S02.E07: Meltdown

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Cole comes face to face with the Witness, the phantom behind the Army of the 12 Monkeys as Cassie's hallucinations undergo a chilling evolution. Making matters worse, the Temporal Facility becomes increasingly dangerous after the malfunctioning time machine begins to tear apart time and space, bringing back deadly visitors from the past.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

[sharkunit42]

Terry Matalas (show creator) posted this on another forum about s2x07:

"This coming Monday - Memorial Day for US folks - has an absolutely huge episode of 12 Monkeys at 9pm on Syfy. Not to be missed. It's the beginning of a chain of events which will drive us right to the finale.

There will be love, death. The beginnings of something beautiful and the start of something horrible. Spread the word. If you or someone you know hasn't caught up? It's time. Let's beat the drum until Monday evening. Tweet. Email. Sing. Scream. Tell the world:

Do. Not. Miss."

So I guess if people haven't caught up, they're likely to be spoilered after Monday if it's as big an episode as he claims! And of course live views are what matter for renewal chances.

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, sharkunit42 said:

And of course live views are what matter for renewal chances.

Is that only Neilson box live views??

[bethy]

"Death"? Oh no. After last week's bro-fest, I'm now in fear for Ramse. Come on, show. Let Kirk Acevedo's character survive to the end of a series for once! 

[sharkunit42]

23 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Is that only Neilson box live views??

I have a horrible feeling it is :-( That said, they do count live views on their website, but you still need a cable login to watch anything past episode 3 of this season.

I'm in the UK and would love to watch the next one live (both for ratings and to avoid being spoiled as I can't watch until the next evening!) but can't think of a way to do it. Before they closed it down to cable logins, I could have proxied in (it's geolocked to US only) to watch, but obviously I don't have a US cable account.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

"Death"? Oh no. After last week's bro-fest, I'm now in fear for Ramse. Come on, show. Let Kirk Acevedo's character survive to the end of a series for once! 

Seriously! 

[sharkunit42]

7 hours ago, bethy said:

"Death"? Oh no. After last week's bro-fest, I'm now in fear for Ramse. Come on, show. Let Kirk Acevedo's character survive to the end of a series for once! 

It's probably part of his CV. "Good at leaving series in emotional circumstances."  "Bargain price as not required for entire series run" etc etc.

Let's hope not!

PS I think I've now found a way to watch it live, because I can't stand the thought of not knowing and having to stay offline all day until I can watch it in the UK that evening!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Sneak peek:

[merylinkid]

Sam yelling "Dad" every 10 minutes got annoying fast.

Did my old eyes deceive me or did the year say "13" something?   oooh boy is that a problem or what?

I am going to have to binge watch this season because I miss so much if I am distracted even a little bit.

[wanderingstar]

Damn, that episode was not good for my blood pressure.

RIP, Dr. Eckland. I had a feeling when they showed him with Jones in bed that he might die in this episode.

Cassie's all messed up, and I am not sure those shots from Jones will help.

Sam's not dead - thank goodness. He can't be the Witness, can' he?

Still a lot to process.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[bethy]

Holy cow. This show.

I was desperately afraid that Ramse wasn't going to survive the night. He did, though at least at first I thought he might be on the path to becoming the Witness. So that's a plus. If Sam's alive, that might work against that theory. Of course, maybe he doesn't know Sam's alive, and eventually, he'll realize that Sam IS alive and that will keep him from destroying the world! Problem solved.

Kind of loved Deacon sending Ramse in to take care of Cassie. He's a practical man. Even when he loves someone. And I think he does love Cassie, even if I don't think that affection is returned. I liked his, "Craters I understand" when Jones finally boiled it down to basic consequences. 

Really sorry to see Eckland go. Though I really liked how he went out. "You did once."

Eckland and Deacon were great together.

Thought Ramse's little head shake when Cole told him to shoot him was funny. But he did what he had to do. I liked the way the relationships among the characters played into that whole set of scenes.

I also liked that Sam is a smart kid. Instead of just being a victim of the kidnapping, he tried to help with his rescue. I like that little actor, and I do hope we get to see more of Sam's story.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Kind of loved Deacon sending Ramse in to take care of Cassie. He's a practical man. Even when he loves someone. And I think he does love Cassie, even if I don't think that affection is returned. 

I liked that too. It was very in character for him.

I loved all the scenes around them trying to shut down the core. Good, character-driven and emotional stuff.

[Chaos Theory]

Doctor Jones isn't allowed any nice things.

The thing about time travel shows is that there is always a chance Ecklind will be back.  This time he might not remember loving Jones.  

Did the writers say "Hey erase a guy from time and lose a kid in time all in one episode."  

Hey wait.  Ramse'a kid is no much the witness.  He is smart enough and knows the layout of the super secret hideout.  So yeah Ramse's son is the Witness.

Amanda Schull was great tonight.    I always liked her but this episode she was exceptionally awesome.  I loved her scenes stuck in the house in the red forest.  

Edited May 31, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

The thing about time travel shows is that there is always a chance Ecklind will be back. 

I will cling to that hope. He lost his true love in Battlestar Galactica too. Enough is enough. 

I hope Sam isn't in medieval times, or, if he is, I hope that they don't do a major detour there. Heroes did that, and that's when I quit the show.

When I thought Sam died, I thought to myself, "He who lives is born by the sword time travel, dies by the sword time travel."

So, did the last 2 soldiers go back to 1959, or did they get killed by the grenade? 
And did the writers not know that 1959 was before the Civil Rights Movement and integration?

Best parts: 

• The music that played when Cassie and Cole were talking.
• Deacon telling Eckland as he accepted the gun, "Don't worry. I'll tell all your hippie friends that you fought them off with flowers and rainbows."

Edited May 31, 2016 by shapeshifter

[belladonna77]

Sam had to have been picked up by the Witness.  So he could be the Witness if the Witness is able to avoid paradoxes?

[belladonna77]

Are we supposed to believe that Deacon and Cassie are in a relationship?  It's telling that the Witness assumed Aaron and Cole's forms, but not Deacon. 

[wanderingstar]

I thought that we were supposed to assume that Cassie and Deacon got close during her 8 months in the future, but I don't know that we're supposed to infer they are in a romantic relationship, though I could be wrong. We still haven't really gotten any info on what Cassie went through when she was in the future for those 8 months.

From EW.com: 12 Monkeys boss on that heartbreaking double loss (includes some vague spoilers for upcoming episodes)

[thuganomics85]

Totally think Sam is going to end up being The Witness now.  Has to be a reason for him stilling being alive, but lost in time and away from Ramse. Either way, I wonder who it was that offered him his or her hand at the end?

Oh, Eckland.  I will miss him and Michael Hogan's presence.  Especially after his scenes with Deacon, which were cracking me up.  Deacon's becoming one of those characters where you can pair him with anyone, and it works.  Then again, I think the entire cast might be like that.  Almost all the pairings on this show end up being fun.

Knew Cassie was being controlled by The Witness, but despite Jones telling her it wasn't her fault, I'm sure she'll still blame herself for everything that happened.  Amanda Schull was great in this one.  And I'm certainly not going to complain if they decide to have her punch a few more training bags, in her workout outfits.  Cassie looks fit!

Cole making Ramse shoot him to snap Cassie free from The Witness was well done and totally in character.  Cole in general, is pretty open about putting himself in harms way anyway, but he would totally take a bullet for Cassie.  Their bond is that strong.

Have no idea where this will go now, but I'm looking forward to it!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One of the best things about this episode was the theme of what people were willing to do for others. Eklund was willing to sacrifice himself to save Cat. Deacon was willing to sacrifice Cassie to save everyone, but he couldn't kill her himself. Cole was willing to let (okay, order) Ramse to shoot him in order to get Cassie back from the clutches of the Messenger. Ramse was not willing to continue with the mission once Sam disappeared.

I think that Cassie and Deacon got close during her eight months there, but I don't see any evidence of a romantic relationship between them. I see Deacon acting like a big brother to her, worried about her safety. I see Cassie trusting him without question. But I don't see either of them acting like there's any sort of boyfriend/girlfriend relationship between them. I think that Deacon became what Cole used to be to her (but in a platonic sense) - someone willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goal.

On the one hand, I get that Ramse is devastated by losing Sam. But on the other hand, that doesn't mean he's gone. He got sucked out of the room by something from the machine's core, which made me believe he got sent somewhere (even before we saw him in the Red Forest). I can't believe Ramse would completely give up hope of Sam being in some other time. But even if he gave up all hope, now he thinks it's fine for the world to end and he just doesn't care what happens now?

RIP Eklund - hope we see you in future episodes, whether it's flashbacks or someone getting sent back to a time when you were still alive!

[bethy]

Any ideas on why Jones reacted the way she did to Sam's model of the facility? My close-captioning actually said "[snarls]." Was it really a snarl? Was it just grief that Sam was gone?

[oakville]

I have trouble following the plot on this show, but I enjoy the acting of all the characters.

[sharkunit42]

What a great episode!  I'm so glad I got to watch it live for the first time ever, albeit with bad buffering, but hey.

Loved the emotion in this episode - I've felt it's been missing a bit in some previous episodes, but this one really brought it to the fore again.

Some of the plot developments (but not all) were a little clichéd, but there were still plenty of surprises and that's why I love the show. Sad about Ecklund, but it's an old trope about happiness and people dying on TV so I was not that surprised!

Some thoughts not mentioned above:

- The time marker thing after Sam's jump flipped about but did not stop on any one time. Could this mean he is in "all" times?

- I thought he might be The Witness, and I guess he still might be, but if he was then surely he would have reacted to the elements of himself when he was being kidnapped? Unless it's only physical things that react, not metaphysical (or whatever!)

- We still don't know who lived in that house from 1957-1959 as written on the wall a few weeks ago. Maybe Sam? Perhaps that's where he is.. in fact, maybe the house is where the Raritan base now is due to Progress. (total speculation, probably completely wrong!!)

I was live tweeting, and the actor who plays Sam kept liking my tweets, even whilst he was vanished. It was, uh, just a bit freaky :D I thought maybe he'd been eaten by the Internet!  Live tweeting is a lot of fun, nearly all the cast/writers/crew take part and a #12Monkeys in your tweet is apparently roughly the equivalent of 50 viewers to Nielson if it's in a window +/- 3 hours of the show.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, sharkunit42 said:

a #12Monkeys in your tweet is apparently roughly the equivalent of 50 viewers to Nielson if it's in a window +/- 3 hours of the show.

As counted by the network? Or by Neilson? Or...?

[MissLucas]

Well played show, well played. Deacon and Eckland (RIP) were great together and I was impressed how fast Deacon caught up with things. I fully expected lots of mindless yelling when the guys from 1959 showed up but Deacon immediately realized who or rather from where (when? damn this show) they must be.

Really great episode - everybody shined. Though when Ramse pulled his 'he was my boy' I would have liked Doctor Jones to have answered 'He was your boy and my girl had to die for him'. Yeah, I might be a tad resentful.

Sam was transported back to 1090 - good old medieval times which makes you immediately go 'plague' and 'plague doctor'. But the plague hit Europe later and the plague doctor costume dates back to the 17th century. So I have my doubts about Sam being the Witness. On the other hand he's the one person on the show who has motivation to think that time sucks and needs to be done away. He is aware of what his Dad did for him and that sort of knowledge could drive you over the edge. I would really like to know who was there with him at the end.

[sharkunit42]

13 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

As counted by the network? Or by Neilson? Or...?

Both! Well, by Nielson at least, and I have heard from several very credible sources (including Mr Matalas) that yes, they ARE considering tweets.

Have a read here: http://www.nielsensocial.com/product/nielsen-twitter-tv-ratings/

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

This show is an absolute experience, every week.  It also raises the stakes and mystery levels each new episode as well.

I'm not sure there was every any real doubt about it, but any lingering questions about the Cole/Cassie pairing were pretty much erased tonight (for me).

I didn't think I could ever like Deacon, but TS has made me a believer.  Very telling moment when he told Ramse that he had to stop 'Cassie', because neither himself or Cole could do it.  And I agree with comments above, his relationship with Cassie is a platonic one.  I think its obvious when they've never shown the two in an unmistakable intimate setting or embrace.  There would have been an on-screen kiss by now, if it was more.

So, The Witness is both a 'person' AND a mind-control entity??  Damn.  That is a true multi-tasking antagonist.

Very interested in where they take Sam's story, now that he's whenever he is.  I don't, for a second, think we've seen the last of Ramse.

Goodbye, Dr Eckland.  May you RIP with your hippy friends, slinging flowers and rainbows.

Jones' reaction to Ramse walking out and looking at Sam's model... reminds me a bit of a show like Dr Who, and now we'll have two feuding 'Time Lords' [Jones vs The Witness].  And that would make Cole & Cassie as Jones' Companions.  *smirk*    

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[FurryFury]

I'm just not feeling this season, which sucks because I LOVED s1. The only scene that 100% worked for me was Cole making Ramse shoot him to get through to Cassie. Otherwise... meh. I think the show was way more grounded in s1, and moving the narrative center to the future was a mistake, as well as the murky "Possessed Cassie" plot (which, granted, was set up by s1). Also, don't give a damn about Sam. And killing off Saul Tigh without giving him anything to do? Really? What was the point of this character? I'm just disappointed.

Still liking Deacon, however. At this point, he is the only improvement over s1 for me.

[gibasi]

Thank you, FurryFury!  I thought I was alone in my disappointment with this season.  I absolutely agree with everything you said, including Deacon.  I don't like this magic s Supernatural crap at all.    I still like the characters but the plot line and the direction they've taken is not working for me.

[kat165]

I've enjoyed the different time travel trips they've taken in pursuit of the primaries and the 6 of the 12 assasins. I 've also enjoyed Jennifer more this season & really liked the Cassie/Jennifer pairing. I wasn not familiar with Saul Tighe before this show, but liked him here and was bummed that they killed him off without having really given him much to do beforehand. Him and Deacon were awesome together.

[Hanahope]

I was really annoyed at Cassie this episode.  Oh, she kept having "hallucinations" and thought it was all in her head.  Uh, your "hallucination" caused you to wake up in the core room and then you find out there's a problem with the time travel machine's "core", maybe you should think "oh, maybe its not just in my mind, and I need to tell someone and do something".  She knew what was happening to her wasn't right and yet she didn't make someone watch her all the time, or lock her a room while the crisis was being solved.  She should blame herself.  She should have told someone immediately about being forced to drink the tea and how it completely messed up her mind.  It might have prevented a lot of problems.

The one reason I don't think Sam is the Witness is because the Witness seems to want to keep Cassie safe(ish) and alive.  I don't think Sam would care that much about her, he barely knows her, and she certainly had nothing to do with Ramse meeting Sam's mom, and hardly anything at all to do with Ramse directly.

[dirtydi]

I still watch, but prefer season 1. to this season.  Family and friends have said the same to me.  All, but one (my mother) stopped watching this season.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I'm enjoying this season as much as the first one, maybe even a little more so at times.  Stakes are a lot higher than just hinted at in S1.

I've taken what we've seen so far as S1 was the 'table setter' and S2 is working into the 'meat & potatoes' of the story.  I am personally glad they've made it much more than just the virus.  In fact, the virus is almost just a trifle more than a subplot side-story now with what is known and have seen happen so far in this second season.

I'm hoping beyond hope that a third season can be eeked out and that season will be the 'dessert' & can/will put the finishing touches on a fine-dining experience.

[dargosmydaddy]

I loved Cole's face when he saw the messed up guy with his intestines hanging out and Jones was all like, "Yeah, he was the one we tested things out on before you."

On 5/31/2016 at 1:49 PM, sharkunit42 said:

- The time marker thing after Sam's jump flipped about but did not stop on any one time. Could this mean he is in "all" times?

 

On 5/31/2016 at 3:15 PM, MissLucas said:

Sam was transported back to 1090 -

See, I saw it like Sharkunit42-- the year counter was all screwy. I can't swear to it without a rewatch, but I thought it was spitting up random years at one point, not just clicking backwards. If Sam was supposed to be in 1090-- or any specific year-- why wouldn't it have clearly said that, like it does whenever we're following Cassie or Cole or anyone else? To me, it looked like he was in red forest world, which may be timeless.

15 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

 

I'm enjoying this season as much as the first one, maybe even a little more so at times. 

 

This! I think season two is a little different for me because I got to marathon most of season one while I'm watching season two week to week, but it's been very enjoyable, and certain episodes (like this one) have been spectacular. Bring on season three!

On 6/3/2016 at 10:22 AM, kat165 said:

I wasn not familiar with Saul Tighe before this show

The actor's name is Michael Hogan. Saul Tigh was the character he played on Battlestar Galactica. I'll miss Eklund, but I liked the purpose he played, and his last scene was great.

Edited June 4, 2016 by dargosmydaddy

[FurryFury]

So... what was the purpose he played? Because I'm not seeing any. His relationship with Jones didn't feel authentic at all, and I wanted to like it because I love Jones. The idea wasn't bad, but the realization? Nope.

I wonder if some of my issues with s2 are due to a showrunner change (or, rather, taking that female showrunner that SyFy initially added on top the original show creators off the show). There's just something missing from the show this year, something I grew to love.

Edited June 4, 2016 by FurryFury

[sharkunit42]

4 minutes ago, FurryFury said:

I wonder if some of my issues with s2 are due to a showrunner change (or, rather, taking that female showrunner that SyFy initially added on top the original show creators off the show). There's just something missing from the show this year, something I grew to love.

Some of that could be the change in the relationship dynamic between the main characters. A lot of people have been unhappy about it, because for them it was the core of the show.  However with this episode (and apparently with the next one) that is set to change.

It's definitely a different feel to S1, but I don't love it any the less. I also binge watched S1, so to watch it episode by episode does feel quite different.

[dargosmydaddy]

35 minutes ago, FurryFury said:

So... what was the purpose he played?

To show Jones exactly what it is she's playing with. And I think that to us (the viewers), he was just some random guy that we didn't quite see the point of-- which is basically the way Jones saw him, too. Because their relationship wasn't real in our (Jones') timeline. But it was real to Eklund, and I think in this episode at least, we got to see that full force. He was willing to sacrifice himself for this woman he loved. And she was pretty horrified by that.

Though I do agree, it might have been nice if Hogan got to stick around longer.

[FurryFury]

Quote

 And I think that to us (the viewers), he was just some random guy that we didn't quite see the point of-- which is basically the way Jones saw him, too. Because their relationship wasn't real in our (Jones') timeline. But it was real to Eklund, and I think in this episode at least, we got to see that full force. He was willing to sacrifice himself for this woman he loved. And she was pretty horrified by that.

But that was... so obvious? and generic? it didn't feel like it had a real purpose in the plot. Maybe it will have, but I certainly expected something else. Something more.

[sharkunit42]

21 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

To show Jones exactly what it is she's playing with. And I think that to us (the viewers), he was just some random guy that we didn't quite see the point of-- which is basically the way Jones saw him, too. Because their relationship wasn't real in our (Jones') timeline. But it was real to Eklund, and I think in this episode at least, we got to see that full force. He was willing to sacrifice himself for this woman he loved. And she was pretty horrified by that.

Though I do agree, it might have been nice if Hogan got to stick around longer.

This, completely. He left just as suddenly as he arrived, but unlike her lack of real care over Foster and Spearhead, or the test subjects, this one is likely to hit home more with her even if she didn't reciprocate his feelings. Finally something to make her feel properly guilty, whereas before she never really seemed to be that affected - brief regret, maybe, but not true "what have I done?"  This season she's been starting to feel more and more guilty and I'll bet this is the thing that tips her over the edge and sets up next week's episode presumably (from the previews).

I am hoping he'll make another appearance because it is Time Travel after all!

Edited June 4, 2016 by sharkunit42

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

1 hour ago, dargosmydaddy said:

This! I think season two is a little different for me because I got to marathon most of season one while I'm watching season two week to week, but it's been very enjoyable, and certain episodes (like this one) have been spectacular. Bring on season three!

 

1 hour ago, sharkunit42 said:

It's definitely a different feel to S1, but I don't love it any the less. I also binge watched S1, so to watch it episode by episode does feel quite different.

I'm in this exact same boat - binged S1 and watching S2 week-to-week.

I wouldn't say the viewing experienec feels different to me, exactly, but it certainly does give me time to speculate and think about each episode individually a lot more than I did with S1, where finished an episode and went straight into the next one. 

Even though it would give the storyline/plot a better chance to unravel a bit with more space to cover, I do wish there were closer to 20 eps a season with some shows.   13 episodes total, and then an almost 9.5 month wait from one season's finale to the next's premiere is just flat out unfair.  [/whining]

Edited June 4, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[sharkunit42]

34 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Even though it would give the storyline/plot a better chance to unravel a bit with more space to cover, I do wish there were closer to 20 eps a season with some shows.   13 episodes total, and then an almost 9.5 month wait from one season's finale to the next's premiere is just flat out unfair.  [/whining]

The wait is awful, especially when it was three months further away than we all expected. It's probably responsible for some of the drop in viewers too, especially with a show this complex.

I'm really enjoying being able to speculate week to week. Even if I'd had the opportunity to binge watch S2 in advance like a lot of reviewers have, I would have said no. As so much of the fun of this show is not just thinking about it yourself, but talking to others as well. And anticipating. It's the whole experience! 

I'm really sad there are only six episodes left :-( There had better be more next year. If people love it, they should write to Syfy on their feedback page - right now they STILL aren't sure one way or the other on renewal so anything we can do has a chance of making a difference. Especially live tweeting +/- 3 hours of the live US showings with the #12Monkeys tag. I set up a Twitter account solely for this purpose, basically - and believe me I am not the only one! There's a whole army of us (I have the same name there - anyone feel free to follow me and I'll reciprocate) and the official Nielsen live Twitter rating is increasing massively week on week :-)

Back on episode topic - apparently Titan (as seen on the tall building out the window) is a "place where the witness feels safe".  Interesting!!

[Cthulhudrew]

Cassie possessed by another time traveler- am I the only one that was thinking it might be Sam Beckett?

Echoing the thoughts of those who aren't as into this season. It hasn't quite gelled for me since episode 1 of this season; something has felt very "off." I still watch, because I enjoyed season 1 so much, and like the characters and all the actors, but this season is just becoming too fantastic, I think. I get that they had to move beyond the virus plot somewhat, in order to keep the show going- it just wasn't sustainable in and of itself- but I'm not sure the direction they've chosen to go is a good alternative, at least for me. The first season kept me guessing from episode to episode; it really was very unpredictable, which is saying something in this world of very rote tv writing. This season just doesn't have the same degree of suspense, or even the same immediacy to it. Which is weird, because the stakes are seemingly higher- the destruction of time itself. Yet we aren't really given any sense of how/what or- ironically- when such destruction could happen. It just kind of lingers as long as the plot requires.

Again, though, I love the characters. I really hope that Deacon gets a chance to time travel, but more than that, I hope we get some kind of flashback or Cassie/Deacon storyline that will show us how and why those two have a connection, rather than just chalk it up to "it happened offscreen."

[coppersin]

Rewatching the episode and I noticed something: When Cassie is pulling Sam down the corridor and she's seeing it as the red forest, it's not Sam (or at least not as he's dressed now) but a little kid in a suit. Maybe confirmation of the Witness' age when he was living in the creepy house in '57-'59?