S04.E03: Experimental Prototype City Of Tomorrow

[sistermagpie]

I don't see a friendship at all! She is a mark of some sort.

 

 

Yes, she's definitely targeting her as a source of some kind. Obviously she's not really just there to sell Mary Kay, after all. But she did connect with her as a person. She likes her. She told Philip she had fun and that meant with her family too. That's the thing that's different. It makes it different for her to just separate herself and hurt her. The friendship isn't real in that Elizabeth is really just manipulating her to get to whatever she needs to get, but Elizabeth does I think obviously actually like this woman. I would say that's very much connecting with her as a friend despite the fact that it's in the service of a lie.

 

In episode 1 he seriously considered going to the FBI and making a deal. That option seems considerably better now, when you think about where things now stand with Paige and such. And yet, he keeps going? And yet, he even talks about going back to Russia?

 

 

 

 

Makes perfect sense to me. In the first ep he had Timoshev to bargain with and probably hadn't even been doing the same kinds of missions as he has been so often now. Since then the cold war's gotten a lot hotter and it would be unlikely they'd be happy to give him the retirement deal he wanted in the pilot where he just got to slip off to Wisconsin under a different name and never have to act against his own country. (That was probably a fantasy anyway.) Now not only does he know that Elizabeth would never defect, but he has an alleged son fighting in Afghanistan he wants to protect along with the faceless countrymen he had before.

 

Philip hasn't given up on the cause either, after all. He wants to retire from spying, but as he said to Elizabeth, it all matters still to him. Russia is still his country and his people, so going back there isn't a bizarre idea to him. This is the same plan he and Elizabeth made back in S1 when they feared they might get caught--whichever one who could was supposed to run with the kids to the Russians. The place doesn't matter to him if the family's together.

 

If his goal is his family's safety, it makes perfectly good sense to be extracted before he gets caught and then be protected by his own people. Going to the FBI comes with its own set of problems even beyond the fact that Elizabeth, unlike Philip, seems like she'd never consider it. America's still the enemy. Philip feels badly about things he's done to individual Americans but he has no loyalty to the country that I've ever seen--he doesn't think it's evil by any means, but he doesn't feel guilty about scoring hits against it. I can see why he'd see it as far more logical to think of ending his mission (by going back to the USSR) than becoming a target of the KGB and possibly having to work for the US.

Edited April 4, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Blakeston]

Being as we're asking about the bug on the FBI office...didn't the FBI find the bug in the mail robot, which made Gene the obvious person to frame? Did Elizabeth and Philip plant a new bug in it after that? Is the FBI stupid enough to not re-check it?

[sistermagpie]

Does anyone know what happened to spies like P and E when they returned back home?  Did they get a cover life there?  How would they explain their kids speaking English only with American accents?  I just can't envision it.  I'm trying to envision Paige in a reprogramming facility.....lol.

 

 

I don't think they'd need a cover life--they'd be heroes. Their life would probably be a bit like Elizabeth laid out for Gregory in S1. Nice living, Russian lessons and whatever else to help the kids adjust, Philip and Elizabeth would probably work training other Illegals and other consulting things like that. 

 

That's not to say this couldn't go sour in any way, of course. But they would be returning home as themselves. Anna Chapman became a celebrity.

 

Being as we're asking about the bug on the FBI office...didn't the FBI find the bug in the mail robot, which made Gene the obvious person to frame? Did Elizabeth and Philip plant a new bug in it after that? Is the FBI stupid enough to not re-check it?

 

 

 

They never found the bug in the Mail Robot. It was the pen bug they found. The Mail Robot bug replaced the pen.

[TimWil]

Yes, of course Young-hee is a mark but I think for once the tables should be turned on Elizabeth and she finds herself having to tussle with a dangerous adversary. That would be utterly delightful. And Ruthie Ann Miles is more than qualified to play it out.

[Blakeston]

They never found the bug in the Mail Robot. It was the pen bug they found. The Mail Robot bug replaced the pen.

So Philip framed the inventor of the mail robot, even though he'd recently hidden the bug in the mail robot? That seems dumb of Philip to think the FBI wouldn't check the mail robot - and the FBI seems even dumber for not checking it.

[sistermagpie]

So Philip framed the inventor of the mail robot, even though he'd recently hidden the bug in the mail robot? That seems dumb of Philip to think the FBI wouldn't check the mail robot - and the FBI seems even dumber for not checking it.

 

 

I'm not sure Gene has much to do with the mail robot. He's the IT guy and the Mail Robot's a machine like the copier. They had to send it out for repairs.

[Blakeston]

I'm pretty sure Martha said something last season about Gene being the inventor of the mail robot.

[sistermagpie]

I'm pretty sure Martha said something last season about Gene being the inventor of the mail robot.

 

 

But Mail robots were a thing that existed and were used since the 1970s. It would be like Gene having invented the laser printer the office uses.

[AGuyToo]

I'm pretty sure Martha said something last season about Gene being the inventor of the mail robot.

 

After Gaad beat up the mail robot, Martha told Philip that the robot was in such bad shape that "Gene couldn't fix it" and it would have to be sent out to be repaired. She also said that Gene, in his role as the computer specialist, was in charge of the robot and the one who had originally recommended they upgrade the message delivery system (i.e., purchase the mail robot). She didn't say he invented it.

Edited April 4, 2016 by AGuyToo

[sistermagpie]

After Gaad beat up the mail robot, Martha told Philip that the robot was in such bad shape that "Gene couldn't fix it" and it would have to be sent out to be repaired. She also said that Gene, in his role as the computer specialist, was in charge of the robot and the one who had originally recommended they upgrade the message delivery system (i.e., purchase the mail robot). She didn't say he invented it.

 

 

Oh yeah--I remember Clark very pointedly saying "Who's Gene?" which sounded like the first time he was clearly asking her a question about the office with her knowing why he was asking (i.e., as a spy for the enemy). 

 

So yeah, Gene probably knows more about the Mail Robot than most in the office as a guy who deals with machines. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. It might put the bug in danger if they thought to check it because of the connection to Gene, but otoh, even if they found it it would seem to point back to Gene, backing up the idea that he was the guy who planted the bug. But they chose the Mail Robot at least in part because it was out for repairs that time.

 

And now that I think about it, they might not think to check it because they might think--like many of us did--that it was a silly place to put a bug. Oleg himself has even saying that, as we expected, most of what it picks up is meaningless chatter. It doesn't go anywhere the most private conversations would be, like in Gaad's office.

[Darren]

Now not only does he know that Elizabeth would never defect, but he has an alleged son fighting in Afghanistan he wants to protect along with the faceless countrymen he had before.

Yeah, I see it differently than you. I don't think Philip's commitment to the cause is at all clear, nor his love for the "motherland". What I see is plenty of confusion and angst about the crazy, violent upbringing he suffered there. And I see him remind Elizabeth on many an occasion that the Soviets don't value transparency like the Americans do. He's probably preached to her five times or so about that. But, that said, you do bring up a good point re: his son who's still in the Soviet system. 

[SlovakPrincess]

I really liked Young He.  And her husband, the wine enthusiast ... who I assume is also a dude with high level clearance that Elizabeth wants to use for access.  

 

I loved Elizabeth saying to Philip (about her Mary Kay sales day) "it was fun" -- in a subtle way, it showed even Elizabeth isn't immune to liking life in America, and that is possibly part of why she wants to try and stay if they can make it work (whereas Philip has flipped to wanting to run, if it means Paige won't realize they're all responsible for a pastor's death).  It was a very interesting moment, since up until now, Elizabeth has been kind of the hard-ass, while Philip has been more appreciative of their day to day life in America.    

 

I did not see that coming with Gabriel getting sick!   

 

What is wrong with me that I laughed when Philip spit on William, and William was like "asshole!"  Hee ... ahem.  So wrong.  

 

Is the Nina actress leaving the show?  Otherwise, not sure why they put her back in the gulag, when the interaction with Anton was way more interesting.   I guess poor Nina is pretty well screwed now ...   :(

[sistermagpie]

And I see him remind Elizabeth on many an occasion that the Soviets don't value transparency like the Americans do. He's probably preached to her five times or so about that.

 

 

Wasn't it just the one time when she thought the Reagan assassination was a coup and Philip explained that that's not the way things worked in the US? She took that as coming from a too-positive view about the US but he said it was just a fact of how things worked there. She seems to think she needs to be negative about everything in the US in order to be a good Soviet, he doesn't.

 

I mean, he's confused about whether what he's doing is worth it and whether it's helping, and we know he puts his family above the cause and would live anywhere they could be with them, but to me that's slightly different than his having actually rejected the cause or his country.

Edited April 5, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Darren]

Wasn't it just the one time when she thought the Reagan assassination was a coup and Philip explained that that's not the way things worked in the US? She took that as coming from a too-positive view about the US but he said it was just a fact of how things worked there. She seems to think she needs to be negative about everything in the US in order to be a good Soviet, he doesn't.

Right. But he didn't just inform her that it worked differently in America. He went on to say that the Soviet system lacked transparency and basically flat out lied to its own people (unlike in America, in other words). He reminded her how long it took for the Soviet gov't to even admit a former leader had died there - and it was like, weeks. You're right that that's the only time he mentioned transparency per se, but I meant that there have been other times where he has complimented the positives of the American system.

 

What I find lacking is a mention of his underlying motivation for the cause. I would have loved a scene where he sat down with Paige and explained, from his more down to earth perspective, why he believed in the Soviet system. I feel like he could reach Paige in a way Elizabeth (ever the hard-ass and fanatic) couldn't. But that scene never happened.

 

So, all that is to say, while absolutely loving, loving, loving the show (seriously, it's the best ever), I do wish they would speak to Philip's motivation at some point. All it would take is a flashback scene to a time when he saw the underlying good in the cause (personally saw it, I mean). But so far that hasn't happened. So he ends up looking like someone caught between a rock and hard place a lot - only I'm not sure exactly why he feels fully stuck there. I understand the tension from the one side, but not the other.

[SlovakPrincess]

I don't know that Philip even remembers his initial motivation at this point. Or if he ever had a strong reason for it. I think his family was probably struggling to survive and when they recruited him as a teenager, he didn't think saying no was an option.

And his quality of living (aside from the learn-how-to-sleep-with-everyone training, I guess) probably improved by a lot when the Centre took an interest in grooming him for espionage.

Now he's just trapped, and the Centre trying to force Paige into business has really turned him sour on the whole thing. His discontent has grown over time, but I don't think he ever had a strong passion for "the cause."

[Ina123]

Lisa's story may indeed be done. She and her husband turned over the camera and got the payoff. Maybe that's The End, unless Baklanov needs more photos. Philip still needs to see Kimmie to pick up the tapes in her father's briefcase, so I think we'll see her again at some point. There are 10 more episodes and many things can happen.

Was Lisa and her husband (boyfriend?) the ones involved with the plane wing? If so, I think they will be back because the kidnapped guy told Nina what he is designing isn't working. Anyway, whomever it was who got the plane info I think will be asked to do more.

[Chaos Theory]

I don't know that Philip even remembers his initial motivation at this point. Or if he ever had a strong reason for it. I think his family was probably struggling to survive and when they recruited him as a teenager, he didn't think saying no was an option.

And his quality of living (aside from the learn-how-to-sleep-with-everyone training, I guess) probably improved by a lot when the Centre took an interest in grooming him for espionage.

Now he's just trapped, and the Centre trying to force Paige into business has really turned him sour on the whole thing. His discontent has grown over time, but I don't think he ever had a strong passion for "the cause."

I think Philip was basically an orphan living on the street and fighting bigger kids for milk. The KGB offered him stability and he had a tallent for Spy craft. Elizabeth chose the line of work. Phillip fell into it because it was his best chance for survival. Edited April 5, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

So, all that is to say, while absolutely loving, loving, loving the show (seriously, it's the best ever), I do wish they would speak to Philip's motivation at some point. All it would take is a flashback scene to a time when he saw the underlying good in the cause (personally saw it, I mean). But so far that hasn't happened. So he ends up looking like someone caught between a rock and hard place a lot - only I'm not sure exactly why he feels fully stuck there. I understand the tension from the one side, but not the other.

 

I don't know that Philip even remembers his initial motivation at this point. Or if he ever had a strong reason for it. I think his family was probably struggling to survive and when they recruited him as a teenager, he didn't think saying no was an option.

And his quality of living (aside from the learn-how-to-sleep-with-everyone training, I guess) probably improved by a lot when the Centre took an interest in grooming him for espionage.

Now he's just trapped, and the Centre trying to force Paige into business has really turned him sour on the whole thing. His discontent has grown over time, but I don't think he ever had a strong passion for "the cause."

 

 

I think Philip was basically an orphan living on the street and fighting bigger kids for milk. The KGB offered him stability and he had a tallent for Spy craft. Elizabeth chose the line of work. Phillip fell into it because it was his best chance for survival.

 

 

Answering in the Philip thread.

[SlovakPrincess]

Re watching now for fun .... ha! At Young-Hee making fun of cabbage patch dolls and how they look like they were hit by a truck.

LOL, as a child of the 80s who lived through the cabbage patch craze. Those things were ... not cute.

[SlackerInc]

I really love the show too.  It's so underrated, IMO.  It gives me lots of reasons to think.  I wonder if that is why many viewers don't care for it. lol 

 

It may be underrated by the general public (based on the low Nielsen ratings), and by Emmy voters (who only seem to give Margo Martindale nominations), but it's certainly not underrated by critics.  Hitfix polls more than 50 TV critics and averages their rankings to make a master Top 10 list.  The Americans has made the top ten every year, and on the most recent list, they nabbed the #2 spot, second only to Fargo (and, impressively, ahead of the final season of Mad Men, which was #3).  It's a great show, and the experts know it.

Edited April 6, 2016 by SlackerInc

[crgirl412]

Even kids of today who have an unstable home life, see little hope in education and/or don't do well in school are ripe to get into gangs then go on to lives of crime winding up dead or in prison.  That sense of belonging and "family" are what the gangs offer to them.

 

I can see why it was fairly easy for Mischa to be easily lead into this type of life especially if you are getting fed good food, warm clothes and a decent place to live when you are an orphan and little by little these luxuries are used to get one to do "almost" anything.     

[Darren]

Answering in the Philip thread.

But, that's the thing, I find Philip far less compelling (and slightly unbelievable) if he's doing this just because he "fell into it" as a result of a damaged childhood. What makes Elizabeth compelling as a character is that she REALLY believes in the cause. She's willing to bend over backwards, sacrificing herself time and time again because she's so passionate. That's easier for me to understand and resonate with than Philip, who kills innocents merely because... what... it's his job? In that light he's no better than a hired hitman. If he doesn't believe in the underlying idealogical principles then he's far less compelling than Elizabeth.  And to be honest, if he really doesn't believe in the underlying cause then I don't even find it believable that Elizabeth would love him. She's a die-hard of the highest order.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Darren

[sistermagpie]

But, that's the thing, I find Philip far less compelling (and slightly unbelievable) if he's doing this just because he "fell into it" as a result of a damaged childhood. What makes Elizabeth compelling as a character is that she REALLY believes in the cause. She's willing to bend over backwards, sacrificing herself time and time again because she's so passionate. That's easier for me to understand and resonate with than Philip, who kills innocents merely because... what... it's his job? In that light he's no better than a hired hitman. If he doesn't believe in the underlying idealogical principles then he's far less compelling than Elizabeth.  And to be honest, if he really doesn't believe in the underlying cause then I don't even find it believable that Elizabeth would love him. She's a die-hard of the highest order.

 

 

 

Answering in the Philizabeth thread...

 

but short version is I totally agree. I don't think he fell into it and I think he believes in the cause. He even said so in this ep: All of it matters.

[Darren]

Answering in the Philizabeth thread...

 

but short version is I totally agree. I don't think he fell into it and I think he believes in the cause. He even said so in this ep: All of it matters.

You're right. He did say that. And in that moment I was like - tell me more! It matters... how? Why? Come one, give me some more of Philip's motivation! I hope they explore this more in future episodes. He's too genuine a guy to do this only because he's told to. So I want to know more. 

[Darren]

Question: Can anyone remember even one derogatory comment Philip's made about the American style of government? I can't think of one off the top of my head. And that's partly what irks me. 

[sistermagpie]

Question: Can anyone remember even one derogatory comment Philip's made about the American style of government? I can't think of one off the top of my head. And that's partly what irks me.

 

 

I can't think of any Elizabeth's made either, actually.

 

ETA: Actually, one moment I really loved was the scene in S1 when Philip and the kids were in the motel room and Philip started to explain what capitalism was. It was very neutral, just a straight definition, but it was kind of great hearing him say it.

Edited April 6, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Darren]

I can't think of any Elizabeth's made either, actually.

 

ETA: Actually, one moment I really loved was the scene in S1 when Philip and the kids were in the motel room and Philip started to explain what capitalism was. It was very neutral, just a straight definition, but it was kind of great hearing him say it.

Off the top of my head here: Elizabeth has specifically criticized Reagan. She's also made comments about bringing up a teenager "in this country", strongly hinting the priorities are way off. And she took Paige down to the hood to talk about social justice first hand.

 

She also specifically said, after Philip said positive things about the US, that "'easier' doesn't mean 'better'".

Edited April 6, 2016 by Darren

[sistermagpie]

Off the top of my head here: Elizabeth has specifically criticized Reagan. She's also made comments about bringing up a teenager "in this country", strongly hinting the priorities are way off. And she took Paige down to the hood to talk about social justice first hand.

 

 

Ah--I was thinking of things where she talked about theories of government or capitalism etc. Elizabeth's definitely made plenty of comments that are putting down the US. Sometimes they're even pushing it. Like when they first arrived Philip said it wasn't the same as what you read in books just even at first glance and Elizabeth said there was a "weakness" in the people that she could feel already. Or she also complained to Zhukov that American children at age 3 went to "play groups" to "play"--as if this was some foreign concept to Russian children. 

 

But I can't think of anything Philip's ever said himself where he really criticized anything in the US. He agreed when Elizabeth pointed out that however nice her life was in Falls Church there were people not far away who were struggling. But when Elizabeth said "Do you hear the way they talk about us?" he asked if she heard the way she talked about them. 

[MaryPatShelby]

 (Witness Protection, for those of you who didn't watch "In Plain Sight". LOL)

 

 

God, I loved that show...>daydreams about Marshall Mann for a minute< .. Ok, I'm back.

 

I think that Elizabeth has become "Patty" the Mary Kay newbie in order to gain access to Young-Hee's family, specifically her brother, Don, (wine guy.) Don could be the key to get to Level 4 of the Bio Lab and Elizabeth will take advantage of him being more "Americanized" than most of his family and start a relationship with him. And we all know how irresistible Elizabeth is when she turns on the charm! 

This was exactly my thought as well.  We were shown P&E being given a list of people at the bio company with Level 4 security clearance, and shortly after introduced to Young Hee and then her family, so it made sense to me that this new relationship was based on the Level 4 list.

 

Ok, now, could someone please explain to me WHY Nina gave her "husband" that note?  What was she trying to accomplish; did she want to go back to the gulag and be punished some more?  I'm not crazy about her story and even less so when it doesn't seem to make sense.

[jjj]

Nina seems to have found some higher, idealistic calling in helping the scientist, even endangering herself.  She seems to think she was doomed (although she seemed to be moving closer to freedom, from our perspective), and getting a note to the scientist's son was a redeeming act. It's been fascinating to see how fragile she has become in appearance; not even thinner, just looking like a puff of wind would carry her off. 

 

I do think Nina's story will get drawn back into the main story before the end of this season; the writers would not still be including scenes from the Soviet Union unless it would be leading somewhere.  I did find it interesting to see how the work Philip/Elizabeth did to get the intelligence paid off back at the Soviet Union research facility.  And in a real way -- showing the hard work of actually creating technology, instead of rolling out a shiny new plane. 

[Umbelina]

I think Nina's a dead woman walking.

 

Also, I think Elizabeth's motivation was being the child of a traitor, she was predisposed to embrace everything Soviet, to remove that taint of suspicion about her dad, and it started very young.

[jjj]

I think Nina's a dead woman walking.

I think that is a distinct possibility, and that is what might connect her storyline back to the main characters in the USA.  I just don't think her scenes are random. 

[SlovakPrincess]

Ok, now, could someone please explain to me WHY Nina gave her "husband" that note? What was she trying to accomplish; did she want to go back to the gulag and be punished some more? I'm not crazy about her story and even less so when it doesn't seem to make sense.

I think she actually thought she could get the note to Anton's son and was willing to take the risk.

She still feels guilty about screwing over the Begian girl imprisoned with her last season, I think. And when Anton basically called her out on "monitoring" him for the higher ups, she said something like "I can't keep buying back my freedom" ... i.e., turning on other innocent people so her sentence would be lessened / commuted. Then, they became actual friends and Anton told her how horrible it is that his son has no idea what happened to him.

I think she took the risk to help Anton because the price of freedom (basically her soul) isn't worth it to her anymore.

I get it, and good for Nina ... but it's sad to watch her have to make these decisions.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SlovakPrincess

[queenanne]

I don't think it's just a "bureaucracy" thing - it has more to do with keeping track of what potentially secure or sensitive items are copied.  If you copy something, you have to record it to ensure some (Martha...) isn't making copies and passing them along to others.

 

I thought it was like billing copies to different client matter numbers in a law firm, and figured Martha could just say "general" or something to get around it.  I find the fact that even the FBI would count actual literal pages to be specious.  What if they, for example, need to Xerox their own IDs for applications?  Surely they have to be able to do something without proving why they're doing it.

 

I really enjoyed Young He and the Mary Kay hijinks!

 

When William met Philip and Elizabeth in the park and urged them not to give him the Level 4 security code if they had it, that clicked for me...they must be going after Young He's husband's security code.  I hope they don't have to hurt him or Young He and her family in any way - love them. 

 

My prediction is upon the wine-loving brother.  Elizabeth seemed to eye-contact him a little fixedly for anything in the area of normal politesse.

 

I really think the most realistic option is to kill Paige, although I doubt the show would go there. The children were initially supposed to be not more than props to keep up the whole normal American family rouse. Then the Centre thought they could use the children to be second generation spies. Now that that's not working and Paige is a problem, they need to get rid of her.

 

Yeah, I'm not down with the opinion of the critic mentioned upstream, about how Paige is showing the makings of a great spy with this teenage drivel.  I mean, I think she's very "spawn of her parents" in her behavior and reactions, but I don't think that's the same thing.  

 

I can also see the Center deciding to work with and off of Henry instead, who is conveying "model spy" makings.  Video game targets = shooting lessons; we know he's got subtle breaking-and-entering down; he's best friends with the FBI agent across the street.  Etc.

Edited April 9, 2016 by queenanne

[sistermagpie]

Surely they have to be able to do something without proving why they're doing it.

 

 

It actually makes sense they couldn't under the circumstances. They know there's a mole in the office so having to log every single copy and connect it to a person seems like basic common sense. Martha could probably say "general" but there'd still be a paper trail saying that Martha made copies of surveillance reports because...why?

 

Yeah, I'm not down with the opinion of the critic mentioned upstream, about how Paige is showing the makings of a great spy with this teenage drivel.  I mean, I think she's very "spawn of her parents" in her behavior and reactions, but I don't think that's the same thing.

 

 

Seriously, teenagers lie all the time. It's not some unusual thing for that age. Many of them lie very very well. Paige is a particularly bad liar. Her being able to come up with a cover story for Stan after many years of listening to her parents' cover stories is not impressive, her nervousness about it even less so.

Edited April 9, 2016 by sistermagpie

[BetyBee]

The bizarre thing about the official atheism and repression of religion in the USSR is that now that Putin's in charge of Mother Russia, people are getting sent to prison just for expressing their atheism online (like it's Saudi Arabia or something).  This despite the fact that Putin has made no secret of his feeling that the collapse of the USSR was a tragedy!

 

 

No, handlers are hooked in to the phone network the KGB connects through that basement deal.  Which is how Larrick found and killed their former handler--but as long as a superman like him isn't involved, it can convincingly spoof various origins including the vice president's office as seen in S1 (I believe).

 

 

I don't agree.  Why do those need to be "resolved"?  What does that even mean?  Those are just sources they either used or are still using.

 

 

I agree with you in principle.  But the illegal they had on last week's podcast said he had been discovered due to the Mitrokhin Archive, a vast resource of information from KGB files that the UK got from a defector in 1992 (and presumably shared with the U.S., at least to some degree).  But check out the story (per Wikipedia) of how it ended up in British rather than American hands:

 

 

Oh, man, would I love to know what happened to those CIA officers who sent him away.  Oops.

They were probably promoted!  Pardon me - my own bitter work experiences color my thoughts.

Edited April 10, 2016 by BetyBee

[Inquisitionist]

Did I miss something? What's the purpose of Young Hee?

 

Just rewatched the previous episode (4-2) in which Gabriel discussed the importance of getting William access to Level 4 at the facility where he works (William is currently cleared only to level 3).  Gabriel gave Elizabeth a list of people to try to get close to for this mission.  Young Hee would seem to be the avenue Elizabeth is working, but we don't get know whether the ultimate target is her husband or someone else in her immediate circle.

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 10:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

When it comes to her parents Paige seems to be only focused on personal failings. Like when she's talking to Elizabeth about Elizabeth's activist past int he 60s and she says "but you can't just go around robbing banks" or how she's so focused on Gregory being "the drug dealer." So it's almost like when she's asking about people getting hurt she's not even thinking something like "If you give defense plans to the Soviets America will not be as protected" or "I want you to lose the war in Afghanistan" but "Did you STEAL these plans?" or "Did you lie to someone to get these plans and did they get in trouble?" "Would you hit somebody if they tried to stop you from getting this?" or whatever.

 

On ‎31‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 6:25 AM, sistermagpie said:

Speaking of which, I sometimes don't get why P&E don't just tell Paige "None of your business" about what they do. She doesn't have security clearance, the KGB isn't going to run their classified operations through her or her pastor, and she's already proven herself to be untrustworthy. How many times does she expect to go through the same cycle of I'm an adult and deserve to know/It's too hard so I told/I'm guilty I told/Oops I can't believe he told? I know her questions about where Philip goes two nights a week were threatening but she could really learn from Martha. Don't ask what you don't want to know, Paige.

 

On ‎31‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 5:31 PM, sistermagpie said:

I can see that about things like "do people get hurt?" but questions like "Where does dad go two nights a week" are unreasonable imo. If her parents were in the CIA it would be totally normal to say look, this is government work and it's not something we can share with everyone. On the one hand I totally get why they're just trying to not make her angry and upset by telling her stuff (just like Pastor Tim--she's like Little Anthony in that Twilight Zone ep!) but otoh I don't think it's necessarily wrong to start hinting to her that she's not the center of the universe. I mean, in this case it's not them saying "We won't tell you" it's them saying "There are certain things we are not allowed to tell." Just like Pastor Tim wouldn't be able to tell his kid anything they wanted to know about what he was doing in his job. She can know the basics (he's with a source) but not details of his relationship with the source (even if it wasn't a secret wife). Especially since she's already not only blown their cover but claimed it was unfair of them to expect her to keep it.

I agree with your analysis about Paige.

Plus, she doesn't seem to understand that the more she knows, the more she must lie to Henry, Pastor Tim and other people. And the more she knows, the more she may endanger her family. Is she really so sure that she can be alert all the time and not to slip anything? Not to speak of the possible situation that P&E are caught - it would be better to her the less she knows.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎4‎.‎2016 at 9:55 PM, tennisgurl said:

I loved Paige's riotous indignation about Pastor Tim telling his wife her secret. You could actually see some Elizabeth in there, but with less killer instinct. 

 

On ‎2‎.‎4‎.‎2016 at 8:43 PM, sistermagpie said:

P & E trusted Paige with info and she told on them. She trusted Pastor Tim, who told his wife. That situation also has the added complication that she really didn't tell him things as a friend, but also in his professional capacity as a pastor. Personally, I would totally consider it a breach of trust that he told his wife. There are many situations in which you would not be surprised if your friend told their spouse something and might trust that it would go no further than that because the spousal relationship works that way. In Pastor Tim's case, though, people are coming to him as a pastor and I doubt he's warned them that he considers his wife part of the position. I imagine they see him more like a therapist who isn't supposed to tell your business to their spouse. (At least not in an uncensored way where they use your name and details etc.) Alice must know tons of stuff about parishioners they don't know she knows.

I find weird that Pastor Tim defended himself that he and Alice are "pastors to each other" (I don't know what it was in English) and he couldn't cope otherwise. If one tells something confidential to a priest or a therapist, one assumes that he/she keeps it secret. Sharing it with one's spouse is completely unprofessional. And if a priest wants to make a confession to another priest (not to a spouse as he can't give neutral advice), it must deal about one's problems, not those of others!  

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎.‎4‎.‎2016 at 10:41 PM, jjj said:

Nina seems to have found some higher, idealistic calling in helping the scientist, even endangering herself.  She seems to think she was doomed (although she seemed to be moving closer to freedom, from our perspective), and getting a note to the scientist's son was a redeeming act. It's been fascinating to see how fragile she has become in appearance; not even thinner, just looking like a puff of wind would carry her off. 

 

On ‎7‎.‎4‎.‎2016 at 7:42 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

I think she actually thought she could get the note to Anton's son and was willing to take the risk.

She still feels guilty about screwing over the Begian girl imprisoned with her last season, I think. And when Anton basically called her out on "monitoring" him for the higher ups, she said something like "I can't keep buying back my freedom" ... i.e., turning on other innocent people so her sentence would be lessened / commuted. Then, they became actual friends and Anton told her how horrible it is that his son has no idea what happened to him.

I think she took the risk to help Anton because the price of freedom (basically her soul) isn't worth it to her anymore.

I get it, and good for Nina ... but it's sad to watch her have to make these decisions.

I agree you both.

Nina was always been a person whose true motivation has been hardest to see. After she betrayed the Belgian girl I believed that she would do anything evil to others in order to save herself from prison. But I was wrong: she couldn't stand herself for falling so low and tried to redemption with a completely selfless act. It failed and she endangered her life - but saved her soul.

I find fine that we see in the show relationship between man and woman that lack sex and self-interest: Philip - Sandra, Anton - Nina. Especially as sex was Nina's one of two assets, the other being to make men trust in her.      

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I find weird that Pastor Tim defended himself that he and Alice are "pastors to each other" (I don't know what it was in English) and he couldn't cope otherwise. If one tells something confidential to a priest or a therapist, one assumes that he/she keeps it secret. Sharing it with one's spouse is completely unprofessional. And if a priest wants to make a confession to another priest (not to a spouse as he can't give neutral advice), it must deal about one's problems, not those of others!  

Exactly. At least if you're going to do that you should make it clear to everyone that whatever you say to him is going to his wife too, since even Paige herself notes that Alice is a blabbermouth who says "I shouldn't say this..." right before saying something she shouldn't say. If therapists don't talk to their spouses about their patients why should a pastor?

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 9:54 PM, Umbelina said:

"Do people get hurt, because of what you're involved with?"  "Of course not, no."

Paige is supposed to be smart.  There were TONS of spy novels out there, and the country was in the final, news making death throws, and Reagan was calling them the "Evil Empire" any chance he got.  The cold war had been going on for 40 years, sorry, but I have a hard time believing that she was completely unaware, and didn't bother doing any research once she found out about her parents.

 

On ‎25‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 10:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

I honestly can't tell where Paige is supposed to stand on this. In season 1 she did have moments of casually mentioning this sort of thing to show that she had the standard US view--she wrote a paper on how the Soviets cheated on arms control and said Poland was "part of Russia." 

She's since become a lot more politically active, but in a very different way from her parents. She seems focused on stuff like the US having nukes, the US divesting in SA, but she doesn't seem interested in the chess game of the Cold War. But still, at that time you didn't need to have an interest in that to have an idea about what was going on. You didn't have to think of Russia as evil to think of them as the bad guys.

When it comes to her parents Paige seems to be only focused on personal failings. Like when she's talking to Elizabeth about Elizabeth's activist past int he 60s and she says "but you can't just go around robbing banks" or how she's so focused on Gregory being "the drug dealer." So it's almost like when she's asking about people getting hurt she's not even thinking something like "If you give defense plans to the Soviets America will not be as protected" or "I want you to lose the war in Afghanistan" but "Did you STEAL these plans?" or "Did you lie to someone to get these plans and did they get in trouble?" "Would you hit somebody if they tried to stop you from getting this?" or whatever.

Of course Pastor Tim talks about it this way too, but it's possible that in his case he's just moving her in the "evil Empire" direction. Do people get hurt? How many ways could people get hurt? Her parents are obviously involved in war in the traditional sense. Their actions can have consequences on the battle field.

Btw, someone somewhere else mentioned that in Pastor Tim he had a pamphlet on his desk re: El Salvador, I believe, which makes one wonder if he's interested in Liberation Theology. They wondered if that might be foreshadowing that he could find common ground. In that case one wonders if he himself might want to get involved if people didn't get hurt doing it?

 

On ‎27‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 10:53 PM, sistermagpie said:

Really, this whole idea has been central since Elizabeth started to try to bring her in. She talked about her and Philip and Gregory being activists and led right off with the fact that they broke the law. And Paige disagreed with that, saying you can't just go around robbing banks and rejecting Gregory as any kind of hero when she saw he was a drug dealer. But Elizabeth's probably not down for the count on this, imo. She doesn't want her daughter to see her as a monster but I think if pushed she wouldn't be able to stop herself from expressing her true opinion--and Philip's too--that somebody like Pastor Tim is a poser. When it comes down to it, P&E are soldiers and he's not.

 

On ‎30‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 11:58 PM, Chaos Theory said:

It's Reagan Era America. That is the exact opposite of what she is being taught in class.

Paige believes her parents are good people because she has to. The alternative is just too much for her to bear and understand right now. People believe what they need to. It is as simple and uncomplicated as that. It is why Martha believed Clarke for so long and it is why Paige will believe her parents.

 

On ‎31‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 2:44 PM, Umbelina said:

Spies did kill people though, it's true that our embedded spies (that we know of, but they didn't know then) didn't, but there is no way Paige would know that they are too valuable for that.  The show's conceit actually has them doing the kind of work Arkady's embassy people would really be doing, stealing missile plans, but maybe a tiny chance that they'd use them to hand of poisons, but I really even doubt that.  Embedded spies jobs were to identify and recruit or get themselves into jobs where there was some kind of way to get information.  For example, yeah, Philip and Martha, real thing, could  have easily happened, ditto Kimmie, and the suitcase girl, some of Elizabeth's people (probably the one she's working on now, or someone related to her.)  THEN, once they have them secure enough to begin actual work, they might continue to handle them, BUT, the actual intel they get or things like B&E and planting bugs in offices, or taking someone dangerous out?  Probably handed off to Arkady's spies.  Not because they couldn't do those things, but because it just wasn't worth the risk, they were much too valuable, or rather their cover was.

But it's fun to have them go off the reservation so I don't care.  Ha.

"Do you ever hurt people?"  "NO, Of COURSE NOT!" as they hand off a poison that could destroy countless lives...or missile defense plans that could wipe out the USA. 

I think that Paige's question "Do you ever hurt people?" and Pastor Tim's insistence to ponder only this side of the dilemma misses the essential points.

As is said above, unlike in the series, killers were mostly different people than spies. Spies's job was, among others, to get secret material or infomation, recruit other people to get it or influence the decisions or general opinion through so called influence agents and even those deeds weren't done by same persons, not to speak of fetching things. (Also, in Western societies, much valuable materials were for all to see even in dailies  or one could get it by discussing influental people. But  whitout proper analysis it would be worthless and wrong analysis would lead to injurious effects.)

Let's take one example: the military secrets that were handed to the enemy obviously hurt the country's security and therefore can hurt the whole population (not some indiviaduals as Paige and Pastor Tim think). However, what if one thinks that one's country's policy is wrong, f.ex. in teaching contras? Or what if a scientist thinks it would better if both sides had the same weapons, so that both didn't dare to use them?

Generally, I think that a person has a right to make his/her own choices about right and wrong, to whom he/she is loyal and not. But at the same a state has also a right to defend itself and catch and punish him/her.  

In Paige and  Pastor Tim's case, they are making decisions solely on the basis of ideals without enough information.  

[Roseanna]

Continueing: one of the problem's of the spy's work is that he/she can't never know how the material and information is used. Information is useless if its value is not understood (f.ex. Philip's message about Reagan's assassination). There are usually much information from various sources and different value (f.ex the mail robot).

Although the enemy's spying is considered wrong by ordinary people, actually some spying is necessary to prevent wrong decisions based on bad information.  Stalin was famous for trusting not public utterance if not backed by secret information. His weakness was that he wanted to read his spies's reports and make the analysis that he made on the basis of his ideology. Of course the blame of decisions that proved to be wrong was still never his. But at least he could change the course and did it swiftly.   

[Umbelina]

They know they've killed people, the bodies really pile up on this show.  That includes innocent people, like dishwashers and little old ladies.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They know they've killed people, the bodies really pile up on this show.  That includes innocent people, like dishwashers and little old ladies.

Yes, tha's called collateral damage when one bombs and innocent people die.  

What's the difference? When"we" do it, it's right, but  when "they" do it, it's wrong?

[Umbelina]

No.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  The entire point is the lied to their daughter, after promising not to lie to her. 

 

It was wrong when Stan killed that newbie KGB agent as well.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The entire point is the lied to their daughter, after promising not to lie to her.

But it would be more wrong not to lie. The more P&E tell to Paige, the more they endanger her, both because of KGB and the American justice system.

I don't believe in defitive moral rules regardless of the result. 

[Umbelina]

It's about breaking promises.  Go ahead and lie, but don't promise your own child, who is already completely gobsmacked and struggling, that you will never lie to her and then immediately lie to her.

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It's about breaking promises.  Go ahead and lie, but don't promise your own child, who is already completely gobsmacked and struggling, that you will never lie to her and then immediately lie to her.

It was stupid to promise that. But Paige isn't blameless. She insists to know "the truth" without realizing that it makes her a part of conspiracy.

It's in a way funny how much Elizabeth presses on the family as in Stalin's time the children's ideal was Pavel Morozov who denounced his father.  

[sistermagpie]

On 8/9/2017 at 5:05 PM, Umbelina said:

It's about breaking promises.  Go ahead and lie, but don't promise your own child, who is already completely gobsmacked and struggling, that you will never lie to her and then immediately lie to her.

Tangent, but it's funny that I'm reading this right after watching an ep of Mad Men with commentary. MW comments on a scene between Don and Sally and says how it's all about how Don is now talking to her like an adult and explains that he's not going to lie to her.

And then he lies to her.

And in both cases it's sort of similar. The parents are telling the kid a truth they didn't tell them before, so in some ways they've stopped lying. But it's only a partial truth and the part they leave out is covered with a flat-out lie.

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's in a way funny how much Elizabeth presses on the family as in Stalin's time the children's ideal was Pavel Morozov who denounced his father.  

It is really interesting that she does that since she herself has had such a conflict about her loyalty to the family all along. More and more it seems clear that she holds them above everything, but to listen to her talk to Paige you'd think she could never imagine putting anything above family.