S03.E07: The Threshold

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Joe and Ryan deal with the consequences of Joe's decision. Meanwhile, Cameron and Donna fight about the future; and Gordon has a crisis of conscience.

[minamurray78]

Jesus, where to start. The Donna/Cameron meltdown we've all been waiting for? The Joe/Gordon reunion we all knew was gonna happen? The Cameron/Boz breakup nobody wanted to see? Ryan... what the hell did Ryan just do?

I need to rewatch, not gonna lie, I've been waiting a couple of seasons to hear the things Donna and Cam yelled at each other.

[Dowel Jones]

At least Cameron moved out before the shank.  That would have been awkward.

I think Gordon is channeling his inner Machiavelli and stirring the pot for his own ends.  He set Cameron up for that confrontation, he knows what Joe is angling for (even if we don't), so I think he has some master plan.  Or maybe he just thinks he has some master plan.  In any case, Ryan, the self-absorbed boy wonder, pulled the rug out from everyone by essentially removing any worth from Joe's (now Gordon's) company.  They have nothing to sell.

Worst wedding party ever.  I did kind of like Donna's very pointed remark about handing the company over to a "petulant child".  Cameron's reaction proved her point.  Not that Donna is the savior, either, but Cameron has a very inflated sense of her own importance to the company, as though she and she alone got them to where they are.

In an IPO, how much of the company is normally offered to the public?  I would think that the original investors (Cameron/Donna/Joe/Diane/Boz/SwapMeet) would still keep the majority of the stock and therefore control of the company.  Outside investors would surely get a seat or two on the BOD, sure, but it shouldn't be the end of a dream.  And, as Donna says, the improvements could still be done on a timeline.

I loved Cameron's snark about SwapMeet becoming "a place where people sell junk to no-one".  And later on, a multibillion dollar multinational business.

Joe is going to rat out Ryan.  Just watch.

[ketose]

2 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

At least Cameron moved out before the shank.  That would have been awkward.

I think Gordon is channeling his inner Machiavelli and stirring the pot for his own ends.  He set Cameron up for that confrontation, he knows what Joe is angling for (even if we don't), so I think he has some master plan.  Or maybe he just thinks he has some master plan.  In any case, Ryan, the self-absorbed boy wonder, pulled the rug out from everyone by essentially removing any worth from Joe's (now Gordon's) company.  They have nothing to sell.

Worst wedding party ever.  I did kind of like Donna's very pointed remark about handing the company over to a "petulant child".  Cameron's reaction proved her point.  Not that Donna is the savior, either, but Cameron has a very inflated sense of her own importance to the company, as though she and she alone got them to where they are.

In an IPO, how much of the company is normally offered to the public?  I would think that the original investors (Cameron/Donna/Joe/Diane/Boz/SwapMeet) would still keep the majority of the stock and therefore control of the company.  Outside investors would surely get a seat or two on the BOD, sure, but it shouldn't be the end of a dream.  And, as Donna says, the improvements could still be done on a timeline.

I loved Cameron's snark about SwapMeet becoming "a place where people sell junk to no-one".  And later on, a multibillion dollar multinational business.

Joe is going to rat out Ryan.  Just watch.

I don't know about Gordon stirring the pot. Bos told Cameron to work it out. Diane told Donna to work it out. Gordon told Donna and Cameron (separately) to work it out. Neither of them wanted to work it out. Cameron was the last to know, at least Gordon let her get shanked in the front.

Hopefully, the show realizes that Ryan is useless as well. There's this thing called circumstantial evidence. If someone steals source code, they probably work for the company. The Chairman of the board might even know it's Ryan, but he'll let Joe take the fall.

Cam, Donna and Gordon have something like 60% of Mutiny. Cameron's problem is that she wants to control everything. She could cajole Bos and roll over Donna. She bought out the Swap Meet guys and she can't bully Diane and that meant she might not be able to do whatever she wants. The improvements could be made even as a public company, but Cameron would have to get permission and it isn't worth it to her.

[Auntie Anxiety]

For someone who is supposedly such a genius, Cameron should know that there are probably dozens of people working on similar projects and that there is a strong likelihood that while she's trying to get Mutiny overhauled and prettied up (in a year or two) someone else will have surpassed Mutiny.  Cam, the company is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it! I've had it with her.

[dubbel zout]

I think Cam's blinkeredness is pretty common, actually, especially when it comes to something totally new. But it's also entirely in her character to believe her version of whatever is the version. 

[mjc570]

I thought that was a pretty good episode, mainly because I am tired of Cam's bs (Donna's characterization of her as a petulant child was spot on).  I especially despise how holier than thou she is with regard to Donna's lying, as if she had nothing to do with it.  If she hadn't been so selfish and irresponsible, poor Donna wouldn't have been in the position where she felt she had to do something.  I have to admit that I've never understood how committed Donna is to Mutiny - I understand that she's put a ton of unrecognized effort into building it up, even if she didn't write the code herself, but it seems she could have taken her skill set (female + engineer/tech + business experience) somewhere else.  And don't even get me started on Gordon.

Speaking of Gordon, one thing I don't like is how he is somehow omniscient now.  Doesn't he ever make a mistake?  I was looking forward to seeing Gordon and Joe work together to develop the internet ( I assume), but it looks like it's not going to happen now that Ryan has destroyed the company's value.

Speaking of Ryan - what an idiot, not for releasing the code but for assuming it won't be traced back to him.  And this was the sharp guy everyone wanted? 

I was so afraid the show was going to take the easy way out - Bos would vote with Ca,. they'd tinker with the company and push back the IPO for a few years and it would turn out to be the right decision after all. 

Speaking of Bos - much as I like him, I still don't get why Diane is so into him.  She is not just amazing beautiful, smart, charming, rich etc., but a good investor.  I guess she must see something worthwhile in someone with his past, who is older and (sorry) not the most handsome man around.  I'm not sure I expressed myself well, here, I certainly don't intend to denigate him, it just seems like such an unlikely, unrealistic pairing.

[AllyB]

4 hours ago, mjc570 said:

Speaking of Bos - much as I like him, I still don't get why Diane is so into him.  She is not just amazing beautiful, smart, charming, rich etc., but a good investor.  I guess she must see something worthwhile in someone with his past, who is older and (sorry) not the most handsome man around.  I'm not sure I expressed myself well, here, I certainly don't intend to denigate him, it just seems like such an unlikely, unrealistic pairing.

Well sometimes attraction is just chemical and it's not unheard of for someone to just be attracted to someone for reasons that aren't immediately obvious. But I think she became attracted to him when he renegotiated the Swap Meet buy out. She liked his business savvy and bravery. Added to that, he clearly just respects her in her position in the same way he would if she was a man. He doesn't attempt to mansplain or subtly belittle her in a way that she probably experiences daily.

Or she might just like his accent. :)

[scowl]

Ryan looked like a complete idiot from the beginning and now looks like a tragic idiot now. He stole a company's entire product and he will never never ever get another job in the industry ever again. He'll be lucky if he can find a job reading gas meters. They sure don't make these characters very deep or surprising.

I've really lost interest in this show. It seems like most plot points involve someone doing something stupid merely to get the plot moving then acting like spoiled children when the inevitable consequences arrive. I know that's what passes for drama on basic cable these days and that's why I don't watch much of it. It's also making the technical mess ups even more irritating to me, like Cameron instantly getting an amateur radio licence like it was a CB radio and just happens to find Gordon on one of thousands of frequencies.

And it's the "fresh start" thing again, just like last season. Fresh start means more of the same. 

[dubbel zout]

I will not be sad to see this season end, and I'm not sure I'm up for another one. Too much of the same nonsense.

[ketose]

At least Gordon is on an upswing for the moment. He bought the internet from McMillan and Cameron is out of Mutiny. Of course, I have to wonder how much money is involved. They keep throwing around figures. I assume rather than take a possible $25 million years down the road, Gordon wants to leave a legacy by being at the ground floor of the public internet. But he also got six figures from Cardiff. Are they keeping any of this money or are they throwing it into new companies?

[Texasmom1970]

I see Cameron in a totally different way as everyone else. I think she is just do invested in the company, her baby she reacts badly to change and feels like she is losing a part of herself every time. In an odd, dysfunctional way she thinks of Bos, Gordon, Donna and the others as her family. So I think her being voted against felt like the ultimate betrayal.

My opinion of Gordon did go up some with him telling Cameron what was about to go down, even though he is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[qtpye]

I think Cam overestimates her value.  Yes, she reversed engineered the bios in season one, but Mutiny would have been long dead if it was not for Gordon and Donna.  Gordon paid the rent and kept the lights on and Donna saw the future in Community, not games...something Cameron fought every step of the way.

Cam wants to control everything substantial, disappear whenever she is in a mood, and let Donna handle all the boring stuff...she is a tyrant.

That being said, the actress that plays Cameron nails the role....otherwise, she would be a cartoon.

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, Texasmom1970 said:

My opinion of Gordon did go up some with him telling Cameron what was about to go down, even though he is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Yeah, when Cameron was about to tee off on Donna, he was pretty stern.  "Be careful, that's my wife."

[AllyB]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think Cam overestimates her value.  Yes, she reversed engineered the bios in season one, but Mutiny would have been long dead if it was not for Gordon and Donna.  Gordon paid the rent and kept the lights on and Donna saw the future in Community, not games...something Cameron fought every step of the way.

Donna did more than that. While she's moved more now into the business side of the business, her initial role was as hardware engineer. She literally kept their technology working even when all they had was cobbled together on a shoe string. Gordon looks after that side of things now and it's an easier job as his money has paid for better equipment but originally Donna's technological expertise and dedication was what kept Mutiny physically running.

8 hours ago, ketose said:

At least Gordon is on an upswing for the moment. He bought the internet from McMillan and Cameron is out of Mutiny. Of course, I have to wonder how much money is involved. They keep throwing around figures. I assume rather than take a possible $25 million years down the road, Gordon wants to leave a legacy by being at the ground floor of the public internet. But he also got six figures from Cardiff. Are they keeping any of this money or are they throwing it into new companies?

Pretty much all his Cardiff money was spent buying the mainframe for Mutiny in exchange for his 10% of the company. A crappy business decision that Donna forced on him in order to save their marriage. Though it's now paying off with the IPO, which could also be part of why Gordon voted with Donna. Yes she's his wife and he kind of has to. But he also ploughed his life's earnings into the company and trading shares now means he's likely to get a good return on money that would otherwise have been lost.

[thuganomics85]

Fight!  Fight!  It was only a matter of time, really.  I suspect that in the long run, this show will make Cameron be in the right, but I was with Donna that waiting a year or even two is just too risky, and likely their value would have plummeted, with the way technology was even changing back then.  Of course, Cameron didn't help things by truly becoming a petulant child at the end.  Actually slamming her hands on the table?  She thinks she is some kind of badass or something?  And then when she demands they vote right then and there (as oppose to Bos' suggestion to cool off for a bit), she suddenly gets on teary when things don't go her way?  Stuff like this is why I actually can understand why Donna would lie to her.  Lying is usually bad, but when the truth involves temper tantrums like this, it's just doesn't feel worth it.  Again though, I suspect they'll make it backfire and Cameron were get her revenge.  Yawn.

Oh, boy!  Joe and Gordon are back together, again!

Joe is so going to sell Ryan out.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

Donna did more than that. While she's moved more now into the business side of the business, her initial role was as hardware engineer. She literally kept their technology working even when all they had was cobbled together on a shoe string. Gordon looks after that side of things now and it's an easier job as his money has paid for better equipment but originally Donna's technological expertise and dedication was what kept Mutiny physically running.

Yes, exactly.  Cameron gets a huge pass often because of her genius, but she has been more of a liability then an asset.  She also expects people to baby her tantrums and childish behavior and then gets angry when people do not respect her a their leader.

[dubbel zout]

Cam wants total autonomy and outside investment to expand, and it just doesn't work that way. I don't think anyone begrudges her possessiveness for Mutant; what I begrudge is her absolute refusal to be reasonable. She sees every outsider as an attack rather than as a possible partner. If she'd just calm down and listen, she might find that people are trying to give her as much of wants she wants as they can. But she's unwilling to accept anything she doesn't like. (Or if she does accept it, she then does her best to torpedo it.)

[qtpye]

Yes, there is no sense of compromise with Cam.  She takes anything that is not in agreement with her vision as a personal insult.  She does not even nurture talent well, as evidenced by the way Ryan was so miserable at Mutiny.

They could have come to a compromise...maybe waited for Cam to do some of the fixes, but still go for the IPO fairly quickly, while the iron is hot.

No, again it's her way or the highway.

Donna is far from perfect, but at least she tries to find a middle ground.

So, is Gordon rich or did Ryan just screw everything?

Edited September 29, 2016 by qtpye

[orza]

Quote

So, is Gordon rich or did Ryan just screw everything?

Joe handed over the equipment and keys to Gordon so he must have also gotten his $2.5 million. I don't think Gordon is screwed. He's not interested in the antivirus software. Gordon had figured out what Joe's big new idea was before his meeting with the MacMillan chairman. He got what he wanted - hardware and money to launch a new venture with Joe.

Ryan, on the other hand, is screwed. The moment he said to Joe "I'm that good." it was clear he's going  down. If push comes to shove, Joe will tell the MacMillan lawyers it was Ryan who leaked the code to protect his new venture with Gordon.

[dubbel zout]

30 minutes ago, orza said:

Ryan, on the other hand, is screwed. The moment he said to Joe "I'm that good." it was clear he's going  down. If push comes to shove, Joe will tell the MacMillan lawyers it was Ryan who leaked the code to protect his new venture with Gordon.

I still find it hard to believe that Ryan appeared to do absolutely no research on Joe before joining him. The Internet might not have existed back then, but there were libraries and microfiche and bound copies of magazines. Ugh. He's one person I can't feel sorry for.

[AllyB]

What is Ryan's deal anyway? What type of person when being manipulated into wondering if their mentor has used him by his mentor's 'enemies.' Calls his mentor to ask if that's true, immediately (and aggressively) hangs up when told, he's not using him. And then does something illegal and disastrous to his mentor's enemies? It makes no sense. It was a plot clearly written to fool the audience into thinking Ryan didn't trust Joe and had destroyed their infant internet in anger but the reveal of what Ryan actually did made no sense in the characterisation of anyone with human thought processes.

He's a very poorly written character anyway. At times I think he's being (badly) written as someone with high functioning Autism. He occasionally seems quite emotionless and tightly focussed while having trouble understanding basic human reactions. Like an android or a bemused Vulcan. Then at other times he can read the correct intention behind an action with almost telepathic precision. Like when Donna and Cameron gave him a raise after he outlined his ideas to improve Mutiny. He somehow immediately and correctly knew that they were giving him the money to make him stop bothering them with his ideas. He's not really a character, just a plot device that was created to give Joe someone to talk to so the audience could watch his internet creation thought process, while still keeping him vaguely connected to Mutiny.

Edited September 29, 2016 by AllyB

[tennisgurl]

Cam really is extremely talented when it comes to coding, but she is crap as a business person. I mean, Donna was in the wrong to try to blindside Cam, but she has really tried to meet Cam halfway, and she will never listen, and she never wants to compromise. She just yells and gets upset. 

Ryan...what is even his point? Why is he here, what are his motivations? 

Probably the best acted episode of the season, all the regulars killed it. That whole voting scene at the end was just really well done by everything. I am also looking forward to Joe maybe getting more to do, and letting Lee Pace actually do something.

[dubbel zout]

53 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I am also looking forward to Joe maybe getting more to do, and letting Lee Pace actually do something.

They haven't known what to do with Joe after the first season, IMO.

[Hanahope]

Ryan is there to give Lee Pace someone to act with. Without Ryan, Joe would have to explain to the air his thought process.  

Donna is definitely right about Mutiny and Cam. But will Mutiny be ok without Cam? I'm wondering if they'll be able to make any of the changes Cam proposes. At least Donna has the notes so she can always hire another good coder. Ryan us looking for a job again.

its so funny seeing Mutiny's graphics and remembering how chunky everything looked back then.

[2AT]

Please see below...

Edited October 1, 2016 by 2AT

[2AT]

On 9/28/2016 at 6:25 PM, AllyB said:

Well sometimes attraction is just chemical and it's not unheard of for someone to just be attracted to someone for reasons that aren't immediately obvious. But I think she became attracted to him when he renegotiated the Swap Meet buy out. She liked his business savvy and bravery. Added to that, he clearly just respects her in her position in the same way he would if she was a man. He doesn't attempt to mansplain or subtly belittle her in a way that she probably experiences daily.

Or she might just like his accent. :)

Besides a physical attraction, I also think that Diane likes the fact that Bos is "the new kid in school."   If you are part of a certain type business or social circle, you tend to interact with the same people over and over again.  After a while, everyone knows everything about you and you them - the rumors, gossip, ex-husbands, affairs, etc.   Her slate is clean with Bos and I can see how someone could find that attractive.  

Cameron wanting to wait a year or two on the IPO is exactly like when I tell my 4-year old "later" when he's harassing me for Oreos.  I have no intention of giving in, but I hope the concept of later satisfies him in the immediate while buying me enough time for him to either forget about the cookies, or move on to something else.

Edited October 1, 2016 by 2AT

[attica]

39 minutes ago, 2AT said:

Cameron wanting to wait a year or two on the IPO is exactly like when I tell my 4-year old "later" when he's harassing me for Oreos.

I agree, but Donna's 'we can work on it after going public' shows a naivete about what is always, always required of a publicly held company: no more tinkering -- profits now! Even Steve Jobs had to cough up enough profits in order to elbow in the space needed to create, and he still managed to get himself ousted from his own company for more than 10 years.

[qtpye]

On 10/1/2016 at 2:14 PM, 2AT said:

Cameron wanting to wait a year or two on the IPO is exactly like when I tell my 4-year old "later" when he's harassing me for Oreos.  I have no intention of giving in, but I hope the concept of later satisfies him in the immediate while buying me enough time for him to either forget about the cookies, or move on to something else.

Yeah, I felt like Cameron was bullshitting about wanting the IPO, she is very protective of Mutiny would not like a board overseeing her decisions.

 

On 10/1/2016 at 2:58 PM, attica said:

Even Steve Jobs had to cough up enough profits in order to elbow in the space needed to create, and he still managed to get himself ousted from his own company for more than 10 years.

I can see Cameron getting ousted very soon after the IPO.  The board is not going to put up with her tantrums and childish behavior.  Heck, she even pushed Boz into a corner and that man loves her like a daughter.

[dubbel zout]

I don't know why someone hasn't sat Cam down and told her what's what in a calm, nonconfrontational manner. Tell her if she wants x to happen, y will have to occur. If she can't deal with that, she needs to accept what Mutiny can and cannot be. 

This seems like a scene that we should see.

[attica]

16 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't know why someone hasn't sat Cam down and told her what's what in a calm, nonconfrontational manner.

But then the show would be over! Can't have a show without ridiculously kept secrets and confrontational confrontations!

Sorry. I'm still a little discombobulated about an episode in which Gordon showed some spine/sense. :)

[dubbel zout]

1 minute ago, attica said:

But then the show would be over! Can't have a show without ridiculously kept secrets and confrontational confrontations!

Someone's taking too many cues from soap operas.

[Hanahope]

Maybe Cam should have seriously considered the $20mill offer from Compuserve.  Even if she had to work with them for a little while, they'd might like her tinkering around and making improvements.  If not, she could use her $10mill and have the freedom to dream up a new company with new ideas without Donna.

[dubbel zout]

Cam needs Donna (or a Donna) to help get any company off the ground. She's hopeless with the day-to-day managing.

[ganesh]

On 9/28/2016 at 0:59 AM, Dowel Jones said:

I think Gordon is channeling his inner Machiavelli and stirring the pot for his own ends. 

I really like this. The show essentially started with Joe pulling the strings with Gordon, which really put the show in motion, and to turn that circle is just really interesting. It's like these two have to circle their orbits. 

[paramitch]

Man, Cam versus Donna upset me so much... I hate seeing them opposed like this, when they are so good as partners when there's a little give and take.

This episode broke my heart, but in a good way. I was so frustrated at (and for) Cam, because she's her own worst enemy. She did this to herself, and it was painful to watch. Especially because she did that thing she so often does where her version of compromise is simply "Great. So we'll do it my way. I promise you'll be happy."

But even though I knew it had to be coming, watching Cam's absolute devastation at losing everything that mattered to her in one fell swoop was brutal. And the actors were so, so good in that moment when they had to vote. Bos's anger and sadness (and Gordon's) really hurt in a visceral way. And it hurt because you could see how much they care about Cam... even as Cam won't or can't see how hard that was for them.

Meanwhile, I like what they're doing with Joe, and like that he's still a self-serving slippery bastard, but that I think he did in fact want to do right by Gordon (profiting at the same time of course, being Joe), and same with Ryan -- he was there to offer Ryan the literal key to the kingdom. Before finding out that Ryan had torched everything. Sigh.

 

On 9/28/2016 at 10:34 AM, mjc570 said:

Speaking of Bos - much as I like him, I still don't get why Diane is so into him.  She is not just amazing beautiful, smart, charming, rich etc., but a good investor.  I guess she must see something worthwhile in someone with his past, who is older and (sorry) not the most handsome man around.  I'm not sure I expressed myself well, here, I certainly don't intend to denigate him, it just seems like such an unlikely, unrealistic pairing.

I love Bos; he's easily one of my favorite characters on this show. Sure, maybe he's not the handsomest guy in any room (although he doesn't break glass), but I think he's got a certain, wily Texas charm, and he's smart, funny, humble, kind, and he sings great. I totally love Diane with him and think they have a lovely, easy chemistry. I love how honest they are with each other, too. Somehow they just work, and you can tell it's instant, one of those lightning bolt situations when two perfect people find each other. He's soft where she's steely, and he's emotional and accessible in ways she patently loves, even if it's hard for her to do, herself.

On 10/8/2016 at 9:43 PM, ganesh said:

I really like this. The show essentially started with Joe pulling the strings with Gordon, which really put the show in motion, and to turn that circle is just really interesting. It's like these two have to circle their orbits. 

I may have gotten a little verklempt when Gordon watched Joe walk almost to the door and then said, "49%." Somehow I've still wanted those two crazy kids to work it all out. It feels right to have them back together and inventing the Internet! Not least because we know Joe is truly onto something world-changing and historic, and if Gordon's sick, I want him in on it. I want him to have a huge legacy; he deserves it.