S01.E08: Trace Decay

[gatopretoNYC]

3 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And the song on the player piano at the start of the episode was "House of the Rising Sun" by The Doors.

I'm starting to think that Maeve's army building is 'the incident' that occurred 30 years ago.

Yes House of the Rising Sun was another great choice, since its about a brothel. It's by The Animals, though. :)

I think the Maeve thing is happening now, isn't it? Clementine v1 was just taken out of service, which we know to be current.

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, okerry said:

Pretty sure that song is by The Animals, but that's okay - it was cool hearing it either way!

I was going to say Dolly Parton, but I knew she was not the original singer of this song :D

[jojozigs]

So Did William kill almost dead confederate kid?  They conveniently avoided showing us what happened by having Delores freak out (unless I missed it).  Seemed like he was about to kill him in order to get Delores to keep going with him.  Which if he did, not cool.

Regarding the maze - it seems like we now know that MiBs obsession with it started with Maeve, not with Delores as most on board with MiB=William had likely assumed.  

Can anyone remember if we have had a clear, no ambiguity mention of the maze when William is present?  

[that one guy]

16 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And the song on the player piano at the start of the episode was "House of the Rising Sun" by The Doors.

That's an old, old song . . . Georgia Turner, Willie Guthrie, and Josh White all recorded versions of it before Jim Morrison was born. Its origin is unknown, so it's the first song on the player piano that was probably sung in the Old West, and isn't an anachronism. Bob Dylan's version is still the best.

[phoenyx]

16 minutes ago, okerry said:

Pretty sure that song is by The Animals, but that's okay - it was cool hearing it either way!

Technically, it wasn't by The Animals either, though their version of it made it well known...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_House_of_the_Rising_Sun

[okerry]

so - was Maeve only able to slash Sylvester because he is - not human?

[phoenyx]

Just now, okerry said:

so - was Maeve only able to slash Sylvester because he is - not human?

What gives you the impression that he's not human? The fact that she was able to slash him? I think enough tinkering's been done with her software that she may be able to manage that herself. One thing though- I'm wondering if telling Lutz to save him may have been the last vestiges of her programming not to kill humans, although I acknowledge that it may really be for the reason she said, that she might need him.

[Avaleigh]

I feel like we got some pretty strong evidence in this episode that there are two timelines at work. 

The woman who stabbed Teddy is the same host who introduced William to the park back in the second episode. I knew I recognized her and her voice, but couldn't put my finger on it, so I looked up the actress and am pretty sure that it's the same one who played the host who works in the modern part of the park. Maybe she was assigned to another job in a short period of time, but isn't that a hell of a coincidence? The MIB is surprised to see that she hasn't been decommissioned. 

I don't think that the MIB is Logan. There's no way that Logan would be able to hide the dark side of his personality the way that the MIB seems to have been able to. 

I agree that the two techs are morons and am hoping that there's some sort of twist that at least one or both of them are hosts because I don't get how they could be so stupid. They could have turned her lights out ages ago. My guess is that the one guy wants Maeve to succeed because he too wants to be free on some level even if he doesn't fully realize it yet. I just don't understand why he would take Maeve at her word that she won't kill anyone when she's given every indication that she'll cut a bitch and kill if she has to. 

So much for the idea of Theresa coming back as a host without anyone being the wiser. I was sort of hoping that would happen but now that everyone knows she's dead, I don't see the point of making a host version of her. Elsie OTOH it seems like there's still a possibility that this might happen. Still, I was certain that Ford and Bernard were already planning on making a host version of Teresa and that's why Bernard made those comments that took note of her body language and was so fascinated with it. 

Loved hearing House of the Rising Sun. This show has been killing it with the music selections. 

[DarkRaichu]

What we know so far:
1. MiB's real life wife died 1 year ago because Maeve has only been Madame for 1 year (per Felix in ep 5/6? ).  So Maeve rebellious behavior happened quite recently.

2. Delos is actively trying to get the all data out of facility

3. Ashley Stubbs actually has a brain.

4.  Dolores was experiencing flashbacks from at least 2 different timelines.  When she saw dancing bots, that was from way back before the park opened (per Ford's story).  There was 1 scene where she was walking by herself without William looking at empty town.  That was definitely a different timeline than when she was with William, because BOTH of them saw the church already buried.

 

Who is that black woman that moved the dancing bot back to place?  Could she be Charlotte's mother???  Or maybe that WAS Arnold :P  That would be a nice little surprise :D :D :D

 

Here is a thought / theory:
What if Felix = Arnold, or at least his real world accomplice ?  Nobody could be this dumb to choose a bot over his job that he himself said he needed.  He could have infiltrated Westworld to get close to Maeve, since Maeve was special.  How long has Felix been working at Westworld anyway??

[feverfew]

Charlotte Hale said that Ford had excarvated a city in the desert - that's why Dolores sees a whole (but empty) town when she's alone. Bugger all. I'm a bit upset; I've never been fond of William=MIB and especially now with the MIB's story of himself (telling it while sounding almost bored) I'm even less exited about it. Fool me for buying into the fiction of a truely compassioned human being on a show that deals with slavery.

[Quilt Fairy]

I really think that Felix and Sylvester are hosts.  It makes a lot of sense beyond Maeve being able to control them by way of her charisma and her tits.  We already know that many of the maintenance workers in the park are hosts, that even Bernard is a host, so why not these 2 low-level "butchers"? I thought a significant clue was after Maeve slashed Sylvester's  throat (looked like she got his jugular) and then handed Felix one of the tools used to work on the hosts and says "Fix him, we may need him later".  Would a tool like that work on a human?

[bmoore4026]

46 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

MiB backstory was rather sad.  If Mib=William, was he subconsciously having affair on his wife (assuming Logan's sister) with the Westworld park (he is addicted to it no question) to get back to her for picking him because he was a "safe" choice??

He probably found something in Dolores he couldn't find in the real world: empathy.  After leaving Westworld, everything else would pale in comparison.

[Avaleigh]

I don't think that Felix is Arnold but I am definitely considering the possibility that there's a deeper reason he's helping Maeve. He can't possibly be that stupid and trusting, can he? 

4 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Who is that black woman that moved the dancing bot back to place?  Could she be Charlotte's mother???  Or maybe that WAS Arnold :P  That would be a nice little surprise :D :D :D

I've been wondering if Charlotte somehow inherited her position and that's why she's so young because I agree that it's strange that she has so much power at such a young age, especially when she doesn't seem to possess qualities like impulse control. 

I really like that Ford made a mistake by wiping too many of Bernard's memories of Theresa to the point that Ashley already knows something weird is going on. Ford thinks he's so clever and that he controls his world but he can't suppress everything. 

Is William seriously just going to go black hat once Dolores eventually gets reset? That seems like an overreaction. Surely there has to be more to it?

1 minute ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I really think that Felix and Sylvester are hosts.  It makes a lot of sense beyond Maeve being able to control them by way of her charisma and her tits.  We already know that many of the maintenance workers in the park are hosts, that even Bernard is a host, so why not these 2 low-level "butchers"? I thought a significant clue was after Maeve slashed Sylvester's  throat (looked like she got his jugular) and then handed Felix one of the tools used to work on the hosts and says "Fix him, we may need him later".  Would a tool like that work on a human?

Was Sylvester one of the techs involved in extracurricular activities with the hosts? If so, this makes me think that he's human because would a robot really be interested in something like that? 

Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree that at least Felix seems like he could be a host and that he's helping Maeve because he knows that it's the best way that he'll be able to help himself. 

I still don't get how these guys have managed to keep everything they've been up to a secret from their superiors. Furthermore, how is it that Maeve has been able to go in for so many check ups lately if she hasn't been injured by a host or a guest? Wouldn't the people in charge wonder why she's been pulled out of the park so often? I'm very unclear as to how much time has passed since Maeve first started having her issues and where we are now? I'm equally unclear as to how much time has passed in the William Dolores storyline. His time there should be up soon, shouldn't it?

As for the bomb in the spine--I'm guessing that precaution was put in place after whatever happened at the park thirty years ago.   

[Cthulhudrew]

While I think the MiB/William theory is increasingly likely, I just can't see how it is possible Jimmi Simpson comes to look like Ed Harris, even if show-wise the two men are supposed to be 30 years apart (RL, they're 25). Even if the actor playing William were much younger, I don't see how it would be possible. 

I suppose MiB could actually be a Host and not realize it, nor the other Hosts realize it (we saw last ep that the Hosts could be programmed to "read" another Host as human, after all).

EDIT: Kind of funny where we draw the line at our willingness to suspend disbelief. 3-D printed androids, complete with AI and consciousness? Okay. The human body aging in ways that don't seem plausible? I refute thee!

Edited November 21, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[numbnut]

22 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Who is that black woman that moved the dancing bot back to place?  Could she be Charlotte's mother???  Or maybe that WAS Arnold :P  That would be a nice little surprise :D :D :D

The MiB twice described Arnold as a "man" but I'm still not sure if he met him in person.

1 minute ago, Avaleigh said:

I really like that Ford made a mistake by wiping too many of Bernard's memories of Theresa to the point that Ashley already knows something weird is going on. Ford thinks he's so clever and that he controls his world but he can't suppress everything. 

I'm hoping Elsie 2.0 shows up for work and Stubbs notices something odd about her, like if she only does what's in her job description.

[DarkRaichu]

52 minutes ago, jojozigs said:

So Did William kill almost dead confederate kid?  They conveniently avoided showing us what happened by having Delores freak out (unless I missed it).  Seemed like he was about to kill him in order to get Delores to keep going with him.  Which if he did, not cool.

The kid revealed that Logan was after them, thus William was anxious to leave immediately.  Presumably they would have stayed longer had Dolores got her way and comforted the dying kid. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[DarkRaichu]

8 minutes ago, numbnut said:

The MiB twice described Arnold as a "man" but I'm still not sure if he met him in person.

I'm hoping Elsie 2.0 shows up for work and Stubbs notices something odd about her, like if she only does what's in her job description.

Exactly, and IIRC Ford only mention his partner by name, ie. Arnold, and not by gender specific destination

Or if Elsie 2.0 does not employ sarcasm in every other lines.  Got to be hard to program wit and fresh sarcasm ;)

[Goatherd]

Another thing we got confirmation of is that Maeve is an "original" -- she was present for pre-park dance instructions. It seemed obvious from her skills that she's an Arnold Series 1, but it's nice to have her age affirmed.

[QuantumMechanic]

One problem I have with the MiB=William theory is that the MiB has previously mentioned that when it looked like the park was going to go all to hell after Arnold died, he helped save it.  Yet William is merely some schlub in Logan's family's business.

[Cthulhudrew]

3 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

One problem I have with the MiB=William theory is that the MiB has previously mentioned that when it looked like the park was going to go all to hell after Arnold died, he helped save it.  Yet William is merely some schlub in Logan's family's business.

I don't think he's just any old schlub; I think he is some high level manager or director or something that actually earned his position through merit, while Logan just happens to outrank him due to nepotism, and William is now marrying into the family biz.

[arc]

3 hours ago, sneakyflute said:

This episode confirmed the theory. MiB was married for 30 years and saves the same host that greeted him 30 years ago. The church that was buried has been unearthed by Ford in the present. 

I unno, even when that town was being terrorized in one of Dolores' flashbacks, the church wasn't destroyed yet. Now they're back and William is here with the destroyed steeple.

1 hour ago, jojozigs said:

So Did William kill almost dead confederate kid?  They conveniently avoided showing us what happened by having Delores freak out (unless I missed it).  Seemed like he was about to kill him in order to get Delores to keep going with him.  Which if he did, not cool.

Looks to me like he sure wanted to. Logan would have just shot the kid though. If William did it, he did it very quietly to hide it from Dolores and IMO there's no way to be sure the kid wouldn't struggle and make noise.

On the other hand, maybe he did smother the guy, the guy did struggle, and Dolores conveniently had a flashback that made her not notice, which would have worked out well for William.

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

Was Sylvester one of the techs involved in extracurricular activities with the hosts? If so, this makes me think that he's human because would a robot really be interested in something like that?  

He said he was going to enjoy himself (ew, and also I forget the exact words) in a VR tank for his lunch break. Which is a little odd because Felix already knew Sylvester was hacking the hosts in the Livestock dept to allow his fellow butchers to have sex with them. So a little weird that Sylvester wouldn't be doing that himself instead of jacking off in VR. I apologize for the grossness of this paragraph.

Anyways, if Bernard can feel love and lust, it's still possibly Sylvester is a host, just a more venal one than Bernard.

56 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Exactly, and IIRC Ford only mention his partner by name, ie. Arnold, and not by gender specific destination

At the plantation restaurant, Ford said things like "He begged me not to let you people in. The money men. Delos. But I told him we'd be fine."

OK, so, Maeve is now equipped with admin powers. She wants "an army". But when Hector's team robbed the Mariposa, that wasn't her escape plan. She stayed at least one more day, then tried to walk out of Sweetwater, eventually getting caught by the cleanup techs. So presumably, she put something in the safe that'll help her with her actual escape.

I'd also like to pat myself on the back yet again for noticing that Bernard got his backstory in the episode ("The Stray") where we got exposition that backstory grounds a host. I'd also like to congratulate myself from another insight I had in that thread:

Quote

I'm on a "loop" where I take the subway about the same time every weekday and get into the office about the same time every weekday.

Because Ford got to it tonight. He was more eloquent, but in my defense I'm tossing these off the cuff and he's got some great writers. Anyways, Ford:

Quote

Humans fancy that there's something special about the way we perceive the world and yet, we live in loops as tight and as closed as the hosts do, seldom questioning our choices, content for the most part to be told what to do next.

Edited November 21, 2016 by arc

[Lingo]

4 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

One problem I have with the MiB=William theory is that the MiB has previously mentioned that when it looked like the park was going to go all to hell after Arnold died, he helped save it.  Yet William is merely some schlub in Logan's family's business.

So far.

What if the "incident" from 30 years ago is Logan's death? Maybe William flips out, murders Logan, pins it on a bot (Dolores), then goes home and is promoted in the company to Logan's old position. Then he's in a position to save the park, and ultimately take over Logan's family and become the respected "titan of industry" and philanthropist.

[QuantumMechanic]

5 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I don't think he's just any old schlub; I think he is some high level manager or director or something that actually earned his position through merit, while Logan just happens to outrank him due to nepotism, and William is now marrying into the family biz.

Perhaps.  But there's zero indication he's in any position to save the park.

Now that I think about it a little more, when Logan and William arrive, didn't Logan allude (not by name) to Arnold disappearing or there being some problem with Ford's "partner"?  If so, that would seem to me to be further evidence against William=MiB, since whatever park-saving stuff happened happened before we even saw William for the first time.  And when the MiB talked about saving the park I thought the context of the phrase placed it squarely in the just-after-Arnold-died time.

Edited November 21, 2016 by QuantumMechanic

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, Lingo said:

So far.

What if the "incident" from 30 years ago is Logan's death? Maybe William flips out, murders Logan, pins it on a bot (Dolores), then goes home and is promoted in the company to Logan's old position. Then he's in a position to save the park, and ultimately take over Logan's family and become the respected "titan of industry" and philanthropist.

Or Ford covered up for either William or Logan's action (ie. killing the other) and got some much needed investment in exchange.

[Lingo]

Logan and William's conversation didn't mention how long ago Arnold's death was supposed to be. He just mentioned that the park is still "hemorrhaging money". So William and Logan's storyline could be soon after Arnold's death. 

[DarkRaichu]

10 minutes ago, arc said:

At the plantation restaurant, Ford said things like "He begged me not to let you people in. The money men. Delos. But I told him we'd be fine."

Ah forgot about that

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, Lingo said:

Logan and William's conversation didn't mention how long ago Arnold's death was supposed to be. He just mentioned that the park is still "hemorrhaging money". So William and Logan's storyline could be soon after Arnold's death. 

Not that soon.  The park obviously was operational for a while for Logan to take notice and for Logan to visit a few times prior to that scene

ETA: and for Logan's team of lawyers to investigate

Edited November 21, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Lingo]

1 hour ago, jojozigs said:

So Did William kill almost dead confederate kid?  They conveniently avoided showing us what happened by having Delores freak out (unless I missed it).  Seemed like he was about to kill him in order to get Delores to keep going with him.  Which if he did, not cool.

Regarding the maze - it seems like we now know that MiBs obsession with it started with Maeve, not with Delores as most on board with MiB=William had likely assumed.  

Can anyone remember if we have had a clear, no ambiguity mention of the maze when William is present?  

That kid seemed to be breathing and moaning up to the very second Dolores walked back up to him, so I feel like William didn't kill him behind her back. I think the scene was intended to show him continuing to slowly lose his empathy for bots not named Dolores.

I'm pretty sure the maze has never been mentioned in William's presense. I do remember that the Maze symbol was on the coffin on the train -- even in shots with William -- but he didn't notice it. This episode may also be the first time Dolores has mentioned Arnold to William, although I'm less sure about that.

[FemmyV]

Wondering if MiB's goal is to get killed and have his consciousness uploaded, somehow, as a host.

[Lingo]

10 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Not that soon.  The park obviously was operational for a while for Logan to take notice and for Logan to visit a few times prior to that scene

ETA: and for Logan's team of lawyers to investigate

About 4-5 years, perhaps? It's not unrealistic for a company to lose money for a long time before finally going under. I think the timeline works, but we'll see.

[Cthulhudrew]

14 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Wondering if MiB's goal is to get killed and have his consciousness uploaded, somehow, as a host.

Did MiB mention that he was a surgeon in an early episode? I can't recall for certain. In any event, I'm wondering if the mysterious purpose Delos has for the Hosts is to use the process Ford has created to create artificial replacement parts for human bodies.

[Lingo]

Can we take a moment to appreciate how well the show has done the last few episodes to end on a wonderful note of dread and creepiness? MIB's sad backstory interwoven with Maeve's current storyline, climaxing with that girl bot (I'm going to call her Talulah) stabbing Teddy in the chest... I don't know if that actually surprised any of you, it didn't surprise me, but I just loved that final shot on Talulah, where you look behind her and suddenly all the shadows start slowly creeping around and you realize all of Wyatt's people have been right there in plain view the whole time...whew! I got chills. And whoever's composing the soundtrack is just killing it, especially over the closing credits.

[jeansheridan]

Another fact we have learned, Gina Torres isn't real.  Just a cameo.

Also did we actually see Maeve in the dance sequence?  Names are reused with new hosts (Clementine, Dolores father).

I hope Felix is a host.  Felix at least. He is so silent.  I do wonder why Sylvester allowed him to run the attempt at shutting her down. If they are both hosts so much would make sense.

I don't think Ashley is a host however.  Kudos to Helmsworth for looking suspicious but not overdoing it.

I can't wait for Maeve to meet Bernard.  

[DarkRaichu]

14 minutes ago, Lingo said:

About 4-5 years, perhaps? It's not unrealistic for a company to lose money for a long time before finally going under. I think the timeline works, but we'll see.

That's what I said back in ep 4.  Assuming Dolores conversation with Ford was the present day, then Arnold died 34+some months ago. Logan said 'Ford's partner died just before the park was opened.  The last accident happened 30 years ago.  Assuming the accident had to do with William/Logan then the park was operational for at least 4 years by the time William visited.

Acknowledge there are 2 big IFs there :P

[henripootel]

11 hours ago, Lingo said:

One problem I have with the MiB=William theory is that the MiB has previously mentioned that when it looked like the park was going to go all to hell after Arnold died, he helped save it.  Yet William is merely some schlub in Logan's family's business.

Another is that I was sure Meave and William were in the same timeline (although now I'm not so sure).  If they are, then it was odd that we saw the MiB tip Meave over the edge by killing her child when he looks like the MiB already, at least in his own memory.  I thought Meave's rebellion was set 30 years in the past, from the MiB's perspective, so how is that possible?  We did see Meave interacting with Ford so unless the Ford we saw her talking to was a Host (or like 100 years old), her rebellion was in the past.  I'm left to conclude that in his own recollection, the MiB sees himself as he is now, not as he was then, like William.  

Or I'm just confused.  I'm still stuck that much of this isn't making a lick of sense.  It's easy to overlook this in a show rife with really great performances and actors, but we're 8 episodes in and I'm still scratching my head way too much.  For instance, still not sure why I should be all invested in the MiB's quest for the maze.  Seems to me like he's basically uncovering easter eggs, stuff left in 'the game' for clever guests to find, which is cool but the MiB seems to think it has some deeper meaning.  William too seems to think he's having some sort of revelatory experience, meaningful and fraught with peril, when the truth is he's basically in an obscure corner of Disneyland.  Anything he finds was put there for him to find, and he knows that, but also seems to be acting like he doesn't know that.  I'm still confused by why William finds so much weight in his fake adventure, even if he does have a genuine boner for Dolores.  

Edited November 21, 2016 by henripootel

[arc]

Just now, henripootel said:

 I'm still confused by why William finds so much weight in his fake adventure, even if he's does have a boner for Dolores.  

I've certainly been drawn in hard by videogames, and those are experiences I'm only having through a TV screen and gamepad.

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, Lingo said:

Wyatt's people have been right there in plain view the whole time...whew! I got chills. And whoever's composing the soundtrack is just killing it, especially over the closing credits.

Speaking of Wyatt's men, are they supposed to be Minotaurs?  I thought the head was some kind of helm or mask, but it bled when Teddy axed it.

Also, a picture of a man with similar head gear was on Sizemore's screen by the map of the park

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Another is that I was sure Meave and William were in the same timeline (although now I'm not so sure).  If they are, then it was odd that we saw the MiB tip Meave over the edge by killing her child when he looks like the MiB already, at least in his own memory.  I thought Meave's rebellion was set 30 years in the past, from the MiB's perspective, so how is that possible?  We did see Meave interacting with Ford so unless the Ford we saw her talking to was a Host (or like 100 years old), her rebellion was in the past.  I'm left to conclude that in his own recollection, the MiB sees himself as he is now, not as he was then, like William.  

Maeve never met William.  Clementine met William several times, but not Maeve

[arc]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Speaking of Wyatt's men, are they supposed to be Minotaurs?  I thought the head was some kind of helm or mask, but it bled when Teddy axed it.

Could be the underlying head's blood? I feel like actual man-beast hybrids, while certainly possible given the technology, wouldn't fit with the straightforward Old West Ford wanted to create. Now, the videogame Red Dead Redemption did create an expansion pack that introduced zombies, restructuring the entire narrative, but that seems like more of a Sizemore thing to do. The Wyatt storyline is Ford's invention.

Sigh, I guess the producers just meant in ep 8 that we'd find out Felix is hella naive and that's why he didn't dial Maeve's intelligence down a few episodes ago instead of up.

[henripootel]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Maeve never met William.  Clementine met William several times, but not Maeve

If it was original-flavor Clementine (and not the new one - hi Lili Simmons, glad to see you getting work after Banshee), then we know William and Meave are in the same timeline.  We saw Original Clementine get permanently retired, and Meave witnessed it.  Ergo, Meave started her rebellion 30 years before the current MiB stuff.

[Goatherd]

DarkR, that's the timeline I'm assuming as well. But I'm still confused about the Arnold timeline. We've been told Arnold died before the park was open to visitors. But Ford also talked about losing a bet with Arnold, because people (presumably guests) chose the kill/rape storylines over the ones Ford hoped they'd enjoy. Okay, maybe that was a beta test period, where there were guests but the park wasn't really "open"...?

But there's also the quote mentioned above, about Arnold not wanting to let Delos in. If Delos is the company that Logan/William are a part of, were they in the picture before the park even opened? That would mean the money troubles pre-dated Arnold's death.

The only way I can make sense of that is if the Ford/Arnold argument was about "money men" in general, and Ford is adding his own spin to that memory by specificying Delos.

 

One other note -- interesting part of MiB's story about his wife, where an apparent "tragic accident" was really a suicide. Reminds me of Arnold's "accidental" death (which some folks here have suggested might have actually been a suicide). Hey, maybe working beside Ford every day is as unpleasant as being married to MiB!

[gatopretoNYC]

Can someone with a larger tv answer this for me please: In the flashback to the hosts learning to dance, was the blonde who wandered off from her partner Armistice?

[arc]

1 minute ago, henripootel said:

If it was original-flavor Clementine (and not the new one - hi Lili Simmons, glad to see you getting work after Banshee), then we know William and Meave are in the same timeline.  We saw Original Clementine get permanently retired, and Meave witnessed it.  Ergo, Meave started her rebellion 30 years before the current MiB stuff.

First off, it's Maeve. A before E here.

Anyways, I agree that William and Maeve are in the same timeline for the reason you just said. But to me that strongly implies that William is also in the same timeline with MIB. Because Maeve is in the timeline with MIB. She wasn't a madam until MIB went super black hat last year.

[Goatherd]

Huh? Original Clem was only recently retired (present day). Up until that (also present day), she's been working for Maeve. But longer ago, Clementine was the madam (Stubbs specifically told us she used to play that role). So 30 years ago, when William first visited, he saw Clementine (but NOT Maeve) out front of the saloon. Back then, Maeve was in the park, but she was in a different role, maybe not even near Sweetwater.

So Maeve-as-madam is always present day or fairly recent, since she was only given that role about a year ago. Maeve's rebellion is current.

[Lingo]

8 minutes ago, henripootel said:

If it was original-flavor Clementine (and not the new one - hi Lili Simmons, glad to see you getting work after Banshee), then we know William and Meave are in the same timeline.  

Why?? Maeve and Clementine are two different ageless robots. William and Clementine met 30 years ago. Clementine was already a prostitute at that time (possibly the madam), and as we learned last week and this week, Maeve became the madam only a year ago, after her incident with now-old MIB.

[arc]

37 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Also did we actually see Maeve in the dance sequence?  Names are reused with new hosts (Clementine, Dolores father).

She's dancing in the background with a black hat guy, right at the edge as the tech examines the dancers.

9 minutes ago, gatopretoNYC said:

Can someone with a larger tv answer this for me please: In the flashback to the hosts learning to dance, was the blonde who wandered off from her partner Armistice?

I think so, but a lot of people look similar to me, esp if they're all pretty enough to be on TV. She definitely didn't have a snake tattoo on her face, though.

edit: yes, on second thought I was wrong, Clementine doesn't draw a logical line that connects Maeve to William.

Edited November 21, 2016 by arc

[thuganomics85]

Hey, Clementine 2.0. is Lili Simmons!  Good as choice as any, I guess!  And... she already gets her throat slit.  Some tech out there is like "WTF?!  We just put her in this role!!"  It is hard out there for a host.  Not sure what is going on with Maeve.  Certainly seems like she is remembering things now about her past hosting stints, and it is causing her to lash out.  And I this better be leading to her meeting the Man in Black.  I can only imagine how that would go down!

Speaking of MIB, this episode sure did seem to to be hinting more about him possibly being a future William, with that moment where MIB clearly recognizes the host that William first met in the changing room.  Granted, I'm guessing she had that position for some time and others met her the same way, but it felt like there had to be a reason to mention it.  But it could all be a red herring too, I guess.  I wonder if we'll even get a reveal by the time the season wraps ups.  His backstory was interesting though and Ed Harris was amazing.  Creepy and scary, but somewhat sympathetic.

Dolores and William are still kind of dull, but at least Logan has return with a whole bunch of Union soldiers, so that should shake things up!

I'm still not entire sure what is going on with Felix and Sly just letting Maeve walk over them.  Are they possibly hosts and she is just controlling them?  Or does she just now have the ability to harm humans?  Still hope we get some answers on this front.  Until then, I continue to love Maeve running the show, and how she deliberately messed around with the shootout, in order for Hector and Armistice to escape.  I have no idea what her actual plan will be, but I can't wait to see it.  Thandie Newton continues to be the MVP.

Surprised that Ford didn't replace Theresa, but is trying to make it look like an "accident."  Definitely got the sense that Hale knows something shady is going down.  While a bit too much of a coincidence, I'm glad that is seems like this is going to lead to the former Abernathy host coming back into the fold.

Ford might have made Bernard take out Elise, too?  Harsh!  I so hope Bernard gets the upper hand against Ford somehow.  Maybe he'll end up being involved with whatever Maeve is trying to do.

Stubbs knowing about Bernard/Theresa and therefore, knowing that Bernard is more then just a co-worker to her, is probably the most interesting he's been.

Two episodes left!  Have no idea what in the hell is going to happen!

[arc]

I'm so confused. Yes, Angela being used in the Wyatt storyline, when MIB thought she'd been retired, does suggest William is on a different timeline than MIB. Last-ditch fanwank: Ford's new narrative even requisitioned hosts from the greeting area.

[Lingo]

40 minutes ago, henripootel said:

For instance, still not sure why I should be all invested in the MiB's quest for the maze.  Seems to me like he's basically uncovering easter eggs, stuff left in 'the game' for clever guests to find, which is cool but the MiB seems to think it has some deeper meaning.  William too seems to think he's having some sort of revelatory experience, meaningful and fraught with peril, when the truth is he's basically in and obscure corner of Disneyland.  Anything he finds was put there for him to find, and he knows that, but also seems to be acting like he doesn't know that.  I'm still confused by why William finds so much weight in his fake adventure, even if he's does have a genuine boner for Dolores.  

MIB has mentioned that he's here to set the hosts "free". He seems to have figured out that the maze is Arnold's secret way of giving the hosts consciousness, or setting them free from the artificial limits of their programming and allowing them to do things like leave the park and kill humans (you're not really free unless you can kill a human!). For some reason it seems he wants to help them reach this goal. He believes it would give meaning to the lives of the hosts, and somehow to his own life too. In this episode he saw something in Maeve that he'd never seen before, a level of grief that convinced him she was alive. Maybe it gave him a moment of regret and he decided that he should set the other hosts free as a sort of compensation for all the terror he's unleashed upon them all these years?

As for William, yeah, I dunno why he's so invested in his little adventure with Dolores. We're supposed to believe it's because he can really be his true self out there, but the writing and acting aren't really selling it for me.

[Goatherd]

LOL arc. Although I do believe in the two timelines, your last ditch effort is a good one!

What amuses me is the thought that the showrunners maybe had no idea the viewers would figure this twist out so early. They gave us Host Bernard as the  big mid-season reveal, and maybe seeing Dressing Room Host this week is supposed to be our first real "Whuh???" moment that makes us scramble back through all the preceding episodes to make sense of it. Then the giant timeline "reveal" will come in the final episodes. And to be fair, there's zero chance I'd have come up with the theory on my own. But the Internets are pretty clever...maybe more so than the writers expected.