S05.E17: Her Handsome Hero

[Camera One]

Yeah, Maurice is around in Storybrooke doing nothing.  One of the major crimes of this show is to destroy the relationship between Belle and her father which was core in "Beauty and the Beast" (despite the Writers claiming they are most interested in family relationships).  And this episode did nothing to change that.  

 

The focus on Rumbelle all the time really suggests they have no interest in Belle as a character.  They never had an episode where Belle and Maurice reconciled, or where Maurice accepted Rumple (he just appeared at the wedding).  The weirdo mother Belle is so close to apparently agreed that Belle should be in an arranged marriage without talking to her about it.  The character of Belle is so thinly drawn out.  None of the flashbacks tell us anything about her.  Even this episode revealed very little about her life, her loves, her wants, pre-Rumple.  I suppose "Her Handsome Hero" is at least better than the one where she chooses a rock over Anna.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, Maurice is around in Storybrooke doing nothing.  One of the major crimes of this show is to destroy the relationship between Belle and her father which was core in "Beauty and the Beast" (despite the Writers claiming they are most interested in family relationships).  And this episode did nothing to change that.

 

Belle's relationship with her father is too ambiguous. Sometimes they're fine, other times he's shady and Belle can't stand him. It's strange when he walks her down the aisle to marry Rumple, then is never heard from in Storybrooke again. Belle never talks to him onscreen nor does she ever seem to care about him much. They had all that angst in 2A when he attempted to push her past the town line, but there's been nothing after that. 

 

I wish Belle's mother was in the flashbacks. "Your mother thinks so too" seemed so forced by the writers. I don't know why they cast her only to show her in one scene. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

It would make more sense for Robin to take the baby and for everyone to stay at the Sorcerer's Mansion since Hades specifically couldn't go in there.

 

Yes! Why the hell do they want to all cram into the Charming's small loft when there's a luxurious mansion with dozens of rooms for them to stay in where it's protected by white magic that Hades can't go near? It's like 3B all over again where they enchanted the loft with a protection spell...and then never stayed in the loft after that. These people are idiots.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

They don't know that Hades can't deal with light magic though, so I'm giving them a pass on that...for now.

 

But Hades and Zelena have the same weakness which sort of makes things interesting. I'm sure even she doesn't know about the whole light magic bit. And it doesn't seem like any of them have put 2 and 2 together to explain why Hades was weakened as per what Killian said. 

[Curio]

They don't know that Hades can't deal with light magic though, so I'm giving them a pass on that...for now.

 

Damn it, Liam. You couldn't have one normal conversation with your brother before you left to Heaven and fill him in on the light magic mansion and Hades's relationship with Zelena?

 

I think I'm officially going to take back my wish of wanting Graham to appear in the Underworld to inform Emma about Regina murdering him. If this episode is anything to go by, they'll probably play it just as callously as Rumple blowing off Gaston's death.

 

Belle realizing Rumple killed her fiancé:

Belle: So, you killed Gaston, my fiancé, and never thought to tell me?

Rumple: It was an arranged marriage. I was doing you a favor. 

(10 seconds later)

Belle: Oh, it's okay Rumple. I guess we're still cool because the writers are too afraid to write realistic conflicts and don't want us at odds because of reasons.

 

Emma realizing Regina killed Graham:

Emma: So, you killed Graham, my friend and potential boyfriend, and never thought to tell me?

Regina: You ended up with the upgraded Hook anyways. I was doing you a favor.

(10 seconds later)

Emma: Oh, it's okay Regina. I guess we're still cool because the writers are too afraid to write realistic conflicts and don't want us at odds because of reasons.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

Don't forget to throw in a flashback where we see Graham killing Tarzan's parents and almost killed Tarzan, only stopped by Regina showing up to recruit him to kill Snow.

 

Not to mention we will find out he lied to Emma all along, and had plotted to kill Henry.  

 

Then, someone can knock him into the river of lost souls.

 

Press: "We're really excited to have Jamie Dornan back".

Edited April 14, 2016 by Camera One

[CheshireCat]

Camera One, on 13 Apr 2016 - 9:01 PM, said:

Hades has eyes and ears everywhere and he can even hear conversations that Belle had with her father "a long time ago".  So why wouldn't he be able to find Robin and the baby in the forest?  I mean, no one should be sitting there confident that magic-less Robin would be able to stop Hades from taking the baby if he really wanted it.

 

Maybe Regina provided a spell that would throw Hades off the right track? But I guess, since Zelena has rejected Hades, he doesn't really have an interest in the baby anymore anyway.

 

Curio, on 13 Apr 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

Yes! Why the hell do they want to all cram into the Charming's small loft when there's a luxurious mansion with dozens of rooms for them to stay in where it's protected by white magic that Hades can't go near?

 

Because the loft is a permanent set and (most of) the sorcerer's mansion has been CGI up until now?

[Mari]

Because the loft is a permanent set and (most of) the sorcerer's mansion has been CGI up until now?

Well, yes, but that's the real world reason. If they're not going to build a mansion room or two to give the impression they're staying there, the show should provide an in-universe explaination, even if it's a toss away comment about seeing Hades lurking in the driveway.

[KAOS Agent]

Emma's house is a permanent set. Why not hang out there? It's bigger and it has a crib and all the baby accoutrements. Robin alone in the woods seems pretty stupid. Then again, I figure James will just walk up to Robin, tell him Regina needs him and Robin will just hand him the baby. Then James can give it to Hades in a trade of sorts. 

 

Back to this episode, where did all those dogs come from? What did they do to deserve being stuck in the Underworld? Now that Gaston is dead, is Belle going to take over their care? Somebody damn well better be feeding and caring for the animals.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Robin alone in the woods seems pretty stupid.

Especially since Hades knows everything that happens in the Underworld. If he needed Pistachio, it would take him two minutes to get her. She might as well already be in his possession. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[CheshireCat]

Mari, on 14 Apr 2016 - 3:23 PM, said:

Well, yes, but that's the real world reason. If they're not going to build a mansion room or two to give the impression they're staying there, the show should provide an in-universe explaination, even if it's a toss away comment about seeing Hades lurking in the driveway.

 

Well, I was basically meaning that maybe that's the only explanation there is. I have to admit, while it doesn't make sense, it's the kind of things that I notice then ignore. Not worth getting upset over (there are far more important things to get upset over, like Belle's hypocrisy ;-) )

[Curio]

(there are far more important things to get upset over, like Belle's hypocrisy ;-) )

 

Your heart is rotten! ;-)

[Mari]

What annoys me about it is that it is such an easy fix--just toss in a comment with an excuse explaining why they aren't at the mansion with lots of room that Hades doesn't seem to have as much power over--and move on.

 

Instead, we're left with "The characters are too stupid to hang out in a place with more than one bathroom and a Hades alert system."

 

Belle's hypocrisy is a bigger issue, but that's not an easy fix;  it's too built-in to the story right now.  It makes me angry, and I'll rant about it, but . . .

[YaddaYadda]

Even Emma and Killian's place is bigger than the loft. They don't even need to stay at the mansion. All they have to do is have Emma put up a protection spell on the loft. She has light magic, so the protection against Hades still counts. 

 

But since the Nevengers have no clue that Hades' weakness is light magic, then they wouldn't even know to stay at the mansion anyway. It's not like Liam told them anything about how Hades can't deal with light magic. All they knew was there was a protection spell on the mansion. Even Henry when he told them about the mansion and the key never said a word about it being protected by light magic.

 

But this is exactly like in 3B when everyone was running around trying to figure out a way to defeat Zelena and protect Do Over.

Edited April 14, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

But since the Nevengers have no clue that Hades' weakness is light magic, then they wouldn't even know to stay at the mansion anyway. It's not like Liam told them anything about how Hades can't deal with light magic. All they knew was there was a protection spell on the mansion. Even Henry when he told them about the mansion and the key never said a word about it being protected by light magic.

 

Someone could have used their brain and wondered why Hades asked Liam to get the book, rather than grab it himself.  

[InsertWordHere]

Back to this episode, where did all those dogs come from? What did they do to deserve being stuck in the Underworld? Now that Gaston is dead, is Belle going to take over their care? Somebody damn well better be feeding and caring for the animals.

I guess all dogs don't go to heaven. As for feeding, do they even need to eat? Does anyone except the living people need to eat? They have a bar and Granny's but would the dead miss food if those places didn't exist? 

[KAOS Agent]

I'm fairly certain Gaston was preparing the dogs' food at some point, but maybe it's not a necessity, it's just going through the motions - like when Milah was helping the kids cross the street and Rumpel said that they were dead anyway.

 

Having little kids and dogs stuck in the Underworld is very, very sad and I wish the show wouldn't have played that for laughs. How awful for those kids and dogs to be stuck in a hopeless place unable to move on. I really hope that at the end of this they show puppies frolicking away into the better place. Or maybe Belle can help defeat Hades by helping the dogs move on. It's clear she's got a thing for beasts. It's a win win.

Edited April 15, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[andromeda331]

He was feeding the dogs at the animal or pet shelter. I hated it because Graham worked at the

animal shelter too when he was alive. They have it in Underworld but no Graham. It feels

wrong. And Graham was all I could think about when they had the scenes in the animal shelter.

Wondering where Graham was, why wasn't he feeding the dogs.  

[Shanna Marie]

As is sadly the usual case, my newspaper this morning had at least two stories about men attacking or killing women who'd left them and/or the men those women were now seeing, and that makes the presentation of Rumple and his relationship with Belle rather uncomfortable. So, we already had Rumple murdering his ex and attacking her new lover (plus going on to attack him again, repeatedly, acting as though he (Rumple) was the wronged party in all this for having his woman "stolen"), and then adding to that by pushing his ex into the River of Souls. And now we have Rumple murdering his potential romantic rival for Belle. But instead of Belle seeing a dangerous pattern in all this, she has one little outburst of shock at learning about Gaston before going on to support Rumple, and then she afterlife murders Gaston by pushing him into the River of Souls in defense of the man who murdered him.

[kili]

He was feeding the dogs at the animal or pet shelter. I hated it because Graham worked at the animal shelter too when he was alive. They have it in Underworld but no Graham. It feels wrong

 

I don't recall Graham working in the Animal Shelter. Graham was the sheriff. It was David Nolan (Charming before he regained his memories) who worked in the Animal Shelter.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't recall Graham working in the Animal Shelter. Graham was the sheriff. It was David Nolan (Charming before he regained his memories) who worked in the Animal Shelter.

Graham volunteered and "volunteered" at the animal shelter. I don't remember that we've ever seen him there except once with David.

 

Graham bored me to death. If it wasn't for the way he died, I don't think I'd even care.

[darkestboy]

Not a bad episode but not a great one either.

 

I guess it was easier to make Gaston as much as a terrible option for Belle as Rumple has turned out to be for her but it seemed a bit too easy as well.

 

Belle being the one to damn Gaston was a decent twist though. Of course she was going to be outsmarted by Hades in this one.

 

Hades pining after Zelena is fine enough but eventually she's going to be drawn back to him without him doing something, right?

 

Nice that all the Emma stuff this week led to Ruby's return, 7/10

[Joanh23]

I've listened to a couple of different podcasts, and read different reviews of this episode and I'm honestly amazed at how many people think that Gaston is worse than Rumple and that Belle was right to stay with Rumple!  Ok what Gaston did to the ogre wasn't good, but i don't see how it can be compared to what Rumple has done over the years.  In the EF Gaston died trying to save Belle who at the time was enslaved to the Dark One, even though he has no magic himself - I would say that was a pretty brave thing to do.  

 

I know a lot of people love Rumbelle but I really don't get it - when the actor himself has said that Rumple shouldn't get his happy ending that should tell people something.  I mean one podcast was even saying that Gaston was probably a wife beater!

[Mabinogia]

I mean one podcast was even saying that Gaston was probably a wife beater!

 

Well, considering Rumple is actually a wife killer, I'd still say Gaston is better. Seriously, wtf is wrong with people? Did I blink and miss the second that Gaston was violent towards Belle because, I don't remember it. Honestly, the only "bad" thing I remember Gaston doing was torturing the ogre which was terrible, yes, but since it was pretty reasonable to think that the ogre was there as a spy, I can at least say it wasn't just because Gaston wanted to hurt him, it was because Gaston thought he was an enemy of his country. Meanwhile Rumple's evil has far outweighed his good and when given the chance, unlike Gaston, he chose to stay on his dark path.

 

As for Gaston trying to kill Rumple in Underbrooke, well, fucking duh, Rumple is evil. In any other story Rumple would be the bad guy, hell, on this show Rumple is the big bad who keeps screwing the heroes over time and time again. How anyone can still want him to get a happy ending, or want Belle to be his emotionally abused wife is beyond me.

 

But yeah, Gaston who was evil that one time but made an attempt to redeem himself totally deserves to be tormented for eternity.

[andromeda331]

As for Gaston trying to kill Rumple in Underbrooke, well, fucking duh, Rumple is evil. In any other story Rumple would be the bad guy, hell, on this show Rumple is the big bad who keeps screwing the heroes over time and time again. How anyone can still want him to get a happy ending, or want Belle to be his emotionally abused wife is beyond me.

Not to mention Rumple killed Gaston. It blows my mind how people who are murdered can't be mad at people

who murdered them and want to kill them. You can be murdered by Rumple, but if you find him in the Underworld

and try to kill him. Your the bad guy. Your clearly evil and have zero right to try and take out the person who murdered

you.

[Dianthus]

What gets to me is that Hook, to be a hero, had to swear off his vengeance against Rumple, who has since done other really shitty things to him (taking his heart, trying to kill him, undercutting his big sacrifice) and the people he loves (trying to turn Emma dark, killing Milah again). Rumple has the ultimate get out of jail free card, and it just ain't right.

[Camera One]

I guess to the writers, that is consistent with their message.  Hook deserved to live because he swore off his vengeance.  Gaston continued to be vengeful, so he dies and no one should care.

[Mabinogia]

I am so confused about what TIIC are trying to say with Rumple. With all the other villlians we had a sort of "yeah, but they are just looking for love. True love will change them". Regina with Henry and then Robin (blech!, sorry, I just don't get that pairing at all), Hook with Emma, even now Zelena with Pistachio. But Rumple gets his true love with Belle and just gets worse. Are they saying she is not, actually his true love, or that he is just an irredeemable fuck who should be killed but never will because of Robert Carlyle.

 

I was never entirely sold on Rumple as the Beast and that storyline is just getting worse and worse. I feel like they have totally shit all over that love story which sucks because it's one of my favorites. The whole point of that story was that Belle's love broke the curse the beast was under. But Belle's love here is only making the curse worse because it's giving Rumple excuses to be the ass he clearly loves being.

[Mathius]

Rumple has the ultimate get out of jail free card, and it just ain't right.

 

Rumple even rubbed that in in this very episode! "Seeking revenge never ends well...unless, of course, you're me."

 

I was never entirely sold on Rumple as the Beast and that storyline is just getting worse and worse. I feel like they have totally shit all over that love story which sucks because it's one of my favorites. The whole point of that story was that Belle's love broke the curse the beast was under. But Belle's love here is only making the curse worse because it's giving Rumple excuses to be the ass he clearly loves being.

 

That's the point, it was a subversion of the B&TB love story, and it would work well.....for just one episode, as was originally planned.  Because of its baffling popularity among fans who thought it was supposed to be a straight-up B&TB story arc that needed to continue, they made Belle and the romance an ongoing thing while still keeping it a subversion, and this has only made it tiresome by this point.  They really need to wrap it up soon.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I feel like I deserve some sort of obsessed fan merit badge for watching both episodes this week.

I'm trying to figure this out: There were ogre wars going on about 14 years before Rumple became the Dark One, and then (or maybe still) 14 years later when he became the Dark One, which was at least 100 years before the flashback for this episode (or longer, depending on which time reference they make in which episode). And the very reason behind the events in this episode's flashback was that the ogres were raiding inside their borders. And yet the enmity with the ogres was all Gaston's fault because he tortured the ogre they caught? Or were they implying that all along, humans had been doing that sort of thing, which was what made the ogres hate them? And yet, Belle later had no trouble siccing the Dark One on the ogres, since that's why she had to go live with Rumple, as payment for him dealing with the ogres for them.

It says a lot about Belle that her philosophy of life seems to have come from a cheesy romance novel. I'd think that if it were a work of great literature, it would have a better title than "Her Handsome Hero." It's like she uses a Harlequin Romance as her guide to life (not that there's anything wrong with those books -- I've written a couple -- but I wouldn't encourage anyone to build their world view around them).

You can see the writers' strings in the fact that Hades is bitching about the heroes in town having brought hope -- well, whose fault is that? Maybe if you hadn't trapped them there with those tombstones they'd be well away and death would have gone on like usual in the Underworld. Hades' actions make no sense and are just for plot purposes because the writers needed to keep the characters in the Underworld.

[andromeda331]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I feel like I deserve some sort of obsessed fan merit badge for watching both episodes this week.

I'm trying to figure this out: There were ogre wars going on about 14 years before Rumple became the Dark One, and then (or maybe still) 14 years later when he became the Dark One, which was at least 100 years before the flashback for this episode (or longer, depending on which time reference they make in which episode). And the very reason behind the events in this episode's flashback was that the ogres were raiding inside their borders. And yet the enmity with the ogres was all Gaston's fault because he tortured the ogre they caught? Or were they implying that all along, humans had been doing that sort of thing, which was what made the ogres hate them? And yet, Belle later had no trouble siccing the Dark One on the ogres, since that's why she had to go live with Rumple, as payment for him dealing with the ogres for them.

It says a lot about Belle that her philosophy of life seems to have come from a cheesy romance novel. I'd think that if it were a work of great literature, it would have a better title than "Her Handsome Hero." It's like she uses a Harlequin Romance as her guide to life (not that there's anything wrong with those books -- I've written a couple -- but I wouldn't encourage anyone to build their world view around them).

It really does. I understand if she loved the story as a kid or even early teen. But its really weird that's where she gets her philosophy from. Its the exactly like Henry still being into fairy tales and heroes don't kill when both keep those ideas and beliefs long into adulthood. Its a story. Plus she comes off stupid dating and marrying Rumple for all his crimes but damning Gaston for one smaller crime. We don't even know why Gaston was wrong. Were the ogres attacking again? Given how many wars they've had in the past and how many people who died why is what Gaston did wrong? Was it always humans starting everything? That's not something they've ever implied and don't really say which is which in this episode. Why is Belle who's mother was killed by ogres so horrified by Gaston? 

When I watched this one the first time I really expected to learn at some point that Rumple started things up with the ogres again so he could get Belle. It fits with his pattern. He asked Regina to bankrupt King George, helping King George so he could tell him where to find Cinderella's fairy godmother.

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And yet, Belle later had no trouble siccing the Dark One on the ogres, since that's why she had to go live with Rumple, as payment for him dealing with the ogres for them.

I never really thought about it that way.  But yeah, this was yet another retcon that made Belle seem hypocritical.

In this episode, I think we were supposed to feel sorry for the ogre because it was a teenager?

Belle gets more flashbacks than Charming, but each of hers are dumber than the last.  Remember the one where she is desperate to find out what happened to the mom after the Ogre burst into the room and knocked her unconscious?

The show prides itself on turning the Disney Princesses into kickass female role models, but then they say Belle's inspiration is a book called "Her Handsome Hero"?   What were the Writers thinking?  Not to mention, Belle fell in love with the opposite of a handsome hero... the book should have been "Her Deceitful Bad Boy".

[KAOS Agent]

The whole torture the ogre thing was bad, but as mentioned above, Rumpel is keen on the torture too and is responsible for so much worse. I also have serious problems with letting the ogre go. He might have been judged as not evil by the mirror, but he was still the enemy. Belle's corollary was incorrect. The mirror judged evil in one's soul. Thus she believed that no evil soul = no desire to harm them, which does not track with reality. Young Ogre believed in the ogre cause, whatever that may be. That cause involved invading and killing everyone in its path. Unless all ogres are evil souled except this one (doubtful), then the mirror is worthless in judging intended harm. He should have remained a POW. Also, the ogres had previously been portrayed as mindless killers with little brain power and no conscience. Now suddenly we're supposed to feel bad for one who got caught even knowing that they had mindlessly slaughtered villages across the Enchanted Forest.

I'm not sure what they were trying to say about Rumpel/Belle in this episode. But here are some fun quotes to review.

Belle: This was a mistake. Once again, I've let my optimism cloud my judgment.  [So optimism is her problem]
Belle: Every time you try something nefarious, it's a smashing success, but when I ask you to channel that power for good, you fail.  [Pretty much.]
Rumpel: Oh, so you get to be the judge of when the ends justify the means. I see. As I said, it's all about points of view.  [I kind of appreciate Rumpel's annoyance with Belle and her brand of idiotic hypocrisy]

Rumpel: Revenge is such a tricky business. I find it rarely ends well, unless, of course, you're me. And now you get to spend eternity trapped in these waters.
Gaston: You may destroy me, but you'll always be a beast.
Rumpel: Well, I'm all right with that. You see, this is the fun part. [So he's getting off on killing someone and the writers acknowledge that Rumpel always gets away with his crap while everyone else is punished or killed]

Belle (to Rumpel immediately following the above exchange): I just want to tell you I have always known who you really are. And that's why I love you. [I don't even know what to say about this anymore.]
 

Edited June 2, 2019 by KAOS Agent

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

The whole torture the ogre thing was bad, but as mentioned above, Rumpel is keen on the torture too and is responsible for so much worse. I also have serious problems with letting the ogre go. He might have been judged as not evil by the mirror, but he was still the enemy. Belle's corollary was incorrect. The mirror judged evil in one's soul. Thus she believed that no evil soul = no desire to harm them, which does not track with reality. Young Ogre believed in the ogre cause, whatever that may be. That cause involved invading and killing everyone in its path. Unless all ogres are evil souled except this one (doubtful), then the mirror is worthless in judging intended harm. He should have remained a POW. Also, the ogres had previously been portrayed as mindless killers with little brain power and no conscience. Now suddenly we're supposed to feel bad for one who got caught even knowing that they had mindlessly slaughtered villages across the Enchanted Forest.

I'm not sure what they were trying to say about Rumpel/Belle in this episode. But here are some fun quotes to review.

Belle: This was a mistake. Once again, I've let my optimism cloud my judgment.  [So optimism is her problem]
Belle: Every time you try something nefarious, it's a smashing success, but when I ask you to channel that power for good, you fail.  [Pretty much.]
Rumpel: Oh, so you get to be the judge of when the ends justify the means. I see. As I said, it's all about points of view.  [I kind of appreciate Rumpel's annoyance with Belle and her brand of idiotic hypocrisy]

Rumpel: Revenge is such a tricky business. I find it rarely ends well, unless, of course, you're me. And now you get to spend eternity trapped in these waters.
Gaston: You may destroy me, but you'll always be a beast.
Rumpel: Well, I'm all right with that. You see, this is the fun part. [So he's getting off on killing someone and the writers acknowledge that Rumpel always gets away with his crap while everyone else is punished or killed]

Belle (to Rumpel immediately following the above exchange): I just want to tell you I have always known who you really are. And that's why I love you. [I don't even know what to say about this anymore.]
 

Yeah, that pretty much sums up all the WTF about Rumple's and Belle's relationship. Rumple loves to kill, torture, do whatever he wants. He loves it and gets off on it. Belle keeps acting like he's good despite ALL of the evidence against that. Then at the end admits she always knew who he was. I mean really what are we to with that statement? On one hand its nice that she admits to "see" who Rumple has always been. But of course that's never been the case. She's been the moron always trying to convince people that Rumple's really good and insisting he has a good heart again in spite of ALL the difference. 

[Camera One]

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

The whole torture the ogre thing was bad, but as mentioned above, Rumpel is keen on the torture too and is responsible for so much worse. 

Belle later saw Rumple torture Robin Hood, and after that, she concluded that he was a good man deep inside because he didn't kill him.  Yet her opinion about Gaston never changed.  What was it about Rumple which was so attractive, over another "bad" guy like Gaston?  

1 minute ago, andromeda331 said:

On one hand its nice that she admits to "see" who Rumple has always been. But of course that's never been the case.

Exactly.  Rumple isn't good deep inside, so she's not "seeing" anything.  She's "seeing" what she wants to see.  I guess from A&E's perspective, viewers ARE supposed to believe Rumple is actually good deep inside.  Because they keep selling us that we should be rooting for Rumple and Belle to be together.  Eddy keeps saying the crap about Rumple admitting that he's a "difficult man to love".   He doesn't deserve the love.  By this point in the series, I would have been happy if he just died.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Belle later saw Rumple torture Robin Hood, and after that, she concluded that he was a good man deep inside because he didn't kill him.  Yet her opinion about Gaston never changed.  What was it about Rumple which was so attractive, over another "bad" guy like Gaston?  

Exactly.  Rumple isn't good deep inside, so she's not "seeing" anything.  She's "seeing" what she wants to see.  I guess from A&E's perspective, viewers ARE supposed to believe Rumple is actually good deep inside.  Because they keep selling us that we should be rooting for Rumple and Belle to be together.  Eddy keeps saying the crap about Rumple admitting that he's a "difficult man to love".   He doesn't deserve the love.  By this point in the series, I would have been happy if he just died.

Same here. I was ready for him to be killed off in 4A when he was tried to hat Emma, what he did to Hook, and everyone else he did Hat and was happy to leave everyone to die while he left with Belle and Henry. They really should have killed him off in 3A when he killed his father which lead to his own demised. It was a good ending for someone so horrible and selfish. He finally was willing to die to save his family and protect them from his father AND as an added benefit no more Dark Ones. But then they undid all of that and not even for anything better. Its not as if Rumple had any better storylines that followed. He just kept becoming worse and worse.  It was the perfect end of his character. 

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I also have serious problems with letting the ogre go. He might have been judged as not evil by the mirror, but he was still the enemy. Belle's corollary was incorrect. The mirror judged evil in one's soul. Thus she believed that no evil soul = no desire to harm them, which does not track with reality. Young Ogre believed in the ogre cause, whatever that may be. That cause involved invading and killing everyone in its path. Unless all ogres are evil souled except this one (doubtful), then the mirror is worthless in judging intended harm. He should have remained a POW. Also, the ogres had previously been portrayed as mindless killers with little brain power and no conscience.

Good point. It comes down to how you define "evil." Even in the armies fighting for the worst adversaries, I don't think all the soldiers would measure up as having evil in their souls. Their leaders might, but the grunts who got drafted might just be doing their jobs. They'll still kill those who oppose them, but it's not because their souls are evil. On the other hand, if they're more like animals, just mindless killers, that won't show up as evil, either. I don't think lions, sharks, or rattlesnakes would measure up on a magical device as having evil in their souls, but they're still incredibly dangerous.

That doesn't mean torturing any of these is something a good person would do. But it was idiotic to want to go get a mirror to measure the ogre's soul when they had it captive. And it's hypocritical of Belle to be horrified that Gaston tortured an ogre and to fall in love with Rumple because he stopped torturing Robin (after he'd apparently been torturing him for some time).

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Rumple isn't good deep inside, so she's not "seeing" anything.  She's "seeing" what she wants to see.  I guess from A&E's perspective, viewers ARE supposed to believe Rumple is actually good deep inside. 

They have a weird mutually exclusive thing going on with Rumple. We're supposed to see that he's good inside and truly has a good heart, so Belle's right to believe in him, but we're also supposed to see him as the darkest of the Dark Ones who will always choose power over everything else.

Spoiler

I guess he did end up finally being somewhat selfless, but that came after he did some pretty questionable stuff to lead up to that.

[tennisgurl]

This is another episode where I just end up feeling second hand embarrassment for the character focused on, especially with Belle basing her life around this romance novel, and running around basically acting like a totally naive moron at best and horrifically hypocritical at best the whole time. Like everyone else said, the idea that Gaston is such a bad guy for torturing this ogre, while she can forgive Rumple over and over for doing much worse, is absolutely ridiculous and speaks to how this show idolizes its pet characters into ways that go past annoying and into creepy. Maybe its just how the actor played it, but it came across that Gaston really did think that torturing and killing this kid ogre was for the greater good and would have to be done to protect the kingdom and save lives, and while I dont agree with him, at least he has some good intentions for his dark actions, whats Rumples excuse? He is just a sadist who loves power, and Belle still fell for him, after seeing him do much worse for worse reasons than what Gaston does. But then he gets damned to eternal torment and is a bad guy for wanting to kill the guy who kidnapped his fiance and murdered him horribly, so...sucks to be a non main character I guess?

Speaking of, what is up with the ogres anyway? Considering how important the ogre wars are to the backstory of many characters, how long has this war been going on anyway? It was going on when Rumple was still a human, and when he was long the dark one when Belle was an adult, but we know nothing about it. Is this the EF version of the hundred years war, or is it tons of different wars that are jump lumped together? Ogres seem to be kind of semi sentient monsters when we see them, but do they actually have a cause and a society and are fully sentient people? Maybe, if they have scouts and stuff, but why are they attacking human kingdoms? What do they want? Are all humans dicks to baby ogres like Belle stupidly implies to make herself feel better, or do they have some other goal beyond just killing random people? Where did the ogres go when the dark curse was enacted? Snow and Emma ran into some of them when they went to the post curse EF, are they still there? 

Torturing people (or ogres or anything or anyone) is bad, as is killing unarmed prisoners, but just letting the ogre go, with the implication that the baby ogre went and told his fellows about what happened and now they are attacking, just makes Belle look like a selfish idiot. They could have just taken the ogre as a POW or as a dangerous animal lacking sentience, depending on what ogres actually are or how they work, but letting him just run off was dangerous and irresponsible, especially as Belle is supposed to be a leader of her people. Its like Snow letting Regina just go off on her merry way instead of executing or jailing her. As long as the hero gets to feel good about themselves and call themselves a "hero" who cares how many other innocent people have to die? 

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of, what is up with the ogres anyway? Considering how important the ogre wars are to the backstory of many characters, how long has this war been going on anyway?

This is a worldbuilding fail. I guess they didn't think the details were important, that we just needed to know there was some kind of threat, but it actually does matter, especially when we get to this episode where the treatment of the ogres is a moral issue. There's a difference between them being an organized army aimed at destroying humankind and them just being animalistic monsters. Do you really go to "war" with monsters, complete with a draft? Can you have military strategy against mindless killing machines? Are they sentient beings who plan their attacks? Why do they keep going to war against the humans? Did the humans settle in their territory, or are they moving into human territory?

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Where did the ogres go when the dark curse was enacted? Snow and Emma ran into some of them when they went to the post curse EF, are they still there? 

I'm guessing that since there was no mention of ogres after Belle went to live with Rumple that he took care of them for the time being, so they weren't in the areas affected by the curse but moved in once the humans were all gone. We didn't find out what happened to the ogres after Team Princess. Maybe Zelena banished them somehow when she moved in to Regina's palace and took over. They don't seem to have been an issue during the Missing Year.

Basically, the ogres are plot devices who show up when they need something big to fight against and disappear when they're inconvenient to the plot.

[Camera One]

That's a good point about the convenient Ogres.  So Belle's area was besieged by them.  But Snow's kingdom never had an Ogre problem (she knew how to fight one in 2A so maybe they did?), nor did Cinderella, and David didn't have to worry about them on the farm.  Were Ogres and Trolls related?    

Why didn't people get some dark fairy dust and throw them at Ogres?

Spoiler

Which reminds me... we never did find out where Snow got her black fairy dust.  Even though we met the Black Fairy.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Considering how important the ogre wars are to the backstory of many characters, how long has this war been going on anyway? It was going on when Rumple was still a human, and when he was long the dark one when Belle was an adult, but we know nothing about it. Is this the EF version of the hundred years war, or is it tons of different wars that are jump lumped together?

There are vague mentions of the Third Ogre War or whatever, so I think the implication is that the ogres have been fighting off and on for centuries. That said, is there no history in the Enchanted Forest? Hook & Liam were sent to find the dreamshade for use against the ogres, so their kingdom was fighting them. The Dark One ended the war that Bae was going to be sent to fight. Does no one remember that? Why was it that book loving Belle had never heard of this Rumpelstilskin guy and the epic end of the ogre war? There was a throwaway line about how Zelena had solved the ogre problem before the reverse curse. How exactly did she do that? Her magic isn't all that, so why couldn't the fairies have done the same? No one could erect a magical wall to keep out the attacking ogres? There's no worldbuilding and they don't care. Ogres are an unstoppable force when they need them to be and easily disposed of when they need to explain them away.

Edited June 4, 2019 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Hook & Liam were sent to find the dreamshade for use against the ogres, so their kingdom was fighting them.

Were they fighting ogres? I don't remember them giving any specifics about who the enemy was or who the dreamshade would be used against. Hook was horrified by the idea of using dreamshade on their enemies. Would he have been that horrified if they'd been ogres?

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Why was it that book loving Belle had never heard of this Rumpelstilskin guy and the epic end of the ogre war?

I think she had. She mentions in the episode with Anna that she's heard of someone who could help. They seemed to be implying at the end of that episode that they were leading up to her contacting Rumple for help against the ogres, so she must have learned that he'd helped before.

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

But Snow's kingdom never had an Ogre problem (she knew how to fight one in 2A so maybe they did?)

Regina probably lured the ogres to their kingdom in an attempt to make Snow look bad, but instead Snow made an instant friend who taught her everything she needed to know about fighting ogres and she was able to singlehandedly drive them away from the kingdom, making Regina's plan backfire.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Were they fighting ogres? I don't remember them giving any specifics about who the enemy was or who the dreamshade would be used against. Hook was horrified by the idea of using dreamshade on their enemies. Would he have been that horrified if they'd been ogres?

They never said who the enemy was. Hook was horrified at using the dreamshade on them. But as always they never gave us any details. Hook just deciding the King was bad and became a pilot and stole the ship. We don't know who they were fighting or how long. We don't even really know if the King was bad or not because we don't know anything about him or the war. If he was an evil king how did no one in the crew know it? Did the King hide it? No one in the crew not even Hook or Liam gave any signs that they didn't trust the King or were suspicious. So did they never fight battles? Were they always on supply runs? They seemed to completely support the King until the dreamshade. It really doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't know he was evil. Even if they were grateful to get out of slave lives and into actual real positions you'd think they would say something about not liking the King or going along with him because he did that for them. There are other reasons for the King to be wanting to use the dreamshade aside from being evil.  Maybe he was desperate running out of money, maybe they were losing, about to be taken over, and defeated by the enemy. Maybe the war had been going on for so long he wanted it over. Maybe it was the ogres who back in Rumple's time the war with them was going so bad they were down to drafting 14 year olds to fight. Maybe he really was evil. But they never give us anything more to go on. I really thought the way they went out of not saying the King's name that it was going to be a big reveal later. But they never did.

[Shanna Marie]

On 6/4/2019 at 2:56 PM, andromeda331 said:

If he was an evil king how did no one in the crew know it? Did the King hide it? No one in the crew not even Hook or Liam gave any signs that they didn't trust the King or were suspicious. So did they never fight battles? Were they always on supply runs? They seemed to completely support the King until the dreamshade. It really doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't know he was evil. Even if they were grateful to get out of slave lives and into actual real positions you'd think they would say something about not liking the King or going along with him because he did that for them.

I can see how maybe the king could have hid some shadiness from sailors who probably never met him in person. He could have been doing evil things secretly behind the scenes while putting up a good front. They were told the dreamshade was a healing herb. What we don't know is whether the king knew it was poison and was planning genocide or whether the king was badly informed and really thought it was a healing herb.

And it's a pity we never learned more about the king because the king who seems like a genial good guy while secretly plotting genocide and hiding the evidence of what he's up to would have been an interesting character. My headcanon is that it was essentially a suicide mission because the king would have killed them all once they brought him the dreamshade. Actually, they would have died as great heroes in a desperate battle that they were sent to with no chance to win (well, until Killian came up with a clever idea that got them out of it, and then they had to be sent into yet another hopeless battle before the crew got a chance to talk to anyone about the mission to Neverland and what they brought back).

But this is getting off-topic for this thread. So, um, no ogres for that war, but that war was probably around the time Rumple was drafted (maybe a few years later, but still the same era). That war might have been an offshoot of the ogre war. Which means the ogre wars can't be all Gaston's fault.

[Camera One]

I was watching that scene where Gaston kills the Dummy Rumple and Belle shames him.  This guy was trying to become a better person by appealing to Rumple without an army, yet Rumple casually murdered him.  He's portrayed as the worst person ever, but shouldn't there be a level of grey?  In the flashback, he did torture the Ogre, but we know how Ogres had presumably terrorized villagers and killed indiscriminately.  Episodes like this are dripping with hypocrisy.

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I was watching that scene where Gaston kills the Dummy Rumple and Belle shames him.  This guy was trying to become a better person by appealing to Rumple without an army, yet Rumple casually murdered him.  He's portrayed as the worst person ever, but shouldn't there be a level of grey?  In the flashback, he did torture the Ogre, but we know how Ogres had presumably terrorized villagers and killed indiscriminately.  Episodes like this are dripping with hypocrisy.

That's pretty much it. As bad as Gaston's crime was torturing an ogre. Its no where near as bad things Rumple did. He's done so much worse and for so much longer but he's a "good" guy while Gaston's a horrible evil person for doing one thing wrong. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by andromeda331

[KAOS Agent]

Not only did Rumpel casually kill Gaston when he was trying to save Belle, but he was stuck in the Underworld because of their unfinished business. Gaston says, "I have been trapped down here for years, suffering and miserable because of him." So basically Rumpel's actions meant that Gaston was being tortured in death too. But you know, Rumpel has a good heart.

The other thing I picked up on was that Belle didn't want to bring the ogre to the castle because "the soldiers will torture him." Yes, that's a direct quote. Gaston was not acting out of line with what Belle knew everyone in the army would do. He's not a special brand of psychopath. He's doing what everyone else would have done. I'm not trying to justify anyone's actions, but how is Gaston super evil for acting the same way others would, but Rumpel is okay when he's torturing Robin in a way that I'm pretty sure the rest of the kingdom would find abhorrent.

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Not only did Rumpel casually kill Gaston when he was trying to save Belle, but he was stuck in the Underworld because of their unfinished business. Gaston says, "I have been trapped down here for years, suffering and miserable because of him." So basically Rumpel's actions meant that Gaston was being tortured in death too. But you know, Rumpel has a good heart.

I kept thinking that Gaston didn't die that long ago but then I remember he was in the Underworld before the first curse, so he has suffered for more than 28 years of having "Her Handsome Hero" being thrown in his face.  He died trying to save Belle and he seriously didn't need to.  No wonder he was bitter.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Not only did Rumpel casually kill Gaston when he was trying to save Belle, but he was stuck in the Underworld because of their unfinished business. Gaston says, "I have been trapped down here for years, suffering and miserable because of him." So basically Rumpel's actions meant that Gaston was being tortured in death too. But you know, Rumpel has a good heart.

If Rumple really had a good heart, he might talk a good show about the horrible things he was going to do to people, but he'd actually end up using his vast powers to avoid doing awful things while still getting them out of his way in a way that looks bad but that doesn't really harm them. Why kill Gaston when he could poof him to just about anywhere? Send him off to some jungle land with really good hunting and strong women who also like to hunt, and Rumple looks "bad" for poofing away an enemy, but he actually changes Gaston's life for the better in a win-win situation that means Rumple has no romantic rival. Instead, Rumple uses his great power for casual cruelty against people who have no defense and who can't possibly actually harm him, which is the opposite of having a good heart.

14 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

The other thing I picked up on was that Belle didn't want to bring the ogre to the castle because "the soldiers will torture him." Yes, that's a direct quote. Gaston was not acting out of line with what Belle knew everyone in the army would do.

So I guess that means it's the other soldiers who are to blame for the ogre wars? Have they been torturing ogres all this time, and those raids are just to try to rescue their comrades, or did soldiers start torturing ogres as revenge for the deaths the ogres caused?

And, still, Belle was perfectly okay with using the Dark One against the ogres, and I'm fairly certain Rumple didn't poof them to an ogre paradise. He probably did something awful to them. But she's okay with that.

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm fairly certain Rumple didn't poof them to an ogre paradise. He probably did something awful to them. But she's okay with that.

That is certainly a funny image.  It's interesting how they didn't think about that at all when they wrote this episode.  How did Rumple prove to Belle that he saved her kingdom from the Ogres?  

The whole "Beauty and the Beast" movie was based on how much Belle loved her father.  They really went the opposite route on all fronts with this show.  It sounds like this Belle couldn't have cared less if she never saw her father again.