen's there because JT brought weak players to the end so he could win...but Stephen made it to the end, so that's something." 

The show has never really been very good at showing us the social game but I think you can see how much everyone liked and respected him on that season when you watch it.  He had the kind of game, as Lisa said of Malcolm in Philippines, where he can stab you in the back, visit you in the hospital the next day, and you say "what a sweet boy he is."

[NutMeg]

20 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

Now I'm curious to watch Tocantins to see why anybody would want J.T. to win over them. I certainly can't see it from watching him on Game Changers. (I'm on season 4 Marquesas right now so I've got a few seasons to get through.)

You should absolutely watch it, that aspect in particular was very distinctive.  

16 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I watched Tocantins and I still don't get it. I think JT has a similar quality to Parvati in that it's hard to see on tv why exactly people become so taken with them.

Yes and no. With Parvati, we got glimpses (really glimpses, blink and you miss them kinds). Like in her first season, someone brought the idea of voting out the strong dude that was acting as a tyrant king, and someone says "you have to talk to Parvati", and then, lo and behold, tyrant king in training JP was sent packing, which meant she had a strong influence in the game that we hadn't seen. But those were glimpses because the story TPTB wanted to tell us was that Parvati was a flirt. And she was, but not in the restricted way they implied. She was most likely getting close and engaging with *everyone* out there. Because it's how/who she is. When Yul deemed her too dangerous to keep, it was not (only) because she was "flirting" with Ozzy, but because Becky and Sandra wanted to keep her too. That was kind of forgotten in the narrative but was clear if you looked beyond the obvious.

Now, back to JT, maybe he was getting close to everyone back in Tocantins to inspire such abnegation. We didn't see much of it because TPTB were more interested in showing the JT/Stephen bond (they probably saw it as what? a bro-showmance? a show bromance?), which I found fascinating and remains one of my favorite pairings ever on Survivor, and accessorily JT as the challenge beast, tough good old boy who doesn't care to loose teeth, and other superficial characteristics. But yes, to go back to the post I'm quoting here, I think he may have had amazing charisma, which is something we don't see that often, and it's a shame it was edited out in favor of more commonplace characteristics. 

What puzzles me, though, is how that charisma hasn't really carried forward in his later seasons. (Parvati's did, Rob's did, for instance.) Is it because in his case, specifically, winning means he's no longer the poor farm boy hoping to help his family? I don't know, I'd like to understand if it is him who changed or others' perception of him. Any thoughts? 

[LadyChatts]

Quote

What puzzles me, though, is how that charisma hasn't really carried forward in his later seasons. (Parvati's did, Rob's did, for instance.) Is it because in his case, specifically, winning means he's no longer the poor farm boy hoping to help his family? I don't know, I'd like to understand if it is him who changed or others' perception of him. Any thoughts? 

It could be something as simple as a really good edit the first time around or JT just changing.  That said, I think JT wanted to change his game around and maybe tried to come off as not being the nice guy who won because he was nice and his buddy did all the work.  HvsV, he said he didn't want to play like a hero, he wanted to play like a villain.  He's best known for making a game changing blunder in that season.  This time might have been another shot at redemption and proving he can play and win this game without charm, or someone pulling the strings, and that he's got a better instinct about making moves and who to trust.  One thing JT does have going for him is he might be the first person in Survivor history to be directly responsible for his own boot-twice.

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, NutMeg said:

What puzzles me, though, is how that charisma hasn't really carried forward in his later seasons. (Parvati's did, Rob's did, for instance.) Is it because in his case, specifically, winning means he's no longer the poor farm boy hoping to help his family? 

That is such a good question that I didn't even think about. Perhaps it was the particular group JT got the first time that happened to be so enamored with him and not that he has an uncanny ability to get different groups of people to bow to him the way Parvati and BRob have proven to be able to do.

Edited March 28, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Vyk]

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

That is such a good question that I didn't even think about. Perhaps it was the particular group JT got the first time that happened to be so enamored with him and not that he has an uncanny ability to get different groups of people to bow to him the way Parvati and BRob have proven to be able to do.

I simply have to think it's that -- that he was lucky enough to have that particular group.  J.T. might've had a chance at having everyone so enamored with him his second time playing, too, but actual players played the game in Heroes vs. Villains, and screwing them over again and again wasn't the best way to let people be swayed by his charms.  Same has clearly happened in Game Changers.  What Southern charm he might've had is clearly not there anymore, and his bad move in the last episode pretty much ensured it's not going to work on anyone.

[KimberStormer]

But as we've said about social game winners over and over, they never show the social game.  I don't think we can tell whether or not it was working for JT or not.  I have to think he had a pretty good one in HvV since his tribe kept him, and stayed with him despite various moves (the people who voted him out had never met him except at challenges); he seemed to be fine in his tribe and we have this week Malcolm talking about how he was skipping down the beach hand in hand with JT after one day with him...it seems like it's still there to me.  Anyway it's a lot more difficult to social game returnees who are desperate to win.

Part of the thing is that JT's social game always worked better on men than women, and HvV was a season of strong women, plus most of the men were doofs.  Of course we take Amanda's suspicious word over Rupert and Colby liking JT since Amanda is not a complete moron.  But they did like him.

[Vyk]

1 hour ago, KimberStormer said:

Part of the thing is that JT's social game always worked better on men than women, and HvV was a season of strong women, plus most of the men were doofs.  Of course we take Amanda's suspicious word over Rupert and Colby liking JT since Amanda is not a complete moron.  But they did like him.

Yeah . . . no.  I actually do think that Rupert did, but I honestly saw no indication that Colby did.  He, Amanda, and Candice all couldn't stand him and were in agreement that he'd be the first to go should they have gone to one more Tribal Council before the merge.  He'd gotten rid of Colby's partner, Tom, gotten Amanda's partner, Cirie, tossed, and had generally made Candice's stay in that season a misery, both with his treatment of her around camp and trying to target her every which way she looked (which made her immunity win in the double-boot pre-merge episode all the more glorious).  None of those three could stand it any longer and wanted him gone.  J.T. lucked out majorly that they managed to win every Immunity Challenge after James's ouster.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Vyk

[KimberStormer]

TBH the Heroes were too boring for me to be able to remember their tribe dynamics accurately, so I will defer to you on this one.

[Lamb18]

7 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

But as we've said about social game winners over and over, they never show the social game.  I don't think we can tell whether or not it was working for JT or not. 

I've been watching the early seasons. I'm on Marquesas now, and they do show the social game - at least enough to get the dynamics around camp. I really like these early seasons because there are no gimmicks to use as crutches (like idols). Whether you win or lose depends on how you get along with others and if you're lucky enough to win immunity, although you don't need to to win. I just watched the episode where John was booted - that must have been a fun one to watch when first aired - you go in thinking Sean is the next boot, then suddenly it's all switched up and the top dog (John) is gone.

[ByaNose]

It seems like JT is going lie, lie, lie until the cows die. I guess he could be voted out if they go to Tribal Council which would leave Varner as the sole male....I think. Then the 3 girls could gang up on him. By that time there could be a merge. I'm interested to see how it plays tonight after Tribal Council.  If he can make it through without going to Tribal Council he might be able to flip back with Brad and his crew. Sneaky! Sneaky! LOL!!!

[Bryce Lynch]

Bye, Felicia!  Best blindside ever!

What an ass!  He sabotaged the tribe and then blames Michaela for all their problems.

At least he will have plenty of sugar for his effing coffee now, and the idol that could have saved him in his pocket.

[LadyChatts]

I wish we could see the look on Malcolm's face when he walks into pre-jury Ponderosa.  Wonder if he will tell them he had an idol in his pocket.

He's not good at this game in any sense.  At least Erik isn't the dumbest Survivor in history anymore for giving up immunity.  Just when I think JT can't top his series of blunders...

Edited March 30, 2017 by LadyChatts

[Vyk]

I really don't see how you can justify or defend him now, @KimberStormer.  There really is no defending that arrogance or stupidity.

First, he takes himself out with his own idol fourteen seasons ago.  Now he goes out with his own idol in his pocket.  ETA: Oh!  And not even in his pocket!  He didn't even bring it with him!  Ha!

I never liked J.T. in Tocantins, honestly.  But he went and validated and vindicated my utter distaste for him every time he was on after that.  I hate this loser so damn much and hope he never returns again.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Vyk

[kikaha]

As it stands, JT is the worst player of this season, and for anyone else to overtake him will take some seriously bad playing. 

Let me get

[jsm1125]

I so wish that the pre-jury Ponderosa was available for people to watch this season!

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, kikaha said:

As it stands, JT is the worst player of this season, and for anyone else to overtake him will take some seriously bad playing. 

Let me get

Debbie accepts your challenge! :)

[kikaha]

continued from accidental post... let me get this straight.  3 days ago, JT was on fire to boot Sandra.  Now, with an idol in his pocket, he can virtually guarantee she goes.  Instead he lets himself get duped by nonsense, shoots off his mouth both before TC and during, and gets himself booted instead. 

This is after his colossal screw-up the week before, that got Malcolm booted as well.

Squaring this awful play with his first season is not easy for me to do.  Maybe the various theories about him are right.  Hard to imagine worse play than this season though. 

[LadyChatts]

Fishbach defended his move last week (and got called out), so I wonder if he's going to take a break from his People blog and pretend this week's events never happened.

I could watch his boot over and over again.  It was perfect.  Michaela drinking coffee like a queen was the icing on the cake.  I really can't believe JT didn't see through them.  I wonder if they dumbed down the editing to make his boot look even more idiotic.