S04.E09: Forever

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think Norma is dead and they'll write it off as suicide, due to the note and the furnace guy only telling her.   I don't think Alex and Dylan will really believe that but they won't have proof so they'll be stuck with it.  Dylan (hopefully) will move away in frustration.  And sadly, I'm afraid Alex might be in jail and powerless to keep an eye on Norman.  Or Norman will disappear him and no one will put it together.  They'll think he hightailed it out of town because the FBI was about to catch him or something.

But, how does that work precisely?  For example, why wouldn't Alex look twice at and sic someone in law enforcement onto Norman?  If Alex has suspicions about his stepson killing his mother, he has suspicions about his stepson killing his mother, and he doesn't stop having efficient police instincts on unrelated matters, just because he's lumped in with criminals.  Romero doesn't take any spotlight off himself behind bars in a DEA investigation (or whatever), by saying "what you really need to be looking at, is my stepson Norman."  Other law enforcement would be duty bound to investigate if he (or anyone) asked them, and Norman does have a documented history of mental illness.  

If Dr. Edwards somehow gets killed dead, Norman's records remain to potentially indict him or at least make people look twice at him.  If Norman's records plus Dr. Edwards gets killed/entirety of Pineview burns down, there's testimony of Dylan, so then Dylan has to be out of the way on a permanent basis.  Plus, Dr. Edwards knows, or damn well should know now, of Norman's enormous Oedipal complex.  "The sheriff couldn't wait to have me, Mother's chivalrous human chastity belt, locked up out of the way so that he could pounce on the nethers of Poor Helpless Momma!" (paraphrase).  Unless Edwards is killed, if he possesses a shred of either (a) follow-through or (b) knowledge of criminal psych, he hears about the "accident", and his "ut-oh, my client is an Oedipal matricidal psycho!" spidey senses, should be twanging worse than a banjo instantaneously.

Overall, while this was a very powerful episode, it was also the point where I started to feel like the wheels were falling off the bus, and I don't mean mental health wise on the parts of the fictional characters.  I mean I feel like the show runners have lost the plot, and are eating their own tails butting up against the need to have us bring Norma(n) full circle to the events of Psycho, while having simultaneously made people care about Norma to the point where they might very well turn against Norman because Norma has been taken out of the equation by his hand.  Doesn't help that the writers aren't remotely consistent with any internal logic in the presentation of Norman's mental illness either, I feel.  It's like vampires in the same universe being allergic to garlic - but only on every other Tuesday.

Edited May 11, 2016 by queenanne

[tom87]

Norma is such a bad liar especially for someone who does it so often.

[SeenYouWitKieffah]

If Norma is alive, she's still not going to see the truth about Norman. She's going to say it was an accident, or that he was trying to spare her the pain of losing Alex, or some other defensive delusion. I hope she is alive because like many of you, I really want to see her "oh, fuck, what have I wrought" moment

[Guest]

6 hours ago, queenanne said:

But, how does that work precisely?  For example, why wouldn't Alex look twice at and sic someone in law enforcement onto Norman?  If Alex has suspicions about his stepson killing his mother, he has suspicions about his stepson killing his mother, and he doesn't stop having efficient police instincts on unrelated matters, just because he's lumped in with criminals.  Romero doesn't take any spotlight off himself behind bars in a DEA investigation (or whatever), by saying "what you really need to be looking at, is my stepson Norman."  Other law enforcement would be duty bound to investigate if he (or anyone) asked them, and Norman does have a documented history of mental illness.  

Alex could be sure Norman did it but if there is no physical evidence he can tell all the law enforcement people he wants and they can't convict Norman.  Maybe Norman will keep his nose clean, maybe do that 10-20 year stint in Pineview, then come out and resume killing.  All those law enforcement people will have long forgotten him.  Probably Dylan, too.  Just one way it could work.  

Or Norman kills Alex and the town thinks he ran.  And Dylan moves to Washington, never to check on Norman again.  

The more I think about it the more I wonder if next season will be a flash forward, with Dylan, Alex and Dr. Edwards out of the picture.  

[Garden Wafers]

57 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And Dylan moves to Washington, never to check on Norman again.  

If this scenario were to play out, I'd find Dylan to be just as complicit as Norma when it comes to dealing with Norman - if not a little bit worse, actually. He knows his brother has exhibited violent tendencies and he strongly suspects that Norman killed Emma's mother; and it's not like he's the lone voice shouting in the wind. Romero approached him about trying to get Norman under control. So for him to hug his brother, tell Norman to check himself back into Pineview, and then dust his hands of the whole matter - I'd find that very hard to excuse. Don't get me wrong, part of me wants Dylan and Emma to ride off into the sunset together; but I'd lose a lot of respect for him if that was the case. 

[ganesh]

There's only so much Dylan can do though. It's not really his family, as he pointed out. Norma and Norman were a thing before he came on the scene. He tried. He's out. It's the same thing over and over. Norma makes excuses for Norman, lashes out a Dylan, insults him. There's only so much until "hey, this is your problem."

It fits with the theme of the show. Norma could have gotten help from Dylan, she tried, but she just goes into lockdown if there's even a remote criticism of Norman. Now Dylan's gone (I hope), and she broke it off with Alex. The show started with just them, and now it ends with just them

The only wrench in that is I am worried Dylan is going to try to get to the bottom of Emma's mother's murder and end up dead himself. 

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, Garden Wafers said:

If this scenario were to play out, I'd find Dylan to be just as complicit as Norma when it comes to dealing with Norman - if not a little bit worse, actually. He knows his brother has exhibited violent tendencies and he strongly suspects that Norman killed Emma's mother; and it's not like he's the lone voice shouting in the wind. Romero approached him about trying to get Norman under control. So for him to hug his brother, tell Norman to check himself back into Pineview, and then dust his hands of the whole matter - I'd find that very hard to excuse. Don't get me wrong, part of me wants Dylan and Emma to ride off into the sunset together; but I'd lose a lot of respect for him if that was the case. 

I think for Dylan this was the moment where he wipes his hands of his family for good and doesn't look back.  Sometimes you have to do that.  I know people who have.  

It is not Dylan's responsiblity to take care of his brother.  He has always been the outsider in the family and he has finally realized he will never be let in so I don't understand why he should be held the least bit responsible for anything Norman does.  

Edited May 11, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[peacheslatour]

Quote

one is an eagle in flight.

Actually it's an owl. Still a bird of prey, though. It was a motif Hitchcock used over and over again in the movie.

[maczero]

15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Why else, may I ask, would she chose the night before his first date to tell him that her brother raped her. To ensure that he'd always be her protector? That's beyond messed up. 

IIRC, Norma told Norman that a couple of hours before she was going to meet creepy sex ring guy.  She thought it would be her last few hours on earth.  I looked at it as finally releasing the burden of carrying around that secret for all these years.

As for making Norman her protector, then he's not a very effective one.  Alex is a protector.  Norman at best is a security blanket. 

25 minutes ago, ganesh said:

There's only so much Dylan can do though. It's not really his family, as he pointed out. Norma and Norman were a thing before he came on the scene. He tried. He's out. It's the same thing over and over. Norma makes excuses for Norman, lashes out a Dylan, insults him. There's only so much until "hey, this is your problem."

I think the poster you're responding to is saying that Dylan has a responsibility to society to have Norman committed.  He could still wipe his hands of Norma & Norman emotionally but work with Romero to get Norman committed.

[Dobian]

Assuming that Norma is truly dead, I think the show did it better than the movie.  In the movie, he kills his mother and her boyfriend out of jealousy and spite.  It's murder.  But in BM, it's not murder, it's suicide.  Norman has concluded that the only way he and his mother can be together without anyone else getting in the way is in the afterlife.  So he has the very touching - and creepy - bedtime conversation with her about moving to Oahu, and when he turns the gas on and shuts all the windows and lies down with her, it's out of his own twisted love for her and the idea that they would always be together.  So of course when he wakes up and realizes that only she died and he is now disconnected from Norma, he goes completely over the cliff and becomes his mother because that's the only way that they can be together now.  And of course he will blame Romero because if Alex hadn't interfered, Norman and his mom would still be together.  Now she is lost to him.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Dobian

[Garden Wafers]

1 hour ago, maczero said:

IIRC, Norma told Norman that a couple of hours before she was going to meet creepy sex ring guy.  She thought it would be her last few hours on earth.  I looked at it as finally releasing the burden of carrying around that secret for all these years.

As for making Norman her protector, then he's not a very effective one.  Alex is a protector.  Norman at best is a security blanket. 

I think the poster you're responding to is saying that Dylan has a responsibility to society to have Norman committed.  He could still wipe his hands of Norma & Norman emotionally but work with Romero to get Norman committed.

Right, right. I worded my post badly. I think Dylan absolutely has the right to remove himself from a messed up family situation and try to build a new life for himself. However, if he suspects there's a potential murderer on the loose, I think it behooves him to contact law enforcement and report the concern - especially since Romero would take his concerns seriously.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

But, how does that work precisely?  For example, why wouldn't Alex look twice at and sic someone in law enforcement onto Norman?  

Forget it Jake, this is White Pine Bay.

[ganesh]

I could buy Romero getting Dylan to sign off on committing Norman, but I think that is the extent of his obligations. 

[Snaporaz]

Dylan probably thought that having Norman committed, without Norma being on board with it, would backfire anyway. Norma would find a way to get him out (e.g., annul her marriage, negating Alex's right to do anything regarding Norman).  Dylan realized it was hopeless to appeal to Norma, and his plea to Norman was his final desperate attempt at saving his brother.

3 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Actually it's an owl. Still a bird of prey, though. It was a motif Hitchcock used over and over again in the movie.

And his very next movie was The Birds.  Psycho almost acted as a "coming attractions"!

[Chaos Theory]

I thought the show has done a fairly decent job showing how hard it is to actually get Norman help even if he wants it.  Committing him involuntary is a very difficult thing to do.  No one wants to commit someone just because you say they are crazy or they might be dangerous.  Unless it can be proven that Norman killed Norma which will be difficult if not impossible.  It is just as likely Norma did it or it was an accident.  Hell a case can be made for Romero killing Norma out of jealousy.  

Even if he wants to commit himself how is he going to pay for that swanky place now?  Romero?  It is more then likely he will have to wait for months for a bed to open up in a state hospital.  

Edited May 11, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[mwell345]

The suspense in this show is amazing - how it builds up and up and up.  

I'm on the fence about whether or not Norma is dead.  On one hand, Romero was giving her artifical respiration and CPR - and it would seem to me that he would know if she was breathing or not - and based on his reaction, it would appear she wasn't.  But I'm not sure where the show goes for another season if she's dead.

On any other show, this episode would have more than sufficed for a season finale - the fact that we still have one more episode to go makes me wonder what they have in store for us next week.

Edited May 11, 2016 by mwell345

[ganesh]

They could have Norman committed if Norma is in a coma and then Dylan can gtfo. There's probably no way they can prove the gas leak was from Norman, but Dylan might be able to prove he killed Emma's mother. 

[Chaos Theory]

22 minutes ago, ganesh said:

They could have Norman committed if Norma is in a coma and then Dylan can gtfo. There's probably no way they can prove the gas leak was from Norman, but Dylan might be able to prove he killed Emma's mother. 

But he can't.  Not with any certainty.  It is just as likely Norma did that as well.  Hell he can't even prove Emma's mother is actually dead not with any certainty.  That is the big problem.  No court will commit Norman on what Dylan or Romero can prove.    

[jewel21]

I re-watched the last ten minutes of the episode because the first time I was messing around on my phone... That was the worst CPR I have ever seen. Romero is a cop. Doesn't he know that when you breathe into a victim's mouth, you are to tilt the head and pinch the nose? He was just breathing into Norma's mouth and not pinching the nose and it drove me nuts.

That was the only thing that bothered me. The rest of the episode was amazing. 

[ganesh]

You don't need certainty. Plenty of cases are decided circumstantially. Nothing might come of it, but they'll know what possibly happened. It might be enough to get him re committed. Proving it in court isn't relevant. Dylan is interested largely as closure for Emma. Knowing what Norman is capable of isn't a big revelation to him. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Garden Wafers said:

Right, right. I worded my post badly. I think Dylan absolutely has the right to remove himself from a messed up family situation and try to build a new life for himself. However, if he suspects there's a potential murderer on the loose, I think it behooves him to contact law enforcement and report the concern - especially since Romero would take his concerns seriously.

I'm guessing that's exactly what happens next week.  Dylan and Alex both try to prove Norman did this and that he needs locked up, and they fail.  If they can't prove he's dangerous or if he doesn't choose to go back to a hospital, their hands are tied.  If Edwards is (again) snowed by Norman, he'll claim he's fine to be free.  It's their opinion against his doctor's.  Dylan can leave White Pine Bay in frustration and honestly say he did all he could.  He can't follow Norman around his whole life, hoping to catch him in the act to get him locked up. 

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm guessing that's exactly what happens next week.  Dylan and Alex both try to prove Norman did this and that he needs locked up, and they fail.  If they can't prove he's dangerous or if he doesn't choose to go back to a hospital, their hands are tied.  If Edwards is (again) snowed by Norman, he'll claim he's fine to be free.  It's their opinion against his doctor's.  Dylan can leave White Pine Bay in frustration and honestly say he did all he could.  He can't follow Norman around his whole life, hoping to catch him in the act to get him locked up. 

But why is Edwards such a bad doctor, outside of deus ex machina?  I find this a flaw too, and I don't think it's a flaw just because Norman is so good at talking he talks around the guy.  I have no psych beyond an intro class in college, and haven't been a therapy patient, but - isn't Norman laying basic Psych 101 at Edwards, which he should easily be able to see through?  He's the expert, and much of what Norman has done so far is to spend time psychoanalyzing Norma. Wouldn't any good psychiatrist be consistently looping the narrative away from Norma and back to the patient himself?  

Plus, lest we forget Norman has accused Norma of being a murderess, and the response from the peek of non-Romero law enforcement has been "clearly this kid is crackers, there's not one shred of evidence attaching her to any of these murders."

But Norman will apparently make sure Norma is tied to Audrey, we have since learned, by mysteriously folding Norma's wrapper up into Audrey's suitcase.  

I find it hard to believe that Norman did that in a daze because "his version of Mother" thinks Norma would keep trophies.  It seems to me more like part of Norman was actively thinking he would set up Norma, which is the opposite of any narrative the producers appear to want to be telling right now, because they seem to want us to still feel sorry for misunderstood, misguided woobie Norman.

Wow, you kill off one character I'm not even actively mad about - at least I don't think I'm actively mad, enjoy Farmiga though I did - and all of a sudden, apparently I think the previous clever showrunners are hacks who can't accurately convey anything about transference or split personality.  Ha.

Edited May 12, 2016 by queenanne

[Guest]

I'm not sure Edwards is so much a bad doctor as just a nice one, who really wants to believe the best about Norman.  I don't think there's a test for 'criminally insane' so he's stuck with what he's seen, and he hasn't been shown a violent Norman, just a confused one, with multiple personalities.  I think it takes a lot of strong evidence of someone being a danger to lock a man up against his will. 

I didn't think Norman was framing Norma.  Why would he do that before a murder/suicide?  He wore that bloody robe when he killed Audrey and was just burying the evidence, I thought, while showing us the audience that he now knew it was he himself who did the killing. 

[ganesh]

I don't think Edwards is a bad doctor either. Norman wasn't framing Norma either. I think it was to show us that he's out of control and we're down the final path to Psycho. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Seems to me there are four primary possibilities with the gas

1. It is perceived as a pure accident. Given that we saw Norman close off all those vents, it seems even a superficial investigation would make that seem remote to competent investigators. But then, it is White Pine Bay.

2. Norman was attempting a murder-suicide. This, of course, is what actually happened. Presumably, Alex will suspect this, and try to convince others.

3. Norma was attempting a murder-suicide. Norma left a note for Alex that read very much like a suicide note. Once Alex sees it, he might even be convinced that Norma did it.

4. Romero was attempting to kill Norma and Norman. Possible motives include anger at Norma/Norman, or wanting to cut ties with WPB because he knows the DEA is targeting him.

[Guest]

I kind of wondered if Norman can frame it as a pure suicide, saying Norma went to bed alone and he climbed in her bed later, after she was asleep. 

I wonder too if Norman will have a moment to move some vents around before any investigation starts.  That would make it seem accidental, possibly.  Alex still hadn't even called 911, had he? 

[queenanne]

11 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I didn't think Norman was framing Norma.  Why would he do that before a murder/suicide?  He wore that bloody robe when he killed Audrey and was just burying the evidence, I thought, while showing us the audience that he now knew it was he himself who did the killing. 

But the latter is "what a show runner would do for a cool narrative" instead of anyone's actual even vague criminal psychology, no?  Even if he thinks he's "Mother" why would he fold Norma's robe into Audrey's suitcase?  The entire point, or at least camouflage, of his wish to kill Audrey is that Audrey, unlike Mother, is a crap exemplar of the breed who doesn't deserve a nice kid like Emma.  Why would he want to commingle the artifacts of a crap mother, with his own pure perfect one, even in whatever fugue he goes into?  I should think he wouldn't even want Norma's things touching Audrey's.

My current objection on this point, I admit, stems pretty solely from the fact that it's starting to chap my hide that the show runners clearly and obviously want us to come out of this season and situation continuing to sympathize with Norman and to root for him on some level.  I no longer do, because I no longer think he's acting fully unconsciously.

Edited May 12, 2016 by queenanne

[Guest]

Quote

why would he fold Norma's robe into Audrey's suitcase?

Because it was covered in Audrey's blood because Norman was wearing it when he killed Audrey, is my assumption.  He's covering the last of his tracks before the murder/suicide, I figured.  

I agree they have shown us now Norman is aware he's the killer and is no longer really worthy of all our sympathy.  

[ganesh]

I'm not really seeing a lot of ambiguity here. I think TPTBs have been quite straightforward with the viewers. Norman found the robe and was like "uh oh." He's been very clear saying he was worried about blacking out and something bad happening before. Norman intended to kill himself and Norma because that was the only way they could be together. Romero happened to find them in time. The show isn't a mystery show.

I don't really care what they have to say, but I doubt they even think we think Norma is actually dead. 

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Because it was covered in Audrey's blood because Norman was wearing it when he killed Audrey, is my assumption.  He's covering the last of his tracks before the murder/suicide, I figured.  

I agree they have shown us now Norman is aware he's the killer and is no longer really worthy of all our sympathy.  

But he strangled Audrey with a scarf, there probably wasn't any blood. And we must remember, Norman thinks his mother killed Audrey, so it makes sense that he would conceal all the evidence of his mother's crime.

" Now after the murder, Norman returned as if from a deep sleep. And like a dutiful son, covered up all traces of the crime he was convinced his mother had committed!"

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

But he strangled Audrey with a scarf, there probably wasn't any blood. And we must remember, Norman thinks his mother killed Audrey, so it makes sense that he would conceal all the evidence of his mother's crime.

" Now after the murder, Norman returned as if from a deep sleep. And like a dutiful son, covered up all traces of the crime he was convinced his mother had committed!"

Oh, good point.  I guess the robe was muddy, not bloody.  From dragging her to the pit, probably.  The chunk of hair must've been in the scarf.  I can still see wanting to bury the robe with the other evidence in the suitcase.  

The credits say the show is "based on the characters in the novel".  I personally interpret the scene of Norman in the dirty robe looking crushed in the mirror as him realizing he did this, which also supports why he'd become suicidal.  

[BatmanBeatles]

I think the robe got covered in mud when Norman hid Audrey's body.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

The credits say the show is "based on the characters in the novel".  I personally interpret the scene of Norman in the dirty robe looking crushed in the mirror as him realizing he did this, which also supports why he'd become suicidal.  

Fair point. I was reminded of the movie because of the methodical way Norman went about hiding the evidence. The same way Norman went about cleaning up after he discovered Marion Crane's body in the movie, especially when he was shutting all the vents. It was chilling, how calm he was.

[Guest]

I liked that they got all cinematic for that part.  The Mr. Sandman rendition and the camera looking like it was in the ducts following gas fumes, and then seeing Norman through the grates, as the vents slammed shut.  

If all that plus Alex's grief were for a 'Gotcha! Norma was just ALMOST dead' scene, that might surprise me.   

I also like that Cuse himself does the "previouslies", I believe.  

[raven]

11 hours ago, queenanne said:

the show runners clearly and obviously want us to come out of this season and situation continuing to sympathize with Norman and to root for him on some level. 

I don't get that impression at all.  Norman has been shown to be full of anger - he was angry when he gave his Oedipal-type speech to Dr. Edwards, he was angry with Norma at the dinner table with Romero (instead of crying, for example), he's being shown to be manipulative.  He very methodically and coldly set up the murder/suicide.  I think we are supposed to be more and more apprehensive of him and what he might do.  We used to see at least a little bit of affection from him to Dylan and I don't get that anymore - I think he's playing a role with Dylan (that goodbye, to me, was Norman being slightly confused but not really caring about Dylan leaving).  He's dressing old fashioned; he always did, but maybe it's the way he carries himself now, it seems different, like a costume to me. He's speaking in a careful, sometimes stilted manner, like he's planning everything before saying it (except with the doctor and when he's angry) - he's acting the way he thinks an adult should act.  Freddie Highmore is doing overall great work. 

I don't know anything about how accurate his illness is being shown, or what exactly they're trying to say about it; by what we've been shown, he knows there is something wrong with him that causes blackouts. He was in the hospital and his only two family members get into happy relationships with other people.  There lives are BETTER without him; especially the person who has told him his whole life that they only needed each other.  He may still think that Norma is a murderer - he knows she killed Keith the rapist, so if *whatever* is wrong with him doesn't allow for him to think that he is a murderer, he thinks it's Norma.  He sees Mrs. Decody's items and is thinking it's Norma.   He can't live without her and makes the murder/suicide attempt; it's much easier than trying to face all of their issues (in his mind).

So though I feel badly for S1 Norman, who wanted to be a normal kid but lost that chance, this Norman should be locked away.   I think the show has been expertly constructing things so that we sympathize with Norma.  When Chick told her that Caleb's abuse of her wasn't her fault, she gets this look on her face - you know that no one ever really told her that before.  She's messed up, made horrible decisions with Norman and lots of other things and is at her most frustrating this episode as well as her most heartbreaking; she deserves some happiness and she certainly doesn't deserve to die because of her mistakes.

[queenanne]

6 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Oh, good point.  I guess the robe was muddy, not bloody.  From dragging her to the pit, probably.  The chunk of hair must've been in the scarf.  I can still see wanting to bury the robe with the other evidence in the suitcase.  

The credits say the show is "based on the characters in the novel".  I personally interpret the scene of Norman in the dirty robe looking crushed in the mirror as him realizing he did this, which also supports why he'd become suicidal.  

I've also, however, seen responses from folks indicating that they think Norman becomes Mother when he dons the robe, and that this is why we shouldn't feel angry at him for the furnace stunt, because he puts on the robe and thinks "Aha! Mother killed Audrey and thus it is only humane and just that I kill her, for her own safety, as otherwise she will be discovered and prosecuted as a murderess!"  I could go either way, personally.

12 minutes ago, raven said:

I don't get that impression at all.  Norman has been shown to be full of anger - he was angry when he gave his Oedipal-type speech to Dr. Edwards, he was angry with Norma at the dinner table with Romero (instead of crying, for example), he's being shown to be manipulative.  He very methodically and coldly set up the murder/suicide.  I think we are supposed to be more and more apprehensive of him and what he might do.  We used to see at least a little bit of affection from him to Dylan and I don't get that anymore - I think he's playing a role with Dylan (that goodbye, to me, was Norman being slightly confused but not really caring about Dylan leaving).  He's dressing old fashioned; he always did, but maybe it's the way he carries himself now, it seems different, like a costume to me. He's speaking in a careful, sometimes stilted manner, like he's planning everything before saying it (except with the doctor and when he's angry) - he's acting the way he thinks an adult should act.  Freddie Highmore is doing overall great work. 

I don't know anything about how accurate his illness is being shown, or what exactly they're trying to say about it; by what we've been shown, he knows there is something wrong with him that causes blackouts. He was in the hospital and his only two family members get into happy relationships with other people.  There lives are BETTER without him; especially the person who has told him his whole life that they only needed each other.  He may still think that Norma is a murderer - he knows she killed Keith the rapist, so if *whatever* is wrong with him doesn't allow for him to think that he is a murderer, he thinks it's Norma.  He sees Mrs. Decody's items and is thinking it's Norma.   He can't live without her and makes the murder/suicide attempt; it's much easier than trying to face all of their issues (in his mind).

So though I feel badly for S1 Norman, who wanted to be a normal kid but lost that chance, this Norman should be locked away.   I think the show has been expertly constructing things so that we sympathize with Norma.  When Chick told her that Caleb's abuse of her wasn't her fault, she gets this look on her face - you know that no one ever really told her that before.  She's messed up, made horrible decisions with Norman and lots of other things and is at her most frustrating this episode as well as her most heartbreaking; she deserves some happiness and she certainly doesn't deserve to die because of her mistakes.

You might be right.  If the fifth season is Romero (or someone) trying to track and pin down Norman as a murderer, then I guess we'll know.  I guess I was making bad mental leaps and assumptions just based on the fact they expect us to watch a whole fifth season of Norman on the loose; that they wanted us to watch him sympathetic.  Someone else could become the protagonist and Norman the antagonist.  (For the record, I should note I don't really care precisely if they are "true to a particular type of mental diagnosis", as that I care that "the show should know what internal rules of consistency and logic they want Norman to hew to, and he should apply it consistently across the board; not just take mental illness as a license for him to do anything and everything".)  But, that's not wholly satisfying either, because for four seasons they wanted me to think Norman had the capacity to be nice and to be redeemable, and wrote and instructed Freddie to act him thusly; but that's been the show's overall Achilles heel and storytelling pit of quicksand from the start - we know how he ends up, at least insofar that it's "a bad end", but still have to be persuaded to stay interested and to watch.

[raven]

22 minutes ago, queenanne said:

But, that's not wholly satisfying either, because for four seasons they wanted me to think Norman had the capacity to be nice and to be redeemable, and wrote and instructed Freddie to act him thusly; but that's been the show's overall Achilles heel and storytelling pit of quicksand from the start - we know how he ends up, at least insofar that it's "a bad end", but still have to be persuaded to stay interested and to watch.

I have no idea where they could be going, because as great as Freddie has been, the genius of this show has been Vera and Vera and Freddie together.  Vera only as Mother wouldn't be half as interesting as Norma.  I can't decide if she's dead or alive right now.  We always knew the show would end in tragedy for them both.  The problem I have is similar to what you're talking about (if I understand what you're saying about being consistent in show world with him) - how much is Norman aware of?  It's not Mother turning on the furnace, closing the vents, etc; it's not Mother being angry in his therapy session - it's Norman.  So nice-kid Norman is breaking (broken?) and Mother is still separate?   I agree with you here, if Norma's gone, what is the story.  I know I'll be around to watch, but I don't know if it'll be as good as what we have.

Edited May 13, 2016 by raven

[Guest]

1 hour ago, raven said:

So though I feel badly for S1 Norman, who wanted to be a normal kid but lost that chance, this Norman should be locked away.   I think the show has been expertly constructing things so that we sympathize with Norma. 

I agree with you on that first part but not the second.  I mean, I don't sympathize much with Norma and haven't for a while.  I don't think she deserved murder but she made him what he is and then ignored all the warnings, and she was just so insufferable when anyone confronted her.  So I'm ok with the character biting it at this juncture.  I think they did a good job making us be ok with it by writing her so stubborn and blind and annoying the last few episodes especially.  

I guess that was my point about them killing Emma and Dylan.  I think they'd at least write them a bit more hate-able first if they were going to do it.  And Alex, too.  It's a dark show, sure, but it's not fun to watch the 'good guys' you're pulling for lose it all to the bad guys.  Killing gray characters like the teacher and Bradley and even Norma is enough tension. 

[queenanne]

43 minutes ago, raven said:

I have no idea where they could be going, because as great as Freddie has been, the genius of this show has been Vera and Vera and Freddie together.  Vera only as Mother wouldn't be half as interesting as Norma.  I can't decide if she's dead or alive right now.  We always knew the show would end in tragedy for them both.  The problem I have is similar to what you're talking about (if I understand what you're saying about being consistent in show world with him) - how much is Norman aware of?  It's not Mother turning on the furnace, closing the vents, etc; it's not Mother being angry in his therapy session - it's Norman.  So nice-kid Norman is breaking (broken?) and Mother is still separate?   I agree with you here, if Norma's gone, what is the story.  I know I'll be around to watch, but I don't know if it'll be as good as what we have.

Yes, you've nailed my problem - I can kinda see what Norman is doing, but he's simultaneously got no qualms about telling Julian he's going to snow Dr. Edwards, so he is cold and calculating.  

I can think of a couple interesting things they could do in fifth season but they'd probably have to be daring to keep it up.  One hopes if they knew how long they wanted the story to last, they were capable of thinking something up ahead of time and writing towards it, rather than leaving fifth season until their hiatus, but I've always been a little nervous about what we'd get from "Lost's Carlton Cuse" as a satisfying ending, I admit it.

[Bebecat]

Poor Alex...he had no idea just how messed up Norma is. And if Norma wakes up, it will only be to deny that Norman ever in his life did anything wrong.

[TattleTeeny]

I think it's pretty fabulous that there are so many various (and mostly plausible within the confines of the show's narrative) ideas floating around in here about what's to come next! I don't think it's an accident; I think it's the result of judicious writing and careful character development. Even though we know the outcome of Psycho, this show has left many open avenues that could still conceivably lead up to that end. It's exciting and refreshing--especially in the horror category (I guess you could call it that, right? Or at least "horror adjacent")! I might be gushing a little here but, you know, it's the little things that keep me going sometimes.

Edited May 13, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Bebecat]

If Norma is dead, it was a pretty anti-climatic killing, Imo. Yeah, the drama with Alex was great, but basically she died in her sleep? Probably making it very hard to even link to Norman? I expected some epic battle between Norma and Norman before one or both died. 

[TattleTeeny]

Hmmm, but if she's dead, Norman would have to

Spoiler

steal her body from the coroner that Alex would presumably call in order to taxidermy her!

Spoiler-barred in the unlikely scenario that someone here has never seen the movie. Could that even be?

Edited May 13, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Bebecat]

Norman did tell Norma they should "leave together"...

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

She's messed up, made horrible decisions with Norman and lots of other things and is at her most frustrating this episode as well as her most heartbreaking; she deserves some happiness and she certainly doesn't deserve to die because of her mistakes.

 

She didn't deserve to die for it but I think Norma's actions in this episode makes it clear that her and Norman's story was always going to end as tragic as it did because of her inability to accept the reality of how damaged and dangerous he was. Now lest this become another circular discussion, let me very clear that I'm not blaming Norma for Norman being mentally ill. However her actions in this episode solidified how far she was willing to go to keep burying her head in the sand with regards to Norman. 

It's clear that Norma knows Norman likely hurt Emma's mother. As Dylan rightly pointed out to her, otherwise why would she keep the earring and then try to pretend it was hers when he asked about it. And instead of listening to reason from both Dylan and Alex, she hits way below the belt with Dylan, mentioning how he was always jealous of Norman. Even if that was true, gee could it be because the only child she ever really cared about was Norman? And then even after Dylan has a moment of vulnerability, breaks down about her never being a mother to him, instead of offering a kind word, trying to comfort him, she only begs him for the earring again, because god forbid anyone finds out Norman killed Emma's mom. And all this while she continues to insist Norman is not dangerous. 

Norma did not make Norman crazy and dangerous but she sure didn't help the situation and maybe that was because of her own many issues and traumas. But the reality is the two of them together was an unhealthy, twisted and creepy co-dependent love that wasn't good for either one and ended in tragedy for both - Norma's death and Norman a permanently murdering fucked up nutjob. 

 

Quote

Norman has been shown to be full of anger - he was angry when he gave his Oedipal-type speech to Dr. Edwards, he was angry with Norma at the dinner table with Romero (instead of crying, for example), he's being shown to be manipulative.  He very methodically and coldly set up the murder/suicide.  I think we are supposed to be more and more apprehensive of him and what he might do.

 

 

  As I said after the episode when Norman got out of the mental hospital, I don't believe Norman exists anymore and damn sure not the Norman we met in Season 1. I think we have been watching the progression of Norman's madness and Mother's slowly taking over. I don't think Mother has fully enveloped him. That, as someone speculated, is likely to come when the reality of Norma being dead and him having to live and survive without her, hits him. However, while Norman used to be more present and Mother only came out when he blacked out, I think Mother is the more present and dominant personality now. That is probably why Norman doesn't really blackout anymore. Yes, as we saw this episode, he actually is taking the meds and so that might be helping but I think it's also because, at this point, Mother and Norman are very, very closely intertwined so he no longer needs to blackout for her to come out.

 

Quote

He sees Mrs. Decody's items and is thinking it's Norma.

I actually did not read the scene that way. I saw it as what I noted above, Mother and Norman are becoming closer and more intertwined and one and so on one level, Norman, whatever is left of him, knows he's not well. And when he was wearing the robe and looking in the mirror, for a moment he was facing the truth of who he is and really seeing himself - that combination of Norman and Mother. That might also have been a catalyst for his murder/suicide plans with Norma.The realization he is not normal and never will be and that he and Norma must always be together no matter what. So what better way than the afterlife where he won't hurt anyone, no one will try and take them away from each other and they can be on a beach in Oahu... It's all very sad and depressing, to be honest but boy are Freddie and Vera awesome and the whole cast to be honest. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Guest]

Quote

 I'm not blaming Norma for Norman being mentally ill. 

I even blame her for that.  Holding your boy's hand while you're being raped and not getting him mental health care after he killed his father pretty much took the spark of crazy in him and fanned it.  And then she kept fanning it his whole life.  

I'm not saying my view is the correct one, just throwing mine on the pile.

[RCharter]

So....I knew fairly early in the episode that someone was going to die (I guessed the furnace....but I think they were really obvious about that foreshadowing) but I didn't know who.  At first I thought it would be Alex's ex-gf, because that ties everything up real neat, and I've been wanting her to end up in that giant hole for a while....then I was scared it was going to be Dylan, and I kept yelling for him to just get in his truck and drive the hell away from that disaster......then I thought it might be Alex and I was scared again.  

So, I came here to check....and thank you all, because I could not have handled that had it come out of the blue.

There were a few things I found interesting

1. What the hell was the point?  Norman was getting everything he wanted...Norma was going to leave Alex, she was open to moving again (which obviously means no more Dr. Edwards, and probably no more pills)  Was he upset that Norma dared to even care about Alex?  Was he upset that someone had taken his mother away if even for a minute?  Was he angry that Norma was upset over losing Alex?  He didn't know about the commitment, so it couldn't have been that.

2. How did he survive?  Clearly the plan was a murder suicide, but he was breathing in those fumes just as long as Norma was.  Maybe Norma was breathing deeper because she was sleeping...but still.

3. This was completely premeditated Norman killing.  I don't think we've seen that before.  We've seen Norma as mother killing someone, but never just Norman making the calculated decision to kill

4.  I'll be surprised if Norma survives -- because I think this is a logical time/way to kill her off.  Norman thought they were going to be in heaven together forever, because he needs Norma.  He thought they would die together and he would never have to face life without her.  Now he is a mentally ill young man that has to face life without Norma.....this will surely push him to becoming mother more often as he realizes that he misses Norma....but doesn't HAVE to miss her since mother is always ready for him.

5. Poor Romero is doomed either way.  Either he dies, or he lives a miserable life as he makes Norma into a martyr, and puts her on a pedestal of perfection.  And of course he will blame himself forever

6.  Romero's ex is the worst -- her smug assumption that she could get him to confess because they were lovers was ridiculous......he barely cared and mostly seemed annoyed by her.

7.  I don't think Norman is going to leave....I've never seen Psycho (I know, I know) but I know the general story, and doesn't Norman end up living in that old house while waiting for victims?

[RCharter]

On 5/13/2016 at 9:56 PM, Bebecat said:

Poor Alex...he had no idea just how messed up Norma is. And if Norma wakes up, it will only be to deny that Norman ever in his life did anything wrong.

Yes, the vents all shut themselves, and the caution tape magically ripped itself.  Its like living in that enchanted castle in Beauty and the Beast.  It all sounds very Norma......she is great, but if Alex was related to me I would tell him to run from that hot mess like the roadrunner.

[RCharter]

On 5/11/2016 at 7:44 AM, Garden Wafers said:

If this scenario were to play out, I'd find Dylan to be just as complicit as Norma when it comes to dealing with Norman - if not a little bit worse, actually. He knows his brother has exhibited violent tendencies and he strongly suspects that Norman killed Emma's mother; and it's not like he's the lone voice shouting in the wind. Romero approached him about trying to get Norman under control. So for him to hug his brother, tell Norman to check himself back into Pineview, and then dust his hands of the whole matter - I'd find that very hard to excuse. Don't get me wrong, part of me wants Dylan and Emma to ride off into the sunset together; but I'd lose a lot of respect for him if that was the case. 

Not me.  Dylan doesn't want to hurt Norman/Norma, and he may not realize the extent of Norman's illness.  He knows that SOMETHING probably happened to Emma's mother, but he probably wants to assume that its not murder until he knows for sure.  I know if I had a family member that I loved, or even one I sort of liked, I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt if there was any to be given.  And what exactly is he going to go to Romero with?  There are any number of reasons that a person might leave an earring at someone's house that have nothing to do with murder.  The fact that she left an earring somewhere doesn't really prove anything for a woman that was known for being a rolling stone.  Not to mention that the earring is probably a mass produced piece and Norma says it belongs to her.

No matter how much Dylan wants to escape Norma/Norman, they are still his family, and I can understand his loyalty.....or at the very least him really, really being open to the idea of just thinking this was all a tragic accident.

I don't think that Dylan's intention was to just ride off into the sunset.....if it was, he would have given Norma that earring.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RCharter said:

1. What the hell was the point?  Norman was getting everything he wanted...Norma was going to leave Alex, she was open to moving again (which obviously means no more Dr. Edwards, and probably no more pills)  Was he upset that Norma dared to even care about Alex?  Was he upset that someone had taken his mother away if even for a minute?  Was he angry that Norma was upset over losing Alex?  

In my opinion, the point was that he realized he was murdering women.  Moving to Hawaii wasn't going to solve that.  It was the only solution he saw to achieve not being a murderer and being together with Norma forever.