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S01.E03: Windsor


Tara Ariano
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On 11/7/2016 at 4:11 PM, Calamity Jane said:

I always wonder why these dramas don't mention that part of the issue with the Duke of Windsor was that he was a flat-out traitor during WWII.  He made a deal with the Nazis that they would bring him back as king if/when they conquered Britain.  I believe he was in Portugal at the time, and when somehow it was found out, he was shipped off to the Bahamas for the remainder of the war years, and the matter was kept completely hush-hush.  There was a really engrossing documentary about it made after the Wall came down and a lot of papers came to light in the former East Germany. So far as I know, the story has not been disproven.   

The Duke and Duchess lived in Paris when my family lived there in the 50s-60s, quite near where I went to school in Neuilly.  They dined frequently at Chez Maxim, and my parents occasionally saw them there when they were showing out-of-town bigwigs around.  My mother always had a certain affection for the Duchess because the rule at Maxim in those days was that women  must wear black one certain night a week.  Some dignitaries were in town and the plan was to go to La Tour d'Argent, so my mom wore a gorgeous emerald-green dress, but they ended up at Maxim for reasons I've forgotten.  You could be admitted wearing color, but it was considered massively gauche.  To my mom's relief, there in the dining room sat the Duchess, also in a bright colored dress, so the spotlight was not trained solely on Mom.  

One other thing from those days - the French gossip papers had the Queen pregnant just about every month.  She'd have easily had ten kids if they'd been right a tenth of the time.  The excitement when she had Andrew and then - gasp! - Edward was HUGE.  

I'm enjoying the series, but it does not quite match some of the things we always heard over the years, such as that Elizabeth remained very fond of her Uncle David even after everything.  Doesn't seem that way from this account.  Also I always believed that they were all extremely fond of uncle Mountbatten and were devastated when the IRA blew him up - again, doesn't seem so in this story.  

Thank you for sharing your story.  That was very interesting.  I love little insider tidbits.

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6 hours ago, MrsR said:

Staying on topic. I found David to be an amusing character here and Alex Jennings rocked this role. I didn't realize he was this good an actor.

Yeah, he's one of those "love to hate" characters. I hate him so much but I want to see more of him. Hee.

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i had heard or read that both the duke and duchess of winsor were nazi sympathizers -- i think it was covered in the later version of Upstairs/downstairs. it was done well and was very disturbing. i had  a hard time watching the episodes involving them because that wasn't mentioned at all. they did a good job showing what a jackass he was and how, well, whipped. and at the same time showing the sadness and ambivalence and feeling left out despite the fact that it was his choice that lead to it all.

i'm a few episodes farther on from this one and what annoys me the most about this show and what constantly takes me out of the stories is that we never see the kids at all. it makes her seem so selfish. her and philip. we see her walking down the hallway, showing how lonely she is because philip's away and i was screaming at the tv, for god's sake, go play with your freaking children. and i'm not someone who does a lot of yelling at my television. they had so much to cover. obviously. i get that. but a few scenes here and there of them as parents??? wouldn't have taken that much time and effort. and Charles has had a big part in modern life.

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Considering this suspected coziness with the Nazis, I wonder if Winston Churchill really would be so... friendly with David in real life, even after the war, like they showed in this episode.

I thought it rang a little false that the show made Churchill say "no man should be punished for love". But I guess I can buy that Churchill would say that because he's trying to get David to do something for him.

I'm only up to this episode, so I don't know if the show addresses the Nazi thing later or not. It seems to be sort of a sore subject for the royals, so maybe that would be a reason for the show to avoid it. I don't think it reflects badly on QE, though. She's not her uncle. She has already more than proven that she's far better than him.

I loved their exchange about the pugs. Was the comment about how lazy pugs are a not-so-subtle dig at how lazy her dear uncle is? And then this:

David: Generally, we're better at queens than kings. I have a feeling you'll be no exception.

QE: I certainly intend to do it well.

David: I did, too.

QE: Obviously, not hard enough.

Ooh, buuuurn! And then she tells him he owes her AND also Philip an apology. He did a good job looking like he was actually sorry, but since he clearly showed he thinks Philip is such a nobody (that foundling!) in the earlier scene with Queen Mary, I bet he was boiling mad on the inside. The thought amuses me.

I'm not sure Philip deserves an apology from David since he knew what he was getting into by marrying Elizabeth. But I sure would still like to see David apologize to him. Could be hilariously awkward!

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On 11/6/2016 at 3:40 PM, stcroix said:

I've always read that Phillip was dirt poor, having to always sponge off people for the very clothes on his back.  Lord Montbatten hatched the scheme that he'd marry into the Windsor family, especially when the young Elizabeth fell in love with him and wrote letters to him when he was in the war.  I've read he wished he'd waited for 'the better looking one'--Margaret.  Montbatten wanted an in with the royal family and Phillip wanted an easy life.  (correct me if I'm wrong in any of this)  Therefore, I don't feel any sympathy for Phillip since he knew what he was getting into.  Although he may have thought he'd have a more glamorous life, more parties and such and felt restricted by Elizabeth being so tied to her role. He was an uncouth man from everything I've read. 

Lord Montbatten actually was part of the Royal Family, albeit tangentially.  His mother, Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven, was the daughter of Princess Alice, Grand Dutchess of Hess, who in turn was Queen Victoria's second daughter.  So Louis Mountbatten was Queen Victoria's great-grandchild, as was Philip's mother, Alice.

Edited by Brn2bwild
Edited because Philip's mother wouldn't be a great grandson
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4 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Lord Montbatten actually was part of the Royal Family, albeit tangentially.  His mother, Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven, was the daughter of Princess Alice, Grand Dutchess of Hess, who in turn was Queen Victoria's second daughter.  So Louis Mountbatten was Queen Victoria's great-grandson, as was Philip's mother, Alice.

I've read that, but had forgotten it, thank you :)  I guess I meant to say that he was trying to get more power (prestige? influence?) for himself by marrying someone closely connected to him (whether through friendship or family ties) into the royal family. 

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18 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It doesn't, probably because the show's time line starts when Elizabeth gets married. The war is over by then. 

Their affection for Nazis tainted their reputations for the rest of their lives. It seems odd to me that this series, which delves so deeply into the resentments felt by the royals over his shortcomings, doesn't mention it.

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About the House of Windsor and the Queen's family name thing, I've posted a comment over on the history talk topic, because it's a "future history" thing. Mountbatten's attempt to replace The House of Windsor with The House of Mountbatten was breathtaking in its ambition, smelled of treason if it wasn't actually treasonous, and for all I know it might have had him beheaded if he'd tried it a few centuries earlier. There was much more in play than just Philip's family name, and I'm with Churchill in his distaste for Mountbatten's ambitions.
 

Edited by Jeeves
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18 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Their affection for Nazis tainted their reputations for the rest of their lives. It seems odd to me that this series, which delves so deeply into the resentments felt by the royals over his shortcomings, doesn't mention it.

I know, right? Especially since Churchill had his little "they all married Nazis! Prominent Nazis!" outburst in the very first episode, right at the royal wedding.

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On 11/9/2016 at 1:12 AM, TheodoraK said:

i'm a few episodes farther on from this one and what annoys me the most about this show and what constantly takes me out of the stories is that we never see the kids at all. it makes her seem so selfish. her and philip. we see her walking down the hallway, showing how lonely she is because philip's away and i was screaming at the tv, for god's sake, go play with your freaking children. and i'm not someone who does a lot of yelling at my television. they had so much to cover. obviously. i get that. but a few scenes here and there of them as parents??? wouldn't have taken that much time and effort. and Charles has had a big part in modern life.

I was the same when Elizabeth received the news of her father's death. Her reaction of "how does this affect me?" was understandable given the circumstances, but I just wanted a throwaway line of her questioning whether the children knew, who told them, and how they were taking it. I've been giving both parents the side eye since. It's the normal use of kids, though, in dramas/soap operas, even well-done ones. Not seen nor heard until they have a life-threatening situation or one of the parents has, or almost has, an affair. (I'm looking at you Poldark!) I imagine we saw Charles in this episode because of the pain of Phillip losing the patrilineage. I guess the royals would not do hyphenated names?

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Elizabeth was a very young working mother at a time when few women were, especially of her social class. Then she becomes queen and has an entirely new set of responsibilities that are time-consuming, endless, and permanent. Because the abdication was still raw even when she become queen, as well as her own sense of duty, she put being sovereign above everything. Something was going to suffer, and she wasn't going to let it be her public duties. I'm sure she would have liked to have been able to spend more time with her children, but that wasn't in the cards. I think she did the best she could under the circumstances. (It's also thought she gave Philip a basically free hand at how the kids were raised so that he wasn't second to her in every facet of their lives.)

She's obviously learned from her experiences, what with allowing William and Kate to have a private family life before his responsibilities become more encompassing.

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Regarding the lack of time that Elizabeth seems to spend with her children -- remember how in "Downton Abbey" the children were brought into the library once a day for "quality time" with their parents?  It seems that in early 20th century Britain it was completely normal (at least among the aristocracy) to delegate most of the child-rearing activities to the nanny and later to governesses and tutors.  In fact there is a story that George VI 's stutter may be due, in part, to the cruelty he suffered at the hands of a vicious governess.  I have no idea why I know that.  Possibly it was alluded to in the movie "The King's Speech.

Edited by WatchrTina
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2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Regarding the lack of time that Elizabeth seems to spend with her children -- remember how in "Downton Abbey" the children were brought into the library once a day for "quality time" with their parents?  It seems that in early 20th century Britain it was completely normal (at least among the aristocracy) to delegate most of the child-rearing actives to the nanny and later to governesses and tutors.  In fact there is a story that George VI 's stutter may be due, in part, to the cruelty he suffered at the hands of a vicious governess.  I have no idea why I know that.  Possibly it was alluded to in the movie "The King's Speech.

 

That was a nanny, not a governess.  Supposedly she loved David and didn't care much for Bertie so she pretty much starved him to the point where it impacted his digestion for the rest of his life.  Also, she used to pinch David hard so he would cry and his parents would tell her to take them back to the nursery.  

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On Saturday, November 05, 2016 at 5:16 AM, VCRTracking said:

Didn't know before the episode about Phillip's sister Cecilie who died in a plane crash while she was 8 months pregnant.. Her husband and two small children were also aboard and killed. Sad.

And their last surviving child - a daughter, who didn't travel to her Uncle's wedding, was adopted by said Uncle, but died of meningitis 18 mos later.  That Uncle never had any children, and his line of Hesse died out with him (eg Princess Alice & Grand Duke Louis).  ETA someone beat me to it up thread.   (Two other sons also died in the crash, in addition to the baby and Grand Duke Georg Donatus' mother.)

PP's r)life runs very parellel to Prince Albert's (minus the sisters all marrying card carrying Nazi's).  Both had tragic childhoods.  Princess Andrew suffered a nervous breakdown, Prince Andrew almost lost his life via execution in Greece, they were dirt poor, and Lord Mountbatten pushed for the marriage.  With PA, his mother was taken away when he was five and he never saw her again, his family - while not dirt poor, were definitely not wealthy, and King Leopold pushed for their marriage.

But PA handled it infinitely better.  I think they all struggle at first (well, not sure Queen Anne's husband did), until they find their way or what their role is.

But it IS interesting that PP has never been given the title 'Consort'.

And even if they started with him not 100% in love, it's very apparent now that he loves & respects the Queen very much.  He's definitely mellowed with age.

Edited by roamyn
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Today (November 16) is the anniversary of the plane crash that killed Princess Cecilie and her husband and children.  November 16 is a very tragic date for the Hesses.  It was on this date in 1878 when Princess Marie died in the diptheria epidemic aged only 4.  Her mother died a month later of the same epidemic.  Also, Princess Elisabeth of Hesse, the only child of Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and his first wife Princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh died on November 16 in 1903 of meningitis.  She was 8 years old.  

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On 11/8/2016 at 0:11 AM, Calamity Jane said:

I always wonder why these dramas don't mention that part of the issue with the Duke of Windsor was that he was a flat-out traitor during WWII.  He made a deal with the Nazis that they would bring him back as king if/when they conquered Britain.  I believe he was in Portugal at the time, and when somehow it was found out, he was shipped off to the Bahamas for the remainder of the war years, and the matter was kept completely hush-hush.  There was a really engrossing documentary about it made after the Wall came down and a lot of papers came to light in the former East Germany. So far as I know, the story has not been disproven.   

The Duke and Duchess lived in Paris when my family lived there in the 50s-60s, quite near where I went to school in Neuilly.  They dined frequently at Chez Maxim, and my parents occasionally saw them there when they were showing out-of-town bigwigs around.  My mother always had a certain affection for the Duchess because the rule at Maxim in those days was that women  must wear black one certain night a week.  Some dignitaries were in town and the plan was to go to La Tour d'Argent, so my mom wore a gorgeous emerald-green dress, but they ended up at Maxim for reasons I've forgotten.  You could be admitted wearing color, but it was considered massively gauche.  To my mom's relief, there in the dining room sat the Duchess, also in a bright colored dress, so the spotlight was not trained solely on Mom.  

One other thing from those days - the French gossip papers had the Queen pregnant just about every month.  She'd have easily had ten kids if they'd been right a tenth of the time.  The excitement when she had Andrew and then - gasp! - Edward was HUGE.  

I'm enjoying the series, but it does not quite match some of the things we always heard over the years, such as that Elizabeth remained very fond of her Uncle David even after everything.  Doesn't seem that way from this account.  Also I always believed that they were all extremely fond of uncle Mountbatten and

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were devastated when the IRA blew him up

- again, doesn't seem so in this story.  

He held a commission on the General Staff and was in France at the time of the German invasion (it is alleged that he handed over the Allied defence plans for Belgium to them) ,at which point he deserted his post and him and Wallis fled to Biarritz then on to Portugal .When he did get sent to Nassau he was never trusted with anything sensitive again ,still managed to consort with people with connections to the Nazis and was kept under surveillance by both the Brits and the US for the duration.So while Bertie ended up the King ,Henry (who had to be physically dragged back to Britain after getting repeatedly bombed before Dunkirk) and George (who was in the RAF and died on a mission to Iceland) the younger two brothers and Elizabeth were doing there bit he was tapdancing with the enemy throughout

Anthony Blunt (who turned out to be one of the Cambridge Spies ) was sent to mop up and dispose of any loose papers on the subject at the end of the war  .Which was pretty much how Blunt escaped being outed as the 5th man until after his death as he knew where the bodies were buried .Blunt was even given a cushy job as Keeper of The Queens Paintings to keep him around without actually giving him anything important to do

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If I recall one of the documentaries correctly, Churchill went to the King and told him they had to get Edward and Wallis out of Europe and they basically forced E and W onto the battleship sent to pick them up, but not before she sent her maid back through the war-torn countryside to get their best linens because Wallis changed her mind about wanting them.  I have a hard time believing Churchill or QEII would be playing nice or taking his advice.

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...changing the family name to Windsor (and for that matter, Mountbatten's changing his name from Battenburg), were meant to be clear indicators that they were a BRITISH royal family, and downplaying their German ancestry, starting before WW I. 

If you remember that wonderful BBC show "The Lost Prince," (which was about David and Bertie's youngest brother, Prince John, who died young), Queen Mary (played by Miranda Richardson) is shown repeating over and over again "I am English. From top to toe, from toe to top. I am English, from top to toe, from toe to top. I am English, from top to toe, from toe to top."

So David's affinity for the Nazis was both a direct rebellion, as well as something that could have changed the course of the war had he remained on the throne.

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The Duke of Windsor is such an amusing slimeball this episode; his obsequious kowtowing to his relatives, coupled with his catty letter complaining at length about how frumpy, ugly and unpleasant they are, was perfection. Great acting from Alex Jennings, though.

Alex Jennings' Duke voice reminds me of Harry Enfield. All I can think when I hear his voice is this hilarious sketch.

Quote

The actor playing Peter Townsend is practically a clone of the real one(pictured below)

What a fox! No wonder Margaret was smitten.

I know Peter Townsend's actor, Ben Miles, as Patrick from Coupling, but I was under the impression he's been working pretty steadily.

Edited by Eyes High
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43 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I know Peter Townsend's actor, Ben Miles, as Patrick from Coupling, but I was under the impression he's been working pretty steadily.

I too knew him first from Coupling, but he has plenty of stage credits: He had the leading role in the stage version of Wolf Hall that played Broadway last year. And a few years before that, I was bowled over by his performance on Broadway in Alan Ayckbourn's The Norman Conquests (an all-day marathon of three full-length plays giving different views of what happened on a single weekend).

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I knew him from Coupling too, and since then I've seen him pop up on my screen every so often. I'm always like "Hey, I know you!" I even saw him in another miniseries that Claire Foy was in (The Promise)! I remember making a thread for it back at TWOP but no responses, sadly. 

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On 11/5/2016 at 3:36 AM, Ariah said:

When Philip said: "What kind of marriage is this, what kind of family? You've taken my career from me, you've taken my home, you've taken my name..." I thought - 'Well, it's been like this for a lot of women getting married'. Just a side though.

Never had much sympathy for Philip on that point. He knew exactly what he was getting into. Whiny alpha males irritate the crap out of me. 

On 11/6/2016 at 4:54 AM, Bec said:

So, I don't know anything about how this royalty stuff works, but if Duke of Windsor wanted to get a job, could anybody really have stopped him? I'm sorry, but he just sounds to me like a whiner with a bunch of BS excuses for why he is a lazy ass who still somehow deserves to live like a king (but without any of the responsibilities, of course). 

It's not like he's some down-on-his-luck unfortunate person. He has resources and connections most people don't. And he's telling people "everyday is a struggle"? Dude really needs to be introduced to what actual hardship looks like. 

He's doing all this whining while other people are burying someone they loved! He didn't come across as all that broken up about his brother at all, he's just worried about getting more money for himself.

And he's mad that his "peaches" wasn't invited? It's a funeral, not a jolly fun time!

He's one of those characters that makes me want to reach into the screen and smack them in the face.

The way he kept going on about love strikes me as "protesting too much". If this really is a great love, they could live in a cardboard box and still feel like the luckiest people alive. I bet she wouldn't stick with him if he was a nobody with nothing. He knows that. That's why he "needs" that allowance so badly.

The relationship between the Duke and Duchess of Windsor is a mystery for the ages--there is something unknowable at its heart. Was it love? Sexual obsession? A misplaced Oedipus complex? I do think Wallis would've stayed with him even had he lost his status--she left her first husband because he beat her, and left her second for David. But his obsession with getting her the HRH was completely tone-deaf.

On 11/7/2016 at 7:11 PM, Calamity Jane said:

I always wonder why these dramas don't mention that part of the issue with the Duke of Windsor was that he was a flat-out traitor during WWII.  He made a deal with the Nazis that they would bring him back as king if/when they conquered Britain.  I believe he was in Portugal at the time, and when somehow it was found out, he was shipped off to the Bahamas for the remainder of the war years, and the matter was kept completely hush-hush.  There was a really engrossing documentary about it made after the Wall came down and a lot of papers came to light in the former East Germany. So far as I know, the story has not been disproven.   

I'm enjoying the series, but it does not quite match some of the things we always heard over the years, such as that Elizabeth remained very fond of her Uncle David even after everything.  Doesn't seem that way from this account.  Also I always believed that they were all extremely fond of uncle Mountbatten and

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were devastated when the IRA blew him up

- again, doesn't seem so in this story.  

Yes, it is interesting they seem to be ignoring David and Wallis's history of collaboration. There were even pictures of them smiling and meeting with Hitler! Was he still that popular after the war, knowing that?

Margaret too still loved her uncle--she even named her son after him.

On 11/30/2016 at 0:43 PM, kwnyc said:

...changing the family name to Windsor (and for that matter, Mountbatten's changing his name from Battenburg), were meant to be clear indicators that they were a BRITISH royal family, and downplaying their German ancestry, starting before WW I. 

If you remember that wonderful BBC show "The Lost Prince," (which was about David and Bertie's youngest brother, Prince John, who died young), Queen Mary (played by Miranda Richardson) is shown repeating over and over again "I am English. From top to toe, from toe to top. I am English, from top to toe, from toe to top. I am English, from top to toe, from toe to top."

So David's affinity for the Nazis was both a direct rebellion, as well as something that could have changed the course of the war had he remained on the throne.

I LOVED The Lost Prince! I have always been fascinated by little Prince John and using him as a POV character for the tumultuous events of the early 20th century was brilliant. Loved Georgie in that one--the Duke of Kent is another royal favorite of mine, what a hunk! (A young Prince Andrew very much favored his great-uncle.) HIGHLY recommended.

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21 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Yes, it is interesting they seem to be ignoring David and Wallis's history of collaboration.

They're ignoring it because a) WWII is over when the show starts, and b) David isn't the crown anymore. The show is about Elizabeth. We see David because his abdication is what puts her on the throne. The Kents and Gloucesters have been ignored even more.

(I don't mean this in a snippy way; sorry if that's the tone it might give.)

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However she wouldn't have been Queen until much, much later in her life. She'd have had that married time with Phillip, Phillip would have much more time with his naval career and her children would have been much older. Even if George still died in 1952, David lived until the 70's.

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On 11/30/2016 at 3:03 PM, Eyes High said:

I know Peter Townsend's actor, Ben Miles, as Patrick from Coupling, but I was under the impression he's been working pretty steadily.

I was trying to figure out what I recognize him from and realize that he played Dartie in the most recent adaptation of The Forsyte Saga.

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On 11/5/2016 at 3:36 AM, Ariah said:

When Philip said: "What kind of marriage is this, what kind of family? You've taken my career from me, you've taken my home, you've taken my name..." I thought - 'Well, it's been like this for a lot of women getting married'. Just a side though.

Yes, I did laugh at that. What Philip views as a travesty and a tragedy was business as usual for millions of women at the time (and still is in many parts of the world). Welcome to marriage, Philip.

Was Philip really this much of a whiny bitch in real life, or is it exaggerated in the series to make Elizabeth look better? It's hard to have much sympathy for him. He knew full well Elizabeth would be queen one day when he married her. If he didn't want to subordinate his career and his life to his wife's, maybe he should have married, oh I don't know, anyone else?

Edited by Eyes High
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I don't find myself with much sympathy for him because we never see him actually try to do something and be thwarted.  It's not like he has tried to get involved in much and been told no.  As far as I can tell he goes out with friends to drink and sometimes sees his kids.

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His Uncle (Dickie Mountbatten) seems to have been the behind-the-scenes mover to get Philip in the picture, and get his nephew so close to the throne. Did Philip think he'd essentially be the King? He knew he wouldn't have the title (though I wonder if there were negotiations on what titles he'd acquire when he gave up his hereditary ones). Or, maybe because he was a dashing, titled naval officer, he never thought that he'd have to be anything but someone who did (and got) what he wanted. 

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Quote

They're ignoring it because a) WWII is over when the show starts, and b) David isn't the crown anymore. The show is about Elizabeth. We see David because his abdication is what puts her on the throne. The Kents and Gloucesters have been ignored even more.

That really doesn't explain it though, because they've made a deliberate decision to include Edward VIII as part of the story, and they are also employing flashbacks to establish parts of the story. Given the hostility his in-laws showed him in this episode, it seems like there should be some acknowledgment of his association with Hitler during the war. It might be more likely that the show doesn't want to mention it because it's still such a sticky situation and maybe not 100% provable? Something's going on there.

Quote

 I also thought, "Well, it's not as if you didn't know who you were marrying." Elizabeth was the heiress presumptive when they met.

Yes but I doubt very much that Philip thought his wife and children wouldn't take his name. There was no precedent for that. Prince Albert was prince consort to Queen Victoria, and their children took his family name. Philip had every reason to expect the same. I don't know how historically accurate this show is, but it's understandable he'd be upset if he wasn't aware of this until after she officially became queen.

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1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

.Yes but I doubt very much that Philip thought his wife and children wouldn't take his name. There was no precedent for that. Prince Albert was prince consort to Queen Victoria, and their children took his family name. Philip had every reason to expect the same. I don't know how historically accurate this show is, but it's understandable he'd be upset if he wasn't aware of this until after she officially became queen.

I think the story of Edward's Nazi ties is a pretty complex one and the producers of the show decided to forego it in favor of spending more time on Elizabeth's story.  There's been plenty of allusion to the fact that he wasn't particularly popular with the other royals and I think they decided not to go into detail on all the reasons behind it.

As for Philip, I do think he was taken by surprise by the timing, too.  King George lived only a few months after he was diagnosed; and, as we saw on the episode, the family was kept in the dark as to the nature of his illness and his impending death.  King George VI was only 55 when he died, his father, George V, made it to his 70's.  I think Philip thought he'd have a longer military career and Elizabeth would assume the throne in middle age or later.  I think if he'd had more time to pursue his own work life before being thrown into the 'family firm', he would've been less petulant.  And, as noted above, the last prince consort, Albert, was in a very different situation and was much more influential in the government along with his wife than Philip could ever be since times had changed.  He wasn't given much time to adjust to his new reality.  Of course, neither was Elizabeth, but different people respond in different ways.

Edited by doodlebug
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On 12/27/2016 at 4:35 PM, doodlebug said:

I think the story of Edward's Nazi ties is a pretty complex one and the producers of the show decided to forego it in favor of spending more time on Elizabeth's story.  There's been plenty of allusion to the fact that he wasn't particularly popular with the other royals and I think they decided not to go into detail on all the reasons behind it.

And that's too bad. Look at how much interest it generated in just the comments from this thread alone. I would love to know if the positive crowd reactions surrounding Edward in this episode were accurate. Perhaps the public didn't know some of what we know now. And then there is the whole point of view that Britain wasn't fully convinced Nazi = Bad before the war. Before the war, the ruling classes on both sides were thinking alliance, not war.

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I am binging this series and I am enjoying it very much. I am wondering whether I am finding this Philip more likable than the real man because he is played by Matt Smith.

I always have to laugh when people find the Duke of Windsor and Wallis Simpson romantic. He was a Nazi sympathizer at best and a traitor at worst, and she was a promiscuous gold digger and not even physically attractive.  I guess love falls where it may, even on a dung heap.

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 9:15 PM, magdalene said:

I always have to laugh when people find the Duke of Windsor and Wallis Simpson romantic. He was a Nazi sympathizer at best and a traitor at worst, and she was a promiscuous gold digger and not even physically attractive.  I guess love falls where it may, even on a dung heap.

Their story has been romanticized, but the reality appears to have been quite different.  A very odd pair, indeed. 

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 5:56 PM, dubbel zout said:

That's assuming he had no legitimate children.

Seems to be a pretty good assumption, given that Edward VII appears never to have sired any children despite many alleged sexual relations with many different women. 

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I'm re-watching the Series, and I found the DoW's apology to QE very truthful and touching.  He seemed honestly taken aback on what he might've deprived QE of.

I also seem to remember that QE went to his funeral.  Am I remembering that correctly? 

If so, that would indicate that she held him in some affection.  Also, if any of his letters have been made public, then the producers could've gleaned information on the Duke's relationship with members of the Royal Family.

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9 hours ago, roamyn said:

I also seem to remember that QE went to his funeral.  Am I remembering that correctly? 

Yes. It was held at Windsor, where he was buried in the Royal Burial Ground. The queen also invited the duchess to stay at Buckingham Palace for the duration of her trip.

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16 hours ago, roamyn said:

Also, if any of his letters have been made public, then the producers could've gleaned information on the Duke's relationship with members of the Royal Family.

A few of David's letters to his long time mistress Mrs Dudley Ward (the woman before Mrs Simpson) shows David's private character and how he hated his duties. In another letter, he didn't seem particularly sad about the death of his brother John.

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David seemed to have a hard time keeping hold of his letters...remember it was a major plot point in one of the later seasons of Downton Abbey, when the Crawleys, staunch royalists, tracked down a purloined letter and returned it to the Prince.

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On 11/9/2016 at 1:18 AM, Bec said:

He did a good job looking like he was actually sorry, but since he clearly showed he thinks Philip is such a nobody (that foundling!) in the earlier scene with Queen Mary, I bet he was boiling mad on the inside.

Can someone explain why DoW called Philip a foundling? I'm learning a lot of what I know about the royals' history from this show, so this point confuses me. I get that Philip was poor, apparently, but we see that he has an actual father (and mother?--I can't remember if she was shown), so he's not an orphan, which is what a foundling is.

Also, I'm confused as to how he could be so poor when his father, quite obviously from the depiction in the show, is so rich. 

If this has been explained here, I apologize for repeating the question, but somehow I still don't get it. If someone wants to take a crack at it (or another crack at it), I'll appreciate it.

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Philip's childhood was really sad. As minor royals, they weren't wealthy to begin with. His father ran off (to Paris, I believe) with another woman, and this led to his mother having a series of nervous breakdowns. Philip was passed around from family member to family member. His favorite sister and her husband died in a plane crash (his sister was heavily pregnant at the time).

I don't think Philip's father was ever shown; we saw him with his uncle Lord Mountbatten, who was rich due to marrying Edwina Ashley, an heiress.

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1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think Philip's father was ever shown; we saw him with his uncle Lord Mountbatten, who was rich due to marrying Edwina Ashley, an heiress.

Oh! Thank you for this. I thought that was his father. (Someone in the ep probably said at some point that it was his uncle, but if so I missed it.)

Thanks also for the Philip childhood history. I can see now that DoW's calling him a "foundling" was more in the realm of a catty comment justified by the facts than a literal description justified by the facts.

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On 11/5/2016 at 3:36 AM, Ariah said:

When Philip said: "What kind of marriage is this, what kind of family? You've taken my career from me, you've taken my home, you've taken my name..." I thought - 'Well, it's been like this for a lot of women getting married'. Just a side though.

 

You're speaking from an entirely different time and place Philip was, though. It's values dissonance.

 

At that time, he had no reason to believe anything would keep his children from carrying his name and there's no reason to eye roll him only for the reason he was put out when he found out that they wouldn't.

Edited by katie9918
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Women did keep their names back then, though, especially if they were already established under their maiden names, as Elizabeth sort of was. Even aside from that, though, he was joining a reigning family, marrying the heiress apparent. To expect his name to be taken was naive, I think.

I do have sympathy for him giving up his naval career and trying to find out where to fit in within the royal family. That's difficult unless you marry a relatively minor royal like a cousin or child of a non-heir.

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4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Women did keep their names back then, though, especially if they were already established under their maiden names, as Elizabeth sort of was. Even aside from that, though, he was joining a reigning family, marrying the heiress apparent. To expect his name to be taken was naive, I think.

Except that is exactly what happened with their Great Great Grandmother, Queen Victoria.   She married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, she took his name, and the royal house changed from Hanover to Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.  That was then changed to Windsor during WWI to separate the family from its German name.  The problem is there are so few precedents for this situation.  But it was well within reason for him to expect his name to at least attach to his children.  He still could have handled it better though.

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On ‎7‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 7:33 PM, SeanC said:

I believe it was paid out of George VI's own incomes, which is why the Queen Mother was eager to cut it off.

George also had to buy him out of various private possessions of the monarch, like Sandringham, which aren't automatically owned by whoever wears the crown.

That's right, but in addition Edward had made huge savings when he was the Prince of Wales for as the duke of Cornwall he owned vast estates. He lied about his fortune before the abdication in order to get more money from his brother.

The duchess of Windsor had live in (relatively) meagre conditions in her youth and was paranoid to become poor again although it was very unlikely.      

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On 2/12/2017 at 4:40 PM, ajsnaves said:

Except that is exactly what happened with their Great Great Grandmother, Queen Victoria.   She married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, she took his name, and the royal house changed from Hanover to Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.  That was then changed to Windsor during WWI to separate the family from its German name.  The problem is there are so few precedents for this situation.  But it was well within reason for him to expect his name to at least attach to his children.  He still could have handled it better though.

So if QV did this only 100 years previously, why couldn't QEII do so?  Was there such a difference in status between Albert and Phillip?

Did David end up getting his 10,000 pounds?  I assume so, that QEII gave it to him, in exchange for his advise and counsel to her.  I had to check, and 1 pound in 1952 is worth about 24 pounds in 2017 (and of course, converting that to dollars - for my better understanding - means to at least double it, since the pound has always been worth more than dollar).

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