S01.E03: Windsor

[dubbel zout]

On 3/8/2017 at 1:50 PM, Hanahope said:

So if QV did this only 100 years previously, why couldn't QEII do so?

From the official royal website:

Quote

The Royal Family name of Windsor was confirmed by The Queen after her accession in 1952. However, in 1960, The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh decided that they would like their own direct descendants to be distinguished from the rest of the Royal Family (without changing the name of the Royal House), as Windsor is the surname used by all the male and unmarried female descendants of George V.

It was therefore declared in the Privy Council that The Queen's descendants, other than those with the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince/Princess, or female descendants who marry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor.

This reflected Prince Philip's surname. In 1947, when Prince Philip of Greece became naturalised, he assumed the name of Philip Mountbatten as a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy.

The effect of the declaration was that all The Queen's children, on occasions when they needed a surname, would have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

Edited March 9, 2017 by dubbel zout
fixed inaccurate quote text

[Roseanna]

On 11/6/2016 at 11:13 AM, dubbel zout said:

Depends on where he got the job. No one in England would have dared, and I think enough pressure could have been put on people elsewhere that it was very unlikely. And let's face it, he would have been very difficult to work with, wanting all the perks of royal status. That's one reason he was so disliked: He gave up the throne yet expected to stay involved and live as he was accustomed. He wanted it both ways as far as that goes. Plus his obsession with getting Wallis the HRH. He truly couldn't understand why that would never, ever happen.

Ziegler says in his biography that he could have found a job if he wanted: "In retrospect one can see that there would have been many jobs of social or charitable nature which would have been suitable to his talents and to which he could have devoted as much or as little effort as he wished. At the time there seemed convincing arguments against any particular activity, and so he lingered on, filling the time agreeably enough and waiting for something to turn up."

The chapter is named "Some Sort of Officially Status" which is what we wanted as well as the HRH for his wife. 

On 2/12/2017 at 3:40 PM, ajsnaves said:

Except that is exactly what happened with their Great Great Grandmother, Queen Victoria.   She married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, she took his name, and the royal house changed from Hanover to Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.  That was then changed to Windsor during WWI to separate the family from its German name.  The problem is there are so few precedents for this situation.  But it was well within reason for him to expect his name to at least attach to his children.  He still could have handled it better though.

There were some differences, though. Prince Albert was a Prince when he married Queen Victoria. Philip wasn't as he gave up his title as Prince of Greece and Denmark by becoming a British citizen and was created a duke by his father-in-law.

Stiill, probably the most important reason was the strong xebofobic, adnd especially anti-German, attitudes after the war. If Philip and before all, Lord Mountbatten would have waited some years. maybe the result would have been different.

On the other hand, nowadays the result would have been the same as in 1952.  

BTV, the royal house of Netherlands seems still to be House of Orange-Nassau although they had three reigning queens: Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix before the present king.

[Pallas]

41 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Ziegler says in his biography that he could have found a job if he wanted: "In retrospect one can see that there would have been many jobs of social or charitable nature which would have been suitable to his talents and to which he could have devoted as much or as little effort as he wished. At the time there seemed convincing arguments against any particular activity, and so he lingered on, filling the time agreeably enough and waiting for something to turn up."

I interpret Ziegler as saying, not that Windsor could have found a job if he'd wanted to, but that the English establishment might have seen its way clear to approve a job's being created for him (at home or abroad) in the social or charitable realm. "At the time there seemed convincing argument against any activity" -- I think those arguments were made behind the scenes by the Crown, not the Duke.  Please understand I don't defend his character, his attitude, his actions or overall, what he made of his life before or after his abdication. 

[thuganomics85]

Ah, David!  I was wondering if he would show up.  Really enjoyed Alex Jennings' take on him.  Again, I'm most familiar with The King's Speech when it comes to George, David, etc., so I found it interesting how Guy Pearce's version from the film seemed more fratty and openly jerkish, but this version was more slimy, but subtle in some ways.  And while I want to feel for him over basically getting kicked out due to loving someone he wasn't suppose to, it is hard to feel too bad about his "allowance" getting cut from him, because it sounded like he and his wife lived a overly-lavish lifestyle with the parties, dinners, and traveling, so maybe, just maybe, he should have thought about actually saving his money.  Just a thought!

Philip's reaction to finding out Elizabeth was keeping her last name was probably Matt Smith's best work so far, although I'm still a bit shaky with the character/person.  On one hand, I can understand why he feels like her becoming the queen is making him lose everything that defines him (or at least he thinks defines him), but at the same time, he had to be prepared for some of this, right?  Granted, it happened sooner then expected, but he should have known that it was probably only a matter of time before they had to move to Buckingham Palace and whatnot.  Maybe those flying lessons will do him some good.

Glad to see Elizabeth gets some big scenes with David and Churchill.  Really enjoying Claire Foy in this role.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 2/12/2017 at 4:40 PM, ajsnaves said:

Except that is exactly what happened with their Great Great Grandmother, Queen Victoria.   She married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, she took his name, and the royal house changed from Hanover to Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.  That was then changed to Windsor during WWI to separate the family from its German name.  The problem is there are so few precedents for this situation.  But it was well within reason for him to expect his name to at least attach to his children.  He still could have handled it better though.

Due to Salic Law, Victoria couldn't be head of the House of Hanover as her male predecessors had been; her uncle Cumberland became King of Hanover (and was her heir until she had a child). So it makes sense that Hanover would no longer be the royal house's surname and that Albert's was chosen. Elizabeth's status as head of the family was no different than her male predecessors since Victoria, so there was no need to change the name.

Edited September 10, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I watched the first two episodes back in January and then quit because all the regular tv shows started again. It's been on my list to finish watching S1 so now here I am trying to get it done before S2 begins! Despite the 10+ month break, it was so easy to start watching again. The sets, costumes, and cinematography are so beautiful. I recognize everyone but because it's been a while, I've forgotten some of their names. It made me jokingly wish that this show were like reality tv where we get chyrons with everyone's names to remind me exactly why they are!

It's hard for me to sympathize with Philip's complaints. He married Elizabeth knowing she would become queen eventually so not wanting to live at Buckingham Palace? Tough titties. I mean, I get it. I'd rather live in a smaller/cozier place (especially one that had just been redecorated to their specifications) but that's part of being married to the queen. As for the last name issue, boo hoo. I loved when he tried to tell her it was the law and she pointed out that it is merely the custom but not actually the law.

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 2:11 AM, Calamity Jane said:

I always wonder why these dramas don't mention that part of the issue with the Duke of Windsor was that he was a flat-out traitor during WWII.  

It think that the reason is clear. This show is called The Crown, and that's why it concentrates on only those aspects that are relevant to the theme.

Spoiler

After S1, the theme of the show seems to be the relation between the sovereign and her prime ministers as well as the private prize Elizabeth has to pay, and that she makes her family pay, in order to fulfill her public duty.  

Actually, the duke of Windsor seems to be a more important in the show than he as a person irl was in Elizabeth's life, and that's because of Abdiction's consequences to Elizabeth, her parents and even Tommy Lascelles. Instead, other near realations, f.ex. dukes of Kent and Gloucester, aren't seen at all even in the funeral of George VI, because they have no meaning to the theme and there simply can't be too much characters.      

On ‎6‎.‎12‎.‎2016 at 6:41 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

The relationship between the Duke and Duchess of Windsor is a mystery for the ages--there is something unknowable at its heart. Was it love? Sexual obsession? A misplaced Oedipus complex? I do think Wallis would've stayed with him even had he lost his status--she left her first husband because he beat her, and left her second for David. But his obsession with getting her the HRH was completely tone-deaf.

Yes, and it remains a mystery also in this show. 

Spoiler

Wallis seems to have been very bossy and even humilated her husband in public but we don't see this trait in the show. Also otherwise, her character is flat, unlike that of the duke who is really fascinating. He is like an eel: what he says and acts in the company in his family seems often be opposite to his letters to Wallis.  

Instead, the show concentrates on the relationship between Elizabeth and Uncle David. On the othert hand it's because of him that she is the Queen (at least so early in life), on the hand he is the only person in the world who knows what it means. His father never told her, Queen Mary and Queen Mother were only consorts, not monarchs, and although there are other kings and queens, they have no such commonwealth around the world.

[Calamity Jane]

On 11/7/2016 at 4:11 PM, Calamity Jane said:

I always wonder why these dramas don't mention that part of the issue with the Duke of Windsor was that he was a flat-out traitor during WWII.  He made a deal with the Nazis that they would bring him back as king if/when they conquered Britain.  I believe he was in Portugal at the time, and when somehow it was found out, he was shipped off to the Bahamas for the remainder of the war years, and the matter was kept completely hush-hush.  There was a really engrossing documentary about it made after the Wall came down and a lot of papers came to light in the former East Germany. So far as I know, the story has not been disproven.   

The Duke and Duchess lived in Paris when my family lived there in the 50s-60s, quite near where I went to school in Neuilly.  They dined frequently at Chez Maxim, and my parents occasionally saw them there when they were showing out-of-town bigwigs around.  My mother always had a certain affection for the Duchess because the rule at Maxim in those days was that women  must wear black one certain night a week.  Some dignitaries were in town and the plan was to go to La Tour d'Argent, so my mom wore a gorgeous emerald-green dress, but they ended up at Maxim for reasons I've forgotten.  You could be admitted wearing color, but it was considered massively gauche.  To my mom's relief, there in the dining room sat the Duchess, also in a bright colored dress, so the spotlight was not trained solely on Mom.  

One other thing from those days - the French gossip papers had the Queen pregnant just about every month.  She'd have easily had ten kids if they'd been right a tenth of the time.  The excitement when she had Andrew and then - gasp! - Edward was HUGE.  

I'm enjoying the series, but it does not quite match some of the things we always heard over the years, such as that Elizabeth remained very fond of her Uncle David even after everything.  Doesn't seem that way from this account.  Also I always believed that they were all extremely fond of uncle Mountbatten and

  Reveal hidden contents

were devastated when the IRA blew him up

- again, doesn't seem so in this story.  

Just watched a new (to me anyway) documentary about Edward on Netflix - the title says it all, Edward VIII, Nazi King.  It was worse even than I realized.  He was so indiscreet he gave away information helped Hitler finalize plans on how to invade France.  How he escaped execution as a traitor just baffles me!  I think it had to be due solely to his position. Thoroughly disgusting.

[CelticBlackCat]

^ Thanks Calamity Jane, I'll have to watch this 2009 documentary.

[roamyn]

On 12/6/2017 at 11:09 PM, Calamity Jane said:

Just watched a new (to me anyway) documentary about Edward on Netflix - the title says it all, Edward VIII, Nazi King.  It was worse even than I realized.  He was so indiscreet he gave away information helped Hitler finalize plans on how to invade France.  How he escaped execution as a traitor just baffles me!  I think it had to be due solely to his position. Thoroughly disgusting.

I've been debating watching it, thanks for the critique.  I might check it out now.

[Guest]

Another wonderful episode. One part I didn’t like was a Elizabeth forcing the apology. If it is such s hardship for her to be the monarch, why should he have to do it either? It’s a birth-based system, not something he chose either.

The scene toasting the House of Montbatten was awkward.

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎9‎.‎2017 at 5:07 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Due to Salic Law, Victoria couldn't be head of the House of Hanover as her male predecessors had been; her uncle Cumberland became King of Hanover (and was her heir until she had a child). So it makes sense that Hanover would no longer be the royal house's surname and that Albert's was chosen. Elizabeth's status as head of the family was no different than her male predecessors since Victoria, so there was no need to change the name.

It was a purely question of politics: just as in 1917 when the name of Windsor was chosen, any hints of foreign origin was considered to be dangerous to the royal family.

Robert Lacey says in his book The Crown that the Lord Chancellor, lord Jowitt, agreed with Philip after reseaching the original decision in 1917: it concerned only male descendants.  (My addition: George VI who had made sure that Elizabeth's children could become Princes and Princesses, had made no decisions about Elizabeth's surname when she married, nor that of her children.)

In history there are two practices. F.ex. Romanovs: the father of Peter III (the husband of Catherine the Great who was murdered during the coup that brought her to power) was a German duke of Holstein-Gottorp and his mother was a daughter of Peter the Great. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Roseanna
changed the first sentence.

[jrzy]

On 11/7/2016 at 3:19 PM, VCRTracking said:

The actor playing Peter Townsend is practically a clone of the real one(pictured below):

I thought it was an amazing resemblancelence as well! 

[jrzy]

I am finally getting around to watching The Crown and am finding it so well acted and fairly accurate historically speaking.  Obviously the family dynamics and conversations are all conjecture on our part but its a great portrayal.  One thing that really bothers me is the shooting scenes.  I just can't watch mass murder of animals and shrug if off.  It makes me hate every single character.  I was so afraid that they would show the Elephant that appeared in Episode two being slaughtered that I almost turned it off.   I get that this was part of the aristocracies privilege,  but it doesn't make it right nor easier to view.

[PeterPirate]

On 5/29/2020 at 8:27 AM, jrzy said:

I am finally getting around to watching The Crown and am finding it so well acted and fairly accurate historically speaking.  Obviously the family dynamics and conversations are all conjecture on our part but its a great portrayal.  One thing that really bothers me is the shooting scenes.  I just can't watch mass murder of animals and shrug if off.  It makes me hate every single character.  I was so afraid that they would show the Elephant that appeared in Episode two being slaughtered that I almost turned it off.   I get that this was part of the aristocracies privilege,  but it doesn't make it right nor easier to view.

And the show completely ignores the royal support for fox hunting.

[RedDelicious]

On 11/6/2016 at 4:54 AM, Bec said:

So, I don't know anything about how this royalty stuff works, but if Duke of Windsor wanted to get a job, could anybody really have stopped him? I'm sorry, but he just sounds to me like a whiner with a bunch of BS excuses for why he is a lazy ass who still somehow deserves to live like a king (but without any of the responsibilities, of course). 

It's not like he's some down-on-his-luck unfortunate person. He has resources and connections most people don't. And he's telling people "everyday is a struggle"? Dude really needs to be introduced to what actual hardship looks like. 

He's doing all this whining while other people are burying someone they loved! He didn't come across as all that broken up about his brother at all, he's just worried about getting more money for himself.

And he's mad that his "peaches" wasn't invited? It's a funeral, not a jolly fun time!

He's one of those characters that makes me want to reach into the screen and smack them in the face.

The way he kept going on about love strikes me as "protesting too much". If this really is a great love, they could live in a cardboard box and still feel like the luckiest people alive. I bet she wouldn't stick with him if he was a nobody with nothing. He knows that. That's why he "needs" that allowance so badly.

Foreshadowing.

On 11/4/2016 at 9:22 PM, millk said:

I am a Monarchist and Royal Watcher and royal collector focusing on 1952-1953 ephemera. I attach one of my prized possessions.

I have some pieces too - an official souvenir program from the coronation and a souvenir tankard. I'll see if I can share a photo.