Unspoilered Speculation

[Kromm]

If you HATE spoilers, but still want to speculate on what's coming with the show, here's the place.  Or if you post in both this topic and the Spoiled Speculation topics don't cross-pollinate between them--keep them as totally separate conversations following the proper rules of each topic.  

So.. no spoilers here.  And if you guess something BASED on spoilers, if you can't explain the guess without revealing a spoiler, then post it in the other topic. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kromm

[MarkHB]

I hate spoilers, but at the same time I don't really consider things such as the official character bios in this article to be spoilers (they're just the capsule descriptions of Gordon, Alfred, Selina, Cobblepot and Bullock), even if the URL in this case claims they are.  So, absent the clear "previews and official releases from the producers aren't spoilers" rule TWoP had, what does anyone else here think?  I'd be fine with copying those capsule bios into the character threads as fair use (it's a press release, after all) if we don't consider them technically spoilers.

[Kromm]

I hate spoilers, but at the same time I don't really consider things such as the official character bios in this article to be spoilers (they're just the capsule descriptions of Gordon, Alfred, Selina, Cobblepot and Bullock), even if the URL in this case claims they are.  So, absent the clear "previews and official releases from the producers aren't spoilers" rule TWoP had, what does anyone else here think?  I'd be fine with copying those capsule bios into the character threads as fair use (it's a press release, after all) if we don't consider them technically spoilers.

One distinction I made between the two topics (for now at least) was between character promo stuff out there via the producers, vs. "leaked" stuff via set photos. 

Another line I drew--but I guess we can change it by consensus and/or if a mod says so--was that if a character name simply appeared in a place like IMDB, but hasn't been supported by any kind of studio/producer promotion, then it seems vague spoilerish.  The mere inclusion of some characters tells you about likely plot directions.  Pictures of the actors involved does too (age, for example, does with this project).  If the producers put it out there explicitly, that;s one thing. If the character names and actors leaked through the Hollywood cracks to make their way to IMDB, various blogs, and news sites, that may be another.  

I think.  

[MarkHB]

I can agree with those principles. 

[Chip]

That sounds OK with me for now. Let's not put any more character names or plot points in the topic titles that might spoil someone, but as long as something has a spoiler tag on it, I think we can talk about whatever we want inside the thread.

[Kromm]

That sounds OK with me for now. Let's not put any more character names or plot points in the topic titles that might spoil someone, but as long as something has a spoiler tag on it, I think we can talk about whatever we want inside the thread.

Initially (because I made the preliminary character threads) I only did them for the characters who had those promo poster things released by FOX.  That said, I think we've gotten the end of the list of characters they're going to do those for, so going forward it's probably enough if the character has been spoken about in a press release, or by the producer in an interview, or by the actor talking to the media, etc.

[Chip]

I get it. As long as they don't have a Stephanie Brown in IMDB, I think we are safe for now.

[Kromm]

I get it. As long as they don't have a Stephanie Brown in IMDB, I think we are safe for now.

Heh.

Putting aside the impossible thing with her age, of course, I'd say that of all the possible character additions, that one would actually say the least about the show direction (in other words there are characters far more "connected" to Gordon, Bruce Wayne or Batman who may or may not appear and affect their early lives with much heavier weight).

[Kromm]

Okay, here's an odd totally unsupported idea/fear I had.

While overall I'm generally positive about this show I have a fear that they're going to reach so deep for "tie-ins" to later Batman that we'll get a few really ridiculous things.

One I'm fully expecting to see is young Bruce (or possibly Gordon) run into The Flying Graysons, on some previous Circus visit to Gotham years before.  Perhaps with the Grandparents of Dick Grayson running that act, and Dick's father John as a teenager trying to get the attention of Mary.  The timing works out about right to have Dick's parents be a few years older than Bruce, so this is an obvious story (but heavyhanded if they do it).

[Tableau]

First trailer for the series.

[MarkHB]

Extended version of the trailer.  Wow.  They haven't f*cked it up.

 

Confirms young Poison Ivy, incidentally.

 

And we have a series!

[Tenshinhan]

I liked this trailer somewhat.  I liked the grittiness of it, and the look.  

 

I liked what I saw of Ben McKenzie and Donal Logue, and the dialogue about war.

 

What I didn't like was the CGI shots of the city.  Too much like a video game, and kind of takes away from the grittiness.  I wish they had just shot around Manhattan and kept things natural.

 

But what I really disliked was the "Before Penguin/Catwoman/Riddler/Ivy" junk at the end there.  Totally embarrassing to me, and I think it does this series and the Batman mythos a disservice.  

Edited May 6, 2014 by Tenshinhan

[Chip]

But what I really disliked was the "Before Penguin/Catwoman/Riddler/Ivy" junk at the end there.  Totally embarrassing to me, and I think it does this series and the Batman mythos a disservice.  

 

I think they kind of had to have that to make it obvious to a lot of people who might not have caught on. Surprising to fans, but a lot of people might not have put the references together to get, "Ohhh, Batman."

[MarkHB]

Note the Easter Egg in this shot ;).

Also: the New York stuff.  That skyline in some shots is too obviously Manhattan, so it makes me wonder if they're positioning Gotham as essentially a "twin city" to NYC.... as if the consolidation had never happened and Brooklyn (with or without part of Queens) had become a genuine rival to New York itself.  I know it's been set up that way in some of the comics in the past.

[Tableau]

I really like the look of Penguin. I think he has the potential to be a really interesting character.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Tableau

[Kromm]

Those trailers look like they've nailed this.

 

That said, it's depressing in a way to know ahead of time that our "hero", Gordon, pretty much fails all around.  Oh sure we know he can't die.  We know he gets promoted eventually.  But we also know he never gets the guy who killed Bruce's parents. and we also know that Batman is only even necessary because the city is even MORE fucked up by that time than when this show is set.

[Tenshinhan]

But what I really disliked was the "Before Penguin/Catwoman/Riddler/Ivy" junk at the end there.  Totally embarrassing to me, and I think it does this series and the Batman mythos a disservice.  

 

I think they kind of had to have that to make it obvious to a lot of people who might not have caught on. Surprising to fans, but a lot of people might not have put the references together to get, "Ohhh, Batman."

 

What I meant was that I dislike the fact that those characters are even a part of this series in the first place.  I think it hurts the show's potential.

 

That said, it's depressing in a way to know ahead of time that our "hero", Gordon, pretty much fails all around.  Oh sure we know he can't die.  We know he gets promoted eventually.  But we also know he never gets the guy who killed Bruce's parents. and we also know that Batman is only even necessary because the city is even MORE fucked up by that time than when this show is set.

 

I don't really look at it this way.  I mean, Gordon is just one cop in a city full of criminal activity.  There's only so much he can do to rid the city of crime.  I don't see that as a failure.  It's just a reality of crime in society.  I don't think that Gotham has to be any worse by the time that the Batman appears.  It's just that the Batman's presence makes things better.  He's the "light" that Gordon refers to in the trailer.  Now that I think about, in this series, Gordon could be the one whose actions ultimately inspire Bruce to become the Batman.

 

Also, regarding the Wayne murders, I can see Gordon and the police catching the person or persons responsible eventually.  In classic Batman continuity, Batman eventually does find his parents' killers and closes that case, but I don't think that it would be a big deal if you had it solved earlier here.  The Waynes' murderer being brought to justice, while notable, only has but so much impact on the Batman mythos in my opinion.

[Kromm]

In classic Batman continuity, Batman eventually does find his parents' killers and closes that case

 

I believe that's only happened in ONE instance of Batman, among all media, and among all of the reboots and semi-reboots in the comic itself.  So on balance it's pretty unlikely it ever gets solved, because of that.  The actual shooter even varies, between an anonymous nobody, to a criminal named Joe Chill, to the guy who eventually becomes the Joker.

[Tableau]

I think they're going to catch the killer though it might take a season or two. Whether they catch the guy or not, it doesn't have much of an impact on Batman mythology. The point is is that Bruce Wayne's parents are dead and they were shot in front of him by a criminal.

[Tenshinhan]

I believe that's only happened in ONE instance of Batman, among all media, and among all of the reboots and semi-reboots in the comic itself.  So on balance it's pretty unlikely it ever gets solved, because of that.  The actual shooter even varies, between an anonymous nobody, to a criminal named Joe Chill, to the guy who eventually becomes the Joker.

 

For the first fifty years or so of the comic book continuity, Batman does indeed find the killer and solves the Wayne murder case.  It was only in the last twenty or more years that they started to play around with the idea that the killer was never caught and "could still be out there...".  And as for the television and film adaptations, I believe that most of them have written the murders as being eventually solved as well, if they even addressed it at all.

 

Whether they catch the guy or not, it doesn't have much of an impact on Batman mythology. The point is is that Bruce Wayne's parents are dead and they were shot in front of him by a criminal.

 

This I agree is the more important point.

[Trini]

Think we'll get any cameos from other versions of Batman? I know it's kind of gimmicky, but Smallville had several actors from movies and Lois & Clark show up, and I thought that was fun. I mean, Adam West is still alive right? (::goes to wikipedia::) Whoa; I didn't know he's near 90!

[Chip]

I really hope Adam West is NOT in this, even as a cameo. But easter eggs and allusions to characters and such, I'm in for.

[MarkHB]

Smallville was fortunate enough to have Lois & Clark to draw from, as well as Chris Reeve.  Gotham has Adam West and Burt Ward, who represent a version of Batman that no one on the current show would want to be associated with, Christian Bale, who I think is safe to assume won't do it (at least right away), and probably wouldn't be asked lest people think he's Leonard Nimoy from the new Star Trek movies, and Val Kilmer and George Clooney (see above re: Adam West).  That leaves Michael Keaton, and yes, maybe he would do it, but certainly not right away.  (I didn't look, but I'm assuming that the men who played Batman in the 1940's movie serials have passed away, or else are very unavailable.)

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well, Val Kilmer did appear in an uncredited cameo on the series finale of Psych, so who knows if he'd show up.  And for a show that is purported to be about Gotham before Batman, well, having actors who have played him before...kinda takes away from that. With Smallville, the show was ABOUT a young Clark Kent, who would become Superman.

 

Eh. The more I hear and see, the less interested I am in watching.

[Trini]

Getting one of the other "Batmen" would be cool, but I was also thinking of other adjacent actors. But now that I think over the list (of the more famous actors from the movies), most of them are unlikely to appear on a network show. Chris O'Donnell is doing TV, but he's with a competing network/studio.

------

Anyway, I kind of hate that they have to(?) throw all these these characters/allusions in the first season (and probably the first episode). Or even have some of them here at all. To me, this seems like the perfect setup to gradually learn more about the character and characters of Gotham.

[darkestboy]

At the moment, I'm still more enthused for Gotham than Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice, which does look like a bit of a clusterfuck at the moment. Gotham will have to tow a line between being a police show and showing the origins of the characters but the trailers and cast for the show do have me enthused at the moment and most of the reviews seem to be fairly favourable as well at the moment.

[Tableau]

What about a role for Kevin Conroy, the voice of my childhood Batman in Batman the Animated Series and now the Arkham video game series? He hasn't done live action stuff in awhile but I would love to see him on the show.

[Athena]

Kevin Conroy is Batman and Bruce Wayne to me. Yes, other VAs and actors have done a good job, but he's my Batman so I'm all for him being in the show. Please.

[GHScorpiosRule]

This is the last  "live action" thing that Conroy has done. I always get a tummy ache from watching because I'm laughing so hard:

 

 

Mods, if this should go somewhere else, please move accordingly. Thanks!

Edited July 3, 2014 by GHScorpiosRule

[Kromm]

This is the last  "live action" thing that Conroy has done. I always get a tummy ache from watching because I'm laughing so hard:

 

 

Mods, if this should go somewhere else, please move accordingly. Thanks!

Maybe we need a "Gothan Wish List" topic, mods?

[The Crazed Spruce]

Maybe we need a "Gothan Wish List" topic, mods?

Ask, and ye shall receive. :)

[Styrofoam Tokyo]

Victoria Cartagena who will play Renee Montoya just recently got a twitter account and seemed to be having a great time talking with fans. I talked with her a couple times myself and she was very nice. Anyhow, her account is gone today. Does anyone know why? I am super excited to see Renee on my TV again as i know many others are as well. So anything like this worries me. Does this speak to some kind of trouble behind the scenes whith Cartagena and the show runners?

[Kromm]

Victoria Cartagena who will play Renee Montoya just recently got a twitter account and seemed to be having a great time talking with fans. I talked with her a couple times myself and she was very nice. Anyhow, her account is gone today. Does anyone know why? I am super excited to see Renee on my TV again as i know many others are as well. So anything like this worries me. Does this speak to some kind of trouble behind the scenes whith Cartagena and the show runners?

Her being silenced for talking too much, or too publicly, doesn't necessarily mean her job is in danger.  If anything it could mean if she feels pressured or "squashed" or over-controlled she may walk when her contract is up.  

 

The one big concern is that Renee Montoya is a character who doesn't "fit" in this setting.  She's closely associated with the characters of Crispus Allen and Harvey Bullock.  But both her AND Allen belong to a later Gotham in the books, set twenty years after all of this, with Montoya being Bullock's hesitant young partner, Allen being her later partner, and a gray haired Jim Gordon being her boss/mentor.  So that unseats Montoya from any expectation of being "safe" in terms of the writers not deciding to eventually kill her character.  THIS version of her character is eminently killable (although Crispus Allen is even MORE killable).

[Styrofoam Tokyo]

Yeah. You make good points. Fingers crossed! :(

[MarkHB]

I have a hunch that Montoya and Allen came about on the show because someone said "we need more cops; go through the books and find some more cop names, preferably ethnically diverse since most of the leads are established as white."  I don't know that that makes them cannon fodder, but I'd be surprised if they are fleshed out in any meaningful way any time in S1, and that includes references to Montoya's sexuality.

So far as the Twitter account goes, was it certified?  Are you sure it wasn't an imposter that got quashed?

[Styrofoam Tokyo]

I thought about the imposter angle but this account seemed very legit. It was followed by the Gotham twitter account and several of the actors for the show. Also the tweets were friendly but restrained. Not like someone looking to get anything out of having a fake account or someone screwing around. Everything from the pictures posted to the tweets seemed real and right to me. Very strange.

[Styrofoam Tokyo]

Her twitter is back and certified. :) https://twitter.com/VickiCartagena

[Trini]

I would have thought that we'd see Harvey Dent before kid!Ivy, since in some continuities he was a classmate of Bruce.

And since we're dealing with the childhood of Bruce Wayne I'm surprised Leslie Thompkins(sp?) hasn't been cast.

[Trini]

There's got to be a Halloween episode, right? Unless the writers feel that talking about Bruce and his (future?) relationship to masks/costumes is too obvious.

[Jediknight]

Since the pilot was saying that someone ordered the hit on the Waynes, my guess is it's either Oswald or Roman Sionis' father.

 

Oswald so he can start a war between the crime groups and take control ousting Fish in the process, and because he hates the Waynes.  Sionis' father because he hates the Waynes, and the whole thing about the killer wearing a black mask and shiny shoes.  That could definitely be how they bring in Black Mask.

[scarynikki12]

Black Mask would actually be a cool choice, but I'd have him be the man behind the murder.  Let him be both involved in the existing criminal underworld and lay the foundation for what he will become.  Actually, I need to stop thinking about this because I'm going to convince myself that he's involved and will end up disappointed if he's not.

[Kel Varnsen]

There's got to be a Halloween episode, right? Unless the writers feel that talking about Bruce and his (future?) relationship to masks/costumes is too obvious.

That would be cool, I wonder if there is any chance we might see Falcone's son Alberto?

 

I believe that's only happened in ONE instance of Batman, among all media, and among all of the reboots and semi-reboots in the comic itself.  So on balance it's pretty unlikely it ever gets solved, because of that.  The actual shooter even varies, between an anonymous nobody, to a criminal named Joe Chill, to the guy who eventually becomes the Joker.

Considering that Tim Burton was able to change things to make The Joker the killer, I can't see it being that big a deal to have the killer be caught by Gordon in this show. Especially if it is revealed that the killer is just a tool for someone bigger and badder.

[Trini]

I can't find it again, but I think there was an interview (linked a while back on TWoP) where the producers addressed whether the Waynes murder would be solved. I think it's going to be a season long arc, but yeah, it's very likely that the killer was working for someone else.

 

In other speculation: the fact that Cobblepot is still alive is eventually going to get back to Falcone/Fish/Bullock. Midseason, maybe? Is Gordon completely screwed, or will he have gained some leverage by then?

Edited September 24, 2014 by Trini

[Trini]

From the Episode 1 thread:

I'm assuming (for now) that this version of Gotham City will not include the so-called metahumans, or any kind of paranormal abilities.

 

For right now the showrunners are going for a more real world tone, but if the show lasts long enough, I can see it slowly going in the other direction; and those metahuman characters might eventually fit into this world they've set up. Arrow managed it two seasons, and Person of Interest went from CBS procedural to serialized, sci-fi thriller in three.

[Kel Varnsen]

From the Episode 1 thread:

 

For right now the showrunners are going for a more real world tone, but if the show lasts long enough, I can see it slowly going in the other direction; and those metahuman characters might eventually fit into this world they've set up. Arrow managed it two seasons, and Person of Interest went from CBS procedural to serialized, sci-fi thriller in three.

I think I would be ok with people with super powers showing up, as long as it wasn't super over the top ridiculous. Like no aliens and no people with crazy good powers. But someone who can survive half their face being blown off I would be ok with or a girl who can manipulate plants. Or a guy who is super smart and can develop a freeze ray. But no immortals (Ras a Ghul) and I probably would not be ok with Clayface or Killer Croc. Although looking back at Batman The Animated Series, most of the villains were just regular people and that worked.

[Sandman]

Has anyone else had the semi-crazy notion (or maybe it's half crazy, half obvious) that Harvey Bullock and Harvey Dent will prove to be the same person? I don't really think of any other Harvey when it comes to Batman. Jim's partner already seems somewhat duplicitous.

[Kel Varnsen]

Has anyone else had the semi-crazy notion (or maybe it's half crazy, half obvious) that Harvey Bullock and Harvey Dent will prove to be the same person? I don't really think of any other Harvey when it comes to Batman. Jim's partner already seems somewhat duplicitous.

Not sure I can picture Harvey Bullock's character quitting the force, and then going back to law school and becoming the DA. 

[Sandman]

Did I mention it was a crazy theory? ;-)

[Jediknight]

Black Mask would actually be a cool choice, but I'd have him be the man behind the murder.  Let him be both involved in the existing criminal underworld and lay the foundation for what he will become.

I don't think Black Mask or his father pulled the trigger.  I think the one who ordered the Waynes killed was either Oswald or Black Mask's father.  Granted we haven't even met the Sionis family, or know if they'll be in this show, but part of me thinks Sionis' father could be the one who ordered the hit.  The black mask and shiny shoes would be something he could have ordered for the hitman to wear.  And in this canon, they could say Black Mask became Black Mask because his father started it and he took up the mantle.  The killer will probably be some low level thug who can keep his mouth shut.

 

The order came down from someone who hates Thomas and Martha but not Bruce, because otherwise the killer would have tried to kill Bruce.

 

In other speculation: the fact that Cobblepot is still alive is eventually going to get back to Falcone/Fish/Bullock. Midseason, maybe? Is Gordon completely screwed, or will he have gained some leverage by then?

I think Cobblepot will let it be known to Falcone/Fish/Bullock that he's still alive at the end of the season.  He'll lurk in the shadows, causing havoc, killing people, and positioning himself for power, before letting it be known he's still alive, by killing Fish and taking control of Gotham.  Gordon won't be completely screwed, because there will be fear that Gordon is under Cobblepot's protection, since he didn't kill him.

[MisterGlass]

They mentioned the Wayne Foundation in the episode, but Wayne Enterprises must also be in the picture.  It could be that business dealings prompted someone to remove the Waynes.

 

I'm curious to see if Lucius Fox shows up at some point.