S11.E23: Alpha And Omega

[SueB]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say he had no role. He influenced her final decision to the extent that she felt it was okay for her to reconcile with Chuck but if she hadn't already been influenced by pigeon lady she would have taken out Dean the moment she knew he had again betrayed her by being the actual bomb.

I just don't see how this is a supported statement.  We know she's admitted she can't hurt Dean and she didn't think he could hurt her. I think the Pigeon Lady was there to verbalize where Amara's head was already at.  The dead geraniums, her somber demeanor.  And the Pigeon Lady showed that Amara was feeling guilt, already, about what was happening.  

I think it was Dean who put it all together for Amara.  She knew she was feeling like shit and she really didn't understand the "why" of her feelings.  Dean comes along and correctly points out that this is where revenge takes you.  Once she got her revenge, she deflated like a balloon.  All her intensity was gone and she really didn't know WHAT was going on.  Dean, who she KNOWS is carrying a bomb, she still has a connection that makes her trust him.  There's an intimacy (non-sexual) that has worked well with Dean's straight-forward approach.  And when he tells her this is how revenge feels, it rings true.  And he's also believable when he says that Chuck doesn't want her dead.  That he's not really on-board with the plan but has to accept it, given he's dying.  THOSE were the key messages that let her know her brother still loves her.  That made her think that maybe there is a way to back out of the chain of events that started when she mortally wounded God.

And the most important tell, was Amara's nervousness to discuss this with God. What does she do? She sort of looks at Dean for moral support as she lays her cards on the table with God.  In other words... I see nothing but evidence that it was Dean who turned Amara around and Dean who stopped the slow slide into universe oblivion.  It was Dean who saw opportunity and changed the direction from dead Amara/Chuck to a reconciled Amara/Chuck.  And it was a MUCH better solution.  Plan B was a good backup plan but still relied on "if's" (i.e. IF both Light and Dark die, the universe survives... it's logical but who said it would be without consequences).  Plan C (Yellow Crayon speech) was a guaranteed status-quo success that Dean recognized and pushed through as a solution.  Cause he's both quick witted and an excellent champion of Team Humanity.  Makes him a Big Damn Hero in my book.  

Edited May 28, 2016 by SueB

[call me ishmael]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I just don't see how this is a supported statement.  We know she's admitted she can't hurt Dean and she didn't think he could hurt her. I think the Pigeon Lady was there to verbalize where Amara's head was already at.  The dead geraniums, her somber demeanor.  And the Pigeon Lady showed that Amara was feeling guilt, already, about what was happening.  

I think it was Dean who put it all together for Amara.  She knew she was feeling like shit and she really didn't understand the "why" of her feelings.  Dean comes along and correctly points out that this is where revenge takes you.  Once she got her revenge, she deflated like a balloon.  All her intensity was gone and she really didn't know WHAT was going on.  Dean, who she KNOWS is carrying a bomb, she still has a connection that makes her trust him.  There's an intimacy (non-sexual) that has worked well with Dean's straight-forward approach.  And when he tells her this is how revenge feels, it rings true.  And he's also believable when he says that Chuck doesn't want her dead.  That he's not really on-board with the plan but has to accept it, given he's dying.  THOSE were the key messages that let her know her brother still loves her.  That made her think that maybe there is a way to back out of the chain of events that started when she mortally wounded God.

And the most important tell, was Amara's nervousness to discuss this with God. What does she do? She sort of looks at Dean for moral support as she lays her cards on the table with God.  In other words... I see nothing but evidence that it was Dean who turned Amara around and Dean who stopped the slow slide into universe oblivion.  It was Dean who saw opportunity and changed the direction from dead Amara/Chuck to a reconciled Amara/Chuck.  And it was a MUCH better solution.  Plan B was a good backup plan but still relied on "if's" (i.e. IF both Light and Dark die, the universe survives... it's logical but who said it would be without consequences).  Plan C (Yellow Crayon speech) was a guaranteed status-quo success that Dean recognized and pushed through as a solution.  Cause he's both quick witted and an excellent champion of Team Humanity.  Makes him a Big Damn Hero in my book.  

I'm also not sure that Amara killed the geraniums.  Remember when Dean asked her to stop the sun from dying she said it wasn't her it was the end of Chuck and that everything was going to end when Chuck did.  I think that the geraniums and the sun made her realize that she wasn't going to survive either.  But she needed Dean to convince her that there was something worth surviving for--that revenge wasn't victory but defeat.

[SueB]

Just now, call me ishmael said:

I'm also not sure that Amara killed the geraniums.  Remember when Dean asked her to stop the sun from dying she said it wasn't her it was the end of Chuck and that everything was going to end when Chuck did.  I think that the geraniums and the sun made her realize that she wasn't going to survive either.  But she needed Dean to convince her that there was something worth surviving for--that revenge wasn't victory but defeat.

I actually had to double check the episode to be sure before I made the comment on Thursday.  She did it.  I don't know the "hows" but you see her hand trail over the geraniums, past a post and onto a second box.  Then she turns around and both boxes are now full of dead flowers and she looks at her hands. It's also why she had them folded on her lap and wouldn't touch the bird seed.  

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

I'm also not sure that Amara killed the geraniums.  Remember when Dean asked her to stop the sun from dying she said it wasn't her it was the end of Chuck and that everything was going to end when Chuck did.  I think that the geraniums and the sun made her realize that she wasn't going to survive either.  But she needed Dean to convince her that there was something worth surviving for--that revenge wasn't victory but defeat.

I think she was killing the flowers because the sun dying shouldn't have killed the geraniums that quickly. And IMO that's why she didn't want to feed the pigeons and held her hands as she did. She thought she was killing them. I think she meant that the sun was dying because Chuck was dying. 

@SueB

From 11.01

Quote

If you're as bad as they say you are, why haven't you hurt me? For the same reason that you'll never hurt me. We're bound, Dean. We'll always be bound. You helped me. I helped you. No matter where I am, who I am...

Are you saying that she admitted it from the beginning she was never actually a threat to him? He couldn't hurt her because she is God-dess. She can stop him from hurting her. She chose to not hurt him. That's not the same thing.

She always held his life in her hands. Subsuming Dean IS hurting Dean. Hurting the people Dean loves IS hurting Dean. (She was hurting Cas' vessel) Her ignorance of humanity doesn't mean she couldn't hurt him.

If they were going for her not be able to hurt Dean, then Dean's entire fear and IMO obvious dread when he had to face her...was pointless and makes Dean and the audience fools for believing her. I don't think that's what they intended.

Edited May 28, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think she was killing the flowers because the sun dying shouldn't have killed the geraniums that quickly. And IMO that's why she didn't want to feed the pigeons and held her hands as she did. She thought she was killing them. I think she meant that the sun was dying because Chuck was dying. 

@SueB

From 11.01

Are you saying that she admitted it from the beginning she was never actually a threat to him? He couldn't hurt her because she is God-dess. She can stop him from hurting her. She chose to not hurt him. That's not the same thing.

She always held his life in her hands. Subsuming Dean IS hurting Dean. Hurting the people Dean loves IS hurting Dean. (She was hurting Cas' vessel) Her ignorance of humanity doesn't mean she couldn't hurt him.

If they were going for her not be able to hurt Dean, then Dean's entire fear and IMO obvious dread when he had to face her...was pointless and makes Dean and the audience fools for believing her. I don't think that's what they intended.

I think they left it vague.  It's implied choice but Dean really DID want to hurt her and couldn't (presumably because of her power). And yet God suggested he didn't WANT to in 11.22. She acted like she was going to suck out his soul but didn't. Dean had every reason to be terrified even if the black fog didn't hurt him.  There was no definitive anything about that connection. 

So your statement that without pigeon lady, Amara would have killed Dean does not seem supported to me. Even in the big battle Dean struggled with what she was going through. And she threw him but killing him would have been a flick of the wrist. And she could zap out of range if she felt she had to take him out. So, I see no rationale that she would have killed him without Pigeon Lady.  That's inconsistent with the entire season. 

[MysteryGuest]

All Dean had to do was put his fingers together and the bomb would have gone off, so it's hard to say who would have killed whom first.  

If God was correct, and the reason Dean couldn't kill Amara was because he subconsciously didn't want to, then maybe the same could be said of her.  She wanted to suck his soul out, but couldn't.  She was angry with him for aligning with God, but didn't do anything.  She discovered them trying to trap Lucifer, and she chose to free Sam and Dean rather than hurt them.  She certainly had ample opportunity to kill Dean if that was her intent.  Amara seemed just as perplexed about the nature of their relationship as Dean was.  But his fear of her was genuine.  He didn't know for sure she wouldn't hurt him, even though she told him right up front that they would always protect each other.  Plus, she's freaking God's sister, and she's pissed off and taking it out on the world.  I think that's enough to make her someone to fear.

[bearcatfan]

While I don't believe that Amara would have killed Dean without pigeon lady I do think she helped validate what Dean later said about family. The fact that it came from someone who didn't have an ulterior motive where Amara was concerned certainly helped matters.

This may sound crazy but I think that bullet didn't hit Sam at all. Either his previously dormant psychic powers stopped the bullet or God gave him some sort of protection because all we heard was the bullet hit the ground and saw a scared look on Toni's face. Maybe I'm only thinking this because of Jared's answer to the question about Sam's powers at JIBcon, but something happened to cause that look on her face and the nervous swallowing she did. I didn't hear one thing from Sam. No body hitting the floor. No cry of pain. There would be a grunt at least if he was hit, right?

At least we know they got Baby out of the bunker. We didn't see her last week, did we?

[7kstar]

Watching a second time and fast forwarding through the introduction of Toni, I found myself liking it a bit more.

This time Sam is on the sidelines where Dean was on the sidelines in Swan Song.  I guess an important factor for me was that Sam's role was important and they didn't drop his story to give to someone else as a bad switch and bait.  Sam had faith, that something could be done.  He didn't give up and quit.  Who started what, didn't matter anymore.  Blame was divided IMO.  God didn't deal with his sister in a fair way.  Thus his actions caused all the chain reactions.  His blaming Sam, was to avoid ownership for his own blame for everything.  He's shown the be the bratty child that doesn't own up to his mistakes.  He couldn't or wouldn't until he was dying.

Dean didn't know that Amara couldn't hurt him.  How many times has it been Dean that has gotten through to the darkness over taking a human.  It's what Dean does.  He reached his Dad, Bobby and now Amara.  Plus I believe she could feel him not really wanting it to end this way, wishing for a better way.  She provides the information that God hadn't given.  She wasn't killing the sun.  They were both dying.  Now there is another option and Dean does what he does best.  He opens up about the price of revenge and how it doesn't make anything better.  He gets her to listen and willing to try something different.  The pigeon lady may have opened the door, but Dean sealed the deal.

Both brothers looked like heroes to me.  I don't think it was by fluke that God's last response to Dean's question is the world has you and Sam.  Dean needs Sam to function.  Sam needs Dean to function.  So it shows that Love is the strongest power or emotion, if that makes sense.

I really liked how they had the two leave by having a spiral of light and dark moving up and out. 

Will they ever please anyone...no but at least I'm not angry this time.  I expected that we wouldn't be satisfied with how they did it because they are stuck in a pattern of story telling.  They can't seem to stop the formula, but maybe at least they have stopped the two brother's angst over nothing really.

Personally, I think Dean does have issues with his Mom to complete.  So I'm hoping they do something unexpected with her.  I may be let down, but for now I'll take a page from Sam's book and remain hopeful.  :)

[AwesomO4000]

34 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Watching a second time and fast forwarding through the introduction of Toni, I found myself liking it a bit more.

This time Sam is on the sidelines where Dean was on the sidelines in Swan Song.  I guess an important factor for me was that Sam's role was important and they didn't drop his story to give to someone else as a bad switch and bait.  Sam had faith, that something could be done.  He didn't give up and quit.  Who started what, didn't matter anymore.  Blame was divided IMO.  God didn't deal with his sister in a fair way.  Thus his actions caused all the chain reactions.  His blaming Sam, was to avoid ownership for his own blame for everything.  He's shown the be the bratty child that doesn't own up to his mistakes.  He couldn't or wouldn't until he was dying.

Dean didn't know that Amara couldn't hurt him.  How many times has it been Dean that has gotten through to the darkness over taking a human.  It's what Dean does.  He reached his Dad, Bobby and now Amara.  Plus I believe she could feel him not really wanting it to end this way, wishing for a better way.  She provides the information that God hadn't given.  She wasn't killing the sun.  They were both dying.  Now there is another option and Dean does what he does best.  He opens up about the price of revenge and how it doesn't make anything better.  He gets her to listen and willing to try something different.  The pigeon lady may have opened the door, but Dean sealed the deal.

I wish that I could also see it this way, but, for me, that who started what didn't matter at that particular moment didn't entirely erase an entire season of set up previously - season 10 - that Amara being released was mainly Sam's fault. That entire season went out of the way to have a neon sign pointing to that fact starting with the lengths Sam went through to find Dean, through his lying to Dean about what he was doing, using Rowena to help, and getting Charlie killed (with even Dean's harsh opinion on that emphasizing how bad that was), all the way to letting the mark be removed even after Death's warning. I'm not saying that I didn't like the finale, but that's an awful lot of set up for me to just overlook, and if they didn't want Sam to get blame, in my opinion, there were lots of ways they could have tempered the set up to do so. Asking me to just forget about who did what after they spent so much time setting up exactly who did it - since Chuck wouldn't have had to deal with Amara or have been dying if she hadn't escaped - and then adding another town full of innocents dead as collateral damage was not the way to do that, in my opinion. But I understand that opinions on that are going to vary.

I also might've considered Sam's faith here more important if maybe we had gotten more interaction between Chuck and Sam. I personally think it was a mistake to have their conversations happen offscreen.

As for the "bait and switch" with Dean in Swan Song", I guess that I didn't see it that way, because I never wanted Dean to say "yes" to Michael anyway. Michael was a jerk, in my opinion, and I could've cared less if he told Dean "you're not a part of this story anymore." My thought was "Good. Why would he want to be part of your (Michael's) stupid story anyway?" For me, in "Swan Song" Dean tried to do what he'd always done before as with all of the other examples you'd given - get through to Sam in the face of the darkness (Lucifer) even if it was just to let Sam know that he was there for him. To find another way than just accepting a lot of deaths. And that Dean was willing not to do it in a way that would sacrifice some to save the rest - just like he wasn't willing to do so in "Jus in Bello" - and was willing to die for that principal was very Dean, in my opinion. Adam for me wasn't a bait and switch so much as a cautionary tale. Believing Zachariah and saying "yes" to Michael even though he knew people would die - because Adam was aware of that part of it - was not the way to go, in my opinion, and that's why Adam ended up burned in the end.

Thinking back on it now, these storylines were more similar than I thought at first... Amara did what Michael should have done. Unlike Amara, Michael chose revenge. He chose not to forgive and was going to sacrifice half of the population so he could be "right." Brother/brother. Brother/Sister. Both stories had betrayal - and even both stories had Lucifer and Amara having done things to bring the "betrayal" down on themselves - and one sibling being locked away for the greater good. Amara and Chuck, however, were able to put aside the differences and compromise to avoid messing up the world where Michael and Lucifer could not and were willing to sacrifice at least half of mankind to make their point. (Did I mention that I think Michael is a huge jerk? ; ) )

[SueB]

You're right... Michael was stubborn... and is now "in no condition to fight".  Notice that it seems God just LEFT him there?  Man, don't piss off THAT Dad.  

If it's any consolation... I think S12 is going to hit on "Who shot JR?" Supernatural-style.  It sure seems like Toni & company want to go through the whole "you are guilty of x, y, & z" bit.  I'm hoping they put this guilt thing to bed.  

Edited May 29, 2016 by SueB

[KirkB]

I don't really have an issue with the surviving Men of Letters coming after the Winchesters. They have been nearly as responsible for the world coming close to ending numerous times as they are responsible for stopping it. To a certain extent I can understand taking them to task. What I question is why they decided to do it now, in the middle of yet another potential apocalypse. Which they knew was happening. What would have been the point of capturing or killing them only for creation to end when Chuck died?

[mertensia]

But as I pointed out: where the hell was their trying to help? Seriously if they're so superior they should have been helping them.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

I don't really have an issue with the surviving Men of Letters coming after the Winchesters. They have been nearly as responsible for the world coming close to ending numerous times as they are responsible for stopping it. To a certain extent I can understand taking them to task. What I question is why they decided to do it now, in the middle of yet another potential apocalypse. Which they knew was happening. What would have been the point of capturing or killing them only for creation to end when Chuck died?

Yeah, it does seem like a pointless task at that moment, but I assumed since she said "assuming the world didn't end" they were thinking Sam and Dean would fix it and those snobby stuffed shirts just didn't want to give them the opportunity to break it again. Not that I think everything is actually their fault, though, but I can see why the MoL might think it was.

I am kinda surprised they didn't show up sooner to try and kick those mouth breathing hunters out of the bunker though. I mean, sure, they're supposed to be legacies, but the MoL don't really seem like they would just let a couple yahoo hunters live in one of their bunkers all this time. Plus, if they could just waltz right in like that, why didn't they come and take over the bunker back in the day? I mean, they just left all that knowledge sitting there? 

Yeah, I know...I really do know...

57 minutes ago, mertensia said:

But as I pointed out: where the hell was their trying to help? Seriously if they're so superior they should have been helping them.  

Well, she said they were very traditional and kept to their studies without getting involved. I really don't like what the MoL represent on this show. My hope is that Sam and Dean will obliterate them all! ;)

Edited May 29, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[7kstar]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not saying that I didn't like the finale, but that's an awful lot of set up for me to just overlook, and if they didn't want Sam to get blame, in my opinion, there were lots of ways they could have tempered the set up to do so. Asking me to just forget about who did what after they spent so much time setting up exactly who did it - since Chuck wouldn't have had to deal with Amara or have been dying if she hadn't escaped - and then adding another town full of innocents dead as collateral damage was not the way to do that, in my opinion. But I understand that opinions on that are going to vary.

But that would mean that they actually planned out the seasons!  It's why I'm not upset.  I didn't expect full closure from the writers because they are terrible at endings.  It's too hard.  A somewhat quote from season 5.  Yes in 10 you have Sam releasing the Darkness but you also have Dean blindly taking on the mark in 9. 

So if Dean starting the Apocalypse by being broken in hell counts, then Dean taking on the mark is a major key point. 

However, if you really follow the chain of events it goes back to a brother and sister not understanding each other.  Did they skip a lot of key points, of course, they always do. 

I guess for me this time, I saw Sam's reasons being colored by I love my brother and I can't lose him.  He told Charlie, of course, not Dean...but we saw why he was conflicted.

Now if this next season takes them both to task for the damage they have caused trying to help, that might be a interesting tale and still allow for the funny one off hunts.  I don't care to see someone blaming Sam anymore because I'm so sick of the manipulation for bad story telling.  

They will never address all of the points, they never have, beginning with why did Dean's eyes bleed in Bloody Mary.  So we got a resolution without making either brother nothing.  Sam was looking after God.  It makes sense that Amara would only allow one human to witness her conversation with her brother.  Dean was the one human she would save as she had no problem letting Sam die.

Sam united the troops, a important role.  Without that moment, Dean would have drunk himself to death literally.  Does the final have its weaknesses, oh hell yeah, but it wasn't as bad as I feared it could go.  It did what I expected.  Something tied up too quickly, once again.  I blame the writing.  Do I wish they would really plan out the seasons instead of reacting to a moment, of course...but they have done this every year so I just now choose to enjoy the moments I like and fanfiction is a wonderful place to use to write out your frustrations and fix those nasty plot holes.  :)

So go write that conversation with God and Sam.  Expecting the show to do it...well you'll be disappointed.  JMV.  :)

Edited May 29, 2016 by 7kstar
Hopefully a little clearer

[MysteryGuest]

I really hate that either Sam or Dean are blamed for jump-starting multiple apocalypses.  From the very beginning, their fate was pretty much sealed.  Mary made a deal to save John, which ultimately cost her her life trying to save Sam, and it also set them all on the path they're on now.  But her parents chose to involve her in the hunting life, just like John's father intended to involve him in the MOL, and so on and so on.  I'm not sure any of them actually had a "choice".  

Personally, I blame the demons and angels for manipulating vulnerable humans into doing their bidding, whether it's making a bad deal to save a loved one, or allowing an angel to possess you.  Sam and Dean have absolutely made mistakes along the way, but there's not exactly a rule book for them to follow.  Most of the time, they were not aware of the repercussions of their actions...Dean had no idea he would break the first seal, and Sam didn't know that killing Lillith would break the last one.  Again, angels and demons in their circle had this information, but very conveniently decided not to share.  I put the main onus on them.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I really hate that either Sam or Dean are blamed for jump-starting multiple apocalypses.  From the very beginning, their fate was pretty much sealed.  Mary made a deal to save John, which ultimately cost her her life trying to save Sam, and it also set them all on the path they're on now.  But her parents chose to involve her in the hunting life, just like John's father intended to involve him in the MOL, and so on and so on.  I'm not sure any of them actually had a "choice".  

Personally, I blame the demons and angels for manipulating vulnerable humans into doing their bidding, whether it's making a bad deal to save a loved one, or allowing an angel to possess you.  Sam and Dean have absolutely made mistakes along the way, but there's not exactly a rule book for them to follow.  Most of the time, they were not aware of the repercussions of their actions...Dean had no idea he would break the first seal, and Sam didn't know that killing Lillith would break the last one.  Again, angels and demons in their circle had this information, but very conveniently decided not to share.  I put the main onus on them.

But, do the MoL know that Sam and Dean had been pushed around by the supernatural all their lives? From the outside--only seeing actions and not really being part of the action--the evidence does not stack up in Sam and Dean's favor. I think that was kinda the point of their run ins with with law in the past and I would assume that's kinda the point of this storyline. Hey, maybe Toni will become the next Hendrickson? 

Edited May 29, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[KirkB]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, do the MoL know that Sam and Dean had been pushed around by the supernatural all their lives? From the outside--only seeing actions and not really being part of the action--the evidence does not stack up in Sam and Dean's favor. I think that was kinda the point of their run ins with with law in the past and I would assume that's kinda the point of this storyline. Hey, maybe Toni will become the next Hendrickson? 

 

Exactly. WE get to see everything. The MoL, presumably, only see the results. From their perspective, Sam and Dean broke the seals. Sam and Dean released Lucifer. Sam and Dean released Amara. Hell, it's partly because of Sam and Dean that Cas was able to take on all the souls and declare himself God, and he released the Leviathans, they helped Metatron kick the angels out of heaven. Sure, there was a whole lot else going on behind the scenes the MoL probably do not know anything about, like just how much they've been manipulated by angels and demons for most of their lives, and the Winchesters did clean up most of their messes in the end anyway. But on a certain level it does look pretty bad.

[MysteryGuest]

Oh, I totally agree with you both.  And I've always enjoyed the episodes where they come up against the law.  I think it's very realistic that they would look like major criminals to anyone looking in from the outside, and they've left a trail of mayhem behind them.  But the MOL know all about the supernatural, so you'd think they'd at least be a bit more aware than your run of the mill cop or FBI agent.  

I'm intrigued by that part of the story for next year, even though I wasn't happy with how they introduced the character.  At least it's preferable to having God and Amara's parents show up...

Edited May 29, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Wynne88]

Now that the 'traditional' MoL know about Sam and Dean hanging out in the bunker, does that mean they will lose it as a home?  Although miles vary, I've always really liked that set and would be sad to see it go.  (This assumes that whatshername didn't kill Sam, nor succeed in bringing him in.)

[Binns]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

Now that the 'traditional' MoL know about Sam and Dean hanging out in the bunker, does that mean they will lose it as a home?  Although miles vary, I've always really liked that set and would be sad to see it go.  (This assumes that whatshername didn't kill Sam, nor succeed in bringing him in.)

From a purely economic point of view I doubt we would ever lose that set. I guess they could repurpose it or something. But they put a lot into that. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

  Exactly. WE get to see everything. The MoL, presumably, only see the results. From their perspective, Sam and Dean broke the seals. Sam and Dean released Lucifer. Sam and Dean released Amara.

But how do they think all those problems got resolved? Obviously, the world didn`t end either time. If they know how it came about, they should know how it was a averted. Not to mention, they apparently felt comfortable sitting on their asses during each apocalypse. Thanks for nothing, guys. 

I think calling the Winchesters on some things is valid but some stuff Watcher`s council rip-off is probably not gonna be the best way to do it. That way it already undercuts any validity the arguments might have. Which might be the point.

Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that since Dabb is now showrunner, he plans to "sneakily" bring in the show he was actually meant to showrun back in Season 9. Which would have been the Bloodlines spin-off had it gotten through. Posh people pulling the strings in the background.

He alloted a quarter of the Season Finale to the introduction of Lady Blabla and 95 % of those scenes we didn`t need. The final tag would have been sufficient. That it got this much exposure is IMO because that is what Dabb is interested in. Problem is I don`t know of a single fan faction who liked the Bloodlines concept. Even if you repurpose it and put the Supernatural main characters into it, the problem of the episode was the vibe. It was a completely different kind of show and that`s why it didn`t gel.  

And I do hope the Lady gets a character shift and soon. No idea if Elizabeth Blackmore has any strengths as an actress but I already know it`s not: antagonist, tortured or love interest. So far, on SPN we have "antagonist". Sigh. 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

I don't really have an issue with the surviving Men of Letters coming after the Winchesters. They have been nearly as responsible for the world coming close to ending numerous times as they are responsible for stopping it. To a certain extent I can understand taking them to task. What I question is why they decided to do it now, in the middle of yet another potential apocalypse. Which they knew was happening. What would have been the point of capturing or killing them only for creation to end when Chuck died?

There is no sense to their plan really. 

Quote

We've been watching you, Sam. What you've done, the damage you've caused -- archangels, Leviathans, the Darkness, and now, well -- the old men have decided enough's enough. I mean, let's face it, Sam. You're just a jumped-up hunter playing with things you don't understand and doing more harm than good.

^^^ This is revisionist history really.

The Winchesters  didn't start the archangel war. They were pawns. But they stopped the Apocalypse.
The Winchesters didn't bring the Leviathan into the world but they killed their leader which I guess killed the rest of the Leviathan? I dunno.

Dean was unwittingly the Lock and Key keeping the Darkness out. But once they let her out they resolved to fix it and they did stopping another extinction event. 

If the MoL were really good guys, they should have made themselves visible and helped the Winchesters with solving these problems.

My head!canon is as follows:

The only way it makes sense to me is if this is a EVUL branch of the MoL (EVMOL) and they don't want humanity saved from all that is not understood.

What if the "old men"  have been wanting an "extinction event" which is why they never helped with any of these things. Maybe they've been in invisible bunkers like Magnus, that would actually have saved them from the Darkness (a pocket universe) and they have been waiting for the day they can rebuild the world in a way that suits them.

It would make more sense for the EVMoL to want the Winchesters off the board because the "damage" is the Winchesters actually preventing the world wide catastrophes the EVMoL want.  IMO LadyMcFuckHerself was sold a bill of goods that the Winchesters are the problem but if my head!canon is at all correct then she'll realize this at some point  and end up working with the Winchesters to take down the EMoL.

Edited May 29, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

EVMoL...I like it!  I'm not so sure they're evil, but they're most likely smug as hell.  They've had decades (or centuries) of patting themselves on the back for being the smartest of the smart, while looking down their noses at the hunters who have actually been in the trenches fighting all of these supernatural beings that the MoL were simply writing about.  Even Henry was appalled to learn that John's children were lowly hunters.  It could be really fun to see Sam and Dean bring the Brits down a few pegs.  If only Bobby were around to join them.  I think he'd have enjoyed it.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

EVMoL...I like it!  I'm not so sure they're evil, but they're most likely smug as hell.  They've had decades (or centuries) of patting themselves on the back for being the smartest of the smart, while looking down their noses at the hunters who have actually been in the trenches fighting all of these supernatural beings that the MoL were simply writing about.  Even Henry was appalled to learn that John's children were lowly hunters.  It could be really fun to see Sam and Dean bring the Brits down a few pegs.  If only Bobby were around to join them.  I think he'd have enjoyed it.

You know, I'm not into this being American  vs British just because it's SOOO cliche. I would be fine with them finding out there is an American branch of the MoL that are old skool and stupid. But to me even if they were looking down their noses they still were sitting on their hands knowing the world was on the brink and surely not EVERY last one is that much of a douchebag. I would be fine with it just being American douchebag asshat MoL that were the Evil Empire.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Now that the 'traditional' MoL know about Sam and Dean hanging out in the bunker, does that mean they will lose it as a home?  Although miles vary, I've always really liked that set and would be sad to see it go.  (This assumes that whatshername didn't kill Sam, nor succeed in bringing him in.)

Well, it could go a couple ways:

• Sam and Dean end up on the run from the MoL. Which would mean they'd need to leave the bunker...or should mean they leave the bunker anyway. (Remember how angels and demons were hunting for them in S5, but couldn't find them because of the warding Cass put on their ribs? And, yet not one demon or angel thought they should go stake out Bobby's house and just wait for them to show up?) But doesn't automatically mean they'd stop using the bunker; the new MoL could still work out of the bunker and it be used from time to time. I would expect Sam and Dean to reclaim the bunker after they dealt with the MoL problem though
• They "explain" things to the satisfaction of the MoL and kinda team up with them. Which means they would get to stay and get some roommates or guests from time to time. 

I don't know. I've never been too keen on the bunker--I do acknowledge it is a beautiful piece of artwork, though--so I'm cool either way. I've come to accept it is part of the show even if I do still imagine various ways it could get destroyed. ;)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

What if the "old men"  have been wanting an "extinction event" which is why they never helped with any of these things. Maybe they've been in invisible bunkers like Magnus, that would actually have saved them from the Darkness (a pocket universe)

I don`t think any part of creation would have survived in the Finale. And magic and everything that is created from magic, like invisible places and pocket universes, is still just a part of creation. So if the MOL or some evil part wanted that, they must have been blindingly stupid. Nothing means nothing. 

Quote

 You know, I'm not into this being American  vs British just because it's SOOO cliche.

It appears to be a rather direct rip-off of the Watcher`s council. Right down to the Brit part. Well, I`m kinda used to the fact that everything of note happens in the US, even worldwide events and the rest of the world is either not mentioned at all or only in passing and if the world is saved it comes from the US also. It`s kinda the prerogative of the country making the majority of movie and TV entertainment. At least us Europeans get to occasionally provide the antagonists. I think the other continents fare even worse.

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know, I'm not into this being American  vs British just because it's SOOO cliche. I would be fine with them finding out there is an American branch of the MoL that are old skool and stupid. But to me even if they were looking down their noses they still were sitting on their hands knowing the world was on the brink and surely not EVERY last one is that much of a douchebag. I would be fine with it just being American douchebag asshat MoL that were the Evil Empire.

It might not be American vs British, though. There's supposed to be MoL all over the world. Granted, Lady WhatsHerName is from the British office, but perhaps she represents a larger world-wide council or something? Perhaps there is another MoL office in the US? It is a bit of a retcon, but hey, what isn't a retcon these days?

[Omegamom]

A Serbo-Croatian MOL chapter...Nigerian...North Korean...

Yeah, the rest of the world doesn't really exist.  I remember watching Crowley and Dick dickering (heh!) over "the fate of the world", which consisted solely of North America.  I kept thinking, damn, Leviathans, you should be looking at China and India for your food sources, lots of people there!

[Wynne88]

Quote

What if the "old men"  have been wanting an "extinction event" . . .

 I hope not.  We've already seen that story played out with angels and demons.  I'm fine with them being anti-Winchester, but I hope the conflict is for much more personal reasons rather than another potentially huge disaster that affects the world.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think any part of creation would have survived in the Finale. And magic and everything that is created from magic, like invisible places and pocket universes, is still just a part of creation. So if the MOL or some evil part wanted that, they must have been blindingly stupid. Nothing means nothing.

I don't think the MoL knew this would be end of creation nor that EVERYTHING would cease to exist. It seemed to me only Chuck, Amara, Sam, Dean, Cas, Lucifer, Metatron, Rowena and Crowley knew that the Darkness was God's sister and that God was dying. Unless somehow one of them got their hands on God's autobiography. IMO they just knew the Darkness was a thing that would destroy humanity but not because God was dying. IMO to them it was just a standard ole sun dying. If the EVMoL, have a way to power the Earth, without the sun, humanity can survive.

Edited May 29, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

  I don't think the MoL knew this would be end of creation nor that EVERYTHING would cease to exist. 

Then that would have been a stupid risk to take. But I do not believe they are really anything god-like powerful. And they couldn`t have kept the Earth going without the sun. IMO they are gonna be a souped-up Henriksen with more knowledge about the Supernatural. Also, since they are British, they will be displayed as pretentious.

In the end, the American MOL branch got taken out by one demon. The Winchesters should have no problem with this branch. From what I`ve seen so far, it seems like a lackluster villain for an entire Season. Well, hopefully the MOTW eps will be a lot better than this year. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then that would have been a stupid risk to take. But I do not believe they are really anything god-like powerful. And they couldn`t have kept the Earth going without the sun. IMO they are gonna be a souped-up Henriksen with more knowledge about the Supernatural. Also, since they are British, they will be displayed as pretentious.

Why would they have god-like powers? They could have science on their side by now. Maybe they discovered a power source that would be enough to sustain humanity. Maybe they already knew about 1 soul = 100 suns. Who knows!  Just thinky thoughts.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Maybe they discovered a power source that would be enough to sustain humanity. Maybe they already knew about 1 soul = 100 suns. 

The first would IMO go too much into the science fiction area - even technological civilisations in Star Trek can`t pull that off as far as I can remember - and the second would go in the direction I think they want to go away from. Being a super-big-player on the board who can harvest and harness souls to power Earth. That is pretty close to God again.

To me, the idea with this MOL stuff is to scale it way back. Since they rather directly ripped off the Shadow War solution from Babylon 5 in this Finale, the stories following that were smaller in scale, more political, more personal, more wrap-up. I see the same set-up here. Which does make the MOL small fries in comparism who don`t effect the world at large and just have a small-minded, petty agenda. But depending on the resources, they could still be a thorn in the side of the Winchesters.

As for their agenda and the set-up making sense, why did they finally get involved now, why didn`t they ever help before if they have all that knowledge etc, is IMO not gonna be explained all that much. Their motivation will be that they are full of themselves, pretentious and self-righteous.

Each Stargate show had the heroes pretty much fucking up shit in the galaxy, then spending lots of time trying to fix it. And then there would be the episode where some heretofore neverseen people put them on trial for fucking up shit in the galaxy in the first place. I considered those the "Strawman Trial" episodes. This looks to be the same here, just for longer than an episode.  

Edited May 29, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The first would IMO go too much into the science fiction area - even technological civilisations in Star Trek can`t pull that off as far as I can remember - and the second would go in the direction I think they want to go away from. Being a super-big-player on the board who can harvest and harness souls to power Earth. That is pretty close to God again.

They've already used science fiction with time travel, alternate futures, alternate universes (French Mistake), pocket universes with soul eaters and food additives that control humans. I don't think the idea that one human soul = 100 suns was introduced just as a way to kill Amara. Souls were already in play as a power source in the war against Raphael.

Heck, maybe the EVMoL aren't even evil. Maybe someone thinks they are solving the world energy crisis with the power of human souls vs world domination.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't think the idea that one human soul = 100 suns was introduced just as a way to kill Amara.

I do honestly. Since they did already introduce souls as a power source in general, it made for a good tie-in. But I saw that particular thing as just a one-episode solution. Will the British MOL or even just certain members of it go for supernatural power and powerful objects? I`d say it`s likely but not any global plot or anything.   

[ZennyKenny]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that since Dabb is now showrunner, he plans to "sneakily" bring in the show he was actually meant to showrun back in Season 9. Which would have been the Bloodlines spin-off had it gotten through. Posh people pulling the strings in the background.

Oh God no! I honestly don't think I could handle the show anymore if the entire show took on the "Bloodlines" feel. :(

[MysteryGuest]

I'm going to assume there will be another big bad besides the MoL.  I suppose they could drag that out for an entire season, but I would hope not.  There has to be a reason that we see Lady Toni's son.  I'm assuming it's to make her vulnerable, and may be a way to get her to change her allegiance from the MoL to the Winchesters, as the season progresses.  I hope the writers are hard at work trying to come up with some good story ideas.

[SueB]

Another vote here for EVMoL as their nickname.

Personally I think that there's someone who IS Evil but Lady Toni is going to turn around and help the boys before it's all over.

And yes, I think their residence in the MoL is at risk.  Hopefully they'll get it back by the end of season 12.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Each Stargate show had the heroes pretty much fucking up shit in the galaxy, then spending lots of time trying to fix it. And then there would be the episode where some heretofore neverseen people put them on trial for fucking up shit in the galaxy in the first place. I considered those the "Strawman Trial" episodes. This looks to be the same here, just for longer than an episode.

Hee.

"You know, you blow up one sun, and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water."

And likely only on that show would the blowing up the sun incident actually have been a good thing that saved shit. It may not have always been the best, but I loved that show. And there were moments of brilliance, too. (It actually reminds me of Supernatural in that regard.)

That said, I hope this show doesn't go the "Strawman Trial" route for too long, because since we know the truth, it'll become tedious quickly, because the British MOL will just seem clueless and annoying.

[shang yiet]

Lame Amara arc culminating with a blah finale. Who knew Amara could be defeated with a Yellow Crayon speech? Now if Chuck who was so impressed by Sam and Dean's brotherhood in Swan Song had just one talk with Amara, she might have been convinced earlier. Still, this marks the second time the love between Sam and Dean has saved the world so yay!

Dean melted my winchesty heart when he said 'Sam and I had more than our share of fights but he needs me, I need him'. So take that all those fans who think Sam and Dean's brotherhood is poison just because sometimes they fight and argue. God and Amara don't think so.

Strong beautiful full of soul Sam was the unsung hero of this episode for me.I like him taking charge to be the leader and getting things done when everyone else is freaking out, drinking or being passive and helpless. Even God had to lean on him. And where is his reward and thanks? Twice he sacrificed for the world but got none of the glory, only the blame. Still he keeps on fighting for his brother and the world. He better get the chance to meet Mary.

Sam melted my heart when he had to again let his brother go. His face when the sun lit up, knowing the world was saved but Dean was dead.

And Cas amused me when he wasted no time taking up his guardianship duties of Sam.

Edited May 30, 2016 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

o take that all those fans who think Sam and Dean's brotherhood is poison just because sometimes they fight and argue. God and Amara don't think so.

 

Ehhh...I'm not so sure God and Amara are the poster children for healthy sibling relationships. 

There's fighting and hanging up the phone on each other and maybe even a bit of fisticuffs and then there is literally trying to kill each other and taking humanity down along with them, one sibling putting the other in solitary for a billion years and then putting a Mark on the child(nephew) of aforementioned sibling resulting in nephew's corruption and/or accentuation of worst traits who starts making demons and then ....

.... I see your point. 

[Locutus]

So basically, the Vorlons and Shadows have left the galaxy.....

[KirkB]

So the universe is actually in pretty good shape, all thing considered.

Heaven is intact and most of the angels are, as far as we know, doing fine and were actually working together for a change.

Hell is also intact and while Crowley has lost the respect of his demons and may lose his throne in the future he is still king for the moment.

Rowena survived, which means she still has a shot at her mega coven. 

Cas is, presumably, free of Lucifer, and oh yeah, Lucifer may be dead (or he may be back in the cage, or even loose). This one is unclear.

The world, or rather all of creation this time, didn't end.

God and Amara have gone on a road trip.

And finally, one of the Winchesters is lost and the other one is facing a potential life and death situation. 

It wouldn't be a season finale without that last one.

Edited May 30, 2016 by KirkB
Spelling and grammar

[7kstar]

9 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Dean melted my winchesty heart when he said 'Sam and I had more than our share of fights but he needs me, I need him'.

This is the reason I love both brothers.  They may argue but they know deep down when the shit hits the fan, they need each other.

9 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Sam melted my heart when he had to again let his brother go. His face when the sun lit up, knowing the world was saved but Dean was dead.

And Cas amused me when he wasted no time taking up his guardianship duties of Sam.

Talk about bad timing.  Sam needed some time to deal with all of that.  After everything Sam has just faced, I don't think a little gun is going to matter in that moment.  I mean when your trying to figure out how to save a sun, would you be afraid of a little gun pointing at you?  In that moment you have forgotten how that felt, and I bet Sam thought I can take her before she really hurts me.  lol

Edited May 30, 2016 by 7kstar

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Ehhh...I'm not so sure God and Amara are the poster children for healthy sibling relationships. 

Agreed. And they are still just characters in the show, just because they endorse something doesn`t mean I have to consider it a successful sales pitch. I liked the peaceful ending with Amara and Chuck because I was happy for Amara. Chuck enjoyed himself for the last billions of years whereas Amara was imprisoned in solitary so I wanted something nice for her. He just kinda was along for the ride. 

But overall this show just doesn`t have a good track record in writing relationships I can root for. Or it`s a case of having very different definitions of what makes a relationship root-able.

Quote

So basically, the Vorlons and Shadows have left the galaxy.....

Short of a parental Lorien-figure for them, it was pretty much the same conclusion. Right down to tasking others with your previous duties. Still find it weird that God didn`t give them some godlike powers along with the task. I mean, I get why it didn`t happen in the context of the show but at the very least the Winchesters are still mortal (nominally). So when they die, Earth is fucked?

[DittyDotDot]

Not sure that's a real worry, though. It's not like the Winchesters are ever going to die! ;)

[sarthaz]

10 hours ago, Locutus said:

So basically, the Vorlons and Shadows have left the galaxy.....

This is exactly what I was thinking when Dean was speechifying with God and Amara.  I was really hoping they'd go this route, but take it a step further, and take all the fucking angels and demons with them.  If we have to see another scene in Heaven's boardroom or Hell's warehouse ... ugh!  Find some loophole to keep Cas and Crowley ... or don't.  I'd miss them, but it'd be worth it to clear this verse of all the monotonous angel/demon garbage.  "It's over because WE decide it's over!"

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 3:06 PM, catrox14 said:

Upon rewatch I think Amara sent Dean back to the night Mary was killed. I can see a scenario where Dean will be faced with the ultimate test of his not fucking with the Natural Order again. If the Natural Order was for Mary to die that night..with Dean knowing all that has happened, what will he do

Catrox you are killing me. That would be epic. But could the writers pull it off? With a satisfying conclusion? That's actually the best idea I have read so far on what the Mary storyline would be.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 3:18 PM, SueB said:

I see nothing but evidence that it was Dean who turned Amara around and Dean who stopped the slow slide into universe oblivion.  It was Dean who saw opportunity and changed the direction from dead Amara/Chuck to a reconciled Amara/Chuck.  And it was a MUCH better solution.  Plan B was a good backup plan but still relied on "if's" (i.e. IF both Light and Dark die, the universe survives... it's logical but who said it would be without consequences).  Plan C (Yellow Crayon speech) was a guaranteed status-quo success that Dean recognized and pushed through as a solution.  Cause he's both quick witted and an excellent champion of Team Humanity.  Makes him a Big Damn Hero in my book.  

I love and agree with all of this. Dean was the Hero and Sam was the one that made them get off their butts and think of the plan. Very satisfying ending for me.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND said:

Catrox you are killing me. That would be epic. But could the writers pull it off? With a satisfying conclusion? That's actually the best idea I have read so far on what the Mary storyline would be.

Heh. Well thanks! 

I'm mildly worried that Dabb is going to try to re-set the entire show. I don't know WHY he would do that because it's STUPID (unless he's setting up the exit for the boys along with setting up a spinoff opportunity.. IMO Resurrecting Mary for shock value is pointless, so why do it? 

I mean maybe Dean really does need closure even though I thought he'd made peace about Mary years ago after he saw her in her youth. And after he saw her fighting with John in DSoTM.  I know there have been complaints about Mary being fridged but I truly disagree with that assessment

Jessica was fridged IMO because her death had nothing really to do with Sam's arc other than I guess forcing Sam to find John with Dean. But Sam could have still gone with Dean to find John and just broke off his relationship with Jessica. She didn't have to die at all. That was fridging for Sam's angst.

But Mary's death is a HUGE part of the story. Mary's death wasn't for the boys angst it was part of the entire strategy of the angels. I mean if Azazel doesn't come to collect on the deal, he never bleeds into baby!Sam's mouth. Maybe they alter it that John dies by Mary lives? That John made the deal? What is the point of that?

I understand it opens up a lot of writing opportunities, but I don't want the boys entire sordid/heroic lives changed. I want their fucked up history to remain exactly as it has been.

If they don't want to actually alter the past with Mary's existence then IMO the only way to bring Mary back as a corporeal character is for it be a test for Dean.