Upon First Viewing...: New Viewers to the Buffyverse

[GreenScreenFX]

As I stated ... you really should have watched thm at the same time, you would be much more informed and probably just starting season six.... that said... I love your opinions. You are a great commenter.

[Delphi]

Yeah.   Faith's redemption took place magnificently over on Angel in season one and two and reached its peak in season 4.  So just for the record in no way,shape or form did Spike reform way before Faith did.

I enjoyed the last few episodes a lot.   But mostly for Faith.   Buffy was very unlikable for me during this last stretch.  From her obsession with Spike.   To attacking Faith when Faith didn't do anything except bring herself to a town that wrecked her to help Buffy.  I get she was a wreck, but damn Buffy calm thyself. 

[Smad]

11 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

But yeah, the Spike/Buffy scenes in "Touched" were really touching, though honestly they built him up too much in the final season. I mean, what a turn for him to be only loyal ally left to Buffy considering where he came from.

Oh yeah it was so touching this happened. On the anniversary of the attempted rape no less. And by that point the show had splendidly dealt with that topic in regards to Buffy.

I think I just pulled too many of my sarcasm muscles.

4 hours ago, Delphi said:

Yeah.   Faith's redemption took place magnificently over on Angel in season one and two and reached its peak in season 4.  So just for the record in no way,shape or form did Spike reform way before Faith did.

I enjoyed the last few episodes a lot.   But mostly for Faith.   Buffy was very unlikable for me during this last stretch.  From her obsession with Spike.   To attacking Faith when Faith didn't do anything except bring herself to a town that wrecked her to help Buffy.  I get she was a wreck, but damn Buffy calm thyself. 

I always love that part because Buffy and Faith have switched roles by that point. Darn interesting. Faith had become early Seasons Buffy and Buffy had become early Seasons Faith. Good for Faith.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Smad

[GreenScreenFX]

I see how Faith became Buffy. I don't see how Buffy became Faith. 

Buffy was never that reckless. Shortsighted maybe, but not a homicidal maniac. She had that whole "if it feels good, do it" thing, but I don't recall a situation (that was not manipulated) when Buffy actually chose to hurt people. 

[GreenScreenFX]

And by "people" I mean humans. 

[peaceout]

So, it's done. I watched the last two eps last night. When I started watching this show in early September, I had absolutely no idea it would resonate with me the way it did. I have loved a lot of tv shows over the years, felt connected to several characters, still watch a lot of tv. But Buffy just has something really special I can't quite put my finger to. I honestly feel a sense of loss now that I have no more Buffy eps, ever. 

There's a lot I loved about the last two eps. First of all, how great was it to have Angel back! I literally jumped out of my seat when he first appeared and it was just such a nice joy for people like me who really fell in love with Buffy and Angel together, to have them be in a scene together in the final ep. It's amazing to me that now each time Buffy and Angel have had a scene together since he left in season three (I think three times?), they always manage to find that brilliant chemistry together that just pops out. And each scene they've shared since he left, spoke true of them at that point in their lives. Well, true of Buffy at that point in her life anyway, because I have no clue what Angel has been up to in his series. In season 4, there was definitely still that immediate connection there, with things still fresh, but clearly Buffy atleast wanting to genuinely give things with Riley a try. In season 5, that connection was all about comfort, the familiar, the safe place. And now, with so much time having passed, I find it so telling that their almost immediate reaction is to embrace and kiss. They just fit, somehow and I've always loved that about them. On the merit of the scene itself, it wasn't the best written scene, but I'll take it because I can kind of see what the show was trying to sell here. Essentially that Spike is very much the man in Buffy's life right now. But Angel has a place in her heart that no-one else can replace. And I loved that Buffy actually told Angel to just stand there for a minute so she could bask. And just as tellingly, she pointed out the not so great 'highlights' of their relationship as well. So it has been messy, sure, but it's them. It seems to me that their pull towards each other just cannot be denied. I can just as easily understand Buffy not wanting to 'commit' herself to a future. But it pleases me that to even have a subtle acknowledgment that if ever these two might potentially see even a remote possibility of a future that involves a romantic other, after all their ups and downs in life have been dealt with, it's with each other. Thank you Sarah and David and the show for giving me a tv couple I haven't felt this invested in since Rick and Michonne.

On to other stuff I loved. The scoobies! I loved how they went about getting the group back together by simply doing just that, getting them back together. No big declarations needed, just someone to break the ice so to speak and that's it, a family naturally falls back in their pattern. Obviously it was Buffy coming back and saving the day that set things in motion but I liked that it continued with the scene between her, Willow and Giles when Willow cracks that joke and her and Buffy smirk, and later when Buffy is in the room telling her core people about her plan, Giles's completely genuine enthusiasm and Buffy seeking it out, nonetheless. Great stuff. And it was so important in that scene only to have the main four plus Dawn, Anya and Faith. I also absolutely LOVED that little moment just the main four had together in 'Chosen' where Buffy, Willow and Xander are just randomly talking and Giles with his reactions. Did it make that much sense in the context of the ep for them to be having this moment? Perhaps not so much, but I think it made the ep far richer. I genuinely got wistful.

Buffy and Faith. What can I say. What an incredibly unique dynamic these two have had over the course of the show. I really thought that scene the two of them had together just on their own was so well written. They have been through so much, good and bad, separately and together and yet here they are. At a place of not only mutual respect but an acknowledgment that there will always be a part of them that no-one else will truly 'get' except the other. 

I may not have been the greatest Buffy and Spike being together fan, but I have to admit, their final scene together was lovely. I don't know if I'm reading into it, but I really felt both of them wanted to say what the other needed to hear. And Spike saying he felt his soul actually moved me more than I thought it would. 

I actually ended up liking the Robin and Faith scenes! Go figure, but saw more of a spark and connection in the last ep between them that all the going at it like bunnies in Touched.

There were these little moments in both eps that I really loved. I loved the Dungeons & Dragons scene, for how incredibly in such a short little scene, it spoke so much. It was really funny, yes, but essentially captured that 'night before battle' in exactly the Buffy way I have come to expect and love. Anya's conversation with Andrew at the hospital really worked for me. It rounded off her character arc in such a beautiful way, it's almost poetic. She wasn't helping save the day this time for any other reason other than her wanting to. That really moved me and made her death all the more painful. I also loved that we got one last scene of just Buffy and Xander together and just Willow and Giles together. I realized how many scenes we have had of Willow and Giles figuring out a particular demon or whatnot and they've always had this special bond in that regard. Just like Buffy and Xander have always had these moments together too. 

I thought the fight scenes in the hellmouth were really done very well. Particularly this one moment where this really rousing part of the score swelled up and you literally had everyone going all in. Brilliant. Really got me in the moment. 

I have some problems with the concept of turning all these girls into slayers but I have to say, that whole montage with Buffy talking and the various scenes of all the different kinds of girls having a chance to be empowered, was great as a message. And actually came at just the right moment in the ep.

And finally, that last scene. So much promise for the future and I loved it! I felt such a joy in knowing that in my head I can assume or imagine these characters all moving on the next phase of their lives, with added responsibilities sure, but still alive and together. And hopeful and more together than ever.

Now, on to the stuff that's not so great. Spike is dead?! I soured on a lot of Spike stuff in the last one and a half seasons because of the relationship angle but I find myself still really attached to Spike as a character, on his own merit. I can see storywise why it makes sense to have him close off his chapter heroically, like Anya's, but just like in her case, simultaneously one can also argue that there was more story to tell. Obviously not in the context of the show because it's over but in terms of continuing to give them a chance to go the heroes way. Find their path in life even further. I'm actually really bummed that the show offed both characters. One I could take but both?!

Turning all the potentials into slayers does not work for me and if anything is a potentially volatile and extremely difficult situation. Not only does this mean that Buffy and co's task now is to round up hundreds of girls but how do we even know every girl getting that incredible amount of power is ready for it? Could it not potentially complicate their lives and even more importantly, that kind of power, unchecked or in the hands of the unhinged? Not a great idea. Plus, what really bothered me about this was that in the context of what eventually happened, did they even need to do the spell? What was ultimately the need to go into the hellmouth, all of them? They could just as easily have had Spike stand there and do his thing because ultimately, Spike's amulet is what did the trick. On that wholesale, be done with the town way. Not the slayers.

Speaking of hellmouth, I thought it looked very cool visually but why were there only those vampires there? Was this a special section of the hellmouth or something? Because last I remember as it was referred to, there were a lot more creatures in there.

The extra heavy focus on Buffy and Spike didn't work for me. The overtly romantic angle just doesn't resonate with me when it comes to these together. I think it's almost a waste of their rich and varied dynamic and chemistry over the years. But it was what it was. But I agree here in that regard with what nosleepforme said:

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though honestly they built him up too much in the final season. I mean, what a turn for him to be only loyal ally left to Buffy considering where he came from.

It was just too much. 

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You are a great commenter.

Thank you GreenScreenFX! Thank you everyone for bearing with me and my unspoiled ways, lol. I will definitely be checking out Angel, next.

[trudi-tru]

I'm glad that show was a such a good experience for you, peaceout. I guess maybe watching all the seasons so close together made the decline in quality less striking.

I'm pretty sure you are going to enjoy Angel as well. I look forward to reading your comments on it.

[romantic idiot]

3 hours ago, peaceout said:

I have loved a lot of tv shows over the years, felt connected to several characters, still watch a lot of tv. But Buffy just has something really special I can't quite put my finger to. I honestly feel a sense of loss now that I have no more Buffy eps, ever. 

Welcome to the club, peaceout. And thank you for sharing your experience of this show with us. It brought back a lot of my feelings as I watched the show for the first time too. 

And while there are no more Buffy episodes, there's still Angel to go!

[peaceout]

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I'm glad that show was a such a good experience for you, peaceout. I guess maybe watching all the seasons so close together made the decline in quality less striking.

trudi-tru, you have a point. I have no doubt that watching the show back to back like this definitely helped in keeping my enthusiasm constantly going because there were no real periods of reflection in between. I do agree there was a decline in quality in creating the overall arc of seasons in seasons 6 and 7. Generally speaking, I found as overall seasons, seasons 2-5 flowed much better. I'm not counting season 1, because there were so few eps. Having said, I still tremendously enjoyed the experience.

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And while there are no more Buffy episodes, there's still Angel to go!

This is what I'm consoling myself with right now, romantic idiot!

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Haha, I am happy you stayed on the Buffy/Angel ship.

I'm hopeless that way, nosleepforme. 

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Though I guess, as with the potentials, they didn't really have an awful lot of time to turn him into a likeable character that is fully integrated into the Scoobie Gang.

I think, in hindsight, there were just too many of them. Maybe if it was 2-3 characters at the most, it would have worked better. 

[Loandbehold]

peaceout, I'd suggest that you rewatch the Buffy episodes that directly relate to what's happening on Angel. I know there are places that let you know which episodes to watch. It's not many times that this becomes relevant, but the refresher might come in handy.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts going through the series. Have fun with Angel.

[GreenScreenFX]

Angel The Series is more adult in nature, but it doesn't belittle the verse. Plus, most every Buffy character crosses over multiple times.

[peaceout]

Thank you Loandbehold! I just watched the first two eps last night. Will head over on to the Angel forums soon. 

[Delphi]

@peaceout I'll meet you there then.   I was planning on doing a rematch of a show, so it might as well be Angel.   The first season being one of my most favourite things ever.  

[FurryFury]

I heartily second (or third... or whatever) the praise for your comments, peaceout! Glad you loved the show, and it definitely warms me that you loved Angel/Buffy romance as much as I did :) It was probably one of my first ships ever, and it has managed to stay with me a decade and a half afterwards, so it's great to see it still manages to pull in viewers.

Angel the Series is a different beast from BtVS, but no less great. I plan to participate in the discussion more because I have lots more to say about Angel (on the objective level - most of my opinions on Buffy are very subjective, but no less divisive).

Edited October 22, 2016 by FurryFury

[peaceout]

Thanks, everyone! Hope to see you on the Angel forums. 

[buffynut]

Peaceout:  reading your thoughts on the series re-ignited my Buffy interest, so much so that yesterday I brought my old vcr and Buffy vhs tapes up from the basement to see if the tapes still worked.  And they do. :)  Now I'm planning to watch the show again from the beginning. All 144 episodes.  Only problem is my remote doesn't work, so I'll have to sit through the commercials, so each episode will take the whole 60 minutes.  Course I could just get up off the sofa during every commercial break and actually push the buttons on the vcr, kind of what it was like when tv's didn't have remotes. LOL.

When I looked through my tapes, I found I also have a copy of the unaired pilot. And that reminded me, that I actually bought the unaired pilot, as well season 1 episodes from a guy I found on the internet. That was long before Youtube, or even the file sharing sites. Couldn't really do those types of uploads on dial up!  From season 2 onward, I taped every episode myself.

So I'm trying to decided how to watch. An ep a day will take over 4 months!  Don't think I could fit more than 2 a day, except maybe on weekends.  How long did it take you to watch the whole series?

[peaceout]

buffynut, I started on the 1st or 2nd of September and I finished this past Friday, the 21st of Oct. So I'd say about 50 odd days or so? But then I'm a complete insomniac and really zipped and zoomed my way through the series because I was able to watch longer stretches of eps on most nights even other than weekends.

[buffynut]

peaceout:  144 episodes in 50 days is amazing! No way will I come close to that. Course I won't be watching for the first time, so I won't have the urgency to know what happens next.   

Hope you enjoy Angel, the series. I must pop into the Angel forum to see what you think of it.  Even though I love Angel (the character) I tired of the show after a while and eventually stopped watching. 

[buffynut]

nosleepforme:  I did.  I'm a bad Buffy fan. 

[buffynut]

13 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Actually, it's perfect. That means you can still enjoy brand-new Buffyverse episodes if you choose to and I think the last two seasons of Angel have some of the best episodes of Angel (and there are even two or three that are just as amazing as the best Buffy episodes).

Good point. I'm not sure when I stopped watching, but since I know I don't know how the Angel show ends, there definitely are some new-to-me Buffyverse episodes to watch.

[Maherjunkie]

I am getting back into Buffy and there are many episodes I  missed the first time.   Can someone tell me why Spike and Anya want souls and is it worth her giving up her powers in particular?

[secnarf]

34 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

I am getting back into Buffy and there are many episodes I  missed the first time.   Can someone tell me why Spike and Anya want souls and is it worth her giving up her powers in particular?

Spike - he wants to be "the man that [Buffy] deserves". Ostensibly, he did it for her.

Anya - Vengeance demons apparently have souls, so I am assuming you mean being human. The first time around she lost her powers and was made human against her will. Then in season 6 she is allowed to become a vengeance demon again, but she doesn't enjoy it, is considered 'soft' and so tries to prove herself by killing a bunch of frat boys, then eventually wants to take back what she has done, and that's when D'Hoffryn turns her human again - it wasn't at her explicit request. The other part of that is

 

that it costs the soul of a vengeance demon, and Anya was willing to sacrifice herself, but D'Hoffryn kills Anya's friend Halfrek instead, then turns Anya mortal again so she can live with what she did.

Edited November 27, 2016 by secnarf

[Maherjunkie]

When does Spike get his soul?  At the end?  I am assuming it wasn't after the rape.

[secnarf]

16 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

When does Spike get his soul?  At the end?  I am assuming it wasn't after the rape.

IIRC the rape attempt was the event that prompted him to get his soul. He definitely got his soul after that.

[taanja]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 1:05 AM, peaceout said:

Thanks nosleepforme and trudi-tru for answering my questions! I had no idea about the different networks. It makes sense then for a crossover to be difficult and in a way it makes me appreciate the writers more that atleast they still added this little part in about a Buffy-Angel meeting at all. It would be very easy to just ignore that Angel exists at all. But the Buffy/Angel fan in me is really disappointed by this. So this means no more crossovers ever? No more Buffy and Angel in a scene together? 

Thanks! I'm up to Gone now.

As far as the debate about Buffy not talking to her friends vs her friends not talking to her, I didn't mean to imply her friends chose to ignore her or that Buffy was all gung-ho about talking to them, because she clearly wasn't. I think the situation, the way everything fell into place, was such that when  Buffy came home, where Spike seemed much calmer, quieter, when the Scoobies burst in, they were all frenetic and 'we got you out.' etc. Buffy gravitated towards Spike when she should have confided in her friends, agreed. But I can see why she did. I don't think the situation painted her or her friends in a bad light. They were each just responding as best they could.

On Buffy's depression with being pulled out of heaven, again, I'm just saying I can see why she would be depressed. She may have been only 21, but a good chunk of of her life revolved around violence, mayhem, death, constant pressures of constant end of world scenarios, and so on. I can completely buy her being at peace with checking out in The Gift. She was ready, I bought that. Now, her continued bad decisions post depression. That's another matter.

Because like I said in my earlier post I think, I get why Buffy gravitated towards Spike and it makes sense for her to be distracting herself with someone who absolutely worships her. My fear was it's all ok now, when Spike is in 'hero' mode, and channeling his image through his perception of Buffy's opinion of him. But what if that changes? What if Buffy loses interest or sees someone else? What will happen then?  It's dangerous. And everything Smashed-Gone has just made me realize that I think my fears might not be so crazy after all.

I have no idea or theories on why Spike can harm Buffy but not other humans. But it's interesting that the first thing he does is attempt to bite someone. He is ultimately held back because of the chip, not a soul. He repeatedly tells Buffy he loves her and in his own head, I believe he believes that. And his life revolves completely  around her, that much is obvious. But that's what makes this potentially so dangerous. Buffy doesn't seem to be realizing how quickly Spike has the potential to go unhinged. All the ingredients are there, including his ability to hurt Buffy. I really can't imagine where her heads at. he's had several opportunities to back out of things with Spike, yet every time she actively chooses not to. I've never wanted to genuinely smack her upside down the head so much. I just can't see this turning out well.

Amy de-ratting was interesting but a disappointment in terms of how she's woven into this magic addiction storyline. I'm not sure how either Amy or Willow got addicted so much, so quickly that they had to seek out that Rack guy. I appreciate that Willow is atleast trying to change. Gone was an interesting ep for her in that sense. I really regained my love for her in that ep, in fact, because I could see how hard it was for her to stay away from magic but she was giving it everything she had not to go back to it. Of course, my fundamental problem with this is the addiction itself. Yes, she's been doing more magic in the last couple of years than before, but what has suddenly made her addicted? And more importantly, how is a scenario where Willow never does any magic, ever, ok to anyone in the Scoobies? It's a ridiculous notion. Surely, there has to be another way around this. I miss Giles.

So the trio of nemesis-is-es, lol, is out. I have to admit that whole scene was hilarious. But they're still more annoying than funny. I feel the urge to skip their scenes and I haven't felt like skipping scenes since a couple of eps in season 4. 

These last three eps have really tested my patience in a lot of ways. But I still can't wait for the next episode so I don't know what that says about me, lol. Clearly I'm addicted. 

 peaceout you will find many mixed emotions among Buffy fans concerning season 6 & 7. I personally loved all the seasons -- for different reasons but I love season 6 BECAUSE of the Buffy/Spike hook up. But I will admit I never really liked Angel and Buffy together. I know!  I know! unpopular opinion.

I watched the Angel series for one season only and never went back. I found it lackluster compared to BTVS

[taanja]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 3:11 AM, peaceout said:

Spike was given a soul?! It really did not seem to like Spike went there looking for a soul restoration. Or am I completely off? It almost seemed like he went there wanting either his chip to be removed or to somehow get back to his killing ways, but he got a soul instead. I'm not sure I like it. Sort of cheapens Angel's soul, somehow? I don't know. But having said, Spike is a different character altogether. The context behind him getting a soul is completely different to Angel's. Therefore, it could be really interesting as well, seeing his progression with a soul, something we actually never saw with Angel, as he came with years of having had a soul already.

 

 

See. I saw it as Spike seeking his soul. On purpose. He WANTS to be the kind of man that wouldn't hurt the woman he loves.

and one of my problems with Angel and his soul is that when he gets his "moments of pleasure" (yes they happen more than once) and loses his soul -- he revels in being evil ----Simply relishes it. He always has to have his soul forcibly "put back in" or however one words that. Where as Spike sought his soul- because he wants to be a good man- for Buffy!

Oh and notice Spike is evil yes--- but not nasty evil like Angel is when he doesn't have a soul. Obviously I don't like the Angel character very much. and I LOVE Spike. So there is that.

[peaceout]

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I watched the Angel series for one season only and never went back. I found it lackluster compared to BTVS

So far I'm about six or so eps into Season Four of Angel. I've enjoyed parts of it tremendously and some of its highs have been right up there with Buffy. But i find the stuff that I'm not that enthused about in Angel, I'm way less enthused about than any of the stuff ever on Buffy. Atleast so far. 

[Loandbehold]

I felt the same way about Angel. It's my least favorite of all the Whedon shows. A few really good episodes, but, given that it ran 5 seasons, very few memorable ones. where you just mention the name of the episode, and I can remember almost the entire episode.

[Jazzy24]

21 hours ago, taanja said:

See. I saw it as Spike seeking his soul. On purpose. He WANTS to be the kind of man that wouldn't hurt the woman he loves.

and one of my problems with Angel and his soul is that when he gets his "moments of pleasure" (yes they happen more than once) and loses his soul -- he revels in being evil ----Simply relishes it. He always has to have his soul forcibly "put back in" or however one words that. Where as Spike sought his soul- because he wants to be a good man- for Buffy!

Oh and notice Spike is evil yes--- but not nasty evil like Angel is when he doesn't have a soul. Obviously I don't like the Angel character very much. and I LOVE Spike. So there is that.

My problem with Spike getting a soul was that souled Spike was no different than no soul Spike. The Spike who had a soul could have just as easily attempted to rape Buffy as no souled Spike. Nor did Spike ever show remorse from what I can remember for his crimes. He was the same old Spike even with his soul. 

And Angel with and without a soul are two completely different people. Angelus was evil on a whole other level that was not normal for vampires. 

[taanja]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 1:22 PM, Jazzy24 said:

My problem with Spike getting a soul was that souled Spike was no different than no soul Spike. The Spike who had a soul could have just as easily attempted to rape Buffy as no souled Spike. Nor did Spike ever show remorse from what I can remember for his crimes. He was the same old Spike even with his soul. 

And Angel with and without a soul are two completely different people. Angelus was evil on a whole other level that was not normal for vampires. 

Isn't that crazy! The thing I liked about un-souled Spike and souled Spike was that they were the same! because Spike was -- is and always will be a fool for love!  He could never be as evil as he pretended because it wasn't his nature.

Angel? Not so much. he is pure evil without his souls and relishes in the evil. It always takes a curse to put the soul back in.

[Jack Shaftoe]

All unsouled vampires relish being evil, some are just lazier or more cautious of being caught than others. Spike just preferred quantity over quality when it came to murder. He was just as evil as Angel as was, which is to say totally evil. Until he was retconned into a romantic hero, that is. If Spike can choose to seek his soul for an altruistic reason then he really didn't need a soul in the first place and should have been staked for all those murders he apparently could have decided not commit, since he wasn't reveling in evil, right? Ironically, the less fully evil a vampire is sans soul, the less deserving he is of redemption when he has a soul, IMO. If a vampire could choose not to revel in murder and mayhem but never bothered to do so, then he is basically the same as any human serial killer, only with superpowers. Somehow, I don't think that's what they wanted to depict with Spike, they just rewrote the character halfway through without thinking about the ramifications much.

[KingOfHearts]

First time Buffy viewer. Just finished the first season, going into the second.

One thing I don't really understand about the show is that the muggles don't really care about the very obvious supernatural events. Yet, it's imperative Buffy's second life has to be a secret. Invisible girls, mantis women and vampire hoards never seem to make the papers.

[taanja]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 10:58 PM, KingOfHearts said:

First time Buffy viewer. Just finished the first season, going into the second.

One thing I don't really understand about the show is that the muggles don't really care about the very obvious supernatural events. Yet, it's imperative Buffy's second life has to be a secret. Invisible girls, mantis women and vampire hoards never seem to make the papers.

That's Sunnydale in a nutshell. The muggles see nothing-- hear nothing and say nothing.

[azshadowwalker]

I really don't think Spike got his soul because he didn't want to kill. I don't even think he did it because Buffy "deserved" better. It's more consistent with his character that he did it because it was the only way to get what he wanted, i.e. it would get to Buffy, convince her he was worthy. Being obsessive about women, as he was with both Dru and Buffy, doesn't affect his desire for slaughter. It's about his desire for them. That reliance on both controlling and being accepted by a woman goes all the way back to his mother. Even the Judge noted that Spike and Dru weren't "pure", because they shared affection for each other. That alone doesn't mean he could choose not to be evil. 

[Smad]

On 14.1.2017 at 11:32 PM, azshadowwalker said:

Even the Judge noted that Spike and Dru weren't "pure", because they shared affection for each other. That alone doesn't mean he could choose not to be evil. 

But no vampire is 'pure' unless they can become full blown demons. Vampires are still human hybrids. The demon taking over the body forms itself out of the former human's memories/emotions. All vampires we have seen suffer from this. Whether it's about familial relations, lovers, desires, hobbies like reading/arts/ballet etc. or obsessions. Even Angelus falls into that category, though we only see that later mostly through more flashbacks over on AtS. Though his fixation on Buffy to make her pay falls into the human category as well. The only reason Angelus was deemed 'pure' by the Judge was for the viewer to think that he is on a whole other tier, evil wise. But he really wasn't. Though most things from the early Seasons in regards to Spike and Angel was retconned later.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Smad

[azshadowwalker]

On 1/30/2017 at 11:33 AM, Smad said:

But no vampire is 'pure' unless they can become full blown demons. Vampires are still human hybrids. The demon taking over the body forms itself out of the former human's memories/emotions. All vampires we have seen suffer from this. Whether it's about familial relations, lovers, desires, hobbies like reading/arts/ballet etc. or obsessions. 

It wasn't about emotions, per se, or experiences. It was specifically about shared affection, attachment to another which was focused on their well-being. Darla, for example, didn't share that with Angelus. She was happy to abandon him, if it was in her best interests or if he was no longer vicious enough. How was it in Spike's best interests to seek out a way to "heal" Dru or to demand that Buffy allow him to take her away with him at the end of season 2? Darla wouldn't have bothered with Angelus in such a case. She didn't care about curing his curse and we saw her abandon him to Holtz. If he didn't act "right" or would slow her down, screw him. 

[Smad]

8 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

It wasn't about emotions, per se, or experiences. It was specifically about shared affection, attachment to another which was focused on their well-being. Darla, for example, didn't share that with Angelus. She was happy to abandon him, if it was in her best interests or if he was no longer vicious enough. How was it in Spike's best interests to seek out a way to "heal" Dru or to demand that Buffy allow him to take her away with him at the end of season 2? Darla wouldn't have bothered with Angelus in such a case. She didn't care about curing his curse and we saw her abandon him to Holtz. If he didn't act "right" or would slow her down, screw him. 

It's about humanity. That's what the Judge burns out of you. And the Judge's yardstick for humanity is as low as reading. If liking to read is already enough to get you burned, then even Angelus has humanity in him and therefore should have been burned by the Judge.

[Dev F]

11 hours ago, Smad said:

It's about humanity. That's what the Judge burns out of you. And the Judge's yardstick for humanity is as low as reading. If liking to read is already enough to get you burned, then even Angelus has humanity in him and therefore should have been burned by the Judge.

But at that particular point, Angelus was in a very specific psychological place -- having spent so many years chained to Angel's conscience, and having recently been forced to endure Angel's love for Buffy, he was recoiling from anything that reminded him of his lost humanity. "She made me feel like a human being. That's not the kind of thing you just forgive." So while at another point Angelus might've tweaked the Judge's sensors with his affection for Darla, his love of fine clothes and world travel, etc., at that moment he was all hate, all the time.

A lot of people take the Judge's readings as a sign that Spike and Dru are somehow special, with a capacity for goodness that other vampires don't have or something like that, but in fact Angelus is the outlier -- the only one who's evil enough to pass muster. And it's not because all the other vamps have some buried moral compass, but because they're capable of being dissuaded from evil by morally neutral things like an interest in books or personal affection for another vampire. Only Angelus has enough of a chip on his shoulder that he isn't going to let anything dissuade him from wreaking havok.

[KingOfHearts]

First time watcher. I'm up to about two-thirds of S4. From what I've heard, there's a widespread consensus that the show drops in quality in this season. I agree with it in some ways, but don't in others. My take on it is that the show has lost its original "spirit". It's no longer about a bunch of teenagers in high school fighting monsters. It's more complicated and the story isn't as tight. I don't think it's bad or that the show necessarily jumped the shark at this point, but it's... different. You can tell it's a transitional period, and that's somewhat intended. Just as the characters are experiencing new horizons, so is the writing. The absence of Sunnydale High has a lot to do with it.

I don't like Riley or The Initiative, but I'm cautiously digging Tara. Though I hate Xander with the fire of a thousand suns, his relationship with Anya is very amusing.

Edited February 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Jazzy24]

21 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

First time watcher. I'm up to about two-thirds of S4. From what I've heard, there's a widespread consensus that the show drops in quality in this season. I agree with it in some ways, but don't in others. My take on it is that the show has lost its original "spirit". It's no longer about a bunch of teenagers in high fighting monsters. It's more complicated and the story isn't as tight. I don't think it's bad or that the show necessarily jumped the shark at this point, but it's... different. You can tell it's a transitional period, and that's somewhat intended. Just as the characters are experiencing new horizons, so is the writing. The absence of Sunnydale High has a lot to do with it.

I don't like Riley or The Initiative, but I'm cautiously digging Tara. Though I hate Xander with the fire of a thousand suns, his relationship with Anya is very amusing.

Ugh The Initiative, So. MUCH. HATE!!! 

But keep up posting loving hearing your thoughts about the show. 

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't welcome Faith with open arms when she first arrived on the show. I thought she was just a contrived foil for Buffy. The difference in Slaying methods was not all that worthy of exploration. As the third season went on, Faith would do worse things and get away with it. No matter what happened, Buffy would give her a benefit of a doubt. (That is, until she needed her blood to save her boyfriend...) However, her character did get deeper once she started the father/daughter relationship with the Mayor.

Now Faith is back in S4, and... she's actually entertaining to me. She functions much better as an antagonist to Buffy, rather than just an antithesis. I've never found her sympathetic, considering she killed innocent people for giggles. Her tragic past explains who she is, but it doesn't excuse her for being a psychopath. Her character is sad, but I really don't feel bad for her. She has had positive influences in her life, but she has always willingly turned them over. 

Can I give props to Gellar for her awesome performance of Faith in the body switch episode? She copied her mannerisms so well it was freaky. I love how this show can take something so cliche in the sci-fi/fantasy drama as a body switch, and turn it into something meaningful. There was this scene where after Faith gets Buffy's body, she explores it in the bathroom and practices talking like Buffy in the mirror. It was one of those moments where BTVS puts the characters under a microscope to see how exactly they react to things, and I rarely see that in shows.

[Jazzy24]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I didn't welcome Faith with open arms when she first arrived on the show. I thought she was just a contrived foil for Buffy. The difference in Slaying methods was not all that worthy of exploration. As the third season went on, Faith would do worse things and get away with it. No matter what happened, Buffy would give her a benefit of a doubt. (That is, until she needed her blood to save her boyfriend...) However, her character did get deeper once she started the father/daughter relationship with the Mayor.

Now Faith is back in S4, and... she's actually entertaining to me. She functions much better as an antagonist to Buffy, rather than just an antithesis. I've never found her sympathetic, considering she killed innocent people for giggles. Her tragic past explains who she is, but it doesn't excuse her for being a psychopath. Her character is sad, but I really don't feel bad for her. She has had positive influences in her life, but she has always willingly turned them over. 

Can I give props to Gellar for her awesome performance of Faith in the body switch episode? She copied her mannerisms so well it was freaky. I love how this show can take something so cliche in the sci-fi/fantasy drama as a body switch, and turn it into something meaningful. There was this scene where after Faith gets Buffy's body, she explores it in the bathroom and practices talking like Buffy in the mirror. It was one of those moments where BTVS puts the characters under a microscope to see how exactly they react to things, and I rarely see that in shows.

I've always liked Faith and I agree with everything you said. 

Although when Faith made a guest appearance on "Angel" that's when I started to really feel for her. 

[KingOfHearts]

I'm finally done with S4, and to be honest, it was probably my least favorite season so far. It had some great episodes, such as Hush, but I didn't like the overall plot. In S2 and S3, there was a definite story with lots of emotion and conflict. It was cinematic. S4 didn't have the same stakes or grand idea. Angelus had a major connection to Buffy, and the Mayor had that father/daughter relationship with Faith. But the Initiative, on the other hand, lacked heart. Riley didn't need to be there other than to make him more interesting. (And give Buffy stronger motivations.) Adam could have been a study of humanity and science gone wrong, but he turned out to be a stale Big Bad. We can dust off our feet and move on, but we couldn't really do that in the aftermath of previous seasons. The main arc was just not as engaging or important.

I'm curious to know what everyone's opinions of the dream episode are. I thought, "Is this show trying to be Lost now?" I'm sure it was well-planned, artistic, blah blah blah. I just couldn't get into it. It was trying way too hard to be an abstract masterpiece. One of the show's strengths has been to draw complexity from simple concepts you'd see in real life, and I think that's more clever than a floaty sequence of dreams.

Woo. Bring on Season 5.

Edited February 14, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Willowy]

On 2/11/2017 at 5:57 PM, Jazzy24 said:

I've always liked Faith and I agree with everything you said. 

Although when Faith made a guest appearance on "Angel" that's when I started to really feel for her. 

Sanctuary and 5x5 were my favorite episodes of early AtS. Faith rules.

Also, this show was on WAY before LOST. Way before. Restless is one of the most famous episodes of BtVS for it's creativity and departure from the formula. It was amazing.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Also, this show was on WAY before LOST. 

I know. It just felt more like Lost's style (which is not exclusive to that show) than its usual groove.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I'm curious to know what everyone's opinions of the dream episode are.

Somebody on another forum once described Restless as "a love letter to the Core Four" (Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles). I agree with this description and I love the Core Four, so even though I think the episode is a bit pretentious and it probably shouldn't be a season finale, I like it a lot.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I think the episode is a bit pretentious

Pretentious was probably the word I was looking for.

Going into S5. Here's some notes so far:
* Harmony is just the best. She cracks me up like you wouldn't believe. I think she missed a few classes at vampire school.
* Tara... I don't hate her, but she doesn't add much either. Most of the time, she's just kind of there. Her purpose is usually to stroke Willow's ego. There's nothing about her that's particularly unlikable, but other than being Willow's love interest/moral compass, she doesn't have much of a point.
* Anya doesn't always offer emotional depth, yet I still find her entertaining as heck. I'll keep her.
* While I loathe Xander, I can actually sympathize with his S5 arc. He's becoming increasingly self-aware, something his character has desperately needed since the beginning. All his friends are going to college and getting things done, while he struggles to contribute. I think if he keeps up the trend of realizing his own flaws, I can tolerate him.
* It's freaking Dracula. Enough said.
* Dawn. She strikes me as a very controversial character, so I might have to dig through some old boards to see how fans reacted to her. Honestly, at this point, I think she's an annoying nuisance. (She's supposed to be 14 but she acts like a 10 year old.) But, something tells me I've only reached the tip of the iceberg.

So far, S5 has more promise than S4 to me.

Edited February 14, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I remember "Restless" got some pretty rave reviews.  I was meh, especially with the Buffy in the desert scenes.  I found Dawn annoying, and her presence made the first part of Season 5 pretty unbearable for me... felt like a forced-in new character.

[Dev F]

On 2/10/2017 at 10:49 PM, KingOfHearts said:

First time watcher. I'm up to about two-thirds of S4. From what I've heard, there's a widespread consensus that the show drops in quality in this season. I agree with it in some ways, but don't in others. My take on it is that the show has lost its original "spirit". It's no longer about a bunch of teenagers in high school fighting monsters. It's more complicated and the story isn't as tight. I don't think it's bad or that the show necessarily jumped the shark at this point, but it's... different. You can tell it's a transitional period, and that's somewhat intended. Just as the characters are experiencing new horizons, so is the writing. The absence of Sunnydale High has a lot to do with it.

Honestly, I think a large and generally unacknowledged reason why the series feels different after season 4 is because the casting gets significantly less creative.  You start getting more and more guest stars who are generic pretty/handsome instead of unique and interesting. It's the difference between, say, Buffy's short-term love interest being a shrimpy guy with weird energy like Fab Filippo as Scott Hope, and someone cool and good-looking but forgettable like Adam Kaufman as Parker Abrams.

On 2/13/2017 at 8:47 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I'm curious to know what everyone's opinions of the dream episode are. I thought, "Is this show trying to be Lost now?" I'm sure it was well-planned, artistic, blah blah blah. I just couldn't get into it. It was trying way too hard to be an abstract masterpiece. One of the show's strengths has been to draw complexity from simple concepts you'd see in real life, and I think that's more clever than a floaty sequence of dreams.

"Restless" is actually one of my favorite episodes of the series, largely because I think all the trippy dream imagery is a lot more specific than most people seem to realize. Basically, the previous episode ends with our heroes laying claim to the powers of the Primal Slayer by taking up a specific role in an "enjoining" spell. And as the episode shows the gang rediscovering their importance to one another, the roles they assume in the spell represent the roles they believe they serve in the group. Willow is the Spirit, the force of will and determination. Xander is the Heart and Giles is the Mind, both pretty self-explanatory. And Buffy is the Hand, the one who puts their collective operations into practice.

But then in "Restless," the Primal Slayer comes to reclaim her power. And in doing so, she embodies the anxieties our heroes feel about whether their group roles are important and genuine, or just a comforting fantasy they tell themselves to fit in. Hence, Willow's dream is about questioning the strength of her will, convincing her that she can never change who she is and she'll never be free of her lust and fear and rage. Xander's dream exposes the emptiness of his supposedly pure and noble heart, presenting him as a lost child led around by his desperate desire to love and be loved in a way he never will. Giles's dream complicates the notion that he's a clear thinker who sees the world as it truly is, depicting his intellect as something that alienates him from his family and friends and prevents him from understanding something as simple as the human heart. And Buffy's dream challenges the idea that she's this force for righteous action, suggesting that she fights not for her loved ones and the world but because she has to, because violence is the only thing she really understands.

If there's a weakness to the episode, I think, it's that it never offers an answer to the Primal Slayer's challenge that's as interesting as the anxieties she raises. We essentially get a pretty but trite speech about how Buffy does too have friends -- one the Primal Slayer actually refuses to accept ("No friends. Just the kill. We. Are. Alone.") -- then a fight sequence and a "She's still dreaming!" fakeout and a resolution that amounts to "And then Buffy decided to ignore her anxieties and they sort of went away." But it doesn't take away from the power of what came before, and it sets up interesting personal conflicts for the characters that the following seasons will in some cases handle pretty well and in some cases fail to follow up on at all. . . .

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I remember "Restless" got some pretty rave reviews.  I was meh, especially with the Buffy in the desert scenes.  I found Dawn annoying, and her presence made the first part of Season 5 pretty unbearable for me... felt like a forced-in new character.

Other characters like Anya were gradually slotted in. Dawn just dropped out of the sky and you can tell the writers were trying to force us to sympathize with her from the get-go.

Edited February 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts