Season 2

[Guest]

(Again, I'd love a better name for this thread, so please suggest away!)

 

A place to discuss the wonderful (and not so wonderful happenings of Season 2.  Please limit this thread to Season 2 events. Discussion on how Season 2 events tied into later seasons should go in the All Episode thread.  This way if someone new watches the show, they aren't spoiled for the whole series if they join this thread.

 

• Sadie, Sadie
• Hammers & Veils
• Red Light on the Wedding Night
• The Road Trip to Harvard
• Nick & Nora / Sid & Nancy
• Presenting Lorelai Gilmore
• Like Mother, Like Daughter
• The Ins and Outs of Inns
• Run Away, Little Boy
• The Bracebridge Dinner
• Secrets and Loans
• Richard in Stars Hollow
• A-Tisket, A-Tasket
• It Should've Been Lorelai
• Lost and Found
• There's the Rub
• Dead Uncles and Vegetables
• Back in the Saddle Again
• Teach Me Tonight
• Help Wanted
• Lorelai's Graduation Day
• I Can't Get Started

[elang4]

The standout episode for me in this season has to be Dead Uncles and Vegetables. Everyone was saying how Luke would drop everything to help Lorelai and Rory that it was nice to see them repay the favour. It showed that their close friendship was genuine. And then the whole town showing up at the end just to support Luke was so sweet. :)

[lulu1960]

Dead Uncles is my favorite Season 2 episode and probably my overall fave of the series. I agree it was so nice seeing Lorelai and Rory being there for Luke. Lorelai looked good behind Luke's counter. :)

Edited March 24, 2016 by lulu1960

[Guest]

I hated Dead Uncles and Vegetables the first 2 times I watched it (and of course now I don't remember why) but now I really like it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm here:

 

It Should've Been Lorelai

Lost and Found

 

Sherry is so rude.  The first time I watched this show I wasn't sure what to think.  But now I realize, Sherry is basically a person without manners (I sound like Emily.)  Sherry comes off as incredibly strong in a situation that ANYONE with common sense would know is tense and sensitive -- basically an almost-stepmother position.  She falls all over herself praising Rory to the point where it comes off as not genuine, then she asks to speak to Lorelai privately.  She says she NEEDS to get to know Rory, but she doesn't NEED to get to know Lorelai.  RUDE.  Who says that, to an owner of the house they're standing in?   Rory is L's daughter as much as she is Chris's, and L obviously has custody as well. 

 

Madchen Amick is incredibly beautiful and I love her dress in this episode where we meet her.  I assume that this has been rehashed in past GG threads/forums but this is only my second rewatch.  Sherry is RUDE. 

 

There's a scene where Lorelai is in a bad mood I think because of a conflict with Rory over Jess.  She goes into Luke's and right away Luke, just by looking at her, is as sweet as pie (in his own way) offering to do all sorts of things to make her happy.

 

Lorelai has a very weird complex about Jess.  What is it about?  She's worried he'll just straight up impregnate Rory?  This whole arc just makes me think of Cher Horowitz in Clueless, when she says, "Uh, you are a SNOB and a HALF."  Calling Jess "a little jerk" to his face really rubbed me the wrong way.  Oh, and when Jess says "If the bracelet is Rory's most prized possession, then why didn't she know it was missing for two weeks?"  Is that him confessing to Lorelai that he DID take it, otherwise how the hell would he know it's missing for 2 weeks?  This is after he denies taking it, to Lorelai many times.

 

Thanks for letting me vent that.  Lorelai is looking hot with straightened hair.  Was Lauren Graham similar in age to how old Lorelai was supposed to be?

Edited March 26, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[lulu1960]

I believe Lauren is a couple years older than Lorelai.

[Aloeonatable]

 

Lorelai has a very weird complex about Jess.  What is it about?  She's worried he'll just straight up impregnate Rory?  This whole arc just makes me think of Cher Horowitz in Clueless, when she says, "Uh, you are a SNOB and a HALF."  Calling Jess "a little jerk" to his face really rubbed me the wrong way.  Oh, and when Jess says "If the bracelet is Rory's most prized possession, then why didn't she know it was missing for two weeks?"  Is that him confessing to Lorelai that he DID take it, otherwise how the hell would he know it's missing for 2 weeks?  This is after he denies taking it, to Lorelai many times.

 

I don't think that Jess thought he "took" Rory's bracelet, but that he found it and kept it, not knowing that it was given to her by Dean. Once he realized how important it was to her, he returned it. IMO to him, the bracelet was a reminder of their afternoon together. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sure, ok.  I understand all of that.  My questions do remain, though.  Once Lorelai accused Jess of "taking it" again and again Jess's answer was that he had no clue what she was talking about.  I love Jess, but that was a lie.  Then he came out and said the bracelet had been lost for two weeks, a fact he would only have known if he was there when Rory lost it (Rory had no idea that she did.)

[junienmomo]

Sure, ok.  I understand all of that.  My questions do remain, though.  Once Lorelai accused Jess of "taking it" again and again Jess's answer was that he had no clue what she was talking about.  I love Jess, but that was a lie.  Then he came out and said the bracelet had been lost for two weeks, a fact he would only have known if he was there when Rory lost it (Rory had no idea that she did.)

 

Oh, yeah, he was totally lying. Every step of the way. He knew what he had done, and he didn't much care. His perspective was that Rory hadn't even noticed the bracelet was gone. He was neither Lorelai's nor Dean's friend and had only one wish, which was Rory. The other two stood in his way. 

He also wasn't evil incarnate, regardless of Taylor's opinion. Rory could just as easily have realized on the bridge that the bracelet was missing, then he could have teased her and it would have been over in ten seconds. But she didn't notice. For weeks. Jess must have loved that. 

That's the kind of stuff teenagers do. I suspect that he was kind of stuck after Rory didn't miss the bracelet, because there was no easy way to get it back to her without having been accused of taking it. Which he did.

 

Funny thing - I don't recall Lorelai telling Rory that Jess had taken it. Did she? That could have achieved Lorelai's wish of Rory rejecting Jess. 

[Aloeonatable]

When Jess denied "taking" the bracelet, he wasn't lying. Lorelei accused him of stealing it; to him he found it, knowing it was Rory's and wanting to keep it as a reminder of their day together. We don't know for sure if he knew it was from Dean and he didn't know that she would not miss it, so that argument does not hold water. 

 

Rory could just as easily have realized on the bridge that the bracelet was missing, then he could have teased her and it would have been over in ten seconds. But she didn't notice. For weeks. Jess must have loved that.

You are assuming that he knew it was from Dean and that she wouldn't have missed it. 

 

I think he denied taking it because he was embarrassed that he was caught returning it. Just like I think that Lorelai wouldn't tell Rory because then she might push Rory into re-examining her feelings for Jess and her growing lack of feelings for Dean. After all, she and Rory had a big fight over Jess and Dean and the picnic basket lunch. 

[photo fox]

I don't remember the episode well enough to take a side in the current discussion. So I'll stipulate to the fact that Jess was completely innocent - he found it/didn't steal it, didn't know it was from Dean, and didn't know Rory would miss it.

Even so, I think that hoarding a personal/intimate item like jewelry - without the owner's knowledge - as some kind of remembrance is more than a little creepy.

I'm sure it's supposed to come off as romantic, and maybe it did. But if I spent the day with a guy and found him coveting my bracelet later to remember our "special time" instead of saying, "hey, you dropped something," I would run far and fast in the opposite direction. JMHO

[katha]

Lorelai has a very weird complex about Jess.  What is it about?  She's worried he'll just straight up impregnate Rory?  This whole arc just makes me think of Cher Horowitz in Clueless, when she says, "Uh, you are a SNOB and a HALF."  Calling Jess "a little jerk" to his face really rubbed me the wrong way.

Jess is a tool, but I think the townies' reaction to him is deliberately written as a bit creepy and OTT. As is their over-protectiveness of Rory. Basically it shows the not so nice side of SH. How it can be cloying and stifling. Lorelai's weirdness goes in the same direction, and it always rang true for me and I found it interesting they went with that. I think it's part of her "Rory is the specialest snowflake that ever specialed" routine and her desire to keep Rory in a cocoon forever, which is threatened by that young punk coming into town. Another aspect is that she probably remembers how she was as a teenager, angry and unhappy and self-destructive and recognizes the same signs in Jess, therefore wants Rory to stay away from that minefield. She's also visibly thrown that he doesn't ever warm up to her. Everyone loves Lorelai Gilmore! It's like the first rule of the universe! Except for Jess, he just doesn't give a damn about her or her opinion. Their few tense scenes together are actually really interesting to watch, because they deviate from the usual babbly dynamic Lorelai is able to establish with people. Even her parents react to some degree to her endless word flow and even indulge it. Jess for the most part completely blocks her.

Edited March 27, 2016 by katha

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yes, that's right, I noticed that as well.  Lorelai is turned off by Jess because Jess didn't immediately fall all over himself loving her sarcastic jabs at everything around her.  When she met him she tried her normal sarcastic, "I'm hilarious" talk and he was quiet.  Then when she had Jess over for dinner she tried to be the "Cool Mom" who can read hip teenagers and again he was quiet.  Lorelai might be clever but not everyone reacts positively to that small talk jokey persona where you have to lob it back to them, plus Jess had other things on his mind.

 

Let me make a few things clear

- Rory dropped her bracelet unknowingly, and then ran away.  Jess picked it up.  He knew it was hers.  

- Jess kept it.  

- 2 weeks later Dean asks Rory where it is and she freaks out.

- Jess knows about this, but waits a day or so, and then plants it in Rory's room so she would find it.

- Lorelai sees Jess leaving Rory's room.  Then she interrogates Jess saying, you stole it, then you kept it when you knew Rory was worried about it.  (First part false; second part true, for a day or so at least)

- Jess said I have no idea what you're talking about.  (Not true.)

 

The interesting part is that he denied all of Lorelai's accusations PLUS SAID I have no idea what you're talking about, yet he admitted the entire thing when he said "She didn't know it was gone for 2 weeks" which is an admission of what happened.  I just wondered if that was intentional or not.  It's also interesting that Lorelai does not catch this "confession", instead she looks embarrassed because Jess was right.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[cuddlingcrowley]

I've grown to love Lorelai a lot through every rewatch but the arrival of Jess shows a very unnapealing side to her personality that, back when I first watched this season, turned me off from her for her a very long time.

 

She seems to be against Luke taking him in from the get go in a way that read to me less over her being concerned over Luke not knowing what kind of responsability he was taking on and more like she understood instinctivelly Jess might bump Rory and her from the number one spot off Luke's attentions.  

 

Her speech to Jess at Sid & Nancy makes me cringe every single time I hear it. It drips with condescention and it's all around tone deaf to the point of being embarrassing. Just compare how Rory chooses to relate to Jess in this episode and how Lorelai does it. I know there's the age difference to take in account but I think there's something to be said for Rory actually dealing with Jess like he's a person, trying to include him by making the dinner seem appealing and then giving him his space.  Lorelai essentially just makes everything all about Luke and herself. And then, of course, ends up hating him forever and ever after he reacts predictably badly. 

 

I don't know. I find Lorelai a very odd cookie when it comes to teenager boys, especially the ones in Rory's life. From the get go she compared Dean to Christopher and after warming up to him, she can never NOT describe him to anyone as anything less than "beautiful", "hunky", etc. Which I personally find all kinds of inappropriate. Seriously, you can easily hit double digits as far as the amount of times she does it. Lorelai also seems worryingly amused at Dean's stalkerish tendencies so I personally can never do a rewatch without thinking she lives vicariously through Rory's love life to an extent. I mean, she continued seeing Dean with rose-colored glasses way, way after Rory stopped.

 

With Jess, I feel she saw too much of herself in him to ever find him appealing for herself (and thus for Rory) hence why she never bothered to give him a real shot. Not to say Jess made that easy, by any means, but I always find very off-putting her consistent hostility towards a 17 year old who was abandoned by his father and got shipped off by his mother to another town without any say in the matter. I mean what is that about him and his harmless pranks she finds so offensive anyway?

Edited March 27, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[FictionLover]

Lorelai opened her home to welcome Jess even though she thought Luke may have his hands full with his nephew.  When she spoke to Jess after she caught him with a beer, she tried to tell him how good it could be for him living with Luke and how great of a person Luke is. Jess accused her of sleeping with him.  I think I wouldn't be too fond of the punk either.  Jess had a chip on his shoulder and was constantly looking for someone to knock it off. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

Lorelai opened her home to welcome Jess even though she thought Luke may have his hands full with his nephew.

 

With respect, I think it could be argued that was more about supporting Luke than Jess himself. It was a very nice thing to do, anyway, but it's clear her sole focus is Luke so I can see that not doing much for the kid who's feeling like a object to be passed around.

 

 

I think I wouldn't be too fond of the punk either.

 

Sure. I just expect better from Lorelai. IMO, if her speech had had a little less of her trying to put him in his place by acting unimpressed by his façade and going on about how lucky he is to have Luke, and had delivered some actual empathy for Jess as a person, I think it would have gone a long way not to get a rise out of him.

 

As it was, whenever I rewatch that scene I always think: "Dude, did you expect anything else? Really?".

 

 

On another note, there's a bit in "Sadie, Sadie" that had me stopping the episode and googling and still I haven't found a satisfying answer.

 

RICHARD: A girl that age shouldn't have a boyfriend.

EMILY: You truly think a sixteen year old girl isn't gonna date?

RICHARD: Well, of course she's going to date, and she should date. The proper socialization is important to a child. But she should not date one boy and she should not date him. [phone rings] Don't answer that.

 

 

I'm not American, so I'm thinking this is definitely a culture thing, but the exchange above might be one of the oddest conversations I've ever seen on this show -- a grandfather saying his granddaughter should date a lot of boys instead of being in an exclusive relationship. And I think the problem is that I have a different concept of what dating entails than someone from Richard's generation/culture would. So my question is: can someone clear up to me what Richard is actually saying?

 

From googling, I found a lot of sites (mostly religious), talking about "casual dating" different boys and how one should avoid "exclusive" relationships because they lead to sex. So from then I assume "casual dating", in that context, would not include kissing or anything else that would lead to sex? 

 

Is that what Richard believes is the "proper" thing for someone of Rory's age? To go on the movies and dinner with many boys where they're basically friends? Is that an actual thing not especially religious conservative people do/did?

Edited March 28, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[moonb]

My parents are about Richard and Emily's age (1950s teens, 1960s adults), and yes, to them "casual dating" for teenage girls meant no sexual activity beyond maybe good night kisses. "Dating" to them was a ritual that meant dressing right, going to some kind of event, making small talk and holding conversation....generally behaving like your parents' idea of a "lady/gentleman." It also meant dating the right kind of boy/girl - classism at its finest.  (I think this was what Richard was getting at with "proper socialization.") Serious relationships =passion=sex. Which isn't to say that my parents or any of their peers actually behaved that way, just that those were the rules they were supposed to follow, especially in high school.  I'm sure both my parents had classmates who had to get married right out of high school because of a surprise pregnancy that occurred from a steady relationship....which had to have been on Richard's mind anyway, given the Gilmore family history and all. 

 

To this day, my mother has trouble wrapping her head around the idea that casual dating means casual sex, possibly with multiple partners, in the eyes of lots of people. And I don't think she would have had male friends as a teenager, only boyfriend possibilities. In the age and place where she grew up, boys and girls being just friends would have been unheard of in a way it isn't today. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by moonb

[chessiegal]

My parents are about Richard and Emily's age (1950s teens, 1960s adults), and yes, to them "casual dating" for teenage girls meant no sexual activity beyond maybe good night kisses. "Dating" to them was a ritual that meant dressing right, going to some kind of event, making small talk and holding conversation....generally behaving like your parents' idea of a "lady/gentleman." It also meant dating the "right" kind of boy/girl - classism at its finest.  (I think this was what Richard was getting at with "proper socialization.") Serious relationships =passion=sex. Which isn't to say that my parents or any of their peers actually behaved that way, just that those were the rules they were supposed to follow, especially in high school.  I'm sure both my parents had classmates who had to get married right out of high school because of a surprise pregnancy that occurred from a steady relationship....which had to have been on Richard's mind anyway, given the Gilmore family history and all. 

 

To this day, my mother has trouble wrapping her head around the idea that casual dating means casual sex, possibly with multiple partners, in the eyes of lots of people. And I don't think she would have had male friends as a teenager, only boyfriend possibilities. In the age and place where she grew up, boys and girls being "just friends" would have been unheard of in a way it isn't today. 

I was born in 1950. I had male friends all my life that were  just that, friends. There were 3 girls in my senior class that got pregnant and stayed in school until  graduation, and another who dropped out and had her baby elsewhere. Yes, kids had sex, and yes my parent's expectations was that you didn't have sex until marriage. But by 1968 the world was a changing.

[moonb]

Right, but by 1968 when Lorelai was born, Richard and Emily were what, 26-27? and had been married for a few years at least.  And it's hard to imagine the social changes of 1968 suddenly transforming Hartford, Connecticut's society, which the young married Gilmores would have been a part of. 

 

At any rate, the "rules" that applied to anyone my parents' age (born about 1940), well, when you're talking about teenagers, sometimes they're wishful thinking :) We know perfectly well that plenty of 1950s teenagers didn't live their real lives that way, just that their anxious parents wished they had. And anyway, that's what Richard's conversation about Rory is about - fantasyland wishful thinking about his angelic granddaughter, and how she shouldn't be seriously involved with a boy at the dangerous age of 16.  He had enough trouble with the idea of her being sexually active at 21, after all. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by moonb

[cuddlingcrowley]

Yes, kids had sex, and yes my parent's expectations was that you didn't have sex until marriage. But by 1968 the world was a changing.

 

 

Parents expecting their daughter not to have sex until marriage wasn't unheard of to me -- my mother was born in the sixties and that's how she was raised. What confuses me is the implication that casual dating was somehow more acceptable at some point than an exclusive relationship and that was because you were expected to behave with the "people" you're dating pretty much how you'd behave with a friend. That blows my mind, for some reason. 

 

And anyway, that's what Richard's conversation about Rory is about - wishful thinking about his angelic granddaughter, and how she shouldn't be seriously involved with a boy at the dangerous age of 16.

 

 

That scene would have baffled me less if Richard simply had stoppped at: she's too young to have a boyfriend and that had been the end of it. Because it's not unlike of what I've heard from lots of parents growing up and I was born in 1990. 

 

I wish Lorelai and Rory had been in the room when he said he much preferred Rory would date lots of boys. Now their reaction would have been priceless.

 

Now, of course, there's always the possibility Richard is talking out of his ass and he actually means: Rory is too young to be dating/have a boyfriend period. So there's no way he'd be giving her ideas.

Edited March 28, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[txhorns79]

That scene would have baffled me less if Richard simply had stopped at: she's too young to have a boyfriend and that had been the end of it. Because it's not unlike of what I've heard from lots of parents growing up and I was born in 1990.

 

I just figured a lot of Richard's attitude towards Rory and dating had to do with his experiences with Lorelai.  He was worried (not unreasonably given his experience with Lorelai) that if Rory was dating one person seriously, it would lead to sex and that would lead to another pregnancy. 

 

 

Right, but by 1968 when Lorelai was born, Richard and Emily were what, 26-27? and had been married for a few years at least.  And it's hard to imagine the social changes of 1968 suddenly transforming Hartford, Connecticut's society, which the young married Gilmores would have been a part of.

 

I grew up in the 80s and 90s, and we were still very much taught that sex is something for when you reach adulthood, not your high school years.  

[dirtypop90]

I grew up in the 90s and could not have a serious boyfriend. I could go out on group dates with boys I liked but I couldn't go out one-on-one with a  boy. And boys were not allowed to come over to my house, for any reason, and if I introduced a boy as my boyfriend to my grandfather, he wouldn't got his shot gun. So I understood what richard was saying. I grew up in a small southern town. my family was pretty traditional, I guess. My mother couldn't have boyfriends and the rules stayed the same for me. I was nerdy and shy so the rules didn't bother me. And tbh I see no reason not to raise my future children the same way.  

[cuddlingcrowley]

Group dates do seem more realistic for maintenance of ones' chastity than some of the stuff I've been reading on the internet. All around more fun as well. 

 

This:

 

yes, to them "casual dating" for teenage girls meant no sexual activity beyond maybe good night kisses. "Dating" to them was a ritual that meant dressing right, going to some kind of event, making small talk and holding conversation....generally behaving like your parents' idea of a "lady/gentleman."

 

 

sounds extremelly boring if done in a long term basis.

Edited March 28, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[moonb]

sounds extremelly boring if done in a long term basis.

 

 

That's probably why Emily and Richard were married by age 22-23...because dating wasn't much fun :)

 

To get back to the Lorelai/Jess conversation, I hold the unpopular opinion of finding any Lorelai/Rory argument interesting and watchable, so while I don't particularly care about Jess as a character, I like what he exposes about Lorelai and Rory's mother/daughter relationship, and I like the first serious fights they have and Lorelai's uneasy realization, revisited throughout the series, that her "mom card" just plain won't work if Rory simply doesn't listen to her. Dean was a safe boyfriend, but Jess is more of a threat to her "best friend" relationship with Rory. If Lorelai really dislikes Jess, wouldn't that mean that she's forced into a more Emily-like mom role? It's an interesting dynamic, anyway. 

[takalotti]

Richard could have a convincing vision of the future that Rory doesn't have sex until marriage, and he'd still disapprove of her having a steady boyfriend. Because that would mean she'd be fixated on him, and thus more likely to marry him, and I think he just didn't like the idea of a person choosing their future spouse at the age of 16.

But yeah, he's having Lorelai flashbacks that it'll all lead to sex and sex BAD!

[JayInChicago]

I feel like Richard was just being contrary and self serving at that moment actually. He didn't want her to have *that* particular steady boyfriend, so she should "play the field" in sexless but 'social' casual dating. But if she had met Logan in high school and had dated him at the same time she was dating a lesser boy or two, he probably would have wanted her to get serious about Logan.  As much as we love Grandpa Gilmore, he often was a complete blowhard.

Though with complete honesty I didn't really see why Rory couldn't have dated both Dean *and* Jess, more or less at the same time, but I may have just contradicted myself. lol

[katha]

Sure. I just expect better from Lorelai. IMO, if her speech had had a little less of her trying to put him in his place by acting unimpressed by his façade and going on about how lucky he is to have Luke, and had delivered some actual empathy for Jess as a person, I think it would have gone a long way not to get a rise out of him.

 

As it was, whenever I rewatch that scene I always think: "Dude, did you expect anything else? Really?"

Yeah, I found Lorelai's speech condescending and drippy. And as Jess rightly said, she didn't know anything about him and his situation so doling out overbearing life advice like that to basically a total stranger was never going to be a hit. I think Jess would have actually reacted better if she had just busted his ass for the beer drinking and told him cut it out. But piling on the "cool mom, I can totally relate" shtick was cringeworthy. So Jess flung out the most hurtful thing he could think of, the point where she'd shown herself to be vulnerable (he was good about that, the little jerk, getting under people's skins about their weaknesses), so she would stop and back off. And after that Lorelai's chill persona falls off and she becomes openly hostile. Jess probably felt vindicated that he had exposed her or something. And I do think this is a point where Jess is generally unfair, mostly towards adults, in that he believes the worst about them and then provokes them accordingly. It's understandable given his background, but still.

 

The show was actually fairly realistic about Jess, I thought. He was a messed up kid, one speech from Lorelai wouldn't make a difference. Neither would everything immediately be okay because Luke and Rory loved him and were supportive. Though you see him gradually changing around them. He's taken with Rory and tries with her, though his issues still get in the way. And I love that the recent GG rewatch recaps pointed out the Jess/Luke dynamic as a highlight. It's cool to see how Jess stays sarcastic and snarky about Luke, but gradually it loses almost all sting and malice. By the point Nicole is in the picture, it's basically friendly and hilarious teasing. So it made sense that he needed years and de-tours to straigthen himself out, Rory and Luke couldn't do it for him. But they were both good, positive forces in his life, something he didn't seem used to. And in the end he could show his appreciation and gratitude towards them. It also rang true that he wouldn't stay in SH, his hate for the town seemed heartfelt and all-consuming.

[Ms Blue Jay]

There are some people who have a particular way of being generous and so unselfish in their heads and if you don't appreciate it wholly then the hostility comes out.  They don't have the awareness to understand that these activities might not be received in those same way you intended.  Hence, Lorelai trying to act cool and relatable to Jess, and "opening her home" to him when he first arrived in town, and then acting hostile when Jess rejects it.  The hostility was a great way of explaining it in the last post.

 

I agree that the dynamic between Lorelai/Rory/Jess is very interesting.  Also, I'm sure you guys have rehashed this but it's very funny that Dean is introduced as a guy who reads a lot and that Rory 'flirts' and 'woos' with this person by forcing him to read things and agreeing to read things he wants her to (Hunter S. Thompson?).  Then the writers have Jess show up on the scene and they put Dean on the backburner as Jealous Guy and Jess is in the exact same place Dean was before, agreeing to read things that Rory recommends (Ayn Rand) and asking her to read things he recommends.  The writers only have one idea of courting.  I'm going to wait and see what book Logan forces her to read.  Rory is all so annoyingly cloying through all of this but it might be the acting that's at fault because Milo is pretty good at pulling it off.

[Guest]

Also, I'm sure you guys have rehashed this but it's very funny that Dean is introduced as a guy who reads a lot and that Rory 'flirts' and 'woos' with this person by forcing him to read things and agreeing to read things he wants her to (Hunter S. Thompson?).  Then the writers have Jess show up on the scene and they put Dean on the backburner as Jealous Guy and Jess is in the exact same place Dean was before, agreeing to read things that Rory recommends (Ayn Rand) and asking her to read things he recommends.

Yes, yes, yes. It's very annoying to me.  Suddenly, Dean isn't a guy who lived in Chicago who read a lot but a backwoods hick whose only interests are Rory and monster trucks.

[txhorns79]

Lorelai's uneasy realization, revisited throughout the series, that her "mom card" just plain won't work if Rory simply doesn't listen to her.

 

I think Lorelai's "mom card" was kind of defective anyways.  It's the problem of her being her daughter's best friend versus her mother.  Either you are an authority figure to your kid or you aren't.  You can't just turn it off and on as you please, and not expect that to backfire. 

[katha]

I think Lorelai's "mom card" was kind of defective anyways.  It's the problem of her being her daughter's best friend versus her mother.  Either you are an authority figure to your kid or you aren't.  You can't just turn it off and on as you please, and not expect that to backfire. 

Yeah, I thought Lorelai was a wonderfully encouraging and loving mother to Rory. But in that aspect she wanted to have it both ways and it blew up in her face. On the one hand she had a tendency to idealize Rory and shift blame for her behaviour onto other people. So it was the grandparents influencing her, or Jess or Paris or Logan or Mitchum or whoever being responsible for actions or character traits  or life decisions Lorelai didn't like. But when she did lay down the law and confronted Rory about her own crappy behaviour and pointed out that Rory was accountable for her mistakes, Rory threw hissy fits and didn't listen. Partly since she'd gotten used to being the "good kid" and seeing herself as special and entitled to getting away with things, no matter how nice and good-natured and kind she also was. Of course that doesn't let Rory off the hook, she was responsible for her own questionable decision making and that she had a problem about facing truths about herself or listening to criticism was ultimately on her.

[junienmomo]

 The writers only have one idea of courting.  I'm going to wait and see what book Logan forces her to read. 

Without spoiling it for you and without jumping ahead to the wrong season, since this is a season 2 thread, I did want to go momentarily off-topic and say that the (or one of the) Logan/Rory book moments is the funniest book moment of the series.

 

Back on topic, it never occurred to me that this was the only way to court Rory. Great analysis. No wonder Tristan never stood a chance. He wasn't a book guy at all. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

Also, I'm sure you guys have rehashed this but it's very funny that Dean is introduced as a guy who reads a lot and that Rory 'flirts' and 'woos' with this person by forcing him to read things and agreeing to read things he wants her to (Hunter S. Thompson?).  Then the writers have Jess show up on the scene and they put Dean on the backburner as Jealous Guy and Jess is in the exact same place Dean was before, agreeing to read things that Rory recommends (Ayn Rand) and asking her to read things he recommends.  The writers only have one idea of courting.

 

 

I'm fresh from rewatching S1 and I don't want to be pedantic, but I've seen a lot of fans around these parts making similar observations so I just want to adress that Dean makes ONE comment, very early in season one, that one could interpret as him having a fondness for reading, where he recommends Hunter S. Thompson to Rory (like you've mentioned)... and never again. A little later in the season, he expresses to Rory he dislikes her recommendations, such as Anna Karenina, and isn't seen actually reading for pleasure, on his own volition, ever.

 

So I don't know, I personally always found very easy to assume he might have been attempting to keep up with her in those very early days of their relationship, reading Rory quite accurately that she'd be into another bookworm. Never did it seem to me like the other way around. Hell, I'd bet good money Hunter S. Thompson was a name drop to keep up with the banter.

 

So, when we see him making comments about watching Rory browse in a bookstore for 5 hours or him being more overtly jealous in season 2, it feels to me like a natural development, if that, from s1!Dean. He was always quick to raise his voice to Rory, imo.

 

So yeah, I never got the whole thing about the writers giving Jess S1!Dean's most interesting atributes. IMO, he was always whinny, moody, jealous and strangely agressive. Let us not forget of the iconic "Because I'll kill you" to Tristan back when him and Rory weren't even officially boyfriend and girlfriend, and of course how he blowns up on Rory when she can't say "I love you" back.

 

And if anyone is interested, he did the hanging around in trees all day waiting for Rory thing and the calling 8 times a night thing back in season 1 as well, which I happily watch Rory steadily grow sick of in season 2. Lorelai, of couse, always thought it was adorable.

Edited March 29, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[Ms Blue Jay]

You have a good point in that you never see Dean reading for fun, yet that was what Jess was doing, pretty much 23/7, the other time he spent either sleeping or bantering with Luke.   Or, standing at events that Rory was at and watching her from afar ;)

 

Dean really did make an effort to be into what Rory was into, especially at the beginning with the Movie Night episode.  The funny thing is you don't really see Jess ever having to make an 'effort'; it's shown more naturally.  I guess that's the writers' way of saying that Jess was a more natural match for her... 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Viqutorious]

Regarding casual dating:

I recall, not sure which episode, Lorelai encouraging Rory to go out to dinner with that guy from Yale, Rory balked because it wasn't going to go anywhere so why bother. Lorelai then pointed out to Rory that she has never dated, she was always in a relationship. Then Rory turned it around on Lorelai. I remember them forgetting Alex during that discussion, who I thought was her most casual relationship.

Wait, I got ahead of season 2! Sorry

Edited March 30, 2016 by CheeseBurgh

[solotrek]

She also dated that young guy from her class and right afterward said "I'm a casual dater!" So...that's a casual date. Also the date with Jon Hamm. But yeah...anyways. Season 2!

 

Dean really did make an effort to be into what Rory was into, especially at the beginning with the Movie Night episode.  The funny thing is you don't really see Jess ever having to make an 'effort'; it's shown more naturally.

 

I think Dean made and effort to be into what Rory AND Lorelai were into. Whereas Jess just meshed with Rory but gave no cares about Lorelai. I think that's the biggest difference in the relationships.

 

The scene with double date night with Max and all the "marriage advice" would have only worked with Dean. It was an almost creepy and odd scene. If you need advice on your fiance from her teenage daughter's boyfriend that close to your wedding, it's time to re-evaluate the impending nuptials.

[Melancholy]

Yeah, I found Lorelai's speech condescending and drippy. And as Jess rightly said, she didn't know anything about him and his situation so doling out overbearing life advice like that to basically a total stranger was never going to be a hit. I think Jess would have actually reacted better if she had just busted his ass for the beer drinking and told him cut it out. But piling on the "cool mom, I can totally relate" shtick was cringeworthy. So Jess flung out the most hurtful thing he could think of, the point where she'd shown herself to be vulnerable (he was good about that, the little jerk, getting under people's skins about their weaknesses), so she would stop and back off. And after that Lorelai's chill persona falls off and she becomes openly hostile. Jess probably felt vindicated that he had exposed her or something. And I do think this is a point where Jess is generally unfair, mostly towards adults, in that he believes the worst about them and then provokes them accordingly. It's understandable given his background, but still.

 

The show was actually fairly realistic about Jess, I thought. He was a messed up kid, one speech from Lorelai wouldn't make a difference. Neither would everything immediately be okay because Luke and Rory loved him and were supportive. Though you see him gradually changing around them. He's taken with Rory and tries with her, though his issues still get in the way. And I love that the recent GG rewatch recaps pointed out the Jess/Luke dynamic as a highlight. It's cool to see how Jess stays sarcastic and snarky about Luke, but gradually it loses almost all sting and malice. By the point Nicole is in the picture, it's basically friendly and hilarious teasing. So it made sense that he needed years and de-tours to straigthen himself out, Rory and Luke couldn't do it for him. But they were both good, positive forces in his life, something he didn't seem used to. And in the end he could show his appreciation and gratitude towards them. It also rang true that he wouldn't stay in SH, his hate for the town seemed heartfelt and all-consuming.

 

Going back, I agree so much with all of this. I can just imagine how a teenage Lorelai would have reacted to some stranger friend of her parents giving a "Your parents are great people. They love you. You're unbelievably lucky to have them" lecture that Lorelai is just supposed to embrace. I don't know if she would have accused the meddler of wanting to get it on with Richard or Emily because they're like...married but I can totally see her angrily reacting that they must be on her parents' payroll and they can go fuck off. Heck, adult!Lorelai doesn't react well to people who like her parents, acting like approval of her parents isolates her. Basically, Lorelai never would have stood for the drippy self-important lecture that she tried to stuff down Jess's throat. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

The ins and outs of ins - Heh, kinda of a boring episode. I'm not crazy about the way they chose to introduce Mia's character and I think it's the scene with Luke that does it. It just feels heavy-handed like: look, Mia is so awesome that even grumpy Luke likes her. There's the cringe-worthy shot right at the begining when they enter the diner and SP gives the cheesiest smile. I guess, on some level, I just don't buy her character.

 

The chemistry between Jess and Rory is insane. Oh, man, they had such promise. Why must season 3 exist? Why???

 

Run Away Little boy - so they did in fact cram an entire arc for Tristan in one episode right? I don't mind, exactly. While I prefer him over Dean, the more I rewatch the show the more I find Tristan annoying and I think he was writen way too obnoxiously for 95% percent of S1 to ever make a return from that. Rory, clunkly, bringing up how smart he is isn't enough and I kinda feel the character had run his course by this point. I mean, Rory was NEVER gonna be seriously tempted to dump Dean for him, let alone do it, so what are the stakes?

 

 

Going back, I agree so much with all of this. I can just imagine how a teenage Lorelai would have reacted to some stranger friend of her parents giving a "Your parents are great people. They love you. You're unbelievably lucky to have them" lecture that Lorelai is just supposed to embrace.

 

 

This is such amazing point. Lorelai is so weird around teenage boys, man, I swear.

Edited April 2, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[cuddlingcrowley]

A-tisket, A-tasket -- is such an amazing episode. Probably one of my favorite ones of the entire series. I love how everything comes to a head, not only do we get Jess and Rory being on a pretty incredible sorta date after several episodes on tension building up -- WHICH WILL MAKE ME FOREVER CALL BULLSHIT on the strained, emotionless way they're written in S3 -- but we also get the inevitability of Rory finally blowing up about the lack of boundaries between her mother and her boyfriend.

 

She acts every bit as annoyed about Dean going behind her back to talk to Lorelai and Lorelai chosing his side as I would. I guess I only feel a little bit robbed by not seeing Rory going off on Dean about that as well. Boy, would that have been glorious -- her actually doing the yelling for a change.

 

Dean is never as unnactractive to me as during this episode. I'm sorry, the going off to whine to Lorelai really, really irks me even if I don't take in account it's been established in canon he's very aware how big of an influence Lorelai is on Rory and of course Lorelai fell completely for his bullshit about worrying Jess would get Rory in trouble. It just seems so weak. But then, that's how people called Christopher, as well, so Lorelai does have a type. Yes, I had to to go there.

 

Despite Rory eventually brushing it off, I kinda think this is the begining of the end of their relationship. Up until this point, despite showing the beginings of crush on  Jess, she still seemed pretty happy with Dean but IIRC the tension only keeps building up between them..

 

This is the point that gets tricky for me. Because, on one hand, I believe Rory has reached the point of no return with that phonecall to Jess. She should have realized that and ended things with Dean once and for all. That said, would she be Rory if she had done that? Maybe. I'd like to believe that if Lorelai had reacted differently to what went down during this episode, and had actually been suppportive of Rory picking the guy she's really interested in, then I believed Rory would have gone ahead and done it. Alas...

 

Also, I'd like to add that Jess picking up Rory's bracelet was 5 kinds of adorable as was him fiddling with it during the phonecall with Rory. IMO, he clearly didn't mean anything by it. Who among us hasn't jumped at the chance to have something from a crush? But, of course, he'll get treated like a criminal for it.

 

 

It Should've been Lorelai - Good Lord is Christopher beautiful in seasons 1 and 2. I take it back, through that time period I ship Lorelai/Christopher the best. I still love you Max!

Edited April 5, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[Melancholy]

She acts every bit as annoyed about Dean going behind her back to talk to Lorelai and Lorelai chosing his side as I would. I guess I only feel a little bit robbed by not seeing Rory going off on Dean about that as well. Boy, would that have been glorious -- her actually doing the yelling for a change.

 

Dean is never as unnactractive to me as during this episode. I'm sorry, the going off to whine to Lorelai really, really irks me even if I don't take in account it's been established in canon he's very aware how big of an influence Lorelai is on Rory and of course Lorelai fell completely for his bullshit about worrying Jess would get Rory in trouble. It just seems so weak. But then, that's how people called Christopher, as well, so Lorelai does have a type. Yes, I had to to go there.

 

I know, right? In Lorelai's defense, parents really do flip out at first blush of a warning that someone intends on getting their kid into trouble. Lorelai isn't a teenager, she doesn't go to Stars Hallow High or even have a kid there anymore. She's definitely going to leap like a dog with a bone at Dean saying that his classmate is trouble for Rory since Dean's more plugged in. However, Dean's really being disingenuous. It's probably not a calculated dishonesty, but it's Dean convincing himself that his sanctimonious jealous grudge is totally righteous impartial protectiveness. It's tricky. I viscerally agree with Rory that it's a turn-off beyond turn-off that your boyfriend decided to deal with his romantic jealousy by tattle-taling rumors to your mother and then, trying to get your mother to make her daughter be a better girlfriend with her powers as a mother. Ick. You'd think Lorelai could get that too since she's so plugged in to Rory and I know this crap would tick her off if she was in Rory's shoes. However, yes, again, I have to go the All Parents Excuse because most parents do love their-child's-peer-granted authority. 

 

I find Rory so unformed and naive by S2 that I don't think she's in touch with how much she'd rather be with Jess or even that she has a huge crush on him. She's in denial, even as late as Lorelai's Graduation Day when Lorelai points it out to her. I also think Dean really diminished Rory's previously genuine attraction to him big-time with his behavior in A Tisket, A Tasket and his general clingy weirdness in S2 but yes, Lorelai and Dean basically convinced a gullible, young Rory that she was wrong to feel that way. I really can't get angry at her for The Triangle until the kiss at the end of S2 where there's clear awareness of her feelings for Jess but even after that, it still doesn't feel intentionally dishonest enough or like Rory should have been more self-aware but she didn't because of a fault on her part beyond youth and naivette and people-pleasing. I remain on Rory's side, throughout. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

I know, right? In Lorelai's defense, parents really do flip out at first blush of a warning that someone intends on getting their kid into trouble. Lorelai isn't a teenager, she doesn't go to Stars Hallow High or even have a kid there anymore. She's definitely going to leap like a dog with a bone at Dean saying that his classmate is trouble for Rory since Dean's more plugged in. However, Dean's really being disingenuous. It's probably not a calculated dishonesty, but it's Dean convincing himself that his sanctimonious jealous grudge is totally righteous impartial protectiveness.

 

 

Oh. yeah, I don't blame Lorelai AT ALL for falling for Dean's manipulation. 

 

 It's tricky. I viscerally agree with Rory that it's a turn-off beyond turn-off that your boyfriend decided to deal with his romantic jealousy by tattle-taling rumors to your mother and then, trying to get your mother to make her daughter be a better girlfriend with her powers as a mother. Ick. (....) also think Dean really diminished Rory's previously genuine attraction to him big-time with his behavior in A Tisket, A Tasket and his general clingy weirdness in S2 but yes, Lorelai and Dean basically convinced a gullible, young Rory that she was wrong to feel that way.

 

 

ITA so hard!

 

I really can't get angry at her for The Triangle until the kiss at the end of S2 where there's clear awareness of her feelings for Jess but even after that, it still doesn't feel intentionally dishonest enough or like Rory should have been more self-aware but she didn't because of a fault on her part beyond youth and naivette and people-pleasing. I remain on Rory's side, throughout.

 

 

 

Yeah, I also don't think Rory was intentionally dishonest in her relationship with Dean. Whenever people say she was horrible to him and wah wah wah I always have a viceral reaction in disagreement because, to me, that entails she made the conscious choice to string along the guy she was falling out of love with and was too coward to go after the guy she really liked. When in fact, I think both Lorelai and Dean came onto her so hard about Jess being a bad guy and Dean being the "perfect boyfriend" that I honestly believe Rory believed she didn't have a choice in the matter.

 

That said, I'm rewatching "Lost and Found" right now and I don't think I've ever found season 2 more fascinating. If you're like me and rages out at the very memory of season 3, then you can get pretty damn satisfied with Jess and Rory's relationship in season 2 alone. A-tisket, A-tasked is obviously a first date and it was great; they talked books, went out for pizza and then to a bookstore + bonus late night phone call. You can't find a better first date than that for Rory and Jess even in fan fic.

 

In Lost and Found you got the bringing the guy to meet the parents thing. I LOVE how assertive Rory is when she confronts Jess about being able to hold a perfectly good conversation with her and that if he cares about her at all he will attempt to be at least midly polite to her mother. Jess, is just as great, confronting the idea of why he should bother getting along with Lorelai at all, then flirting and flustering the hell out of Rory before quietly but honestly agreeing he'll try. Which he will. Seriously, where were these two characters in season 3?

Edited April 5, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[junienmomo]

I know, right? In Lorelai's defense, parents really do flip out at first blush of a warning that someone intends on getting their kid into trouble. Lorelai isn't a teenager, she doesn't go to Stars Hallow High or even have a kid there anymore. She's definitely going to leap like a dog with a bone at Dean saying that his classmate is trouble for Rory since Dean's more plugged in. However, Dean's really being disingenuous. It's probably not a calculated dishonesty, but it's Dean convincing himself that his sanctimonious jealous grudge is totally righteous impartial protectiveness. It's tricky. I viscerally agree with Rory that it's a turn-off beyond turn-off that your boyfriend decided to deal with his romantic jealousy by tattle-taling rumors to your mother and then, trying to get your mother to make her daughter be a better girlfriend with her powers as a mother. Ick. You'd think Lorelai could get that too since she's so plugged in to Rory and I know this crap would tick her off if she was in Rory's shoes. However, yes, again, I have to go the All Parents Excuse because most parents do love their-child's-peer-granted authority. 

It's actually more than this excellent insight. Lorelai isn't just the parent, behaving like you describe, she's also Rory's best friend and this relationship bobble shows us that as long as Lorelai acts like a teenager, there's no need for Lane. Dean could just as easily turned to Lane as Rory's "best friend" and told her essentially the same thing.

Then the weirdness wouldn't be 'my mom is interfering in my relationship' but 'Dean went crying to my best friend.'

That would have opened two possibilities. One, Lane wouldn't have hesitated to say "dump Dean," and two, it would have opened the classic TV teenager opportunity for Lane and Dean to try a relationship.

But that would have left Lorelai with nothing to do except have lunch with Luke, have him follow up on "This is nice," then bam into a relationship and oops, per ASP, the show would have been over. Nothing left but soap opera.

Lane would have been the better best friend here, because what Rory really needed to hear was "dump him."

[cuddlingcrowley]

Lane would have been the better best friend here, because what Rory really needed to hear was "dump him."

 

Truest words have never been spoken!

 

There's the rub - It doesn't seem belivable to me that Rory and Dean would be kissing at some tree after last week, so whatever. Why does Lorelai get to bear Rory's righteous wrath and Dean gets kisses? Damn, Lorelai is good at talking Rory down.

 

Dean is a whole new level of annoying. So, you have plans with your girlfriend to spend the entire Saturday together and when she says she wants to spend Friday evening just chilling alone, you act wronged like she just called your mother a cow? Bitch, if you had been my boyfriend in highschool you'd have been so luck to get whole three hours of my weekend.

 

To be fair, by the end of the episode Rory seems as excited by their date as I would be.

 

BTW, has anyone bothered to count how many times Rory says, "Don't be mad" to Dean? There's something wrong with that guy, I swear. He's like a huge toddler -- whenever he doesn't get his way it's instantly tantrum time! I'm not even gonna talk about him barging in Rory's house yelling "what the hell!".

 

Good for Rory for not giving in and fighting for her evening alone! You made every introvert on the planet proud, girl!

 

It kinda breaks my heart a little how weary Rory is in that last scene and doesn't that ring any warning bells at all to Lorelai? Good Lord. It's like the fact that Dean will never reach bellow Rory's shoulders is all there is to her.

 

Rory and Jess in season 2 is BY FAR the best writen romance in GG, IMO. The entire season is great but from A-tisket, A-tasket foward, every episode is just perfection for their development. I don't think I've ever realized Jess brought the carepackage for Rory so they could have the evening together and he'd finally make a move. Rory's moment of realization where being alone with Jess would lead is priceless.I LOVE their banter. How they both keep trying to get the other to admit their crush. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[cuddlingcrowley]

Back in the Saddle Again - Rory being annoyed with Dean is glorious. I love this episode!

 

You know the thing Dean does where he and Rory already have plans to spend time together really soon and he come ups with additional plans between now and then? And then he acts like a spoiled 4 year old with anger issues when Rory explains she already has other stuff going on?

 

...yep...

 

I'm so glad he's a fictional character, you don't understand. No one real could ever be this annoying right? Right?

 

ETA: so, rewatching "there's the rub" this time around, I remember thinking the moment Rory invites Paris to stay to serve as hers and Jess' chaperone it might have been the first time she consciously considered her attraction to Jess even if it was only long enough so she could contain the damage it could cause. Then, Dean arrived and things went on an all time low. He was vicious, imo. Like, I have no doubt in my mind that for all Lorelai's rose colored glasses, if she had arrived in the middle of that, of this huge guy barging in her house yelling, towering over her daughter, shouting at her and poor Rory so intimidated and overwhelmed she couldn't put together a sentence... she'd have disposed of Dean's body with her bare hands.

 

But then, Paris lied and saved the day and the fight was over.... or was it?

 

"Back in the Saddle Again" is the following Dean-episode and Rory is SO DONE, man. Even Lorelai and Dean finally get that as well.

Edited April 8, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[FrumiusManxome]

Dean's whole arc this season not only makes me angry with him, but I end up so utterly disgusted with Lorelai. Dean's always had the basis for these tendencies. Watching everything altogether back to back makes it clear that it wasn't a sudden change in character. There was no moment where I felt as if they had 'ruined' Dean's characterization. It all felt very sequential to me. He always was a bit possessive and he was always quick to anger. 

 

Honestly, there were so many instances in which I wanted to sit Rory down and tell her that she did not have to put up with all of this nonsense.@cuddlingcrowley That's my least favorite thing about Dean. His constant desire to spend almost all his time with Rory. It was as if he had no interests of his own or friends?? Rory didn't have many friends because she's such an introvert and her best friend is basically locked up most of the time. However, she had a plethora of things she enjoyed doing alone to counteract that. Dean had neither of these things past his apparent best friend that we never saw again after he and Lane didn't work out. It was as if his entire life was Rory and Doose's Market.

 

I think what bothers me the most is that Dean is so irrational. Like when he got mad about Tristan being Romeo to her Juliet. Not only is that out of Rory's hands, but there was no need to fly off the handle like that. All it did was stress Rory out (though she should have told Dean she kissed Tristan already anyways) and Tristan got worse because he knew it was bothering Dean. Nor was it in any way conducive to sit there and basically chaperone their rehearsal.  The entire situation is ridiculous because Rory knew from the beginning Dean would not help the situation. And Lorelai was only concerned with Rory telling Dean about the kiss, not the fact that her 16 year old daughters boyfriend was acting like he was Rory's father.  

 

Lorelai ignores all kinds of things about Dean because he's cute and generally well-meaning. Well-meaning is not the same as actually being a good person. More often than not Dean was actually being weird, but Lorelai would push Rory to 'understand' or forgive because the intentions behind it were good. Sometimes it feels as if Lorelai was so in love with this idea of Dean that she didn't actually take the time to look at what he really was like.

 

Jess is a non-issue for me at this point. It's not morally correct to try to move in on someone who is spoken for, but if the person is receptive to it then how can he be faulted for pushing it?

 

I don't fault Rory for not being honest with herself about her feelings. There are plenty of things I haven't done for fear of inciting my mother's disapproval. I wouldn't expect Rory to dump Dean so quickly when she knows how much Lorelai likes him and despises Jess. It's probably even harder for her since this is essentially the first time she'd be doing something so against her mother that would last for longer than a week. On top of that it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that you no longer love someone like you thought you did. 

 

There are other things about Season 2, of course, but I'm currently watching A-Tisket A-Tasket and I'm just really irritated. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

To this day I don't understand why Lorelai is so up Dean's ass.  Apparently Dean reminds Lorelai of Christopher, but why?  Seriously, I still don't get it.

 

Theories

- Dean is the kind of guy Lorelai would be interested to if she was in HS

- Dean acts virginal towards Rory

- Dean helps Lorelai around the house

 

I don't understand how to Lorelai's eyes Dean is so much this better, more upstanding, more suitable guy for Rory than Jess, for instance.   I kept waiting to see examples of Dean being overly polite, but he'd always say things like "Hi" or "Yeah", rather than "Yes, Ms. Gilmore" or "Hello" for instance.  He never shook anybody's hands, that I can remember.  (My mother was the kind of mother who only respected kids who called her Mrs. ----).  He was just SOME BOY.

 

Rory IS passive aggressive as hell with respect to the Dean/Jess situation, but she's only (what, 16?  I always get this wrong) so I GET IT.  But now that I'm older I see and get that she's an incredibly passive aggressive teenager who runs from any confrontation and conflict and hurt feelings.   I don't blame everything on Dean.  Rory was so overly people-pleasing in a way that actually insults people and treats them badly.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[solotrek]

Dean did try to shake Richard's hand, but he had made up his mind already.

[moonb]

Maybe Dean is Lorelai's physical type. I don't really mean that in a creepy way, just that Lorelai mentions in season 1 that he vaguely resembles Christopher, and so his appeal to Rory is something that Lorelai gets. Except that Dean is safe ( I think Lorelai starts throwing that word around a lot in season 2, plus mentioning she worries less about Rory with Dean than Jess). Their relationship is not very sexual, so Rory won't end up pregnant. Plus Dean follows Lorelai's rules in general (see Lorelai laying down an agreement regarding Rory's relationship with Dean in Kiss and Tell), and he tends to interact equally with Lorelai and Rory, respecting their "package deal" relationship.

Lorelai also might have some pop culture-influenced ideas about what love is supposed to look like that would raise some flags in real life (Romeo and Juliet, or Wuthering Heights, or something else about obsessive love) but that would make her think that all of Dean's attention is ok. It's not that Dean has a problem, it's that Rory's so lovable, and who wouldn't love her? Lorelai doesn't start giving advice to Dean about easing up on the phone calls until Jess is in the picture and there is some competition for Rory's feelings. 

[Aloeonatable]

Lorelai liked Dean because he was non-threatening and respectful of her. She wasn't a witness to his bursts of anger and only later became aware of his stalking tendencies. She liked him and she didn't like Jess. It was that simple.

[JaggedLilPill]

This may fall under an UO, but I felt bad for Dean in season two. 

 

No, he wasn't Mr. Perfect by any means. He had some problematic behaviors, but I'm not sure why that warrants Rory treating him like she did, especially post-Jess kiss. It's as if people excuse Rory pretty much cheating (emotionally at first, and then physically) on him by bringing up how clingy and possessive he was, etc. And how young Rory is.

 

Well, Dean was young too. 

 

I don't think Rory was manipulated to stay in some awful relationship by Lorelai and Dean. Rory was inexperienced, but not stupid. And at the end of the day, Dean was more misguided than anything, but Rory could have and should have been honest. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but man, it was shitty. Again, I can - somewhat - excuse her pre-kiss, but there's no excuse post-kiss. She knew her feelings by then.

 

As an aside, I should say I really am not a big Dean fan, but the Dean/Rory/Jess triangle grates me to no end. It feels like crap when you're with someone and you know they are pulling away, but they deny it and so you try to convince yourself it's okay and that it's even partly your fault. Yeah, Dean's clinginess may have turned her off even more, but Rory was already starting to fall for Jess. So, no amount of space from Dean IMO would have changed that. 

 

Like I said, I am sure it's UO, but the triangle brings Rory down a peg. I expected more from her.