S04.E05: Refraction

[maczero]

I don't believe that was Norma following reasons.

1. Norma would not have been able to get on the facilities' grounds without going through it's security.

2. Norma speech pattern is a bit more jittery when she's excited. The Norma in the garden was as cool as cucumber given that her son had just reunited with her son.

3. A passerby gave Norman a strange look as if he was talking to himself.

Now I admit the Norma in the garden didn't quite seem like "mother" either. She was a bit more pleasant. However I chalk it up to the mother personality evolving. I mean prior to last episode would any of us ever imagine Mother getting freaky in the VIP with a stripper.

[Andromeda]

Awesome, awesome episode. Norman transitioning to Mother -- so happy it finally happened in front of the doctor. Now he really knows what he's up against, but doesn't know the full extent of it with the murders. We know how this is going to end, but it will be interesting to see how Norman gets out of the institution and back on his own, considering he's definitely not going to be cured!

 

I hope Emma can get her staples removed soon. Mine came out 3 days after my Caesarian.

 

Norma and that creepy Chick... He so needs to die now. That window is a specialty item, and she should get it done by a specialty company, not some weirdo that just shows up. Of course, it costs money, and she doesn't have much -- but her new hubby certainly does. I couldn't figure out the art Chick wanted for the window. Looked like a rocket?

 

I've always been a little nervous about Emma's dad. I remember thinking he was scamming Dylan when he said how much he needed for Emma's surgery, but he was telling the truth.

 

I didn't believe Garden Norma was really Norma when she told Noman to lie to the therapist and pretend everything was fine so he could get out sooner. I think she's a little more savvy about the realities of psychology than to tell someone that mixed up that they should stifle their past. But maybe not -- since it took her long enough to get him help. Nevertheless, Norman called her up to reinforce what he wanted to hear, that he can soon leave and not have to reveal anything important to the doctor.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Andromeda

[truthaboutluv]

I think she's a little more savvy about the realities of psychology than to tell someone that mixed up that they should stifle their past. But maybe not -- since it took her long enough to get him help.

 

 

Exactly... And I may need to rewatch but did she tell Norman to lie because I could have sworn she just told him to do everything to convince the doctors he's better and then he could come home. That's not exactly telling him to lie. It could just as easily be interpreted as "do everything they tell you so they'll see that you're better and then you can come home."

[queenanne]

I can never tell about Emma's dad. He does have that creepy taxidermy thing, and Emma's mom did say he was abusive...but I have never gotten a scary vibe from him, and he did raise adorable Emma, so I have no idea. 

 

Yeah... I always wonder about this too.  From college professor to... taxidermist?!  I know some of it may be referred weirdness as we're clearly supposed to think that Norman's weird for the taxidermy, but still.

[Guest]

We know how this is going to end, but it will be interesting to see how Norman gets out of the institution and back on his own, considering he's definitely not going to be cured!

That's what I'm really curious about.  How does he go from revealing the depth of his illness to a psychiatrist who has him locked in, to out and murdering people?  And is the doctor going to put two and two together and have Norman himself investigated for crimes he claims Norma did?  I guess the teacher and his dad are never going to wind up on him, but were there others?  Did he blame Emma's mom on Norma, or he hasn't mentioned that to anyone?  I don't even remember who else has been killed and who's bodies have been found.  Did Norman kill Bradley?  And the hooker girl? 

[ganesh]

I'm wondering if the doctor can actually trigger Mother. I'm also wondering if he thinks he's got some great case in Norman and he's going to write a book and be famous. Because that's not going to happen!

[AmandaPanda]

I've always found Emma's dad super creepy, but it's mainly because he's Professor Quirrell and I always expect him to reveal that he's been hiding Voldemort on the back of his head all along.

[truthaboutluv]

I don't even remember who else has been killed and who's bodies have been found.  Did Norman kill Bradley?  And the hooker girl?

 

 

Norman has killed his father, Ms. Watson, Bradley and Emma's mother this season. Oh and there was Cody's dad but that was a genuine accident and he was very much aware and conscious when he did it and not in a blacked out state. Bob Parrish was the one who had the hooker murdered. 

 

Based on what we've been shown, Norman still has no recollection of killing his father and still seems to believe that his death was an accident. He remembered murdering Ms. Watson while being held captive by the drug guys who were trying to get to Dylan. However, because he murdered her while in a blacked out state, he was still confused and not sure what was and wasn't real. However, during the lie detector test Romero had Norman take since his semen was found in Ms. Watson's body, Mother came out to take the blame for the murder when he was asked if he killed her. 

 

And that began his complete path of disassociating, which we got to fully see for the first time last season when he murdered Bradley and now this season with Emma's mom. As for who Norman believes is killing these people, yes, he believes it's Norma. Because since he was Mother when he killed them, he gets flashes of memories of the murder as it happened but sees Norma's face doing it. So he believes he's remembering witnessing Norma murdering people and probably thinks his blackouts were a way to block out the memory. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[ganesh]

The cop said that someone was in jail for Watson in this episode. It doesn't mean the guy did it, but it certainly casts doubt on the certainty of Norman doing it. 

[Chaos Theory]

The cop said that someone was in jail for Watson in this episode. It doesn't mean the guy did it, but it certainly casts doubt on the certainty of Norman doing it.

I rewatced season one and two and the show all but confirmed the Norman killed Watson. If you believe his "visions" and at done point you have to. He had sex with Ms Watson and killed her. During the scene where he was locked in the underground box he "remembered" Mother killing Watson. Yes you can make the point that his visions shouldn't be taken as fact but they are also a good way for the show to show the audience what actually happened instead of what Norman thinks happened.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[ganesh]

Yes, that's a valid interpretation of that scene. I've already argued my side enough that I know most others are sick of hearing it. I think it's kind of condescending to constantly be told that my interpretation is less valid every time I bring it up. I pay careful attention when I watch the show just like everyone else. 

 

The only reason I brought it up was because there's a scene where a cop says "someone else is is in jail for Watson" in this episode. That can't be ignored. It doesn't exonerate Norman by a long shot. I think it's all up in the air. 

[radishcake]

Hey guys, watch the tone. Agree to disagree and comment on your opinions not the opinions of others. If you have an issue I'm your friendly neighborhood mod and my PM box is always open. :)

[truthaboutluv]

The only reason I brought it up was because there's a scene where a cop says "someone else is is in jail for Watson" in this episode. That can't be ignored. It doesn't exonerate Norman by a long shot. I think it's all up in the air.

 

Except, this wasn't new information, at least not to me. I might have to rewatch because this was two seasons ago, but I'm positive we were told someone was arrested for Ms. Watson's murder early in Season 2. Because there was the whole fact of her having two semen types in her body. They at first didn't know who the second was but they did match one of them to some violent ex of hers or maybe he was just some known criminal in the town. In any case, Romero questioned that guy and they eventually arrested him. That happened early in the season. 

 

However later, the female cop that appeared only that season matched Norman's DNA to the second semen sample found in Ms. Watson's body when Norman was arrested after he accidentally killed Cody's father. She told Romero and that's why Romero set up the lie detector test but he did all this sort of off the books. He had a friend who was an ex-police chief or something, administer the polygraph to Norman. So Norman was never officially questioned about what happened with Ms. Watson. And also, we saw that he passed the polygraph because when asked if he killed Ms. Watson, Mother came out and told him the secret that she did it and so when he said no, it revealed that he was telling the truth.

 

I am certainly not trying to open up the debate again of whether or not Norman murdered Ms. Watson because I guess it's like the scene with Norma in this episode - you either believe it happened or not. That said, someone being arrested for Ms. Watson's murder wasn't a new revelation and just for me personally, these things were all the reasons I do believe Norman killed her. Having someone else's semen in her and someone else arrested so early in the season shifted focus away from the mystery until the last few episodes where one, the viewer learned that Norman at some point had sex with Ms. Watson because his semen was in her, then he had the flashback of murdering her and then Mother later comes out and tells him she did it and he passes a lie detector taste that exonerates him. And we have the creepy Norman Bates smile. Again, just to be very clear not telling anyone what they should believe, just explaining why the whole thing always worked for me.

Edited April 14, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[RCharter]

 

I nominate the banker lady ex-girlfriend for extermination before the end of the season.

 

I wish the giant sinkhole was still open for business, because banker and Chick are perfect candidates.

 

Yes, that's a valid interpretation of that scene. I've already argued my side enough that I know most others are sick of hearing it. I think it's kind of condescending to constantly be told that my interpretation is less valid every time I bring it up. I pay careful attention when I watch the show just like everyone else. 

 

The only reason I brought it up was because there's a scene where a cop says "someone else is is in jail for Watson" in this episode. That can't be ignored. It doesn't exonerate Norman by a long shot. I think it's all up in the air. 

I think most everything is up in the air with this show and I have to believe that they are constantly trying to keep the viewer a little off kilter.  

 

I thought Jasper was imaginary and Norma was real.  But I honestly think that the writers gave the viewer enough clues to think that Jasper was fake...I mean, come on...turkey pot pie???  And in this episode when he visited drugged up Jasper, his hair seemed almost combed like Normans.....and it was odd that he saw drugged up Jasper, right after talking to the doctor about being open to trying medications.  But Jasper is real.  Norma on the other hand....she was in her car driving (and how damn awesome is Norma to have driving gloves!), she expressed concern about "getting Norman better" and she shows up on the grounds as he is doing better.  It would be easy to think that Norman is now allowed to have visitors because he is complying and improving, and that his "secret phone call" prompted her visit.  

 

I guess a lot of people picked up on Norma being fake in that scene, but I think the writers so write the show so its open to multiple interpretations.

 

And your interpretation is valid too, because I think this show likes to mess with the viewers head in the craziest of ways.  Who is that guy doing time for Ms. Watsons murder?  Did he just randomly confess?  Is there a connection?  Who knows how that all went down.

[BatmanBeatles]

I forget. What did Caleb do to Chick?

[truthaboutluv]

I forget. What did Caleb do to Chick?

 

Beat him up to a near inch of his life because he was positive Chick deliberately set him and Dylan up to go into what was an ambush that nearly got them killed. Chick mentioned this to Dylan last episode when he showed up to see him and ask if he knew where Caleb was. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[BatmanBeatles]

OK thanks. See how much any of the pot story line holds my attention?

[Lady Calypso]

Yes, that's a valid interpretation of that scene. I've already argued my side enough that I know most others are sick of hearing it. I think it's kind of condescending to constantly be told that my interpretation is less valid every time I bring it up. I pay careful attention when I watch the show just like everyone else. 

 

The only reason I brought it up was because there's a scene where a cop says "someone else is is in jail for Watson" in this episode. That can't be ignored. It doesn't exonerate Norman by a long shot. I think it's all up in the air. 

 

Since I binge watched the series this past week, I can confirm that Romero had a storyline early season 2 (probably around episode 3 or 4) where they found the guy who had sex with Miss Watson and he put him in jail because they had no other leads. That was mostly Romero cutting corners and really hoping that this was the guy. They just wanted to close the case because (I believe) there were people like Nick Ford questioning Romero about the reasons for not finding her killer. It pressured him into thinking that he got the right guy. But, as we know, Norman was the second person to have sex (I STILL hate that Deputy who decided to be all gung ho against Norman and run his DNA through the system for absolutely no reason) and we did learn by the season's end that he did kill her, through Mother. 

 

I do think that the Watson case may come up again, now that Romero is getting closer to Norma. In fact, I think the doctor will figure out that Norman, as Mother, may have killed more than a few people, Watson included. I think that will definitely ruffle some feathers and ruin some things. But that's what I figured when they mentioned Miss Watson's murder, just to foreshadow the truth about Norman/Mother killing her. We know he's capable of killing, and if we assume that he did kill his father, it's not unreasonable to assume that he killed Miss Watson as well. He's also now killed Bradley, Cody's dad, and possibly Emma's mother. That's a lot of bodies, and we still have a season and a half to go, at least. I guess that's just been my assumption to all of this, especially with the also constant mentions of Norman's dad and his death. I just assume that it's to bring drama with Norman, to consistently remind the audience that Norman's done terrible things and he might not be getting away with it for long. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[DangerousMinds]

Possibly Emma's mother? Do you think that may not have happened?

[Fable]

I don't think it's important any longer whether we believe Norman killed Ms. Watson or  not.  I think what we are meant to see is that Norman is breaking from reality, and even he is not sure what is really going on.  I tend to believe he did kill her, but I don't really think it matters.  Same with Norman's outdoor scene when Norma/Mother showed up.  While I believe it was probably Norma, some things beg the question as to whether Norman can tell the difference or not.  Being right or wrong about either of these things will not ruin my enjoyment of the show.  I'm loving the bigger picture.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fable

[Mabinogia]

I love that we can't say 100% whether it was Mother or not or if he really did kill Miss Watson. I like that feeling of uncertainty as it mirrors Norman's own feelings. Personally I think he did kill Miss Watson and was visited by Mother and not Norma but if the show decided to reveal that I was wrong I wouldn't be upset or screaming retcon. Not having a definitive answer works for this particular show very well.

[ari333]

There's no way a visitor can just walk up to a patient in the "garden." imo It was Mother.  I cant un-italics my post :-)

[ganesh]

I thought it was Norma herself until the Doctor said otherwise. In this case, I think the only conclusion is that it was Mother. It stretches credulity way too much that Norma snuck in there somehow. 

 

I love that we can't say 100% whether it was Mother or not or if he really did kill Miss Watson. I like that feeling of uncertainty as it mirrors Norman's own feelings.

 

I think that is the point as well. I take issue with the premise that there's only one way to interpret the flashback. I don't think he did, but I'm not going to call BS if it's revealed that he (Mother) did. And I don't want TPTB to tell me either way. Put it on the screen and let us discuss our interpretations. One could argue whether he did or not isn't the point. 

[ari333]

The interpretations make it fun! :-) I still say it was Mother only bc Norma couldn't just walk in and have access to any patient. imo What's the point of all the rules and monitoring if anyone can waltz in and interact with someone? ALso Norman is a flight risk, given his recent strip club escapade.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ari333

[truthaboutluv]

YMMV but I didn't see Norma sneaking into the facility. We've seen Norma drive up to that place many times without having to go through any security - i.e. all the times she visited the place when considering sending Norman there. From those times, in my opinion, it seemed like security was inside the building when you walked through the lobby. So if Norma had just driven up and parked and was heading into the building, and Norman sees her and they start talking, then she didn't sneak in.

 

It just meant she never remembered to sign. Me personally I definitely think it was her but because Norman is so crazy at this point, one can second guess anything he says or thinks happened as long as no one else was there. And I believe the point of having the doctor believe it wasn't real and mentioning that was so that Norman could get agitated enough for Mother to come out. 

 

I love that we can't say 100% whether it was Mother or not or if he really did kill Miss Watson.

 

Actually I never got the impression that those who believe Norman killed Ms. Watson questioned that he did so as Mother. The whole point it would seem of Mother coming out during the lie detector test to admit it was her, I feel anyway, was sort of to show that's what happened. We saw Mother appear in the season finale while Norman was watching Ms. Watson get undressed and saying he knew what he had to do. I think if  you believe he did it, it's pretty accepted that it was as Mother or at the least while he was blacked out. Because other than Cody's dad which was an accident, we have never seen Norman kill anyone in cold blood as himself or fully conscious and aware of what he's doing. The debate seems to be whether or not someone besides Norman killed Ms. Watson. 

 

And I don't want TPTB to tell me either way. Put it on the screen and let us discuss our interpretations. One could argue whether he did or not isn't the point.

 

YMMV but I would argue that in a way it does matter because the truth of that incident can alter a lot of what has happened and how we view it, imo. If Norman didn't kill Ms. Watson and was just confused while kidnapped, then his whole descent from almost wanting to kill himself and Mother becoming more pronounced because he couldn't handle the reality of what he may have done, makes him even more tragic. Because then the whole thing was a misunderstanding by a boy who was already mentally troubled and whose hold on reality was fragile. You have to wonder then would Norman have descended further into his madness were it not for that or at least kill so many other people?

 

However, if he did kill her then what we saw was the continuation of what started with his father and his descent into a murderous path that was likely always going to happen. So then that matters in terms of how we view the character. One of the main thematic debates I feel about this show, is whether or not Norman is just a monster or a horrible person or a tragic figure? IMO Ms. Watson's murder does play into that. But listen I respect that some choose to interpret the storyline in their own way. Hell I think Norma really did show up to see Norman so there you go...

Edited April 15, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[ari333]

Imo the patients' garden /walking/ outside area would not be open to visitors walking up from outside, If they came inside, then had access with permission that seems different to me. SOme of these folks are dangerous. I don't think having anyone walk up to them would be normal. If so then the security is off the charts bad. .

And what's to stop Norman from simply walking out the same way Norma walked in unchecked/unsigned?

[KaveDweller]

Imo the patients' garden /walking/ outside area would not be open to visitors walking up from outside, If they came inside, then had access with permission that seems different to me. SOme of these folks are dangerous. I don't think having anyone walk up to them would be normal. If so then the security is off the charts bad. .

And what's to stop Norman from simply walking out the same way Norma walked in unchecked/unsigned?

 

In the episode where he and Julian escaped, Norman tried to go outside and the guard told him patients were only allowed out from a certain door. That suggests the area where he would have been outside is a fenced in area that doesn't have a door people can go in or out of.

[ari333]

In the episode where he and Julian escaped, Norman tried to go outside and the guard told him patients were only allowed out from a certain door. That suggests the area where he would have been outside is a fenced in area that doesn't have a door people can go in or out of.

 

YES! I agree.

That's why Norma wouldn't be able to just walk in to a patient area unchecked/unsigned. (The lobby , yes; the other patient areas, no (imo) 

[Nutjob]

Exactly. I would think any visitors would have to go in through the lobby, and any common areas for patients would be fenced off and secured from both the inside and the outside since not all the patients are there of their own free will.