S04.E02: The Lion And The Rose

[David T. Cole]

I usually put a synopsis of the episode here. Awkward. I've set it to open at 10ET / 7PT in case you were wondering what that clock icon meant.

[90PercentGravity]

OMFG! I did not think Joffrey would go out this early. Who had "at the wedding with a goblet of poison wine"?

I'm thinking it was Cersei. She had to dispatch him before he made Margaery the official Queen. Since Margaery didn't get to seal the deal, I am assuming Cersei will remain Queen?

[Snowblack]

OMG.  Yessssssssssssssssssssss, finally!  Finally!

But...who did it? I think everyone except Tyrion is a candidate.  :)

[AimingforYoko]

I love this show. It gives you what you want, in the worst possible way. We lose Joffrey, but it looks like that little shit might take Tyrion with him.

[90PercentGravity]

I totally did not see that coming. I thought maybe he'd go out on the wedding night, but not at the wedding. Word to the wise, do not ever go to a wedding in this world.

Poor Reek. Keep pushing him Ramsey Snow, keep pushing him.

So, Brienne does love Jaime? Interesting.

Oberyn confirms that Myracell is basically safe.

I like Shae, but when Tyrion Ben'ed her, I didn't feel anything at all.

[annsterg]

Was that Jack Gleeson singing the Rains of Castamere over the ending credits?!

Brienne does love Jaime, but not the way Cersei thinks...Cersei is so twisted she can't understand it.

I don't think Shae made it out of Kings Landing... that was way too easy.

Good on Sansa helping Tyrion with the cup.

[justawatcher]

Wow. Wasn't expecting that.

I would be more in line with Cersei poisoning Margery's wine before Joffrey's. Then she still is queen. She knew she was still going to be queen when she changed the leftover thing. I didn't get that at the time. Did he get the wrong wineglass?

[Snowblack]

So what does this mean?  Joffrey died without an heir.  Does Margaery get to stay queen?  Somehow, I think she's the queen, but Tommen is the king now?

[annsterg]

Tommen would be the king -- he's the next male heir of Robert Baratheon. Unless Tywin moves to take the throne.

[capt planet]

Ho-lee cow.  Okay, whoever did it was sitting at the table where the cup was placed.  I'm thinking Tywin or Lady Tyrell.

I love how the whole wedding scene set up the idea that any and everyone would have motive to hurt Joffrey.  Here we have a classic, tension-filled whodunnit, and last week was essentially a shootout at the saloon.  This season is doing a cool job of adding elements from other genres.

Also, the Lord of Light talk got me thinking.  If there is indeed a Lord of Light and a Lord of Darkness, then perhaps these creepy folks are worshipping the evil one rather than the good one.  Then, maybe the Brotherhood (or whoever, the guys who resurrect each other, I think that's the Brotherhood) are worshipping the good one.  I'm sure this was discussed in the old thread, but now that it's been explicitly stated there are two gods in their view, it makes me wonder which really provides Mel's powers.

Speaking of gods, I wonder if Bran's vision at the tree confirms their gods are "real" within this universe as well.

Edited April 14, 2014 by capt planet

[stillshimpy]

What the hell?  When David T. Cole asked if it was okay to put up episode titles for the Unsullied, I said something like "as long as it isn't 'Joffrey dies at long freaking last' I can't imagine it will matter." 

Holy buckets! Sound the damned trumpets!!!! Joffrey died at long freaking last, and poor Jack Gleeson is free!! Free! Free! But who killed him?  

Also, is Ramsay headed to where poor Rickon is? 

[hobbers]

Wow. Gone so early! First time they've really done this. That end face wasn't pretty and to top it all we have a whodunit on our hands. (Well we actually don't cause it was clearly Benjen Stark, the sneaky bastard). Seriously though, necklace fool had to be in on this, probably put something in that food.

Overall I thought this was a really good episode with interesting interactions happening all over place. Papa Roose's homecoming gave a needed refreshment to Ramsey's character (he's talking to people without torturing them!) and sets up what the North is going to be about this season, which was a complete wildcard beforehand. And watch out Rickon and John, Locke is coming!!

[Snowblack]

High points were Oberyn vs. Lannisters and Loras vs. Jaime. The Shae and Tyrion scene was painful to watch. And I'm very curious to see whether Shae is really gone.

I'm most curious about what Joffrey's death means for the kingdom. Obviously Margaery is the queen, but that's an empty title and Tommen will be king.  If that's the case, my initial reaction is that Cersei is responsible for the poisoning. That explains what she got from Qyburn and why she sent Pycelle away. I assume she would be Queen Regent again until Tommen comes of age. The same reasoning would point to Tywin, even though I don't think it was him.

Otherwise, I think the Tyrells, although I'm not sure what the point would be from a political perspective. Margaery doesn't gain anything. Then again, she doesn't end up in scary Joff's clutches. *shudder*

Team Stannis will think the leech actually had something to do with this.

[capt planet]

What did Tywin say to Cersei when she told him about Shae?

[stillshimpy]

Well, but Dontos actually seemed to know that something had happened that Tyrion might be blamed for, didn't he? 

[90PercentGravity]

Good point about Margery possibly being the intended target.

Here is my suspect list, assuming that Joffrey was the actual target:

Cersei Lannister

Why she would do it: She loves power more than anything, including her own kids.

Why she wouldn't do it: Maybe she does love her kids more than power.

Tywin Lannister

Why he'd do it: He hates Joffrey and knows he is unpredictable and dangerous.

Why he wouldn't do it: ???

Sansa Lannister

Why she'd do it: Why wouldn't she?

Why she wouldn't do it: Come on, she's Sansa.

Possible evidence: Ser Dantos telling her to leave, maybe he saw her do it. Tyrion may have procured some nightshade for her, as he offered.

Tyrion Lannister

Why he'd do it: He hates Joffrey. He wants to avenge his wife's family. Joffrey has humiliated him many times.

Why he wouldn't do it: He's not dumb enough to kill him right in front of everyone.

Possible evidence: We've seen him procure nightshade and he mentioned getting some for Sansa.

Oberyn Martell

Why he'd do it: Revenge

Why he wouldn't do it: Long distance poisoning would probably not satisfy him as much as split the little shit in two.

Margery Tyrell-Lannister

Why she'd do it: To avoid having to screw the fucker.

Why she wouldn't do it: Him dying before she has an heir may mean she won't get to be The Queen.

Possible evidence: She handed him the pie and while we are all assuming it was the wine, it could have been the pie.

Jaime Lannister

Why he'd do it: Joffrey has been a dick toward him and Jaime is the Kingslayer.

Why he wouldn't do it: Just doesn't seem likely, imo.

Ser Dantos

Why he'd do it: Joffrey almost killed him, has disgraced him, and is an all around shit.

Why he wouldn't do it: He's not very brave.

Possible evidence: His urging Sansa to come with him suggests he knew Joffrey was dying before it was clear to everyone else.

Some random Volantin

Why they'd do it: Avenge Talisa Stark.

Why they wouldn't do it: No reason I can think of.

Shae

Why she'd do it: To eliminate the threat against her and her lion.

Why she wouldn't do it: Well, she might be on a Pentos-bound ship.

 

I can think of some other random folks, but this is my main suspect list. If I were going to add someone, it would probably be Varys.

In modern criminology, poisoning is usually done by women, but that may not stand in this world.

Edited April 14, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[90PercentGravity]

I mentioned this in the spec thread, but maybe Ser Dantos wanted to usher her away because he saw her spike the wine. Tyrion did offer to get her some nightshade.

[stillshimpy]

God, that's a good point.  I wonder if Sansa could have possibly done this?  It's so un-Starkian?  I thought maybe it might have been Cersei, what with her flouting Margaery's orders so confidently. Also, Cersei knows who Joffrey was and she didn't want him to marry Margaery.  If Tommen is now King, then Cersei once again has some power.  

I am reeling because I specc'd that Tywin might have Joffrey killed, specifically for that reason.  Could it have been Tywin? 

Also, what the holy hell did Bran see in the Face Tree?!? 

What a bizarre episode.  I was expecting a bridge episode, not "Holy shit, everything you thought would happen in season two just happened in one episode" .  

Holy crap, poor Margaery just lost another king before making the marriage official.  She has the black widow King's Curse! 

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Snowblack]

What did Tywin say to Cersei when she told him about Shae?

I watch with subtitles.  Lol.  He said to have her brought to the Tower of the Hand before the wedding.

[stillshimpy]

Ooooh, I hope that freaking Shae got on that boat.  Tyrion would seriously confess to murdering Joffrey to try and save Shae, wouldn't he? 

I think Tywin did this.  There were very few cuts to him throughout for reaction shots, but I can't imagine Tywin giving a damn about sparing Sansa, so I'm still struggling with Dontos knowing that Sansa needed to get the hell out of Dodge, right then and there.  

[Mya Stone]

Moved some posts from the Speculation thread to the episode thread. Let's try to keep the commentary about the episode we just watched to the episode thread, and the speculation thread for things that weren't in the episode. It's a learning curve for us all! :)

[Zanne]

In modern criminology, poisoning is usually done by women, but that may not stand in this world.

 

Please forgive my lack of knowing names, but I think in an earlier episode the Mockingbird guy was insulting the Eunuch guy by saying that poison was only used by women and men without dicks (to paraphrase). So it seems to hold true in this world, as well.

[stillshimpy]

Possible evidence: Ser Dantos telling her to leave, maybe he saw her do it. Tyrion may have procured some nightshade for her, as he offered.

But Sansa would be more likely to try to kill him with a dagger, rather than any planning beforehand.  Dontos did try to get her to leave, but Sansa looked confused as to why, whereas if she knew the King was about to croak, she'd have look less baffled.  

It doesn't fit with any of the Tyrell needs, Margaery needed to have the possibility of an heir before she'd kill him.  There was a weird scene though, in which Jaime sort of randomly threatened Loras and said that even if Loras managed to impregnate Cersei, she'd kill the child before it could be born, or something like that.  

We saw Cersei ready to poison Tommen in the past.  She would kill her child if she thought killing him would be for the best. 

[Pallas]

Joffrey's death is the primary entertainment!

[stillshimpy]

After we'd all worried and speculated what Joffrey meant by the primary entertainment, I full-body cringed when that's Lion's head mouth opened and the red carpet rolled out.  I was shielding my eye and saying "Oh god, no, what now?"  and then was relatively relieved when it turned out to be something just spectacularly tacky and petty.  

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Tywin or Cersei as the Joffrey murderers.  As for Margaery being the target, perhaps.  I'm still a little troubled by the fact that Cersei and Tywin would both have killed Tyrion long before this if he wasn't a Lannister.  So it's hard to believe that Tywin could have made peace with the need to murder his own.  Cersei stood more to lose.  

God, I thought Tommen would be in danger from Joffrey.  Another spitball bites the dust. 

[90PercentGravity]

Maybe it was SmokeBaby Baratheon. Bow to the power of the penis leech.

[Shadowlass]

We saw Cersei ready to poison Tommen in the past.  She would kill her child if she thought killing him would be for the best. 

That was going to be a mercy killing, basically, to save him from what the invading forces would do to him--a pretty far cry from killing Joffrey so she could hold onto her influence. God knows, though, she likes being queen.

After the pie was sliced there was an extended shot of the open pie. Even before I got to the end and saw how it shook out, I rewound that weird, meaningful pie shot three times. I never did see anything, but it was a very peculiar shot.

I can't imagine it was Margaery--she looked too disgusted during various points of the celebration. If she knew he was going to die she would have been better able to maintain a pleasant expression, knowing he was going to get his ASAP.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Shadowlass

[90PercentGravity]

After the pie was sliced there was an extended shot of the open pie. Even before I got to the end and saw how it shook out, I rewound that weird, meaningful pie shot three times. I never did see anything, but it was a very peculiar shot.

 

That shot was showing a dead dove in the pie. Joffrey cut through one of them when slicing it open. I guess it's bad luck to kill a dove on your wedding day.

I did wonder if that bit of symbolism had anything to do with Sansa, who Cersei always called "Little Dove."

Edited April 14, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[Pallas]

In modern criminology, poisoning is usually done by women, but that may not stand in this world.

Pycelle told Ned early in the first season, that poison is a woman's weapon.

I think Ser Dantos, as the King's Fool, has developed a good sense of when bad shit is about to go down.  Joffrey humiliated Tyrion; Tyrion poured Joffrey wine; Joffrey began to choke; Dantos told Tyrion's wife to get the hell away from the feast.  

Oddly, I don't think it was Cersei.  I really do not see her as someone who would murder her own child.  Not even to spite Margaery; not even to remain Queen Regent.  Cersei may not know what love is, but she believes with all her ego that she loves her children. Yes, when she thought Stannis was at the gates she was about to euthenize Tommen, but I don't see the circumstances as being comparable, not even in Cersei's skewed mind.  

[stillshimpy]

So, at least the "we only see statues of dead people" thing continues! I was so surprised to see a statue of Joffrey last week, because it fully freaks me out that there is no portraiture in this world and that the only statues we see depict the dead.  

Mystery solved! Dead Joffrey, coming up! 

They killed Joffrey!! I can't even begin to believe it.  

Oh and Stannis' wife burned her own brother alive, didn't she?  Stannis still sucks and I thought he was bugging out for the Wall, what the hell? 

ETA:

 

Oddly, I don't think it was Cersei.  I really do not see her as someone who would murder her own child.  Not even to spite Margaery; not even to remain Queen Regent.

]Oh, I think she would murder her own child if she felt it was the only option available to her, but I don't think she'd do so publicly or painfully, which is why I think you're likely right and she didn't kill Joffrey.  I think she is capable of killing her own child, but I don't think she would do it in quite that manner.  

If she did, by some chance? I think she'd make sure it was Margaery who was the main suspect, not Tyrion.

Edited April 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[hyena]

But Sansa would be more likely to try to kill him with a dagger, rather than any planning beforehand.  Dontos did try to get her to leave, but Sansa looked confused as to why, whereas if she knew the King was about to croak, she'd have look less baffled. 

I just watched the episode again, and I thought Sansa looked more shell-shocked than confused. She's my pick for Kingslayer 2.0. Time will tell! Or at least, it might. This seems like the kind of show to leave mysteries hanging to mimic what can happen in the real world, where sometimes we don't get clear answers.

Another thing I noticed on re-watch was the scene with Tyrion and Jaime at the beginning, where Jaime knocks over the wine and then Tyrion pours out his own, saying "it's only wine". Holy foreshadowing.

And... *waves hi*. I've been a lurking Unsullied for a while now. I'm excited to start posting in this nice new habitat!

[David T. Cole]

What the hell?  When David T. Cole asked if it was okay to put up episode titles for the Unsullied, I said something like "as long as it isn't 'Joffrey dies at long freaking last' I can't imagine it will matter." 

You have The Westeros Shining.

[abelard]

Wowza.  Well I must admit, I'm so overjoyed at Joffrey's death that I don't really care what happens to Tyrion.  I mean, I totally totally care but even if Tyrion has to hang (or...worse) for Joffrey's murder, it's worth it to me to have Joffrey dead.  When it happened and he stopped breathing, I threw my arms in the air and shouted "VICTORY!!!!!!"  Everyone I was watching with clapped.

Who did it?  I have no clue.  Sansa did hold the cup for a second before giving it to Tyrion but I just don't think of Sansa as the poisoning type.  The Fool did seem to know what was up way faster than others, so he could perhaps have done it and rushed to get Sansa (to safety I hope?!?!) before the s**t really hit the fan.  Would the Tyrells gain anything by poisoning Joffrey so soon?  I think not - I think they would rather Margery had gotten pregnant first.  

Oberyn Martell comes to mind...But Ned said "Poison is a woman's weapon."  I'm pretty sure it was Ned who said this and not Pycelle, b/c I think after Ned said it (implicating Cersei in Jon Arryn's death), Pycelle said, "And a eunuch's," implicating Varys.  That remark leads me to Sansa...or Cersei???

[90PercentGravity]

I started out thinking it was Cersei, but I am more and more leaning toward Sansa. First, there was the whole conversation about nightshade, nothing on this show is insignificant. Then there is Sansa trying to leave early.

[dramachick]

Finally.

My Death Wish List

1. Joffrey
2. Tywin Lannister
3. Roose Bolton
4. Walder Frey
5. Littlefinger
6. Cersei Lannister
7. Ramsey Snow
8. Stannis Barratheon
9. Melissandra

What an episode.  I was getting seriously depressed until the Great Poisoning happened.  I'm not surprised that Cersei blamed Tyrion for Joffrey's death, but that wine goblet was in front of Lady Olenna!  Poor Tyrion.

Where in the world is Sansa going?  Where is Donto from?  Who is his liege lord?

I don't know how many Ramsey scenes I'll be able to watch.  Ugh.

I want to punch Roose Bolton in his smug face.  The only positive I could glean from the scene with Theon is that he now knows that it was Roose who stabbed Robb, and the reason Theon is still alive is that he's gonna tell.

Loved, loved Prince Oberyn!  "Hello -- not you."

Jaime and Loras:  "You'll never marry her" -- "Neither will you."  Oh snap!

I've got no use for Jaime Lannister.

Stannis, WTF?  And his weirdo wife? That red witch better not lay a hand on Shireen.

Nice direwolf-cam, but apparently Bran has been acting like a warg-fiend. I don't understand why the Face Tree told him to go north.  They're gonna run into the Thenn cannibals!

[Overwhelming No]

Rewatch the part where Lady Oleanna plays with Sansa's hair.  Watch her right hand carefully~ she snatches a jewel off Sansa's necklace.  Later, Marg takes the cup from Jeoffrey's hand and places it on the table in front of Lady Oleanna. I watched it frame by frame.

Also, the lack of continuity during that scene bugs. Lady O's arm is in various places, depending on the shot.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Boo

[abelard]

Oh btw I noticed that in Bran's "tree vision," he saw the throne room in KL with its roof missing and snow coming in.  And this is exactly the same vision that Dany had at the house of the Warlocks in Qarth (she saw the throne room-no roof-snow coming in, then the Wall, then Drogo and the baby).  Therefore, I think that must be a legit premonition/foreshadowing.  So let's say that's definitely going to happen.  What takes the roof off the Red Keep (isn't that what it's called?)?  I'm going to say...dragons.  

[DirewolfPup]

I hope Sansa did it, but I seriously doubt. She's not really the strategic type who could masterfully plan that out. Especially by herself. Maybe Joffery got a chunk of dead dove in his pie and it posioned him. Accidental death?

I like 90%'s call on Cersei calling Sansa her "little dove." Once Joffrey cut the pie, the doves were released symbolizing/foreshadowing Sansa's freedom from Joffrey's evil clutches forever.

[janjan]

David T. Cole: You have The Westeros Shining.

redrum..redrum..REDRUM!!!

Shimpy's a warg! Or maybe a Child of the Forest!!!

The reaction shots of Lady Olenna during the "entertainment" showed her growing more and more disgusted. That's a change from when she initially heard from Sansa that her granddaughter's intended was a monster. That time, she just said, "Oh bother."  But I still don't think she would Off the Joff until after the wedding night, when a subsequent baby could be declared Joffery's rightful heir, no matter who done the begat. Margaery would become Queen Regent, and Tyrells rule.

Bye, Jack Gleeson -- may you continue to astound us in more and greater roles. There's a Hamlet if ever there was one. And the right age for a change.

[abelard]

 

I like 90%'s call on Cersei calling Sansa her "little dove." Once Joffrey cut the pie, the doves were released symbolizing/foreshadowing Sansa's freedom from Joffrey's evil clutches forever.

Oh this is a good call.  I hadn't thought of that.  Fly, little dove, fly fly away!!!!!!!!

I would like someone to tell me wth Theon is still doing alive.  He already spilled the beans on Bran and Rickon still being alive, and keeps spilling more go**amn beans (like talking about Jon Snow at the Wall being the boys' most likely destination).  Now I am so, so grateful that Bran and Rickon split up.  At least Theon doesn't think that Rickon might be headed for the Umbers (and he would have no reason to think Bran and Rickon would separate).  Actually, come to think of it, Bran will also not be at Castle Black, he's already farther north than that.  In any case, I do not think that Ramsey is on his way to either Bran or Rickon.  He seems to be headed to a third location - but will he confront Yara there?  Or will Yara march on the Dreadfort in Ramsey's absence.  I wonder if Bolton will try to go to the Wall to ascertain that the Stark boys are dead or to try to find them in order to kill them.  But Bolton said Tywin gave him the North but no way to win it, so maybe Bolton is off to fight the Greyjoys in one area and Ramsey, another.  

Edited April 14, 2014 by abelard

[janjan]

We finally got a look at Roose Bolton's wife -- the Frey daughter whose dowry was her weight in silver. 

I'll have to watch again to be sure, but didn't Roose introduce Ramsey to her? Like they've never met before? Huh?  Granted, Roose isn't as likely as Ned was to raise a Snow in his own household, but how could they never have met? Methinks it was exposition, to tell us viewers that the obese lady was indeed Mrs. Roose.

[90PercentGravity]

So, I rewatched a bit and it looks like Joffrey was the only one with a gold goblet. Everyone else had glass. So that wine was definitely intended for him.

Actually on further rewatch, it looks like maybe some of the men have gold cups and the women have glass?

Edited April 14, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[millahnna]

I'll have to watch again to be sure, but didn't Roose introduce Ramsey to her? Like they've never met before?

I think he only married her when Frey and he made the deal with the the Lannisters to kill the Starks at the Red Wedding.  I don't think they've been married long at all. 

 

For whatever it's worth, I don't think it was the wine that was poisoned.  Too many other people were drinking fromt eh same caraff Tyrion poured from (could have been Joffrey's cup specifically, but still).  My money is on the pie since not one single person took a bite other than him. 

 

Either that or some other weird thing entirely; I can't seem to shake the Knight Fool giving Sansa that gift in the previous episode and then showing up for her right away in this one.  But I can't quite decide what it means (poison was in the gift, an antidote to keep Sansa safe was in the gift, he's just in on the plot, whatever). 

[FictionIsntReal]

We finally got a look at Roose Bolton's wife -- the Frey daughter whose dowry was her weight in silver. 

I'll have to watch again to be sure, but didn't Roose introduce Ramsey to her? Like they've never met before? Huh?  Granted, Roose isn't as likely as Ned was to raise a Snow in his own household, but how could they never have met? Methinks it was exposition, to tell us viewers that the obese lady was indeed Mrs. Roose.

I think they only recently married on the campaign trail. The Twins are at something like the southern tip of the Riverlands, further away than northmen like the Boltons would usually travel. But Robb brought his bannermen south, and entered into an alliance with the Freys.

[Slovenly Muse]

I said it last season and I'll say it again: It's all fun and games in Westeros until some idiot tries to get married.

SUPER HAPPY that Joffrey is finally dead. But knowing how these things tend to play out on this show, getting what you want usually comes with a nasty consequence that leaves you feeling worse off than you were before. Man, I hope Tyrion is going to be ok! And if he's not, where does that leave Sansa?

Thinking of Tyrion, I absolutely loved his scene with Jaime at the beginning. Tyrion has resented his "golden boy" brother for so long, and yet manages to put all of their history away to sit down with him, show him some kindness when no one else has, and give him the practical advice he needed to hear. I loved their relationship in that scene. Later, when Tyrion was being humiliated by Joffrey, we got reaction shots of everyone at the table being either amused (Damn it, Cersei!) or disgusted with Joffrey's behaviour, but we didn't get to see Jaime's reaction to having to watch his brother, the only member of his family who's shown him any decency, be disgraced like that. I was really disappointed that was omitted. I hope this relationship continues to develop throughout the season.

Not enough Brienne. I need more Brienne! And she's always at her best when interacting with Jaime. More of that please!

If Loras/Oberyn happens... I'll be in my bunk.

[abelard]

Rewatched the wedding feast as closely as I could.

*Men have gold cups, women have glass cups.

*Sansa gets her hand on Joffrey's cup for a moment before handing it back to Tyrion.  

*When she does hand the cup to Tyrion, they exchange a look (Sansa and Tyrion).  Could mean anything, but could it mean...conspiracy between the two of them?  (Also, remember Tyrion saying to Pod, within earshot of Sansa, "I'll have to think of another gift to give the King.")

*When the pie comes, Margery takes the cup out of Joffrey's hand and puts it to her right, I think on a table right in front of Grandma Tyrell.  The cup stays there for a good long while (while Joffrey slices pie open, etc.).

*Margery feeds Joffrey at least one bit of the pie.  Doesn't eat a bit herself.  Not sure if anyone else eats the pie but Margery does not, for sure.  I think Joffrey eats a couple of additional bites on his own.  

*At this point, Sansa asks if they can go and Tyrion and Sansa try to sneak away, but Joffrey calls out to them and doesn't let them leave. 

*Then Joffrey gets Tyrion to bring him his cup again, Tyrion goes to where Margery put it down and gives it to Joffrey.  

*Joffrey sputters, chokes, etc.

*Tyrion looks startled and concerned when Joffrey starts to choke.  He takes a stop towards him and says "Your Grace...?" or something like that, like "Are you alright?"  Also, Tyrion investigates the cup a bit after Joffrey drops it, as if curious about whether it had been meddled with in some way.  

I don't know if that clears anything up.  Right now, I have two working theories.  1) Tyrion and Sansa conspired to poison the cup, tried to leave as early as possible, maybe even alerted Podrick and the Fool to the plan so they could assist where necessary?  2) It was the Tyrells.  Margery putting the cup in front of Grandma for a while, Margery feeding Joffrey the pie and not eating any herself.  

But honestly, I don't think it was either of these two groups of suspects.  Theirs were just the most noticeable actions during the wedding feast.  But they cup OR the pie may have been poisoned offscreen and nothing *we* saw at the feast would have led to the killer(s).

Are we calling this the Gold Wedding?  Or just the Happy Wedding?

[WhiteStumbler]

Hahahaha!!!!!

Choked on a bone in a place without the Heimlich maneuver? Poison? OR A LEACH?!?

Brilliant. And in Ep2? Wow. Damn.

Surprised yet again by A Show.

I will miss the hell out of Jackie Gleeson. Great in nearly every scene. Ding Dong!

[gingerella]

My, my, my..well that was quite the Redemption Day, was it not?

I rather love that that little sick fuck went out both humiliated by choking on his own incest-ridden vomit, and in public no less...for me that's a WIN-WIN! I shudder to think of whats going to happen to Tyrion but I hope to hell, the Seven, the trees, and the LoL, that he makes it out alive and Cersei goes out next. I'm really tired of her nasty ass. Game over Joffs!

I was rather hoping that Bolton would off his bastard for screwing up his plan to hold Theon hostage, but alas, I really think Bolton is a dimwit if he cant see what a twisted freakshow his bastard really is. I wonder who his mother was because he reminds me a lot of Joffrey, ergo I wonder if he is the product Bolton and is sister. Incest...there's a reason its forbidden in most cultures.

So it seems like The Fool had some sort of plan for spiriting Sansa away to safety, yes? That was him who was trying to get her to come with him as Joffs was dying, right? So KUDOS to whomever said that it would be awesome if The Fool ended up being responsible for finall offing Joffrey. ALL HAIL THE FOOL! Pass me some grog, I'm feeling a bit off of wine for some reason.

Enjoyed seeing Bran & Company, but am still sorting out Bran's hallucinations when he was communing with the Tree. I feel like his being a warg also means he has some sort of connection with the Trees, and that they are like a medieval telegraph for him, relaying events that he does not necessarily know about, but those messages are being relayed to him via the Tree. Does Bran know about Ned yet? A Show has so many threads that I cant remember! Does he know about everything that he was "shown" when he was touching the Tree? I dont think he does but Im not sure.

So I wonder what will happen to Maegery now, I mean, technically they were sealed in marriage already but she did not have time to consummate the union do I doubt she can even fake a pregnancy, let alone claim to have had time to schtup the King before being married...that wouldnt look too good for THE Queen, would it? But holy shit! That chick dodged a HUGE bullet didnt she? I was seriously wondering what her wedding night was going to look like, hot buttered mess of a train wreck.

Oh yes, two more things:

1. Brienne is fucked now. Cersei is going to try to take her out but I hope (pleeeeease LoL and The Seven) that somehow, Jaime is forced to choose and he chooses to save Brienne at Cersei's expense, and then Jaime has to watch Cersei die. That? Wold be totally delicious to watch!

2. I'm not sure what Jaime's point was by threatening Tyrell not to marry his sister, because it really does not seem like he could stop that if its what his father wants it to happen...but it does seem like Tyrell has his gaydar on for Oberyn. That's not going to end well I fear, for the Knight of Flowers.

This show exhausts the hell out of me. I wonder if Bookwalkers are less stressed out when watching A Show because they know whats going to happen (and NO, I am not asking Bookwalkers to weigh in on that, its a rhetorical question).

[MickleThePickle]

Path of the cup:

First shot of Joffrey seated at the reception. Only him and Margery at the center table with a guard standing on both sides.

Margery has a glass goblet while Joffrey's is gold.

Cup sits in front of him.

Joffrey raises cup to announce the Queen would like to say a few words. Doesn't drink from it. Sets it back in same place.

Joffrey takes a sip during the "war of the five kings". Cuts right before he drinks, but he is in motion. Places it in front of him.

Looks to take another sip before the camera cuts during the performance. Spits wine out while laughing. Back in front.

Picks up cup and pours wine on Tyrion's head, dips his finger in cup and licks finger.

Holds cup and drops it in on ground.

Kicks cup and it rolls under table. Sansa picks up cup out of view and hands it to Tyrion. They make eye contact and Tyrion looks inside the cup.

Tyrian fills cup with wine from his table and extends it to Joffrey. "Community" wine that others have presumably been drinking.

Joffrey takes cup, takes a drink and hands it to Margery.

Margery turns and places cup near the end of the couple's table.

Pie is brought to everyone in the wedding party.

Margery points to the cup as Tyrion is ordered to get his cup for him.

Joffrey drinks, coughs, dies.

[Overwhelming No]

 

The person with best access to the wine, that I actually noticed, was Lady Olenna's furry sidekick guy.

 

 

That would be the Lord of Highgarden, Mace Tyrell.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Boo