S04.E05: Honeymoons, Part 2

[seasick]

4 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

ITA.  I actually think she's avoiding getting into any confrontations with him with this behavior, not necessarily being "rude" for the sake of rudeness but trying not to encourage him in any way, which in this case seems pretty rude.  She also may be avoiding saying mean things to him, which she may actually want to say but feels would be wrong, destructive, or just not look good on TV.  I think Derek may be putting subtle pressure on her to move closer to him and engage in a relationship with him but it's having the opposite effect and she's not having it no way no how.  It's reminding me of my blind date with the little person who kept exerting subtle pressure on me to let my walls down, hold his hand, engage with him, when all I wanted was to get away from him.  It was all I could do not to confront him so I just tuned out and tried to send him body language to keep his distance, which admittedly probably came off as rude, but honestly I felt he didn't give me much choice.  It was that or just give him a piece of my mind, which probably would have been pretty nasty at the time because I was mad that he lied to me and put me in a difficult situation, and I didn't want to do that because I felt it would have been wrong and hurtful and "two wrongs don't make a right".  It was a very tough position to be in and I felt I was damned no matter what I did.

I prefer someone be up-front with me, and therefore I tend to be up-front with them.  I don't like games, mixed signals, passive-aggressive behavior such as silent treatment, eye-rolling, cold and distant, etc.   In the long run it is far more respectful to say what the problem is than to try to put it on Them to get so frustrated confused and hurt that they pull the plug and do the dirty work for you.   The Ashley excuse--"I didn't want to tell him I wasn't attracted to him and hurt his feelings"  so I treated him like crap for 6 weeks.   (then, lucky for me there was text-gate so I was able to play it like the relationship fail was totally on him) It was selfish and cowardly and her "not wanting to hurt his feelings' was crap.  She didn't want to feel like the 'bad guy' and feel guilty in the moment..  

It isn't easy to say 'this isn't working" or "I'm not feeling sparks--I'm sorry"  and be 'the bad guy' if someone still shows an interest.   But I'm sure many of us can relate to a 'relationship' where We broke up with Them--yes--- because they were purposely acting like an ass knowing  that we would eventually do their dirty work.  I for one would have preferred a "this isn't working' rather than being jerked around, confused, blamed, or treated like a fool.

I get in your situation described above that you were too angry to be honest in a respectful way.  I think I would also feel a bit 'used'  and put 'on the spot'  when someone has a very unusual physical trait AND was not within my parameters stated because I believe  they know it makes the situation awkward--that people are less likely to admit to having a problem with it , so they take advantage of the awkwardness and that person's desire to not look shallow.  (It's like at the nail salon when I don't want to keep asking 'How much is that going to cost--or is that extra??"-- to look like a cheapskate so they take advantage of that trait by piling on extras and making it sound as though it's part of the service.  I learned my lesson. And so did they.  (well with me, anyway)  It wasn't the first time.  I refused to pay them.)   

I grew up in a household with mixed signals.  I finally realized that my mother couldn't accept the fact that she didn't like her children because that would make her a bad and unloving mother.  So she created arguments and 'break-up's' over anything --real, imagined or even purposely invented in order to push us away and convince herself And US that WE were the problem--unloveable and unlikeable.   It was very cruel and self-serving.  I know this 'game" backwards and forwards, which is why I find it disgusting when I see the same game played on others.  Ashley was classic-- and Heather is pulling the same stunt.  I have a problem with her 'issues' about Derek because I believe she knew from jump that she wasn't attracted enough for it to ever work,  so her complaints --legit or not --  have little bearing on the success of the relationship.  In other words--no matter what he did or didn't do it wasn't going to work so why go there?  If it wasn't that,   she would have found something else.     So to imply or infer that it would have worked if only you (fill in the endless blanks) is a cruel, self serving lie.      

[Jellybeans]

Love your post seasick.

[Waterlilly]

I have tried to learn that if I start the conversation with "I feel like", it takes the blame off of the other person. My husband will usually respond with "that is not how I meant it". We can then discuss without being on the defense. H & D are both poor communicators, and too busy listening to the story they have already created in their heads based on passed bla bla bla.  They need some Super Soul Sunday, lol.  They appear relationship stunted, not bad people, just maybe emotionally adolescent, (which is something in common).  I would like to see a follow up show about what these people learned about themselves and what they have done to grow.

[jenrising]

10 minutes ago, Waterlilly said:

I have tried to learn that if I start the conversation with "I feel like", it takes the blame off of the other person. My husband will usually respond with "that is not how I meant it". We can then discuss without being on the defense. H & D are both poor communicators, and too busy listening to the story they have already created in their heads based on passed bla bla bla.  They need some Super Soul Sunday, lol.  They appear relationship stunted, not bad people, just maybe emotionally adolescent, (which is something in common).  I would like to see a follow up show about what these people learned about themselves and what they have done to grow.

Totally agree. They're a total mismatch, and seem to bring out the worst in each other. I noticed Nick was talking about his love language in this episode, and it would've really helped to get Heather and Derek some kind of relationship communication training before the show. They've managed to take a bad match and make it much worse. Which is, of course, good for the show but terrible for them. 

[seasick]

Just now, Jellybeans said:

Love your post seasick.

Thanks Jellybeans.  I don't usually get that personal or close to the bone  so I admit I felt a little insecure and exposed after I wrote it.  So thanks for that.

[Snarklepuss]

1 hour ago, seasick said:

I prefer someone be up-front with me, and therefore I tend to be up-front with them.  I don't like games, mixed signals, passive-aggressive behavior such as silent treatment, eye-rolling, cold and distant, etc.   In the long run it is far more respectful to say what the problem is than to try to put it on Them to get so frustrated confused and hurt that they pull the plug and do the dirty work for you.   The Ashley excuse--"I didn't want to tell him I wasn't attracted to him and hurt his feelings"  so I treated him like crap for 6 weeks.   (then, lucky for me there was text-gate so I was able to play it like the relationship fail was totally on him) It was selfish and cowardly and her "not wanting to hurt his feelings' was crap.  She didn't want to feel like the 'bad guy' and feel guilty in the moment..  

It isn't easy to say 'this isn't working" or "I'm not feeling sparks--I'm sorry"  and be 'the bad guy' if someone still shows an interest.   But I'm sure many of us can relate to a 'relationship' where We broke up with Them--yes--- because they were purposely acting like an ass knowing  that we would eventually do their dirty work.  I for one would have preferred a "this isn't working' rather than being jerked around, confused, blamed, or treated like a fool.

I get in your situation described above that you were too angry to be honest in a respectful way.  I think I would also feel a bit 'used'  and put 'on the spot'  when someone has a very unusual physical trait AND was not within my parameters stated because I believe  they know it makes the situation awkward--that people are less likely to admit to having a problem with it , so they take advantage of the awkwardness and that person's desire to not look shallow.  (It's like at the nail salon when I don't want to keep asking 'How much is that going to cost--or is that extra??"-- to look like a cheapskate so they take advantage of that trait by piling on extras and making it sound as though it's part of the service.  I learned my lesson. And so did they.  (well with me, anyway)  It wasn't the first time.  I refused to pay them.)   

I grew up in a household with mixed signals.  I finally realized that my mother couldn't accept the fact that she didn't like her children because that would make her a bad and unloving mother.  So she created arguments and 'break-up's' over anything --real, imagined or even purposely invented in order to push us away and convince herself And US that WE were the problem--unloveable and unlikeable.   It was very cruel and self-serving.  I know this 'game" backwards and forwards, which is why I find it disgusting when I see the same game played on others.  Ashley was classic-- and Heather is pulling the same stunt.  I have a problem with her 'issues' about Derek because I believe she knew from jump that she wasn't attracted enough for it to ever work,  so her complaints --legit or not --  have little bearing on the success of the relationship.  In other words--no matter what he did or didn't do it wasn't going to work so why go there?  If it wasn't that,   she would have found something else.     So to imply or infer that it would have worked if only you (fill in the endless blanks) is a cruel, self serving lie.      

Oh, ITA with you about being direct - I'm that way myself.  I think Heather WAS direct with Derek and that's what caused the arguments, but when they weren't getting anywhere and got ugly she just shut down and that's what we're seeing here prolonged to an unnatural degree because they are literally forced to be together.  She doesn't want to risk having any more arguments with him for any number of reasons including that she is checked out and angry.  So all her subsequent behavior is going to look like she's being avoidant.

I am LOL at your nail salon analogy because I just went through that on Thursday!!  But I still don't put Heather and Ashley in the same category.  I think Ashley was far worse.  She really did all those passive aggressive things and just would not deal with David AT ALL.  I think Heather did deal with Derek at first and put everything on the table, but it got ugly real fast and she didn't like him enough anyway (and even less after the way he argued with her) to continue to engage with him.

I do tend to agree also that Heather didn't like Derek enough at first to get over anything about him that may have been an issue and she did make more out of the smoking than she might have if she liked him more in other ways.  And that's a big thing, too, I don't deny that.  I think she would have had to like him a lot more to be more forgiving about the other things about him that she didn't like.  Then again, I personally can't blame her for not liking Derek.  He's not my cup of tea either, plus the way he reacted to her about the smoking just turned me off completely.  I was far more open about David and thought Ashley was being really unfair to him.  I think Heather and Derek just got to a really negative place after their smoking argument that they were never able to recover from.  Ashley wouldn't even get to that point with David.  She just tuned him out from the start and never leveled with him whatsoever.  It was mean, self serving and cruel.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[BunnySlippers]

10 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Regarding the "Me and Tom" grammar issue, it's almost an epidemic on this show as it seems to appear every season.  Is this a trend among younger people in general?  That's an honest question.  It seems kind of statistically improbable that so many of the people on this show would speak that way.  Did this younger generation not have the excellent teachers I had that would constantly correct you for saying that?  If I had a dollar for every time I heard a teacher say, "Tom and I" to someone who had just said "Me and Tom" I'd be rich.

 

I grew up in a different country, where we had grammar lessons in school, and I was shocked when my daughter told me that here, in her classes, they barely had any grammar lessons. I wonder if that's one reason for the misspellings and incorrect grammar I see and hear from younger people?

But to me the "me and Tom" thing isn't just a grammar issue. I was always told that it's more polite to put yourself last, so it should be "Tom and I" (or "Tom and me," depending on the sentence itself). Do we know when Lillian came to this country? It's hard for me to hear accents (unless they are pretty thick). Does she have an accent?

[Jellybeans]

For some reason Heather was matched to Derick based on HER answers to whatever questionnaires she answered. So...if she said she was ok with smoking at times, etc., it is rather immature and childish of her to give up on a marriage on day 2.  He was matched to her for a reason as well.  He seems willing to try.

That is my whole take.

[Snarklepuss]

10 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

For some reason Heather was matched to Derick based on HER answers to whatever questionnaires she answered. So...if she said she was ok with smoking at times, etc., it is rather immature and childish of her to give up on a marriage on day 2.  He was matched to her for a reason as well.  He seems willing to try.

That is my whole take.

I hear you but I think that things got really ugly between them really fast and it's hard for anyone to recover from a really bad first impression coming out of a fight like that.  Being that we didn't see so much of it, I'm not sure who is more responsible there, so I'm not even looking at it that way.  When there's a bad disagreement that leads to some bad things said, it can permanently damage a relationship between strangers because they have nothing else to go on and everything they know about the person started with that one bad interaction.  It doesn't matter if they're on a first date or are married, they're still relative strangers so IMO being married isn't going to change how they feel about each other. It's like making a bad impression in an interview.  Would the interviewer ever be able to see the person differently or understand that maybe they just had a bad day or were nervous, or whatever?  No.  It just doesn't work that way. 

And I personally don't think Derek was willing to try or else he would have done more to try to make things better between them.  Instead he just sits in the corner and goes "wah, wah, wah, she touches another guy but not me, wah, wah".  That was NOT an adult response, IMO.  He has shown nothing but a pity party from day one with her so I put at least part of the responsibility directly in his lap for how things are going.  I am sure he never said, "Let's start over, I really want things to work out".  No, I am sure that what we have seen is indicative of his childish "take me as I am or screw you" attitude.  I don't buy his talking heads AT ALL.  He is not making any effort either, I'm sure of that.

[Jack Sampson]

2 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

No, I am sure that what we have seen is indicative of his childish "take me as I am or screw you" attitude.  I don't buy his talking heads AT ALL.  He is not making any effort either, I'm sure of that.

Didn't he quit smoking for the rest of the honeymoon?  That's a pretty major change.

[Snarklepuss]

21 minutes ago, BunnySlippers said:

I grew up in a different country, where we had grammar lessons in school, and I was shocked when my daughter told me that here, in her classes, they barely had any grammar lessons. I wonder if that's one reason for the misspellings and incorrect grammar I see and hear from younger people?

But to me the "me and Tom" thing isn't just a grammar issue. I was always told that it's more polite to put yourself last, so it should be "Tom and I" (or "Tom and me," depending on the sentence itself). Do we know when Lillian came to this country? It's hard for me to hear accents (unless they are pretty thick). Does she have an accent?

Wow, I never had kids so I really have no idea of what is taught in school these days.  I have been told some things by friends with kids but I didn't realize that grammar wasn't taught that much anymore.  I would tend to believe it.  Also, my mother always told me that being well read helped you learn more about correct grammar and usage.  Unfortunately a lot of young people today spend a lot of time online with each other and aren't reading the right stuff, IMHO.  I have seen mistakes on web pages (even the NY Times!!!!) that make my blood boil because they of all sites should make sure nothing like that slips through.  

Lillian doesn't speak with much of any discernible accent, at least not much that I can detect.  I would find it hard to believe she didn't come to the US in the single digits as a result.  So I am not as forgiving about her grammar as some might be.

[BunnySlippers]

4 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

Wow, I never had kids so I really have no idea of what is taught in school these days.  I have been told some things by friends with kids but I didn't realize that grammar wasn't taught that much anymore.  I would tend to believe it.  Also, my mother always told me that being well read helped you learn more about correct grammar and usage.  Unfortunately a lot of young people today spend a lot of time online with each other and aren't reading the right stuff, IMHO.  I have seen mistakes on web pages (even the NY Times!!!!) that make my blood boil because they of all sites should make sure nothing like that slips through.  

Lillian doesn't speak with much of any discernible accent, at least not much that I can detect.  I would find it hard to believe she didn't come to the US in the single digits as a result.  So I am not as forgiving about her grammar as some might be.

Thanks for the reply. Then she must have come here when she was pretty young, because after a certain age it's much harder (if not impossible) to lose your accent.

[humbleopinion]

Noticing the dude with his fly zipper down or the gal with the back of her dress tucked up in her underwear, you hate to be the one to point it out to them.

Grammar nitpickers are the silent majority on forums.

[Snarklepuss]

15 minutes ago, Jack Sampson said:

Didn't he quit smoking for the rest of the honeymoon?  That's a pretty major change.

Well yikes, if she had to bust a gut to get him to do it I don't see where it's all that much of a major lifestyle choice change.  A major change would be if he changed to have a completely different relationship with the substance and perhaps only did it at parties or whatever for the rest of his life.  It's little consolation to her if he just doesn't do it when he's with her but then goes back to doing it often in private.  Plus if we are talking illegal substances that puts a whole 'nother dimension on it.  It's like what difference would it make to her if he were an alcoholic if he just didn't drink in front of her?  He would still be a hardcore user in her mind.

[Jack Sampson]

Just now, Snarklepuss said:

Well yikes, if she had to bust a gut to get him to do it I don't see where it's all that much of a major lifestyle choice change.  A major change would be if he changed to have a completely different relationship with the substance and perhaps only did it at parties or whatever for the rest of his life.  It's little consolation to her if he just doesn't do it when he's with her but then goes back to doing it often in private.  Plus if we are talking illegal substances that puts a whole 'nother dimension on it.  It's like what difference would it make to her if he were an alcoholic if he just didn't drink in front of her?  He would still be a hardcore user in her mind.

I think any smoker would disagree with you.  What similar change did she make?  Did she quit drinking for the duration?

 

1 minute ago, Snarklepuss said:

Well yikes, if she had to bust a gut to get him to do it I don't see where it's all that much of a major lifestyle choice change.  A major change would be if he changed to have a completely different relationship with the substance and perhaps only did it at parties or whatever for the rest of his life.  It's little consolation to her if he just doesn't do it when he's with her but then goes back to doing it often in private.  Plus if we are talking illegal substances that puts a whole 'nother dimension on it.  It's like what difference would it make to her if he were an alcoholic if he just didn't drink in front of her?  He would still be a hardcore user in her mind.

He quit for the duration, not just around her.

[Neurochick]

Ashley made it clear on day one that she was not attracted to Derek.  Heather never really said what it was she didn't like about Derek; I don't know if it was his smoking or that he mentioned a casino.  Something about Derek bugged Heather, something he did changed her perception of him, and to me it really wasn't that clear cut.  That's why I keep looking at Heather and want to say to her, "what the fuck's your problem?"

[Evil Queen]

31 minutes ago, BunnySlippers said:

I grew up in a different country, where we had grammar lessons in school, and I was shocked when my daughter told me that here, in her classes, they barely had any grammar lessons. I wonder if that's one reason for the misspellings and incorrect grammar I see and hear from younger people?

But to me the "me and Tom" thing isn't just a grammar issue. I was always told that it's more polite to put yourself last, so it should be "Tom and I" (or "Tom and me," depending on the sentence itself). Do we know when Lillian came to this country? It's hard for me to hear accents (unless they are pretty thick). Does she have an accent?

4 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

Wow, I never had kids so I really have no idea of what is taught in school these days.  I have been told some things by friends with kids but I didn't realize that grammar wasn't taught that much anymore.  I would tend to believe it.  Also, my mother always told me that being well read helped you learn more about correct grammar and usage.  Unfortunately a lot of young people today spend a lot of time online with each other and aren't reading the right stuff, IMHO.  I have seen mistakes on web pages (even the NY Times!!!!) that make my blood boil because they of all sites should make sure nothing like that slips through.  

Lillian doesn't speak with much of any discernible accent, at least not much that I can detect.  I would find it hard to believe she didn't come to the US in the single digits as a result.  So I am not as forgiving about her grammar as some might be.

I have kids in school. I had to start homeschooling my daughter almost 2 yrs ago. We do it through a public homeschool program. I will say there are things taught with grammar in the language arts book. Our workbook we have has different sections in it. One includes grammar. The thing is our book is not the same as what you would get in most elementary schools. I found it kind of an odd one when we switched to this. Took a little getting used to. She was being taught grammar in school but it I think what we have now does it more than what she had when going to the school. Yet I notice that once SM became more popular it seemed that part of things started going downhill and fast. I know I see it in articles too with top newspapers and just do not understand how it gets published that way. 

As for Lily, I have not heard any accent at all. So wouldn't be surprised if she actually came her earlier on in her life and grew up in the U.S. 

30 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

For some reason Heather was matched to Derick based on HER answers to whatever questionnaires she answered. So...if she said she was ok with smoking at times, etc., it is rather immature and childish of her to give up on a marriage on day 2.  He was matched to her for a reason as well.  He seems willing to try.

That is my whole take.

7 minutes ago, Jack Sampson said:

Didn't he quit smoking for the rest of the honeymoon?  That's a pretty major change.

I think there is really more to it though. Yet if he was smoking something like weed, its a bit different from cigarettes. She may have been ok if he smoked cigarettes here and there but not weed. It started off looking like she was going into this ok. Said she found him good looking, danced close together, kissed a few times or so, walked out hand in hand, and they had them cuddling in bed on camera. Now what if after all that the next day she woke up with him wanting to jump out of bed to light up his joint or whatever...IF it was weed. Red flag right there IMO and with good reason. Its not immature if this was what was going on. Its a risk for her to be around that and to her job if something was to happen. While certain things could have been handled better between them both, he has come off as immature himself. Which maybe they were matched for being immature. LOL As well as I don't see him trying if he was pouting when she suggested going to do different things for the day. That came off as her trying I thought. Not saying he didn't try at some point though but the last I saw was her try. 

Which also brings up the damn editing of this show again. I seriously wish they would hire better editors for this show. Its to all over the place alot of times. 

As for quitting smoking, he sure didn't look like he had quit it completely. I noticed he did appear more open eyed and not the same manner as he had been before for most of it but there was still times he was looking a bit on the high side. I don't think he stopped completely but maybe didn't jump out of bed to do it first thing. So don't see a major change at this time. Not to say we couldn't down the line though. Which btw, the drinking was done by both so that is a bit silly to say did she stop doing that when he was drinking just as much from what we saw. 

[Snarklepuss]

1 minute ago, Jack Sampson said:

I think any smoker would disagree with you.  What similar change did she make?  Did she quit drinking for the duration?

I am an ex-cigarette smoker who smoked for 15 years so I know how it is.  Although I think this was about weed, not cigarettes.  Drinking not illegal.  I think she probably had more issues with the legality than anything else.  If this were about alcohol I think she would not have had as big an issue just by virtue of the legality.  If he looked like an alcoholic to her then I think she may have had issues because there's a big difference between being a casual drinker and an alcoholic.  I think she pegged him for a pothead and that's why his not smoking in front of her doesn't help.  She doesn't respect that lifestyle, and that's her right not to.  She didn't want a pothead, or someone who can't get through a day w/o a joint, only someone who smokes on a very occasional, casual basis.  There is a huge difference, IMHO.

9 minutes ago, Jack Sampson said:

He quit for the duration, not just around her.

But Jack, it's still only temporary, he's not scaling back in his entire life to only a few joints every now and then!!!!!!!  She doesn't want someone who only changes on a temporary basis!!!!  I can't be more clear than this!!!

[Jack Sampson]

4 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I am an ex-cigarette smoker who smoked for 15 years so I know how it is.  Although I think this was about weed, not cigarettes.  Drinking not illegal.  I think she probably had more issues with the legality than anything else.  If this were about alcohol I think she would not have had as big an issue just by virtue of the legality.  If he looked like an alcoholic to her then I think she may have had issues because there's a big difference between being a casual drinker and an alcoholic.  I think she pegged him for a pothead and that's why his not smoking in front of her doesn't help.  She doesn't respect that lifestyle, and that's her right not to.  She didn't want a pothead, or someone who can't get through a day w/o a joint, only someone who smokes on a very occasional, casual basis.  There is a huge difference, IMHO.

But Jack, it's still only temporary, he's not scaling back in his entire life to only a few joints every now and then!!!!!!!  She doesn't want someone who only changes on a temporary basis!!!!  I can't be more clear than this!!!

He's making a change, making an effort, whether you can see (or admit) it or not.  Tell me some major effort (if only temporary) Heather is making.

[Jellybeans]

He quit whatever he was smoking.  And IF it was weed, it is ok for tourists to use weed there as long as it is not in public. Google it. Laws have changed.

So if he quit smoking whatever he smoked...and we are not shown any gambling, only a mention...why is Heather is still complaining...I am not sure anything really happened because they would have shown it.

[Jack Sampson]

4 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

He quit whatever he was smoking.  And IF it was weed, it is ok for tourists to use weed there as long as it is not in public. Google it. Laws have changed.

So if he quit smoking whatever he smoked...and we are not shown any gambling, only a mention...why is Heather is still complaining...I am not sure anything really happened because they would have shown it.

Because it's just an excuse.  Heather is unwilling to make an effort so she's using anything possible to make it look like Derek's fault. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Jack Sampson

[Neurochick]

I still think there is a missing piece, something we, the audience, are not seeing between Derek and Heather.  Maybe Heather is upset about his smoking pot (let's say it's pot) but she doesn't want to out him on TV, so she comes off looking dour and unhappy.  I mean something happened between these two people that turned Heather off.

Surf instructor:  IMO I think it was disrespectful of the surf instructor to grab the hand of a woman on her honeymoon.  Maybe he was a plant from the producers and told to do that to create drama.  

[humbleopinion]

Insider info: The bug was placed on the surfing instructor's chest so Heather could flick it away.

[Jellybeans]

I don't buy there is a missing piece because well...drama is ratings gold.  If it is ok to imply maybe pot, maybe not, why not show the real reason PLUS the smoking, gambling (or lack of..) etc....

[BunnySlippers]

24 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

I don't buy there is a missing piece because well...drama is ratings gold.  If it is ok to imply maybe pot, maybe not, why not show the real reason PLUS the smoking, gambling (or lack of..) etc....

If it happened without the cameras around, there's nothing to show.

[ctbabe]

30 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I still think there is a missing piece, something we, the audience, are not seeing between Derek and Heather.  Maybe Heather is upset about his smoking pot (let's say it's pot) but she doesn't want to out him on TV, so she comes off looking dour and unhappy.  I mean something happened between these two people that turned Heather off.

Surf instructor:  IMO I think it was disrespectful of the surf instructor to grab the hand of a woman on her honeymoon.  Maybe he was a plant from the producers and told to do that to create drama.  

If she was mad about the pot, why didn't she talk to him about it? Why give him permission? Remember the coldness started on day 2 and the alleged pot smoking started on day 2 too.. why suffer in silence? 

[Neurochick]

23 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

I don't buy there is a missing piece because well...drama is ratings gold.  If it is ok to imply maybe pot, maybe not, why not show the real reason PLUS the smoking, gambling (or lack of..) etc....

I believe, if it is pot, that Derek and Heather had a conversation about him smoking it, maybe that conversation was off camera.  

I also think the show might not want to admit that Derek is smoking pot, because it could get him and the show in trouble.

What if the show matched a person with either a heavy drinker or an alcoholic?  I would think that could get the producers and maybe the experts in trouble.

[humbleopinion]

Unless I blinked and missed it ...

Heather says "Looky there Derek, a casino."

Derek replies "Yep."

Later in the heated argument Heather rips him a new one for being a smoker AND gambler...say what?

First indication that this season's editing was going to be a bigger hatchet job than the past.

 I couldn't reconcile Heather's accusations with what we saw on the show.

[crazychicken]

1 hour ago, Snarklepuss said:

But Jack, it's still only temporary, he's not scaling back in his entire life to only a few joints every now and then!!!!!!!  She doesn't want someone who only changes on a temporary basis!!!!  I can't be more clear than this!!!

Umm from what I saw she never gave him the chance to quit, she was checked out before he even knew it was a problem. I am failing to see how it is Derek's fault that Heather did not tell him smoking was an issue, she just acted passive aggressive and gave him the cold shoulder. When Derek asked her what the issue was she started out insulting him then walked away when she refused to listen to his point. After a few hours he approached her on the balcony and tried to reach a solution and she went straight back into attack.

[Waterlilly]

That is what was shown Crazychicken, anyway that is what I recall.

[Evil Queen]

54 minutes ago, ctbabe said:

If she was mad about the pot, why didn't she talk to him about it? Why give him permission? Remember the coldness started on day 2 and the alleged pot smoking started on day 2 too.. why suffer in silence? 

What if what she said was ok to smoke was a cigarette or it wasn't made clear it was pot and the next thing you know he is smoking pot. We have no clue what she said ok to or what happened since it was never shown. There is no way they are going to show that its pot with it being illegal. They rather do the edit to make Heather look bad instead. I'd be checked out though in her spot too and pissed at this show and stupid "experts" for picking him and not discussing drugs. If someone is so willing to do something illegal so soon in front of someone he didn't even know more than a day, it might make you wonder what else he could be hiding. 

21 minutes ago, Waterlilly said:

That is what was shown Crazychicken, anyway that is what I recall.

Yet what wasn't shown? Even if something can be good drama for tv it doesn't mean it will make it to tv...especially if its about something illegal or it creates more of a drama/people talking trying to figure out if there is more to it or not. No matter it just seems there are things missing in this story of theirs and what is really going on with both sides. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Evil Queen

[Jellybeans]

What was illegal?  Pot?  It is not illegal.

[ctbabe]

1 minute ago, Evil Queen said:

Yet what wasn't shown? Even if something can be good drama for tv it doesn't mean it will make it to tv...especially if its about something illegal or it creates more of a drama/people talking trying to figure out if there is more to it or not. 

According to Derek interviews and tweets, he was surprised she had a problem with it since they discussed it.. if she had a problem with it, she should have discussed it with him. Crazychicken, your analysis was exactly how Derek explained it during his unfiltered and knot interview. 

I am sure he would be accused of lying. 

[Evil Queen]

6 minutes ago, ctbabe said:

According to Derek interviews and tweets, he was surprised she had a problem with it since they discussed it.. if she had a problem with it, she should have discussed it with him. Crazychicken, your analysis was exactly how Derek explained it during his unfiltered and knot interview. 

I am sure he would be accused of lying. 

So did he explain it as being pot or cigarettes during these interviews/unfiltered? 

[crazychicken]

10 minutes ago, Evil Queen said:

What if what she said was ok to smoke was a cigarette or it wasn't made clear it was pot and the next thing you know he is smoking pot. We have no clue what she said ok to or what happened since it was never shown. There is no way they are going to show that its pot with it being illegal. They rather do the edit to make Heather look bad instead. I'd be checked out though in her spot too and pissed at this show and stupid "experts" for picking him and not discussing drugs. If someone is so willing to do something illegal so soon in front of someone he didn't even know more than a day, it might make you wonder what else he could be hiding. 

Yet what wasn't shown? Even if something can be good drama for tv it doesn't mean it will make it to tv...especially if its about something illegal or it creates more of a drama/people talking trying to figure out if there is more to it or not. No matter it just seems there are things missing in this story of theirs and what is really going on with both sides. 

This may be a radical idea, but if she thought she was saying yes to cigarettes and he pulled out a joint she could have opened her mouth and said 'I am not comfortable with that' he now knows she does not like it and the ball is in his court. If he then lit up then I could understand her shutting down and having a problem, instead she kept it to herself and expected him to change without even knowing it was an issue.

 

How can they build a relationship with no communication

[Passthepopcorn]

2 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

He quit whatever he was smoking.  And IF it was weed, it is ok for tourists to use weed there as long as it is not in public. Google it. Laws have changed.

So if he quit smoking whatever he smoked...and we are not shown any gambling, only a mention...why is Heather is still complaining...I am not sure anything really happened because they would have shown it.

I'm starting to have the feeling that it goes beyond Derek. She could have just realized what a major mistake it was to get married and participate in a reality show, all in front of her family and friends and us, strangers. The reality check started coming when she got sick in her stomach before meeting her groom and got bigger and bigger as she woke up next to a guy and a camera crew filming their every move. To wake up and think "what the hell am I doing here?". It could be complete regret.

If not, I'm still waiting to hear what is it that really bothers her so much.. Is it that he smoked? (don't know what for sure), that she insulted him and he insulted her and were crying on day 2 and there is no coming back from that? It is all speculation at this point. I've heard it from you guys, but not from her. She said something about the smoking, but didn't clarify if that was a complete deal breaker or if she was just being honest about something she doesn't like around her and was making sure it doesn't happen again. The same way we tell our husband or co worker, please don't leave that on the counter/desk, I like my tidy space, it drives me nuts...

[ctbabe]

6 minutes ago, Passthepopcorn said:

'm starting to have the feeling that it goes beyond Derek. She could have just realized what a major mistake it was to get married and participate in a reality show, all in front of her family and friends and us, strangers. The reality check started coming when she got sick in her stomach before meeting her groom and got bigger and bigger as she woke up next to a guy and a camera crew filming their every move. To wake up and think "what the hell am I doing here?". It could be complete regret.

I think you got that right. Maybe she had the WTF moment. 

[Passthepopcorn]

1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

Unless I blinked and missed it ...

Heather says "Looky there Derek, a casino."

Derek replies "Yep."

Later in the heated argument Heather rips him a new one for being a smoker AND gambler...say what?

First indication that this season's editing was going to be a bigger hatchet job than the past.

 I couldn't reconcile Heather's accusations with what we saw on the show.

That might be the missing piece. Are they saving it for last? To shock us?

If it was pot, then I understand everything. Something illegal, every day in front of someone you just met. Bad choice.

But if it was, how can the show talk about it without getting in trouble?

We will never know? To be continued...

Edited August 28, 2016 by Passthepopcorn

[humbleopinion]

I enjoy sausage and don't need to know about all the ingredients and gnarly bits that make it tasty.

This show is sausage.

[Evil Queen]

1 minute ago, Passthepopcorn said:

I'm starting to have the feeling that it goes beyond Derek. She could have just realized what a major mistake it was to get married and participate in a reality show, all in front of her family and friends and us, strangers. The reality check started coming when she got sick in her stomach before meeting her groom and got bigger and bigger as she woke up next to a guy and a camera crew filming their every move. To wake up and think "what the hell am I doing here?". It could be complete regret.

If not, I'm still waiting to hear what is it that really bothers her so much.. Is it that he smoked? (don't know what for sure), that she insulted him and he insulted her and were crying on day 2 and there is no coming back from that? It is all speculation at this point. I've heard it from you guys, but not from her. She said something about the smoking, but didn't clarify if that was a complete deal breaker or if she was just being honest about something she doesn't like around her and was making sure it doesn't happen again. The same way we tell our husband or co worker, please don't leave that on the counter/desk, I like my tidy space, it drives me nuts...

That it the thing we don't know what it is for sure. Its why I say there is something(s) missing from what we are seeing. All I keep seeing is that Derek said this or that in interviews/unfiltered but what does she say on that? There could be something that we aren't be shown for some reason or another. Its to bad we aren't seeing it to get the whole picture. Yet it seems most reality shows always want to have a person they edit in a bad way. While some don't need any help from editing in looking bad (Ashley, Sam) there are those that all the editors have to do is slice and dice this and that scene together with leaving out other things and VOILA we have our bad/villain person for the season. 

  I don't blame any of these people feeling sick before hand or anything else they may feel before stepping out from behind a curtain to meet their future spouse, their family and friends. I can imagine its something both men and women would feel that day and leading up to it. As well as doubts on if they are doing the right thing or not. Heck there are many that know the person for years that they are marrying and feel that way as well but then throw in a camera crew and all these other people for the show and its another story as well. 

15 minutes ago, crazychicken said:

This may be a radical idea, but if she thought she was saying yes to cigarettes and he pulled out a joint she could have opened her mouth and said 'I am not comfortable with that' he now knows she does not like it and the ball is in his court. If he then lit up then I could understand her shutting down and having a problem, instead she kept it to herself and expected him to change without even knowing it was an issue.

 

How can they build a relationship with no communication

Or she didn't expect it to be as much as it was if she really did say it was ok. No matter which he was smoking. Couldn't it be that she was thinking it was only going to happen this one time and next thing she knows he wakes up the next morning to do it. So its becomes a let me not rush to judgement and see if this keeps happening. Then it does again and again in the day and the next morning starts the same. No matter what we all can come up with ways it could have played out or not but we have no clue in the end since it wasn't on the show for whatever reason. All we got was the lame fight and the lame after fight fight. Like I said there is to much missing in those whole thing to know if it was because of this even or if it was something else. Heck maybe its his ugly tattoos or his voice. LOL 

 

3 minutes ago, Passthepopcorn said:

That might be the missing piece. Are they saving it for last? To shock us?

Could be...drag it out to keep us all wondering/guessing what is really going on or not. Plus it will drag them on for the season as well by doing so. We all know that they do not want these people walking away before its over. They will push, push and push no matter what to not have that happen. 

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, Jack Sampson said:

He's making a change, making an effort, whether you can see (or admit) it or not.  Tell me some major effort (if only temporary) Heather is making.

I think at this point whatever he did pissed her off so much it's a major effort for her not to walk out and end it right now.  Because I just know she wants to end it now more than anything else.  It had to have been something really bad, not just cigarettes or even pot, that's what I'm thinking.

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I believe, if it is pot, that Derek and Heather had a conversation about him smoking it, maybe that conversation was off camera.  

I also think the show might not want to admit that Derek is smoking pot, because it could get him and the show in trouble.

What if the show matched a person with either a heavy drinker or an alcoholic?  I would think that could get the producers and maybe the experts in trouble.

I'm with you on the missing piece, perhaps something like this because the behavior we've seen on camera doesn't add up 100% with either of them.   The gambling theory is also interesting - something that can be revealed at the end that would make it all make sense.  Sort of like Jessica revealing Ryan's abuse and later threats, although we found out beforehand via the internet that she had slapped a restraining order on him.  I was hard on Jessica all that season but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt based on the edit.  I didn't want to believe just how bad he was, when probably most of it was off camera (although he was bad enough on camera too).

I hate this show, with some exceptions, I really feel like they give a better edit to the men than they deserve in general.  I know Bunnyslippers said something either on this thread or the other one to that effect, but ITA.

[ctbabe]

3 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

hate this show, with some exceptions, I really feel like they give a better edit to the men than they deserve in general.  I know Bunnyslippers said something either on this thread or the other one to that effect, but ITA.

I can't believe we are going to blame editing this season.. hmmmmmm.... if the men were getting better edit then they wouldnt have showed Derek's rant. Please let's not start blaming editing for the women's bad behavior.

[Snarklepuss]

2 minutes ago, ctbabe said:

I can't believe we are going to blame editing this season.. hmmmmmm.... if the men were getting better edit then they wouldnt have showed Derek's rant. Please let's not start blaming editing for the women's bad behavior.

Well if it turns out that Derek has a skeleton in his closet that the show is not revealing it wouldn't be the first time the show has done this with the men.  We had the two Ryans and Sean in Season 2, and the show could have made any one of them look much worse.  They tried to make Basement Ryan look like the devoted son who takes care of his family when that wasn't actually the case.  The list goes on.  Meanwhile they didn't even attempt to make Ashley or Sam look any better than they were which is why they were so well hated on this board.  I also felt that Vanessa got a needy/demanding edit when it was just that Tres wasn't into her and wasn't into being married in the first place.  So I think it really is a thing with this show.  They have complained about how hard it is to find decent male matches so I'm sure they're settling and this is the result of that.  Without talking about this season's social media or online stuff it could be the case that Derek was not the first choice for Heather and they actually compromised with him because "the show must go on".

[Enero]

42 minutes ago, crazychicken said:

This may be a radical idea, but if she thought she was saying yes to cigarettes and he pulled out a joint she could have opened her mouth and said 'I am not comfortable with that' he now knows she does not like it and the ball is in his court. If he then lit up then I could understand her shutting down and having a problem, instead she kept it to herself and expected him to change without even knowing it was an issue.

 

How can they build a relationship with no communications

She admitted on camera that she was fine with him smoking "occasionally" and that she told him this. But where the disconnect started to happen I think was when Derek's definition of occasionally was everyday and I'm thinking not just everyday but multiple times a day. 

Can someone remind me again what has been so horrid and pearl clutching about Heather's behavior? She hasn't been a Pollyanna that's for sure, but I don't recall her doing anything that was mean or rude, except maybe leave him in the dust when they were riding their bikes. Lol. But that would hardly warrant the venom she's drawing over her "behavior."

[Snarklepuss]

1 minute ago, Enero said:

She admitted on camera that she was fine with him smoking "occasionally" and that she told him this. But where the disconnect started to happen I think was when Derek's definition of occasionally was everyday and I'm thinking not just everyday but multiple times a day. 

Can someone remind me again what has been so horrid and pearl clutching about Heather's behavior? She hasn't been a Pollyanna that's for sure, but I don't recall her doing anything that was mean or rude, except maybe leave him in the dust when they were riding their bikes. Lol. But that would hardly warrant the venom she's drawing over her "behavior."

I totally agree with you - I think Heather got labeled a "bitch" because of her on screen behavior, but just like we wouldn't blame a rape victim for being nuts because they screamed for help, I wouldn't necessarily blame Heather for coming off like a bitch if the guy is really that bad.  Of course she's going to look like she's upset, sullen and argumentative when she is really not digging the guy she's with and he's engaging in illegal behavior plus juvenile/defensive arguments.  It's just like Vanessa in a different way.  Vanessa got labeled as "needy and demanding" or "expecting too much/living in a dream world" when the truth was she was reacting to a guy who was obviously not into her and also a player who was not on the show because he wanted to get married but because he got "recruited".  Still the venom hurled at poor Vanessa never ended despite all the evidence that came out that made Tres look a lot worse than we saw on camera.  People said "Oh, she chased him away".  In retrospect, I seriously doubt she chased him away.  He was never "there" enough to be chased away in the first place.

[CindyK]

44 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I totally agree with you - I think Heather got labeled a "bitch" because of her on screen behavior, but just like we wouldn't blame a rape victim for being nuts because they screamed for help, I wouldn't necessarily blame Heather for coming off like a bitch if the guy is really that bad.  Of course she's going to look like she's upset, sullen and argumentative when she is really not digging the guy she's with and he's engaging in illegal behavior plus juvenile/defensive arguments.  It's just like Vanessa in a different way.  Vanessa got labeled as "needy and demanding" or "expecting too much/living in a dream world" when the truth was she was reacting to a guy who was obviously not into her and also a player who was not on the show because he wanted to get married but because he got "recruited".  Still the venom hurled at poor Vanessa never ended despite all the evidence that came out that made Tres look a lot worse than we saw on camera.  People said "Oh, she chased him away".  In retrospect, I seriously doubt she chased him away.  He was never "there" enough to be chased away in the first place.

I agree with every word.  I'm convinced most of these guys are promised positive edits in exchange for agreeing to participate.  They have the upper hand because of there aren't many men who sign up freely.  Vanessa smelled a rat early on, but the experts kept telling her she was imagining things.  You cannot convince me that Tres had any intent to make the marriage work, or that he cared to be married at all.  The information that came out on him after the show makes me wonder why so many still have a favorable opinion of him.

[humbleopinion]

Cuz players gonna play...play...play...play...play

[KateHearts]

I'm tired of analyzing Heather.  Let's change the subject.

[humbleopinion]

How's the weather?

Are there gathering storm clouds for Lily and Tom?

Will it be raining cats and DOGS for Sonia and Nick?

Hazy days for Derek and Heather?

Edited August 29, 2016 by humbleopinion
more nonsense

[crazychicken]

Ok is anybody else sick of the over the top PDA of Tom & Lilly. I feel like fast forwarding through them as the remind me of a set of 13 year olds in their first relationship that is true love that is going to last 4eva.