S01.E01: Disconnection

[3girlsforus]

1 hour ago, shelley1005 said:

My church did automatic payments as well.   Churches are places of worship, but they are also businesses and that's just good business.   I never became as aware of how much it was a business until I was put on the Church Council and got to sit in on all those meetings.  Sure, Sunday may be all about hope and light and Jesus, but most other days are focused on paying the rent, keeping the lights on and getting someone in to snake out a drain.  

The church my parents attend take automatic payments as well. Mine doesn't but people wish it did. You aren't required to give but many choose to give a set amount regularly and prefer an easier, more effective way to do it. Lots of people don't even carry their checkbook anymore so trying to remember to bring it on Sunday morning, or even worse once a month because many people do a monthly donation instead of weekly, is just annnoying. But either way the church isn't standing there saying full out this auto-deduction form and we will let you in Sunday School. 

[AZChristian]

Electronic payments to churches are quite common now.  We love the fact that we can donate via Paypal using our Visa card (which we pay off every month).  Gotta get those Southwest Airlines miles!!!!

[Meadow]

The financial thing intrigues me.  My husband is president of our parish's financial council.  He doesn't know what any parishioner earns (nor is he interested).  He helped set up electronic tithing at the request of parishioners because the younger generation is accustomed to doing things that way.  Write a weekly check??  That's what grandparents do!  But you can write a check or tithe electronically or drop cash into the basket or give absolutely nothing... or some combination of all of those over the course of a year.

Recently the Bishop created a new program that he would like all of the parishes to help fund.  At our finance council meeting to discuss the program, things got heated.  We can barely bring in enough money to cover the upkeep of the church building and the meager salaries of our few employees.  Our lower income parishioners can not spare extra for the Bishop's Keep Kittens Cute Campaign.  We're not likely to meet our "target" goal set for us by the diocese.

Here's what won't happen...  My husband won't get beat up by the Bishop.  My husband won't beat up the other finance council members.  No one will tap our phones, follow our cars, or videotape us.  Our son, the prospective priest, won't get called in and told that we are heretics and his salvation, indeed, the salvation of the world, depends upon not speaking to us or his siblings again.  Every parishioner who gives zero dollars to the Keep Kittens Cute Campaign can still go to Confession for free and it won't be recorded, kept on file, and potentially used against them.  They can continue to receive Communion, get married within the Church, and have their children baptized.  We can write letters to the Bishop saying that we think kittens are ugly... and nothing bad will happen.

[shelley1234]

While no one got beat up or forced to pay anything in my church either, they used some other tactics to get the kind of money they needed.  Remember that one ex=Scientology lady who said they had her say she was giving 20K at an event to get more to donate.  Yep, they did that.  Or they made it known who was giving a big donation to not only thank them, but remind other members of the parish that they SHOULD be doing their part.  They'd have some presentations to the Church that were car salesmen pushy and made me super uncomfortable.  And when you did agree to your weekly or monthly gift to the church, if you didn't pay on time, they sent you a bill.  No, no one kicked you out when you didn't pay, but I know some of their tactics got people to see the money side of Church.  

[notyrmomma]

Ok, I know I'm late to this party, but I have a question about this episode if anyone knows or can offer an opinion: Were there rumors about Shelly's location before the wedding that Leah might have had knowledge of, or did she just say something non-chalantly at the wedding like "Oh hey David, how are you? Where's Shelly?"  Like was she already pissed off with the Jlo thing so she says "....AND WHERE'S SHELLY?" or was it just an innocent question?  This makes a difference.

I find Scientology and all cults fascinating, but I just started reading up again on all the Scientology issues again just recently (I have a long way to catch up with these boards!).  I tried to read Dianetics back in the mid-1990s when I was in college as I had seen it laying around our house for years and was curious.  I couldn't get through 1/3 of the book.  I thought it was nuts and way over my head.  Thank God!  However, I doubt I would have gotten too far into Scientology, because as someone else said, I'm too lazy to do all that stuff.  LOL

Edited January 18, 2017 by notyrmomma

[DangerousMinds]

On 1/12/2017 at 11:50 AM, shelley1005 said:

While no one got beat up or forced to pay anything in my church either, they used some other tactics to get the kind of money they needed.  Remember that one ex=Scientology lady who said they had her say she was giving 20K at an event to get more to donate.  Yep, they did that.  Or they made it known who was giving a big donation to not only thank them, but remind other members of the parish that they SHOULD be doing their part.  They'd have some presentations to the Church that were car salesmen pushy and made me super uncomfortable.  And when you did agree to your weekly or monthly gift to the church, if you didn't pay on time, they sent you a bill.  No, no one kicked you out when you didn't pay, but I know some of their tactics got people to see the money side of Church.  

This is all horrifying to me.

[laurakaye]

21 minutes ago, notyrmomma said:

I find Scientology and all cults fascinating, but I just started reading up again on all the Scientology issues again just recently (I have a long way to catch up with these boards!).  I tried to read Dianetics back in the mid-1990s when I was in college as I had seen it laying around our house for years and was curious.  I couldn't get through 1/3 of the book.  I thought it was nuts and way over my head.  Thank God!  However, I doubt I would have gotten too far into Scientology, because as someone else said, I'm too lazy to do all that stuff.  LOL

Same here.  I remember picking it up at a used book sale, thinking it was a book about diets.  Crap, was I wrong.

Edited January 18, 2017 by laurakaye

[shelley1234]

44 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

This is all horrifying to me.

Being involved at a member of my church's council made me have less faith, not more.  It went from a place of faith to a business.  I mean, I know it has to be a business to keep the lights on, the staff paid and what have you, but it definitely was not the experience I hoped it would be.  

[pinguina]

To tag onto giving to your church, at my church when something needs to be done (for example the plumbing and electricity had to be updated a few years ago and it was decided to upgrade classrooms and offices too.  It was talked about after mass during announcements, people were encouraged to share their thoughts with church council and their names were given (we were told their contact info was in our weekly bulletin).  Some people gave their two cents, others were "Sounds good".  Then we got estimates.  The top three choices were shared with the entire congregation (this was done after every single mass).  One was chosen.  Parishioners were asked to pledge an amount for the year and break it into 12 months.  Some people could only pledge two or three hundred for the year, others pledged thousands - but the info was not shared outside of council.  We would get a reminder of how much was left on our pledge but that was it, I think it was more of an account in case people were not keeping track.  Also, every year we receive an annual financial report of where "our" money goes and how much is in savings.

Anyway a roundabout way of saying that I don't think the cult has any accountability to it's "members" and they are not aware of what anything costs or where their donations go.  There is no transparency in this cult about anything - not money, not beliefs, not the reasons for disconnections, not anything.

[lovinbob]

On 11/30/2016 at 7:51 PM, absnow54 said:

I was a bit apprehensive about Mike Rinder's participation because his bad mouthing the church has always come off as a disgruntled employee who wants to stick it to Miscavage, and couldn't really care less about the people he was "sticking up" for. It will probably be awkward interviewing some of the people who left the church before him, because he was basically the lead harasser. Leah's given her "I had no idea this was going on!" side of the story, and I hope they address the role Mike Rinder played in the dark side of the leadership.

Just started on this series so I don't know what's to come, but I have a hard time believing Mike will really own up to what he did as a senior member of the church. I want to root for the guy but he has come across as very self-interested in all the interviews I've seen. And not terribly reflective about the results of his actions.

[green]

7 hours ago, lovinbob said:

Just started on this series so I don't know what's to come, but I have a hard time believing Mike will really own up to what he did as a senior member of the church. I want to root for the guy but he has come across as very self-interested in all the interviews I've seen. And not terribly reflective about the results of his actions.

He has owned up to what he did.  Over and over again.  People in that group understand where he was coming from too since they were also brainwashed.  Remember he came aboard via his parents when he was 6 years old.  He is as much a victim as a former victimizer and has spend his life since escaping fighting again this cult.  He's a good guy.

[Tiger]

On 1/18/2017 at 10:14 AM, notyrmomma said:

Ok, I know I'm late to this party, but I have a question about this episode if anyone knows or can offer an opinion: Were there rumors about Shelly's location before the wedding that Leah might have had knowledge of, or did she just say something non-chalantly at the wedding like "Oh hey David, how are you? Where's Shelly?"  Like was she already pissed off with the Jlo thing so she says "....AND WHERE'S SHELLY?" or was it just an innocent question?  This makes a difference.

I find Scientology and all cults fascinating, but I just started reading up again on all the Scientology issues again just recently (I have a long way to catch up with these boards!).  I tried to read Dianetics back in the mid-1990s when I was in college as I had seen it laying around our house for years and was curious.  I couldn't get through 1/3 of the book.  I thought it was nuts and way over my head.  Thank God!  However, I doubt I would have gotten too far into Scientology, because as someone else said, I'm too lazy to do all that stuff.  LOL

My understanding is that "where's Shelly?" was an off-handed comment because Leah thought it was odd that the leader's wife/one of the top brass wasnt at Crui$e'$ wedding.  

[AZChristian]

5 minutes ago, Tiger said:

My understanding is that "where's Shelly?" was an off-handed comment because Leah thought it was odd that the leader's wife/one of the top brass wasnt at Crui$e'$ wedding.  

Yep.  If the husband is best man, wouldn't one assume his wife would at least be his "Plus One" on the invitation?  But according to Leah's book, DM was being physically fawned over by one of his female assistants.

Leah and Shelly had been friends, exchanging Christmas and birthday cards, but she had not heard from Shelly lately.  It was an understandable question.

[Tiger]

3 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Yep.  If the husband is best man, wouldn't one assume his wife would at least be his "Plus One" on the invitation?  But according to Leah's book, DM was being physically fawned over by one of his female assistants.

Leah and Shelly had been friends, exchanging Christmas and birthday cards, but she had not heard from Shelly lately.  It was an understandable question.

That said, and again my understanding, is that Miscavige and other's reaction/response to her off-handed question escalated it to a 'now l'm asking (again) because your pissing me off'.  

Edited January 21, 2017 by Tiger

[Ms.Moon]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

If the husband is best man, wouldn't one assume his wife would at least be his "Plus One" on the invitation?  But according to Leah's book, DM was being physically fawned over by one of his female assistants.

Leah and Shelly had been friends, exchanging Christmas and birthday cards, but she had not heard from Shelly lately.  It was an understandable question.

Exactly all Miscavige had to do was say "Shelly is is Bolivia helping children learn to read using the works of LRH," Leah would have not even batted an eye I think after all Miscavige is Scientology's pope she would not have any reason to think he was lying about anything.  Miscavige is such an arrogant ass though he did not take Leah seriously and actually punished her for asking for her friend especially since she saw him with another woman at such an important Scientology event.  

[LilWharveyGal]

26 minutes ago, Ms.Moon said:

Exactly all Miscavige had to do was say "Shelly is is Bolivia helping children learn to read using the works of LRH," Leah would have not even batted an eye I think after all Miscavige is Scientology's pope she would not have any reason to think he was lying about anything.  Miscavige is such an arrogant ass though he did not take Leah seriously and actually punished her for asking for her friend especially since she saw him with another woman at such an important Scientology event.  

Precisely!  This was my biggest takeaway from Leah's book.  There were SO MANY times when Miscavige or Leah's lower level handlers/auditors could have just blown smoke to appease her, and given her level of dedication to the Co$ at the time I think she would have been satisfied.  Instead they resorted to their usual hostility and it has now blown up in their faces.   

[pinguina]

I agree, LilWharvey Gal.   When you ask a simple question and are ignored or just pushed aside, the question becomes more important (it has happened to me at work - then I get on everyone's nerves insisting on a logical or clear answer).  It seems she just asked a simple question (on top of being used to have Jennifer Lopez there and seeing a baby ignored by the parents/babysitters) and was ignored.  A simple response such as "she didn't want to come/she decided she wanted to work on X or any other reasonable response would have stopped Leah.  Instead they made a big deal of the question which (to me) raised suspicion for her. 

[Wings]

3 hours ago, Ms.Moon said:

Exactly all Miscavige had to do was say "Shelly is is Bolivia helping children learn to read using the works of LRH," Leah would have not even batted an eye I think after all Miscavige is Scientology's pope she would not have any reason to think he was lying about anything.  Miscavige is such an arrogant ass though he did not take Leah seriously and actually punished her for asking for her friend especially since she saw him with another woman at such an important Scientology event.  

That would mean he felt the need to humor an underling or god forbid fear her. Never. NO ONE QUESTIONS THE POPE !  How dare she, off with her head. 

[3girlsforus]

9 minutes ago, wings707 said:

That would mean he felt the need to humor an underling or god forbid fear her. Never. NO ONE QUESTIONS THE POPE !  How dare she, off with her head. 

So much this!! I really don't know if Shelly is alive or not, but if she is, how stupid of him not to trot her out of whatever hole she's stuck in and parade her on his arm for one of these stupid fancy functions and then stuff her back in the hole.  It would be one big 'ha I told you so' to Leah. But he's too high and mighty to stoop to that. It's actually the one thing that makes me think she's dead.  Because it's hard to imagine he's stupid enough not to prove she's alive after all of this publicity. But it's possible that he is that stupid. 

[AZChristian]

Rinder was dragged out of the hole in Hemet and sent on international assignments. He was trying to earn his way out of the hole by cooperating. These folks are prisoners, even when they look like they're free.

[shelley1234]

Until I see her, I am 1000% convinced Shelly is dead.  

[Wings]

45 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

So much this!! I really don't know if Shelly is alive or not, but if she is, how stupid of him not to trot her out of whatever hole she's stuck in and parade her on his arm for one of these stupid fancy functions and then stuff her back in the hole.  It would be one big 'ha I told you so' to Leah. But he's too high and mighty to stoop to that. It's actually the one thing that makes me think she's dead.  Because it's hard to imagine he's stupid enough not to prove she's alive after all of this publicity. But it's possible that he is that stupid. 

She may he dead now but she was spotted, thin and looking sick. Don't know how long ago, maybe a few years.  There is a photo. She was in a local town and recognized. Sorry I  cannot be more specific . I will Google and see if I can find it again. It was just after I read her book early last year.  I must have posted the link. 

[AZChristian]

Was it  maybe at her father's funeral?

[Almost 3000]

2 hours ago, shelley1005 said:

Until I see her, I am 1000% convinced Shelly is dead.

That or ill enough as to be not presentable.

[Wings]

7 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Was it  maybe at her father's funeral?

No. She was walking around in town with a handler. 

[ElsieH]

I think you saw it on Tony Ortega's blog. I saw it there, but I can't remember the date on the entry.

 

ETA: here's the link, it actually wasn't too long ago: http://tonyortega.org/2016/12/15/claim-frail-looking-shelly-miscavige-spotted-near-scientology-compound-in-california/

Edited January 23, 2017 by ElsieH

[pinguina]

Thank you, ElsieH.  I could have sworn it was in the fall.  :)

[Kromm]

Finally watching this show, after years of avoiding it.  I knew pretty much everything about Scientology, because I was a fan of Mark Bunker from way back and saw the unraveling of Scientology via that lens long before a lot of these other people left.  I've seen a lot of the news reports and specials, but held back on this because while she was in the Church, I found Remini to be one of the most objectionable spokespeople.  Whereas Cruise and Travolta soft peddled it, Remini was a celeb attack dog on behalf of Scientology. I remember an appearance way back on Howard Stern, for example, where she was spitting fire and vitriol about critics of Scientology for 2 hours straight.  Or you'd see her on Access Hollywood or Extra dropping little poison barbs as well.  

So I avoided this show, because of that.

But I'm watching now. It confirms a few things. She's a loudmouth no matter what side she's on.  Someone who talks over others, pontificates, dominates, etc.

That said, she did the one thing I was looking for... she admitted that she hurt/damaged other people by her conduct.  This didn't totally win me over, but it put me in a place where I can accept her flaws and believe her motivation for this.  No doubt she's made some money off her book and this show, so there's always going to be some skepticism, but it's not like I doubt what I'm hearing otherwise, since it's been covered and supported in so many other places before.  And a few episodes in she does say some other things that convinced me of her sincerity.