Mary Margaret: Is Snow White Again?

[stealinghome]

See, I've entered a zen state where I don't even hate any of the characters--including Regina and Neal, my two least favorites. I just hate the writers. I pretty uniformly hate the writing for the characters, and the show's attitude toward the characters, but the characters themselves--particularly Regina and Snow (RIP Bandit Snow, how little we knew ye), but including almost everyone else--have become so schizo and unrealistic that I find I can't care about them, you know? It would be like, I don't know, trying to hate a box of noodles. There's just not enough there anymore to be able to hate. Apathy has become the name of the game. (As opposed to the writing, which I will never, ever stop despising.)

 

Pretty much the only character I still like for himself is Charming, and I'm just waiting for the writers to fuck him up. They've messed everyone else up at this point, so he's got to be next in line.

Edited August 16, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

A lot of people watch for the characters, though. There are characters you love and love to hate. Even though I dislike a character with intensity, sometimes it has the opposite effect - you wonder if they'll get better or worse, so you keep watching even when they get the spotlight. As FabulousTater said, crappy writing goes in, crappy characters come out. If a character did something stupid once, I could blame the writing. But when a character routinely and habitually does stupid stuff, it's accountable to both the writing and the character.

 

In Snow's case, I see her character flaws as real flaws. It's stuff I just can't handwave, because it happens over and over. She has developed an entire personality that was created by the crappy writing, and she's acted inside that personality ever since. It has become her character. She and Regina have the same problem going here. Their characters morphed into completely different ones after S1, and they've acted the same way ever since.

Edited August 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

I can see what you're saying @stealinghome, but for me to keep watching something I have to feel something about it. Even if it's just hate watch. A zen attitude or general apathy would have me question why I even bother because then it would be like watching an actual box of noodles, you know. (hell, I don't think I'd even remember it was on TV if I was that apathetic about the characters). 

 

Though there is something to be said for watching sexy "boxes of noodles"... at some point in s3 I tried really hard to watch only for the pretty. But I'll be damned if I can't keep my brain from yelling "bloody murder" at every inconsistency and the relentless character BS. Even drunk watching became a chore because it was so bad.

Edited August 16, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

Charming wasn't saying that killing Cora was wrong (in fact, he point-blank tells Snow that he has no problem with it). What he said was that killing Cora in anger/vengeance wasn't right *for Snow* because she wouldn't be able to live with herself afterward. Which, well, he was entirely right, so it's hard for me to judge him for saying that.

Then it would have been really nice if at any point after the fact he'd ever said that even if she felt bad, she'd saved a lot of people. Even if Snow didn't want to hear it and wouldn't have been receptive, someone needed to point out that what Snow did had been good for all of them, like when Henry was spouting his "Heroes don't kill people!" nonsense, David should have told him that sometimes heroes do have to kill people when those people are putting others in danger, and Snow killing Cora had saved the entire town while also saving Rumple's life. If Henry wanted his grandfather to live (something he'd been campaigning for) and didn't want the whole town to be under the rule of a cruel and powerful sorceress, someone had to take out Cora. Really, the town should have thrown Snow a damn parade, and yes, that would have made her feel guiltier, but at least there would have been an objective statement that even though she felt crappy, she'd done a good thing, and the fact that she didn't gleefully relish the killing was what made her different from non heroes.

 

The other problem is that Snow comes across as a very unrealistic person for being so forgiving towards Regina when it comes to Emma.

That's a broader problem of the writers somehow having decided that the good guys aren't allowed to actually be human and have normal human reactions to the bad things that happen to them. Good guys don't get to be hurt or angry or resent anyone. They have to forgive instantly and be best buddies with the people who harmed them. They can only say what most of us would be thinking or feeling when they're under some evil supernatural influence that brings out the worst in them. No wonder so many people identify with the villains. Being a good guy is no fun. The weird thing is, season one Bandit Snow wasn't that way. She fought battles, and I'm pretty sure those weren't Nerf arrows. She got angry when she was wronged. She still tried to see the good in people and gave them the benefit of the doubt, but she'd deal with them if that didn't work. It was just somewhere in season two that suddenly no one was allowed to criticize Regina and the heroes had to live up to ridiculous standards or else they were just as bad as Regina.

[stealinghome]

It was just somewhere in season two that suddenly no one was allowed to criticize Regina and the heroes had to live up to ridiculous standards or else they were just as bad as Regina.

Yeah, the show's morality took a really wonky left turn in Season 2 and hasn't come back since. And Snow has definitely suffered the most for it (since she's often made to be the mouthpiece for the stupid).

[Jean]

 

The writers want to write a deeper character story, and they have Ginnifer Goodwin, who is this awesome actress.  The easiest way (but not the best way) to give her *something* meaty to play as an actress, and an actual arc, is to give Snow an emotional dilemma/internal battle as to what should be done with Regina.  Thus, they gave her the scene with Snow and Regina at the prison cell.  Unfortunately, the writers are unable to see and/or they don't care, that what they are writing makes Snow come off as idiotic, naive, and dumb.  As Shanna Marie said really eloquently above, Snow has the potential to be a really complex character and there were so many avenues to pursue which would give Goodwin a real chance to shine WITHOUT destroying Snow's character.  But these writers always choose the easier route for them, because they don't want to devote the screentime to it.

 

I don't think they choose the easier route when it comes to Snow and Woegina. They've devoted and will probably continue to devote endless screentime to Woegina/Snow. That gets more play than anything on the show. It's actually the crux of the show even in S1. The problem is they view and write the show through a "Woegina is the biggest saint victim ever" filter post S1. I honestly think they do love Snow and see Ginny as their 2nd lead. She gets plenty of what I call "emmy bait material" if this wasn't a crappy fantasy genre show. It's just that she takes a second seat to their hard-on for the Mary Sue Victim Saint. All their interviews indicatate that whenever Snow gives one of her vomit inducing speeches about heroes or kisses Woegina's ass, they see it as a "Go Snow! Preach it girl" moment. Snow and mini Snow (aka Henry) are like A&E's mouthpiece. That's probably why the 3 characters I would guess they love the most, Woegina, Snow and Henry, are the most annoying twits to ever hit the tv.

 

I bet Rumple would get that way too except Robert's talent surpasses the 2 ladies and his screentime is limited. That too I think is on Robert. It must be in his contract to limit his work time because otherwise I can see them putting him front and center. Charming and Belle are just the requisite love interests for the main characters whose only purpose is to serve said character. Emma and Hook comes off like a network mandate. You know the pretty blonde kick ass "heroine" that network execs need before they let a pilot/series go through and Hook is the resident sexy bad boy. Also I'm guessing that's why S1 had that procedural format. That's another popular network view that clearly A&E don't like or do. They do soap operas.

 

[ShadowFacts]

 

All their interviews indicatate that whenever Snow gives one of her vomit inducing speeches about heroes or kisses Woegina's ass, they see it as a "Go Snow! Preach it girl" moment. Snow and mini Snow (aka Henry) are like A&E's mouthpiece. That's probably why the 3 characters I would guess they love the most, Woegina, Snow and Henry, are the most annoying twits to ever hit the tv.

 

Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh.  I do pretty much cringe and tune out with all 3 of them. 

[KAOS Agent]

I think with Snow in particular a big problem is that she's never been allowed to have an emotional breakdown over everything that's happened. You get occasional moments where she cries about a specific thing like not knowing how to comfort Emma in "Nasty Habits" because she was never her mother, but we've never seen it all just hit her and show her trying to deal with the overwhelming pain that has to exist from all this crap. Regina cries every fifteen seconds to remind us of how terrible her life has been, but Snow doesn't get that opportunity and it does make her seem less human. It puts me in this position where I don't have a clue what Snow is thinking because her actions don't make sense based on the history I've seen on the show.  Somewhere they've got to show the emotional turmoil, let the pain and anger and yes, hate come out.

 

I'd say that there is potential for her to start to fully realize everything she lost when she starts actually being a mother to Baby Snowflake, but I doubt the writers are interested in any of that. It would be so nice to see Snow understand that having a do over baby really doesn't fix the feelings she's had about not getting to be a mommy or having missed Emma's firsts. Or that her inability to connect with Emma isn't just a result of not knowing how to be a mother. This show needs to have Snow recognize how terrible it all was and confront Regina about it. It needs to happen to redeem Snow's character and also to finally force Regina into some self-awareness if they want Regina to be redeemed as well. If the Snow/Regina relationship is what the writers consider the main dynamic in the show, they absolutely have to address all the horror that Regina has inflicted on Snow. And it can't be Regina saying it's complicated and Snow shrugging it all off because she was a brat. Sorry, but fuck the writers for that conversation in "Bleeding Through" because I will never get over how sick it is that Snow apologized again to Regina and accepted some blame for the endless torment Regina has forced on Snow and her completely innocent daughter. Yeah Snow, Regina is such a victim of your evil ways. I have so much hate for that conversation.

[KAOS Agent]

Oh look back to back posts, but since my last one was a couple months ago, I feel justified in bumping this up. Anyway, it was interesting to have Archie tell Snow that it's not healthy to cling to the baby, since it's obviously very true. However, I am wondering just how much of a replacement baby Snowflake really is. How much of it is it that Snow's really only so obsessed with her new baby because she missed out on with Emma? Is it really about her having Baby Snowflake or just Snow's need to have a baby in general? I think the show wants us to see it's a psychological thing about not losing another baby (totally understandable), but there have been other things that lead me to believe that Snow is just obsessed with having/raising a baby in general and it isn't really about Snowflake at all. He isn't special to her because he's Snowflake, he's special because he's a baby she gets to keep. How long will it take for her to acknowledge that what she lost with Emma cannot be made up for with another baby? He's his own person and he deserves to have attention showered on him because of who he is, not who he is replacing.

[Dani-Ellie]

That's why "baby = Band-Aid" always made me leery from the moment it was brought up. It's not healthy for anyone, from Emma to Snow to the baby.

[shapeshifter]

...it was interesting to have Archie tell Snow that it's not healthy to cling to the baby, since it's obviously very true....

See my comment/rant about this here: forums.previously.tv/topic/16218-s04e03-rocky-road/page-3#entry463233 (last paragraph of post). Edited October 13, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Rumsy4]

See my comment/rant about this here: forums.previously.tv/topic/16218-s04e03-rocky-road/page-3#entry463233 (last paragraph of post).

Unsolicited advice can be dumb and annoying, but in the narrative of the Show, it's clear that Snow's having severe anxiety/issues because of what happened not only with Emma, but even Zelena and Baby Snoflake. Could Archie have worded it better? Maybe... But he wasn't wrong.

[Camera One]

I have set my bar very very low at this point, but I was so happy that Archie used Emma in his psychological advice to Snow, and that gave Ginnifer a chance to actually use her acting talent.  I think what KAOSAgent suggested could be a good character arc for Snow.  She seems to be using the new baby to mask some of the pain she is still feeling over losing Emma and she could be traumatized over having a baby ripped from her arms both times she has given birth.  As far as she is concerned, the Snow Queen could be after the baby too.  

Edited October 13, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

As one who enjoys tearing into Snow and her non existent relationship with Emma, I actually felt sorry for her after that "talk" with Archie.  He hit the nail on the head and we're all justified in calling him Do-Over.  I thought Ginny's acting in that scene was really on point, Snow looked in the last shot was kind of heart breaking.  Her first born was taken from her and she didn't exactly have the option to be able to find her since she didn't even remember she had her.  She can't really mother her because Emma is fiercely independent, so I think she needs to just be her friend instead of her mother and let time be her other friend on this one.  And I don't believe they said what would have happened to the baby if Zelena had been successful with her plan.  I sort of understand her.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I have to say that I really understand where Snow is coming from on this. With her track record of a) having children stolen/forcibly separated from her (one would have died if he hadn't been saved, one was separated from her for 28 years and had a crap childhood) and b) having people she loves endangered and nearly die (or flat-out die) on a near-daily basis? In her shoes, I probably wouldn't want to put Snowflake down, either, let I away for two seconds and look back and he's been kidnapped or killed or disappeared. It's not healthy, but it is realistic, and I like that the show is getting at both sides of that.

[Dianthus]

One thing I'd like to see: as part of trying to connect with Emma, maybe Snow could turn to Hook first, considering his insight into what makes Emma tick (thanks to his own painful childhood abandonment issues). It's two birds with one stone, really. She gets closer to both her daughter and potential son-in-law.

[Dianthus]

XrystalPond: You're prob'ly right. It's kinda sad how cynical we've all become.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Dianthus

[JFSurvivor]

When Mary Margaret gets her new baby I feel like she went from this awesome fairy-tale hero-person to being kind of a jerk. I understand that she missed out a lot with Emma but come on! I think she needs some serious therapy with Dr. Hopper. I also feel like Emma is completely justified in her feelings of frustration or at least I interpret her as being frustrated about this whole baby business. Her parents were doing what they thought was best but even when parents do what they think is best there will be consequences and they need to face them. 

 

I know I may be talking this show too seriously but sometimes it's fun to escape the real world and get lost in a TV show. 

 

Last thing: I feel like Mary Margaret and a lot of the characters have lost their fairy tale-ness. If that makes any sense. Mary Margaret doesn't feel like snow white, Regina doesn't feel like the evil queen (although I love what they have done with her character). ANd I miss Red. Does anyone else agree?  

[Souris]

There's already a thread for the character:

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/4807-snow-white-the-princess-bandit/

[MedievalGirl]

For almost the entire first season of Once I was pregnant and that first summer with a new baby I watched a hell of a lot of this show to get me through some difficult post-partum issues. So I'm feeling a bit protective of new mom Snow. It sucks to have a newborn, it sucks learning to relate to your older children in a new way, it sucks to have everything that made you cool fall away. All that suckage happened without anyone trying to kill or kidnap my babies. I can't image how much more snippy I'd be if they had. When my first kid was a newborn I remember feeding her in the middle of the night and then being afraid to go back to bed because I though I'd trip and bump her head on the door frame. This was the kid I adopted to it was just sleep deprivation and not all the new mom hormones making me paranoid. I would have glared and yelled had anyone handed me a boiling baby bottle or dropped a street lamp on my husband. (Actually, the day we brought our daughter home my had to go back to the hospital (on New Year's Eve) for appendicitis. I did more than glare and yell.)

Sorry for oversharing. I still love Snow. She is still awesome and beautiful. Babies screw up your life. I have faith she'll figure it out or I'll write a fanfic where she does. DAMNIT!

Edited November 21, 2014 by MedievalGirl

[Rumsy4]

The problem is Snow hasn't tried to relate to Emma any way at all. So, I am not much inclined to excuse her yelling. ;-)

[BelovedMaeve]

I love the whole Charming Family (the ladies a bit more then Charming but he's close). I think neither Snow nor Emma has been really able to express the level of grief they've had for the various tragedies that have happened in their lives (in favor of seeing every single facet of Regina's) and I think this has severely affected the level of emotional expressiveness (or likability if you will) that they've been allowed. I miss season one Snow very, very badly. I adored that woman. I loved her sweetness, her spunkiness, her heart, and her bravery.  It's troubling to realize that the writers, Adam, and Eddie, don't realize/care about how much the Charming family, particularly Snow, have been portrayed. The frustration is exacerbated by the fact that Ginny is an accomplished actress and has the range to do so much more (even as sleep-deprived as she may be). It's deeply regrettable and if mused on for too long, infuriating. 

 

[KAOS Agent]

Snow is done no favors by the plot driven action on this show. When asked about the Charmings relationship with Emma, the showrunners are all shocked that anyone would think it's anything other than that of a loving family. The problem is that we are rarely shown that part of the relationship. We don't get Emma/Snow conversations like we got in Season 1. We don't see them bond. Instead, we get a bunch of plot dictated drama for which we never see any resolution. So we have Echo Cave which should have been devastating in terms of its consequences (that's the whole reason Pan wanted them there!) and we get nothing. Or Snow is suddenly terrified of Emma and has massive parenting fail, but we can't focus on the real issues surrounding that because the plot needs to move forward, so we'll hug and smile and it's all fixed. You can't show me all the painful and bad moments in a relationship without showing me the good ones as well.

 

Don't even get me started on how instead of racing as fast as possible to reach Emma before she does something rash (something that was spurred by Snow's own reaction and for which she was supposed to be feeling immense guilt), Snow strolls along and props Regina and her adulterous affair with Robin Hood. What that shows me is that Snow cares more about Regina's problems than her own daughter. At that point, Snow wasn't even displaying any worry about Emma. There was zero urgency to find her. It was the most ridiculously placed conversation. How stupid can the writers be not to see how off that whole thing was? 

[Camera One]

Don't even get me started on how instead of racing as fast as possible to reach Emma before she does something rash (something that was spurred by Snow's own reaction and for which she was supposed to be feeling immense guilt), Snow strolls along and props Regina and her adulterous affair with Robin Hood. What that shows me is that Snow cares more about Regina's problems than her own daughter.

 

Well, what it shows me is how dumb the writers are to insert that scene with so little thought about its placement and the impact on plot and characters.  

[KAOS Agent]

Which was my point? The issue is that I can watch that and blame the writers because I get that they are clearly lacking someone to go through and point out how stupid that scene was there, but that's not supposed to be my take away. I shouldn't have to analyze their writing failures to know that Snow doesn't care more about Regina than Emma. I watch what they are showing me onscreen - Snow propping Regina instead of rushing to help Emma - and that settles in (even if only subconsciously) as more failure by Snow. It's canon. Snow stopped to coddle Regina rather than help Emma.

[Camera One]

The writers' other takeaway is that Emma doesn't mind and probably agrees, since she wants to be Regina's friend too.

[KAOS Agent]

It seems to me that Emma told Snow to stay away from married men and that if it felt wrong, it probably was. That was good advice from a friend. And it would most likely be the same advice Emma would give to Regina. Unless and until Robin ends things permanently with Marian (not just hooking up with Regina while Marian's on ice), Emma would tell her to stay away from the married man. Emma didn't judge Mary Margaret for continuing her affair, but she also wasn't giving her false hope that it would all work out. Snow telling Regina to go for it with Robin was just generally bad advice. Even bringing up her own experience with David was stupid because in the end, she broke it off with him. If not for the curse breaking and David and Snow getting their memories back, Mary Margaret would not have gotten a happily ever after with David Nolan. In my opinion, Snow is not helping Regina in this situation. In fact, she may be making it worse. The part where her daughter could have died while she was imparting this sage advice just makes it all the worse.

[BelovedMaeve]

You won't get an argument from me that the conversation with Regina was horribly placed. At least they had Snow tracking Emma at the time but that seemed to be an afterthought. One thing I appreciate about Ginny is despite certain dialogue and set-ups (like the stupid conversation(s) between Regina and Snow), she conveys a lot of love for Emma. It's a lot of little things, like when Emma was trying to figure out the map in Neverland, what was it that was said on the TWOP forum - shining balls of love from their eyes? Something like that. It's the way she crowed over the video and had eyes only for a glimpse of her teenage daughter when Emma was trying to tell them about the Snow Queen. it's the way she took pictures on Emma before her date with Hook, gazing at it with a loving smile on her face. It was the way she bounced, bounced on the seat cushion when asking about her date. And (I'm sure I'll get flack for this) it was in the scene with the lamp post. After she barked at Emma, she actually looked at her face (and a huge kudos here for Jennifer because she managed a look of child-like terror and grief that was heart-rending), took a deep breath, and repeated her daughter's name more calmly.  Was her initial reaction great? No, but it literally took her less then a second to realize it and try to rectify it.

I won't even touch the conversation that Snow had with Regina. That was such an obvious ploy by the writers to sanctify the horrible, horrible double standard being displayed that I have no words to express my disgust. One thing they have managed to do during the last three years is to despise Regina. Probably not their intent but, there it is.

[Rumsy4]

This episode did no favors to Snow. She's such a hypocrite! She was okay with sacrificing everyone's lives, including her husband, daughter, and grandson, on the off-chance of saving Regina, but when Regina is one of those multiple lives in the balance, she suddenly makes the opposite choice.

Also, now she needs Emma's magic so she can save their asses again, while she was totally okay with it being gone when she was afraid it might hurt her precious son and husband. And what's with her being all judgey at Elsa? She has chosen David and/or Regina over the lives of her subjects so many times!

[Camera One]

That was just horrendous.  If they wanted to slowly change Snow's mindset, then develop it, but it was pretty much a throwaway to increase the tension, while destroying Snow's character at the same time, which is the writers' MO these days.  So are they saying Snow is now pragmatic and no longer has blind hope?  Or is it just another opportunity for Regina to influence Snow and Charming (second episode where they had to take Regina's advice since they were unable to see it themselves).  

 

The only slight variation on this scenario that I can see is that Anna isn't about to die, as far as they know, and the search for her could resume AFTER everyone in town is saved.  But the way it was framed basically allowed Regina to point out that Snow and Charming were not real leaders, which was yet another common criticism of those characters from 2B.  So the writers acknowledge that Snow and Charming suck and no more time needs to be spent.  Who knows, maybe they thought they were being clever by having a call-back to the 2B finale.  

[KingOfHearts]

Whatever Regina says, Snow does. In 4x08 she changed her mind about Emma losing her powers once Regina put her two cents in. Now when Regina says "Let Anna die!" she's all for it. She revolves her life around the woman who has repeatedly tried to kill her and her family. The Evil Queen says jump, Snow White asks how high. Welcome to Once, where nothing is as it should be and everything is how it should not be.

Edited December 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

It's absolutely criminal how they've wasted Ginny's talent and utterly destroyed Snow. She's their best female actress and they've relegated Snow to Belle status. Wait no, Belle is better off than her. At least Rumple does love Belle as much as he's able to. Even with the absolute crap they give her she still puts in her best efforts. At times I've felt like Robert's disengaged onscreen, but his talent gives him a lot of cushion. I've never felt like Ginny was sleepwalking through any scene. Besides Robert, no one else conveys emotions with the eyes as well as she does. And she doesn't need to make exaggerated faces or need polar opposite emotions, or huge look at me moments written in to work a story.

When I was watching S1, I saw Snow as the protagonist and main heroine. She was the heart of the show. This show completely lost its emotions when Snow was wrecked. And I believe A&E knew that or else they wouldn't bother working overtime to use her as their puppet to elevate the Cult of St. Woegina. I don't think it's a coincidence that the moment Snow was bled dry by the leech, Once lost its soul.

Now the only thing I can takeaway from the show are ridiculous things like, well at least the last shot of 4x09 was Snow and Charming. And what a good shot it was. I'm giving kudos to the director cause I refuse to give any credit to this merry band of hacks.

[Serena]

When Snow was like "yes, we should let Anna die and use the necklace!" I was so incredulous I thought to myself, "um, is this supposed to be the effects of the curse slowly taking hold? Is this gonna be a gradual thing instead of BAM!?"

But alas, it was not.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow is actually starting to rival Regina for the delusional biggest victim award. I still can’t believe the show turned my favorite season 1 relationship into this.

Snow's character has probably changed more than any other on the show, and not in a good or organic way. In the Pilot, Snow points a sword at Regina and says "She's nothing more than an evil witch!" Now Regina sleeps with a married man and she cheers her on. In Season 2, she fiercely protects Emma and yells "Back away from my daughter!" and in 3A she decides her daughter isn't worth fighting for. Bipolar writing here, folks.

 

I don't know where Snow went from courageous bandit to selfish victim, but it was sudden and painful. Probably with the "Dark Heart" business.

Edited January 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

This. I think it's extremely hard for Snow to fathom just how hard Emma had it. She may liken it to her time on the run, and while being on the run I'm sure is difficult, it's not an entire lifetime of being ignored, neglected, and unwanted. It's not watching little girl after little girl get placed with a family while all those prospective parents skim her over. It's not being shuffled from place to place so frequently that I'm sure it just became easier to stop even trying to make friends. It's not having absolutely no one to turn to, no one to help you. Snow was only completely on her own what, one or two nights before Red found her in her barn? Emma spent far longer than that on the streets all by herself.

 

I'm pretty sure it was more than difficult.  Having a full year or more of someone constantly trying to track you down and kill you would be traumatic in the extreme.  So is a childhood where your mother died and you lived with the knowledge that you could have saved her but you didn't.  And then following her father around and around as he toured the kingdom constantly.  

 

I agree what Emma went through in her childhood was horrible and sad, and real-world and difficult for Snow to relate to.  But I think both of their stories are equally sad for different reasons and it's hard for me to rate which is more or less bearable.  I like both characters (despite the horrendous writing and the wish for them to interact more).  I don't think I could care about a show much if I hated any of the main characters, or worse, if I hated more than one of them.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm not saying Snow's childhood was easy. All I'm saying is that the situations are not equivalent.

[KAOS Agent]

I dislike when the show tries to equate Emma's experience with Snow's because they are completely different. Even something simple like in "Quite a Common Fairy" when Snow says she knows what it's like not to have a home too sets me off. What bothered me there is that Snow didn't have a home for a brief period of her life and it affected her strongly because she knew what she was missing. She doesn't have a clue what it's like to never have had a home. Snow's experience was traumatic because of what she'd lost, Emma's trauma comes from her endless and fruitless search to find a home. They are both upsetting, but they stem from two very different and not comparable experiences. It was meant to show some common ground, but I'm not entirely sure that Snow grasped that Emma's homes have always been like that empty treehouse.

 

Poor Snow has just been thrown under the bus by the writers. And maybe some of that can be laid at the feet of Ginny's pregnancy where they gave her a lot of character discussions so she could be sitting and since her character had no plot line outside of Baby Snowflake, she ended up a prop to Regina, an idiot with regards to Zelena and was randomly judgey, bitchy, scared or supportive of Emma.

Edited January 7, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow may have felt rejection from Regina, but she never doubted who she was or her own self-worth.

Well... that's not entirely true. They did a whole episode about that - Lost Girl flashbacks.

 

I think comparing Snow and Emma is apples and oranges. They're pains are different, and I wouldn't say one suffered more than the other. I think it's easier to find Emma's story more tragic because it's a very real issue that affects many people in different amounts. Snow's story is a little less realistic, so it's harder to relate to. Not many of us have had their parents killed by an evil stepmother then have a child aged 28 years. It's just a different tale with different circumstances.

 

Snow's issues involved multiple kingdoms, not just her. It was a life and death situation. The scale was much broader. It wasn't just an issue of feeling loved, but it was also a political conflict that affected every single citizen. Not saying that Snow's was worse than Emma's at all, just that it was a whole other ballpark.

Edited January 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I think comparing Snow and Emma is apples and oranges.

 

I agree with this, and I was not at all trying to say "Oh, Emma's had it so much worse." All I was saying is that when Snow/the show tries to be all, "Oh, I know how you feel because I was on the run once, too," it irritates the crap out of me because no, no she doesn't. She can't. Just as Emma can't possibly know how it feels to lose one's mother at ten, have one's father murdered as a teenager, and spend however many years dodging the wicked stepmother who wants to kill her.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Even the phrase "on the run" highlights the main difference between Snow and Emma's backgrounds. Snow spent years running away from Regina and her former home. Emma spent her whole life running towards trying to find a home.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Even the phrase "on the run" highlights the main difference between Snow and Emma's backgrounds. Snow spent years running away from Regina and her former home. Emma spent her whole life running towards trying to find a home.

Their objectives were a complete contrast. Snow wanted to be alone so she found solitude and lived by herself for several months. Emma desperately wanted family, while Snow wanted nothing but to get away from hers.

 

 

All I was saying is that when Snow/the show tries to be all, "Oh, I know how you feel because I was on the run once, too," it irritates the crap out of me because no, no she doesn't.

I could see a similarity with Snow and Emma both being bandits and not having a comfortable home to sleep in, but the common ground stops there. Their situations and reasons for their circumstances were polar opposites. The feelings running through their minds were very unalike.

Edited January 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

From where we got sidetracked in the villains thread:

The best "reason" I've ever seen someone come up with is that Snow has some sort of extremely dysfunctional abused child relationship with Regina and that's why Snow can't bring herself to do anything about Regina, despite the piles of dead bodies. But I don't consider that having a sense of nobility or honor.

It does seem like the show portrayed that as Snow being good -- maybe not honorable or noble, but as a sign of Snow's goodness, possibly as a signal that we, too, should pity and forgive Regina because she's worth saving, or some nonsense like that.

 

But I do think there's something to the idea that Snow has a dysfunctional abused child relationship, and that's what makes her act so oddly toward Regina. For one thing, there's the fact that Regina saved her life. That could have led Snow to feel like she owes Regina. She can't take the life of someone she feels she owes her life to. They did have a good relationship for a short time, and then Regina abruptly changed and seems to have run hot and cold, putting on a front at times but not really being able to hide it all the time. Even if it was unintentional, that's classic emotional abuser behavior, where the good times are good enough that the abused person will want to get them back and feel at fault for the bad times. That could explain Snow's constant refrain now of "I was so bratty and selfish." After the one time we saw her being chastised by her mother, the child we saw was nothing of the sort. This kid refused to kill someone else to save her mother, managed to put on a brave face for her people at her mother's funeral and was willing to give up the stepmother she wanted so Regina could have happiness with the man she loved. That doesn't suggest that she was at all bratty and selfish. But if she didn't know any reason for Regina's changing attitude and if Regina was inconsistent enough, she could easily have blamed herself and internalized that there must have been something wrong with her so that she can't shake that self image even though she now knows why Regina hates her. In fact, I'd say that the fact that she did apparently blame herself for their strained relationship is a good sign that she wasn't bratty and selfish because a selfish brat wouldn't have imagined that her own behavior could have been a problem and would have blamed her stepmother.

 

And then Snow later found out that Daniel died and she played a role, so she had reason to blame herself for the problems. She feels like she really has wronged Regina. So she feels like she wronged the person who saved her life, and she can't help but blame herself for their relationship not being better, and that could make it difficult for her to hurt Regina. Is it right for her to execute someone if she only went evil because of what Snow did to her?

 

I'm not saying this is entirely rational or at all right. As Snow shouted under the Shattered Sight spell, "I was ten!" And Regina's response was way out of proportion. But if you dig into it, and especially if she had the kind of guidance that Henry is getting (not being challenged on stuff like "heroes don't kill"), then I could see how she might have developed some of her attitudes. I don't really see why she'd want to be friends with Regina now, other than maybe a desperation for whatever family and link to her old life she could find, but I can kind of see how she'd have a hard time killing Regina.

[KingOfHearts]

I think Snow takes Regina's problems on herself because she feels responsible for creating them in the first place. Very warped, but it's likely. She has it cemented in her brain that doing good or being kind will always bring good results, if they don't, it just means she needs to be even kinder.

[Camera One]

They did have a good relationship for a short time, and then Regina abruptly changed and seems to have run hot and cold, putting on a front at times but not really being able to hide it all the time.

 

It looks like Regina put up a front for a long time?  Snow was hugging her for comfort at her father's funeral, so Snow seemed completely clueless. 

[Shanna Marie]

Snow was hugging her for comfort at her father's funeral, so Snow seemed completely clueless.

Not entirely clueless, since as I recall she figured out pretty quickly that the Huntsman was supposed to kill her, and she wrote that apology/forgiveness note to Regina. So Regina must have put up a front without completely hiding her distaste all the time, which could have led to that whole desperate to please, I must have screwed up somehow attitude. A sensitive person who tends to think of others before herself is probably going to think that any issues in their relationship, whenever they appeared, were her fault because she did something rather than that Regina was a psycho bitch who would never be happy. If Regina had been awful all the time, a Cinderella's stepmother type, then it might have been better. But the inconsistency would drive a kid kind of crazy. If you treat a child (or animal) inconsistently, sometimes being nice and sometimes being mean, with no pattern to it, no real reason, the kid will either turn mean or passive, depending on the basic personality. Snow's tendency was to figure that she must be to blame, that if she was a better child then Regina would be happier, which would have led her to go overboard trying to please Regina, not knowing that was impossible.

 

She has it cemented in her brain that doing good or being kind will always bring good results, if they don't, it just means she needs to be even kinder.

That seems to be Ginny's headcanon, based on her remarks about how she rationalized the infamous speech about how Regina shouldn't feel bad about sleeping with a married man. Didn't she say something about how she worked it out that it had to be Snow just trying to make Regina feel better? Just about everything in her relationship with Regina is focused on making Regina feel better, never on what makes her happy or feel better. The attitude is that being nice to others will make things work out for her, so she keeps killing herself to try to make others happy. That's how she gets her own happiness. Unfortunately, she's fixated on fixing the one person who will never be happy, who will always want more, and in doing so she neglects the other people in her life who could be happy with some attention from her and who could actually make her happy.

 

Snow needs to book some sessions with Archie.

[Camera One]

I think he scared her off with that impromptu session while she was loading her car.

[Rumsy4]

Poor Snow. Her 4A arc as Mayor of Storybrooke was merely to show how incompetent she was compared to the mass murdering psychopath who controlled everyone's life for 28 years. The writers have found yet another way to beat down Snow to make Regina look better.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Rumsy4

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Rumsy4 beat me to it but I was coming here to mention the pointlessness of the Mayor Snow in 4A if they were just planning to hand it right back Regina. I guess the writers didn't know what the point was either, hence sweeping it away in a montage scene where they didn't have to deal with any of that pesky dialogue to explain it. Snow's tenure as mayor was mentioned in all of what 4-5 scenes in 4A? Nearest I can tell the Snow-becomes-mayor plotline was really only driven by the need to distract Snow from the fact that Emma almost froze to death in 402, since that was the only episode where it was a dealt with as a major plot point. So Snow becomes mayor...OR any of the 50 other logical new mom reasons that could've written themselves for why Snow didn't know/wasn't concerned with what was happening to her daughter.

 

Either that or the writers room was buzzing to write an interior design storyline. "Okay so there's this bird painting--Snow loves it and Regina hates it..." 

[Serena]

I honestly *love* the idea of Snow doing something ruthless, even bad, to save her kingdom or her family or for whatever reason (I have faith enough in the writers that they'll AT LEAST give her a motivation that isn't "I felt like it"). I'd be excited for the storyline if this were season 1. But I just know they're doing this as a "Snow and Regina aren't so different after all" type of deal and not a "good people sometimes need to do bad things for the right reason" kind of thing.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Serena

[YaddaYadda]

I feel like this conversation about Regina vs Snow and what type of villainy they pulled is like beating a dead horse.  Even if Snow killed 5 people to achieve whatever it was she wanted to achieve, it's still not an entire village that has been decimated on her orders.  I mean no, nothing excuses murder but in the Once universe, it is excused, so I'll go ahead and excuse Snow even if she did not murder anyone.

 

Snow wants Regina's approval, period.  And you know what would go a long way for Snow in finally being able to just let go of this wanting to make Regina happy at all costs?  If Regina came out and said, whatever you did when you were 10 years old, you were just a child and acted irrationally and I'm sorry and I forgive you for telling my secret.  I realize that mother was batshit crazy and there was no way I could have ran off with Daniel.  She would have found me, killed him and dragged me back.

 

The reason Snow is okay or seems to be okay with Regina sleeping with a married man, the reason she seems to have some sort of dislike for Marian who she doesn't even know is because Regina being with Robin and happy with Robin and in love with Robin and finding her happy ending with Robin assuages her guilt with what happened with Daniel because yeah, she was ten, but she still feels guilty about it because Regina became her jury, judge and executioner with regards to that and drove the point home plenty of times that Snow was responsible for ALL of it.

 

I'm surprised Snow isn't the one mongoosing all over the place with Regina, trying to find the bullshit author.