S01.E06: Beautiful Wickedness

[Camera One]

Quote

Also, the more they make the Wizard stupid, incompetent, blatantly untrustworthy it becomes very hard to believe he succeeded in conquering anything.

I don't think they're portraying him as stupid and incompetent at all.  He is being portrayed as cunning and backstabbing, and the flashbacks provide a hint as to how he consolidated his power, by giving people the impression that he stopped The Beast Forever (probably with his scientific background), even though his refusal to leave was the reason why The Beast was there in the first place.  This is in line with the cowardly nature of The Wizard in the Oz books and his use of smokescreens to hide his weakness.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

Just now, sjohnson said:

It does not actually make any sense that people coming to Oz brings the Beast Forever. It especially does not make a lick of sense to call it the Beast Forever if it's only been there the one time, after Frank stayed. However could these people talk about interpreting patterns etc. when this dialogue tells us the Beast Forever is of such recent vintage? One appearance is not a pattern!

To be fair, we don't know if this is the first time "ferenghi" (Thai for "foreigners") have come into Oz, bringing the Beast Forever.  They might have had visitors from Narnia, or the Shire, or Gilead, any of whom would have brought their own version of the Beast Forever.

Dorothy's version is yet unknown, but why did Frank bring rain, flood and drowning?

[dargosmydaddy]

On 2/3/2017 at 10:27 PM, Senna said:

Likewise, we've gotten a few more pieces for Lucas, but not the whole picture.  Actually, the fact that the other soldiers apparently saw the witch girls getting away rings a bit weird to me.  Why wouldn't anyone have mentioned that before?  The soldier last week (who was there!) made it sound like no one knew what was in the wagon and Lucas/Roan was just a crazy berserker on a killing spree.  Since I like this show a lot, I'm just going to go ahead and leave it at "The Wizard's soldiers are totally unorganized and terrible at communicating," which is why they left Lucas for dead instead of warning the Wizard and attempting to capture the girls.

So much this! I watched the Lucas memory scene twice, and it seems devoid of blood, other than Lucas's when he gets stabbed. The majority of the killed Wizard's Guardsman are clutching their faces (eyes?) as they keel over; Lucas only seems to cut down one of them. And it seems like the girls running away would have been clearly visible to both the guy who stabbed Lucas and the guy on horseback who proposed hanging Lucas. WTF? Do the girls have some kind of memory-altering powers (which I guess they would also have no control over, otherwise they could have just used that instead of killing and running). At the very least, did no one notice the complete lack of sword wounds on Lucas's supposed victims? It didn't appear that he had time to stab them afterwards just to cover the girls' tracks, so...???

4 hours ago, sjohnson said:

slf thinks Tip accidentally pushed Jack over the rail. My eyes have never convinced me it was accidental.

Add me to the side of it being accidental. Yes, she wanted him away from her, and maybe even wanted to hurt him (though honestly I don't think there was much in the way of forethought), but all of her reactions afterwards spoke to her shock and sorrow over killing him.

8 hours ago, Mojeaux said:

I like Jack and his journey. I do not like Tip or hers. (No, I haven’t read the books.)

I haven't read the books either, but I'm really enjoying both characters and their journeys (though Tip's journey is admittedly short on development these past two episodes, while Jack's has come to the forefront). I also like the parallels to both of them having to deal with new and unfamiliar bodies. Also loved Tip's awkwardness and Jack's anger during their meeting, which seemed natural under the circumstances. I'm sure they'll meet again, and I hope a reconciliation comes eventually, but yeah, it definitely shouldn't come easily/ quickly. 

[sjohnson]

Tip being shocked that her mighty shove actually sent Tip not just up against the rail but over is more like surprise at her own strength. But I agree she was deeply grieved afterwards. My thing there is I believe real life murderers are quite capable of being sincerely sorry about what they did in the heat of the moment. Many disagree of course. 

The Wizard's vortex machine seems to have something to do with his rule, assuming it actually operates as said. Possibly it's how K. Chapman and Dorothy got back to Earth. It seems remarkably imprudent for anyone to trust anything East said. Jane never considered East's offer was a ploy to get her to bring in the others. Surprising the compulsively treacherous and back-stabbing Frank didn't point this out, but instead confessed all. No doubt some deep-seated villainy was behind that.

[dargosmydaddy]

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

My thing there is I believe real life murderers are quite capable of being sincerely sorry about what they did in the heat of the moment.

Well, yes. And obviously she did kill Jack. But "murder" implies that she was actually trying to kill him, which I just don't see. Yes, she shoved him very hard. If she was thinking more clearly, she might have realized that was not the ideal location to be giving someone a mighty shove. But she wasn't thinking clearly. And she wasn't so much "sincerely sorry" afterwards as utterly horrified.

[Camera One]

Can someone explain why Dorothy gave The Wizard the gun, and whether she agreed to kill Glinda for him?  I was doing something else while watching, so didn't quite catch the rationale.

[Mojeaux]

@Camera One, I believe she gave him the gun in exchange for letting her, Sylvie, and Lucas out of Oz without the guards comng after them, to go to Glinda to try to get Lucas’s memories out from under Glinda’s spell.

[Jordan27]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 7:52 PM, Fireball said:

Oops I don't know why I typed Sophie.

That was Dorothy's mother's name in Leverage.

[Ariah]

First: I respect the show for using 1st Person Perspective for Lucas/Roan memories. So often do we see a view from the outside - while more informative, it does not make much sense. So, good work, show.

As for the whole logic of the scene and different accounts we have had so far:

- Eammon thinks Roan didn't kill his men, because he was never a cold-blooded killer,

- Toby says he saw Roan kill ten men before he stabbed him,

- Lucas himself remembers Roan transporting young witches, being stopped by the Guard, the witches panicking and causing some of the soldiers to bleed from their eyes which resulted in them attacking Roan, Roan defending himself and killing some of the guards in the process before being stabbed by Toby, ordering the girls to run and taking Glinda's Pill of Forgetfulness [TM].

Now, what I believe might have happened was:

Eammon got a report of Roan going off rails and slaughtering 10 men singlehandedly.

Toby and other soldiers covered up the fact they:

a) strung up a man on a cross for revenge and fun (judging by the state Dorothy found him in, the soldiers took their time doing that)

b) let dozen of tiny witch-kids escape.

If they didn't report having seen the girls and kept the cargo a mystery, they avoided a lot of questions. Either that, or the witches put some kind of reality bending spell on the surviving soldiers.

[sjohnson]

Toby was there but it doesn't mean he knows what happened. It seems very possible Toby thought it was all Rowan's (sp?) doing. It's not entirely clear the survivors got a good look at the girls at all, much less realized they were the ones who attacked the soldiers.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

15 hours ago, Mojeaux said:

@Camera One, I believe she gave him the gun in exchange for letting her, Sylvie, and Lucas out of Oz without the guards comng after them, to go to Glinda to try to get Lucas’s memories out from under Glinda’s spell.

Dorothy told the Wizard that she would do anything to get home.  While I don't think she would agree to hurt Lucas or Sylvie, if she destroys Glinda, the Wizard says he will send her home.  I think it's as simple as that.

I'm not sure how the Wizard immediately recognized that Dorothy was Dorothy.  She was a child when she left Oz and it's not like she's the exact image of her mother, or he saw her hand tattoo.

Edited February 6, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

We're Off To See The Wizard's Backstory On Emerald City

Is it wonderful, or humbug?

[AzureOwl]

On 5/2/2017 at 1:54 PM, sjohnson said:

It does not actually make any sense that people coming to Oz brings the Beast Forever. It especially does not make a lick of sense to call it the Beast Forever if it's only been there the one time, after Frank stayed. However could these people talk about interpreting patterns etc. when this dialogue tells us the Beast Forever is of such recent vintage? One appearance is not a pattern! Also, strictly speaking, Frank refused to go before he had a kingdom, and before he had any prospect of having one either. Also, strictly speaking Frank is not the only one who stayed. Also, strictly speaking, Frank has the incentive of not going back because of his guilt in accidentally causing Roberto's death. By the way, the mad scientist shtick the head scientist is doing now in Ev isn't obviously morally superior. 

Elizabeth constantly refers to Dorothy's arrival as The First True Sign that announces the coming of the Beast Forever. Also, Mistress East was very emphatic that nothing good ever comes from the sky. All of this seems to indicate that the arrival of outsiders from another world is the first sign that lets the people of Oz know that the Best Forever is coming and that this has happened in every previous instance of the Beast Forever attacking. The fact that it's referred to as The First True Sign would also indicate that the interlopers' arrival is one of the things that never changes in any iteration of the cycle. That the Beast takes many forms and announces its presence in many ways, but the one thing that never changes is the arrival of the interlopers from another world. 

What we still can't know for sure is if there's any causality in the matter. Does the presence of outsiders cause the Beast to manifest? Or does their arrival simply act as warning? Is the First True Sign prescriptive or descriptive?

Mistress East seemed to be of the opinion that killing the interlopers or sending them back from whence they came could prevent the appearance of the Beast.  Given her status as a Cardinal Witch this opinion holds a lot of weight, so that points to the arrival of the interlopers causing some sort of imbalance in the magic of Oz that causes to Beast Forever to manifest to correct it.

The only point against this theory is that it implies that the Ozians are extremely sloppy about dispatching the interlopers, since the Beast has manifested many, many times. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by AzureOwl

[zumpie]

I don't have issues, per se, with Dorothy turning over the gun (for all we know, she has another----or something)....but I'm dying to learn what devastated Karen so significantly that she went from a research doctor to a trailerite who couldn't even care for her own kid. And how Jane found her way to her secret, deeply subordinate life in Ev.

Additionally, I take issue with Frank's science applications (he appears to be some sort of research assistant, typically a position which can require anywhere from no higher ed degree to at least a master's....but the implication is he's an unskilled tech) is: he's able to rig a primitive electrical system (something that would've been somewhat advanced less than 200 years ago)----but doesn't know to make bullets, even though that's much more primitive technology (literally heat, a simple mold and lead----and early guns were more like mini cannons) and, since they already have armor, etc---one that they could've replicated long ago.

As for Dorothy being a nurse; it only actually takes two years of post secondary school to obtain a basic RN (though there are a myriad of advanced degrees). The issue for becoming a nurse isn't TIME, it's getting accepted into a program. Soooooo, if Dorothy attended a tech high school with a nursing specialty and was already essentially a CNA, then yes, she could easily finish school and be a working RN at 20

[sjohnson]

Dorothy accused the Wizard of being a fraud for his style of talking, his clothing and, horribile dictu, *a wig*....Plainly we are to take this as insightful and honest, a heroine confronting the villain. I suppose the bottom line is we are to accept this.

Edited February 6, 2017 by sjohnson

[Mojeaux]

1 hour ago, zumpie said:

but doesn't know to make bullets, even though that's much more primitive technology

He told somebody (can't remember if it was Anna or Ev) what they were made of and he wanted Ev to start making them. She demanded the gun, which is a much more difficult thing to replicate. I inferred that he could teach them how to make the bullets, but he couldn't make the gun. Dorothy's will be the pattern.

[sjohnson]

Strictly speaking, that was a cartridge, not a bullet. And it almost certainly did not use black powder but smokeless powder, probably based, I gather, on nitrocellulose. The fantastic part is not that the Wizard couldn't devise the prototypes on his own, but that Ev could copy them. Steampunk is a style of set design, not a real idea. I think it all traces back to Disney's Twenty Thousand Leagues Beneath the Sea. The Wizard did indeed refer to the components of black powder. But the solid particles produced by that propellant would probably quickly foul the barrel of a gun closely modeled on the one Dorothy was carrying. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by sjohnson

[dargosmydaddy]

12 hours ago, Ariah said:

Lucas himself remembers Roan transporting young witches, being stopped by the Guard, the witches panicking and causing some of the soldiers to bleed from their eyes which resulted in them attacking Roan, Roan defending himself and killing some of the guards in the process before being stabbed by Toby, ordering the girls to run and taking Glinda's Pill of Forgetfulness [TM].

I liked your whole explanation of the various perspectives and Toby & co. covering for themselves, but did the dead soldiers really bleed from the eyes? I didn't see that (although I guess it might be kind of hard to tell once they covered their eyes.

10 hours ago, sjohnson said:

oby was there but it doesn't mean he knows what happened. It seems very possible Toby thought it was all Rowan's (sp?) doing. It's not entirely clear the survivors got a good look at the girls at all, much less realized they were the ones who attacked the soldiers.

And that goes back to my original issue-- the men weren't stabbed! Even if they did bleed from the eyes, surely they can tell that wasn't Roan's doing. Unless they think he's the magical one, but I didn't get that sense at all. You'd think that would be something they would report, or just kill Roan outright for.

And I can see how that might be what the show is going for (that the girls manages to run off without anyone seeing), but how do ten or so small girls really run off without anyone noticing? Roan didn't tell them to run until after they'd killed most of the men and he'd been stabbed, right? I could see maybe a couple being able to sneak away, but you'd think the movements of that many would be noticeable. And that the soldiers would pursue them (even if they didn't think they were the attackers, the fact that Roan was willing to kill for them and was telling them to run wasn't at all suspicious?).

Sigh... I think I'm trying to rationalize things that the show just didn't bother to put that much forethought into.

[zumpie]

4 hours ago, Mojeaux said:

5 hours ago, zumpie said:

but doesn't know to make bullets, even though that's much more primitive technology

He told somebody (can't remember if it was Anna or Ev) what they were made of and he wanted Ev to start making them. She demanded the gun, which is a much more difficult thing to replicate. I inferred that he could teach them how to make the bullets, but he couldn't make the gun. Dorothy's will be the pattern.

And my point is, he needed a prototype and hadn't already thought to make them---when this would've bee a way to have subjugated everyone, all along. Again, bullets and guns firing saltpeter or gun powder are VERY primitive.

And it isn't a "steam punk as a set design concept issue" it's an "engineers figured out rudimentary manufacture of this centuries ago (seriously, like I said, this is roughly 16th century stuff)---so why hadn't he already implemented that "science" into Oz?

If it were about a more advanced bullet, sure....but basic firearms? Should already be there.

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Strictly speaking, that was a cartridge, not a bullet. And it almost certainly did not use black powder but smokeless powder, probably based, I gather, on nitrocellulose. The fantastic part is not that the Wizard couldn't devise the prototypes on his own, but that Ev could copy them. Steampunk is a style of set design, not a real idea. I think it all traces back to Disney's Twenty Thousand Leagues Beneath the Sea. The Wizard did indeed refer to the components of black powder. But the solid particles produced by that propellant would probably quickly foul the barrel of a gun closely modeled on the one Dorothy was carrying. 

Addressed that. My point isn't about "steampunk" it's about how an actually centuries old technology (he could've had guns or canons without modern bullets, just basic bullets) that he never even thought to implement----even though he runs a police state and is supposedly pro-science

[Camera One]

If Jane is the main "scientist" in Ev, maybe she won't readily agree to make guns.  

[Snarkette]

The whole witch thing. There are orphanages, convents, cardinal witches, and "Mother South", who would not have been the genetic mother of those three sisters, right? So is it possible that one or all cardinalities can imbue young girls with witchitude, and those were the ones we saw Lucas guarding in the wagon?

That wagon of wee witches seemed to not have much control, so I'd think they get witched in batches and those girls were freshly enwitched. It looks like adjustment to witchness is difficult. Sylvie doesn't seem to have a lot of control over getting other people totally stoned. And where did her shell earplugs come from?

Munchkin Chieftess seemed to be a witch or at least a magic user and I doubt they bring aboriginal first people OZzies into the orphanage system so maybe there are different strains of magic?

There is no way Dorothy could have gone through any Mother South process as she left Oz very early, didn't she? And she didn't return until she was 20ish, and then the gauntlets jumped to her when she talked West (it was West, wasn't it? I get so confused with those two) into self harm. So how does she fit into the magic system?

And is magic and witchery an entirely female thing? Have we seen any men as magic users? Kind of a bitter disappointment for Frank Morgan if so, to be transported to a world with magic and then be excluded by his gender. The flashbacks in the ep confused me. How did he know they would be transported to Oz? (Did he know?) And when did the beast thing happen? When did Karen Chapman return with Dorothy?

I enjoyed the episode but I'm more confused after than before.

(I secretly like Lady Ev. She's selfish and mean but she's entertaining.)

[Tim Thomason]

Battery-making is also something that can be learned by laymen. Something about Oz gave at least these two "normals" (Frank and Jane) abnormal abilities to manifest clockwork people (Jane) or flying monkey drones (Frank, unless he was just relying on Glinda's orphans to make those). I believe the show when it says that magic can only be practiced by those bred for it, but it's still something 'natural' that can be utilized by those with some scientific background.

The story of how Frank went from being a practical prisoner of the Munja'Kins awaiting East's arrival to overthrowing their King and using "science" to destroy all witches and maintain a puppet state is still one of the show's biggest mysteries. We have A and C, but no idea what B is made of. I gather that Nahara and her probable control over the rock creatures is involved, but how he gained control over her in the first place is up to question.

And the line from Jane was something akin to "East would rather have us dead, but says we must leave to banish the coming Beast." This indicates, to me, that execution of any of the 'interlopers' would doom Oz (and Ev) to destruction by the Beast Forever. The Cardinals may have survived previous encounters, barely, enough to know that the return of any interlopers is the only way to placate the Beast. Killing the Wizard was never an option. Only banishment was (did he send Dorothy in his stead? What of Jane?).

I expect we'll see more flashbacks to the magical events of the late 1990s.

And, also, I don't think it ever occurred to Frank to manufacture bullets and guns. Partially because he may not have known more about it than basic chemical composition, and perhaps because that would be making a weapon that the locals could use to overthrow him one day.

[AzureOwl]

17 hours ago, zumpie said:

....but I'm dying to learn what devastated Karen so significantly that she went from a research doctor to a trailerite who couldn't even care for her own kid. And how Jane found her way to her secret, deeply subordinate life in Ev.

I don't think Karen turned over Dorothy because she couldn't take care of her. Her entire attitude seemed to indicate that she gave up Dorothy because someone was after her on Earth. 

Remember the situation Dorothy walked into the night she got taken to Oz. Karen had set up a sophisticated array of computers to track tornados and some guy had attacked her in her home, leaving her half dead. And even in that situation her first thought was to get Dorothy to leave. And even before that, the research facility was looking into using tornados to create energy?

There's a huge unknown variable on the Earth side of this equation that we are not considering. 

Quote

Additionally, I take issue with Frank's science applications (he appears to be some sort of research assistant, typically a position which can require anywhere from no higher ed degree to at least a master's....but the implication is he's an unskilled tech) is: he's able to rig a primitive electrical system (something that would've been somewhat advanced less than 200 years ago)----but doesn't know to make bullets, even though that's much more primitive technology (literally heat, a simple mold and lead----and early guns were more like mini cannons) and, since they already have armor, etc---one that they could've replicated long ago.

Making a proper gun barrel that will not crack when fired requires a great deal of metallurgical know-how that probably wasn't included in Frank array of knowledge. 

Another thing to consider is that technological development in this world is very uneven. While the lands ruled by the Emerald City appear to be at a medieval level with some electrical lighting tacked on, the kingdom of Ev seems to have already undergone an industrial revolution, having electrical lighting in every building and a monorail system in place. 

I could very well see Frank making the calculation that if he introduced the concept of gunpowder weapons to Oz, the Evians could take the concept through industrial espionage and run with it. 

13 hours ago, zumpie said:

And my point is, he needed a prototype and hadn't already thought to make them---when this would've bee a way to have subjugated everyone, all along. Again, bullets and guns firing saltpeter or gun powder are VERY primitive.

And it isn't a "steam punk as a set design concept issue" it's an "engineers figured out rudimentary manufacture of this centuries ago (seriously, like I said, this is roughly 16th century stuff)---so why hadn't he already implemented that "science" into Oz?

If it were about a more advanced bullet, sure....but basic firearms? Should already be there.

Addressed that. My point isn't about "steampunk" it's about how an actually centuries old technology (he could've had guns or canons without modern bullets, just basic bullets) that he never even thought to implement----even though he runs a police state and is supposedly pro-science

The Wizard made the point that Ev has factories that can mass produce the weapons while the Emerald City's domains do not. Frank seems to have devoted most of his energies since his takeover to consolidating his power and dismantling the framework of the old power structure while maintaining power though his bluff about being able to control the Stone Giants. 

As I said above, Frank may have made the calculation that the risk of Ev getting access to firearms technology would outweigh the benefits of having a firearm equipped army. Especially when it seems that the Wizard's Guard is perfectly capable of enforcing Frank's rule with the equipment they have. 

A final detail to consider is that before Dorothy's arrival, Frank had no reason to believe that a bullet would be any more effective at killing a witch than a sword would be. And I'm not even sure it is. We still don't know if Mistress East died because she was shot in the head or because the gunshot was self-inflicted. 

8 hours ago, Snarkette said:

The whole witch thing. There are orphanages, convents, cardinal witches, and "Mother South", who would not have been the genetic mother of those three sisters, right? So is it possible that one or all cardinalities can imbue young girls with witchitude, and those were the ones we saw Lucas guarding in the wagon?

Mistress West said that Mother South did give birth to over a 1,000 daughters. The difference in appearance between the witches may be attributable to them getting their looks from their fathers and their magic from their mother.

Quote

The flashbacks in the ep confused me. How did he know they would be transported to Oz? (Did he know?) And when did the beast thing happen? When did Karen Chapman return with Dorothy?

As I said above, there's a variable on the Earth side of the equation that hasn't been shown to us clearly. Someone on Earth has been chasing Karen Chapman for 2 decades. Frank claims to have had foreknowledge about Oz before the accident. What connection if any does the group that employed them all to create the vortex generator has to those two facts?

It all screams to me of laying the groundwork for a second season of the show. There's a player hidden in the shadows that hasn't been revealed yet.

Edited February 7, 2017 by AzureOwl

[sjohnson]

I had assumed, foolishly perhaps, the witches found the portal in Nimbo. (And Sylvie's portal was destroyed before she could get through.) Quite true about the lack of sword wounds on most of the supposed victims of Rowan's attack. At this point, maybe it's just that the show is painting "Lucas" as a victim. Offhand, doesn't seem like that can be fanwanked.

As to the inconsistencies in the tech, that seems to me to be a symptomatic feature of steampunk. Guns are modern looking but Jack's mechanical heart looks old-timey. So, Ev has no guns but does have trains, which are also old-timey (as are zeppelins.) It's all about surface appearances as compared to now, coherence be damned. My opinion only of course.

As to why the Wizard hasn't already instituted more primitive guns? It's actually an objective indication he's not that vicious, but of course that plainly contradicts the show's obvious understanding that he's the worst human being who ever lived.

K. Chapman watching tornadoes suggests she was afraid of being attacked from Oz. If the Wizard really does have his own vortex chamber, he could have snatched his beloved years ago. In fact, I would assume that was the case were it not for the tornado in East's castle, and Dorothy's appearance in adjacent Munchkinland. 

Apparently I am still alone in thinking it would be foolish to trust East. Sorry, no, I'm not impressed with Jane's smarts outside of her field. 

As near as I can make out, Frank was the IT guy, which means totally essential and perfectly contemptible. 

[zumpie]

14 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

On 2/6/2017 at 3:30 PM, zumpie said:

....but I'm dying to learn what devastated Karen so significantly that she went from a research doctor to a trailerite who couldn't even care for her own kid. And how Jane found her way to her secret, deeply subordinate life in Ev.

I don't think Karen turned over Dorothy because she couldn't take care of her. Her entire attitude seemed to indicate that she gave up Dorothy because someone was after her on Earth. 

Remember the situation Dorothy walked into the night she got taken to Oz. Karen had set up a sophisticated array of computers to track tornados and some guy had attacked her in her home, leaving her half dead. And even in that situation her first thought was to get Dorothy to leave. And even before that, the research facility was looking into using tornados to create energy?

There's a huge unknown variable on the Earth side of this equation that we are not considering. 

Quote

Additionally, I take issue with Frank's science applications (he appears to be some sort of research assistant, typically a position which can require anywhere from no higher ed degree to at least a master's....but the implication is he's an unskilled tech) is: he's able to rig a primitive electrical system (something that would've been somewhat advanced less than 200 years ago)----but doesn't know to make bullets, even though that's much more primitive technology (literally heat, a simple mold and lead----and early guns were more like mini cannons) and, since they already have armor, etc---one that they could've replicated long ago.

Making a proper gun barrel that will not crack when fired requires a great deal of metallurgical know-how that probably wasn't included in Frank array of knowledge. 

Another thing to consider is that technological development in this world is very uneven. While the lands ruled by the Emerald City appear to be at a medieval level with some electrical lighting tacked on, the kingdom of Ev seems to have already undergone an industrial revolution, having electrical lighting in every building and a monorail system in place. 

I could very well see Frank making the calculation that if he introduced the concept of gunpowder weapons to Oz, the Evians could take the concept through industrial espionage and run with it. 

On 2/6/2017 at 6:47 PM, zumpie said:

And my point is, he needed a prototype and hadn't already thought to make them---when this would've bee a way to have subjugated everyone, all along. Again, bullets and guns firing saltpeter or gun powder are VERY primitive.

And it isn't a "steam punk as a set design concept issue" it's an "engineers figured out rudimentary manufacture of this centuries ago (seriously, like I said, this is roughly 16th century stuff)---so why hadn't he already implemented that "science" into Oz?

If it were about a more advanced bullet, sure....but basic firearms? Should already be there.

Addressed that. My point isn't about "steampunk" it's about how an actually centuries old technology (he could've had guns or canons without modern bullets, just basic bullets) that he never even thought to implement----even though he runs a police state and is supposedly pro-science

The Wizard made the point that Ev has factories that can mass produce the weapons while the Emerald City's domains do not. Frank seems to have devoted most of his energies since his takeover to consolidating his power and dismantling the framework of the old power structure while maintaining power though his bluff about being able to control the Stone Giants. 

As I said above, Frank may have made the calculation that the risk of Ev getting access to firearms technology would outweigh the benefits of having a firearm equipped army. Especially when it seems that the Wizard's Guard is perfectly capable of enforcing Frank's rule with the equipment they have. 

A final detail to consider is that before Dorothy's arrival, Frank had no reason to believe that a bullet would be any more effective at killing a witch than a sword would be. And I'm not even sure it is. We still don't know if Mistress East died because she was shot in the head or because the gunshot was self-inflicted. 

23 hours ago, Snarkette said:

The whole witch thing. There are orphanages, convents, cardinal witches, and "Mother South", who would not have been the genetic mother of those three sisters, right? So is it possible that one or all cardinalities can imbue young girls with witchitude, and those were the ones we saw Lucas guarding in the wagon?

Mistress West said that Mother South did give birth to over a 1,000 daughters. The difference in appearance between the witches may be attributable to them getting their looks from their fathers and their magic from their mother.

Quote

The flashbacks in the ep confused me. How did he know they would be transported to Oz? (Did he know?) And when did the beast thing happen? When did Karen Chapman return with Dorothy?

As I said above, there's a variable on the Earth side of the equation that hasn't been shown to us clearly. Someone on Earth has been chasing Karen Chapman for 2 decades. Frank claims to have had foreknowledge about Oz before the accident. What connection if any does the group that employed them all to create the vortex generator has to those two facts?

It all screams to me of laying the groundwork for a second season of the show. There's a player hidden in the shadows that hasn't been revealed yet.

You missed my points: A) bullets can be easily produced with the technology even Oz, let alone Ev possesses (as I said a primitive mold, lead and heat----if they can create armor, they can create bullets. Particularly for a more primitive firearm, which they would ALSO be able to create). B) Why has he never thought of this over the past 20 years?

22 hours ago, Tim Thomason said:

Battery-making is also something that can be learned by laymen. Something about Oz gave at least these two "normals" (Frank and Jane) abnormal abilities to manifest clockwork people (Jane) or flying monkey drones (Frank, unless he was just relying on Glinda's orphans to make those). I believe the show when it says that magic can only be practiced by those bred for it, but it's still something 'natural' that can be utilized by those with some scientific background.

The story of how Frank went from being a practical prisoner of the Munja'Kins awaiting East's arrival to overthrowing their King and using "science" to destroy all witches and maintain a puppet state is still one of the show's biggest mysteries. We have A and C, but no idea what B is made of. I gather that Nahara and her probable control over the rock creatures is involved, but how he gained control over her in the first place is up to question.

And the line from Jane was something akin to "East would rather have us dead, but says we must leave to banish the coming Beast." This indicates, to me, that execution of any of the 'interlopers' would doom Oz (and Ev) to destruction by the Beast Forever. The Cardinals may have survived previous encounters, barely, enough to know that the return of any interlopers is the only way to placate the Beast. Killing the Wizard was never an option. Only banishment was (did he send Dorothy in his stead? What of Jane?).

I expect we'll see more flashbacks to the magical events of the late 1990s.

And, also, I don't think it ever occurred to Frank to manufacture bullets and guns. Partially because he may not have known more about it than basic chemical composition, and perhaps because that would be making a weapon that the locals could use to overthrow him one day.

If I were seeking to create my own police state and came from a world with guns, knew the basics behind their simpler versions (and yes, this is something ANYONE who understands basic technology could figure out), etc---guns would be the FIRST things I'd look to create. Also, since he's hot to create them, now, clearly he doesn't fear them "getting into the wrong hands".

And for the record, I'm hugely anti-gun and don't have a smelter, however, I'd definitely want them if I were Frank. Very clear and simple concept to me.

[aradia22]

I still find Dorothy pretty annoying. I don't really see how they're going to come back from that. They're putting her pretty firmly in that camp of characters who makes poor decisions but feels super self-righteous and heroic all the time.

I don't know if they are expecting us to sympathize with the Wizard/Frank but he seems pretty unredeemable at this point. They've gone from an arrogant despot with bombast and empty promises hiding his lack of real power and legitimacy to crazy guy who... what? felt so threatened by having professional women working above him (and maybe jealous of Roberto) that he rigged dangerous equipment to fail and got them swept up in a man-made natural disaster? Thinking he'd "found this new world here" where there was already a whole society also wasn't great though probably intentional. All I've got now is that we're supposed to feel bad for him because Anna "betrayed" him but... eh? 

I think the actor who plays Eamonn might be legitimately good. I mean, it's not amazing but given the kind of gruff not terribly talkative guy he was cast as, I think he could have fit in as a lesser character of Game of Thrones or something.

How many times are they going to have Lucas/Roan shirtless for no reason thinking we won't notice what they're doing?

The magic wasn't as good as last episode or one of the early episodes but I do appreciate having a little creativity in the variety of spells. 

I don't get Jack/Tip/Langiwedere right now. It's like last episode didn't happen and Langiwidere is back to her old self. And Jack and Tip just seems like some weird teen drama stuff superimposed on this complicated situation. Now she loves him? And when are they ever going to explain how "they grew up together" when Tip was locked in that room?

I knew they weren't going to let Lucas be a legitimate villain. I'm not mad at it but since it's tied to Dorothy, it gets a little annoying.

I think Glinda going to war is more interesting right now than anything with the Beast Forever.

I liked Elizabeth playing a larger role though I didn't enjoy Anna getting shot as much as Dorothy getting tortured last episode because Anna hasn't been that annoying. She's just been a mouthpiece for the writers to explain things without doing any work. It would have been nice if she'd been able to stop Lucas from taking Dorothy with them. I continue to struggle with how, for the most part, everyone's just doing what they want with no consequences.

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Also, the more they make the Wizard stupid, incompetent, blatantly untrustworthy it becomes very hard to believe he succeeded in conquering anything. No doubt Glinda's Council has mostly run things by manipulating this petty boob.

I actually agree with this part. Before he was just barking orders and awkwardly scheming (making West doubt herself before the funeral wasn't the height of deviousness). But with the visitors from Ev showing up we see how truly awful he is at any sort of diplomacy. I think he's been there since 1996 though we're not exactly sure when he came to power. How did he manage to run things for so long? Maybe aside from "no magic" there aren't a lot of policy decisions he needs to concern himself with? Also, what innovations did he bring? Outside of Ev, it doesn't seem like they have electricity or wind power or glass windows or guns. He just keeps talking about "science." What science?

I also agree that Tip pushed Jack somewhat intentionally. I don't think she was trying to kill him. But I do think they went overboard with the drama in that scene. She wasn't just pushing him away after he kissed her. She was being actively aggressive. Maybe she just forgot that it wasn't the best location for throwing someone off balance but I do think she was trying to hurt him. It felt like a kind of male posturing that made sense for someone who, until recently, saw themselves as a teenage boy.

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I don't have issues, per se, with Dorothy turning over the gun (for all we know, she has another----or something)....but I'm dying to learn what devastated Karen so significantly that she went from a research doctor to a trailerite who couldn't even care for her own kid. And how Jane found her way to her secret, deeply subordinate life in Ev.

I'm not so quick to write off Karen. When was she working at a laundromat? Anyway, she had all those screens in her trailer and she seemed to be tracking the weather. She might have been traumatized by the accident and Frank and her time in Oz but we don't know that she had some sort of breakdown. From what we know, assuming she wasn't part of some larger group, I'd guess she was somewhere between a storm tracker and a conspiracy nut when we see her in the present. And all we know is she's been out of Dorothy's life. We don't know what her job situation has been like or what she's been doing all this time.

[sjohnson]

7 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

?I also agree that Tip pushed Jack somewhat intentionally. I don't think she was trying to kill him. But I do think they went overboard with the drama in that scene. She wasn't just pushing him away after he kissed her. She was being actively aggressive. Maybe she just forgot that it wasn't the best location for throwing someone off balance but I do think she was trying to hurt him. It felt like a kind of male posturing that made sense for someone who, until recently, saw themselves as a teenage boy.

As in, she was trying to knock him against the railing to bang him up good? And she was shocked he went over instead of getting a bump on the noggin? That does fit what I saw. 

Quite aside from the problem of making the Wizard the Big Bad when the Beast Forever has the kill count and power to qualify, the Wizard is too Little to be the Big Bad. Or so it seems to me. The Wizard as charlatan seems ripe for anti-villain or anti-hero, but it sure seems like the show has doubled down on Supervillainy without any Super.

[zumpie]

  Quote

Also, the more they make the Wizard stupid, incompetent, blatantly untrustworthy it becomes very hard to believe he succeeded in conquering anything. No doubt Glinda's Council has mostly run things by manipulating this petty boob.

I actually agree with this part. Before he was just barking orders and awkwardly scheming (making West doubt herself before the funeral wasn't the height of deviousness). But with the visitors from Ev showing up we see how truly awful he is at any sort of diplomacy. I think he's been there since 1996 though we're not exactly sure when he came to power. How did he manage to run things for so long? Maybe aside from "no magic" there aren't a lot of policy decisions he needs to concern himself with? Also, what innovations did he bring? Outside of Ev, it doesn't seem like they have electricity or wind power or glass windows or guns. He just keeps talking about "science." What science?

I also agree that Tip pushed Jack somewhat intentionally. I don't think she was trying to kill him. But I do think they went overboard with the drama in that scene. She wasn't just pushing him away after he kissed her. She was being actively aggressive. Maybe she just forgot that it wasn't the best location for throwing someone off balance but I do think she was trying to hurt him. It felt like a kind of male posturing that made sense for someone who, until recently, saw themselves as a teenage boy.

  Quote

I don't have issues, per se, with Dorothy turning over the gun (for all we know, she has another----or something)....but I'm dying to learn what devastated Karen so significantly that she went from a research doctor to a trailerite who couldn't even care for her own kid. And how Jane found her way to her secret, deeply subordinate life in Ev.

I'm not so quick to write off Karen. When was she working at a laundromat? Anyway, she had all those screens in her trailer and she seemed to be tracking the weather. She might have been traumatized by the accident and Frank and her time in Oz but we don't know that she had some sort of breakdown. From what we know, assuming she wasn't part of some larger group, I'd guess she was somewhere between a storm tracker and a conspiracy nut when we see her in the present. And all we know is she's been out of Dorothy's life. We don't know what her job situation has been like or what she's been doing all this time.

I never said she (or anyone) worked in a laundromat---however, living in a trailer, but making yourself available and known to the child you left at someone else's doorstep and had minimal contact, while remaining in the same locale is very, very weird.

She appeared perfectly devoted to Dorothy while in Oz....then (it would appear) shortly after giving birth, unceremoniously dumped her----but made it apparent she was her mother. Also, she could be a storm tracker/conspiracy nut and still have her kid with her. So there's considerably more.

A trailer isn't safe and has a significant lower class connotation---which is why they picked that for her living quarters

[aradia22]

Quote

Quite aside from the problem of making the Wizard the Big Bad when the Beast Forever has the kill count and power to qualify, the Wizard is too Little to be the Big Bad. Or so it seems to me. The Wizard as charlatan seems ripe for anti-villain or anti-hero, but it sure seems like the show has doubled down on Supervillainy without any Super.

I think this is where I am. I don't find him as sympathetic or as open to anti-villain or anti-hero status. I think you can be plenty evil even if you're bad at it or not very powerful. But he's not a great villain without the "super." There are some vaguely thematically interesting things happening but I've yet to see the justification of how he's maintained his power all these years, how he's governed effectively, how he's implemented any scientific advances, etc.

Quote

I never said she (or anyone) worked in a laundromat---however, living in a trailer, but making yourself available and known to the child you left at someone else's doorstep and had minimal contact, while remaining in the same locale is very, very weird. 

Sorry if it seemed like I implied you said that. I took the laundromat thing from Senna's comment on page 1. I do think that we only know that Karen recently moved back to town shortly before episode 1. So I'm just pointing out that we don't know that she's been living in the trailer the whole time or really anything about her life between dropping off Dorothy in Lucas, Kansas and that point. 

[Mojeaux]

13 hours ago, Snarkette said:

(I secretly like Lady Ev. She's selfish and mean but she's entertaining.)

Same.

[AzureOwl]

6 hours ago, zumpie said:

You missed my points: A) bullets can be easily produced with the technology even Oz, let alone Ev possesses (as I said a primitive mold, lead and heat----if they can create armor, they can create bullets. Particularly for a more primitive firearm, which they would ALSO be able to create). B) Why has he never thought of this over the past 20 years?

Not unless you are already familiar with them or have some models at hand to reverse engineer. Frank was obviously familiar with the concept and theory but there's nothing to indicate he was familiar with the practical aspects of firearms. Hell, the recipe he gave Langwidere was for black powder, not the smokeless powder that cartridge uses!  

As a matter of fact, the trope of the time traveler cooking up guns to give himself a leg up against his more primitive enemies had already been deconstructed as far back as 1941 when L. Sprague de Camp published Lest Darkness Fall. In the novel Martin Padway fails miserably in his attempts to make reliable gunpowder and bronze canon because he lacks the practical know-how or the attending infrastructure to help him. 

For Frank to be able to produce a gunpowder mill from scratch, he would've had to have, not only practical knowledge of firearms, but knowledge of the history of the development of firearms, so that he would know how to make them without pre-existing infrastructure. You can take the most ardent gun nut in the USA and ask him to build a musket... and he will fail miserably. Author S.M. Stirling for example, when commenting on Lest Darkness Fall has pointed out that because the history of technology is his hobby he really could build a gunpowder mill from scratch, given some helpers and enough money to fiddle around for six months or so. We have no evidence that Frank has a similar knowledge. His field of expertise seems to be as an electrical engineering or systems engineering.  

So that leaves out the Emerald City manufacturing them. I agree that Ev seems to have the technological level and infrastructure to manufacture them, but as I said earlier, Frank would be well aware that they could be easily turned against him.

6 hours ago, zumpie said:

If I were seeking to create my own police state and came from a world with guns, knew the basics behind their simpler versions (and yes, this is something ANYONE who understands basic technology could figure out), etc---guns would be the FIRST things I'd look to create. Also, since he's hot to create them, now, clearly he doesn't fear them "getting into the wrong hands".

And for the record, I'm hugely anti-gun and don't have a smelter, however, I'd definitely want them if I were Frank. Very clear and simple concept to me.

I've already explained why making guns from scratch is not as simple as you seem to believe. As for your point of why is he making them now, he is simply desperate. The Best Forever is coming and Glinda is plotting against him. Ev turning on him as soon as they have guns is still a risk but less immediate than the other two.

Edited February 7, 2017 by AzureOwl
Spelling.

[zumpie]

5 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

12 hours ago, zumpie said:

You missed my points: A) bullets can be easily produced with the technology even Oz, let alone Ev possesses (as I said a primitive mold, lead and heat----if they can create armor, they can create bullets. Particularly for a more primitive firearm, which they would ALSO be able to create). B) Why has he never thought of this over the past 20 years?

Not unless you are already familiar with them or have some models at hand to reverse engineer. Frank was obviously familiar with the concept and theory but there's nothing to indicate he was familiar with the practical aspects of firearms. Hell, the recipe he gave Langwidere was for black powder, not the smokeless powder that cartridge uses.   

As a matter of fact, the trope of the time traveler cooking up guns to give himself a leg up against his more primitive enemies had already been deconstructed as far back as 1941 when L. Sprague de Camp published Lest Darkness Fall. In the novel Martin Padway fails miserably in his attempts to make reliable gunpowder and bronze canon because he lacks the practical know-how or the attending infrastructure to help him. 

For Frank to be able to produce a gunpowder mill from scratch, he would've had to have, not only practical knowledge of firearms, but knowledge of the history of the development of firearms, so that he would know how to make them without pre-existing infrastructure. You can take the most ardent gun nut in the USA and ask him to build a musket... and he will fail miserably. Author S.M. Stirling for example, when commenting on Lest Darkness Fall has pointed out that because the history of technology is his hobby he really could build a gunpowder mill from scratch, given some helpers and enough money to fiddle around for six months or so. We have no evidence that Frank has a similar knowledge. His field of expertise seems to be as an electrical engineer or systems engineer.  

So that leaves out the Emerald City manufacturing them. I agree that Ev seems to have the technological level and infrastructure to manufacture them, but as I said earlier, Frank would be well aware that they could be easily turned against him.

12 hours ago, zumpie said:

If I were seeking to create my own police state and came from a world with guns, knew the basics behind their simpler versions (and yes, this is something ANYONE who understands basic technology could figure out), etc---guns would be the FIRST things I'd look to create. Also, since he's hot to create them, now, clearly he doesn't fear them "getting into the wrong hands".

And for the record, I'm hugely anti-gun and don't have a smelter, however, I'd definitely want them if I were Frank. Very clear and simple concept to me.

I've already explained why making guns from scratch is not as simple as you seem to believe. As for your point of why is he making them now, he is simply desperate. The Best Forever is coming and Glinda is plotting against him. Ev turning on him as soon as they have guns is still a risk but less immediate than the other two.

And yet the internet is FIllED with make your own bullets and firearms, during the American Revolution, ladies groups made saltpeter (which was used in muskets) and 400-500 years ago, the average blacksmith (same guy who smelts armor, FYI) made pistols and canons.

In fact the first firearms date back to 13th century China. So yes, a guy who apparently has armories/smithies capable of forging swords and armory already has the technology to create firearms. In fact, firearms and gunpowder were in use when armor was still just chain mail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm

As to "guns getting into the wrong hands", I thought about that, as well----they already have weapons (swords, etc), that could just as easily be used against them, but they're managed to keep their police state intact, even though lesser weapons like pitchforks or homemade bows could be fashioned and, with enough people resisting, overpower them.....so the "what if someone who isn't a soldier got a gun?" theory also doesn't hold water.

Either Frank simply didn't think of it (unlikely, given how immediately jazzed he was) or it's, most likely, a big glaring plot hole that an intern didn't bother to research.

 

Oh also. I don't think an early midcentury Sci-fi novel is exactly the definitive source on what can and can't be done. Especially when we have 700-800 years of history to contradict that.

[aradia22]

Quote

For Frank to be able to produce a gunpowder mill from scratch, he would've had to have, not only practical knowledge of firearms, but knowledge of the history of the development of firearms, so that he would know how to make them without pre-existing infrastructure. You can take the most ardent gun nut in the USA and ask him to build a musket... and he will fail miserably. Author S.M. Stirling for example, when commenting on Lest Darkness Fall has pointed out that because the history of technology is his hobby he really could build a gunpowder mill from scratch, given some helpers and enough money to fiddle around for six months or so. We have no evidence that Frank has a similar knowledge. His field of expertise seems to be as an electrical engineering or systems engineering.

That reminds me of something. In one of Anna's first scenes she's reading about the Wizard's "science" and he asks if she finds it overwhelming and she says no. They came to Oz with nothing. And as far as we know, they haven't been making trips back and forth... unless Karen has and was bringing books with her. So how are there scientific books in Oz? Did Frank write them? Are there even books or was that just some weird bonding dialogue no one thought to check over?

[AzureOwl]

1 hour ago, zumpie said:

And yet the internet is FIllED with make your own bullets and firearms, during the American Revolution, ladies groups made saltpeter (which was used in muskets) and 400-500 years ago, the average blacksmith (same guy who smelts armor, FYI) made pistols and canons.

In fact the first firearms date back to 13th century China. So yes, a guy who apparently has armories/smithies capable of forging swords and armory already has the technology to create firearms. In fact, firearms and gunpowder were in use when armor was still just chain mail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm

And if Frank had access to all those YouTube videos, the situation would be quite different. But he doesn't.

Capability without know-how is less than useless.

Those ladies' groups in the American Revolution could make saltpeter only because someone taught them how. Yes, blacksmiths could replicate a gun... if you showed them one. But try to get them to do it just from a description and they would fail again and again and again. 

Yes, ancient and medieval metalworkers had the capability to manufacture guns, but it took centuries upon centuries of trial and error before they could create a portable weapon that could be more reliable and accurate than a bow or a crossbow. The reason firearms were in use at the same time as chainmail was because those guns sucked.

Frank can't skip that process and give them designs that work, because he doesn't have the diagrams and he obviously doesn't know them from memory. 

Quote

 

As to "guns getting into the wrong hands", I thought about that, as well----they already have weapons (swords, etc), that could just as easily be used against them, but they're managed to keep their police state intact, even though lesser weapons like pitchforks or homemade bows could be fashioned and, with enough people resisting, overpower them.....so the "what if someone who isn't a soldier got a gun?" theory also doesn't hold water.

Either Frank simply didn't think of it (unlikely, given how immediately jazzed he was) or it's, most likely, a big glaring plot hole that an intern didn't bother to research.

 

That is not what I am saying at all, and it's very disingenuous of you to pretend that it is. There is a big difference between regular people getting the guns and using them against the Wizard's Guard, and a foreign power acquiring the technology and equipping their military with it.  

Ev is clearly and independent kingdom, with its own army. Langwidere threatened to attack the Emerald City with it in this very episode. 

Frank would not have to be worried about some rifles falling in the hands of malcontents in his own domain, but an industrial power on his borders mass-producing the things? That is entirely a different tune.

1 hour ago, zumpie said:

Oh also. I don't think an early midcentury Sci-fi novel is exactly the definitive source on what can and can't be done. Especially when we have 700-800 years of history to contradict that.

Not the definitive source on what can and can't be done, but one of the earliest examples of the glaring holes in the line of thinking you are proposing. 

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

That reminds me of something. In one of Anna's first scenes she's reading about the Wizard's "science" and he asks if she finds it overwhelming and she says no. They came to Oz with nothing. And as far as we know, they haven't been making trips back and forth... unless Karen has and was bringing books with her. So how are there scientific books in Oz? Did Frank write them? Are there even books or was that just some weird bonding dialogue no one thought to check over?

The implication seems to be that Frank has been teaching them from memory and writing books and manuals for them.

[zumpie]

  2 hours ago, zumpie said:

And yet the internet is FIllED with make your own bullets and firearms, during the American Revolution, ladies groups made saltpeter (which was used in muskets) and 400-500 years ago, the average blacksmith (same guy who smelts armor, FYI) made pistols and canons.

In fact the first firearms date back to 13th century China. So yes, a guy who apparently has armories/smithies capable of forging swords and armory already has the technology to create firearms. In fact, firearms and gunpowder were in use when armor was still just chain mail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm

And if Frank had access to all those YouTube videos, the situation would be quite different. But he doesn't.

Capability without know-how is less than useless.

Those ladies' groups in the American Revolution could make saltpeter only because someone taught them how. Yes, blacksmiths could replicate a gun... if you showed them one. But try to get them to do it just from a description and they would fail again and again and again. 

Yes, ancient and medieval metalworkers had the capability to manufacture guns, but it took centuries upon centuries of trial and error before they could create a portable weapon that could be more reliable and accurate than a bow or a crossbow. The reason firearms were in use at the same time as chainmail was because those guns sucked.

Frank can't skip that process and give them designs that work, because he doesn't have the diagrams and he obviously doesn't know them from memory. 

  Quote

 

As to "guns getting into the wrong hands", I thought about that, as well----they already have weapons (swords, etc), that could just as easily be used against them, but they're managed to keep their police state intact, even though lesser weapons like pitchforks or homemade bows could be fashioned and, with enough people resisting, overpower them.....so the "what if someone who isn't a soldier got a gun?" theory also doesn't hold water.

Either Frank simply didn't think of it (unlikely, given how immediately jazzed he was) or it's, most likely, a big glaring plot hole that an intern didn't bother to research.

 

That is not what I am saying at all, and it's very disingenuous of you to pretend that it is. There is a big difference between regular people getting the guns and using them against the Wizard's Guard, and a foreign power acquiring the technology and equipping their military with it.  

Ev is clearly and independent kingdom, with its own army. Langwidere threatened to attack the Emerald City with it in this very episode. 

Frank would not have to be worried about some rifles falling in the hands of malcontents in his own domain, but an industrial power on his borders mass-producing the things? That is entirely a different tune.

  2 hours ago, zumpie said:

Oh also. I don't think an early midcentury Sci-fi novel is exactly the definitive source on what can and can't be done. Especially when we have 700-800 years of history to contradict that.

Not the definitive source on what can and can't be done, but one of the earliest examples of the glaring holes in the line of thinking you are proposing. 

And yet, 800 years ago, in feudal China someone did figure out how to do all of that, as well as much of the engineering principles employed in ancient Rome that are still considered innovative and any person could build on them. He had blacksmiths, he could describe. 20 years is a LOT of time for trial and error----especially when you have an end product already in mind (something they didn't in the middle ages).

Again, they have technology to produce items that coexisted (and even came after) firearms....if they could figure out one, They could figure out the other.

BTW, I don't think I was disingenuous in the least (and it's rude of you to say I was)---you simply overlooked a basic argument against yours---and that WAS how I interpreted your comment.

Lastly, I rely on history, again, you rely on a Sci-Fi novel. Just because something could or couldn't happen in a completely imaginary world proves absolutely nothing.

[Mojeaux]

41 minutes ago, AzureOwl said:

And if Frank had access to all those YouTube videos, the situation would be quite different. But he doesn't.

Capability without know-how is less than useless.

This.

I think it's totally unreasonable to think Frank should or would or could have armed his guards with guns made from scratch just because he could cobble together a AA battery.

[AzureOwl]

46 minutes ago, zumpie said:

And yet, 800 years ago, in feudal China someone did figure out how to do all of that,

No they did not figure it out.

They came up with the first step in a chain of trial and error extending centuries before someone else, half a world away finally ended up with a portable firearm that could effectively replace bows and crossbows. 

as well as much of the engineering principles employed in ancient Rome that are still considered innovative and any person could build on them.

Considered innovative for those who have studied them, and have access to books about them, very few of which have memorize them and are capable of explaining them to a layman who has never even heard of them. 

He had blacksmiths, he could describe.

And he would fail… miserably. A description from somebody who isn't intimately familiar with subject matter isn’t going to be nearly enough for someone completely unfamiliar with the concepts and principles involved.

20 years is a LOT of time for trial and error----especially when you have an end product already in mind (something they didn't in the middle ages).

Not when you have to run a kingdom, stamp out a culture, eradicate and prosecute witches and write all the science books that the High Council uses for their education.

Frank hasn't been sitting in his palace listening to his Walkman for 20 years. 

Again, they have technology to produce items that coexisted (and even came after) firearms....if they could figure out one, They could figure out the other.

One does not correlate with the other. Once again… capability without detailed know-how equals diddly squat.

For instance, right now we know how to make an Orion Drive and have had the capability to make one since the 1960s. And yet because nobody has ever successfully made one before, if we decided to try and build one right now it would probably take us twice as long as Frank has been in Oz to get a functional prototype, let alone mass produce them.

BTW, I don't think I was disingenuous in the least (and it's rude of you to say I was)---you simply overlooked a basic argument against yours---and that WAS how I interpreted your comment.

At all time I talked about Ev getting the guns. At no time did I mention common people taking the guns from the Guards. You created that whole scenario out of whole cloth and put it in my mouth. When someone does that I am entirely entitled to assume they are being disingenuous.

Lastly, I rely on history, again, you rely on a Sci-Fi novel. Just because something could or couldn't happen in a completely imaginary world proves absolutely nothing.

You are not relying on history because the scenario that you propose has never happened.

Never in the history of the world has anyone created a functional firearm based on nothing but a description, without any models to reverse engineer and without detailed instruction of how to do it.

The only cases where this has occurred have taken place in fiction, which is why I brought up Lest Darkness Fall.

[aradia22]

Quote

The implication seems to be that Frank has been teaching them from memory and writing books and manuals for them.

This is more insane to me than the gun issue which is already a little ridiculous in how it's been handled. They've given us very little evidence that Frank is some brilliant genius who deserved to be acknowledged by his superiors/co-workers. He effed with the machinery. That's not a signal that he's any smarter than even Karen or Jane. And given how he's been handling things lately... I just... I'm going to stop now. I don't know exactly where they went wrong writing the Wizard but, at least to me, it's pretty clear that they did. 

[zumpie]

  1 hour ago, AzureOwl said:

And if Frank had access to all those YouTube videos, the situation would be quite different. But he doesn't.

Capability without know-how is less than useless.

This.

I think it's totally unreasonable to think Frank should or would or could have armed his guards with guns made from scratch just because he could cobble together a AA battery.

Again, not Frank, the smithies who already had more than sufficient know how (as per hundreds of years of history---and, again, firearms pre-dating armor---which looks to be about 15th century)---and because why wouldn't he? Not sure why my pointing out a plot hole would generate this much personal affrontage, TBH.

[formerlyfreedom]

Please agree to disagree, and move on; it's going in circles here.

[cooksdelight]

On 2/6/2017 at 3:31 PM, AzureOwl said:

Also, Mistress East was very emphatic that nothing good ever comes from the sky

Frank fell out of the sky, so there ya go. 

[jhlipton]

On 2/7/2017 at 0:48 PM, aradia22 said:

(W)hen are they ever going to explain how "they grew up together" when Tip was locked in that room?

Jack visited every time Moombi went out.

[Wryly]

If I don't see what's under Langwidere's mask soon I may squeeze my remote control until it shatters. Like Malory Archer shattering a glass. She has no right to privacy after she forced Jack to expose himself to Tip, so come on. SHOCK ME. Although, let's be honest. Who DIDN'T want Tip to see what Jack had become. I was like, "Yessss. Look at it, Tip. LOOK AT IT. LOOK WHAT YOUR GENDER ANGST HATH WROUGHT."

Langwidere's lower face looks normal. So does the area around her eyes. What, is she deformed only in the forehead and nose region? Let. Me. See.

[Fireball]

10 hours ago, Wryly said:

Langwidere's lower face looks normal. So does the area around her eyes. What, is she deformed only in the forehead and nose region? Let. Me. See.

If they show that Langwidere's face is completely scared or messed up; I'm going to call foul! Like you said her lower face and the area around her eyes all look normal.

[WearyTraveler]

5 hours ago, Fireball said:

If they show that Langwidere's face is completely scared or messed up; I'm going to call foul! Like you said her lower face and the area around her eyes all look normal.

Maybe the surprise is that her face is absolutely normal and lovely.  Looking at this picture of the character with a mask she actually wore on the show, you can see through it, and nothing appears to be wrong with her face:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/271341946279650884/

[Wryly]

23 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Maybe the surprise is that her face is absolutely normal and lovely.  Looking at this picture of the character with a mask she actually wore on the show, you can see through it, and nothing appears to be wrong with her face:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/271341946279650884/

I paused the show several times on that particular mask and squinted at the screen. The bits of her face I can see through the mask's geometry do seem to look suspiciously normal. Only her nose is obscured. The triangles that comprise the mask's nose are too small to see through. 

On 2/7/2017 at 0:48 PM, aradia22 said:

I don't get Jack/Tip/Langiwedere right now. It's like last episode didn't happen and Langiwidere is back to her old self. And Jack and Tip just seems like some weird teen drama stuff superimposed on this complicated situation. Now she loves him? And when are they ever going to explain how "they grew up together" when Tip was locked in that room?

Yeah, Langwidere was back in "I am the princess -- heel, Jack" mode in this episode. The only explanation I can think of is that she treats Jack differently when they're alone than when they're in front of other people. Moments of truth seem to happen in private. In front of others, she reverts back to pompous princess. I find her interesting when they're alone, and somewhat distasteful when they're not. It's resulting in pretty mixed feelings. I'm not sure if she's a vulnerable person who acts haughty as a defense mechanism, or she really is a capricious princess who's just toying with Jack. Perhaps she's both.

I liked the confrontation between Jack and Tip, personally. I didn't really see Tip's love for Jack as a new development. I thought she always cared about him. She seemed torn up when she thought she killed him, and she tells West that you only really get furious with people you love. As for them growing up together, my impression was that Jack visited Tip in secret throughout their childhood.

I still don't understand why Mombi wanted to keep Tip male.

[pezgirl7]

Regarding Lady Ev and her masks; I had a theory a couple episodes ago that maybe she was like Medusa, and people would turn to stone or something at the sight of her face, not because she was ugly, but because she was so beautiful.

Here's a spoiler about her face, from a TV Guide article about her masks.

Spoiler

From the moment we meet her, her face is hidden from view, for reasons that will become clear by the end of the 10 episodes. (And no, she's not disfigured.) 

http://www.tvguide.com/news/emerald-city-lady-ev-masks/