S04.E12: A Roy Rogers in Franconia

[AliShibaz]

Was anyone else taken aback by Paige's weird eyebrows in the scene where she and Matthew are alone and talking with each other? I don't know why. But her eyebrows really shook me up. One eyebrow seemed to point at a 45 degree angle. (I believe it was her left eyebrow). It just looked so extremely bizarre that I thought it had to be some kind of signal (probably to the audience) that something was very wrong with this girl. I'm probably mistaken about this. But I'd really like to know if anyone else had a similar reaction.

I honestly just wish that Paige would somehow disappear from this show.

Upthread, someone posted a link to an opinion posted by a reviewer about a recent episode and they were quite explicit when discussing Paige's acting ability. (actually, it would be more accurate to say they were discussing Holly Taylor's ability). They used the word "range" more than once and I'm pretty sure they implied that she either had no range or a very limited range when it came to her acting. I've been saying that for quite a while now. Until last night, I've only ever seen her display two or three different "looks" on her face and I've always assumed that meant that she just did not have much of any kind of range when it came to her acting ability.

I'm sorry to say this because I know that it will upset a great many people. But I honestly think she really ruins the quality of this show. So sad. So very sad.

Edited June 2, 2016 by AliShibaz

[blixie]

Quote

It seemed that he went to take care or ensure that the body of the man E killed was disposed of.  Is that right?

No he went to meet with William to give him the access codes. And that's when William told him, yeah, I'm not feeling it.

[RedHawk]

54 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I just finished rewatching the first two seasons, and seeing him on last night's episode was almost a shock. He's even got a little tween mustache. 

I wonder if at some point the writers will be able to use a story line to make Philip and Elizabeth realize that what they're working for is somewhat of a lie. They believe Mother Russia is this great place that wants equality for everyone, but they've been in the US for 20 years and don't see that Russia is really a fucked up mess. They steal our technology and then don't know how to use it, the citizens suffer while the leaders take everything.  They're fighting to keep people like Putin in power. 

From William's reaction to Gabriel's news that he could "go home" after this one last mission, I got the feeling William has been paying closer attention to the news from home than Philip and Elizabeth have. I guess they kind of close their eyes to the reports of Russia's shortages and breadlines and economic difficulties, or they think it's propaganda. I think William knows that it's all true because he seemed very UNexcited by the thought of going back there. (Sure didn't seem interested in getting a wife either! I giggled and thought, what if they try to set him up with Martha?)

Or maybe his exposure to toxins, like Botox, has also cost him his ability to change facial expressions.

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

29 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

OMG this has been driving me crazy forever. This is wallpaper in a restroom of a disco, or Austin Powers'  sex den.  I do not recall anyone having wall paper like this in a bedroom esp. a teenage girl. 

I did notice they changed the mail boxes in front of the Jennings' house. It has a number on it instead of A-B-C. But I still don't get the layout of that structure. They have to live in some maintenance free home subdivision. Their home has a common wall with another.  

I thought that was what he was going to do, but he went to meet William.  If he had gone to get rid of the body, he might have been seen by someone. I'm sure they're hoping the police chalk it up to a bad guy getting killed by another bad guy. 

The layout of their house has driven me crazy! I think it's actually changed since the early seasons, at least the exterior shots. They did seem to live in a semi-detached house, and now they don't, and does the garage keep changing location? I also wish just once Paige or Henry would say one word about how freaky it is that Stan lives in a house that's an exact duplicate of theirs. Their house, different decor and furniture (or lack of!), which works great as another parallel on the show.

(I guess in a subdivision people are more used to houses that are the same floorplans, especially when relatively new. I grew up in a place where it was rare and I never saw that, however, in my neighborhood there was a house built by the same builder as ours so it was a duplicate. Both had been built about 20 years earlier so had undergone some renovations. I went into it only twice, when I was an older teenager, and I still recall how weird it was to see "my" home with weird alterations and decor.) 

[hellmouse]

7 hours ago, scartact said:

This episode was obviously designed to set the pieces up for the finale, so there are aspects of it that felt rushed. Particularly, Paige's very fast recovery from watching her mother kill someone, though I appreciate that the show didn't tackle it from the angle of, "Paige freaks out again!" As much as I'm very often a Jennings family apologist, I would have been very ticked off at another one of those episodes. I know people are annoyed by her, but I just very rarely feel annoyed by characters on this show (except the Groovyhairs; it's often an exception when they don't annoy me).

I quite liked Paige calling out Elizabeth (and Philip) for never fully answering her questions, though I also felt like the obvious reason for that is she hasn't shown the best responses to what they had answered for her in the past. But her asking Elizabeth to explain why she would go into this work knowing the dangers was a nice moment of Elizabeth confronting more of the truth of why she joined the KGB in the first place. It's interesting too to give Elizabeth that space for reflection, because this season she's been at her most reflective and emotional. I also loved when she tells Philip Paige just naturally reported information from Matthew to her, and it just made me think that maybe she does have regrets about collapsing that divide between their spy life and their family life with Paige. That just reminds me too of where Paige was at earlier this season.

When Gabriel told William his work matters echoed to me when Philip tells Elizabeth in an earlier episode that everything matters to him. Anyway, often Gabriel's relationship with his agents are paralleled with Philip and Elizabeth to Paige, so it was interesting to see the contrast of P&E stumbling over details with Paige, while Gabriel is incredibly deft at convincing William to finish just this one final mission and then he can go home.

That scene where Oleg calls his mother was great and very well-acted. I loved it and it made me think back to the assertion that the show is the most motherhood-obsessed prestige drama, partly because his conversation with her seems to be what ultimately triggers him to go to Stan. Of course, it was great to see the FBI effectively suss out who the mole is, even if that's going to be potentially very awful news for everyone involved.

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, I suppose this indicates the titular persona non grata of the episode is very probably William?

Lastly, I've been really fascinated with the episode titles this season (well, partly because this is the first season of the show I'm watching in real time) and I've been trying to make sense of this episode title's significance. Most obviously, it's an indirect referral to the Mail Robot's treason by way of random lady who, uh, services the Mail Robot. Anyone have any additional thoughts, or is it fairly self-explanatory?

This is the first season I've watched in real time too. I don't know what I'm going to do with myself for the 10 months until Season 5! It's actually been interesting to have the time between episodes to sort of breathe and consider the information. Watching them back to back had me so paranoid and anxious that I was convinced every character was lying in every single moment. Which they could have been, lol. 

I agree with your thoughts about Elizabeth and Paige's conversation. I was glad that Paige finally expressed her frustration that her parents never really answer her questions directly. She's been frustrated and confused by that for a while, but has never said it to them so directly. It pushed Elizabeth into the less familiar ground of truly thinking about herself. Like Philip did, she starts with saying the name of the town where she grew up and describing it a little. And after she gets to the end of her (amazingly acted) explanation, she nods a little, like she is affirming to herself that yes, this is true. It's like how Philip nodded to himself after saying his father was "tired". Elizabeth may never have said this aloud to anyone before. She wouldn't have needed to say it to fellow KGB people, and she probably wouldn't have been that personal with agents she recruited. It was a powerful moment for Elizabeth, and I think Paige understood that, and valued it. I don't think they would have sat comfortably watching TV later if they hadn't had that moment.

I also agree about the focus on motherhood in the show, and it's part of what I love what about the show. Your comment made me think about the many ways this episode alone focused on it. Oleg calls his mother. Gabriel calls Martha's mother. Paige gets to know her mother better. Gabriel tells William he will go home, back to the motherland, Mother Russia. I kind of want to rewatch all the episodes now, to look for more of the motherhood theme.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by hellmouse

[SunnyBeBe]

24 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

From William's reaction to Gabriel's news that he could "go home" after this one last mission, I got the feeling William has been paying closer attention to the news from home than Philip and Elizabeth have. I guess they kind of close their eyes to the reports of Russia's shortages and breadlines and economic difficulties, or they think it's propaganda. I think William knows that it's all true because he seemed very UNexcited by the thought of going back there. (Sure didn't seem interested in getting a wife either! I giggled and thought, what if they try to set him up with Martha?)

Or maybe his exposure to toxins, like Botox, has also cost him his ability to change facial expressions.

That's an idea. Sending William home to introduce to Martha! I like it! I'm worried about William though. 

Back when Tatiana was engaged in pillow talk with Oleg, I suspected that she would betray him, but as it turns out, it's the other way around. I suppose that if she is honest, she'll have to report that Oleg knew, due to her breach.  So, that's her fault and she will suffer.  I'm not sure what the punishment will be.

Does anyone know why Oleg's mom was in that apt building? I thought his family were from better means.

[Dev F]

6 hours ago, scartact said:

Lastly, I've been really fascinated with the episode titles this season (well, partly because this is the first season of the show I'm watching in real time) and I've been trying to make sense of this episode title's significance. Most obviously, it's an indirect referral to the Mail Robot's treason by way of random lady who, uh, services the Mail Robot. Anyone have any additional thoughts, or is it fairly self-explanatory?

I think it's about the contrast between the mundane nature of the location (a fast food restaurant in the suburbs) and the unrecognized larger implications of the encounter (he's not just some mob hood, he's a Russian spy!). Which outlines one of the major themes of the episode: how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The cleaning lady thinks she's snooping for the mob, but she's really betraying her country to the Soviet Union. Paige thinks she knows what it means that her parents are spies, but she's broken when she realizes what they really do. And Oleg realizes that while his country's scientists think they're equipped to handle Tatiana's stolen bioweapons, they know just enough to get everybody killed.

On another topic, I'm definitely not on board with the Paige hatred here. In fact, I'm pretty baffled by the argument that it's implausible or out of character for Paige to be so thrown by her mother's actions. My upbringing was similar to Paige's -- I grew up sheltered in the suburbs in the 1980s -- and I would absolutely have been just as freaked out if I saw my mom stab someone to death in front me. Especially if she was so blase about it afterward. The fact that we've seen Philip and Elizabeth kill people so often it's become routine doesn't mean that Paige is going to find it a straightforward experience.

[teddysmom]

Quote

The layout of their house has driven me crazy! I think it's actually changed since the early seasons, at least the exterior shots. They did seem to live in a semi-detached house, and now they don't, and does the garage keep changing location?

They used the same exterior shot of the house last night as in the earlier seasons. I even paused it to look at it, after I saw the mailbox change to an actual address.   I think it's one of those things that they used in the first season for convenience and maybe cost restraints and didn't give it a lot of thought re how viewers would notice these details. And now they probably just use the footage they have of that home for transition shots.  

[hellmouse]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

That's an idea. Sending William home to introduce to Martha! I like it! I'm worried about William though. 

Back when Tatiana was engaged in pillow talk with Oleg, I suspected that she would betray him, but as it turns out, it's the other way around. I suppose that if she is honest, she'll have to report that Oleg knew, due to her breach.  So, that's her fault and she will suffer.  I'm not sure what the punishment will be.

Does anyone know why Oleg's mom was in that apt building? I thought his family were from better means.

I think that apartment was meant to show that they are from better means. It was large, spacious, well appointed, with luxurious items like the fresh flowers and crystal. It was just one room in what is certainly a larger apartment, whereas in a communal apartment, that room would have housed a family. They live in the city, so it would make sense they are in an apartment. It's probably in a nice section of Moscow.

[RedHawk]

17 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

Does anyone know why Oleg's mom was in that apt building? I thought his family were from better means.

I think that apartment was "better means". Her telephone sure looked ancient though, didn't it? I mean, even compared to the circa 1980 one Oleg was using.

Edited to add: And what Hellmouse said above. There were lots of luxury touches.

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[gwhh]

10 hours ago, La Tortuga said:

I was rolling my eyes at Paige for not being more grateful--or even conscious--that her mom had just saved her from being raped. But then I remembered that when the two muggers approached them asking for cigarettes, Paige was naïve enough to tell them where to find the nearest grocery store. One of them even chuckled at her for not realizing what was going on. This kid has no practical idea what the world is like outside her suburb, because that's the life her parents carved out for her. She also has no idea that Elizabeth has been raped before and has nightmares of the same happening to Paige. So, eyerolls notwithstanding, I can forgive Paige for being clueless about that part.

As the mother of a teenager myself, I can even forgive Elizabeth for having no idea how to handle Paige, as she never thought there'd be a need for these kinds of conversations with her children. Even perfectly normal parents who plan ahead often find themselves inadequately prepared for the reality of raising teens.

 

I wonder if Elizabeth will tell Paige about her rape by a KGB agent during training??  I doubt she would.  It would make the KGB & the soviet union look real bad.  Than she would have to tell how he rose up in rank and become a traitor and was going to be sent back to the soviet union to be executed as a traitor and than they may have to one day really tell her about what happened to him and how her dad wanted to defect to the USA! 

 

This was NOT know tot he general public at the time and would not be know for many years until after the cold war ended.  The Soviet Union used binary chemical agents and (maybe) biological weapons in Afghanistan.  The chemicals would be put into village wells and it would wipe out the whole village!   How many times it was used or what was used was never talked about.  A defector told this story when he left the soviet union.  I think I first read this article in reader digest years ago!

Edited June 2, 2016 by gwhh

[teddysmom]

Quote

I guess in a subdivision people are more used to houses that are the same floorplans, especially when relatively new. I grew up in a place where it was rare and I never saw that, however, in my neighborhood there was a house built by the same builder as ours so it was a duplicate. Both had been built about 20 years earlier so had undergone some renovations. I went into it only twice, when I was an older teenager, and I still recall how weird it was to see "my" home with weird alterations and decor.) 

I work in residential real estate development and builders usually have 4-5 models and layouts that people can choose from in each subdivision.  They can switch up exterior features like siding or brick, colors, but if you choose a particular model, your house is going to have the same layout as a bunch of others. 

[crashdown]

20 hours ago, madam magpie said:

This is new territory for them, and they're just winging it. I like that what's tripping up these incredibly brave, accomplished, in-control people is their teenage daughter. It's so incongruous, yet totally believable. Plus, to be honest with Paige, they have to face what they really do. "How many people have you killed" was a great exchange, but it was also a gotcha moment for Elizabeth.

And the answer to that question was the most terrifying answer of all for Paige, much worse than if Elizabeth had just said "149 and counting."  It told her that her portrait of Elizabeth as a calm, businesslike killing machine might actually be on the mark: each individual death clearly doesn't weigh on Elizabeth the way that Paige assumes it should.  I'm not impatient with Paige at all for being shocked by this, and I don't chalk it up to her being a spoiled American teenager.  It's normal to believe that murder is a moral transgression that should cause a murderer who isn't a psychopath great mental and emotional anguish, and finding out that her mother is so far outside those bounds of a "normal" moral sense would be enough to turn anyone's world upside down.  

 

18 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Paige asking, "Do you trust me or don't you trust me?", followed by her demanding to know who was calling and the details of where P was going and what he was doing. Then ... worst of all ... her parents actually tell her.

Philip and Elizabeth are in a very delicate position with Paige, and they know it.  She's volatile, and if they don't demonstrate that they trust her, she could very well end up doing something that would jeopardize all of them.  They've also told her that they  might not tell her everything, but that they wouldn't lie to her--and since they told her that, they haven't.  I think their reaction to Paige's clumsy attempts to get information out of Matthew is really very interesting. I'm not sure if they're simply worried that she'll screw up and disclose something that could cause Stan to put the pieces together.  I think even deeper is the fact that the idea of their daughter essentially trading sex for information the way they do is horrifying to both of them.  Philip never wanted Paige to be a spy, and now that the reality of what Paige's life would be like has really sunk in, Elizabeth doesn't want that for her either.  

I get why people are annoyed by Paige, but that's not how I feel--I think the character has been quite well used.  I also just found Paige's sarcastic last line of "Great" utterly hilarious.  This show is so often angsty that those unexpected moments of humor are just gold to me.

Edited June 3, 2016 by crashdown

[gwhh]

Do you think the Jennings street of address.  Of the number "22" has any heading meaning?? 

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, gwhh said:

Do you think the Jennings street of address.  Of the number "22" has any heading meaning?? 

I wondered the same thing! I haven't done any research yet, but I bet that from the many devoted fans, someone has a theory.

[RedHawk]

I've been thinking about how Elizabeth tossed Paige into the pool to teach her to swim. I'm wanting her to act a bit more like that Elizabeth now. Either that or she and Philip need to have a convo with Gabriel and tell him Paige is just hopelessly soft, untrainable, too American, and thus "un-turnable", and that Henry is the one to focus on. 

Sorry, I'm also disappointed in so much of Paige's storyline, not because of the story itself, but more because the actress just isn't carrying it off well, IMO. There are so many other good things to enjoy here that it disappoints me when we spend what seems like ages on Paige.

[hellmouse]

12 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

They used the same exterior shot of the house last night as in the earlier seasons. I even paused it to look at it, after I saw the mailbox change to an actual address.   I think it's one of those things that they used in the first season for convenience and maybe cost restraints and didn't give it a lot of thought re how viewers would notice these details. And now they probably just use the footage they have of that home for transition shots.  

Yes, I noticed the mailbox too. In the pilot there were three mailboxes - A, B, C. Now it says 22. 

In this episode they CGI'd out the two car garage on the right side of the building and made it into windows. But in previous episodes they haven't done so.

It's clearly a multi-family building, probably with three condominium units in it. However, I think we are meant to believe that it is a single family home because it would just raise too many questions if there were literal next door neighbors. 

It's one of those things that I personally have decided to just accept and go with. IMO, it has no bearing on the actual story the show is telling. 

As for the floorplans being identical, I think that is intentional, because it's another way to compare and contrast FBI-USA-Beeman vs KGB-USSR-Jennings. Exactly the same yet different. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by hellmouse

[maraleia]

Dammit The Americans you sent me down a nostalgic General Hospital clip spiral on YouTube- watching old Scorpio family scenes.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It seems like they want to help her set themselves up.  When it comes to her, they have lost their minds. It's unfortunate. Perhaps, the plot will turn her around and we will see her REALLY turn into the spy that has their backs, but it wouldn't make sense, from what we have seen from her.

I hesitate to be critical of the writing on this show, because it's been so incredible, but I wonder if this Paige storyline seemed like a good idea, when they went there and then they got trapped.  It's just something that doesn't seem to work for me.  I've noticed that with some shows, there is a temptation to go somewhere with a storyline, but the real implications are not considered.  

Yeah, I've enjoyed aspects of this show, which is why I've stayed as long as I have with it, but I really differ with the prevailing sentiment on this board that the writing has been consistently good. I think the dialogue has been very uneven, the characters given major screen time, beyond  E & P,  Martha, and Gabriel, poorly drawn, and the plotting way too contrived at times. I think the premise of the show is one of the all time greats, the two central protagonists are wonderfuly written, and even better acted, and the Martha story arc was just tremedous, including the actor playing Martha being even better than the actors playing E & P. That's been enough for me to watch, although I fear the end of the Martha story arc is going to be even more of a storytelling problem than, say, the death of Tywin Lannister was to GoT, which is a pretty big problem indeed.

The Paige story arc has been problematic from the beginning. The idea of raising a child as a typical, affluent, American teenager until well into adolescence, and then quickly submerging her into a ideological POV which is alien to her experience, is pretty ridiculous. Yes, two parents could inculcate a child into that life of espionage, but they better not start, all of a sudden, when the kid is 14. The way this has been storyboarded really guarantees a lot of "ugh" moments and dialogue.

[izabella]

I think P&E did their assimilation job a little too well as far as the kids go.  They really did raise them as Americans in an American family with American family dynamics.  I say this because, as an Eastern European immigrant child who was Paige's age in 1984, no way, no how did my parents allow me to "talk back" nor question them.  They never led me to believe I could have opinions that they were supposed to consider, nor that they had to explain anything to me.  I was their child and they were in charge and, as a child, I was supposed to do what they said and shut up about it because I was the child, their child.  It was the opposite of how my American friends were raised. 

P&E would not have raised them the same way if they were a Russian immigrant family in America who weren't spies, but their need to assimilate and blend in ended up sabotaging them.

[scartact]

41 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I also agree about the focus on motherhood in the show, and it's part of what I love what about the show. Your comment made me think about the many ways this episode alone focused on it. Oleg calls his mother. Gabriel calls Martha's mother. Paige gets to know her mother better. Gabriel tells William he will go home, back to the motherland, Mother Russia. I kind of want to rewatch all the episodes now, to look for more of the motherhood theme.  

I do really love having the opportunity to sit down and digest everything episode-by-episode. I literally watched the show nonstop for a good two weeks, but I do want to at some point to a thorough and slow rewatch of the show, probably especially before the final season. If you ever do a show rewatch, let me know! I would love to join you and analyze how the show approaches especially these themes of motherhood.

I also drew a connection to Elizabeth talking about growing up in Smolensk with when Philip talked about Tobolsk in "The Day After," and I thought it was an interesting variation between Phil and Liz. We are shown again Philip's reluctance to talk about the past and kind of speaks in pieces about it, but Elizabeth speaks directly to her admiration for her city's ability to rebuild itself. I did appreciate that sense of longing for home that she has, which absolutely comes back to reminding us of Elizabeth's experiences as technically an immigrant. I also loved to that after having that moment, they're both watching TV and it's the most comfortable we've seen them in doing something that has nothing to do with spy life. I just think overall I'm always going to be more of a fan of the Jennings family stuff than other people.

 

39 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I think it's about the contrast between the mundane nature of the location (a fast food restaurant in the suburbs) and the unrecognized larger implications of the encounter (he's not just some mob hood, he's a Russian spy!). Which outlines one of the major themes of the episode: how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The cleaning lady thinks she's snooping for the mob, but she's really betraying her country to the Soviet Union. Paige thinks she knows what it means that her parents are spies, but she's broken when she realizes what they really do. And Oleg realizes that while his country's scientists think they're equipped to handle Tatiana's stolen bioweapons, they know just enough to get everybody killed.

On another topic, I'm definitely not on board with the Paige hatred here. In fact, I'm pretty baffled by the argument that it's implausible or out of character for Paige to be so thrown by her mother's actions. My upbringing was similar to Paige's -- I grew up sheltered in the suburbs in the 1980s -- and I would absolutely have been just as freaked out if I saw my mom stab someone to death in front me. Especially if she was so blase about it afterward. The fact that we've seen Philip and Elizabeth kill people so often it's become routine doesn't mean that Paige is going to find it a straightforward experience.

Great catch! I was actually also thinking about how this connects back to Betty, and how she was also someone who received knowledge that ultimately proved fatal, and really who learns about who the Jennings (and other KGB agents) really are, they're also put in a very risky and dangerous position, whether it's immediate or will come back later to get them.

As for the Paige hate, while I understand where it's coming from, I honestly have no issues with where her storyline is going and I disagree with a lot of the resistance some folks are showing to it. This storyline is also about both Paige and her parents trying to figure out the boundaries of   this secret and how much Paige can both handle and know. It isn't as clearcut as people want it to be, and I really don't think the writers have written themselves into a corner with this storyline.

[SunnyBeBe]

So, how did the FBI locate William?  Apparently, they had a list of all the scientists who have access to bio intel in the US. That's a lot of people, I would imagine.  And they happen to have access to all the death certificates from over 40 years ago at their finger tips.  Is this right? They found William's pretty quick.  And as it turns out William had been under surveillance. Was that just a coincidence?  Was DON also under surveillance?

[jrlr]

1 hour ago, gwhh said:

Do you think the Jennings street of address.  Of the number "22" has any heading meaning?? 

22 Baker Street is Sherlock Holmes' London address. 

[RedHawk]

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, how did the FBI locate William?  Apparently, they had a list of all the scientists who have access to bio intel in the US. That's a lot of people, I would imagine.  And they happen to have access to all the death certificates from over 40 years ago at their finger tips.  Is this right? They found William's pretty quick.  And as it turns out William had been under surveillance. Was that just a coincidence?  Was DON also under surveillance?

That part about finding the birth (and death) certificates seemed quickly glossed-over to me, and I thought "I'll pay closer attention on re-watch." Not sure that's going to make it any more clear.
 

[RedHawk]

5 minutes ago, jrlr said:

22 Baker Street is Sherlock Holmes' London address. 

Sorry, that's incorrect. His address is 221B Baker Street.

My mom is a big mystery book reader...

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Aderholt should be promoted to take charge of the FBI...he's the man. And after remembering how terrible that scene was when Elizabeth killed that very brave woman..to see her son be so cavalier about her death was shocking.

I didn't think he was cavalier, he was just realistic. His 90+ mother with heart disease had a heart attack in the place she liked to be. Why would he have ordered an autopsy? Though there was also a little bit of it being jarring that where we see Betty as a warrior and a woman who lived through a war and had an active love life, of course he sees her as his mom who was elderly and wanted to feel useful. Right in keeping with the theme of the show!

 

10 hours ago, hellmouse said:

ut over the past seven months or so, Paige has been reporting back on Pastor Tim and Alice. So maybe what she means is that she thinks she should report back on anyone who seems like a threat to their family.

I think that part made sense and P&E would have agreed, but she seemed to be specifically asking if she should start hanging out with Matthew to report on him. That's what she was saying was the same as the Tims, that her parents told her she had to hang out with them. Like she forgot why that was a thing.

10 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Poor William, his shitty lonely life will be capped off with a betrayal by that yuppie Oleg. 

Seriously, I think Oleg's got a little bit of his own Paige syndrome here. His experience of life is very different than every other Russian on the show (just as Gabriel's is different from P&E's for instance). He's got some idea of the danger of talking to Stan but I'll bet he still feels some protection as the son of the Minister of Railways.

9 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

That felt like, not just a generation gap - but a cultural gap. Paige, thoroughly Americanized, expected a response about personal feelings. Elizabeth, for just a moment, gave her a dumbfounded look that said, "I just answered your question". I like these awkward scenes where Liz is trying to connect with Paige, but can't quite get past their vast differences in culture-shaping. Feels very authentic to me.  

Yes, it was a nice bookend to Philip flat-out saying to Paige "We didn't think like that" about whether he liked where he grew up. 

7 hours ago, jjj said:

Who were those random people the camera focused upon:  in the park meeting with William, the African-American man who flicked a cigarette and touched his face as he walked toward the camera;

I had a moment of thinking "Is that Philip in disguise?"

5 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I don't think Oleg knew it was an Illegal he was turning them onto.  He knew they had a source, or deduced it, but there is no reason for him to think it was an Illegal as opposed to an actual American who had been turned in some fashion. 

Yeah, but that doesn't really matter. Oleg didn't know because he was in the Residentura and was just tipping Stan off. I really wonder if he'll find out that he outed one of the Illegals, a person who's sacrificed his whole life for his country, and potentially outed 2 more. Unlike Philip and Elizabeth and William himself, Oleg isn't face to face with his victim. He can just imagine this is fine, it's an American, not one of the Illegals he was so eager to get more information about when he first got there. William and Philip of course agreed with William about not sending the sample, but they weren't turning in other agents to do so. And even if William had decided not to do this mission he would have been burned.

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think that's the thing.  She doesn't understand the rules because no one has explained them to her.   She tried to be helpful with the Mathew thing and her Parents told her not to.   She doesn't understand the difference between spying on Pastor Tim and on Mathew.  

I think the thing about this scene is that she sometimes needs rules explained that seem obvious and for instance in this scene she wasn't letting her parents explain because she was accusing them. She does that sometimes--which is a very believable teenager thing, but it's not just her parents who aren't communicating well. Or it's one of those frustrating scenes where one party is stuck saying "But that's...that's different!" instead of snapping back with exactly how it's different like when Elizabeth laid out very clearly why Paige was stuck with the Tims.

2 hours ago, Paloma said:

Not sure if our differing views have anything to do with gender and women's greater fear of rape.

Or his different sense in what Elizabeth is capable of in this situation. No matter what training she's had, she's a tiny woman facing off against two men. She wasn't fully in control of that scene.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I really don'tunderstand this sentiment. It would be perfectly reasonable for Paige to go to her parents, and say, "Gee, Mom, gosh, Dad, in about two years I'm going to be a good prospect for life in prison without parole, due to the fact that you have involved me in your criminal conspiracy. Guess what? I don't have anything close to you ideological devotion to seeing this criminal conspiracy succeed, and it would be really dumb of you two to expect me to have that devotion.

Of course it would be, but since that's not her position it's not really relevant. Each time she asks for more details about this criminal conspiracy she makes herself more complicit--and she's to be doing that willingly. Note that in the story of the real Illegals kids the older one basically realized right off that he was better off not knowing, because the more you know the more you have to lie about. Now she's asking for specifics like that Philip is going to get part of a weapon? That's pretty specific info.

In this ep she seemed to be kind of getting into the idea of being a spy--which again seems very right for her at this age, especially in response to her mother's story about Smolensk. (Again it's funny that we hear Elizabeth talk about taking her job when we know her sentiments so well while Philip is the one people wonder about.) 

2 hours ago, Peanutbuttercup said:

 

I think Henry knows more than we've seen, or he's on the verge of knowing more.

 

Watching this ep made me really hope Henry's on his way in now. I really love that for the first time he got interested in what was going on and it was because of the danger. He even seemed to hesitate when he went into his room like he wanted to get more involved. I like to think this is a bit of a turning point of some kind, like Paige started to have in S1 when she was Henry's age. I also liked that he was asking Philip about what happened, because there's so much Elizabeth/Paige stuff and Philip and Henry are harder to pin down because they're less dominant personalities, but are still both similar.

1 hour ago, blixie said:

No he went to meet with William to give him the access codes. And that's when William told him, yeah, I'm not feeling it.

It would have been a bad idea to try to clean up the body. Elizabeth and Paige were long gone and it was in a parking lot. Somebody would probably have found it by then.

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

From William's reaction to Gabriel's news that he could "go home" after this one last mission, I got the feeling William has been paying closer attention to the news from home than Philip and Elizabeth have.

I think it's more that he just gets that that's going to be a big transition. It's not like he's happy in the US with all the grocery stores. He probably would love to retire and be fine if it was in Russia. But it's not like it's going to really feel like home after all this time.

Also regarding the idea that Elizabeth is going to have to see that everything she's fighting for is wrong...there are people who still consider the US Civil War a noble lost cause. Also none of these people are going to relate to this the way a foreigner would, imo. I mean, it's one thing for me to look at this whole system and say that it's obviously terrible and should be torn down, but I'm doing that without it being my own country. Not to mention my country where I grew up in the wake of a horrific invasion.

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

And as it turns out William had been under surveillance. Was that just a coincidence?  Was DON also under surveillance?

We know he was under surveillance. Those were the reports Martha was getting and why Philip went back to his disguise when she left. Not sure about Don--he's not a scientist so might not have had the same kind of info, but maybe he would be.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

9 hours ago, jjj said:

 

When they showed the outdoor Russian cityscape, then the hand reaching for the telephone, did anyone else think it was going to be Martha?

 

Yes!  I started to get really excited to see how Martha was doing.  I wonder if we ever will see her again.

10 minutes ago, jrlr said:

Do you think the Jennings street of address.  Of the number "22" has any heading meaning?? 

 2 Russians, 2 Americans?  2 + 2 = 4?  Figure it out, Stan!

[jrlr]

4 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Sorry, that's incorrect. His address is 221B Baker Street.

My mom is a big mystery book reader...

Oops, you are correct!  I'm a mystery reader too, but I  think I've got a line stuck in my head from a 1970s Agatha Christie parody called Murder by Death in which there's a running gag about "two-two-twain."  I guess comedy fiction overrode mystery fiction in my memory!

[hellmouse]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

12 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Aderholt should be promoted to take charge of the FBI...he's the man. And after remembering how terrible that scene was when Elizabeth killed that very brave woman..to see her son be so cavalier about her death was shocking.

I didn't think he was cavalier, he was just realistic. His 90+ mother with heart disease had a heart attack in the place she liked to be. Why would he have ordered an autopsy? Though there was also a little bit of it being jarring that where we see Betty as a warrior and a woman who lived through a war and had an active love life, of course he sees her as his mom who was elderly and wanted to feel useful. Right in keeping with the theme of the show!

 

Another mother in this episode! I forgot about her. Oleg's mother, Martha's mother, Paige's mother, Mailbot Repair Facility Owner's mother, Mother Russia. 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Another mother in this episode! I forgot about her. Oleg's mother, Martha's mother, Paige's mother, Mailbot Repair Facility Owner's mother, Mother Russia. 

I'm pretty sure that Russian post-WWII was pretty fatherless so it makes sense. Oleg has a father, of course, as does Martha and Philip did for a while. Oleg's father has dealt with him more before now, just as Martha's father has always been more prominent. But the mothers get the more straightforward emotional connection.

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't have any desire for Henry to get any more knowledge about his parents' secret. It would just mean more work for his parents and for Paige. If she really thought about it, would she really want to have to go around with Henry and his friends, just to ensure he keeps his mouth shut?  And what about all the questions Henry would likely ask Paige?  It would seem to have a lot of down sides to me.  I wonder if P & E might look into a military or boarding school for Henry.  Somewhere that he really would like to attend.  Make it his idea, so he can get away from the house.  That would be the best option for Paige too, but it would have to be a facility abroad, run by people who work for the center, so they can keep tabs on her.  

I got a funny feeling when Henry asked about locating something with the phone lines.  E directed him to the garage.  Really?  It made me question what he might find. 

[RedHawk]

Henry does not strike me as the type who would like any sort of military school. And would P & E actually want him to attend one in the U.S.?

After learning the truth, Henry would also be more likely to shut Paige up rather than need her to police him. 

Philip will see Henry's interest in computers and new technology as a plus for the KGB. 

Did anyone else get a chill when Oleg told Tatiana that the schematics he was looking over were for the Challenger space shuttle?

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, RedHawk said:

After learning the truth, Henry would also be more likely to shut Paige up rather than need her to police him. 

Yeah, Henry just doesn't seem to have Paige's problem that way. He does often mouth off stupidly, but not when he knows something is a secret.

My interest in Henry is more just having him come more into the dynamic. Enough with him just always explained away or hanging out with Stan being bro-stuff. He loves his dad, wants to hang out with his dad, and since I also like getting to know his dad, I want more Henry/Philip.  Elizabeth and Paige have been dominant for 4 seasons now.

[teddysmom]

Quote

I've been thinking about how Elizabeth tossed Paige into the pool to teach her to swim. 

That shows just how not vested in parenting Elizabeth was back then.  I guess she would have loved it if Paige had hit her head on the bottom of the pool and drown.  

[scartact]

10 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

That shows just how not vested in parenting Elizabeth was back then.  I guess she would have loved it if Paige had hit her head on the bottom of the pool and drown.  

I don't think that flashback showed Elizabeth's lack of investment in parenting. I've had plenty of friends who told me they learned to swim by basically being tossed into a pool and somehow learning to float. I think it shows that she's very much a "tough love" kind of mother (and person), and she doesn't want to coddle her child.

[madam magpie]

9 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

That shows just how not vested in parenting Elizabeth was back then.  I guess she would have loved it if Paige had hit her head on the bottom of the pool and drown.  

I totally disagree. Elizabeth was trying to teach Paige to be tough and brave. Whether her tactic worked may be up for debate, but she there was absolutely no way that kid was going to die. And Elizabeth was clearly invested: she was there, taking the time with Paige, teaching, cajoling, and then deciding to shock her kid into not being a weak American. 

[Ina123]

3 hours ago, shura said:

I don't think they have ever told Paige they want her to be in the family business or that they expect her to have ideological devotion to the cause of any kind. In fact, they specifically told her they don't want her to do anything at all except spying on the Tims, and that's just about keeping the family from being destroyed. 

And, of course, had Paige not blabbed it to Groovy Hair she wouldn't even have to be doing that.

[teddysmom]

Quote

I don't think that flashback showed Elizabeth's lack of investment in parenting. I've had plenty of friends who told me they learned to swim by basically being tossed into a pool and somehow learning to float. I think it shows that she's very much a "tough love" kind of mother (and person), and she doesn't want to coddle her child.

Agree to disagree on that point. I don't believe in coddling children but I also don't think throwing a small child into a concrete pool is a great idea either.  It doesn't help a child overcome fear, it makes them resent their parent.   

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, scartact said:

I don't think that flashback showed Elizabeth's lack of investment in parenting. I've had plenty of friends who told me they learned to swim by basically being tossed into a pool and somehow learning to float. I think it shows that she's very much a "tough love" kind of mother (and person), and she doesn't want to coddle her child.

Yes, that's a standard tactic for some people learning to swim I've always heard. The very fact that she's there at all shows her invested in parenting. She just doesn't have the same attitude as the other moms there.

[BetyBee]

I'm glad to see that I am not alone in not disliking Paige.  She is a young woman who is coping remarkably well despite the burden placed on her by her parents.  Like Alice, she did not ask for any of this.  I think that P&E have raised two decent kids despite the fact that they were often absentee parents.  I do believe that Henry is starting to question how different their family life is, just as Paige did.  And he is noticing that everyone knows something and he's the odd man out.  I hope one of these kids does go to Stan and that P&E are caught.  They are assassins, in this country illegally and I'm fine with them being caught and punished.  Don't get me wrong - I find them fascinating and they do have redeeming qualities, but that would be the most exciting and logical conclusion to this story.  

I don't trust Gabriel at all and I had my doubts about what William would actually face if he made it home to Mother Russia.  That said, I do believe Gabriel is not long for this world.  That he had to sit down so suddenly is foreshadowing his death, I think.  

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I think that P&E have raised two decent kids despite the fact that they were often absentee parents.

I don't think they were absentee parents most of their lives. There's a tendency to describe the kids as raising themselves but it seems more like their parents were pretty average and it was only when Paige got old enough to babysit that she started doing that sometimes. We've seen them correcting the kids' behavior and spending time with them from the beginning. They definitely didn't happen by accident.

Edited June 2, 2016 by sistermagpie

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh yes.  Gabriel losing his breath and having to sit down.  Hmmmm.......so he wasn't just faking his weakness at the bio plant.  He also talked about how in the end, you are alone.....oh well...I really grew to like Gabriel.  I didn't trust him at first, but he sure did come through for P & E.  I can see why they tried so hard to save him, when he got sick. He certainly is like a father figure to them.  How in the world will he be replaced?

What would happen if Gabriel got sick?  Can they ever go to a hospital?  I mean, a real one, not a makeshift one in a garage. 

Did anyone think that Elizabeth might have fudged a little about her hometown being rebuilt? When she described how torn down it was, I thought she immediately considered how Paige would never want to go visit that kind of place, so then she added the part about it being rebuilt to make it sound more attractive.  Maybe she is thinking about the possibility that they will return to Russia.

[izabella]

57 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I got a funny feeling when Henry asked about locating something with the phone lines.  E directed him to the garage.  Really?  It made me question what he might find. 

I had a moment like that, too, but then I remembered all their spy stuff is in the basement laundry room behind a hidden and locked compartment door.

[Ina123]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yes, and by doing so, Paige is now implicated in a criminal conspiracy which could result in her spending decades in solitary confinement. Frankly, the moment E & P decided to tell her about their true identities (and let us not forget that the KGB wanted Paige to be recruited), Paige in large measure was guaranteed to be so threatened. What is threatening the family is E & P's ideological devotion. E & P think it is it worth it. There is no reasonable expectation for others to think so as well. It is entirely reasonable and ethical for Paige to inform them that she wants no part of it.

My response when they told Paige the family business, would have been to put my hands over my ears and shout "la la la la la la..." I would not want to know anything. There wasn't a kid alive in the 80s above 13 who didn't know there was a cold war going on between the US and the USSR. When they told her, Paige was old enough to know what treason is. I'll give her credit for turning a blind eye for awhile until she sorted it out, and we're all different, but for me, at some point I'm over at Stan's asking for Witness Protection. Treason is a big time crime. I'd do the same if I knew my Mom or Dad or brother murdered someone. (I'm not talking about the mugger. It was justified. But not calling the police would have been a deal breaker for me.)

I just know that I'm a dyed in the wool American and I just couldn't allow it. I have a very strong personality and a feeling of duty about law and order. Treason, murder, rape, etc. aren't gray to me. It's black and white.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Ina123
grammar

[gwhh]

Does this mean the mail robot was the info bit that broke the P&E spy network?  

[RedHawk]

3 minutes ago, gwhh said:

Does this mean the mail robot was the info bit that broke the P&E spy network?  

Mail Robot and Agent Aderholt! They should get a spin-off series.

[madam magpie]

26 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

My response when they told Paige the family business, would have been to put my hands over my ears and shout "la la la la la la..." I would not want to know anything. There wasn't a kid alive in the 80s above 13 who didn't know there was a cold war going on between the US and the USSR. When they told her, Paige was old enough to know what treason is. I'll give her credit for turning a blind eye for awhile until she sorted it out, and we're all different, but for me, at some point I'm over at Stan's asking for Witness Protection. Treason is a big time crime. I'd do the same if I knew my Mom or Dad or brother murdered someone. (I'm not talking about the mugger. It was justified. But not calling the police would have been a deal breaker for me.)

I just know that I'm a died in the wool American and I just couldn't allow it. I have a very strong personality and a feeling of duty about law and order. Treason, murder, rape, etc. aren't gray to me. It's black and white.

I wouldn't. I was terrified of the Cold War, but I was taught by my family that the Soviets were people just like us, sitting in their houses afraid of the Cold War. We didn't agree with Stalinism, but we were anti the Vietnam War, pro Civil Rights, and understanding of communist revolutions in South America. Several people were activists, and my mother was hugely involved in protesting for disarmament. She probably hated Reagan at the time as much as Elizabeth does. Not to mention that I was taught my family was the most important thing. I'd never have turned any of them in as a teenager, not even for being Russian spies. So I have no trouble understanding why Paige doesn't go to Stan. I was baffled that she blabbed to the Groovyhairs.

i also don't think Eluzabeth and Philip especially wanted to recruit her. Elizabeth wanted to tell Paige who they really were. Paige has to be handled because she told the family secret. Her parents don't seem to want her spying in other capacities, though they may not have made that clear to her before.

Paige is believable, I think, and her fear, worry, confusion, pushiness, etc. seem logical to me. She's just not the most fun thing for me to watch on TV. I feel for her, but I also prefer Elizabeth's badassery and wish some of that toughness had rubbed off on Paige.

Edited June 2, 2016 by madam magpie

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, blixie said:

I actually don't think she thought about it that much, beyond keeping them out of it for as long as they could, but also I tend to think of this show as primarily the story of Elizabeth's journey, from a loyal, dedicated soldier who prioritized her ideals, her job, and her country ahead of her primarily "fake" family cover to someone who is no longer just pretending to be an American,I think this season has been brilliant at bringing that into focus for her. When the show started she wasn't in love with Phillip, and her kids were just assignments, she was told to have kids so she did, I think she engaged in  decent amount of disassociation from her family as matter of self preservation because at root she has so little actual control over her life, the Center (and her enemies) make all the decisions about where her life will go and how it will end, and certainly it can dictate to her about the kids. Which she was fine with because she's true believer in her country and Communism. But when she realized she was in love with Phillip and Gregory died, her whole approach to her job changed, it made it so much more difficult. And we see that getting amped up this seasons her genuine affection for Young Hee, attending EST, reaching out to Pastor Tim, her jealousy/resentment of Martha, her personal attachments and her family are now way more important than her Communism certainly and at least as important as her loyalty to her country.

 

Very true.  Although I think this is also a story about family.  All families have differences and problems to overcome, but the Jennings have a dump truck full of them.  When Elizabeth began all of this, she was the child of a traitor, who admired the people who were strong, and fought for survival, and for their country against the Nazis.  She wanted to be one of those people, fighting for her country.  She was Paige's age or less, already "steadfast" but then indoctrinated for years.  When she began, hell, even when she left for America, she had no idea this would become a real marriage, let alone that Center would order them to have children.  When she had children, she had no idea Center would order them indoctrinated as well, or to use them as second generation spies.  She's coping with a lot.  Philip, who is less of a believer, but deeply in love with his wife, has his own issues with all of this.  I think he would have covered for William, for example, but William said "tell him the truth." 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I am not sure why people don't like Paige.  She acts exactly like any normal teenager who witnessed her parent kill a guy.  I am not sure if everyone expects high fives and pizza.  Paige reacted like anyone would.   "Maybe we should call the cops.  No?   Oh yeah right. "  I think her biggest problem was that her mother didn't react the way a normal person would or the way Paige thought a normal person should,  Killing someone isn't something you just walk off.

I think that's the thing.  She doesn't understand the rules because no one has explained them to her.   She tried to be helpful with the Mathew thing and her Parents told her not to.   She doesn't understand the difference between spying on Pastor Tim and on Mathew.   I think that is why I find Paige so fascinating and not annoying,

She is actually getting good at this but doesn't understand the rules.  

She's trying to find her way.  She does seem more naive than some teenagers, but that is probably because Philip and Elizabeth have always given her a safe place (from her view) and yeah, Falls Church is pretty upper-middle class and a very safe area. 

4 hours ago, Paloma said:

I thought that Elizabeth was justified in killing the guy to protect Paige, and that any parent would do the same if he or she had the training, but my husband strongly disagreed--he thought that she could have and should have just disarmed him so she and Paige could get away (since the other guy had already run away). Not sure if our differing views have anything to do with gender and women's greater fear of rape.

Men!  Yeah, good luck with overpowering two men, one with a knife, with your helpless teenage daughter standing there ready to be snatched as a hostage or killed.  Seriously, I don't care how well trained a woman is, in hand to hand combat, and a "fair" fight?  She will lose every damn time.  Men, even wimpy men, have much greater upper body strength and weight.  As a woman who has been in a struggle with a man, a man really not that much bigger than me?  I lost, and only the arrival of another man on the scene prevented rape and more.  After that?  I got trained. 

There is a reason hoods and cops are more afraid of an armed woman than they are of an armed man.  Because a woman has no options, she WILL use what she has, she can't bare-fisted fight you and win.  Killing that asshole was Elizabeth's ONLY option.  harrumphhh!

3 hours ago, shura said:

Reason number 7019 she is not nearly sharp enough to be a spy while her brother is. Henry didn't seem to have any trouble sensing they were in danger there, so much danger, in fact, that he felt justified to almost do to the creep what Elizabeth did to Lisa.

When he asked if she'd seen the cable box (or what was it), I thought Elizabeth was going to casually reply "You know my secret hiding place in the garage, behind the dryer? Go check there." She knows that he knows! And I am starting to think now that Henry was not being clueless when he invited Stan to dinner last week - he was just trolling his parents.

 

Henry definitely is much more aware of things than his parents or sister know.  Twice now we've had lingering camera shots of his face after his parents shuffle Paige off somewhere.  After hockey, and last night when the left to "see how Paige is."  I don't think the directors would include those shots just to fuck with us.  Also, Chekhov's computer is a given.

 

3 hours ago, teddysmom said:

 

I did notice they changed the mail boxes in front of the Jennings' house. It has a number on it instead of A-B-C. But I still don't get the layout of that structure. They have to live in some maintenance free home subdivision. Their home has a common wall with another.  

 

They messed up with the house for sure, probably less money for production things and now they are trying to fix that error.  I'm positive it's supposed to be a detached house.  I'm letting it go.  FX doesn't have the money of big networks, let alone HBO.

3 hours ago, RedHawk said:

From William's reaction to Gabriel's news that he could "go home" after this one last mission, I got the feeling William has been paying closer attention to the news from home than Philip and Elizabeth have. I guess they kind of close their eyes to the reports of Russia's shortages and breadlines and economic difficulties, or they think it's propaganda. I think William knows that it's all true because he seemed very UNexcited by the thought of going back there. (Sure didn't seem interested in getting a wife either! I giggled and thought, what if they try to set him up with Martha?)

Or maybe his exposure to toxins, like Botox, has also cost him his ability to change facial expressions.

Oh I agree!  I never thought William was that interested in going home, and I also got the idea that he didn't really buy the "treated as a hero" stuff.  His partner was killed or is stuck in a Gulag somewhere.  I think he is tired of no family, and living in a plastic wrapped apartment, and I think he's horrified at the idea of Russia having the toxin when they can't even get bottles with lids that actually screw tightly.  From the previews though,

Spoiler

it does look like he kills himself rather than be questioned or tortured into giving up Gabe and the Jennings.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

Back when Tatiana was engaged in pillow talk with Oleg, I suspected that she would betray him, but as it turns out, it's the other way around. I suppose that if she is honest, she'll have to report that Oleg knew, due to her breach.  So, that's her fault and she will suffer.  I'm not sure what the punishment will be.

 

I think she'll keep her mouth shut.  She knows what Russia is like now.  That information could have come to the FBI in several ways.  She doesn't strike me as an idiot.  She may suspect Oleg, but she'll cover her own ass.

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

I think it's about the contrast between the mundane nature of the location (a fast food restaurant in the suburbs) and the unrecognized larger implications of the encounter (he's not just some mob hood, he's a Russian spy!). Which outlines one of the major themes of the episode: how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The cleaning lady thinks she's snooping for the mob, but she's really betraying her country to the Soviet Union. Paige thinks she knows what it means that her parents are spies, but she's broken when she realizes what they really do. And Oleg realizes that while his country's scientists think they're equipped to handle Tatiana's stolen bioweapons, they know just enough to get everybody killed.

On another topic, I'm definitely not on board with the Paige hatred here. In fact, I'm pretty baffled by the argument that it's implausible or out of character for Paige to be so thrown by her mother's actions. My upbringing was similar to Paige's -- I grew up sheltered in the suburbs in the 1980s -- and I would absolutely have been just as freaked out if I saw my mom stab someone to death in front me. Especially if she was so blase about it afterward. The fact that we've seen Philip and Elizabeth kill people so often it's become routine doesn't mean that Paige is going to find it a straightforward experience.

I'm not either, my initial problem was that she seemed pretty naive for a 15 year old, because I was in no way naive at that time.  Then I thought of my friends, and yeah, she was very much like them.  Fairly well to do, good neighborhood, protected, and after some thought I realize she is very much like they were.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I've enjoyed aspects of this show, which is why I've stayed as long as I have with it, but I really differ with the prevailing sentiment on this board that the writing has been consistently good. I think the dialogue has been very uneven, the characters given major screen time, beyond  E & P,  Martha, and Gabriel, poorly drawn, and the plotting way too contrived at times. I think the premise of the show is one of the all time greats, the two central protagonists are wonderfuly written, and even better acted, and the Martha story arc was just tremedous, including the actor playing Martha being even better than the actors playing E & P. That's been enough for me to watch, although I fear the end of the Martha story arc is going to be even more of a storytelling problem than, say, the death of Tywin Lannister was to GoT, which is a pretty big problem indeed.

The Paige story arc has been problematic from the beginning. The idea of raising a child as a typical, affluent, American teenager until well into adolescence, and then quickly submerging her into a ideological POV which is alien to her experience, is pretty ridiculous. Yes, two parents could inculcate a child into that life of espionage, but they better not start, all of a sudden, when the kid is 14. The way this has been storyboarded really guarantees a lot of "ugh" moments and dialogue.

It IS ridiculous, I think that's the entire point.  The Soviet Union, unbeknownst to the Jennings for the most part, is completely desperate now.  Additionally, "Center" is completely unaware of what it's like to be raised with freedom.  Center is composed of the most hard core of hard core, the others are dead.  Even if there are a few voices trying to talk them out of this second generation spy plan?  How loud are those voices?  My guess would be not loud at all, because you simply don't disagree with the powers that be in the USSR, let alone the highest ranks of the KGB and those they report to. 

So the orders come down, and people fall in line, because if they argue too much?  Their lives are over, one way or another.  Death, Gulag, or simply removing their job and making them "parasites" homeless with no food, everything gone.  That's HOW this all happened.  A dying regime, desperate, and bureaucracy deluding themselves, with no one brave or stupid enough to really speak up and say "This won't work."  At the end of the day, even the slightest hope that it will work is enough.  Even after the other illegal family was wiped out, even then?  "Go forward."  It feels incredibly real to me, and the show dropping all the breadcrumbs of how desperate things are getting in the USSR makes it even more believable.

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, how did the FBI locate William?  Apparently, they had a list of all the scientists who have access to bio intel in the US. That's a lot of people, I would imagine.  And they happen to have access to all the death certificates from over 40 years ago at their finger tips.  Is this right? They found William's pretty quick.  And as it turns out William had been under surveillance. Was that just a coincidence?  Was DON also under surveillance?

They went through every single file of everyone working off site for the DoD in bioweapon labs.  They had the whole FBI in on it, the news came in from some office in Ohio or whatever it was.  Researching death certificates matched against names was possible even then, it just took more time than now, when everything is on computer and instantly accessed.

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I completely disagree that the FBI is incompetent, or more incompetent than the KGB.  We see both agencies making human mistakes.  These people aren't robots or fictional superspies, this isn't The Borne Identity.  It is very real, well, except for the fast forwarding of plots and cases for action sequences for TV, and the Jennings doing B&E, hand offs, etc.  Although the hand offs between embedded spies seem real, and are justified, because their identity would be protected even from most of Arkady's crew, possibly from Arkady himself.  Compartmentalizing is part of the deal.

The KGB ordering the Jennings to recruit their children?  MISTAKE.  (and they have had many other mistakes)

Stan is a perfectly competent agent in many, many ways.  His divorce, mostly from PTSD after being embedded for so long with scum, left him more vulnerable.  Human.  Still, Nina was a good source, until it all went wrong.  He's been recruiting Oleg all along, and it just paid off big time.  He's the one that suspected Martha and proved it as well.  Aderholt was being a "real" spy, painstakingly going over paperwork for months and finding the death around the time of the mail robot repair.  We didn't need to watch him sift through piles of paperwork for days on end. 

Spies are human, on both sides.  They fuck up, they get fooled, they succeed, they have wins as well.  This show is pretty good at that part.

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

My response when they told Paige the family business, would have been to put my hands over my ears and shout "la la la la la la..." I would not want to know anything. There wasn't a kid alive in the 80s above 13 who didn't know there was a cold war going on between the US and the USSR. When they told her, Paige was old enough to know what treason is. I'll give her credit for turning a blind eye for awhile until she sorted it out, and we're all different, but for me, at some point I'm over at Stan's asking for Witness Protection. Treason is a big time crime. I'd do the same if I knew my Mom or Dad or brother murdered someone. (I'm not talking about the mugger. It was justified. But not calling the police would have been a deal breaker for me.)

I just know that I'm a died in the wool American and I just couldn't allow it. I have a very strong personality and a feeling of duty about law and order. Treason, murder, rape, etc. aren't gray to me. It's black and white.

Without reference to feelings of duty to law and order, it can be hard enough to recruit family children into the family business, if the parents have been selling the kids on the notion since they could talk, and the business has the potential for great material rewards. American children, raised as Americans, have a great tendency to wish to seek their own path, whenever possible.

Here's the sales pitch to Paige....

"OK, we've been lying our a$$ off to you for years, but it's all better now! We're involved in a criminal conspiracy that in a couple years that can get you life in solitary confinement, if you choose to stay quiet about our real identities. This criminal conspiracy is pursued out of idelogical devotion that you have no reason to have any emotional or rational atttachment to, but, hey, don't dwell on that! We're your parents who have lied to you all your life, and will continue to lie to you when we see the need, to pursue ideological ends that you have no commitment to! Want some hot cocoa?!"

An entirely rational response by Paige would be to run away from these two creeps. Whether she would sell them out for cash would depend on whether she can be as cold blooded as her mother. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by Bannon
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[teddysmom]

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They messed up with the house for sure, probably less money for production things and now they are trying to fix that error.  I'm positive it's supposed to be a detached house.  I'm letting it go.  FX doesn't have the money of big networks, let alone HBO.

I agree. I think it came up again because in this episode the mailbox was changed and we were checking to see if the house was different. I never really noticed it til this past weekend when I started watching the first 2 seasons again and noticed the garage doors across from the Jennings'.