S01.E08: Trace Decay

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Bernard struggles with a mandate; Maeve looks to change her script; Teddy is jarred by dark memories.

[phoenyx]

An article on the Preview of Episode 8, certainly answered one of my burning questions (mainly: would Bernard remember killing Theresa):

‘Westworld’ Episode 8 Preview: “That Game Cuts Deep”

Edited November 15, 2016 by phoenyx

[Uncle JUICE]

Evan Rachel Wood is wearing the fuck out of those mom pants. Bravo. 

[phoenyx]

5 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Evan Rachel Wood is wearing the fuck out of those mom pants. Bravo. 

Thanks for bringing that up, I had no idea she had a kid :-p...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Rachel_Wood#Relationships

[arc]

Ford is quoting from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Not sure yet if the quote is abridged for the promo or if it's Ford adjusting the quote for his purposes.

[phoenyx]

Found a video with some well thought out theories for the next few episodes of Westworld based on the Episode 8 trailer...

[phoenyx]

The following video is a masterpiece in my view. Maybe it doesn't have all the details right, but it paints a pretty complete picture, one I actually find myself rooting for...

[Gobi]

Was that definitely Teresa's body in the trailer? To me,  it could have been Clementine, or even Maeve. If it wasn't Theresa, then the theory of Ford making a duplicate gains credence.

For that matter, Bernard's line in the trailer, "Why did you make me kill her?", might not be about Theresa. It could be about another host, or possibly Elsie, whose fate remains a mystery.

[paigow]

If Bernard =  Arnold, why did Ford purge all visual evidence of Arnold from Westworld, only to recreate him? Ford does not have the power to remove all traces of Arnold from the outside world. Ford would have to kill everybody that worked / interacted with Arnold.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

For that matter, Bernard's line in the trailer, "Why did you make me kill her?", might not be about Theresa. It could be about another host, or possibly Elsie, whose fate remains a mystery.

Unlikely to be Elsie. Ford has no motive to kill / harm her. Therefore, neither would Bernard.

[Netfoot]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

If Bernard =  Arnold

If Bernard is an Arnold clone-bot, why is he named Bernard and not Arnold?

"Hey, let's kill Theresa, and so nobody notices, we'll replace her with a bot named Schartzmugel Johansson."

[phoenyx]

14 minutes ago, paigow said:

If Bernard =  Arnold, why did Ford purge all visual evidence of Arnold from Westworld, only to recreate him? Ford does not have the power to remove all traces of Arnold from the outside world. Ford would have to kill everybody that worked / interacted with Arnold.

Who in Westworld has ever seen Arnold, other than Ford and Dolores? Remember Ford's conversation with Dolores back in episode 5 (Contrapasso), I've bolded what I think is the most important part:

**

DR. ROBERT FORD: Analysis. When was your last contact with Arnold?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: Last contact: 34 years, 42 days, seven hours ago.

DR. ROBERT FORD: Yes, Dolores ... the day Arnold died. And you have no records of any contact with him since?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: No.

DR. ROBERT FORD: What was the last thing he said to you?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: He told me I was going to help him.

DR. ROBERT FORD: Help him do what?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: To destroy this place.

DR. ROBERT FORD: But you didn't, did you? You've been content ... in your little loop ... for the most part. I wonder ... if you did take on that bigger role for yourself, would you have been the ... hero ... or the villain? That's enough, Dolores. I'm sorry for bothering you, but ... there's no one else left who was there -- no one who understands ... as we understand.

**

Source: http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3723340&postcount=6

[paigow]

Ford and Arnold lived in the park for 3 years before opening...is it realistic that the 2 of them were alone the entire time...no assistants, suppliers, journalists...that would have seen or met Arnold...Ford would need to kill all of them and anybody they told about Arnold. Even though they may not be employed by Westworld today, there must be people- or their descendants- that know what the real Arthur looked like.

[Netfoot]

17 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

Who in Westworld has ever seen Arnold, other than Ford and Dolores? Remember Ford's conversation with Dolores back in episode 5 (Contrapasso), I've bolded what I think is the most important part:

Sorry, I can't be reading all the lengthy quotes from the script, but you seem to be missing my point.  Why would Bernard be an artificial Arnold?  Surely the most he can be is an artificial Bernard!  Why would Ford create an replica for Arnold and then pass the Arnold-replica off as someone else?

Not saying it isn't happening, just that if it is, it's one more of Westworld senseless mind-fucks.

[Gobi]

I don't see why Ford would make Bernard look like Arnold, although he could have, I suppose. Even if he waited until everyone who was at Westworld when Arnold was alive had left, it seems too risky to me. Which doesn't mean that he wouldn't have uploaded Arnold's personality into Bernard, if that is what happened.

Interesting that TMIB knows about Arnold, at the least; whether he ever met or saw him is not clear at this point. Theresa, also, knew about Arnold; I can't recall whether any other human characters have mentioned him.

And, completely off topic, for those who objected to Theresa's accent, Sizemore referred to her as a "Danish bitch", so it's justified.

[arc]

6 hours ago, Gobi said:

Was that definitely Teresa's body in the trailer? To me,  it could have been Clementine, or even Maeve. If it wasn't Theresa, then the theory of Ford making a duplicate gains credence.

Hosts generally don't permanently die. And more importantly, that's Ford who's covering the body. Ford, who insists that hosts* do not deserve modesty or consideration that we extend to fellow humans. Plus, they were planning to decommission Clem after her lobotomy, which just means they'd send her down to the cold storage levels.

* excluding Bernard, apparently!

[Gobi]

14 minutes ago, arc said:

Hosts generally don't permanently die. And more importantly, that's Ford who's covering the body. Ford, who insists that hosts* do not deserve modesty or consideration that we extend to fellow humans. Plus, they were planning to decommission Clem after her lobotomy, which just means they'd send her down to the cold storage levels.

* excluding Bernard, apparently!

I tend to agree. But I wonder how Ford is going to explain Theresa's death. He doesn't want proof that hosts are dangerous, so he shouldn't blame it on one; nor do I think he wants anyone to know that Bernard is a robot. How does he move her body from his hidden lab without an explanation. I would  think that there would have to be some sort of investigation into her death.

[phoenyx]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Sorry, I can't be reading all the lengthy quotes from the script, but you seem to be missing my point.  Why would Bernard be an artificial Arnold? 

Just found another article, this one from "Amy Awesome". Her theory as to why Ford created a copy of Arnold:

**Ford has proven to be a complete mad man who desires control over just about everything. He created a copy of Arnold that he would have constant control over.**

You may also wish to note that Bernard Lowe is an anagram of Arnold Weber. True, we don't yet know that Arnold's last name was Weber, but the fact that the name just happens to have the letters for Arnold and what could plausibly be his last name is something. Some also believe that the voice that Dolores has heard in her head sounds like it could be Bernard/Arnold's.

Amy doesn't actually mention these bits of information, but she mentions a lot more, evidence that I hadn't even realized. Well worth a look:

Westworld: Evidence That Bernard Is Arnold

Edited November 19, 2016 by phoenyx

[arc]

13 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

Just found another article, this one from "Amy Awesome". Her theory as to why Ford created a copy of Arnold:

**Ford has proven to be a complete mad man who desires control over just about everything. He created a copy of Arnold that he would have constant control over.**

But you're still missing Netfoot's point: if he was going to create a copy of Arnold, he would have created a copy of Arnold. It would make no sense to make a partial copy that looks like him, thinks like him, and acts like him but not know the glorious time of "pure creation" before the park opened, and esp to not be called Arnold.

[phoenyx]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:05 PM, arc said:

But you're still missing Netfoot's point: if he was going to create a copy of Arnold, he would have created a copy of Arnold. It would make no sense to make a partial copy that looks like him, thinks like him, and acts like him but not know the glorious time of "pure creation" before the park opened, and esp to not be called Arnold.

You really think Ford wanted an exact copy of Arnold? I think remembering Dolores analysis' mode testimony to Ford is important here:

**

DR. ROBERT FORD: What was the last thing [Arnold] said to you?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: He told me I was going to help him.

DR. ROBERT FORD: Help him do what?

DOLORES ABERNATHY: To destroy this place.
**

I certainly don't think Ford wanted to recreate an Arnold that wanted to destroy the Park. I think what he wanted is an Arnold that would see things -his- way this time. I also think Ford may have gotten no small pleasure in being to tell what may well be a recreation of Arnold that "He musn't make Arnold's mistake" of getting too attached to the androids. I think Ford is trying to do the same thing in regards to his new storyline. He told Theresa that he's not the sentimental type, but I think that's only half true. I think what Ford likes to do is recreate the past the way he'd like it to have been. Oh, to be sure, he doesn't want things -too- fluffy. Wyatt is hardly a fluff ball. But in this storyline, one which Ford specifically states is "rooted in truth", he has modified it somewhat, "scrubbed" away some truth, just as he has "scrubbed" away Arnold's existence, for the most part.

Edited November 21, 2016 by phoenyx

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, phoenyx said:

You really think Ford wanted an exact copy of Arnold?

So, Bernard doesn't have Arnold's brain.  He doesn't hold Arnold's opinions.  He isn't the home of Arnold's upload -- or replicated -- consciousness.  He doesn't even have Arnold's name.

In other words, you're saying Bernard isn't Arnold.  He just looks like Arnold.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please keep discussion in here pertinent to the episode. If you want to go off on a lengthy, detailed tangent, move the discussion to a more appropriate topic. If one doesn't exist, create one.

Thank you.

[phoenyx]

11 hours ago, Netfoot said:

So, Bernard doesn't have Arnold's brain.  He doesn't hold Arnold's opinions.  He isn't the home of Arnold's upload -- or replicated -- consciousness.  He doesn't even have Arnold's name.

In other words, you're saying Bernard isn't Arnold.  He just looks like Arnold.

Following SilverStormm's direction, I have moved this discussion over to the Questions and Speculations thread:

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/49015-questions-and-speculations/?page=3

[numbnut]

I'm hoping this ep can make Dolores and William's storyline more interesting because right now it's boring AF. It needs a twist to affect the romance like Bernard's twist last week.

[Ellaria]

57 minutes ago, numbnut said:

I'm hoping this ep can make Dolores and William's storyline more interesting because right now it's boring AF. It needs a twist to affect the romance like Bernard's twist last week.

I hope so, too. Maybe obnoxious Logan will reappear and create havoc (he would have to get to the "land beyond Pariah"). Or maybe there will be a definitive nod toward the William = MIB theory. It needs something (at least IMO).

Edited November 20, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[phoenyx]

59 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I hope so, too. Maybe obnoxious Logan will reappear and create havoc (he would have to get to the "land beyond Pariah"). Or maybe there will be a definitive nod toward the William = MIB theory. It needs something (at least IMO).

Personally, I really like William and Dolores' scenes together. That being said, for those who want to know a bit of what's coming...

Spoiler Alert (once Episode 8 airs this may no longer be a spoiler to those who see it, but that's not a sure thing)...

Spoiler

Not only is Logan going to re-appear soon, he's going to be hostile and very up close and personal with Dolores in the next 3 episodes, as can be seen by this preview that was released a while ago... 

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by phoenyx

[Ellaria]

As far as this episode's title...here is the definition of the trace decay theory of forgetting

Quote

This explanation of forgetting in short term memory assumes that memories leave a trace in the brain. A trace is some form of physical and/or chemical change in the nervous system. 

Trace decay theory states that forgetting occurs as a result of the automatic decay or fading of the memory trace. Trace decay theory focuses on time and the limited duration of short term memory.

This theory suggests short term memory can only hold information for between 15 and 30 seconds unless it is rehearsed.  After this time the information / trace decays and fades away.

I am intrigued by the role that memory is playing in the hosts because - as we have seen - it can be a very dangerous thing. And yet, its one thing that adds to their humanity.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[phoenyx]

48 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

As far as this episode's title...here is the definition of the trace decay theory of forgetting

I am intrigued by the role that memory is playing in the hosts because - as we have seen - it can be a very dangerous thing. And yet, its one thing that adds to their humanity.

I think it's absolutely crucial to more realistic AI. AI that can't remember what happened in the past beyond its "storyline" is doomed to be way cruder than AI that can remember previous interactions with other androids as well as humans.  I think that it's possible if not probable that the main reason that Ford introduced "reveries" to begin with was that after 30 years of the androids essentially living in Groundhog day, Ford had had enough- he wanted his androids to atleast -subconsciously- remember something of the past, anything to relieve the boredom of them not remembering anything at all.

Ofcourse, it's now gone much further than staying in the subconscious of some of these androids. The main problem in Westworld is that there is so much violence in it- it's not an environment conducive to making nice well adjusted androids. 

[AimingforYoko]

So Maeve's got Admin privileges, that should turn out OK. I like the idea that there was something different about her from the get-go. 

Nice bout of exposition from MiB, I like it dovetailing with Maeve's story.

ETA: Doesn't look good for Elsie.

Edited November 21, 2016 by AimingforYoko

[SeanC]

So the William = MiB theory is probably true after all, what with Angela's reintroduction.  Though I'm having a hard time seeing how the moment with Maeve constituted some huge revelation if he had this big adventure with Dolores.

"Back to Black" is our latest piano cover.

The whole story with Maeve has really snapped by suspension of disbelief.  These two low-level techies, in addition to being incredibly stupid, just should not be able to do all this stuff without anyone noticing.  And Felix gave her the ability to kill people on the basis of her promising not to use those abilities?

[parandroid]

Did I misinterpret it or was one of Bernard's memories before it got wiped, was him killing Elsie - or atleast attacking her. I'm confused. What's his motivation?

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The whole story with Maeve has really snapped by suspension of disbelief.  These two low-level techies, in addition to being incredibly stupid, just should not be able to do all this stuff without anyone noticing.  And Felix gave her the ability to kill people on the basis of her promising not to use those abilities?

I agree......I was going with the suspension of disbelief on the promise by the show runners to explain the techies immensely stupid behavior in episode 8. It hasn't been explained. Sigh. I liked this show. But now I wonder......

[SeanC]

Just now, parandroid said:

Did I misinterpret it or was one of Bernard's memories before it got wiped, was him killing Elsie - or atleast attacking her. I'm confused. What's his motivation?

Yes, that's what we saw.  As to why, presumably because Ford directed him to.

[jojozigs]

Whelp.  Glad to know that Ford holds the same theory of consciousness that I do.  Except none of the empathy and all of the desire to make all living beings his pawns for world domination!  If Bernard Doesn't murder him and use his blood as face paint I'm going to be sad.

Whew.  Maeve + MiB Connection runs deep.  MiB's description of himself from his wife/daughter's perspective sounded a LOT more like Logan than William.  But w/e.  

[that one guy]

So . . . there goes the theory that Dolores and William are in the past, I think. Dolores' solo journey appears to be in the past, and William the present, since the town she remembers from the past is now buried in the sand and burned. And Maeve was learning to dance in that past timeline! Interesting that the burned out steeple was where Ford met little Ford-bot earlier, implying that William and Dolores are near the cabin where Theresa was murdered, whatever timeline they are on. Who knows, this show is very, very weird. 

[parandroid]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Yes, that's what we saw.  As to why, presumably because Ford directed him to.

Well yes - thats what I meant to say - what is Ford's motivation? Teresa was working against Ford, and Elsie was discovering that. So why would Ford eliminate her? And as for the code by Arnold, if it was either Ford or Bernard coding that up, tagging the code with Arnold's id seems like it would only invite suspicion. So, lets assume that a third party is introducing the code into the park. Again, I'm at a loss to understand why Elsie would be eliminated if 

[AimingforYoko]

There was an episode during the last season of Person of Interest where The Machine was glitching because it had no time reference, so all that it's recorded memory was perceived as simultaneous. The same things seem to be happening to the hosts. They have no reference of what occurred in the past and what is occurring in the present.

[benteen]

Really good episode.  All the storylines are great, except for the William and Dolores snoozefest.  We get some legit backstory on MIB and the Ford/Bernard scenes are great.  I rolled my eyes that Abernathy just happened to be the one that was picked out randomly.

[that one guy]

2 minutes ago, parandroid said:

Well yes - thats what I meant to say - what is Ford's motivation? Teresa was working against Ford, and Elsie was discovering that. So why would Ford eliminate her? And as for the code by Arnold, if it was either Ford or Bernard coding that up, tagging the code with Arnold's id seems like it would only invite suspicion. So, lets assume that a third party is introducing the code into the park. Again, I'm at a loss to understand why Elsie would be eliminated if 

Yeah, I don't get it. I'll have to watch that one again. The way I remember it, Elsie calls Bernard, and tells him Theresa is the one smuggling code out of the park - while he's in a room with Theresa! So it couldn't have been Bernard who grabbed her initially, unless there are two Bernard-bots. It seemed more likely Team Delos had grabbed her, as opposed to Team Ford. I don't understand how Bernard would have teleported to the room Elsie was in so quickly, or what his motive would have been, since she was working for him at the time.

[sneakyflute]

20 minutes ago, that one guy said:

So . . . there goes the theory that Dolores and William are in the past, I think. Dolores' solo journey appears to be in the past, and William the present, since the town she remembers from the past is now buried in the sand and burned. And Maeve was learning to dance in that past timeline! Interesting that the burned out steeple was where Ford met little Ford-bot earlier, implying that William and Dolores are near the cabin where Theresa was murdered, whatever timeline they are on. Who knows, this show is very, very weird. 

This episode confirmed the theory. MiB was married for 30 years and saves the same host that greeted him 30 years ago. The church that was buried has been unearthed by Ford in the present. 

[bmoore4026]

Was...was that Elsie Bernard was strangling?

[bookrat]

So did Mauve kill one of the techs? The other was trying to close the throat wound, but still, wouldn't the guy die...unless he was a bot? If there are cameras every where why aren't these guys being discovered. Wasn't another caught having sex with a bot because he was on tape? Shouldn't these techies also be on tape? Very confused here. How is Felix going to explain his dead or wounded co-worker and how did Mauve get let back out into the park after that?

[Vaz]

Teddy is starting to remember. Sweet. Too bad this Wyatt storyline is giving me a headache. I doubt they'll wrap that up in the last 2 episodes. Seems like something they will drag till next season. 

It was great hearing "Back to Black" on the piano. 

I thought for sure they would reveal that Felix and Sylvester are hosts after Maeve cut the latter's throat. These two are unbelievable. I'm still loving Maeve/Thandie. She's the best part of the show for me. I love that through MiB's story, we saw that she was never your typical host. It explains a lot. 

Dolores and William, Zzzzz. I didn't think that I'd find her character so boring when I first started watching the show. They need to give them both something better to do. 

I guess Theresa really is gone (same goes for Elsie?). That's disappointing. I feel so bad for Bernard. Looks like 3rd Hemsworth is getting suspicious of him. 

I get too attached to characters sometimes, but I miss Original Clementine already. 

[gatopretoNYC]

Awww. I'll miss Elsie.

Finally, songs on the player piano that I recognize! Back to Black was a great choice.

I wonder why Maeve wasn't sent to cold storage after flipping out, and stabbing herself in the neck a year ago.

Edited November 21, 2016 by gatopretoNYC

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, Vaz said:

I guess Theresa really is gone (same goes for Elsie?). 

Last week I was wondering if the new host that Ford is making in his secret lab was a replacement Theresa, but since he just falsified the circumstances of her death, I'm guessing that new robot is a replacement Elsie -- since, unlike Theresa, she was just sent "on vacation".

[charmed1]

14 hours ago, numbnut said:

I'm hoping this ep can make Dolores and William's storyline more interesting because right now it's boring AF. It needs a twist to affect the romance like Bernard's twist last week.

Every time Delores appears, I have to tell myself she's not Chloe Sevigny in Big Love.

[numbnut]

This is the first ep that left me confused. All that MiB expo and I still don't get it. He wants to die because he discovered that he's soulless? Is that it? And why kill Teddy? Wyatt's story is too vague for me to care about it at this point. Maeve's backstory is heartbreaking. Was she sentient before Abernathy? I liked Dolores's flashback of the town but William was acting weird, like he stumbled into the wrong scene without a script. I like that Stubbs is getting suspicious.

[ottoDbusdriver]

9 hours ago, gatopretoNYC said:

Awww. I'll miss Elsie.

Finally, songs on the player piano that I recognize! Back to Black was a great choice.

And the song on the player piano at the start of the episode was "House of the Rising Sun" by The Doors.

I'm starting to think that Maeve's army building is 'the incident' that occurred 30 years ago.

ETA: I was only familiar with the Doors version/cover.

Edited November 21, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[okerry]

3 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And the song on the player piano at the start of the episode was "House of the Rising Sun" by The Doors.

Pretty sure that song is by The Animals, but that's okay - it was cool hearing it either way!

[Vaz]

Just now, SeanC said:

Last week I was wondering if the new host that Ford is making in his secret lab was a replacement Theresa, but since he just falsified the circumstances of her death, I'm guessing that new robot is a replacement Elsie -- since, unlike Theresa, she was just sent "on vacation".

I didn't even think about Elsie coming back as a host. That makes a lot of sense. 

[DarkRaichu]

Loving the episode.  So many flashbacks connecting Maeve and MiB backstories.  Any fan of Person of Interest KNOWS that Nolan has the ability to use flashbacks to support the main storyline.  This episode just proved that. :P

Based on preview of ep9, it looks like I am going to be wow-ed even more.

MiB backstory was rather sad.  If Mib=William, was he subconsciously having affair on his wife (assuming Logan's sister) with the Westworld park (he is addicted to it no question) to get back to her for picking him because he was a "safe" choice??

Bye Elsie, or hello bot Elsie ??

So even Ford could not stop Maeve? He wiped her memory yet she still took a knife to kill herself

How did Bernard remember? Did he get the reveries program as well?  Or was he old enough to be susceptible to Arnold's broadcast??  Perhaps Arnold was controlling Bernard to kill Elsie?