Hollywood History: The Real-Life "Feud" and More

[Mindthinkr]

16 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Lest I forget:  Joan Crawford was tiny.  We have mentioned on here that she seems to have a large presence on stage.  This was found in Photoplay of 1923.  Some of the shoe sizes make me wonder how many toes some of these actresses had. The other measurements....

 

 

JC had a size 4D shoe? That's crazy. Like the clothing industry sizes must have changed over the years as I'm very petite and have a bigger foot than that. With a bust of 37" I'd even venture to say that she'd tip forward because there isn't enough foot to stand on!! 

[hippielamb]

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

JC had a size 4D shoe? That's crazy. Like the clothing industry sizes must have changed over the years as I'm very petite and have a bigger foot than that. With a bust of 37" I'd even venture to say that she'd tip forward because there isn't enough foot to stand on!! 

I know, right? I am petite as well and those shoe sizes sound so tiny. One woman claimed to wear a 2 and 1/2 size. That sounds like a child's shoe. 

[newyawk]

I am wondering if some of the shoe sizes, etc were "trimmed down" and fed to Photoplay adjusted by the studio to maintain a certain delicate, feminine image of their stars. 

[holly4755]

I found this article - and just like dress sizes are different now then 50 years ago, I am sure that shoe sizes are changing. 

dress sizes - I am 5'6" My much younger Niece is 5' and very thin, she wears a size 0 today but also fits in my '70's  size 8 dresses. I was about 110 then.  My conclusion is dress sizes have expanded. 

but in this article is says US woman have larger feet.  I really don't believe that because my mother and I shared shoes. 

I weara size 8/8.5. When I was a kid my mother's old from the forties shoes were 6. She claimed her feet had grown, I doubt it. 

Bigfoot

Quote

 At the beginning of the 20th century, the average American woman wore a 3.5 or a 4; by the 1940s she was strapping on a 5.5. According to The Professional Shoe Fitting Manual, the average American adult female's shoe size in the 1960s was a 5.5 or a 6; in the '70s, it climbed to about 7.5; and in the '80s, it reached 8 or 8.5. No stats have been added yet for the '90s, but you can do the math: By now, the average women's size could hover somewhere in the 9s. Besides, due to regular wear and tear, foot ligaments and joints stretch—which means that over the course of a lifetime, shoe size tends to increase by about one size. And this isn't just a feminine phenomenon; according to Army records, the average shoe size worn by male recruits has gone up from about a 6 to about a 9.5 since the American Revolution.

[CraftyHazel]

Spoiler

 

Well, considering that an eight of an inch in foot length can send you up a half size in shoes, I don't necessarily think those sizes would be so far off.  So my size 8.5 foot might only be a little over an inch longer than Joan Crawford's dainty little size 4 foot.  With the article above stating that feet appear to be growing larger with each generation (And why not?  Our bodies have gotten taller and wider, too.), it hardly seems unusual that 90 years ago, so many of these stars had "tiny" feet.  What surprised me most about that chart is Joan Crawford admitting to a 37" hip!  That seems rather voluptuous for as petite as she was.

[Willowsmom]

17 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I know, right? I am petite as well and those shoe sizes sound so tiny. One woman claimed to wear a 2 and 1/2 size. That sounds like a child's shoe. 

One of my great aunts wore a size 2 shoe. She was 4'10".

13 hours ago, holly4755 said:

I wear a size 8/8.5. When I was a kid my mother's old from the forties shoes were 6. She claimed her feet had grown, I doubt it. 

 

Feet do continue to spread. I always wore an 8.5 but now wear a 10.

[Jan Spears]

17 hours ago, newyawk said:

I am wondering if some of the shoe sizes, etc were "trimmed down" and fed to Photoplay adjusted by the studio to maintain a certain delicate, feminine image of their stars. 

Yes. I would be careful about treating any of these measurements as actual truth. Photoplay and the studios would have worked hand-in-hand to present the most idealized image possible of the female stars. I actually think some of the heights are a little suspect. I would put Crawford at closer to 5'3" and Norma Shearer at 5'2". (In her very interesting commentary track for the DVD release of The Best of Everything (1959), Rona Jaffe, who wrote the book on which the movie was based, estimated that Crawford was no taller than 5'0"!!!)

Kay Francis was considered a "giant" back in the 30s but, if you believe these measurements, she was only 5'7". But I guess next to all these very petite women, Francis would have been seen as unusually tall.

[enoughcats]

Today as I read about half way through Hedda and Louella there was a story about Joan Crawford and her first "starring" roll at MGM.  Joan came to the studio the day after it was announced, wearing slacks and a blouse.  The boss of MGM took one look at her and told her if she wanted to be a star, she needed to look like a star.  She went home and came back as a glamorous star.  And did so every day for the rest of her life.

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, enoughcats said:

Today as I read about half way through Hedda and Louella there was a story about Joan Crawford and her first "starring" roll at MGM.  Joan came to the studio the day after it was announced, wearing slacks and a blouse.  The boss of MGM took one look at her and told her if she wanted to be a star, she needed to look like a star.  She went home and came back as a glamorous star.  And did so every day for the rest of her life.

The sad thing was there was nothing wrong with wanting to look your best, particularly for a movie star.  The problem was that she never changed up her look.  She was still dressing like a movies star from the 1940's in the late sixties.  I do not think that a woman has to keep up with trends, but she should be aware of how her face is changing and be ready to shake things up once in a while.

The eyebrows and the plastered on make up started to look a little grotesque and she was a naturally attractive woman and could of toned it down.  Think about if someone showed up today with a full faced of 1980's make up...it just would not look right and might actually age the wearer.

[psychoticstate]

On 4/22/2017 at 6:30 PM, enoughcats said:

Lest I forget:  Joan Crawford was tiny.  We have mentioned on here that she seems to have a large presence on stage.  This was found in Photoplay of 1923.  Some of the shoe sizes make me wonder how many toes some of these actresses had. The other measurements....

 

 

If you've been to Mann's Chinese and seen the handprints and footprints out front, you know the shoe sizes are probably accurate.  The feet back then were TINY.  I wear a 7 - 7.5 now and when I put my foot over Crawford's footprint, I positively dwarf hers. 

That said, I do agree that the heights were exaggerated on a few.  Crawford herself was 5'3" by all accounts.  Norma Shearer was closer to 5'1", maybe 5'2".  I think Clara Bow was shorter than 5'4".  Interestingly, Garbo was taller than 5'6" by at least an inch by all I've read and heard.  

I think the 1923 date may be incorrect.  Crawford did not arrive in Hollywood until 1925.  I'm surprised that Gloria Swanson isn't on the list.  She was truly TINY - - not even 5 feet.  

[caracas1914]

Now if you want to depict  a real life pathetic Norma Desmond end SL I think Norma Shearer would have been a prime candidate, much more so than Bette or even Joan.

She couldn't relate to her professor son (only having met her grandchildren once) , in all seriousness thought she couldn't' even go to the movies in the 80's because of the paparazzi that would mob her , and ended up calling her second husband Irving. 

[Inquisitionist]

Interesting that Davis said she voted for The Turning Point for Best Picture.  That film had two strong female leads (Shirley MacClaine and Anne Bancroft) whose characters engaged in a feud of their own.  It was nominated in 11 categories and won ZERO. That was the year of Annie Hall, and other big nominees were The Goodbye Girl (Richard Dreyfuss won for Best Actor), Julia, and Star Wars.

[newyawk]

I've been to the Chinese theater and I have seen the footprints, but a lot of them were in heeled shes, meaning you weren't going to get the whole foot, just the front part of the sole of the shoe plus the heel.  That said, a lot of them did look tiny.

Off-topic, I wanted to recommend two very good documentaries about Old Hollywood and the studio system, although I suspect many people who watched this series have probably seen these. 

1) MGM: When The Lion Roars  It is a three part Emmy-winning documentary, narrated by the always entertaining Patrick Stewart, of the history of MGM from "its creation in the 1920's to its decline in the 1950's. It includes a lot of interviews with major stars of that era, lots of interesting footage, and is very watchable.

2) The Brothers Warner is a little drier than the first documentary but nonetheless still very interesting. It is a history of  the Warner brothers, Albert, Harry, Jack and Sam from their poor beginnings as Russian immigrants to their highflying days as Hollywood moguls and beyond, they had some major family rifts. It includes interviews with stars like Dennis Hopper, Norman Lear, Debbie Reynolds, Roy Disney, Efrem Zimbalist Jr, and Angie Dickinson. 

One very interesting thing I learned from the Warner Brothers piece is that WB, because of their European and political connections, learned very early on what was going on in 1930's Europe as far as the concentration camps, way before the public in the Western World really knew about it,  (this was EARLY 1930's)and the studio tried to make a movie about it but it was shot down. They were pressured to stop production because of "perceived offense to a foreign government."

Below is a link to an interesting list of "90 Things We Bet You Didn't Know About Warner Bros."

http://americanfilm.afi.com/issue/2013/2/cover-story#.WP5Rx9L1CM8

[CraftyHazel]

Ah, Bette...

[Growsonwalls]

I'm a little suspicious of the measurements, because the aesthetic of the 1930's seems to have put a premium on petite women with curvy busts and tiny waists. Many of them wore foundation undergarments that were sort of like corsets to keep this illusion. I have a hard time believing that Joan had a 37" bust and 24" waist without some restructuring. Especially since in later years her essential frame was squarish, with a kind of boy figure that led to the falsies and shoulder pads. 

[Jan Spears]

7 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

Now if you want to depict  a real life pathetic Norma Desmond end SL I think Norma Shearer would have been a prime candidate, much more so than Bette or even Joan.

She couldn't relate to her professor son (only having met her grandchildren once) , in all seriousness thought she couldn't' even go to the movies in the 80's because of the paparazzi that would mob her , and ended up calling her second husband Irving. 

Norma's end was very sad. She also wrote a letter to MGM executives demanding that reaction shots of her watching Clark Gable performing a musical number  in the 1974 tribute to the MGM musical, That's Entertainment!, be cut because she thought the shots made her, "look like an extra." The clips of her stayed in the movie, which went on to be a huge hit.

[enoughcats]

Real Life?  I got Joseph Cotton's autobiography Vanity will get you somewhere from the library especially to read his remembrances of Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte.  Two pages.  

But two gems about Joan Crawford.

First, in some book I've read in the past two weeks there was a mention that Joan Crawford married Al Steele for his money.  That's not the way Cotton remembered it and their first meeting happened at a dinner party at his house. p152

Quote

That evening, I witnessed a literal explosion of love at first sight.  When they were introduced, their eyes locked. They remained locked.  I remember them not touching their knives or forks during dinner, just sitting silently, staring across the table at one another.  The moment we got up, they darted out the front door, and the next we heard, they were married.

His memory of Joan Crawford and HHSC

Quote

Joan was finding her refinement of style difficult to weave into the strong and colorful pattern of raw emotions.

.....

A virus infection put her in the hospital.  She returned and tried her best to carry on, but she was too weak to continue.

 

[SinInTheCamp]

I've always regarded Mommie Dearest as the campiest of fun cult classics, but it irritates me to think of Christina being so thoroughly dismissed based on factors like her mother having defenders or her being on friendly terms with Joan just prior to her death.

I was abused (for a relatively brief period of time) by my own mother when I was young. I mostly blamed myself for years, indicting myself for things Christina has been accused of (being abrasive, strong-willed, self-centered, and on and on), and it has been only recently that I've been vocal about the extreme emotional pain I've kept inside me. All this time, I've continued to love my mom and have attempted to cultivate a good relationship with her, so I can't see Joan and Christina's alleged good terms at the end of the former's life as evidence that Christina is a liar. Most of us seek our parents' acceptance and approval--especially those of us who have felt rejected and demeaned by them in the past.

To my utter amazement, I found that none of my siblings believed my detailed memories of physical and emotional abuse. As with Christina/Christopher and the twins, there's an age difference between my siblings and me, and they have fond memories of my mother, who was in a much different place emotionally when she raised them--indeed, she's near sainthood in their eyes. Both age gaps and gender can really affect perceptions. Because I was too ashamed to speak up for all of those years and because I didn't want to rock the boat, they now accuse me of lying since I never spoke of these events earlier. Speaking about my experiences now that I'm no longer ashamed and afraid has strengthened me and improved my self-esteem, but it's also destroyed my reputation with my family. Like Joan, my mom's always been an attractive, vivacious woman with lots of friends ("fans!"), while I've always been rather reserved and "different." She denies that any abuse ever took place; whether she's too ashamed to admit it or has just erased it from her memory in her old age, I don't know. In any case, it's much easier for my family to believe that I'm a horrible person who's trying to make my mother look back (for what purpose or gain, I have no idea).

What I'm trying to say is that families can be extremely complicated and full of secrets. It's disturbing how often society seeks to discount and berate victim accounts, especially if the victim is a woman; also if the woman is pitted against a more beautiful or famous or well-loved person. And if the victim is adopted, how dare she speak up! Another factor that magnifies this way of thinking, I believe, is the adulation and martyr factor that we automatically ascribe to parents, especially mothers, and especially white mothers. They usually get the benefit of the doubt and are further martyred by the eventual courage of "ungrateful" children who are really just seeking some kind of closure and maybe an apology that will likely never arrive.

[enoughcats]

Sininthecamp,

Thank you for taking so much time to share that.  Sleep well tonight and in the future.  

There are some good fiction books out there.  Start with the mysteries of Josephine Tey.  (Library books are so much cheaper than booze and don't give hangovers.) ( I don't mean to be flip.  I had one really bad time of memories and I played "pong" until I got sleepy.  It was that long ago and I found I could function on only a few hours sleep.)

[caracas1914]

4 hours ago, Jan Spears said:

Norma's end was very sad. She also wrote a letter to MGM executives demanding that reaction shots of her watching Clark Gable performing a musical number  in the 1974 tribute to the MGM musical, That's Entertainment!, be cut because she thought the shots made her, "look like an extra." The clips of her stayed in the movie, which went on to be a huge hit.

The irony of that situation is that by then most of the viewing audience would have had no frigging idea who she was. Of all the great stars of the 30's she seemed to have dimmed the most as far as public consciousness.

[AgentRXS]

From the Bette Davis article linked above:

Quote

Why was she an outsider? At least partly, I think, because she was not a “safe” person to have around. She was capable of blowing up at any moment, and no host or hostess wanted to risk a fierce outburst in the middle of a delicately constructed social affair.

Quote

On the one hand she could be a moody and petulant bully, who carefully cultivated inflexible opinions and fostered great hates. On the other she was a sensitive woman who—provided you were one of the few people she really liked—cared deeply about your health and happiness.

No wonder I love Bette Davis so. She is me---minus the bullying. I am just moody and petulant when things aren't going my way. And boy, can I hold on to a grudge if I feel like it.

[asabovesobelow]

I keep Googling and I keep coming up short - does anyone know when Mamacita (Anna Marie Brinke) died? She's elusive. I was looking for a bio because I was kinda curious, but now since I'm unable to find anything on her, I'm obsessed.

[enoughcats]

6 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

- does anyone know when Mamacita (Anna Marie Brinke) died?

She went back to Austria.  How's your German? She was from Werdhol, West Germany in Nordrein Westphalia, just south of Dortmund which back then was a really major manufacturing center.

Checking on friends in Germany (I know, not Austria, but ....), I've found that a lot more is 'up' now than was ten years ago.  Also search functions over there seem to pick up names with some avoidance of first names- initials instead.

eta her maiden name was Hoffman according to an interview with the actress who played her.

And a picture

Edited April 25, 2017 by enoughcats
to add maiden name, how's that for obscure? and to get the hometown correct

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 4:38 PM, Jan Spears said:

Yes. I would be careful about treating any of these measurements as actual truth. Photoplay and the studios would have worked hand-in-hand to present the most idealized image possible of the female stars. I actually think some of the heights are a little suspect. I would put Crawford at closer to 5'3" and Norma Shearer at 5'2". (In her very interesting commentary track for the DVD release of The Best of Everything (1959), Rona Jaffe, who wrote the book on which the movie was based, estimated that Crawford was no taller than 5'0"!!!)

Another article, this one in Time Magazine from 2012, documents the increase in women's shoe sizes.  I had thought that  hand and foot sizes usually go together, but 7 is considered the "medium" glove size today (compared to 6 or more for many of the stars posted above), while average shoe size today is 8.5, compared to many 4s and 5s above. 

[ennui]

On 4/24/2017 at 9:03 AM, psychoticstate said:

If you've been to Mann's Chinese and seen the handprints and footprints out front, you know the shoe sizes are probably accurate.  

I remember touring Movieland  Wax Museum on a childhood family vacation. The wax figurines often wore original costumes, donated by the stars or by the studios, and they were petite women. Tour a car museum, and note how small the passenger spaces are, even in cars from the 1930s and 40s.

I suspect shoe sizes are bigger now because so many girls run around in flip flops. Feet spread a lot.

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

7 is considered the "medium" glove size

Jewelry stores still use size 7 rings for their samples. 

[caracas1914]

I think this sheds some light why it's hard to figure out what really happened in the Crawford household..

http://starsandletters.blogspot.com/2014/01/setting-record-straight.html

This excerpt from the Barbara Stanwyck letter, and mind you,  this is someone who was a friend of Joan's for decades...

Quote

"As you very well know, I was not a part of her family life when you children were little- so I could not be any help in that area."

How many of Joan's friends were actually privy to the private home life?   Not saying yay or nay, but just simply being over for dinner or lunch and then stating "I never saw any abuse", as so many of Joan's friends basically said (including her first husband who was out of the picture 15 years BEFORE she adopted the first of the chlldren) isn't irrefutable proof either.

Edited April 25, 2017 by caracas1914

[ThatsDarling]

On 4/24/2017 at 10:11 AM, Inquisitionist said:

Interesting that Davis said she voted for The Turning Point for Best Picture.  That film had two strong female leads (Shirley MacClaine and Anne Bancroft) whose characters engaged in a feud of their own.  It was nominated in 11 categories and won ZERO. That was the year of Annie Hall, and other big nominees were The Goodbye Girl (Richard Dreyfuss won for Best Actor), Julia, and Star Wars.

I love The Turning Point, especially for Anne Bancroft's performance as an aging ballerina being pushed out of the spotlight.

There's a moment in the film when her character meets Shirley MacClaine's grown children for the first time--she last saw them as babies--and wistfully asks, "They don't know how fast time goes, do they?" It's a beautiful, sad moment that captures so much of what the film is about. 

[Jan Spears]

18 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

The irony of that situation is that by then most of the viewing audience would have had no frigging idea who she was. Of all the great stars of the 30's she seemed to have dimmed the most as far as public consciousness.

It is interesting to compare the respective post-MGM fates of Norma Shearer and Greta Garbo. They both retired at roughly the same time; Shearer in 1942 and Garbo sometime in 1942-43. But, from there, their fates diverged wildly. Garbo's legendary self-imposed silence and reclusiveness played directly into her existing image and only served to magnify her fame a thousand fold. Shearer, while still active in Hollywood social circles for years afterwards (she discovered Janet Leigh and Robert Evans) also declined interview requests after retiring. That worked against her because people forgot about her fairly rapidly. It didn't help either that, unlike Garbo, her best films were made during the pre-Code/early talkie period (1929-1934) and were infrequently revived in revival theaters or shown on television in later years. It has only been with the advent of the DVD that she's developed something of a cult following for her pre-Code dramas.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Jan Spears

[caracas1914]

I always liked Norma Shearer but it also doesn't help that her acting (by today's standards) has dated quite badly, unlike , say, Greta Garbo, whose silent acting looks just as good now.  Take a film like "The Women", in their one big scene together she's wiped off the screen by Joan Crawford, who wasn't exactly known as a great thespian.   

Norma did have those  pre Code movies where she portrayed ( for it's time ) sexually liberated women, which in hindsight, was her best period but it's really a niche audience at best that has rediscovered her.    I'd say her male counterpart is the 30's  Paul Muni, whose acting has dated just as badly.

[Inscrutable1]

David Niven's book "The Moon is a Balloon" is a fun read. don't know how much is completely true.

 I remember something about Joan Craword in the book, so I looked it up.

She was a big help to him when his wife died in an accident. She looked after his children in her home for weeks after their mother's death.

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1995-06-11/entertainment/9506060421_1_joan-crawford-mommie-mother-and-daughter

[ennui]

I thought there was a style topic, but perhaps it was deleted ... Any jewelry geeks here, or just me? I loved the amethysts, and the platinum & diamond bracelet...

https://www.joancrawfordbest.com/jewelry.htm

[Melancholy]

Am I the only one who thinks Bette Davis, in her prime, was far more beautiful than Joan Crawford in *her* prime? JC's looks were overrated while BD's looks were underrated. That said, I think JC actually aged better than BD, especially around the time of What Ever Happened to Baby Jane. By all accounts, they were both heavy smokers and drinkers but I could particularly see the ravages of both on BD"s face and voice mostly. I think BD was a much heavier smoker. This series didn't reflect that dynamic because Jessica Lange looks far older than Susan Sarandon. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Melancholy

[Mindthinkr]

1 hour ago, ennui said:

I thought there was a style topic, but perhaps it was deleted ... Any jewelry geeks here, or just me? I loved the amethysts, and the platinum & diamond bracelet...

https://www.joancrawfordbest.com/jewelry.htm

Thank you for the clickable link. There was some beautiful Art Deco pieces in that array. I too love amethysts. Especially the very deep purple ones. 

[ennui]

12 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I think BD was a much heavier smoker. 

100 cigarettes a day, that's five packs. A day. 10 packs in a carton, that a carton of cigarettes every other day. She must have bought cigarettes by the truckload.

Joan was beautiful. 

Oh, good Lord, check out this letter from Bette:

Edited April 27, 2017 by ennui
ouch.

[Melancholy]

3 minutes ago, ennui said:

100 cigarettes a day, that's five packs. A day. 10 packs in a carton, that a carton of cigarettes every other day. She must have bought cigarettes by the truckload

Yeah, wow. Ravaging her looks aside, BD is quite lucky that she made it to 81. And while she had health problems later in life, they weren't prohibitive on continuing her career. 

[hippielamb]

On 4/23/2017 at 5:17 PM, Willowsmom said:

One of my great aunts wore a size 2 shoe. She was 4'10".

Feet do continue to spread. I always wore an 8.5 but now wear a 10.

That's interesting. I am 5 feet (on tippytoes lol) and wear a size 5. I have never seen shoes that small, and I have to search to find my size. 

[hippielamb]

11 minutes ago, ennui said:

100 cigarettes a day, that's five packs. A day. 10 packs in a carton, that a carton of cigarettes every other day. She must have bought cigarettes by the truckload.

Joan was beautiful. 

Oh, good Lord, check out this letter from Bette:

Holy hell! 

[ennui]

29 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

Thank you for the clickable link. There was some beautiful Art Deco pieces in that array. I too love amethysts. Especially the very deep purple ones. 

There's another link at the top of that page ("click here to see 12 photos plus descriptions..."), for more. The second link confirms her love affair with Clark Gable.

Edited April 27, 2017 by ennui

[le bordel chaud]

I've watched clips of Bette in Of Human Bondage when she was in her mid 20s, and she was quite stunning. Far more so than Joan in her youth. But Joan was very striking even in Baby Jane and certainly at the '63 Oscars. She aged very well.

[CraftyHazel]

2 hours ago, ennui said:

100 cigarettes a day, that's five packs. A day. 10 packs in a carton, that a carton of cigarettes every other day. She must have bought cigarettes by the truckload.

Joan was beautiful. 

Oh, good Lord, check out this letter from Bette:

I'm fairly certain that "letter" is completely fake.  Bette had a mouth on her, and she always said what she thought, but a letter like that is not her style, in my opinion.  Plus, I can't find any source for it.

[NutMeg]

9 hours ago, ennui said:

100 cigarettes a day, that's five packs. A day. 10 packs in a carton, that a carton of cigarettes every other day. She must have bought cigarettes by the truckload.

Joan was beautiful. 

Oh, good Lord, check out this letter from Bette:

Is that letter for real!?

6 hours ago, delicatecutter said:

I've watched clips of Bette in Of Human Bondage when she was in her mid 20s, and she was quite stunning. Far more so than Joan in her youth. But Joan was very striking even in Baby Jane and certainly at the '63 Oscars. She aged very well.

For what it's worth, I think Joan had the kind of features that looked better the older she got. She was stunning in her 40s-50s but not so much, in my view, in her 20s. Although in her 20s she probably fit the canon of  the time, I think like a fine wine she looked better and better with each passing year. 

6 hours ago, Marmiarmo said:

I'm fairly certain that "letter" is completely fake.  Bette had a mouth on her, and she always said what she thought, but a letter like that is not her style, in my opinion.  Plus, I can't find any source for it.

Pff, I hope you're right!

[newyawk]

On 4/25/2017 at 6:31 PM, caracas1914 said:

I think this sheds some light why it's hard to figure out what really happened in the Crawford household..

http://starsandletters.blogspot.com/2014/01/setting-record-straight.html

This excerpt from the Barbara Stanwyck letter, and mind you,  this is someone who was a friend of Joan's for decades...

How many of Joan's friends were actually privy to the private home life?   Not saying yay or nay, but just simply being over for dinner or lunch and then stating "I never saw any abuse", as so many of Joan's friends basically said (including her first husband who was out of the picture 15 years BEFORE she adopted the first of the chlldren) isn't irrefutable proof either.

FWIW, Kirk Douglas describes a date with Joan in his first book, "The Ragman's Son."

“All by herself, she was equivalent to my six sisters and my mother.'' wrote Douglas, adding that they went back to Crawford’s place after dinner. ''As soon as the door closed, she slipped out of her dress. There we were on the rug. In the middle of our lovemaking, she murmured, 'You're so clean. It's wonderful that you shaved your armpits when you made Champion.' A real conversation stopper. ... Afterward, we got dressed. She took me upstairs and proudly showed me the two children — how they were strapped so tightly to their beds, how she diapered them so efficiently. It was so professional, clinical, lacking in warmth, like the sex we had just had.''

[NutMeg]

I've only just discovered that there is a "Mysteries & Scandals" documentary series about Hollywood - has anyone seen it and is it good? It's rated 7.7 on IMDb, which is relatively high, so I'll probably give it a try when I'm out of other viewing material:)

[ennui]

4 hours ago, NutMeg said:

I've only just discovered that there is a "Mysteries & Scandals" documentary series about Hollywood - has anyone seen it and is it good? It's rated 7.7 on IMDb, which is relatively high, so I'll probably give it a try when I'm out of other viewing material:)

I remember that -- I double-checked, and yes, hosted by AJ Benza. 

[enoughcats]

11 hours ago, NutMeg said:

 

20 hours ago, ennui said:

100 cigarettes a day, that's five packs. A day. 10 packs in a carton, that a carton of cigarettes every other day. She must have bought cigarettes by the truckload.

Joan was beautiful. 

Oh, good Lord, check out this letter from Bette:

Is that letter for real!?

 

That letter is all over pinterest and redditt if you search "letters from bette davis"

https://www.google.com/search?q=letters+from+bette+davis&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzyazZzMXTAhVF5iYKHXhaC2kQ_AUICigB&biw=1120&bih=735#imgdii=78RVOtiGevYZjM:&imgrc=DqJigQjZi3fujM:

There are a surprisingly large number of letters from Joan Crawford there.  The Bette Davis signatures there....your choice as to veracity of the one above.  A key might be the underline and writing it at an angle.  What bothered me was how cheap the top of the page was.  Done with a child's printing set so the spacing wasn't quite right and whoever had the set was too cheap to have paid for the lower case letters.  

Anyway, back to searching for other letters. 

And this one, from Kate Hepburn on Spencer Tracey's stationery to Joan Crawford to thank Joan for her letter on Spencer's death.

Edited April 27, 2017 by enoughcats
to add the Hepburn letter to Joan from this time period

[dcubed]

9 hours ago, newyawk said:

FWIW, Kirk Douglas describes a date with Joan in his first book, "The Ragman's Son."

“All by herself, she was equivalent to my six sisters and my mother.'' wrote Douglas, adding that they went back to Crawford’s place after dinner. ''As soon as the door closed, she slipped out of her dress. There we were on the rug. In the middle of our lovemaking, she murmured, 'You're so clean. It's wonderful that you shaved your armpits when you made Champion.' A real conversation stopper. ... Afterward, we got dressed. She took me upstairs and proudly showed me the two children — how they were strapped so tightly to their beds, how she diapered them so efficiently. It was so professional, clinical, lacking in warmth, like the sex we had just had.''

I take anything that man said with a grain of salt;  he, the alleged rapist of Natalie Wood.  He probably had no appreciation for a woman that had sex willingly. 

[Mindthinkr]

19 minutes ago, dcubed said:

the alleged rapist of Natalie Wood.

What?? I never heard that.  Any resources where I can find out more?? I think of that beauty and her suspicious death, now hear this, and think what a tragedy. 

[dcubed]

9 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

What?? I never heard that.  Any resources where I can find out more?? I think of that beauty and her suspicious death, now hear this, and think what a tragedy. 

If you google the topic, lots comes up.  Of course, nothing has been substantiated but her sister always she she would reveal the rapist when she died.  Here's one thing I found:

 

http://whatculture.com/film/10-disturbing-truths-you-didnt-know-about-the-movie-industry?page=2

[Mindthinkr]

21 minutes ago, dcubed said:

If you google the topic, lots comes up.  Of course, nothing has been substantiated but her sister always she she would reveal the rapist when she died.  Here's one thing I found:

 

http://whatculture.com/film/10-disturbing-truths-you-didnt-know-about-the-movie-industry?page=2

Wow. Thank you for the clickable link. I can see that happening to Miss Wood and others unmentioned over the years. Heck it happens to the Jane Does of the world as well. I also liked #4. I can't believe the man who portrayed Darth Vader hasn't received a dime!  Nogoodniks. 

I must say that I'm impressed with a lot of you folk who have come on to these boards. Y'all do you research and add interesting tidbits and conversations. 

[ennui]

29 minutes ago, dcubed said:

If you google the topic, lots comes up.  Of course, nothing has been substantiated but her sister always she she would reveal the rapist when she died.  Here's one thing I found:

Lana Wood is homeless, I read today. Maybe it's time to negotiate.