S04.E02: The Lion And The Rose

[capt planet]

So, reading all of these pie theories makes me wonder if Pycell could have tampered with it when he was sent to the kitchens.

[arry the orphan]

I wonder about Pycell as well. At the end of season 1 they showed that Pycell is only acting like an old weakling, but nothing has come of that revelation. I always believed that Pycell was Cerseis "pet". She even demanded his release when Tyrion had him arrested in Season 2, and she trusted him to provide her with the poison the mercy kill Tommen when it looked like Stannis would take Kings Landing. But suddenly she seems to hate Pycell and is even denying him to "examine" Tyrell girls. Cersei seems to have found a new favourite maester in Qyburn. Its time for Pycell to become a player in the game or just give up and let Qyburn replace him. He might even take revenge on Tyrion this way.

And I believe that we have seen a maester using the same poison before! At the beginning of Season 2 Stannis' maester tried to kill Melisandre with it. He died, but she used some magic to survive it.

[Isazouzi]

OMG! OMG! OMG! OK, let's try to be articulate.

At first, I thought Joffrey was choking on a piece of dead dove and no one knew the Heimlich manoeuver! It would have been a fitting death for the little psycho.

I rewatched the scene where Lady Olena (I have no idea how most of the names are written, FYI) talks to Sansa and I don't see her taking a gem off her necklace, like someone mentioned. I think it was already missing or that's how the necklace is designed.

Cersei is pretty despisable in general, but I believe her when she says her children are her only reason to live. I'm convinced she would never kill Joffrey, except if he was about to be gang raped or something equally painful. It's not her.

Tywin could do it. I could see him thinking "Joffrey is crazy and unmanageable, better to get rid off him and keep Cersei as Queen Regent until Tommen comes of age, since he looks quite normal (so far)." But so many things could have gone wrong, it was a pretty risky move. He couldn't predict Joffrey was going to ask Tyrion to be his cup bearer and get the blame. So I don't think it's Tywin either.

The Tyrells? Why on earth would they do that? They have nothing to gain from it, Margery isn't even the actual queen and the Lannisters aren't exactly going to fight among themselves for Tyrion.

It doesn't look like Oberyn's way either. Dude is quite upfront, as we've seen. Dorne seems like a nice place, BTW. People seem flexible there. ;-)

I'd be suprised if it was Sansa. Do you think she was going around with poison in her pocket, waiting for the opportunity to put some in Joffrey's drink? I don't. She never approaches him, she's not a planner. If the fool hadn't taken her away, she would have sat there and be thrown in jail with Tyrion. And where is he taking her anyway? Fleeing will make her look even more suspicious (well, staying wouldn't help either).

Whoever it was had to take quick advantage of an unpredictable situation. Did Arya ever ask Jaqen to kill Joffrey? ;-)

Other than that, I looooooved how Oberyn made his message loud and clear to Tywin and Cersei. He's amazing! Him and Loras would be glorious! So many "oh snap" in those conversations! I didin't catch what illness the Prince of Dorne is suffering from? They were making fun of it, right?

So Bran will look for something? Someone? Under a tree north of the Wall. OK...

Bolton has the weirdest profile, but damn does he have a nice voice. His wife seems nice. ;-)

I agree that if Brienne loves Jaimie, it's not the way Cersei thinks, because she's incapable of understanding these kinds of pure feelings. And she might even know it, which might make her even more bitter.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Isazouzi

[Overwhelming No]

I rewatched the scene where Lady Olena (I have no idea how most of the names are written, FYI) talks to Sansa and I don't see her taking a gem off her necklace, like someone mentioned. I think it was already missing or that's how the necklace is designed.

I watched it in stop motion, frame by frame.  You can clearly see Lady Olenna grab and pull the gem on the right side of the necklace.  When you next see Sansa, head-on, there is a gem missing from the design. 

 

Conan Troutman~ the scene is right before Lady O says she needs to eat some of the food she paid for, when she's chatting with Sansa, saying only a monster would kill someone at a wedding.

 

Edited April 14, 2014 by Boo

[vinnie]

Refugee here only just logged into the other site since last season.

WOW! So didn't see this happening until right up until the end.  I actually thought he was choking and Tyrion was going to save him by slamming the goblet into his back!

I have no idea who it could be.  Cant be Sansa, she had this confused look and the way Sir Dontus told her to come was like telling someone that wasn't party to the plot.

Not Tyrion of course.  He was just the unlucky sap caught holding the poisoned chalice.

Was thinking Margaery herself, but it doesn't seem to help her since Tomlin is now going to be king. Loris is the only Tyrell I can see that would have reason to do it.

The Dornish prince is the obvious answer after last weeks threat.

Doesn't seem like a Varys move.

Has me completely stumped really.  Sir Dontus is our only lead.

[DirewolfPup]

Are we calling this the Gold Wedding?  Or just the Happy Wedding?

I like Blue Wedding for the color of Joffrey's face ;)

[stillshimpy]

redrum..redrum..REDRUM!!!

Shimpy's a warg! Or maybe a Child of the Forest!!!

Shouldn't that be "tihsgip! TIHSGIP!" ?

if The Fool ended up being responsible for finall offing Joffrey. ALL HAIL THE FOOL! Pass me some grog, I'm feeling a bit off of wine for some reason.

*hands over grog* So throughout that death scene, I kept expecting someone to rush forward and save Joffrey because characters I dislike that much never, ever, ever die. Sometimes they even come back to life (I watch scifi a lot).

As excited as I am for this, and actually honestly glad that Jack Gleeson doesn't have to spend time trying to pretend to be Joffrey any longer, I do worry what this will mean for Sansa. Clearly whoever did this -- and I don't think there's any way in the world it was Sansa -- Dontos was involved in some way, shape or form.

Also, just on a sidenote: Now I can turn my full attention to loathing Bolton and Ramsay with sidebars into really actively disliking Stannis. I am so not down with the "burn people alive" thing he has going on. That scene with Ramsay hunting that girl through the woods was only slightly tempered by "Hey, isn't that one of the women who helped seduce Theon right before Ramsay started making permanent Theon alterations?" So you'd think other girl Archer would perhaps twig to the fact that Ramsay will someday be sending dogs after her. Who is that horrible creature? Does she matter?

I want to feel sorry for Theon. No person could EVER deserve this, but man alive, kill yourself, dude. Seriously, that's part of what just frustrates me about him. Want out of this? You were holding a razor, you doof. It's also hard to pity anyone that just keeps making the situation worse. I understand, anyone subjected to that insane torture, would likely become that Igor-like thing, but Theon is actively making it worse. Yes, he looks pained when he hears about Robb's death. He should. Then he blabs out information about Rickon and Bran that is, to the best of his knowledge, accurate.

I feel for the guy, but JUMP OFF THE ROOF or something, Theon.

[Overwhelming No]

[vinnie]

Just checked out the Jewel theory and I agree the left most pendant appears to be missing the jewel and that seems to be the one Olenna plays with.  Seems pretty sound that the necklace was a plant to get poison to the wedding on someone that could be made a scapegoat of if they were found with it on them.

I guess they can try to marry Margaery to Tommen.

[Quickbeam]

Sansa for the win. I thought it was her. She's got all the rage, all it would take would be opportunity which she had. I do feel like the only person alive who watches this show in a perpetual state of confusion. "Who is that?"....I got all the primary people down but the secondaries still confound me. 

Poster upthread with a death list? Priceless.

Joffrey's death was really well done. Well acted, great make-up. 

[Isazouzi]

I watched it in stop motion, frame by frame.  You can clearly see Lady Olenna grab and pull the gem on the right side of the necklace.  When you next see Sansa, head-on, there is a gem missing from the design. 

You're right! I rewatched the scenes with the necklace in episodes 1 and 2 and she does take a gem. What are the Tyrells plotting? I don't get what they're getting out of Joffrey's death politically. I could see them trying to foster trouble amidst the Lannisters, but like I've said, if Tyrion is blamed, it will hardly break up the family.

The one who will be blamed, though, if the necklace role in this is ever discovered, is Sansa. And why would the Tyrells do that to that poor girl? Are they that ruthless? I can't believe it.

I don't understand it, but I'm loving it!

Edited April 14, 2014 by Isazouzi

[MrMicrophone]

Const,

it's also saying that women and eunuchs can't be craven for using poison (presumably because Men Should Use Swords)

[DirewolfPup]

 

 

If I recall correctly, Ned said that poison is a woman's weapon and Pycelle responded, women, cravens and eunuchs, that is, anyone who isn't a "man".

Of course, saying poison is a craven's weapon is a bit circular. A craven is someone who is cowardly because he uses poison, and he uses poison because he's a craven.

Anyone who isn't a man by Westeros standards. So how about a bi-sexual man from Dorne?

[janjan]

Perhaps they think they can marry Maregery to Tommen instead?  Waiting until the after the wedding ceremony does make Maregery the widowed Queen.

Great idea! And that explains why they didn't wait for consumation. Henry VIII married his older brother's widow (Catherine of Aragon), but only after getting the Pope or somebody to certify that her marriage to the bro had never been consumated. (Don't ask me how the Pope would know.) If it had, Henry's marriage to her would have been incestuous, which would not be good PR. Being married to Tommen (who did look more grown up this season) would make Margie The Queen, not just a piddly Queen Regent.

And kudos to the poster above who proposed that the Fool was in league with the Tyrells to make it happen. He did insist that Sansa wear that necklace, and it all follows from there.

[PatsyStone]

Ahhhh. That was so deeply satisfying. See ya Joff! I had absolutely NO idea it was coming and it was glorious! Glorious! Even when he was choking, at first I thought it was all an act, like it was all part of his grand spectacle of humiliation. I thought he'd end up spinning around to face all the horrified (and relieved) onlookers, laughing his evil little laugh, and relishing in the thought that they would all be absurd enough to believe someone would have the audacity to murder the King! I was so happy that wasn't the case. 

I need to re-watch the Olenna/Sansa necklace scene. If what is being speculated is the case, I think Olenna and Dontos hatched the plan but Sansa was unaware of her part in the grand scheme. Dontos's mysterious return and his gift to Sansa all make sense now. I thought there was something odd about that exchange in last week's episode.

I did have the slightest suspicion that it could have been Cersei. There was a split second there, while she was looking down at the bloated, bleeding Joffrey, where I thought I saw a thin smile pass over her lips. 

Oh man! I can't wait to see where all of this is headed!

[MrMicrophone]

IF one of the Tyrells did it, it was Olenna behind it. It has to Mean Something that spitballers don't even remember the Name of the Lord of Highgarden. (Also, wasn't she just a bit against throwing in with the Lannisters in the first place?)

[janjan]

Mr. Microphone: IF one of the Tyrells did it, it was Olenna behind it. It has to Mean Something that spitballers don't even remember the Name of the Lord of Highgarden. (Also, wasn't she just a bit against throwing in with the Lannisters in the first place?)

"The Oaf," his mother calls him. And she (Olenna) compared him to his father, her late husband, who rode his horse over a cliff while watching a falcon. She made it clear that seeking an alliance with the Lannisters was a lot like watching that falcon.

Edited April 14, 2014 by janjan

[stillshimpy]

Tommen hasn't even hit puberty, so it would be a bit odd to try and marrying him off to the already married off twice with no consummation being the claim, Margaery.

Since she'd already been married to the person who -- for official purposes -- was actually Joffrey's Uncle (on paper, at least) I doubt they've got in mind a Hot Potato scenario where they just toss her to the next King.

We know Lady Olenna was actually not thrilled with the heir to High Garden being forced to marry Cersei, but there's just no real benefit to killing Joffrey for the Tyrells, even though it would be clear that the marriage was not Consummated.

In the case of Catherine of Aragon being married to Arthur, Henry's brother, Arthur had been ill, sickly and weak for quite some time and Catherine's word was believed because she had such a saintly reputation and there was a lot of doubt as to whether or not he could have consummated the marriage. However, the marriage to Henry VIII was actually annulled (it was not a divorce) eventually on the grounds of Henry claiming that he now believed the marriage to have been incestuous. The pope wouldn't grant the annulment, so that led to the break with Rome.

So if they were going for that scenario, they already did it with "Renly and I never..."

Other than realizing, "he's a madman that can't be trusted for long" there just shouldn't be any "win" for the Tyrells here, other than Loras not having to marry Cersei. Margaery was almost too old for Joffrey as it was and Tommen hasn't hit puberty yet.

In terms of a power structure move, only Tywin or Cersei make anything resembling sense. Cersei because she'd lost what hold she had over Joffrey long ago...and she didn't want to be married off to Loras and Tywin because...well, actually Tywin doesn't make much sense.

However, I don't have a hard time believing that Cersei would kill Joffrey....he was considered an adult in that world, he'd done things specifically to ruin her reputation (like having all Rober's illegitimate children killed and leaving his mother with the blame) and she knew she was one wedding night away from having her entire end game spoiled. Plus, she knew he was a monster.

So I can see Cersei deciding it was necessary and even manipulating Dontos into helping through some cat's paw , but I can't see her making it hurt that damned much. That's the one I have trouble believing.

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abcfsk]

Ahah I was thinking with the gloomy music overlay and all, 'this suuure smells funny, like that other thoroughly crashed wedding' and with the episode nearing the end I was pretty positive something major would go down. Oh my. 

(I leave this place for a few days and suddenly many threads!)

Sidenote: Dorne - the place to be? If I'm booking Air Joffrey tickets right now, I'm heading for Dorne, where the novel idea that abuse is not OK seems to be widely accepted, at least according to our friend with the bastard wife. I'm sure if the show ever takes us there we will find reasons why that place too is made up of many truly vile creatures, though. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by abcfsk

[arry the orphan]

 I officially give up my theory that it was Pycelle. Damn, I really want the old goat to do something beside being a useless perv. But the above picture with Olenna Tyrell taking the jewel is very convincing evidence. And thinking about it Olenna really has the best motive to do it. She wants more than just Margaery becoming Queen. Queen means nothing when the Lannisters are in control of everything in Kings Landing (King, Hand of the King, Master of Coin, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and.... Cersei, Mother of Madness going to marry Loras and wrecking havoc in Highgarden). Its really a bad deal for House Tyrell and not worth subjecting Margaery to the whims of a sadistic king.

So why implicating Sansa in the whole thing? Firstly, to get her firmly on the Tyrell side. By making her a accessory for murder she has no choice but remain loyal to the Tyrells and she might even thank them for being a part in the revenge for her fathers death. After all it was Sansa who warned Olenna about Joffrey (He is a monster). And they still believe that Sansa is the key to the North, that was stolen by Tywin when he forced Tyrion to marry her.

 

Secondly, Sansa's involvement implicates Tyrion, her husband, even further. (Although they could have hardly known that Joffrey would abuse him as cup bearer, unless Margaery suggested it earlier in private to Joffrey). Nonetheless I believe the Tyrells are aiming at the position of Master of Coin! Remember that Olenna insisted on talking to Tywin about the Iron Bank and their debts to it? Something along the lines of "You will need my help to pay them back!". House Tyrell is the second most wealthiest House! With Tyrion out of the way, I am betting that a Tyrell is going to become the next Master of Coin and they finally have a seat in the King's Council which could be more important than a Queen, whose only job it is to provide him with children. My bet is on Lord Oaf becoming Master of Coin with Olenna secretly in charge of the realms finances.

Edited April 14, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Isazouzi]

 the already married off twice with no consummation being the claim, Margaery.

Surely she'll get a nice nickname after being married to 2 dead kings. She's bad luck, a different kind of Kingslayer.

[DirewolfPup]

Surely she'll get a nice nickname after being married to 2 dead kings. She's bad luck, a different kind of Kingslayer.

We joked about what would happen to Maergery if Joffrey died back on TWoP. I think we settled on Black Widow.

[Pallas]

We joked about what would happen to Maergery if Joffrey died back on TWoP. I think we settled on Black Widow.

Black Rose.  

[90PercentGravity]

"Queen for a Day"

[izabella]

Woohooo!  Joffs is dead!  I loathed him and was thrilled he died, but feel bad that Tyrion looks like he'll be taking the blame.

I've been reading all the theories on who might have poisoned Joffrey, but I'm not leaning toward anyone yet.  Tyrion wouldn't have planned the cup-bearer thing, so I'm counting him out.  I feel like there's no way Sansa would have done it, meek as she is.  She'd never be bold enough to try such at thing at this point.  Tywin, eh, he won't kill a Lannister King if he wouldn't even kill baby dwarf Tyrion.  The Tyrells, maybe, but I would not have expected it before The Queen produced an heir.

That leaves me with Cersei.  I think she is evil enough, and knows her way around poisons and those who might procure some for her.  But I kind of feel like she wouldn't kill her own son.

But, what if Cersei wanted to kill Margaery and poisoned Joffrey accidentally instead?  I could totally see her wanting to kill Margaery.  She seemed horrified at Joffrey's death, and it seems reasonable she'd react that way if she was expecting Marg to die and Joffs bit it instead.  And Cersei seemed all smiley and happy during much of Joffrey's antics during the reception, as well as countering Margaery's plan to feed the poor with the wedding leftovers.  So that leads me to believe she might have expected something to happen to Margaery.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

We finally got a look at Roose Bolton's wife -- the Frey daughter whose dowry was her weight in silver.

I'll have to watch again to be sure, but didn't Roose introduce Ramsey to her? Like they've never met before? Huh?  Granted, Roose isn't as likely as Ned was to raise a Snow in his own household, but how could they never have met? Methinks it was exposition, to tell us viewers that the obese lady was indeed Mrs. Roose.

They were just recently wed as it was mentioned by Catelyn at the RW as if it was recent news. So Ramsay had indeed never met his step mother. I think Roose referred to her as a "fat young bride" in the convo with Cat.

My theory on JoffreyGate: I am thinking it was the Tyrell women. Yes, they have a lot to lose if the marriage doesn't go through, but Joffrey has a much kinder younger brother who could be a good plan B put forth by the Lannisters in order to cement the deal between their houses. WHy would you allow your granddaughter to marry an unstable psychopath when taking him out might lead to a marriage to his sane younger brother--as long as you don't get caught. If someone else takes teh blame, Tywin will still want to unite their Houses. Olenna was pushing hard to point out to Tywin that he could still use the Tyrells' wealth as the kingdom is sitll in debt to the Iron Bank of Braavos even if the war is over! So the match would stil be advantageous. As far as "wouldn't they want there to be an heir first before killing Joffrey" - Waiting 9+mos could be dangerous if Joffrey were to decide he didn't like Margaery after all or perhaps Marg was worried he wasnt as interested in "making a child" as he was with shooting things and who knows how long it would take to conceive an heir? What if she had a daughter? or 2 or 3? Much safer to move to Plan B - Tommen.

[marcee]

Funny that he named his sword "Widow's Wail"...

Edited April 14, 2014 by Which Tyler
Unhidden as Marcee has passed our test for unsullied-ness

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Either that or some other weird thing entirely; I can't seem to shake the Knight Fool giving Sansa that gift in the previous episode and then showing up for her right away in this one.  But I can't quite decide what it means (poison was in the gift, an antidote to keep Sansa safe was in the gift, he's just in on the plot, whatever).

The gift may have just been a plot device to give him some reason to approach her and remind us all of his existence and why he would bother to save her in a pinch. The necklace itself may not have any significance to the plot. She saved his life, now he's going to save hers, but since we hadn't seen him in 2 yrs they had to jog our memory somehow.

Loras won my admiration forever for his smackdown of Jaime.

This episode was tense from start to finish, WAY more going on than last week which seemed like a stroll in the Park of Westeros. This one, I was fearful that something bad was going to happen for over half the episode. I can't even begin to tell you how many bizarre thoughts went throught my head about what might happen in the next few moments during that wedding. I was expecting a Shae-kabob or a dwarf massacre (was so afraid Joff would order them to start really killing each other and that they would reluctantly comply)

I for one think Shae DID make it out of KL safely just because they were dropping so many anvils that she never would. Excellent misdirect, if so, because I expected the "primary entertainment" to somehow involve Shae's bad end. Although I did say last week that I almost expect that she wont' die just because it seemed so obvious that she would.

[Overwhelming No]

No thoughts on why Sansa doesn't wear the nacklace? I guess since that thing is quite important, I don't think it could be a continuity error. They wouldn't be that careless. It has to mean something important.

Can't make a screenshot, for some reason it's all black if I save it. You can get a good look at it at 16:27.

That was before the wedding, at the pre-feast.  Sansa is in a different dress and has a different hairstyle, so one presumes she saved the necklace for the wedding and post-celebration.

 

Also, it's highly possible we'll never know who/what killed Joffrey.  I just pointed out something I noticed after trying to connect the dots with Dontos, the necklace, etc.  It could mean nothing! 

Edited April 14, 2014 by Boo

[MrMicrophone]

Shimpy,

In those days, the Pope would annul any marriage without offspring (for royals, anyhow, and one presumes with some sort of cash incentive for the Church). The only reason why he didn't annul Catherine of Aragon's marriage to the King of England was that her brother was literally armed and on the Pope's doorstep, and would have considered that an excellent reason to attack.

The King of England wrote the pope a good few times, trying to get him to annul the marriage. 

[Llywela]

Hello. I was Indeg on Twop, only posted a few times but a few of you might remember me. I mostly lurk and don't expect to post much here, but I just wanted to say that I rewatched the episode after reading all the spec here and was struck by a few meaningful shots of Olenna - mostly during the wedding feast, but also during the ceremony, in particular the camera lingering on her in the background just as the...master of ceremonies (seriously, what do they call the guy who conducts weddings in Westeros?) got to the bit about a curse on anyone who divides the happy couple, or some such, I forget the exact words. But it seemed awfully potentous, in hindsight. There were a few shots like that, as well as Olenna taking the jewel from Sansa's necklace, which all seem very suspicious. But I don't know what her motive would be, other than to save Margaery from having to go through with being married to Joffrey - but the Tyrells have gone to such trouble to get Margaery married to The King, it seems an awful waste of effort for any of them to be involved in killing Joffrey at this stage.

Come to that, I'm not sure what anyone's motive would be, beyond blind hate. Plenty of people hate Joffrey enough to want him dead, but most of those with a particular grudge against him also seem to have potentially too much to lose to risk it.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Llywela

[stillshimpy]

I'm familiar with the history, MrMicrophone, but thank you. There was more to it than that. Doesn't matter as that's history and the show is the show. It's a period of history that tends to have multiple interpretations.

So Dorne's illegitimate children have the last name Sand and the North's children have the last name Snow Jeez, I'd personally try to move to Dorne if it were up to me.

I rewatched Bran's visions very closely and I don't think I recognize whoever is speaking, but aside from the dead horse walking, I don't recognize the man in rags either.

I wonder if we've finally found Benjen Stark? Or if Bran is about to? Who else could that be?

[izabella]

The facts: Dontos gives Sansa the necklace and assures that she'll be wearing it at the wedding.

How did Dontos assure that Sansa would wear it to the wedding?  I don't imagine that Sansa has a lot of jewelry to choose from, but that still wouldn't be a guarantee that she would wear it at the wedding or anywhere.  She might have just hidden it away so no one would see it and ask where she got it from.

Are we sure that was the necklace Dontos gave her?

[Isazouzi]

How did Dontos assure that Sansa would wear it to the wedding?  I don't imagine that Sansa has a lot of jewelry to choose from, but that still wouldn't be a guarantee that she would wear it at the wedding or anywhere.  She might have just hidden it away so no one would see it and ask where she got it from.

Are we sure that was the necklace Dontos gave her?

Yes, it's the same necklace.

[Pallas]

I wonder if we've finally found Benjen Stark? Or if Bran is about to? Who else could that be?

 

Yippee!!!  From your lips to the Tree's leaves, shimpy.  One Stark restored!

Or...oh god, I truly did not think of this until about to post -- perhaps it is not Jon but Bran who will find his uncle turned into a zomboni, and...

Edited April 14, 2014 by Pallas

[Overwhelming No]

If it's not *the* necklace, it's an exact copy of the one we saw in the last episode, so I presume it's the same one. 

Maybe they just took a gamble on her wearing it.  She didn't say she'd wear it to the wedding, but said she'd "wear it with pride."

[AngelKitty]

Regardless of the evidence presented, I'm going with my first gut reaction that it's Cersei.  It just seems to me that she has the most to gain by Joffrey's death before the marriage is consummated.  And let's face it, she really is a crazy person.

[izabella]

Of course he couldn't be one hundred percent sure. But why wouldn't she wear it? It was the only thing to put a smile on her face since she got the news of the other wedding and saving Dontos was one of the very few things she did that she could be proud of. You don't have to be a psychologist to know that she most likely will wear it at a presumably emotionally quite horrible event, to have at least something to hold onto.

If it's not *the* necklace, it's an exact copy of the one we saw in the last episode, so I presume it's the same one. 

Maybe they just took a gamble on her wearing it.  She didn't say she'd wear it to the wedding, but said she'd "wear it with pride."

See, if I were Sansa, I would avoid wearing it to avoid any possibility of it catching Joffrey or Cersei's attention.  What would she say if they commented on it and asked where she got it?  Joffrey would probably want to kill her for accepting a gift from a Fool he almost killed.  And Cersei would be the first to tell him if she was the one who found out where it came from.

As for using the necklace for a plot to kill Joffrey, it seems like the Tyrells would have come up with a more certain plot than one that hinged entirely on Sansa wearing it.  I mean, she could have chosen to wear something that Tyrion had given her, or anything, really. 

[janjan]

I'm still going with the Olenna & Dontos scheme to Off the Joff. BUT, it does seem a little over-engineered. Why take a chance that Sansa might not wear the necklace, or that Olenna couldn't get the gem loose without Sansa noticing? If Olenna wanted to bring poison to the wedding, she could just do it. It's not like the Westeros TSA is gonna strip-search her.

[Mya Stone]

This Forum is for Unsullied Members to post in: those who have vowed to not only not read the books, but also to not watch previews, read information on the Viewer's Guide, or seek any information outside of what has been IN THE EPISODES ONLY.
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Thank you for your cooperation.

[Glory]

What if Ollena took the gem for use another day? She could plant it somewhere else to make it look like Sansa was involved in...anything. Geoffrey's murder or another plot entirely.

[Coxfires]

I thought Sansa could be the one doing it because of Bran's dream. I might misinterprete it, but wasn't it a wolf killing a fawn/young stag? Considering how proeminent those animals are as representations of the Houses, I think that is no coincidence. I'm not sure Sansa has it in her, but she changed a lot and the Red Wedding took a huge toll on her.

[izabella]

I thought Sansa could be the one doing it because of Bran's dream. I might misinterprete it, but wasn't it a wolf killing a fawn/young stag? Considering how proeminent those animals are as representations of the Houses, I think that is no coincidence. I'm not sure Sansa has it in her, but she changed a lot and the Red Wedding took a huge toll on her.

I don't think that was a "dream."  To me, it seemed like Bran had Warged into Summer, and Summer killed the deer for food.

[Coxfires]

I don't think that was a "dream."  To me, it seemed like Bran had Warged into Summer, and Summer killed the deer for food.

 

Oh I see, I overanalyzed it! But really, as soon as I saw this dead fawn, I took it as an omen and thought "Jeoffrey is toast" (well, the fact that Melissandre's leeches burned last year kinda pushed me towards it). I didn't think it would be that soon, though.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Coxfires

[janjan]

I want to burn Melissandra and her leeches and Stannis and his dingbat wife and the Lord of Light (except for bringing back Ser Beric - that was nice) and that whole boring plot line. And I was so afraid Mel was going to hurt Shireen (sp? - Stannis's daughter). If she did, I'd jump in the story and strangle her myself.

Theon/Reekie looked defeated when the dogs tore up the hunted girl, but he looked momentarily thoughtful when he had a razor to Ramsey's throat, and again when Roose admitted killing Robb. He'll no doubt get even more thoughtful if Ramsey kills Yara. Betcha at some point Theon is gonna grow a pair (metaphorically only) and kill the Boltons, possibly to save the Stark boys.

I shudder to think that was Benjen in rags on the dead horse. His horse went back to Castle Black, so where would he get another one? It's not like the meadows beyond the Wall could support much of a grazing population. Yeah, dead horses don't graze, but they have to be alive at some point to be dead now. Please Show, please bring Benjen back alive. And somebody help that poor horse.

[stillshimpy]

I shudder to think that was Benjen in rags on the dead horse. His horse went back to Castle Black, so where would he get another one?

The figure in rags wasn't on the dead horse though.  We just saw it in profile.  It could mean the figure in rags is surrounded, or held captive too.  I don't think a) that person is dead, he looked fully fleshed and a normal color b) I don't know if that could be Benjen or not but do we even think that the Ice Zombies have any personality or ability to speak left?  

I know Ygritte [edited, actually, turns out it was Osha) talked about someone she was with coming back from the dead like that, but I don't think he was still him, was he?  So I'm not sure who the ragged figure could be, but I think he's alive and here's something to think about to: he talked to Bran through one of Bran's religious symbols.  That doesn't necessarily mean "evil" despite the Zomponi. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

I know Ygritte talked about someone she was with coming back from the dead like that, but I don't think he was still him, was he?

That was Osha, wasn't it? When he came back, she knew it wasn't still him. That's when she ran for the Wall and as far south as South goes.

[stillshimpy]

I'm sorry, you're right.  I mixed up my Wildling women there for a moment. It was Osha, not Ygritte. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Chris Ashe]

So Dorne's illegitimate children have the last name Sand and the North's children have the last name Snow Jeez, I'd personally try to move to Dorne if it were up to me.

 

Ah, her last name is Sand. I kept thinking she said San and I couldn't work out the context of the conversation after that, thanks for clearing that up!

[90PercentGravity]

Hiding poison in Sansa's necklace seems awfully convoluted. It's not like they were being strip searched. Margery has plenty of cleavage to hide things in. If that's indeed where GRRM went/is going then I would be utterly disappointed. Too many things that could go wrong. They'd have to hire someone who could construct such a thing, get Ser Dantos in on it, hope and pray Sansa actually wore the necklace, snatch the jewel right in front of the whole crowd and slip it into the goblet and hope that no one saw any of it. It makes zero sense to me. It would be much easier for Margery to stick a vial of nightshade (or whatever) in her cleavage and then slip it into the drink (or Olena stick in that thing she wears on her head). It doesn't add up.

The person who has the most to gain from Joffrey's death is probably Cersei, but then why wouldn't she just poison Margery? Too obvious?

Maybe Pod did it on his own?

What other things could have poisoned him if not the pie or the wine? Maybe something on the hilt of the sword? Did Tywin touch it when he presented it?