Mary Margaret: Is Snow White Again?

[Curio]

I am not happy that Snow left the Underworld w/o checking the fate of her parents. I didn't expect a long scene, but I thought we would get something. I guess David won't be looking for his parents' gravestones either.

 

Because Snow and Charming are not Regina. Only Regina is allowed to have significant interactions with her mother and father in the Underworld.

 

The writers could always try to play it off and say that the White/Nolan families are so nice and pure that they would immediately forgive their murderers and go straight to heaven. But still...it does show a character bias.

[Mari]

The writers could always try to play it off and say that the White/Nolan families are so nice and pure that they would immediately forgive their murderers and go straight to heaven. But still...it does show a character bias.

Are we talking about the same White and Nolan family?  Because, after all, shouldn't they be hanging around Underbrooke so that they can be forgiven by people like Cora, for example, for not letting her con Leopold?  Because that was true evil.

[HoodlumSheep]

I figured she looked for her parents during the scene where she happens upon Herc's grave. It looked like she had been wandering around the graveyard, so she could have seen her parent's graves offscreen, of course.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about how we were all pleasantly surprised when MM announced she wanted to be Snow White again in the Hercules episode.  But if you think in terms of the entire season, Ginny got to play actual character development once this season, in a filler episode.  Charming didn't even get that.

This "big" realization did not have to occur in the Underworld.  In fact, it was pretty much out of nowhere and went nowhere.  Why couldn't she have had this realization in Camelot, when she felt helpless in helping Emma?  Was it because they needed her to hold the idiot ball when Zelena tricked her and then suddenly had the power to help Arthur control Merlin (well, that was easy!)?  If anything, why didn't that moment of weakness make Snow have the realization? 

On another front, does A&E realize they didn't have Snowing interact with Dark Emma at all in 5A, or did they know it and not care?   

Edited June 7, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Considering that they decided to the whole Regina and Evil Queen, that's probably why they decided that Snow White was required. Probably has nothing to do with Snow herself.

Edited June 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

My theory is that Channing Dungey may have given A&E a hint or two.

[justmythoughts]

I was rewatching S4 now... Not much to say about Snowing now at the end of S5, I hope A&E give them some more action forward.

But upon thinking of Regina it got me one thing: I hated the eggnapping nonsense back in S4, but I was easily able to forgive, specially because our heroes (in any situation where they've done wrong things, when the show decide to show their actions as wrong ones, or evil) show remorse, they punish themselves.

Like Snow with Cora... She offered her heart so Regina could kill her. Horrible, hated that plot. But even so, it shows the difference that makes usually easier to forgive them: good people acknowledge the impact of their actions in others' lives. Evil people usually care only about themselves. 

Not saying Snow is perfect. Far from it. But she sounds a little more realistic because she tends to think about others and how they feel. Sometimes that  makes her terribly annoying as well!

[Curio]

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This was just another excuse to paint Snow as a selfish young girl who didn't even notice that her step-mother was treated "horribly" by her father that he wouldn't even dance with his wife. It's as though David and Snow were Regina's parents, and Snow was just a friend of Emma who helped her get dressed.

I'm so confused about what the show is trying to tell us about Snow's relationship with Regina and Emma. Do the writers seriously expect the audience to sympathize more with Regina when she whines about not dancing with Snow's father, AKA the man she had murdered? And why is it the responsibility of the child to look out for the parent? Sure, Regina might have only been a decade older than Snow at the time, but still...who in their right mind would expect a 10-year-old girl to look out for her 18-year-old stepmother's feelings and tell her father to go dance with her? Maybe Snow's father wanted to dance with Snow because Snow felt really lonely because her mother always danced with her because...you know...Cora murdered Snow's mom. So Leo didn't want to make his 10-year-old daughter cry on the dance floor and feel bad about her mother being dead, so he would dance with Snow while Regina probably offered to sulk in the corner by herself out of her own free will.

Why doesn't the show ever give us Snow's side of things when it comes to Regina vs. Snow? The only thing Snow is allowed to say is, "I was 10-years-old!" But that only scratches the surface of what Regina did to her as a child and young adult. Why isn't Snow allowed to say, "Yes, you might not have been able to dance with my father, but you also had him murdered, and with my mother being dead, I really wanted a mother figure to dance with, but you always escaped and were never around." The blatant writing favoritism is so crazy to me. It's like the writers' tactic of making the audience feel sympathy for Regina is to completely silence one side of the court room.

Prosecutor: "Your Honor, my client here is clearly innocent because Ms. White over there was such a brat and purposely made Ms. Mills' life terrible. I rest my case."
Judge: "Well, I think I've heard everything I needed to hear. This court announces Ms. White guilty."
Defense Attorney: "But Your Honor, we haven't even stated our side of the story yet! Don't we get a rebuttal?"
Judge: "Nope, no one gives a shit about your side of the story. Case dismissed."

The writers want Snow to act as Regina's mom, even though she's around a decade younger than her and Regina was supposed to be a mother figure to her growing up, and because of this, Snow hasn't been able to be the best mom towards Emma in the present. I guess the writers got their wish by making Regina and Emma "sisters" because Snow is practically both of their moms at this point.

Oh, and don't even get me started on Regina being the one to say, "It's about time," when Mary Margaret announced she wanted to be Snow again...

Edited July 1, 2016 by Curio

[Mari]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

I'm so confused about what the show is trying to tell us about Snow's relationship with Regina and Emma. Do the writers seriously expect the audience to sympathize more with Regina when she whines about not dancing with Snow's father, AKA the man she had murdered?

Well, yes.    

 

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Why doesn't the show ever give us Snow's side of things when it comes to Regina vs. Snow? The only thing Snow is allowed to say is, "I was 10-years-old!" But that only scratches the surface of what Regina did to her as a child and young adult. Why isn't Snow allowed to say, "Yes, you might not have been able to dance with my father, but you also had him murdered, and with my mother being dead, I really wanted a mother figure to dance with, but you always escaped and were never around." 

I think it's a combination of things.    First, they really like Regina more, and think the audience does, as well.  (Um. . . no.  Not all of us.)  Then, when you factor in things like their intention to flip the story--to do what Wicked  did and humanize and flesh out the villain, it ends up with us being given over and over again a combination of Regina's evilness and Regina's victimhood.  It doesn't seem to occur to them that they're just having Regina whine about something that was ridiculous and impossible, given what we know about Leopold and Cora.  

They're assuming that we already know Snow's side, and backstory, and she doesn't need to have her side told.  Personally, I think it's another case of   "There's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story. That's just showbiz." —Edward Kitsis.  

And it doesn't occur to them that giving Snow that 10 second response would be more realistic and natural, as well as make the relationship between Snow and Regina more interesting.  After all, we already know Snow is spunky, and a good person.  They're moving on to the story they don't think we've figured out, yet. 

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Mari said:

They're assuming that we already know Snow's side, and backstory, and she doesn't need to have her side told.

The first season did a great job of fleshing out Snow's story and doing the hero's equivalent to Hollywood's obsession with fleshing out the villain's story. We know Snow is a hero, but her flashbacks made her three-dimensional and interesting. But ever since they went full-steam-ahead on the Woegina World Tour, Snow's story had to take a step back and her character became more one-dimensional over the years. They have freaking Ginnifer Goodwin and haven't given her any meaty scenes in years. It's no wonder she'd rather be off doing Zootopia promotion instead of celebrating OUAT's 100th Anniversary. Her voice acting in Zootopia was probably more of a stretch for her as an actress than any scene she's been given on OUAT since Season 1.

I really want Snow to have a large focus on the show again. I loved her character in Season 1 and she was actually my main reason for tuning in back then (yes, she even surpassed Emma, which is crazy for me to think about now), but Season 2 onwards, she's been a supporting character to Regina and Emma. I fear that the writers just don't care about her character anymore, though, so she'll forever remain in the background and occasionally get a centric episode per season until the series finale.

How hard would it have been to include Snow on the Regina/Emma road trip in Season 4? Why didn't the writers see that as a great opportunity for some awkward road trip shenanigans and relationship development? Why wouldn't Snow want to go confront Lily and make amends to the baby she accidentally sent to a new land? Why haven't Snow and Emma shared any road trips together, while Regina and Emma already have two? Why was Snow more focused on throwing a carnival for the Camelot people instead of trying to reach out to her Dark One Daughter? Why didn't she get a single scene talking to Dark Swan? I feel like these are really simple changes that could drastically help her character, but there's no one on the writing team who cheers for Snow like there is for Regina.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

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Why was Snow more focused on throwing a carnival for the Camelot people instead of trying to reach out to her Dark One Daughter?

If that was actually about Snow, we would have seen Snow planning the carnival, trying to win over the Camelot population, etc.  As it were, they were using Snow to set up the idea of the carnival, since they needed Henry to ride in on a horse.  When you can easily substitute Snow's dialogue with someone else saying it, that means the storyline was not about her.  The Writers can't even separate Snow and Charming as individuals since their lines have been interchangeable since Season 3.  As this point, David can't be described as Snow's prop when Snow herself is also a prop, and when you use Ginnifer Goodwin as a prop year after year... well, what a waste.

Even the whole Lancelot/Arthur episode... it shed zero light on Snow as a character.  The Hercules episode was just there with no actual development or true follow-up to why Snow didn't want to be Mary Margaret anymore, why she needed Regina to remind her of that, etc.  Even the babynapping... how did it develop Snow other than to paint her as gullible, idiotic, untrustworthy and a liar, and dropping her to the level of Regina, as someone who would separate a poor mother from her baby for 28 years for selfish reasons?

Edited July 1, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

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The Hercules episode was just there with no actual development or true follow-up to why Snow didn't want to be Mary Margaret anymore, why she needed Regina to remind her of that

This just made me realize how many times in the past year Regina has been used as the character to "remind someone of who they really are." They used Regina as the person to talk Emma down from shooting Lily. They used Regina to talk Dark Hook down and remind him about his father. They used Regina to remind Mary Margaret about Snow White. Why is Regina somehow the magical therapy person who reminds people of their better selves when she doesn't even want to deal with her own dark demons?

[Camera One]

Replying in Regina thread.

[daxx]

@Dani-Ellie, have you seen how my (our really) post has exploded on tumblr? Apparently we are not the only one frustrated by the writing for Snow/MM.

http://daxx04.tumblr.com/post/146893826354/what-we-have-with-her-is-unique-but-its-not-what

It's sad because I used to love Snow, always found MM lacking but I did used to love Snow.

[angora]

On 7/4/2016 at 7:52 AM, daxx said:

It's sad because I used to love Snow, always found MM lacking but I did used to love Snow.

When I first started watching Once, Snow was my absolute favorite and I hated that Mary Margaret was so milquetoast.  As season 1 went on, however, I realized that that was basically the point.  Mary Margaret is part of Snow White's punishment, Regina taking her strength and spark from her and leaving her a doormat, and part of Mary Margaret's journey that season is to find bits in the inner Snow she doesn't even realize is still in her.  It doesn't make me like seeing Mary Margaret being weak any better, but it helps me understand it.

The problem, as we all know, is that the curse broke and we never fully got our Snow back.  I know that, while Josh went for the full Charming right away, Ginny went for a blend of Snow and Mary Margaret, which could have been interesting in itself, but the writers have never bothered to explore it.  Until we (thankfully) started getting back to Snow in 5B, the only other time she really worked for me post-curse was during the Team Princess stuff in 2A - there, she got to do some cool and badass things (and Emma got to see it, which was also important.)  Plus, I feel like it's not a coincidence that 2A and 5B are the times I best like Snow's relationship with Emma.  Is it everything I want from them?  No, of course not, but both of these arcs show them at least trying and give us good scenes between them.  It coincides, not so much with the presence of Snow specifically, but with the writers showing a modicum of interest in the character and even moderately caring about how she's written.

Think of what the Snow-Mary Margaret blend could have been like if the writers had put any effort into it.  You could've had Snow trying to regain the life she once had, reuniting with Charming and trying to form this relationship with her long-lost daughter, attempting to put the pieces back together, but she feels different.  In every situation, there's a part of her that wants to back down and roll over, there's a part of her self-confidence that's eroded, and she has to fight against those instincts that are now within her and will probably always be part of her.  She could be angry about what Regina did to her (and that right there is, naturally, about 90% of the reason we didn't get this storyline,) not just for separating her from David or necessitating the separation from Emma, but for changing who she is in a way that she had no control over.  She could be angry with herself for not fighting back more during the curse, even if she understands, intellectually, that it's not her fault (there I go, blaming Regina again - what am I thinking?), for not making the instant change she wants to make back to just being Snow.  She could work on learning to reconcile the Mary Margaret parts of herself, trying to find the worth within her instead of just trying to push all those feelings down, coming out a fuller character for it.

Think of the hell Ginny could have played out of a storyline like that.  But of course, that would have meant the writers being interested in Snow as a character and, more significantly, acknowledging the damage and lasting effects Regina caused with the curse.  Sigh... This is why we can't have nice things.

[YaddaYadda]

25 minutes ago, angora said:

Until we (thankfully) started getting back to Snow in 5B, the only other time she really worked for me post-curse was during the Team Princess stuff in 2A - there, she got to do some cool and badass things (and Emma got to see it, which was also important.)  Plus, I feel like it's not a coincidence that 2A and 5B are the times I best like Snow's relationship with Emma.

5B had its moments. The reason 2A was even remotely interesting was because they allowed MM/Snow to take the lead. The EF was her home, she knew it in and out. And 2A didn't have Regina involved with Team Princesses, which allowed room for Emma and Snow to bond a little. 

I had high hopes for 5A, Emma as the Dark One, and for things to finally start happening with those two, especially after the eggnapping retcon, the breakdown in the relationship between Snow and Emma over it, and that was like twice in one season where we saw a rift be created between them.

Instead, the show is hellbent on Snow and Regina being what Emma and Snow should be. Did Snow ever discuss the CS relationship with Emma for instance? We got a walk and a talk between Snow and Regina about OQ (even though it was to try and explain why it wasn't cheating when it was cheating, and uncomfortable all around). No talk about Emma's magic going to the shits, or Emma being the Dark One, or trying to approach her daughter when she had isolated herself completely.

I have no expectations this season, so maybe they'll do something to pleasantly surprise me.

Edited July 10, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

Given their mindset, I really wonder how they ended up with that super short scene with Emma and Snow preparing for the dance in "The Price".  It's rare to have a scene where each character only has one line each.  Do they recognize on some level that Emma/Snow is important?  But clearly, they felt that it wasn't interesting enough to explore beyond a 15 second scene.  Was it a happy accident?   Did the writers for that episode decide to do that scene, but knew it wasn't relevant to the main plot so they couldn't go further with it?  Or was it conceived in the Writers' Room with everyone discussing?  Was it done to fill in time between commercial breaks? 

Even the reasoning behind the "I don't want to be Mary Margaret" anymore is baffling.  It's not actually character development when we still have no freak'in clue why she was all "I'm Mary Margaret" here before this.  

Edited July 10, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

47 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Thing is - cursed Mary Margaret was more badass than Mary Margaret later. She knocked out Jefferson with a freaking croquet mallet. So really, you could split Snow into three different people - Bandit Snow, Cursed MM, and Babymaker MM.

I think this is a case of the writers not actually watching their own show. They have a vague sense that Mary Margaret was a meek schoolteacher in twee sweaters, and they started writing her like that, forgetting that in season one she still had a lot of spirit and tried to stand up for herself and Emma, and in the first half of season two she didn't miss a step in reverting to Bandit!Snow mode when they were transported to the Enchanted Forest without going through a curse that turned her back into Snow. It was in late season two with the dark heart stuff that things started changing (and even there, she was off shooting arrows in the woods while listening to Joan Jett). Really, I think the main shift was in season 3, when we started getting flashback stories about Snow losing hope and having to be encouraged by others (yes, the character whose primary characteristic was hope) and in the present they were starting to force the friendship between Emma and Regina and apparently wanted Mary Margaret out of the way, so she got relegated to the "fussy mom" role for both of them. That's when present-day Mary Margaret started to be meek and fretting over everything. Ginny tries to give her spunk, but when the script has her saying lines and doing things that are anti-spunky, there's not much she can work with. I get the feeling that she created a headcanon about fears relating to having a second child after losing the first one to explain the shift. She tends to intensify the emotion when the kid is factored in, even in subtext. I can't imagine what it would be like to have created and played a character and then suddenly be getting scripts where the character is acting different and saying things that character would never say, with no clear motivation for the shift.

[Camera One]

It doesn't help that Snow (and Charming) seem to be written as an afterthought, after the main arcs and the stuff A&E are interested in, have already been determined.  They know she (and Charming) will need a centric or two, so they (or one or the other) are usually given two episodes per arc, where they do something which ends up being completely irrelevant.  Thus, the tacked on Snow-as-Mayor stuff in 4A, and then dropping it like a hot potato with no explanation in 4B.  The issues with Emma were also ignored after one episode (resolved in an off-screen phone call), no doubt since the Snow quota had been met.  Or two episodes leading to the sanding in 4B, and then the sanding is reversed immediately (we don't even get the joy of seeing Emma's journey in identifying her parents were off).  In 3B, Snow got to act as the idiot who believes the lady with the giant green emerald was a real midwife.  5B was the first time Snow got seemingly significant character movement with "I don't want to be Mary Margaret" anymore, but it was given one episode so felt completely out of left field.  Then, the entire rest of the season, Mary Margaret (and Charming) basically says exposition, stands around in the background and occasionally props Regina.

Out of all the talented actors on this show, I think this is the biggest waste of talent and the least rewarding role to play.  

Edited September 10, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think this is a case of the writers not actually watching their own show. They have a vague sense that Mary Margaret was a meek schoolteacher in twee sweaters, and they started writing her like that, forgetting that in season one she still had a lot of spirit and tried to stand up for herself and Emma, and in the first half of season two she didn't miss a step in reverting to Bandit!Snow mode when they were transported to the Enchanted Forest without going through a curse that turned her back into Snow. 

I think Cursed Mary Margaret's spunk in S1 was her beginning to revert back to Snow White becasue of Emma's presence. She seemed pretty meek in the Welcome to Storybrooke flashback, which is how I envisioned cursed MM. And in early S2, she seemed to have gone back to being Snow White. It was in the second half of the season that the writers started ruining Show's character with the stupid Dark Heart plot, and risking the lives of everyone to save Regina from the fail safe. Ginny's pregnancy in S3 may have had something to do with how bland they started writing her, and then they just kept going with it. 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

5B was the first time Snow got seemingly significant character movement with "I don't want to be Mary Margaret" anymore, but it was given one episode so felt completely out of left field.  

Lbr, the only reason for that was becasue they knew they were doing the Jekyll/Hyde split, and wanted to rehash Regina's enmity with Snow all over again in S6. 

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I can't imagine what it would be like to have created and played a character and then suddenly be getting scripts where the character is acting different and saying things that character would never say, with no clear motivation for the shift.

IKR? The writers created an interesting character in Bandit Snow in the earlier seasons. But they got bored with badass Snow and turned her into a bland self-righteous shadow of her former self. 

[Mathius]

So, A&E basically said that Snow and Regina's friendship is even stronger and tighter than Emma and Regina's.  And while we all complain about how forced, inorganic and character derailing that friendship is, the Snow and Regina friendship is ten times worse in that regard.

In their last scene in the season premiere, let me cite just how much coddling and/or worshipful lines Snow had toward Regina.

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Snow: I'm so sorry, Regina. I know it'll work out, though.

Quote

 

Regina: I was an awful stepmother. 

Snow: Regina, come on. That was the past.

 

Quote

 

Snow: And then I realized, while y... well, the Evil Queen was trying to kill me... that the only way I could stay alive was to never give up. You taught me how to have faith. You were the one who taught me that hope is a choice.

 

Quote

 

Regina: You know, I've been sitting here thinking about these new people and how pathetic they were for hiding in some horrible land so their stories didn't have to play out. And then I realized... that's exactly what I used to do.

Snow: [Chuckles] I don't remember you hiding from anything.

 

And then Snow links arms with Regina intimately and walks away with her.

I have no idea why they changed Snow and her relationship with Regina this dramatically, especially in a way where it's all on Snow to do the heavy lifting. Was it because of all the rabid ERs who sent Ginny hate and threats during Season 2 because the character she played was being so "mean" to Regina?  Or is it just because the writers love Regina that much and want all the characters to love her too, including (or especially) her biggest victims.

[RadioGirl27]

8 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Or is it just because the writers love Regina that much and want all the characters to love her too, including (or especially) her biggest victims.

This. A&E are the biggest Evil Regals out there. And their love for her has completely destroyed Snow and her relationship with Emma. What Emma and Snow had in Season 1 was fantastic. But now, Snow doesn't even seems to like Emma while acts as her stepmother's mother. It's sad.

[Mathius]

And as I noted in the spoiler discussion thread, her interactions with Regina is literally the ONLY ones she has besides with Charming (which have become bland) that they write on a frequent basis.  Emma, Henry, Hook, the side characters like the freaking Seven Dwarves themselves...they're lucky to ever receive anything with Snow these days.  It's pretty much proof that the writers don't like writing for Snow anymore unless it's to prop Regina.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Mathius

[tri4335]

20 minutes ago, Mathius said:

And as I noted in the spoiler discussion thread, her interactions with Regina is literally the ONLY ones she has besides with Charming (which have become bland) that they write on a frequent basis.  Emma, Henry, Hook, the side characters like the freaking Seven Dwarves themselves...they're lucky to ever receive anything with Snow these days.  It's pretty much proof that the writers don't like writing for Snow anymore unless it's to prop Regina.

I agree they only want to use Snow to prop Regina but Ginny is first billed of the show. They may not want to write for her but you can bet they HAVE to write for her.  Ginny did them a favor the last couple of seasons by being pregnant and doing Zootopia thus asking for a reduced schedule. It allowed them the ability to concentrate on their favorite but Ginny is the star and if she now wants to be back to full-time they will be required to write for her.  Disney loves, loves loves Ginny and she loves them. I expect to see more Snow but unfortunately it won't be the way us fans want it.  It will be meaty work for Ginny  but it will be with Regina their fave and not the logical scenes she should have with her daughter!

[Shanna Marie]

On 9/30/2016 at 11:43 AM, Mathius said:

I have no idea why they changed Snow and her relationship with Regina this dramatically, especially in a way where it's all on Snow to do the heavy lifting. Was it because of all the rabid ERs who sent Ginny hate and threats during Season 2 because the character she played was being so "mean" to Regina?  Or is it just because the writers love Regina that much and want all the characters to love her too, including (or especially) her biggest victims.

The annoying thing is that this is turned Snow into more of a cartoon character than even the cartoon version. They keep talking about fleshing out the fairy tale characters and making them more human, giving them shades of gray, but then they make them more black-and-white than the cartoon version. Cartoon movie Snow may have been silly, over-the-top good and naive, singing to birds and keeping house for dwarfs, but she never had to make up with her tormentor (and the Evil Queen was never shown to do anything but try to off Snow -- no murdering Snow's father or slaughtering villages). It's really hard to relate to a character who's so over-the-top goody-goody that she becomes friends with the person who murdered her father, who continued to side with the woman who murdered her mother even after learning the truth, and who separated her from her daughter for 28 years after trying to murder a newborn, even without that person apologizing for it. Regina's never even said she was wrong to do all that, and if she doesn't think it was wrong, what guarantee is there that she won't try again? It's a totally unrealistic reaction for Snow to have no ill feelings whatsoever, which makes her basically a cartoon, which makes her a less interesting character, to the point the writers can't write for her. How do you write conflict and drama surrounding a character we already know is okay with all the things Regina has done to her? Can you write her being angry or upset about anything less than murdering her father if she's friends with the person who did that?

[Camera One]

It's so ridiculous that she doesn't even feel like a real person.  Every time she talks to Regina, she feels like the mouthpiece of A&E.  And then all other times, she feels like a generator of random exposition.  

For example, other lines she had in the S6 premiere included "This is NOT your town!"  Do we even know how Snow feels about Storybrooke?  Does she feel like a de-facto leader even though she's not the Mayor?  Without any of that background, basically, the line was a way for Hyde to explain that Rumple gave the town to him.  

As I mentioned in the episode thread, they used Snow as the embodiment of hope to Regina, yet she seemed easily discouraged and completely lacking in hope when she told Charming "It's getting dark... it's not going to get any easier" when she was searching in the woods.  Her character is so ill-defined the Writers can have her say whatever depending on the situation.

And then later, the Writers had Snow realize that the Untold Stories people were scared, and she stands on a stump to entice them to come out, which is a good idea if it was developed but since Ginny was given the D plot, it lasted 1 minute and came out of nowhere, so just felt superficial.  

And then the super-analytical part of us can think... wow, that scene is such a reversal of the scene from the animated movie where Snow was scared in the forest at night where she felt surrounded by the darkness and creatures of ill intent!  And then we wonder, was that intentional?  

Edited October 2, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Snow is a terrible teacher. And why is she suddenly teaching physics? She was teaching biology in S4B when she wasn't building bird-houses. 

Did nobody teach the kids when Snow was running around solving crises instead of solving for "x"? 

Shooting bows and arrows is fun and all, but I hope the students did learn how to solve the equation, because neither Snow's classeoom instruction, nor the target practise illustrated that.

[Camera One]

That subplot was truly atrocious.  I wanted Snow to get more screentime but this is hitting rock bottom in terms of a thoughtless plotline (as in no intelligible thought went into it).  I sure hope Ginny enjoyed working with Karen David as a change, or this role would be incredibly frustrating.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Camera One

[tri4335]

I figure every week Ginny gets her script and screams in her head "are you f-ing kidding me!" and then proceeds to be the consummate professional she is and does her job.  I'm sure she enjoys getting paid, working with her spouse and having personal time to spend with her children but on a professional level she is not as fulfilled as she would like with this gig.

[Mathius]

Even if Ginny is a pro, her acting is clearly not as good and enthusiastic as it was during the first three seasons. And who can blame her?

This is why there'd better be a Zootopia TV show soon, Ginny deserves better.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

She definitely looked tired the whole episode.

[Delphi]

12 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

She definitely looked tired the whole episode.

Well I'd imagine to kids under two are to blame for that. 

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Delphi said:

Well I'd imagine to kids under two are to blame for that. 

I guess that's likely as anything.

Going back to Snow's teaching demonstration, I would've liked the outdoors teaching moment better, if it had been followed by a brief shot of the students back in the classroom, learning the physics behind archery. Otherwise it feels like they all got to play with bows and arrows in physics class, and that's it. I guess being in science, and having taught classes, it bothers me. But this is just the typical slapdash way everything is done in the Show. So, I shouldn't really feel bothered. 

Even Snow's comment about having Whale and Jekyll as science faculty made no sense either. Their brand of "science" is not going to help the Storybrooke kids pass the SATs. I wish the Show let the school syllabus reflect their fairytale background and actually included EF history, nautical navigation, etc.. But apparently people are actually using their Cursed degrees and going to college in the Real World. So the kids get a real world education, taught by people who have no idea what they're doing and have zero pedagogical training. 

[Camera One]

Yes, why didn't Snow become a physical education teacher instead if what she *really* wanted to do was to teach archery?  

They said they were going to explore who Snow White "really is" this season.  So who Snow White really is = someone who wants to spend their life teaching kids about Newton's Third Law of Motion which she supposedly learned from her Cursed memory?  Are you sure this isn't actually Mary Margaret?   So Snow's big realization this episode was she needed to what exactly?  Remember that she was good at archery?  So she could teach kids how to "solve for x"?  

I don't know what was worse about this subplot... the lack of any understanding of science, the lack of understanding of math, or the lack of understanding of teaching, or the lack of understanding of basic scriptwriting and character development.  I'm amazed multiple writers (from this episode and the one before) and the entire Writers' Room came up with such a ridiculous and nonsensical arc.  

Edited October 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Snow was back to being Mary Margaret this episode, to the point of completely missing the point of Jasmine's story. It flew right over her head, just like that physics lesson.

Quote

I don't know what was worse about this subplot... the lack of any understanding of science, the lack of understanding of math, or the lack of understanding of teaching, or the lack of understanding of basic scriptwriting and character development. 

The lack of care is so obvious. It feels like an intern with no writing experience (or knowledge of science or math) penned this sub-plot, and the writers okayed it without bothering to look over it.

[KAOS Agent]

What was Snow even teaching? Did anyone actually look at the equation on the board? It didn't even requiring solving for X. It was Fx = -Fy, -Fy = -3, Fx = ? What is there to solve? At least say that Fy = 3, so there's some kind of solving that gets the point across about an equal and opposite reaction. Those kids are really not the brightest bulbs if they couldn't figure out x. Surely there's some kind of teacher's pet who'd love to "solve" something so simple. 

Edited October 19, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

Didn't this episode take place all in one day (I don't recall a night or a change of clothes on anyone)? So Snow wrote something on the board and said it out loud, then gave a test, graded it, despaired of her students not mastering the material, and came up with an alternate lesson, all in one day? And since this looked to be high school, wouldn't she have just had them for one class period, so when was she able to grade the tests, have her chat with Jasmine, and then come up with a new lesson plan to teach?

If she were remembering who she really is, she would be stepping up to take leadership of the town and organize a defense against potential dangers from the Untold Stories gang, since she should be the queen of the kingdom that got turned into this town, and Regina's clearly not up to really doing much of anything while she's distracted by her other half and not operating at full strength.

[Camera One]

Maybe these are just older elementary school students, and she's teaching them all the subjects?  That would make more sense than her being a high school physics teacher.  

I was wondering about that equation on the board myself, since there was no algebra needed, as KAOSAgent pointed out.  The biggest laugh was when she "explained" during her bow and arrow demonstration.  "That's the action.  And that's the reaction."  Uh... care to elaborate on that?  Which action?  Pulling the bow back?  The arrow rushing forward?  Of course Jasmine is there grinning like the Cheshire Cat since she has no idea what Snow is talking about either.  Neither do the kids.  Neither do the clueless writers so I guess it's just ignorance all 'round.   I wonder if the Writers wrote the line "solve for X" and the set decorators had to figure out what to write on the board.

Meanwhile, no parent complaints that their children might be in mortal danger with The Evil Queen in town and their teacher being Target #1?  And seriously Jasmine, get assigned to a different teacher if you want to be alive when Aladdin is found.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

Quote

Didn't this episode take place all in one day (I don't recall a night or a change of clothes on anyone)? So Snow wrote something on the board and said it out loud, then gave a test, graded it, despaired of her students not mastering the material, and came up with an alternate lesson, all in one day? And since this looked to be high school, wouldn't she have just had them for one class period, so when was she able to grade the tests, have her chat with Jasmine, and then come up with a new lesson plan to teach?

 

It did take place in one school day, but I'm not sure those were high schoolers. It seemed like Jasmine and Snow were looking at the grades during a lunch recess, and I think most schools stop having recess by high school, so maybe they were older middle schoolers. But still, Snow taught them a lesson in the morning...let's say 9:00am. She then gave them a quiz on her first day and graded it a few hours later at lunch. And she's shocked that her lesson didn't stick? Maybe, Snow, it's because you quizzed them on something you literally just taught them a few hours ago! 

Maybe Snow should focus on becoming the principal. Teaching doesn't seem to be her strong suit, but at least she'd have a large leadership role and could still have a positive impact on the educational system in Storybrooke. But Storybrooke is so small anyways and off the normal world grid, do they even have to worry about teaching standards and dealing with government laws like No Child Left Behind? We've officially put more thought into this story line than the writers have.

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Meanwhile, no parent complaints that their children might be in mortal danger with The Evil Queen in town and their teacher being Target #1?  And seriously Jasmine, get assigned to a different teacher if you want to be alive when Aladdin is found.

 

They should have an episode where they practice a villain drill. Instead of a fire drill, the kids have to practice pushing all the furniture up against the door and everyone is given a little version of that magical weapon Dr. Jekyll invented. But of course the magical laws on this show are so ill-defined that the villain or monster could just make them all fall asleep with the swish of their hand, or it could be a fire-breathing dragon that burns the whole school down, or it could be the Evil Queen just mwuahaha-ing in the hallways.

Either way, with a show like this, how are the writers not jumping at the opportunity for writing this kind of scenario? It shows the mishmash of our real world and the fairy tale world, but also shows that these characters aren't idiots for waltzing around like there isn't a psychopathic villain in town that could kill them at any second. Throwing in a scene like that acknowledges that yes, there is a villain in town and they're aware of it, but it's not stopping them from having their normal everyday routines.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Isn't it early to teach those kids physics though? I didn't do that stuff until I hit high school. 

[Shanna Marie]

Those kids were definitely past sixth grade, and at that point, they're probably changing classes, with teachers teaching single subjects. Even if it is a more elementary setting, you wouldn't be teaching the same subject all day. In my elementary classes, we had defined times for each subject, so you still wouldn't have had a lesson on something and then a test on that same thing in the morning and then returned to that subject in the afternoon. You'd have had a lesson one day, some homework to reinforce it, maybe a quiz the next day, and then maybe a new lesson the day after that when the teacher realized it hadn't sunk in. I've never had a teacher give a lecture and then immediately give a test on that lecture.

[orza]

Some smalltown schools only have one or two teachers per grade who teach all subjects, even at the high school level. Those kids were maybe middle school age at the most. When I was in school I had a single classroom teacher up through 10th grade. We also sometimes had immediate pop quizzes on things we had just covered. I see no problem with having a lesson and quiz first thing in the morning and getting the graded results back in the afternoon if two people are grading during lunch and recess. However, the show is not a documentary so the Storybrook school does not need to follow real-world standards and practices.

[InsertWordHere]

It's possible the lower population of Storybrooke (even though it's supposed to include entire kingdoms and now the children from the Land or Untold Stories) makes it so each grade level has just one teacher, but that would mean Snow teaches multiple subjects and wouldn't be spending the whole day on physics. My Catholic grade school had one teacher per class until eighth grade, but we still had subjects divided into different periods of the day and didn't spend all day on one subject. 

[Curio]

Maybe they were 7th or 8th graders with block schedules? Who knows, the writers didn't put much thought into it, so neither should we. I don't even know why Snow wants to be a teacher. Does she want to work 60 hours a week but only get paid for 40? If they're realistic about this plot, Snow should be grading papers at midnight or working weekends. Whoever came up with Snow's story for this season probably doesn't have any friends or family members who are teachers right now, because A) They don't have a strong grasp on what a teacher's workday looks like, and B) Teaching is a terrible field to be in right now. It might be the case where some states are better than others, but I have several family members who are teachers right now and they all say the same thing: "Don't get into teaching."

2 minutes ago, orza said:

I see no problem with having a lesson and quiz first thing in the morning and getting the graded results back in the afternoon if two people are grading during lunch and recess.However, the show is not a documentary so the Storybrook school does not need to follow real-world standards and practices.

 

I mean, there's technically nothing wrong with doing that, but this was Snow's first day back as a teacher. Did she really think she was starting off on the right foot by being that teacher who gives pop quizzes on the first day? She didn't want to ease them in? She'll have a reputation now for being the teacher who always gives pop quizzes.

[orza]

Storybrook is a fictional town existing in a magic bubble. It doesn't have to be an accurate depiction of our real world. In fact, it shouldn't be that at all. Fairy tale characters living in their own little world should not be just like my neighbors. I can stand in my front yard or go to the grocery store to see that.

The teacher C plot was mostly a way to introduce Jasmine and get her interacting with the main characters. Snow going back to teaching a way to do that.

[Mari]

True, @orza.

 However, when things are clearly not thought out or just ridiculous, it's harder to suspend disbelief.  The physics lesson was not remotely for the age group she was teaching before, and was silly, besides.  They could easily have had middle school teacher Snow giving an archery lesson, which would work for Enchanted Forest classes as well as standard North American classes, and introduced Jasmine the same way, only with considerable less disgust from a lot of the audience.

 

How little thought the writers put into it was insulting to the audience as well as the character.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Mari
Typos are evil.

[orza]

Well, I don't feel in any way insulted. I first learned about Newton's third law of motion in the fifth grade. The kids I watch the show with were not in any way alienated or confused because the classroom scene was marginally different from what they are used to. This is not some egregious factual error, just a simplification of school to move the story along. This show is also in syndication in other parts of the world with different school systems so it doesn't need to be thoroughly Americanized in all the minor details.

[Rumsy4]

The writers wanted Snow to go back to teaching as a way to introduce Jasmine, but wanted to make the point that she wasn't Mary Margaret again. Hence the clunky archery lesson to highlight the fact that this was still "Snow White". 

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They could easily have had middle school teacher Snow giving an archery lesson, which would work for Enchanted Forest classes as well as standard North American classes, and introduced Jasmine the same way, only with considerable less disgust from a lot of the audience.

I agree. This would have underscored the fact that Snow was still "badass" without the nonsensical physics lesson. It would have also showcased the duality of Storybrooke.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Rumsy4

[angora]

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I mean, there's technically nothing wrong with doing that, but this was Snow's first day back as a teacher. Did she really think she was starting off on the right foot by being that teacher who gives pop quizzes on the first day? She didn't want to ease them in? She'll have a reputation now for being the teacher who always gives pop quizzes.

Especially since the kids from the Land of Untold Stories just got there and have likely never been in a Land Without Magic-style classroom before.  Depending on their kingdom/class, they might not have had any formal schooling.

Doing physics with that age group didn't bother me.  Particularly in middle school, classes tend to touch on lots of things within their subject (ie, science class does a bit of chemistry, a bit of biology, a bit of physics, a bit of environmental science,) and in general, as you get older, you circle back and cover stuff you've already learned more in-depth.  And Snow was hardly getting in very deep with it; her "solve for X" didn't require any calculations, just taking a number from one of her equations and slotting it into another.

What DOES bother me, though, is how bad the lesson was.  The whole "Okay, I've recited Newton's Third Law to you; who's ready to do this equation I haven't explained how to solve?" thing was so ridiculous that it undermined the point of the plot.  You can't say the problem is that she's "doing what she always did" and it isn't working anymore because she's Snow instead of Mary Margaret, because I can't believe that would've worked for Mary Margaret.  I can't believe it'd be an effective teaching method for anyone.

[Mari]

Which is the other problem I had with it.

Can't Snow/Mary Margaret be good at anything except archery and cheerleading Regina?  We've already been shown she's not a particularly gifted or natural mother,  princess/queen/mayor, strategist . . . 

It was yet another thing the show decided to make sure we saw her fail at.  Yay?

If it had been the archery lesson, they wouldn't have been able to have that very special moment where Mary Margaret/Snow wasn't able to understand what she was doing wrong, and the person who should have no down load education or teaching experience was able to tell her.