Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Perfect Xero]

12 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Neither was quick to take the chance.  Obi Wan didn't even want to admit he WAS Obi Wan!  And Yoda kept nattering on about how Luke was too old and untrainable, before reluctantly agreeing to help.

Obi Wan sees the message from Leia and then goes full speed ahead into helping mode.

Yoda tests Luke for 2 minutes upon first meeting him, gets a talk from Obi Wan and then starts training him.

Quote

Seeing Ben sleeping was not the first time Luke had met him, or seen into his mind.

Well, yeah, Luke being both his uncle and teacher is a big part of the reason that I don't think his first instinct would ever have been drawing his weapon.

10 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Or those fans refused to see both have flaws inherent in their personalities that would make them react the way they did. Luke did what he did he because of fear of what Ben could become and Rey did what she did because of hope of what he could be instead.

They had the flaws in their personalities that were required to make the plot of this movie work the way Johnson wanted it to. We know Rey less, so I think it was a bad choice but not necessarily out of character, but I feel like we've seen enough of Luke before Rian came along for me to say it was not true to his character.

Quote

What part of "see into his mind and heart" do you not get?

The part where Luke Skywalker was going to murder someone who posed no direct imminent threat to him.

Beyond that, Kylo Ren being conflicted and still feeling the pull of the light is a huge part of his character arc in TFA, which makes it even less likely to me that Luke would look into his heart and see him as someone beyond hope or redemption.

Quote

He was trying to convince her that the Jedi have only made things worse in the galaxy and would continue to do so. He was wrong and he saw that eventually.

Luke is like his mother. In Return of the Jedi we see how that can be a good thing. In The Last Jedi, we also see how it could be bad.

I have to admit the idea that Luke is like Padme in that she lost the will to live after Anakin's betrayal is an interesting take. Granted, I'm not sure that copying what many consider to be one of the worst and most bizarre character choices made in the prequels is a good thing here, but it's something to think about.

The idea of the Jedi only making things worse when the Sith/Knights of Ren/whatever they call themselves these days, are a bunch of planet destroying fascists is absurd.

[VCRTracking]

12 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The part where Luke Skywalker was going to murder someone who posed no direct imminent threat to him.

Beyond that, Kylo Ren being conflicted and still feeling the pull of the light is a huge part of his character arc in TFA, which makes it even less likely to me that Luke would look into his heart and see him as someone beyond hope or redemption.

Again "It passed like a shadow" and Luke came to his senses. Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Luke was afraid to lose everything and everyone he cared about. Kylo feels the pull of the light because his only fear is that he won't be as strong as Darth Vader. That's not enough. He has to be afraid to lose something or someone to lose and he has nobody.

12 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The idea of the Jedi only making things worse when the Sith/Knights of Ren/whatever they call themselves these days, are a bunch of planet destroying fascists is absurd.

Two Sith were able to kill thousands of Jedi. The only way they were defeated was turning one back to the light. To think Rey is weak or stupid for wanting to do that is absurd.

[Perfect Xero]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Again "It passed like a shadow" and Luke came to his senses. Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Luke was afraid to lose everything and everyone he cared about. Kylo feels the pull of the light because his only fear is that he won't be as strong as Darth Vader. That's not enough. He has to be afraid to lose something or someone to lose and he has nobody.

So Kylo Ren wasn't a good Sith because he was too selfish and didn't care enough about other people?

?

Quote

Two Sith were able to kill thousands of Jedi. The only way they were defeated was turning one back to the light. To think Rey is weak or stupid for wanting to do that is absurd.

I don't know what Luke thinking that the Jedi only make things worst when the Sith/Snokers are planet destroying fascists has to do with Rey wanting to turn Kylo Ren?

[VCRTracking]

Well I'm going to put a hold on debating. The novelization is coming in a couple of days. And from some spoilers it's just going to open up a whole new can of worms. I will say. one bit made me realize that TLJ is to Star Wars fans what The Last Temptation of Christ is to Christians!

To people like me who liked the movie enjoy these cool FX reels:

[DarkRaichu]

Belated comments (watched once in late December):
Good:
- Kylo Ren. From whiny boy in TFA to badass manipulating Sith in TLJ, who was still a bit of a mommy's boy :P
- Hyperjump kamikaze by admiral Purple Hair.  Finn and Rose should have just hijacked 1 or 2 of the Star Destroyers and done the same thing
- Puppet Yoda
- Finally, Praetorian Guards who could fight

Meh:
- Luke in exile with blue milk
- Luke astral projection sequence and death scene were cool but those were the results of bad writing/plotting IMHO

Bad:
- So Luke did not care Kylo killed millions by blowing multiple planets? Seriously?
- Luke was afraid of mirros
- Chewie DID NOT eat that Porg
- Writers could not find anything better for Poe or Finn to do so they were stuck doing pointless B-plot
- Phasma survived Starkiller Base destruction?  Did it have super strong dumpster bin that could withstand planetary destruction?? Was this a homage to Kingdom of Crystal Skull??

Atrocious:
- The whole trip to casino planet.  Forget the children slaves, we freed the alien horses = worth it
- DJ
- Rose crashing to Finn to stop him from heroic sacrifice.  Hell, good thing Rose was not in love with admiral Purple Hair.  She would have stopped the hyperjump kamikaze and let FO Star Destroyers shot all of the escape pods
- Wasted potential of Phasma.  They had the opportunity to explore the psyche of a mid rank officer who was a female to boot.  Instead she had 1.5 minutes cameo while the movie wasted 10 minutes of my life on Finn and Rose riding alien horses.
 

Edited February 28, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[VCRTracking]

Mark Hamill, Oscar Isaac, Kelly Marie Tran and BB-8 presenting the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature to Coco. Kelly looks GORGEOUS.

[Browncoat]

Mark and Oscar look pretty fine, too!

[VCRTracking]

‘Star Wars’: Snoke’s Backstory Does Exist, Says Andy Serkis

Deleted scene:

Damn I wish this version had been in the movie. Finn calling out Phasma turning off the shields at Starkiller Base in front of her men, Phasma killing her own troops, Finn cutting off her hand, etc.

[Zuleikha]

Or those fans refused to see both have flaws inherent in their personalities that would make them react the way they did. Luke did what he did he because of fear of what Ben could become and Rey did what she did because of hope of what he could be instead.

I think Luke pulling the lightsaber on Ben is debatably in character, but it would sure be easier to make a verdict on that if we had any clue what Luke's actual relationship with Ben was like at that point in time. Did Luke/Ben have a close uncle-nephew relationship? Did Luke know about Snoke? Was Ben doing known troubling things at the Academy? (those Knights of Ren presumably didn't decide to just join Ben upon seeing the fire and slaughter) All that backstory Rian Johnson dismissed as irrelevant is crucial to understanding what the heck was actually going on.

 

Rey's choice, IMHO, is flatly out of character. Kylo gave her no reason to have hope he would turn to the light side. It also re-trod ground we'd just seen in TFA, done better and more meaningfully. The only reason the movie kind of pulled off the storyline is because Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are magical scene partners. 

[JessePinkman]

On 3/7/2018 at 3:50 PM, VCRTracking said:

‘Star Wars’: Snoke’s Backstory Does Exist, Says Andy Serkis

Deleted scene:

 

 

This looks so...dumb. So Phasma is quick draw McGraw when killing her own people but doesn't just shoot Finn in the same manner? I know it happens in action movies all the time, the villain dragging out the hero's death, but this one to me looks particularly stupid because she just killed people who were behind Finn, meaning he was in her line of fire and she chose not to kill him.

I liked him cutting off her hand though.

[ChelseaNH]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

So Phasma is quick draw McGraw when killing her own people but doesn't just shoot Finn in the same manner?

She sees Finn as a washout -- less of a threat, and more of an offense.  But yeah, it's a tiresome trope regardless.

[VCRTracking]

Watch The First 12 Minutes of the ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Documentary ‘The Director and the Jedi’ Right Now

*ETA* Trailer:

 

From The Hollywood Reporter:

Rian Johnson, Mark Hamill Talk 'Last Jedi,' Carrie Fisher and New 'Star Wars' Trilogy at SXSW

From io9:

Inside the Tragic Beginning That Set the Tone for Star Wars: The Last Jedi

ETA again(because I had to):

Edited March 15, 2018 by VCRTracking

[paramitch]

Yeah. I'm the last person on earth who hadn't seen it. Yay!

So... I loved this, and thought it was really gorgeous.

First off, Mark Hamill blew me away. I thought he was amazing. A gorgeous performance—fierce, funny, and soulful. His understanding of the camera is so nuanced; each microexpression is a master class. And he moves beautifully. Lovely to see a great actor get material so worthy of him. He's been such an acclaimed voice actor for so long, it was just incredible to get to see what he can do onscreen again.

I also especially loved the moments given to Luke, Leia, Chewie, Hoda (who I adored), and of course to the new team -- Rey, Poe, Finn, and BB-8. Carrie looked so beautiful here, and my heart broke twenty times during the movie because we'll never get to see Leia's chapter and she so deserved one. But Carrie's performance was just so quiet and tender and confident, with those little flashes of mischief.

Meanwhile, I thought Rose was a terrific new fit, and loved her moment after rescuing Finn. I know many say "It came out of left field." Yep. That's what I loved about it. Because it did for us. But not for her. If you rewatch, Rose looks at Finn with stars in her eyes the entire time, but never says a word. And of course Finn was oblivious. But she thought she was dying, and she wanted to make a point, and I thought it was a beautiful and surprising yet believable moment. 

I loved the stuff with Kylo and Rey, and how the film has its cake and eats it too: We get the simmering sexual tension they've always had (it's purely physical and has nothing to do with the fact that Kylo is a murderous sleazebag), but the writing and acting allowed them to respond like real people -- yes, there's a connection there, but Ben is still a narcissistic patricidal ass who will always betray himself or those around him, and Rey at heart is a hero and always will be. It was beautifully done. And as always, I was so impressed with Adam Driver. The guy just has charisma for days, and he's a beautiful technical actor in both his movement and particularly in the use of his voice. I also thought this was a much, much better performance from Daisy Ridley -- she brought a new confidence, ferocity and depth to Rey that I really loved. The moment when she shuts her eyes with Luke to tune into the Force is such a lovely visual moment and so delicately acted.

I admit that I also liked one other odd yet vital little moment -- that Kylo admitted to Rey that he did not hate his father, and it didn't appear that he or the movie was pinning his actions on his own hurt feelings. He'd simply done what he was asked. He'd made the choice to go dark, and this movie doubled down on that.  (Although I was weirdly irritated that Snoke immediately began the film by whining that Kylo hadn't proven his dedication enough, and I was, like, "DUDE HE JUST KILLED HIS DAD FOR YOU." Yeah, I know. Issues.) But yeah: I appreciate that we didn't get a lot of manpain and justification and that instead Kylo was like: "I didn't hate him." Because that's who he is. How many people has Kylo killed so far? And most, let's face it, with very little emotion involved at all (aside from when he isn't doing those toddler stompy ragefests of his). He doesn't need to hate people to kill them. That's the darkest thing of all, actually, about the Dark Side to me.

Anyway. I loved everything to do with the little moments for the women -- Leia (especially her finally calling on the Force within herself -- I loved the EVA and thought it was beautiful and yes, dammit, I cried), and Hoda (Laura Dern looked so beautiful in this -- she should always have purple curly hair!) and her badassery and sly flirtiness with Poe, plus Rey, and Rose, and Rose's sister (a gorgeous and moving sequence). 

The one thing I don't get is the fandom's obsession with the idea that Rey being special MUST be tied to a mystery involving her parents. I will seriously throw things if we ever find out she's a Skywalker. I don't WANT her to be a Skywalker. In actuality, for me, one of the best moments here was Kylo speaking the truth (or so I hope it is) that her parents were nobodies who abandoned her. Does that make her less special? Not for a moment. If anything, she's more so. The obsession with the Force as a blood tie or purely hereditary trait... it's much less interesting that way.

Which was why I loved the final moment with the little boy slyly using the Force to grab the broom, and then to go watch the sky in wonder and yearning... that's the REAL link between the Jedis for me.

And that's why Luke's final moments made me burst into tears. Everything about that revelation that he was not actually physically present was so powerful and beautiful to me; it was a way for him to strike a blow but on his terms, to claim and yet continue to abnegate his power exactly as he'd insisted. And it was beautifully foreshadowed (Kylo says early on that sustaining that kind of apparition would kill Rey, for instance), and most touching of all... it was a direct callback to one of the most gorgeous moments in STAR WARS for me, when Luke watches the suns set on Tatooine, yearning for a life beyond the stars (and it's one of my favorite motifs in Williams's beautiful score).

And then now... there was Luke in that beautiful place, after he'd done his part, said goodbye to his sister... dying, watching the suns set... and being at peace with exactly where he was. For once.

Now excuse me while I go cry some more.
 

Edited March 16, 2018 by paramitch
Clarifying a few bits

[Perfect Xero]

6 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Meanwhile, I thought Rose was a terrific new fit, and loved her moment after rescuing Finn. I know many say "It came out of left field." Yep. That's what I loved about it. Because it did for us. But not for her. If you rewatch, Rose looks at Finn with stars in her eyes the entire time, but never says a word. And of course Finn was oblivious. But she thought she was dying, and she wanted to make a point, and I thought it was a beautiful and surprising yet believable moment.

I thought it was a great twist that Rose was actually a First Order spy the entire time and pretty clever of her to play off of Finn's lack of experience with relationships to maintain her cover by babbling some nonsense about love even after she risked her life to save the FO's super weapon and all but ensure that the FO would wipe out the Resistance.

[VCRTracking]

Rose getting shit for saving Finn's life when if it had been Poe or Rey who did it fans would have been ecstatic.  I love  hate shipping.

Edited March 16, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

16 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Rose getting shit for saving Finn's life when if it had been Poe or Rey who did it fans would have been ecstatic.  I love  hate shipping.

I don't ship anyone in these movies though?

It would have been an equally bad scene to me regardless of who it was that 'saved' Finn by causing him to have a high-speed crash in a rickety ship (which could have easily killed him anyway), thus allowing the The First Order to blow open the Resistance base. Followed by the FO not capturing or killing the two enemy pilots who crashed near their troops in a flat white field with no cover.

[Joe]

Upon rewatching this, I think I noticed a theme. Poor communication kills. People never tell each other what they need to know until forced to, or it's too late. And even then, the receiver of information sometimes gets it wrong. Once or twice is missing a trick, or sloppy writing. But constantly, it's a theme. I can see how people can find it so annoying. It's not the theme I'd have picked for a Star Wars movie, but I'm all right with it.

Also, I spotted a couple of times when Leia uses the Force. When Paige is trying to kick down the bomb control, we see Leia with a look on her face. The next time we see that expression is right before the missiles hit the Raddus bridge. I think Leia gave the control a nudge, and was able to prepare herself for the missiles and exposure to space.

[paramitch]

On 3/17/2018 at 2:23 AM, Joe said:

Also, I spotted a couple of times when Leia uses the Force. When Paige is trying to kick down the bomb control, we see Leia with a look on her face. The next time we see that expression is right before the missiles hit the Raddus bridge. I think Leia gave the control a nudge, and was able to prepare herself for the missiles and exposure to space.

I adore this idea and would love it to be true. Heading back for a rewatch.

Edited March 23, 2018 by paramitch
shortening quote to clarify

[Joe]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

I adore this idea and would love it to be true. Heading back for a rewatch.

Which bit? And let me know what you discover. :)

[paramitch]

On 3/17/2018 at 7:50 AM, Joe said:

Which bit? And let me know what you discover. :)

Sorry! I edited the quote to make it clearer. Your point about Leia possibly using the Force subtly at various other points as well. I love this and really look forward to seeing any such little nuances (I would be just delighted).

[VCRTracking]

I don't think that's what happened but I'm not going to dissuade people from believing that theory.

Edited March 23, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Joe]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I don't think that's what happened but I'm not going to dissuade people from believing that theory.

Then what do you think happened?

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

Then what do you think happened?

That Paige kicked the ladder until the remote fell.

[Joe]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

That Paige kicked the ladder until the remote fell.

Yes, she did. But I think that Leia gave it that extra nudge to help it fall, or fall where Paige could catch it.

[VCRTracking]

Eh. There would have been more crosscutting to Leia and the "Force Theme" playing. Also if she was that powerful she would have had it fly to Paige's hand.

[Joe]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Eh. There would have been more crosscutting to Leia and the "Force Theme" playing. Also if she was that powerful she would have had it fly to Paige's hand.

I went back and checked. It's a different look to what I initially thought, and the music is different too. But Leia still has a look of concentration to her, and I still like my theory. :)

[Amtosbm]

On 3/16/2018 at 3:37 AM, paramitch said:

Yeah. I'm the last person on earth who hadn't seen it. Yay!

So... I loved this, and thought it was really gorgeous.

First off, Mark Hamill blew me away. I thought he was amazing. A gorgeous performance—fierce, funny, and soulful. His understanding of the camera is so nuanced; each microexpression is a master class. And he moves beautifully. Lovely to see a great actor get material so worthy of him. He's been such an acclaimed voice actor for so long, it was just incredible to get to see what he can do onscreen again.

I also especially loved the moments given to Luke, Leia, Chewie, Hoda (who I adored), and of course to the new team -- Rey, Poe, Finn, and BB-8. Carrie looked so beautiful here, and my heart broke twenty times during the movie because we'll never get to see Leia's chapter and she so deserved one. But Carrie's performance was just so quiet and tender and confident, with those little flashes of mischief.

Meanwhile, I thought Rose was a terrific new fit, and loved her moment after rescuing Finn. I know many say "It came out of left field." Yep. That's what I loved about it. Because it did for us. But not for her. If you rewatch, Rose looks at Finn with stars in her eyes the entire time, but never says a word. And of course Finn was oblivious. But she thought she was dying, and she wanted to make a point, and I thought it was a beautiful and surprising yet believable moment. 

I loved the stuff with Kylo and Rey, and how the film has its cake and eats it too: We get the simmering sexual tension they've always had (it's purely physical and has nothing to do with the fact that Kylo is a murderous sleazebag), but the writing and acting allowed them to respond like real people -- yes, there's a connection there, but Ben is still a narcissistic patricidal ass who will always betray himself or those around him, and Rey at heart is a hero and always will be. It was beautifully done. And as always, I was so impressed with Adam Driver. The guy just has charisma for days, and he's a beautiful technical actor in both his movement and particularly in the use of his voice. I also thought this was a much, much better performance from Daisy Ridley -- she brought a new confidence, ferocity and depth to Rey that I really loved. The moment when she shuts her eyes with Luke to tune into the Force is such a lovely visual moment and so delicately acted.

I admit that I also liked one other odd yet vital little moment -- that Kylo admitted to Rey that he did not hate his father, and it didn't appear that he or the movie was pinning his actions on his own hurt feelings. He'd simply done what he was asked. He'd made the choice to go dark, and this movie doubled down on that.  (Although I was weirdly irritated that Snoke immediately began the film by whining that Kylo hadn't proven his dedication enough, and I was, like, "DUDE HE JUST KILLED HIS DAD FOR YOU." Yeah, I know. Issues.) But yeah: I appreciate that we didn't get a lot of manpain and justification and that instead Kylo was like: "I didn't hate him." Because that's who he is. How many people has Kylo killed so far? And most, let's face it, with very little emotion involved at all (aside from when he isn't doing those toddler stompy ragefests of his). He doesn't need to hate people to kill them. That's the darkest thing of all, actually, about the Dark Side to me.

Anyway. I loved everything to do with the little moments for the women -- Leia (especially her finally calling on the Force within herself -- I loved the EVA and thought it was beautiful and yes, dammit, I cried), and Hoda (Laura Dern looked so beautiful in this -- she should always have purple curly hair!) and her badassery and sly flirtiness with Poe, plus Rey, and Rose, and Rose's sister (a gorgeous and moving sequence). 

The one thing I don't get is the fandom's obsession with the idea that Rey being special MUST be tied to a mystery involving her parents. I will seriously throw things if we ever find out she's a Skywalker. I don't WANT her to be a Skywalker. In actuality, for me, one of the best moments here was Kylo speaking the truth (or so I hope it is) that her parents were nobodies who abandoned her. Does that make her less special? Not for a moment. If anything, she's more so. The obsession with the Force as a blood tie or purely hereditary trait... it's much less interesting that way.

Which was why I loved the final moment with the little boy slyly using the Force to grab the broom, and then to go watch the sky in wonder and yearning... that's the REAL link between the Jedis for me.

And that's why Luke's final moments made me burst into tears. Everything about that revelation that he was not actually physically present was so powerful and beautiful to me; it was a way for him to strike a blow but on his terms, to claim and yet continue to abnegate his power exactly as he'd insisted. And it was beautifully foreshadowed (Kylo says early on that sustaining that kind of apparition would kill Rey, for instance), and most touching of all... it was a direct callback to one of the most gorgeous moments in STAR WARS for me, when Luke watches the suns set on Tatooine, yearning for a life beyond the stars (and it's one of my favorite motifs in Williams's beautiful score).

And then now... there was Luke in that beautiful place, after he'd done his part, said goodbye to his sister... dying, watching the suns set... and being at peace with exactly where he was. For once.

Now excuse me while I go cry some more.
 

I agree with everything you said. The movie isn't perfect but rewatching the OT over March Break - yikes - some of the scenes are not so great also ( I hate Ewoks).  I felt bad for Luke at first too in this one. What a shitty life he eventually ended up with, but you know what - that happens to people even good people. We don't always get what we want. Mark Hamill was great and I loved Luke's ending though it did make me cry. I hope he turns up as a force ghost.  I also liked what you said about Kylo/Ben choosing darkness and following orders. He will be a terrible leader.  If he gets a redemption arc ( and I think he is going to but differently than Anakin) then how are they going to do it? He is a dark violent character who even if he comes back to the light. will always have a lot of darkness in him and the capability to chose it. I think JJ also really screwed up choosing to have him kill Han to make Han more relevant to the plot. For any fan who loved Han ( I know I did) its unforgiveable and something they can't get past.  I have a feeling many are going to be disappointed by the turns in the final movie as well.

I am going to be rewatching TFA and TLJ over Easter break with my family. Its always fun to rewatch movies with new insights. I know at first viewing TFA and thinking Rey would be Luke's, the sight of Kylo carrying her around bridal style was weird to see. Now it takes on a whole other facet. And I will be looking for Rose with the stars in her eyes! And I love Holdo as well and thought Laura looked beautiful as well. It was great to see so many women in this film. And I think they were all well written. I only hope for as much in the next film.

[VCRTracking]

A tweet posting a review of the Pacific Rim sequel starring John Boyega that has a great quote:

[BetterButter]

[Lantern7]

Once again, my headcanon says the troops were able to see Luke with their eyes, but not by scanners. Afterward, they looked at the footage, and it was five minutes of Kylo Ren flailing around like Star Wars Kid. I didn’t think of SWK in relation to that final shot.

[Joe]

I like that Honest Trailer, but the comments surprise me. While I love the movie, I acknowledge that some people didn't. But those who don't, don't seem to understand that a lot of people did. They wanted the trailer just to slam the movie. I found it pretty fair, giving time to both sides of the divide.

[JessePinkman]

I think they played it too safe, they didn't want to alienate either side and it came across as not having a definitive take on the movie. I like the ones where they give in less to the internet debates and just riff on the movie.

[VCRTracking]

9 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Once again, my headcanon says the troops were able to see Luke with their eyes, but not by scanners. Afterward, they looked at the footage, and it was five minutes of Kylo Ren flailing around like Star Wars Kid. I didn’t think of SWK in relation to that final shot.

3PO saw him so evidently Luke's astral projection could show up on technology.

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

I think they played it too safe, they didn't want to alienate either side and it came across as not having a definitive take on the movie. I like the ones where they give in less to the internet debates and just riff on the movie.

I thought it was right not to ignore the divided opinion on the movie. I would have contested it if they had a  completely negative opinion on the movie but this acknowledges how fans have strong feelings about it. Seeing how the votes for it's 7.4 rating on IMDB break down the majority is positive, even though it the number of votes for a 1 rating is larger than normal. The 8 rating got the highest number of votes with "7" being second. As much as I defend it I  think the Canto Bight sequence is why people are giving it a 7 when they could be giving it an 8 or 9.

8 hours ago, Joe said:

I like that Honest Trailer, but the comments surprise me. While I love the movie, I acknowledge that some people didn't. But those who don't, don't seem to understand that a lot of people did. They wanted the trailer just to slam the movie. I found it pretty fair, giving time to both sides of the divide.

They also want to believe this fiction that it's this huge failure that will cost Kathleen Kennedy her job and is an embarrassment to Disney studios when the reality is it was the top grossing film of 2017.

Edited March 28, 2018 by VCRTracking

[revbfc]

I was absolutely surprised at how much more I liked this movie on the second viewing, and I really loved it the first time.

[Spartan Girl]

I still love it, though I wish the deleted scenes of Luke/Leia mourning Han and Luke trolling Rey with the third lesson would have been kept in the final movie.

I watched The Director and the Jedi documentary, and I love that both Mark and Carrie brought their little dogs to the set.  Started welling up with the footage of their scene together.

And whether you love or hate Rian, I think he was right about one thing: the answers Rey was looking for wouldn't come from Kylo, Luke, or her parents -- it had to come from herself.  And even if her parents were horrible nobodies, that doesn't mean anything.  Rey is who she is because of REY.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I still love it, though I wish the deleted scenes of Luke/Leia mourning Han and Luke trolling Rey with the third lesson would have been kept in the final movie.

I watched The Director and the Jedi documentary, and I love that both Mark and Carrie brought their little dogs to the set.  Started welling up with the footage of their scene together.

And whether you love or hate Rian, I think he was right about one thing: the answers Rey was looking for wouldn't come from Kylo, Luke, or her parents -- it had to come from herself.  And even if her parents were horrible nobodies, that doesn't mean anything.  Rey is who she is because of REY.

Yes on both of those scenes.  I have no idea whatsoever why the Luke/Leia mourning Han scene was cut.  It literally would have added no more than 60 seconds on the running time and it's inexplicable that this wouldn't have been touched upon by Luke.

I still blame JJ though for not putting the big three together in a scene for The Last Jedi.

[VCRTracking]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Yes on both of those scenes.  I have no idea whatsoever why the Luke/Leia mourning Han scene was cut.  It literally would have added no more than 60 seconds on the running time and it's inexplicable that this wouldn't have been touched upon by Luke.

I'm just glad it exists and it's canon(since it doesn't contradict anything in the movie). Seeing Luke mourning and cutting to Leia immediately does make it seem like they're both thinking about Han. In the film it seems Leia is worried about the Resistance's plight.

Blooper reel. My face hurts watching all those takes of Carrie slapping Oscar!

Edited March 29, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

And whether you love or hate Rian, I think he was right about one thing: the answers Rey was looking for wouldn't come from Kylo, Luke, or her parents -- it had to come from herself.  And even if her parents were horrible nobodies, that doesn't mean anything.  Rey is who she is because of REY.

 

I don't think anyone wanted or expected differently. Rey would still be who she is because of Rey if she had a tie to the Skywalkers (see exhibit A: Kylo Ren). However, her parents loving her but being from somewhere else but forced to leave her on Jakku is more consistent with Rey's behavior. Young Rey in the flashback is played by an 8 year old, and looks about that age. 7-8 year olds know their lives. An 8 year old would know that she'd grown up on Jakku. She would have memories of how her parents treated her, and parents who sell their child into slavery generally are not warm, loving parents. Most importantly, she would know that her parents were not mysterious and there were no secrets about her birth. She may not know that they sold her or why they left her with Unkar Platt, but she would know that's what happened. If she wanted to be reunited so desperately that she passed up opportunities to leave the planet (from extended materials)/desperately wanted to return to the planet (in the move), she would probably also have looked for them on Jakku, probably near where she remembered growing up. 

I don't care that Rey's parents aren't tied to characters previously in the story. I care that the background Rian gave them makes no sense with what was established in TFA. If he'd gone with the spec that she was a youngling at the Jedi Academy who was hidden on Jakku, her parents still would have been nobodies. But her background would actually be consistent with what we saw.

And I have the meta-knowledge that Rian Johnson didn't need to make sure his movie actually fit with TFA, which makes his choices extra frustrating. I know from his interviews that it's not part of a master storytelling plan but rather that his choices are exactly what they look like: the storytelling choices of someone who didn't need to care about creating an overall, coherent story. He hadn't even seen TFA when he made them!

[VCRTracking]

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

He hadn't even seen TFA when he made them!

It was still in production. He read the script. 

In Rey's vision in TFA she saw a herself as little girl on Jakku screaming "Come back!" to a departing. To me it's like she was seeing that memory for the first time. Like she had suppressed it. I think her telling herself that he parents we're going to come back was a way of coping with the truth that they just abandoned her.

Rian was right in that Rey finding out she was nobody was as devastating to her as finding out Vader was his father was to Luke in Empire. Also like that revelation, it's going to be endlessly debated by people until the next movie whether it's the truth or not. A lot of fans couldn't accept it either saying it didn't make sense to what was previously established.

[afterbite]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Rian was right in that Rey finding out she was nobody was as devastating to her as finding out Vader was his father was to Luke in Empire. Also like that revelation, it's going to be endlessly debated by people until the next movie whether it's the truth or not. A lot of fans couldn't accept it either saying it didn't make sense to what was previously established.

I don't really see that, or see it as a valid comparison (despite what Rian says). I didn't get the impression that Rey thought she was somebody big or somebody special in the 'saves the galaxy' sense. I got the sense she was waiting, and that whoever she was waiting for was important to her on a personal level. Probably she'd built up some romantic notion about her parents, but finding out that you're not cosmically special (which I don't think she believes in the first place) doesn't at all seem to be on the level of finding out that your father is a mass murderer/your nemesis/tortured your friends, etc.

[VCRTracking]

51 minutes ago, afterbite said:

I don't really see that, or see it as a valid comparison (despite what Rian says). I didn't get the impression that Rey thought she was somebody big or somebody special in the 'saves the galaxy' sense. I got the sense she was waiting, and that whoever she was waiting for was important to her on a personal level. Probably she'd built up some romantic notion about her parents, but finding out that you're not cosmically special (which I don't think she believes in the first place) doesn't at all seem to be on the level of finding out that your father is a mass murderer/your nemesis/tortured your friends, etc.

I think finding out you're parents never gave a shit about you and sold you for drinking money isn't as bad but it's still fucking devastating. I don't think she wanted to be special like related to like Luke or Leia or Han. She just wanted to be wanted. She thought there must be a good reason for her parents to leave her and the only possible explanation other than the truth was they were playing a bigger part in the larger scheme of things in the galaxy and  were too busy doing important work to raise her. They also wanted to keep her safe. That's what a lot of fans thought.

Edited March 29, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Cirien]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I think finding out you're parents never gave a shit about you and sold you for drinking money isn't as bad but it's still fucking devastating. I don't think she wanted to be special like related to like Luke or Leia or Han. She just wanted to be wanted. She thought there must be a good reason for her parents to leave her and the only possible explanation other than the truth was they were playing a bigger part in the larger scheme of things in the galaxy and  were too busy doing important work to raise her. They also wanted to keep her safe. That's what a lot of fans thought.

 

In the novelisation it's revealed she thought her parents were space merchants now granted she may have blocked out the fact that they sold her but given that she is able to refuse Unkar Plutt in the first film it's clearly more like indentured servitude and in the addition materials for The Force Awakens she never thinks of herself as slave ( one of her lines is "I belong to no-one) . She never wanted them to be somebody she wanted them to come *back*,. ... she has to accept that they won't and this lesson was given to her by Maz. Rey's question was never about who they were- it was about where they were and if they were ever coming back for her. Rian decided to answer the audience question instead of Rey's. He played with the audiences explanations and not hers. That's why it ( to me) feels off

 

ETA: to make a few corrections and give some extra details. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Cirien

[Zuleikha]

It was still in production. He read the script.

Right. Which was a horrible idea. The shooting script is the initial intention, but a lot changes when the script is actually shot and edited. He needed to see the final cut, and he should have known that. You cannot know how to properly develop a story when you don't even know how it's actually been told. 

She never wanted them to be somebody she wanted them to come *back*,. ... she has to accept that they won't and this lesson was given to her by Maz. Rey's question was never about who they were- it was about where they were and if they were ever coming back for her. Rian decided to answer the audience question instead of Rey's. He played with the audiences explanations and not hers. That's why it ( to me) feels off

Exactly. And Rey resolved her question at the end of TFA when she picked up the lightsaber and then chose to go to Luke instead of back to Jakku.

The other thing that makes Rian's choice so empty, IMHO, is that by the point that Kylo Ren tells Rey her parents are nobodies, it's a so what. Rey knows she's a powerful Force user, and she knows she has people who care about her. She's important, no matter who her parents are or why they left her. There are a lot of things it makes sense for her to feel insecure about, but her identity is not one of them. 

It's also already canon that Jedis are just random people who happen to have the ability to interact with the Force. Luke was the exception because Anakin made bad choices. (but he's awesome in Clone Wars and if anyone hasn't seen it, go and watch it! It is what the prequels should have been and show how Lucas's ideas were great, if only he knew how to execute them)

[Joe]

She wanted her parents to be special. To have a good reason for abandoning her. Like they were called away for a higher purpose, and would come back when they could.

[VCRTracking]

On 3/29/2018 at 9:19 PM, Zuleikha said:

The other thing that makes Rian's choice so empty, IMHO, is that by the point that Kylo Ren tells Rey her parents are nobodies, it's a so what. Rey knows she's a powerful Force user, and she knows she has people who care about her. She's important, no matter who her parents are or why they left her. There are a lot of things it makes sense for her to feel insecure about, but her identity is not one of them. 

Kylo, the son of Princess Leia and General Han Solo, nephew of Luke Skywalker and  grandson of Darth Vader would of course think whether special lineage would be important thing to her because  it is to him and that her parents were nobodies was the truth she couldn't accept. It's not. It's realizing that her parents really didn't care about her and that they not only abandoned her but sold her for money. Yes she has Force abilities and she has people who care about her now but that doesn't make it feel less worse that she didn't matter at all to the people were supposed to love her unconditionally.

 

On 3/29/2018 at 9:19 PM, Zuleikha said:

Right. Which was a horrible idea. The shooting script is the initial intention, but a lot changes when the script is actually shot and edited. He needed to see the final cut, and he should have known that. You cannot know how to properly develop a story when you don't even know how it's actually been told. 

Accept for Han's hanging the gold dice on the Falcon which got cut out of TFA, nothing that got changed from script to filming and editing contradicted TLJ as far as I can see.

Edited March 31, 2018 by VCRTracking

[WritinMan]

I just watched this (I don't really go to the theater anymore) and thought it was...OK. But I need to watch it again. It was a great-looking movie, but I found some of the plot choices to be a bit baffling. I need to think about it.

It was great to see Luke and Leia together, though.

In my ranking of all the movies, this is definitely in the second half of the list. Attack of the Clones is still the worst.

Edited March 31, 2018 by WritinMan
Added stuff!

[Zuleikha]

Accept for Han's hanging the gold dice on the Falcon which got cut out of TFA, nothing that got changed from script to filming and editing contradicted TLJ as far as I can see.

I've already explained in depth why I think Johnson's choice about Rey's parent contradicted Rey's vision, so that's not something I agree with on the literal level of factual elements in movies. But when I talk about developing a story, I'm not simply talking about avoiding contradicting facts/events that are given on screen. I'm talking about understanding characterization, character journey, emotional beats, even mysteries. In his interviews, Johnson seems so perplexed by why a huge chunk of the audience felt that he dropped a lot of threads in TFA; I think he would be a lot less perplexed if he had watched a final cut to see what story we were actually told before he solidified his ideas for TLJ.

[VCRTracking]

12 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I've already explained in depth why I think Johnson's choice about Rey's parent contradicted Rey's vision, so that's not something I agree with on the literal level of factual elements in movies. But when I talk about developing a story, I'm not simply talking about avoiding contradicting facts/events that are given on screen. I'm talking about understanding characterization, character journey, emotional beats, even mysteries. In his interviews, Johnson seems so perplexed by why a huge chunk of the audience felt that he dropped a lot of threads in TFA; I think he would be a lot less perplexed if he had watched a final cut to see what story we were actually told before he solidified his ideas for TLJ.

I was surprised as anyone where Rian took Rey's story in TLJ but I didn't hate it. I don't see is as a matter that he based The Last Jedi on a different version of The Force Awakens so much as he saw the same story but took a different view of what was important for the characters. Rey in TFA was criticized similar to Luke but there was one big difference: she was able to beat back and nearly kill the villain in the end whereas Luke took two more movies to get to that point. Abrams skipped over a huge chunk of her development and had her advance to a  such a high level that the only possible explanation by most was that she had to be related to Luke. People were already speculating that she was either Han and Leia's daughter or Luke's but that fight just reenforced it(along with Leia hugging this total stranger and grieving with her about Han instead of Chewie). So when she goes to Ach-to to find Luke audience doesn't assume she's meeting the man who will train her to become a Jedi(since she basically doesn't need it) they assume she's reuniting with her father.

Rian looked at Rey being as good as Luke was in Return of the Jedi in TFA and instead of reaching the conclusion fans did that "She must be a Skywalker!" and exploring that, he thought her believing she could turn Kylo back to the light side the way Luke did with Vader was the logical place to take her story. Except in Rey's case it would have a different outcome.

And maybe Snoke had the potential for an interesting origin and backstory but in the end he was still just an imitation of Palpatine while  Kylo Ren on the other hand has Vader's power while being far more volatile, unpredictable and emotional and therefore a more compelling villain in Johnson's view.

I've posted before that Rey, Finn and Poe in The Force Awakens felt like kids to me. They were like children in adult bodies. The Last Jedi is where they adolescence. They rebel against authority, go through sexual awakening, they become aware to the problems of the larger world beyond themselves etc.

Edited April 1, 2018 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

I don't mind the idea of Rey being a "nobody" with "nobody parents" but to me if that was the plan, it should have been made clear immediately in The Force Awakens, instead of dragging it on for another movie.  That makes me think that Rian Johnson just decided to change everything just for the sake of changing everything.  If so, then I blame Kathleen Kennedy for not keeping to a plan for this trilogy and allowing Rian Johnson to freelance.

I've LIKED this movie every time that I've seen it but at the same time, it's hard to ignore some of the questionable characterizations and decisions in this movie.  Killing off Snoke, Poe's just awful decision-making, Rey's parents, etc.  Whatever his flaws as a filmmaker and writer (and they are considerable), JJ did a great job with Rey, Finn and Poe while Rian did a TERRIBLE job with them.  They felt less important under him.  Rey doesn't feel as important, Finn is goofier, and Poe is a complete moron who gets more of the Resistance killed.

Edited April 2, 2018 by benteen

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

They felt less important under him.  Rey doesn't feel as important, Finn is goofier, and Poe is a complete moron who gets more of the Resistance killed.

Again I think of them going through adolescence Like in the Harry Potter books and films, the characters of Harry, Hermione and Ron go through various degrees of asshole-ness once puberty hits them full on in Goblet of Fire. Obviously Finn, Poe and Rey are adults but they felt like kids to me in TFA.

I'm not going to say this tweet from Rian yesterday "explains a lot" but it did make me go "Interesting....".