Game of Marriage: Alliances

[Luckylyn]

I was thinking about what Dany said about marriage being a way to forge alliances.  I do wonder if she will be like Queen Elizabeth I and use the possibility of marriage for leverage while never ever marrying.  

I think an alliance between Jon and Dany is likely.  Tyrion and Theon both sympathize with the North and would probably try to push for Dany to work with the North.  Sansa might be willing to agrue for a merger considering her history with Tyrion and Theon.  It's just a matter of if it's an alliance through marriage or by her making him her heir.   If Jon's the heir who he marries is critical.  I don't think there will be a love match for him because he won't repeat Robb's error.  Lyanna is made of awesome and would make a fantastic partner once she comes of age, but they are already allied quite strongly.  Sansa may be his cousin but they have been raised as siblings.  Plus, Jon doesn't need Sansa to connect him to the North because he has a claim to the North through his mother.  I think Jon will have to marry someone who does not come from the North.  Who?  Margery's dead. Cersei might try to propose in order to get the North on her side against Dany but I can't see Jon ever trusting Cersei considering the history between their families and what Cersei has done to her own allies.  Could Jon marry someone from Dorne or Yara?  Who else is there?

Who's running the Riverlands now?  Whose going to head the Frays now that the males are dead?  Would Jon marry whichever daughter is now in charge?  Or does Edumure take charge through his Fray wife?  

Marriage to Sansa has been viewed as a way to gain control in the North.  After what she has been through, I imagine she's be pretty reluctant to marry.  Still she's become a political person and probably recognizes that marriage is a way to help strengthen alliances.  Would Tyrion be a possibility? 

What about the Vale, Robin, and Littlefinger?  I wonder if Sansa would try to maneuver around Littlefinger by marrying Robin and taking the Vale into her control.  I don't know if she could manage that since Littlefinger isn't likely to let control of the Vale go easily.  Also once Bran returns to the fold Sansa's position weakens and marriage may be the only way for her create a powerful position for herself.   

I think since Yara beat her opponent to make an alliance with Dany first I wonder if Euron will propose an alliance with Cersei who is in desperate need of allies and could use ship power to aid her in the coming battle with Dany.  Are we going to get a Cersei, Euron, Littlefinger alliance?  Imagine Cersei/Littlefinger married and on the warpath together temporarily until they inevitably turn on each other.

Jaime was pushed out of the Kingsguard by Tommen.  He can now marry.  Will he break from Cersei to make a political marriage against her interests or will he side with Cersei and she marry him to someone for her political gain?

edited to add:  I forgot about Gendry who is the last Bartheon left.   Is he Dany's future husband?  

[AimingforYoko]

Jon seems like the obvious choice for Dany, he's "King of the North", he has no ambitions beyond that and even if Bran ends up telling him he's her nephew, that's never stopped a Targaryen before.

[Luckylyn]

2 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Jon seems like the obvious choice for Dany, he's "King of the North", he has no ambitions beyond that and even if Bran ends up telling him he's her nephew, that's never stopped a Targaryen before.

I've been trying to think of who it be most politically useful for Dany to marry and Jon is at the top of the list.  But he can be useful without marriage as an heir. Who else is there?  Jaime, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Gendry, Bran....?

[amandawoods]

Does Dany really need to marry anyone?  I always kind of liked that about her. Her dragons are going to be useful with the WW.  I don't think she even has to marry Jon to gain an alliance.  I can't see Jon wanting to go south or Dany wanting to stay up north.  

Did we ever have any confirmation that she was barren too?  

[Athena]

I modified the tag in this thread to be "No Book Talk" since I believe that was the intention.

Dany would have no benefit marrying Gendry. He has no legitimacy. While he is a nice guy, there is no strategic reason since he has no land, title, or armies. Not useful for her at all. Though if there is a love match and crack ship Gendry/Dany... sure. Jon (with Sansa's support) has all of the aforementioned things. Right now, no one one knows about Jon's parentage other than Bran. I highly doubt it's going to be on Westeros News either when he does make it back home. I don't think it'll matter much in the bigger scheme  though the central characters may grapple with it.

I think Dany believes the curse and thinks she is barren. However, that does not mean she can't hint about being available to marry a la Elizabeth I. It's a smart move by Tyrion and Dany to even dangle it in front of other people.

[Hana Chan]

Monarchies are all about the continuation of the line. If Dany doesn't marry and doesn't have any children, than the Targ reign dies (again) with her. She could, of course, designate an heir, but that's always precarious unless it's an heir that would be popular with at least the noble houses. Otherwise we're looking at another rebellion and more fighting for the throne.

Whoever takes over the throne will have to marry (to help consolidate power) and have children (to create a built it pathway for the continuation of that power). Otherwise there is little point to Dany trying to conquer Westeros.

[Luckylyn]

1 minute ago, Athena said:

I modified the tag in this thread to be "No Book Talk" since I believe that was the intention.

 

Thank you.  It was.  I wasn't sure what tag was most appropriate.

I totally think Dany's marriage prospects will be a carrot to dangle in front of various houses but that Dany won't necessarily marry anyone.  

[Luckylyn]

2 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Monarchies are all about the continuation of the line. If Dany doesn't marry and doesn't have any children, than the Targ reign dies (again) with her. She could, of course, designate an heir, but that's always precarious unless it's an heir that would be popular with at least the noble houses. Otherwise we're looking at another rebellion and more fighting for the throne.

Whoever takes over the throne will have to marry (to help consolidate power) and have children (to create a built it pathway for the continuation of that power). Otherwise there is little point to Dany trying to conquer Westeros.

Which is why I think Jon is more useful to Dany as a trustworthy heir.  He would not try to push her out to rule himself and would perpetuate the family line through his children which is much needed if Dany is barren.   Elizabeth I maintained power without marriage and had a peaceful transition to her heir who was not her child.   James King of Scotland was the son of a Queen she'd had executed if I remember correctly.   Elizabeth I also waited until the last minute to declare an heir.  I do think it's in Dany's best interests to pretend to seriously consider marriage alliances but remain single.  Any husband she took is a potential rival to the throne unless it's someone like Jon who doesn't want it.  I think if Jon's heir his marriage will be the thing that has to happen to solidify the Targaryen line of succession. 

[Cyranetta]

Quote

What about the Vale, Robin, and Littlefinger?  I wonder if Sansa would try to maneuver around Littlefinger by marrying Robin and taking the Vale into her control.  I don't know if she could manage that since Littlefinger isn't likely to let control of the Vale go easily.  Also once Bran returns to the fold Sansa's position weakens and marriage may be the only way for her create a powerful position for herself.   

For the sake of her sanity, I hope Sansa does not get mired in a marriage with that noxious cousin. Given his delight in "making people fly" the minute he's crossed, and a likely quite strange sexual expression, control of the Vale and countering Littlefinger seems like quite a small benefit for a possible lifetime of what amounts to nervous babysitting.

[Luckylyn]

Littlefinger is very dangerous.  He agreed to help Ned but instead sided with the Lanisters.  He married Robin's mother and murdered her.  He helped murder Joffery with Olenna.  He's probably planning for Robin to have an "accident" the second Robin becomes difficult to control.  He is capable of going after Jon to eliminate any threats from the North.  He manages to shift alliances without harming himself.   I do think he eventually planned to rescue Sansa from Ramsey when it suited him politically to do so.  Then through marrying her control the North.  Sansa escaping with Theon and Brienne's help, and Jon ascendance to King have blocked his plans.   He underestimated how hostile Sansa would be towards him for leaving her with the Boltons.   He seems to be trying to cause a wedge between Jon and Sansa.   Now he's a wildcard because his original plan hasn't gone as expected.   That's why I think a Cersei/Littlefinger team up is a serious possibility.  It's another path to get Littlefinger closer to the Iron Throne and Cersei has no allies left.   So I see Sansa going after Littlefinger's powerbase in the Vale as a real possibility.  He has nothing to offer Cersei without the Vale army.   Robin is Littlefinger's potential Achilles heel if someone manages to separate him from Littlefinger and through Robin get control of the Vale.

I wonder how ruthless Sansa can get.  Could she marry Robin and then eliminate him so she can have total control of the Vale if she felt it was the only option to protect everyone from Littlefinger?

[bluvelvet]

I don't think Cersei would marry anyone, right now she wants all the power to herself and she isn't forward thinking enough to realize the advantages of an alliance. As for Dany, she is open to marriage as a means to gain alliances but if she is truly barren that would throw a wrench into the whole scheme of things. Right now away from Jon I can't think of any other eligible males, well maybe Jaime but I don't see the advantage in that.

[truelovekiss]

7 hours ago, amandawoods said:

 

Did we ever have any confirmation that she was barren too?  

I never got why sue thought she was barren. I don't remember the witch's exact phrasing, but I do remember being like "wtf?!" when Daenerys referred to the dragons as the only children she would ever have. I was surprised and I thought I missed something. 

5 hours ago, Cyranetta said:

For the sake of her sanity, I hope Sansa does not get mired in a marriage with that noxious cousin. Given his delight in "making people fly" the minute he's crossed, and a likely quite strange sexual expression, control of the Vale and countering Littlefinger seems like quite a small benefit for a possible lifetime of what amounts to nervous babysitting.

Robin is definitely a creep, and I hope that Sansa doesn't marry him just because he's super annoying. Also, I think she deserves to have some happy time in Winterfell. But I think Sansa has also learned a lot about politics and marriage, and I think Robin would be super easy for her to manipulate and control, kind of like Tommen was for Margaery. And like how Margaery had to fight with Cersei to control Tommen, Sansa will be in a continuous fight with Littlefinger.

[Luckylyn]

Cersei's options are limited.  Her best allies were the Tyrells, and she's murdered most of them.  The Frays are useless to her now and the Boltons are dead.   I can't think of any houses currently who would work with her.  Dany's on her way with a large army, 3 dragons, and allies who are gunning for Cersei.  The Lannister fortune has dwindled.  I think she may have to at least consider alliances with people like Euron and Littlefinger out of necessity.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Luckylyn

[CrashTextDummie]

Euron Greyjoy is in the market to marry a Queen. Unfortunately for him his intended has recently made a pact against him, but another queen just became available.

[truelovekiss]

5 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Littlefinger is very dangerous.  He agreed to help Ned but instead sided with the Lanisters.  He married Robin's mother and murdered her.  He helped murder Joffery with Olenna.  He's probably planning for Robin to have an "accident" the second Robin becomes difficult to control.  He is capable of going after Jon to eliminate any threats from the North.  He manages to shift alliances without harming himself.   I do think he eventually planned to rescue Sansa from Ramsey when it suited him politically to do so. 

I agree with this, and the bolded just makes me dislike Littlefinger more. He delivered her to Ramsay knowing full well what would happen to her, and honestly I don't think he cared. I think he just thought it wouldwould make him seem better by comparison. 

I don't think Littlefinger loves Sansa. I don't even think he loved Catelyn. I think he loves himself above all, and marrying Sansa (and being on the Iron Throne) would be more of a "fuck you" to everyone who looked down on him, including Catelyn (posthumously). She thought she and her family thought she was too good for him, so instead he'll marry her hotter daughter.

To him, Sansa is a pawn that could get him the North, Riverrun, and babies to perpetuate House Baelish.

[truelovekiss]

1 hour ago, CrashTextDummie said:

Euron Greyjoy is in the market to marry a Queen. Unfortunately for him his intended has recently made a pact against him, but another queen just became available.

I doubt Cersei would give him (or anyone) the time of day. First of all, Euron is small potatoes.  I  doubt Cersei cares much about the Iron Islands, and she won't until Daenerys shows up. At that point it might be too late. Secondly, I think Cersei's shrewd mind is slipping. I think without her children, she isn't concerned with her legacy anymore and isn't going to marry again. Even to keep the crown, I think she's finally "the boss" of herself and doesn't want to relinquish any power.

[Chris24601]

My take is that Dany gets almost nothing in a marriage to Jon because it doesn't secure an alliance she couldn't get already simply by acknowledging him as her nephew. This goes double if she IS truly barren or never marries and she makes Jon (or one of Jon's children) her heir.

Honestly, the best bet for Dany is probably the one already beside her. Because of Cersei's actions, House Lannister and the Westerlands are going to be her biggest obstacle in securing the southern portions of Westeros (she's already got alliances with Dorne, the Reach and Iron Islands). Once Cersei and Jaime are dealt with Tyrion becomes heir to that very same area and a marriage brings that territory into Dany's fold.

The other major advantage of Tyrion over other candidates is that any man she marries is the same one expressed by Yara about Euron... that her husband would be a threat to her own rule, in part because of the patriarchal traditions. As a dwarf, Tyrion will not have the same allure for the kingmakers of a powerful male leader to undermine her like Jon would.

As for Jon, I think his best bet politically is going to be Sansa. Dany doesn't net him any additional advantages he does not already have as Dany's nephew/heir. In contrast, the revelation of his parentage is something of a mixed blessing as he was made King in the North largely due to the belief that he is Ned's bastard. Him being Lyanna's son while Ned's trueborn are still alive and the bad blood that probably still exists over Rhaegar running off with Lyanna could put a dent in his legitimacy and make his rule more difficult and more contested than it would have been as simply Ned's bastard.

A marriage to Ned's eldest trueborn daughter settles a lot of those issues (Jon acts as king via marriage to Ned's heir) and prevents strife for future generations (i.e. Sansa's kids or grandkids might rise up against Jon's kids/grandkids via claims of having been cheated out of the throne that is rightfully theirs... unless those kids/grandkids are one and the same). Further, Sansa remains pretty high on the list of succession in the Riverlands (after Edmure, his putative son and Bran) and Sansa is first cousin to the Lord of the Vale... so she brings some valuable family alliances outside of those that a Stark alone could bring.

To sum it up...

• Dorne: existing alliance via Ellaria Sand (probably legitimized as Ellaria Martell at some point).
• The Reach: existing alliance with Lady Olenna.
• Iron Islands: existing alliance with Yara Greyjoy.
• Westerlands: marriage alliance with Tyrion Lannister of Casterly Rock.
• Crownlands and Stormlands: appoint new leadership by right of conquest since the current leadership has been completely wiped out.
• The North: alliance via her nephew and heir being the King in the North.
• Riverlands and Vale: alliance via blood ties of her nephew's wife.

That puts the entire Seven Kingdoms into Targaryen hands in a relatively peaceful and stable manner via two marriages; Dany/Tyrion and Jon/Sansa.

[Oscirus]

But Sansa gets nothing out of such a marriage that she didn't have before.

Tyrion marrying Dany does nothing for her either. He's already her hand and is actively supporting her. Dany's best bet would be one of the unseen tyrell cousins as a way of locking down that alliance with them after Cersei's dealt with.

Jon's best bet is the northern daughter of one of the less supportive houses.

[Luckylyn]

I think Jon needs a Southern wife.  He has the Northern support locked down.   Who though? 

[Chris24601]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

But Sansa gets nothing out of such a marriage that she didn't have before.

Sansa gets plenty out of the union. First, she becomes Queen in the North/Lady of Winterfell. Second, she's marrying the nephew (and most likely heir) of the Queen of Westeros so her children would be pretty high in line to inherit the entire Seven Kingdoms as a result (and almost certainly if Dany has no children of her own). Finally, it would also be a solid marriage alliance that would eliminate any need for Dany to try and take the North by force of arms/dragons because her nephew is already its King.

Jon gains better legitimacy in the North (particularly since both him being Lyanna's and not Ned's and being Rhaegar's son will undermine, but not completely negate, his authority), forestalls future strife in the North (by ensuring that his children and Ned's grandchildren are one and the same) and improves his family ties to the Vale and the Riverlands (ruled by Sansa's cousin and uncle respectively).

Those are some pretty solid gains for them both.

[Oscirus]

Jon wants a southern wife but he needs a bad pussy. Perhaps he can combine the two ?

[Oscirus]

Quote

Sansa gets plenty out of the union. First, she becomes Queen in the North/Lady of Winterfell. Second, she's marrying the nephew (and most likely heir) of the Queen of Westeros so her children would be pretty high in line to inherit the entire Seven Kingdoms as a result (and almost certainly if Dany has no children of her own). Finally, it would also be a solid marriage alliance that would eliminate any need for Dany to try and take the North by force of arms/dragons because her nephew is already its King.

He doesn't yet know about Dany so that can't be used as a reason. As for westeros, he's not king yet. As for winterfell, as you already pointed out, she has plenty of titles, lady of Winterfell is really not all that important when she already has all the access she needs.

[Luckylyn]

What about Bran?  He is Ned's last legitimate male heir.  Jon has been given legitimacy from the Northern lords, and they might stick with him even after Bran returns.  What happens when Jon's true paternity gets revealed?   What effect will Bran have on Sansa and Jon's positions?  Sansa has already been surpassed by Jon and Bran returning would lower her position further.  I think marriage may be her way to create a powerful position for herself which is why I think the Robin/Sansa marriage or a Tyrion/Sansa marriage is possible.  Sansa's marriage could be how Jon gets a hold in the south or how Sansa undercuts Littlefinger.  It depends on what Sansa's goals are and what strategies she's willing to pursue.  Jon won't force her into marriage.  It will be up to her what comes next as long as Jon is in charge.  If Jon loses his hold on the north than Sansa is at risk to be someone's pawn all over again.

[Hana Chan]

Sansa's links to the Vale and the Riverlands through her mother's side would certainly give a bond with the South to satisfy a strategic marriage to Jon (and being first cousins makes their family link just distant enough for propriety). Of all the possible marriage outcomes for both of them, it makes the most sense and would totally undercut Littlefinger's claims to... well, to anything.

As for Bran... he's unfortunately very limited by his physical state, but I can see him taking over as Lord of Winterfell in a time of peace. Especially if Jon is named as Dany's heir. The position won't require him to be so much of a war leader. There is a question of him being able to father heirs (we've never had his virility confirmed), but a strategic marriage to a norther house (Lady Mormont, perhaps) will provide stability in the region.

It's a real shame that so many of the great houses have been pretty decimated, as it really limits the matchmaking...

[Luckylyn]

20 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

It's a real shame that so many of the great houses have been pretty decimated, as it really limits the matchmaking...

It really makes creating alliances difficult when so many are dead.  Margery/Jon really could have been a powerful match but she's gone. 

[Chris24601]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

He doesn't yet know about Dany so that can't be used as a reason. As for westeros, he's not king yet. As for winterfell, as you already pointed out, she has plenty of titles, lady of Winterfell is really not all that important when she already has all the access she needs.

Yes, Jon IS a king, that was kinda the point of the final episode of the season. He's King in the North and if anyone says otherwise they're welcome to try invading the North in the dead of Winter to prove otherwise. Other than Dany's dragons (and even that's iffy as we don't know how well they deal with cold) there's not a force in existence that could invade the North with winter on the way. Jon's got years to legitimize his rule before any of the other realms could even hope to invade.

Second, why can't Jon being Dany's nephew be used as a reason? It's not like he's sending out invites to "The Bachelor: Winterfell edition" tomorrow. He's got much bigger priorities at the moment and it won't be too long before Bran makes it to a place where he can share the info with Jon. Jon not knowing as of the end of episode 610 when any such resolution wouldn't come until the end of season seven at the earliest is just the height of ridiculousness.

Also, Sansa does NOT currently have any titles beyond the generic Lady Sansa of House Stark. She is highly placed to potentially succeed at Winterfell and Riverrun, but her greatest asset right now is that she is closely related to the Lord of the Vale, the King in the North and the rightful Lord of Riverrun so that a marriage to her grants a connection to the leadership of the regions that border the North.

Narratively though, Sansa marrying Jon and becoming Lady of Winterfell is basically the way to grant both of them what they wanted in the books at the same time (rather than one or the other) in a way that is unexpected to general audiences. That its not exactly a traditional romantic happy ending (its basically the best of a set of really sucky alternatives) also fits right in with GRRM's storytelling.

Storywise in regards the show we're also just out of time for any other arrangement to be narratively satisfying. Based on her finale scene, Arya's going after vengeance which means NOT going to Winterfell anytime soon and Dany's going to be busy in the south for probably the bulk of season seven as well. That leaves six episodes in the middle of a zombie apocalypse to sell Arya or Dany as Jon's happy ending to an audience that wants a satisfying ending. That's just not going to work.

So while Arya's busy with vengeance and Dany's trying to consolidate the south/fight Cersei what are Jon and Sansa doing? All anyone's talking about is what is Littlefinger going to do to turn Sansa against Jon and who will Sansa choose. Jon and Sansa each have issues they have to overcome to work together to defeat the villain who wants the girl and the kingdom for himself.

Boil that down and it hits you in the face... Jon and Sansa are getting the structure of a romance arc (with Baelish as the third side of the love triangle) as their story next season.

[Oscirus]

Quote

Yes, Jon IS a king, that was kinda the point of the final episode of the season. He's King in the North and if anyone says otherwise they're welcome to try invading the North in the dead of Winter to prove otherwise

Or Dany could wait out winter and then bring the combined forced of the iron men, the dothraki, the unsullied, the tyrells and the dornish to prove it. KITN is more of a ceremonial title given to the Stark family  as a sign of respect. It's not an actual title, otherwise, Jon wouldn't have gotten it.

Quote

Also, Sansa does NOT currently have any titles beyond the generic Lady Sansa of House Stark. She is highly placed to potentially succeed at Winterfell and Riverrun, but her greatest asset right now is that she is closely related to the Lord of the Vale, the King in the North and the rightful Lord of Riverrun so that a marriage to her grants a connection to the leadership of the regions that border the North.

I know what Jon gets out of such a marriage. But what does Sansa get out of it?  The whole point of her current arc is that she wants to be respected. Her being married to Jon doesn't get her that. It just gets her the ceremonial title of qitn.

If they pull the title from Jon because his dad ain't Ned, I doubt that they'd give it back just because Sansa married him.

The way that D and D structure their villains is that D and D gives them everything they want and then they pull the rug out from under said villain. I suspect they follow the same path with Littlefinger, it won't be something as simple as Sansa and Jon combining to take him down in Winterfell.

They could get married but if they do it won't be political, it'll be because they're romantically inclined towards one another.

[CofCinci]

Maybe Bronn can marry Cersei....  Wait, Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn had a very messy real-life break up and the two will never be in a scene together.

[domina89]

Not that I think this would ever happen, but what if Jon married Sam's sister?  It would be an alliance with the South (admittedly not Highgarden but a prominent lower house nonetheless), and it would help smooth things over for Sam with his family if his BFF the King raised his family up in prominence.  She might be too young, though- I can't remember how old she's supposed to be... 

Downside- who wants Randyll Tarly for a father-in-law?  

[Harald Hardrada]

3 hours ago, domina89 said:

Not that I think this would ever happen, but what if Jon married Sam's sister?  It would be an alliance with the South (admittedly not Highgarden but a prominent lower house nonetheless)

I believe House Tarly is the third strongest house in the Reach, after the Tyrells and Redwynes. Randyll did fought for the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion and successfully defeated some of Robert's forces.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Harald Hardrada

[bluvelvet]

Dany can wait out winter but that will be years, and it's been said over and over again that this will be the longest winter yet, so it could be 5, 10 or 15 years. Those years will be enough for Jon to solidify his rule. 

[Luckylyn]

On 7/1/2016 at 9:06 AM, domina89 said:

Not that I think this would ever happen, but what if Jon married Sam's sister?  It would be an alliance with the South (admittedly not Highgarden but a prominent lower house nonetheless), and it would help smooth things over for Sam with his family if his BFF the King raised his family up in prominence.  She might be too young, though- I can't remember how old she's supposed to be... 

Downside- who wants Randyll Tarly for a father-in-law?  

Jon needs Southern support and a marriage between Jon and Sam's sister could offer him an alliance that would further limit the Lannisters.   Cersei has King's landing under her thumb but the rest of Westeros is not guaranteed to support her. She has betrayed and/or murdered all of her allies.   Sam and Jon's close friendship may be a hindrance to a possible alliance instead of an aid.  What if the Tarly  aligned themselves with Dany instead?  What about Sansa? Would she marry Sam's brother as a way to get Southern support or will she go after Littlefinger's power in the Vale through Robin?  Jon won't force Sansa into marriage and so she has a lot of power to choose her next step. 

I do think Jon/Dany will become allies eventually, but I do not think it will happen easily.  From Jon's perspective, Dany's a foreign invader who will cause more instability at a time when Jon needs to unite everyone against the White Walkers.   How Dany approaches him will be important.  Aggression will not work on Jon or the North in general.  Jon is very pragmatic and does not have Dany's ambition.  He can't be bought or intimidated.  He wants to save everyone regardless of the cost to himself.  She needs to win him over the right way.  That is where Tyrion's diplomacy will be  very important.   Sansa/Tyrion may unite in marriage again to secure an alliance between Jon/Dany depending on how Sansa feels about working with Dany. 

Dany's in a strong position, but there are potential problems for her.  She has an army made up of people with no experience fighting in the freezing northern climates.  The Dorne/Tyrell alliance is very fragile.   There's past bad blood.  Plus, Olenna was part of the conspiracy to murder Joffery and the framing of Sansa and Tyrion.  This led to Oberyn's death in combat defending Tryion.  If the truth about Joffery gets out than Dany will have a war between houses who are supposed to be her allies. Also Dorne and the Tyrells want vengeance above all else which can help or hurt Dany whose goal is to take over all of Westeros.  When the truth of Jon's parentage gets revealed, it can undercut her claim and Jon has an advantage because he actually grew up in Westeros and has made his good reputation among the people Dany needs on her side while she's a stranger to them.  Lucky for her Jon doesn't want the Iron Throne but that doesn't mean others won't try to maneuver him there the same way he didn't want to be Lord Commander or King of the North and ended up with those positions.

Dany's rationale for going after Westeros is entitlement which isn't something that will resonate with the people living in Westeros.  She doesn't have an issue yet to get people on her side like she had with wanting to end slavery in Mereen.  This is where the Northern cause becomes important because Dany can use the threat of White Walkers as an advantage.  She can sell the I'm the best leader because I have the best weapons (the dragons) to defeat the White Walkers but that will take time since so many people still don't believe the White Walkers are a real threat.  I do think a marriage between Jon/Dany, Sansa/Tryion or Jon becoming Dany's heir will be critical. 

[Luckylyn]

I wonder what Littlefinger's response to Dany's arrival will be.  Would he give up his pursuit of Sansa in favor of Dany who is a more powerful ally?  I could see him try to use Dany to take out his enemies and then try to eliminate her once he's married her to take the Iron Throne for himself.  He will find that Dany is way more difficult to manipulate than Lysa.  What could Littlefinger offer Dany?   He has the Vale but someone like Jon has the North as a whole to offer.  Maybe Littlefinger will try to worm his way into an advisory position for Dany but people like Varys and Tyrion would block him.  He might try to prevent an alliance between Dany/Jon.   He could manipulate things to make sure certain parties stay opponents.  He could decide to side with Cersei to try to push Jon down.  Littlefinger could really do a lot of damage or be surprisingly helpful depending on what path he thinks will bring him closer to his goal.  His only loyalty is to himself.

[Maximum Taco]

On 7/1/2016 at 9:06 AM, domina89 said:

Not that I think this would ever happen, but what if Jon married Sam's sister?  It would be an alliance with the South (admittedly not Highgarden but a prominent lower house nonetheless), and it would help smooth things over for Sam with his family if his BFF the King raised his family up in prominence.  She might be too young, though- I can't remember how old she's supposed to be... 

Downside- who wants Randyll Tarly for a father-in-law?  

The other downside is it places the Tarlys firmly in Jon's camp, perhaps surrounded by enemies, if the Queen on the Iron Throne doesn't take kindly to the North's secession from the Kingdoms. 

It would be difficult for Daenerys (or anyone on the Iron Throne) to allow a subject in the heart of the Reach to be so closely allied with a foreign King, effectively granting that King lands within their dominion.

If the Iron Throne is unwilling to accept the North's sovereignty, the Tarlys could face, at best, a frosty relationship with their neighbors, and at worst an embargo or even siege of their lands and castle.

Jon would be safe in the North, the winter snows preventing any invasion, in the temperate Reach, on the other hand, the Tarlys would be taking a terrible risk putting their trust in a foreign King whose army would be unavailable to protect them until winter passes. 

Edited July 9, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Eyes High]

On 2016-07-05 at 3:13 PM, Luckylyn said:

What about Sansa? Would she marry Sam's brother as a way to get Southern support or will she go after Littlefinger's power in the Vale through Robin?  Jon won't force Sansa into marriage and so she has a lot of power to choose her next step. 

I doubt Sansa would enter into a marriage of convenience again, after the Ramsay debacle. Even if she pursues power, I imagine she'll try to pursue it outside of marriage alliances, no matter how many doors that closes for her.

Quote

[Jon] wants to save everyone regardless of the cost to himself.  She needs to win him over the right way.  That is where Tyrion's diplomacy will be very important.

Will it? I agree that Jon wants to save everyone and has no great pride when it comes to power. All Dany needs to do is provide proof that she has three dragons that can wipe out armies of wights within minutes, and Jon will concede whatever he needs to concede to get Dany on board. Tyrion's real work, if any, will be convincing Dany that Jon is one of the good ones and is trustworthy.

Quote

Sansa/Tyrion may unite in marriage again to secure an alliance between Jon/Dany depending on how Sansa feels about working with Dany. 

This I doubt. Sansa and Tyrion don't need to rehash their marriage for Jon and Dany to agree to work together; Olenna and Ellaria decided to work together against the Lannisters without requiring a marriage to seal the deal. Besides, Tyrion was making cow eyes at Dany in 6x10, and Sansa is unlikely to want to marry again, much less marry for purely political reasons.

Quote

If the truth about Joffery gets out than Dany will have a war between houses who are supposed to be her allies.

The only people other than Olenna who know that truth are Littlefinger and Sansa. Olenna's too smart to run her mouth about it to Ellaria, and Littlefinger and Sansa are too far north to go whispering in Olenna and Ellaria's ears anytime soon, unless they accompany Dany north (which seems unlikely). Even if Littlefinger and Sansa communicate that information to Ellaria, it's hard to believe that she would object to Joffrey dying, or change her opinion that the Lannisters were responsible for Oberyn's death.

As for Tyrion getting mad at Olenna because she allowed him to take the blame for Joffrey's death, or at Ellaria because she murdered Myrcella, I believe he would swallow his anger for Dany's sake.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Eyes High

[Luckylyn]

I think Sansa might marry again  but only if she thinks it's a necessity and she feels in control of the situation.  Marriage can be a path to power, and I think Sansa wants to be in a position of power.  I do wonder if she can take control of whatever is left of the Boltons because of her marriage to Ramsey.   Who is the Bolton heir?

I wonder if the Tarly's will end up working with Cersei.  Cersei's a bad ally because she's betrayed or murdered everyone but she's also dangerous because she so intensely vindictive and ruthless. 

Jon's intentions when it comes to the Lannisters are a question mark because his focus is uniting the North against the White Walkers.  Cersei most likely will have to come after him in the North and she's at a disadvantage because the Boltons and Freys are no longer useful.  She lacks funds and food  in order to maintain her power unless she gets more allies.   The Kingdom is divided with multiple groups seeking sovereignty and now Dany is coming.

[Ambrosefolly]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As for Tyrion getting mad at Olenna because she allowed him to take the blame for Joffrey's death, or at Ellaria because she murdered Myrcella, I believe he would swallow his anger for Dany's sake.

That is a pretty big thing to overcome. Would Dany overlook Jaime killing her father and failing to protect her sister in law, niece and nephew for Tyrion's sake, even though in the case of her father, he was justified to do so? One of the great injustices of Robert's Rebellion was that the Mountain and Tywin were pardoned and rewarded for the deaths Elia and her children. While everything turned out well after Joffrey and that was due to a huge amount of luck with Varys and Jaime, he did spend weeks in a cell and was in constant fear he would be executed or even murdered by Cersei. With Marcella (and Trystan and Doran),  Ellria and the Sand Snakes murdered and innocent girl and arguably drove Cersei over the edge to blow up the Sept of Balor and everyone in there. One thing I will grant in Dany's favor is that she does care about true justice, especially after she indiscriminately executed the Lords of Mereen without trials. Dany doesn't need Ellria, who has no claim to Dorne except for being Oberyn's common law wife or the those 3 Sand Snakes. She can execute those 4 and have one of Oberyn's remaining daughters rule Dorne.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[FemmyV]

Wouldn't it be funny if Ned was the one who was right, about Arya, all along? “You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”

[Eyes High]

13 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

That is a pretty big thing to overcome. Would Dany overlook Jaime killing her father and failing to protect her sister in law, niece and nephew for Tyrion's sake, even though in the case of her father, he was justified to do so? One of the great injustices of Robert's Rebellion was that the Mountain and Tywin were pardoned and rewarded for the deaths Elia and her children. While everything turned out well after Joffrey and that was due to a huge amount of luck with Varys and Jaime, he did spend weeks in a cell and was in constant fear he would be executed or even murdered by Cersei. With Marcella (and Trystan and Doran),  Ellria and the Sand Snakes murdered and innocent girl and arguably drove Cersei over the edge to blow up the Sept of Balor and everyone in there. One thing I will grant in Dany's favor is that she does care about true justice, especially after she indiscriminately executed the Lords of Mereen without trials. Dany doesn't need Ellria, who has no claim to Dorne except for being Oberyn's common law wife or the those 3 Sand Snakes. She can execute those 4 and have one of Oberyn's remaining daughters rule Dorne.

Tyrion's not dumb enough to try to turn Dany against Olenna and Ellaria while Dany still requires Tyrell and Dorne support. If Dany is weakened then Tyrion is weakened, and he knows that his chances of survival are now directly linked to Dany's success; he's not going to do anything that would strip Dany of support. As for Dany, she knows that if she executes her allies for their crimes once she no longer has any use for them, despite being okay with their crimes when she needed their help, she's going to get a reputation as Aerys III very quickly. If she was sufficiently pragmatic to accept the help of scumbags who murdered their prince, executing them once she no longer needed them on principle would be the height of hypocrisy. Also, it seems likely that Ellaria stipulated as part of her deal with Varys that she and the Sand Snakes would be granted immunity for their crimes against the Martells. Otherwise, why bother?

The comparison to Jaime doesn't really work since Olenna and Ellaria's crimes were against the Martells and the Lannisters, not Dany's family members. Dany seems to like Tyrion, or at least tolerate him, but she's not going to go around blowing up political alliances to get justice for him or soothe his hurt feelings. Nor is she going to play the queen of morality with Ellaria when she stooped sufficiently low to accept her aid knowing her role in murdering Doran and Trystane.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Eyes High

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion's not dumb enough to try to turn Dany against Olenna and Ellaria while Dany still requires Tyrell and Dorne support. If Dany is weakened then Tyrion is weakened, and he knows that his chances of survival are now directly linked to Dany's success; he's not going to do anything that would strip Dany of support. As for Dany, she knows that if she executes her allies for their crimes once she no longer has any use for them, despite being okay with their crimes when she needed their help, she's going to get a reputation as Aerys III very quickly. If she was sufficiently pragmatic to accept the help of scumbags who murdered their prince, executing them once she no longer needed them on principle would be the height of hypocrisy. Also, it seems likely that Ellaria stipulated as part of her deal with Varys that she and the Sand Snakes would be granted immunity for their crimes against the Martells. Otherwise, why bother?

The comparison to Jaime doesn't really work since Olenna and Ellaria's crimes were against the Martells and the Lannisters, not Dany's family members. Dany seems to like Tyrion, or at least tolerate him, but she's not going to go around blowing up political alliances to get justice for him or soothe his hurt feelings. Nor is she going to play the queen of morality with Ellaria when she stooped sufficiently low to accept her aid knowing her role in murdering Doran and Trystane.

Well then, justice for me and but not for thee then. Dany is a hypocrite if she has Jaime executed, but lets Ellaria and the Sand Snakes walk. Okay for Dany to get justice for herself, even though her dad had it coming, but not for Marcella, because she had the misfortunate of being Cerise's daughter. The very least Ellaria, Tyene, Obara and Nymeria should be banished from Westros, like Mellisandre was from Winterfell. For Olenna, there isn't much, or anything that could be done to punish her worse than she already got when Cersei wiped out her descendants. I wouldn't surprised if Jaime went through with his execution if he takes out the Sand Snakes with him. 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[GrailKing]

Jon needs more allies then he has now, I don't think the North is truly happy with the Vale's help, but they are needed; so how can Jon get more help?

LF will be one, but it will be LF pulling the strings, I don't think he'll manipulate Sansa because she is in a way; a bit of him; LF will manipulate Jon instead. I think he'll manipulate Jon because of his conversations with Sansa on his boat after KL where he tells Sansa he doesn't want friends like him; he wants friends that have a streak of honor and fairness to them like Jon, and he'll need to do this without Sansa knowing.

Sansa can and will help Jon, but she has some demons to overcome as she fights those, she NEEDS to get control of Robert Arryn her cousin and turn him against LF; she needs Lord Royce also, since he has no love or trust for LF anymore than Sansa has.

LF said what happened at Winterfell will reach the South where Dany and Tyrion are or will be and how she and Tyrion interact will be important if Danny is to go North; it will reach the River Lands where Arya the BWB and the Hound are along with Pod, Brienne and Mellisandre. Sansa could try another letter once she hears the Freys are no more and ask for help from House Tully.

Along with other southern houses learning about the North I think Sam's story is going to be real important how not sure, but he will either read something or hear something that Jon needs.

We can't discount Cersei either,when she hears what Baleish did she will send Sir Greggor to the North for both Sansa's and Baleish's heads.Those disappointed they did not get another Clegane brother battle this pass season don't worry, I think it was moved North.

As far as the marriage triangle between Jon,Danni and Sansa, it may happen with LF,Tyrion and Varys each trying to pull strings within their favor, LF sandwiched between Varys and Tyrion can't be good for him.

To be fair I don't find it distasteful for cousins to marry as their is enough of it in history and modern life, aunt to nephew not for it, but this is a fantasy series so what the writers wish will be what we get.

Edited July 10, 2016 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Well then, justice for me and but not for thee then. Dany is a hypocrite if she has Jaime executed, but lets Ellaria and the Sand Snakes walk. Okay for Dany to get justice for herself, even though her dad had it coming, but not for Marcella, because she had the misfortunate of being Cerise's daughter. The very least Ellaria, Tyene, Obara and Nymeria should be banished from Westros, like Mellisandre was from Winterfell. For Olenna, there isn't much, or anything that could be done to punish her worse than she already got when Cersei wiped out her descendants. I wouldn't surprised if Jaime went through with his execution if he takes out the Sand Snakes with him. 

Dany might not choose to get justice for herself, since she seems to accept Tyrion and Barristan's characterization of Aerys as a madman, and Tyrion appears to be willing to throw Aerys in Dany's face whenever she's tempted to get her tyrannical despot on.

Also, Tyrion is used to tolerating others' awfulness towards him and towards people he cared about. If Tywin had the woman he loved gang raped in front of him and Tyrion did nothing about it for 20ish years, he can and will swallow Olenna having framed him and Ellaria having murdered his niece. He's a Lannister, after all; tolerating awful people's bullshit as a survival tactic comes easily to him.

16 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Jon needs more allies then he has now, I don't think the North is truly happy with the Vale's help, but they are needed; so how can Jon get more help?LF will be one, but it will be LF pulling the strings, I don't think he'll manipulate Sansa because she is in a way; a bit of him

He'll manipulate Sansa the way he manipulated her earlier in the season. His tactics are already working, judging from the way Sansa looked at Littlefinger at the end. He saved her, so now he can worm his way back into her good graces by presenting himself as the only one willing to press her claim in the face of a hostile, ungrateful north and a half-brother happy to take up a position that should rightfully be hers. He doesn't even need to breathe a word to Jon. Also, if my suspicions are correct, the northern lords who prefer Jon over Sansa might do some of the work in convincing Jon that he needs to be wary of Sansa given her affiliation with Littlefinger. Heck, if Sansa continues hanging out with LF, despite having told Jon that LF is not trustworthy and that he sold her to the Boltons, that might also go some ways towards convincing Jon that Sansa is just as shady as LF is.

[Ambrosefolly]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Dany might not choose to get justice for herself, since she seems to accept Tyrion and Barristan's characterization of Aerys as a madman, and Tyrion appears to be willing to throw Aerys in Dany's face whenever she's tempted to get her tyrannical despot on.

Also, Tyrion is used to tolerating others' awfulness towards him and towards people he cared about. If Tywin had the woman he loved gang raped in front of him and Tyrion did nothing about it for 20ish years, he can and will swallow Olenna having framed him and Ellaria having murdered his niece. He's a Lannister, after all; tolerating awful people's bullshit as a survival tactic comes easily to him.

Twenty years...until he lost his shit at his trial and shot his dad with a crossbow while he was on the toilet. He might let framing Olenna go (or he might "play the game" and pit Ellaria against Olenna seeing as Oberyn died as an indirect result of Olenna's regicide), he did want to murder Joffery himself and Joffery did have it coming. Marcella was an innocent that Tyrion cared for. He brokered the deal to have her married off to Trystan in order to protect her from Stannis, completely against Cerise's wishes for her daughter (and maybe one of her better instincts). 

[GrailKing]

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Dany might not choose to get justice for herself, since she seems to accept Tyrion and Barristan's characterization of Aerys as a madman, and Tyrion appears to be willing to throw Aerys in Dany's face whenever she's tempted to get her tyrannical despot on.

Also, Tyrion is used to tolerating others' awfulness towards him and towards people he cared about. If Tywin had the woman he loved gang raped in front of him and Tyrion did nothing about it for 20ish years, he can and will swallow Olenna having framed him and Ellaria having murdered his niece. He's a Lannister, after all; tolerating awful people's bullshit as a survival tactic comes easily to him.

He'll manipulate Sansa the way he manipulated her earlier in the season. His tactics are already working, judging from the way Sansa looked at Littlefinger at the end. He saved her, so now he can worm his way back into her good graces by presenting himself as the only one willing to press her claim in the face of a hostile, ungrateful north and a half-brother happy to take up a position that should rightfully be hers. He doesn't even need to breathe a word to Jon. Also, if my suspicions are correct, the northern lords who prefer Jon over Sansa might do some of the work in convincing Jon that he needs to be wary of Sansa given her affiliation with Littlefinger. Heck, if Sansa continues hanging out with LF, despite having told Jon that LF is not trustworthy and that he sold her to the Boltons, that might also go some ways towards convincing Jon that Sansa is just as shady as LF is.

I didn't read it that way, in the Godwood or at the end of the scene in the hall of Winterfell, her look there was as their eyes met and her smile left was an oh shit moment, she knows he's pissed and not an acknowledgement of her in agreement, and the Godswood where she said a pretty dream and her leaving as he did his head move was her knowing what he plans to do and her leaving him with the knowledge she knows he has switched his loyalties many times and he will do it again.

What was shown on screen and what's being said don't jive and if many are convinced Sansa will be his down fall this is the point where it starts to change, that last look was not ok LF your right, lets FU by brother, Sansa knows or hopes Bran is still alive and she isn't going to screw him over either.

It can go either way, I don't see it as you do, I think it will be a big setup for LF fall.

Edited July 10, 2016 by GrailKing

[Hecate7]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:25 PM, Eyes High said:

I doubt Sansa would enter into a marriage of convenience again, after the Ramsay debacle. Even if she pursues power, I imagine she'll try to pursue it outside of marriage alliances, no matter how many doors that closes for her.

 

Sansa is still a female in a patriarchal world. She'll marry again because that's what women have to do in her culture. What she will not do, is marry someone she hasn't had a chance to do some research on, or expect love to come from marriage. I still think she's much likelier to marry Jon Snow than say, Samwell Tarley's brother. She's more likely to marry Theon Greyjoy than she is to marry Samwell Tarley's brother. But I think the likeliest scenario for Sansa is that she renews her marriage to Tyrion, because he is the only man she's seen have the power over her to harm her, who chose not to do so, and he's in the company of Cersei's number one enemy and three very large dragons, which might sound to Sansa like a wonderful way out of marrying Baelish.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Twenty years...until he lost his shit at his trial and shot his dad with a crossbow while he was on the toilet. He might let framing Olenna go (or he might "play the game" and pit Ellaria against Olenna seeing as Oberyn died as an indirect result of Olenna's regicide), he did want to murder Joffery himself and Joffery did have it coming. Marcella was an innocent that Tyrion cared for. He brokered the deal to have her married off to Trystan in order to protect her from Stannis, completely against Cerise's wishes for her daughter (and maybe one of her better instincts). 

I guess. Brokering Myrcella's marriage also helped him sniff out Cersei's mole. I suppose if Ellaria and Olenna start trying to undermine him the way Cersei did, he might retaliate in kind, but as it is I think he'll keep his trap shut.

I don't doubt that Tyrion loved Myrcella, only that that love would cause him to do something that would imperil his own survival.

58 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Sansa is still a female in a patriarchal world. She'll marry again because that's what women have to do in her culture. What she will not do, is marry someone she hasn't had a chance to do some research on, or expect love to come from marriage. I still think she's much likelier to marry Jon Snow than say, Samwell Tarley's brother. She's more likely to marry Theon Greyjoy than she is to marry Samwell Tarley's brother. But I think the likeliest scenario for Sansa is that she renews her marriage to Tyrion, because he is the only man she's seen have the power over her to harm her, who chose not to do so, and he's in the company of Cersei's number one enemy and three very large dragons, which might sound to Sansa like a wonderful way out of marrying Baelish.

Women mostly only "have to" marry in this world because some patriarch twists their arm and makes them. Who's going to twist Sansa's arm? Ned's long dead. Jon even as KITN would never require Sansa to remarry given what he knows of her experience with Ramsay, and he would likely act to protect her against someone else who tried to get her to remarry against her wishes. The other reason women would marry would be to access power, the way Margaery chose to marry a succession of kings. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell, though (apparently, according to the HBO online guide). She is already powerful.

It seems to me that Sansa can marry or not as she chooses. I don't think it's a situation of "I have to be married to someone" as you suggest, but rather "After two loveless political marriages that were horrifying for different reasons, do I even want to be married at all to anyone?" After her experiences, I don't see how the answer at least for political marriages would be anything but "No."

Edited July 10, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hecate7]

Just now, Eyes High said:

asdfasd

Women mostly only "have to" marry in this world because some patriarch twists their arm and makes them. Who's going to twist Sansa's arm? Ned's long dead. Jon even as KITN would never require Sansa to remarry given what he knows of her experience with Ramsay, and he would likely act to protect her against someone else who tried to get her to remarry against her wishes. The other reason women would marry would be to access power, the way Margaery chose to marry a succession of kings. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell, though (apparently, according to the HBO online guide). She is already powerful.

It seems to me that Sansa can marry or not as she chooses. I don't think it's a situation of "I have to be married to someone" as you suggest, but rather "After two loveless political marriages that were horrifying for different reasons, do I even want to be married at all to anyone?" After her experiences, I don't see how the answer at least for political marriages would be anything but "No."

What's she gonna do, rent an apartment in the city and start a sitcom? Become a seamstress? Join the Silent Sisterhood? Become a Septa? No. She's a medieval Lady, and if she chooses spinsterhood she must also deal with the wife of whichever brother she is a parasite of--in this case, Jon Snow. She is too young and beautiful not to be useful as a marriage pawn, and if Jon doesn't think of it, his wife will. She's going to need to give Baelish a firm yes or no eventually...a no will carry fatal consequences if she's not careful. Baelish has already given her a heads-up--next will be petitioning her brother for permission to marry her. He owes Baelish and a no could be considered an outright declaration of war on the Vale.

I think her experiences make her less likely to believe in a love marriage. She tried marrying for love, and got Joffrey. She married for Winterfell and got Ramsey. But Tyrion was OK and Jon Snow would be ok--I don't think she'd reject a political marriage with either of them. I think she'd reject a political marriage with Robyn Arryn unless she could kill him easily early on. Ditto Baelish. Marriage to either of them sets her firmly down a Black Widow path, because they are both dangerous killers and it's either them or her.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

What's she gonna do, rent an apartment in the city and start a sitcom? Become a seamstress? Join the Silent Sisterhood? Become a Septa? No. She's a medieval Lady, and if she chooses spinsterhood she must also deal with the wife of whichever brother she is a parasite of--in this case, Jon Snow.

None of the above. She's not just a medieval lady, she's the Lady of Winterfell. She's no one's "parasite."

Quote

She is too young and beautiful not to be useful as a marriage pawn

Again, that suggests that she has little or no say in whom she'll marry. That's true of many young Westeros noble ladies, but it's no longer true of her.

Quote

Baelish has already given her a heads-up--next will be petitioning her brother for permission to marry her. He owes Baelish and a no could be considered an outright declaration of war on the Vale.

How? Jon is not Sansa's father and can no more entertain marriage proposals for her hand than he can entertain them for Lyanna Mormont; KITN or not, he's nothing more than her bastard brother. Also, Jon made Littlefinger no promises and offered him nothing. In fact, he didn't even know LF was coming. There is no bargain or deal in place for Littlefinger to enforce with Jon. Finally, Jon would never hand Sansa over to Baelish, much less when he knows that Sansa was raped and abused by her last husband courtesy of LF selling her to him and when he has been warned by Sansa that LF is not to be trusted.

Quote

I think her experiences make her less likely to believe in a love marriage. She tried marrying for love, and got Joffrey. She married for Winterfell and got Ramsey. But Tyrion was OK and Jon Snow would be ok--I don't think she'd reject a political marriage with either of them.

It's possible that Sansa decides that love is not necessary for marriage, but it's more likely--to me, at least--that Sansa will double down what happened during her last two shitty, loveless political marriages after and refuse to marry for political purposes at all.

Even assuming Sansa would be fine with going back to her marriage to Tyrion--which seems unlikely, given how little it thrilled her the first time around--would Tyrion want the same thing? He was looking very, very warmly at Dany in 6x10, and although I don't think Dany is any more likely to love him, desire him, or want to marry him than Sansa, she is able to give him the recognition and esteem he so desperately craves. Also, in-universe at least, Sansa is chopped liver next to Dany, like pretty much every woman ("Who comes after you?" as Daario asks Dany). I doubt Tyrion will have any interest in dealing with Sansa's Lannister angst after spending an extended period of time basking in the glow of a beautiful, supremely powerful queen's respect, confidence and trust, platonic or not. The marriage with Sansa made him feel like shit: awkward, useless, helpless, repulsive, untrustworthy, unlovable, tainted by association with the Lannisters, the works. Dany makes him feel awesome: dignified, trustworthy, intelligent, competent, and useful. He'll want as much as he can get of Dany, and, if it comes to it, as little as he can get of Sansa.

Even if he doesn't love Dany, though, that doesn't mean that he would wish to revisit his marriage to Sansa. The marriage made him feel like garbage and contributed to the painful events associated with his departure with KL. He hasn't said one word about her since Season 4 and he had no interest in what happened to her after her escape from KL. I'm guessing that he would view his marriage to Sansa as part and parcel of a painful time in his life that is thankfully over. He'll look to the future, I think.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Eyes High

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I guess. Brokering Myrcella's marriage also helped him sniff out Cersei's mole. I suppose if Ellaria and Olenna start trying to undermine him the way Cersei did, he might retaliate in kind, but as it is I think he'll keep his trap shut.

I don't doubt that Tyrion loved Myrcella, only that that love would cause him to do something that would imperil his own survival.

I just hope the show doesn't gloss over that Dany would be pardoning people that are essentially immoral monsters, no better than the people that stole her family's throne,  if she does pardon them for the sake of pragmatism, or that Tyrion should feel like shit even if he swallows the injustice if that turns out to be the case. Throughout the show, one of the messages seems to be pardoning evil for the sake of pragmatism leaves a stain on the person, from Robert allowing Tywin and the Mountain to walk for the murder of a mother and her young children to Lord Commander Mormont turning a blind eye Kraster raping his daughters and sacrificing his sons, they leave a stain. Doesn't make it better if it is women.

[Hecate7]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 

Quote

None of the above. She's not just a medieval lady, she's the Lady of Winterfell. She's no one's "parasite."

I'd have assumed the same, were it not that ownership of the castle is suddenly in doubt. If she owns the castle, I'd agree, but Ladies rarely actually own anything if they have any male relatives alive.

Quote

Even assuming Sansa would be fine with going back to her marriage to Tyrion--which seems unlikely, given how little it thrilled her the first time around--would Tyrion want the same thing?

It depends on what his other marriage prospects are, and how much good they could do the world by reuniting. It's really not about having a big giant crush on each other, or fulfilling their emotional needs through marriage. It may not even be about family and faithfulness. It might be about being able to refuse Baelish, on Sansa's end, and being able to refuse someone else, on Tyrion's end. He may invoke his marriage to Sansa as a way to decline Danaerys marrying him to Olenna or Ellaria or some other bizarre prospect (as is her right as his queen), without offending. Sansa might back him up on it because the best way to refuse Baelish would be to already have a husband.

 

Quote

Jon is not Sansa's father and can no more entertain marriage proposals for her hand than he can entertain them for Lyanna Mormont; KITN or not, he's nothing more than her bastard brother.

This actually reminds me that Baelish needs no one's permission to marry Sansa: not even Sansa's. Baelish is her uncle by marriage and entitled to arrange her marriage again, just as he did once before. Even as Lady of Winterfell, Sansa is subject to the decisions of her father, or brother, or uncle, regarding her marriage. Even the Queen Regent herself didn't get to choose her own husband legally. Cersei only got out of marriage to Loras by killing her fiance.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Hecate7