S01.E17: Turn, Turn, Turn

[romantic idiot]

This episode was interesting. Less Skye is always good - and her not being the super saver even better. But just after the episode I thought it would be just my luck to have Ward turn back to the good side due to his love for Skye. And there went any afterglow I may have had. 

So, needless to say,  I really hope he's actually evil - though that's unlikely since they'd have to give him a whole separate cast and a whole separate set. So if he is undercover, that Skye conversation,  I hope would have been a separate assignment. What I'd like is for him to come back and keep playing the team, but they don't seem to be doing that much?

The rest of my thoughts have been covered upthread already, but I'd like to echo that the Hydra symbol at the end, was, truly awesome. 

[Enigma X]

Cranberry, I am not a Skye fan at all but do agree with your assessment. In fact, I think that holds true with all disliked TV/movie characters. It seems that the most popular ones among fans get the brunt of disdain on forums like these. I find myself also disliking many characters (Skye and Ward, and I could name others from many shows) that are TRULY the bulk of the shows fanbase. Go figure...

Edited April 9, 2014 by Enigma X

[nitrofishblue]

I normally watch NCIS and DVR Agents of SHIELD. I can only assume that lots of other folks do the same thing. It sucks when two shows you like are on at the same time. You have to pick the one to watch then and DVR the other to watch later.

[ApathyMonger]

I'm guessing they knew this would be an episode whch would get good word of mouth, and that's why they're repeating it before next week's new episode for people who missed it.

Cranberry, I am not a Skye fan at all but do agree with your assessment. In fact, I think that holds true with all disliked TV/movie characters. It seems that the most popular ones among fans get the brunt of disdain on forums like these. I find myself also disliking many characters (Skye and Ward, and I could name others from many shows) that are TRULY the bulk of the shows fanbase. Go figure...

I don't know if "all" is true *cough*Nikki&Paolo*cough* but there's definitely characters that get hate on the internet who a lot of people like. I've never hated Skye, but I groan whenever some character gives a speech about how great and special she is.

Are there a huge number of Arrow fans who love Laurel? I hope not, but I wouldn't be shocked.

[Cranberry]

I like Skye, and I still groan when someone gives a speech about how great she is. I've said this before, but I think the problem is mostly with Coulson and Ward (and Garrett, although he was playing her), and not with her. I don't think she's done anything annoying lately. Even that kiss with Ward was more about him than her (she confirmed that she wasn't actually hitting on him back at the bar, didn't confess any feelings, and kissed him for luck). I'd been dreading a Skye/Ward hookup and was happy to see how non-sappy that whole thing was.

(Of course, there's always a chance that he's deep undercover, he's brainwashed, or that he's bad but his feelings for Skye will change his allegiance, so I'm remaining cautiously optimistic about the (non-)future of Skye and Ward.)

[caseylane]

I like Skye, and I still groan when someone gives a speech about how great she is. I've said this before, but I think the problem is mostly with Coulson and Ward (and Garrett, although he was playing her), and not with her

 

I think that's it. I didn't actually start disliking Skye, as trite as I found her, until everyone started telling me how flippin' wonderful and special she was.

Edited April 10, 2014 by caseylane

[Sheena]

Give me more of May. Ming Na and Clark Greeg are the reasons I stuck around.

Same! While I sometimes like other characters, they're by far the big reasons I keep watching.

[Kromm]

I'd be angrier about them killing Hand if she were the only strong female character on this show, but we have May and Simmons, as well as Skye (who isn't as bad as TWoPpers make her out to be, in my opinion), and on the villain side, Reyna, as well as multiple good guest star characters. It's not like this is your usual five-man band with the one chick -- this show does treat its female characters well. A show shouldn't kill only male characters just to avoid being accused of fridging (a term I've seen tossed around a lot lately -- Hannibal came under the same fire a couple weeks ago, and it's another show that writes strong, complex female characters).

I am disappointed that Hand is gone, though. I liked her quite a bit. Although it would be a Cap 2 ripoff to have her death be faked, I wouldn't mind if it meant we got to see more of her taking charge and dispensing pointed sarcasm.

We're also likely to see a lot more Maria Hill now that the actresses other major acting commitment is done with,

[Mz Anthrope]

Ward still has the harddrive copy with all of the information Skye loaded.  She gave it to him for 'safekeeping'. 

The more I think about it, the less I trust Simmons.  She gave Stillwell a slight nod when Hand was asking for a sign.  To me, that allowed him to make either move and she would go with it.  She's the one whose been analyzing Skye's blood and the syrum.  She's been dilligent in keeping all that from everyone but Fitz, and I don't believe he knows the full extent or all the details about what she's been doing. 

Skye's character is getting a better script, but she seems completely 'idolized' by the rest of the crew for some reason.  Yes, she may have 'proven' herself useful and trustworthy by all she's done for SHIELD, but she's still (imo) an untested unknown.

Their showing Hand bleeding leads me to believe she's in fact not dead.  Whatever Ward was going through with the noise in his head at the end is still a mystery to me.  Have to talk with the husband to get him to explain.  He catches so much in these episodes.  I'd already read spoilers before we watched the DVR'd episode last night and when Garrett was talking about 'the flowered dress', first thing my husband said was 'Coulson never mentioned that' - even before Coulson said it.  The man is good :-)

Still not sure where all of this will go, but eyeing Simmons suspiciously.

[IndependentMind]

Fans like Skye I guess because Chloe Bennett reminds them of a fan-favorite in the the Whedon Universe of Eliza Dushku. The moment I saw her in the pilot, I had an image of Eliza Dushku. And then Skye irritated me the first 5 episodes until I learned to just tune her out and just roll my eyes.

If it weren't for Coulson and May, I would have stopped watching the show. But I do love tbeir awesome guest stars.

Agent Hill and Nick Fury coming back, I am filled with anticipation. And yes, Agent Hand better be alive!

Edited April 10, 2014 by IndependentMind

[KirkB]

 

The more I think about it, the less I trust Simmons.  She gave Stillwell a slight nod when Hand was asking for a sign.  To me, that allowed him to make either move and she would go with it.  She's the one whose been analyzing Skye's blood and the syrum.  She's been dilligent in keeping all that from everyone but Fitz, and I don't believe he knows the full extent or all the details about what she's been doing.

 

The way they've set everything up, I have to acknowledge the possibility that anyone on the Bus could be Hydra. Even Simmons, as much as I like the character. But I have a hard time imagining a Hydra agent sacrificing themselves to save anyone, even other Hydra agents. She threw herself out of the plane to save everyone else and that doesn't quite fit with me. Now Ward, who IS Hydra, also jumped out of the plane but he did it to save (or pretend to save) Simmons to maintain his cover. He also wasn't risking his life, he had a parachute and obviously knew how to skydive.

Edited April 10, 2014 by KirkB

[Kromm]

Ward still has the harddrive copy with all of the information Skye loaded.  She gave it to him for 'safekeeping'. 

The more I think about it, the less I trust Simmons.  She gave Stillwell a slight nod when Hand was asking for a sign.  To me, that allowed him to make either move and she would go with it.  She's the one whose been analyzing Skye's blood and the syrum.  She's been dilligent in keeping all that from everyone but Fitz, and I don't believe he knows the full extent or all the details about what she's been doing. 

Skye's character is getting a better script, but she seems completely 'idolized' by the rest of the crew for some reason.  Yes, she may have 'proven' herself useful and trustworthy by all she's done for SHIELD, but she's still (imo) an untested unknown.

Their showing Hand bleeding leads me to believe she's in fact not dead.  Whatever Ward was going through with the noise in his head at the end is still a mystery to me.  Have to talk with the husband to get him to explain.  He catches so much in these episodes.  I'd already read spoilers before we watched the DVR'd episode last night and when Garrett was talking about 'the flowered dress', first thing my husband said was 'Coulson never mentioned that' - even before Coulson said it.  The man is good :-)

Still not sure where all of this will go, but eyeing Simmons suspiciously.

I don't see how Hand isn't dead though.  I've read suggestions that maybe Ward is playing evil, but the problem with those theories is that Garrett is no dummy.  He knows dead from mock dead, and Ward killed a whole BUNCH of people and not just Hand.  We've never seen any signs that LMDs exist, and if so Garrett would be as likely to know about them as Hand and Coulson, so I think that's out.  

Another big notion is that Ward is being controlled.  It wouldn't even take Hydra.  We've SEEN him become controlled and I suppose we should wonder if that was all somehow uber-manipulated and this is all an outgrowth of that.

Simmons is indeed suspicious.  If we rewind on ALL of the whining about checking out Skye's blood, I bet it started with her everytime and it was always her manipulating/pushing Fitz.  Really there had to be a reason to have that subplot.  Even if a piece of it leads eventually into Guardians of the Galaxy and/or the next Avengers movie, in the short term there has to be an in-show rationale--that HYDRA definitely knows something is up there and needed that info (thus leading to all of those shenanigans with Skye getting shot and then saved--just to get that done).

[Sarahastro]

I think it's fascinating that this episode finally addressed a lot of the complaints that were brought up in the Ways to Improve Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. topic on the TWOP forums. As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm not sure that it really should have taken 17 episodes to get here because so many fans who probably would have liked the darker, grittier tone have given up long before this, but I'm glad I've stuck with it this far because I'm actually excited to see where things go from here.

• Clarify the purpose of the team. Are they a ragtag group of misfits or an elite team of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s best? Why are they on the Bus? One theory tossed out was that the team was actually there to babysit Coulson, which I thought would be interesting but was probably too dark for this show. I can't believe that turns out to be the truth!
• Make the team feel like they are really part of S.H.I.E.L.D. I definitely had that feeling in this episode. It really helped having them cut back and forth between the scenes of them infiltrating the Hub and Simmons and Tripp inside the Hub with Victoria Hand. It also kind of explained why the team has seemed to disconnected from the rest of S.H.I.E.L.D. - a lot of the other agents were suspicious that Coulson was with Hydra.
• Make there be real consequences. You can't get much more real than Ward killing three people in cold blood and revealing himself to be Hydra. (I'm assuming that's the truth for now. If it is not, I am going to be very disappointed.)

Also, I absolutely loved the fight scene. May kicked ass with some very sweet moves, Coulson fighting Garrett felt personal given their personal history and had almost an older brother/younger brother feel to it, and Fitz saved both of their lives.

[Ghost Bear]

Aside from all the other things y'all have pointed out, the one thing that really stuck out at our AoS watch party (we all saw CA:WS over the weekend to prep ourselves) was the implication that Coulson was working for Hydra up through his death...

A theory one of our group tossed out is that Fury was beginning to discover the conspiracy and took the opportunity to use Colson - once resurrected (either as a LMD or real resuscitation) - as an agent outside of Hydra's influence.

Regardless, we're all hooked once again on this, and we're starting a rewatch from the beginning to see if we can spot other Hydra-signs.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Ghost Bear

[ChelseaNH]

 

If we rewind on ALL of the whining about checking out Skye's blood, I bet it started with her everytime

I bet it did, too.  She's a biochem specialist who knows there's a drug that can bring people back to life.  You don't have to be evil to be interested in figuring out what's up with that.

 

Make there be real consequences. You can't get much more real than Ward killing three people in cold blood and revealing himself to be Hydra.

Those would be actions, not consequences.  A consequence would be Ward going in front of a review board for killing either a valuable prisoner or an innocent man.  But he managed to get out of that...  We did see a consequence of all Coulson's decisions, in that they convinced Hand he was a HYDRA agent.  Naturally, Coulson ends up paying no price.

So far, the only one experiencing consequences is May, since Coulson's freezing her out for watching him.  She should have looked him dead in the eye and said, "Welcome to life on the Index."

Edited April 10, 2014 by ChelseaNH

[Sarahastro]

 

 

 

Make there be real consequences. You can't get much more real than Ward killing three people in cold blood and revealing himself to be Hydra.

Those would be actions, not consequences.  A consequence would be Ward going in front of a review board for killing either a valuable prisoner or an innocent man.  But he managed to get out of that...  We did see a consequence of all Coulson's decisions, in that they convinced Hand he was a HYDRA agent.  Naturally, Coulson ends up paying no price.

So far, the only one experiencing consequences is May, since Coulson's freezing her out for watching him.  She should have looked him dead in the eye and said, "Welcome to life on the Index."

Well, Ward doing that is a consequence of Garrett being revealed to be the Clairvoyant. It's unclear if Ward would have revealed himself in this episode otherwise. But I am also assuming that Ward's actions will have serious consequences for the team because, frankly, how could they not?

Regarding Coulson and May, I am glad that there are consequences of her revelations that she formed this team to watch out for him, she has known about his resurrection the entire time, and she's been reporting everything back to Fury. This is in no way a moral judgment on her actions, but it would have been ridiculous for Coulson to shrug all of that off at the end of the episode given how much time the show has spent on him trying to figure all of this stuff out. And I would point out that they are both experiencing these consequences - their friendship has been seriously damaged. That's not to say that one of them is at fault or one of them deserves it, it is just the natural consequence of what's happened.

[ChelseaNH]

I think the wishlist wasn't about "cause and effect" consequences but aftermath-type consequences.  I'd like to believe there will be real changes going forward, but at this point I've been trained not to trust the writers.

[IndependentMind]

They have yet to delve into what happened to May. Maybe May when through the same thing. Wasn't she almost dead? How did she recover?

[HistoryGirl]

I agree with KirkB about Simmons.  I think the writers were setting up that anyone on the Bus could be the mole.  They did the same thing with Fitz and May earlier on too. (Fitz= why did he need a secure line, who is it that Simmons is talking with; May= why's she talking to Fury).  Also, they had Simmons say rather flatly that she'd gotten better at lying when Trip commented that she was a terrible liar.  Her response was to make the viewer think that she could be the mole and to question anyone and everyone. 

[ChelseaNH]

 

I think the writers were setting up that anyone on the Bus could be the mole.

So the lack of character development wasn't a bug, it was a feature...

[Kromm]

I bet it did, too.  She's a biochem specialist who knows there's a drug that can bring people back to life.  You don't have to be evil to be interested in figuring out what's up with that.

That's not the issue.  It's that for story purposes it's so easily spun into villainy.   It's gray, which makes the best mystery element (that she was doing something scientifically advisable but both going against orders but also personally betraying a few people to do so).

[Sheena]

Okay, so I re-watched episodes 16 and 17 last evening, then spent the day at work listening to episode 17 on a loop (things that happen when I run out of podcasts...) and tried to keep an open mind about who's working for whom, and I'm more conflicted now than I was before. Bloody long-cons, they mess me up...

Anyway, some thoughts on 'Turn, Turn, Turn', relevant or random:

So, do SHIELD planes come with a decent sound system, mugs and a means of making coffee/tea, or did Garrett bring some of those with him? ...what? These are the important questions of our time! ;)

-I quite liked the "You have to believe me!" "No, I don't" bit because every time someone says the former in a book, movie or TV show, I'm always like "Pfft- no, they don't!" and no one seems to ever come out and say it.

-I got a little giggle out of "Boo-yah." It was just cute. :)

-[shallowness]I don't know who is giving the orders regarding hair and makeup (whether it's the actual hair and makeup staff, or if one of the producers is saying 'No, we want x to look like this'), but I would really like to have words with that person. I've always found Simmons' eyebrows to be massively distracting (it's like Coulson is supplementing his income purely doing her eyebrows, they're 150% unnaturally perfectly styled and filled in at all times- I expect her to look like she's on TV, but my gosh, YouTube beauty gurus look less done-up), but Hand's lipstick and red hair streaks are worse. I just want to wash her hair out and pull whoever is dedicatedly doing Simmons' eyebrows so that he or she can keep the lipstick from looking like the actress is drinking coffee between takes. I mean, she likely is, and that's fine, but they have makeup artists on set for a reason... May, Coulson and Fitz always have perfectly acceptable makeup, and Skye is clearly wearing makeup (the character, that is, of course all of the actors are), but it's never taken my attention away from what's going on, so it's not that they're incapable of nailing it... *shrug* Iunno...[/shallowness]

-When Ward confronts a recently-iced May about going behind the team's backs, he seems legitimately to feel betrayed by the action... but the more I think about it, it could just as easily be because he's impressed (not necessarily in a good way) that she can be so cold and he can't or that he's worried that she may have reported some detail which would lead to someone realizing who he is really working for... hmmm.

-Seriously, guys, your whole organization is based on secrets. You have clearance levels for who can know which secrets. Everyone, please dismount your high-horses.

-Ummm... wait, Simmons' friend from the Academy, she said Simmons would "know where to find [her]." Are we going to follow up on that one?

-I've rarely had anything against Fitz, but I've never really liked him either-- I really liked him this week. Even scared that he's about to be tortured and die, that he's about to watch his friends die and knowing that he isn't sure where his very best friend is- even while crying- he tells off Garrett, picks up a gun which clearly frightens him, and shoots someone. Well done, fella.

-The look of realization on Coulson's face when he realizes who Garrett is really working for as well as the breathy line delivery which followed it, like the wind had been knocked out of him, was a nice piece of business. Someone really needs to do a compilation video of TV and movie characters giving up the show of being good and starting to be honest, I love those moments.

-Did anyone else look at the streaks on the floor left by the dragged-off agents and think that they less resembled blood and more resembled raspberry pie filling?

And finally, I'd like to add my voice to the choir of those not trusting Simmons right now because I am not a crackpot... but I think Simmons is either The Clairvoyant or at least with HYDRA.

There are a few things which push me in that direction, the biggest of which is her rather cryptic and otherwise totally irrelevant comment to Trip that she was “getting better at [lying].” If you're just listening to her voice, she sounds very serious about it (like, she's not saying it to be funny). Further, there's a scene in this episode wherein Hand addresses her and says “The worst thing you can do right now is to underestimate HYDRA. They hide in plain sight. They earn our trust, our sympathy. They make us like them.” How fantastic would that scene be if Simmons is the bad guy? Because Coulson, Skye, Ward and May aren’t always likeable to everyone, but it’s hard to find something unsympathetic or untrustworthy about Simmons (or Fitz, for that matter).

Additionally, Garrett never identified himself as The Clairvoyant (it was implied, but it may have been implied instead of stated for a reason) and... I don't know, he's a clever guy, but he doesn't strike me as being smart enough to have his fingers in so many pies at the same time. Simmons, on the other hand... he also stated that he isn't a "true believer" he's an opportunist. So it might make sense for him to hold a high position within HYDRA, but it would make sense to have someone supervising the important aspects of his work, too... maybe someone whose loyalties don't shift so easily.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Cranberry
Misused spoiler tags

[Kromm]

Okay, so I re-watched episodes 16 and 17 last evening, then spent the day at work listening to episode 17 on a loop (things that happen when I run out of podcasts...) and tried to keep an open mind about who's working for whom, and I'm more conflicted now than I was before. Bloody long-cons, they mess me up...

Anyway, some thoughts on 'Turn, Turn, Turn', relevant or random: (tossing it under a cut because I have too many weird thoughts)

-So, do SHIELD planes come with a decent sound system, mugs and a means of making coffee/tea, or did Garrett bring some of those with him? ...what? These are the important questions of our time! ;)

-I quite liked the "You have to believe me!" "No, I don't" bit because every time someone says the former in a book, movie or TV show, I'm always like "Pfft- no, they don't!" and no one seems to ever come out and say it.

-I got a little giggle out of "Boo-yah." It was just cute. :)

-[shallowness]I don't know who is giving the orders regarding hair and makeup (whether it's the actual hair and makeup staff, or if one of the producers is saying 'No, we want x to look like this'), but I would really like to have words with that person. I've always found Simmons' eyebrows to be massively distracting (it's like Coulson is supplementing his income purely doing her eyebrows, they're 150% unnaturally perfectly styled and filled in at all times- I expect her to look like she's on TV, but my gosh, YouTube beauty gurus look less done-up), but Hand's lipstick and red hair streaks are worse. I just want to wash her hair out and pull whoever is dedicatedly doing Simmons' eyebrows so that he or she can keep the lipstick from looking like the actress is drinking coffee between takes. I mean, she likely is, and that's fine, but they have makeup artists on set for a reason... May, Coulson and Fitz always have perfectly acceptable makeup, and Skye is clearly wearing makeup (the character, that is, of course all of the actors are), but it's never taken my attention away from what's going on, so it's not that they're incapable of nailing it... *shrug* Iunno...[/shallowness]

-When Ward confronts a recently-iced May about going behind the team's backs, he seems legitimately to feel betrayed by the action... but the more I think about it, it could just as easily be because he's impressed (not necessarily in a good way) that she can be so cold and he can't or that he's worried that she may have reported some detail which would lead to someone realizing who he is really working for... hmmm.

-Seriously, guys, your whole organization is based on secrets. You have clearance levels for who can know which secrets. Everyone, please dismount your high-horses.

-Ummm... wait, Simmons' friend from the Academy, she said Simmons would "know where to find [her]." Are we going to follow up on that one?

-I've rarely had anything against Fitz, but I've never really liked him either-- I really liked him this week. Even scared that he's about to be tortured and die, that he's about to watch his friends die and knowing that he isn't sure where his very best friend is- even while crying- he tells off Garrett, picks up a gun which clearly frightens him, and shoots someone. Well done, fella.

-The look of realization on Coulson's face when he realizes who Garrett is really working for as well as the breathy line delivery which followed it, like the wind had been knocked out of him, was a nice piece of business. Someone really needs to do a compilation video of TV and movie characters giving up the show of being good and starting to be honest, I love those moments.

-Did anyone else look at the streaks on the floor left by the dragged-off agents and think that they less resembled blood and more resembled raspberry pie filling?

And finally, I'd like to add my voice to the choir of those not trusting Simmons right now because I am not a crackpot... but I think Simmons is either The Clairvoyant or at least with HYDRA.

There are a few things which push me in that direction, the biggest of which is her rather cryptic and otherwise totally irrelevant comment to Trip that she was “getting better at [lying].” If you're just listening to her voice, she sounds very serious about it (like, she's not saying it to be funny). Further, there's a scene in this episode wherein Hand addresses her and says “The worst thing you can do right now is to underestimate HYDRA. They hide in plain sight. They earn our trust, our sympathy. They make us like them.” How fantastic would that scene be if Simmons is the bad guy? Because Coulson, Skye, Ward and May aren’t always likeable to everyone, but it’s hard to find something unsympathetic or untrustworthy about Simmons (or Fitz, for that matter).

Additionally, Garrett never identified himself as The Clairvoyant (it was implied, but it may have been implied instead of stated for a reason) and... I don't know, he's a clever guy, but he doesn't strike me as being smart enough to have his fingers in so many pies at the same time. Simmons, on the other hand... he also stated that he isn't a "true believer" he's an opportunist. So it might make sense for him to hold a high position within HYDRA, but it would make sense to have someone supervising the important aspects of his work, too... maybe someone whose loyalties don't shift so easily.

Eeek!  Have I been underusing the spoiler tags?

[Lantern7]

I'm caught up . . . caught CA:TWS yesterday and saw the episode tonight. Not much new I can bring except this: is anybody else annoyed that nobody did the HYDRA salute? It's the double "Sieg Heil" arms that always makes me laugh because it's so damn goofy.

Ward is a dickbag. With our luck, though, Skye will probably be the one to kneecap him.

ETA: Hand not being HYDRA was unexpected, as was her death. The part where she thought Coulson was HYDRA? Unexpected and a little dumb in hindsight.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Lantern7

[Cranberry]

There's no need to use the spoiler tags unless you're actually posting spoilers -- we can handle long posts. Many of us spent years complying with the 15 pages or 15 days rule at TWoP, after all!

[Sarahastro]

ETA: Hand not being HYDRA was unexpected, as was her death. The part where she thought Coulson was HYDRA? Unexpected and a little dumb in hindsight.

I actually liked that she thought Coulson and his team were Hydra. It seemed reasonable for her to think so given that his resurrection is so mysterious, people have commented how different he is, and he has gone against protocol many times this season. I don't know that the audience was ever supposed to think that he was Hydra, but IMO Hand was certainly justified in being suspicious of him.

[Sheena]

There's no need to use the spoiler tags unless you're actually posting spoilers -- we can handle long posts. Many of us spent years complying with the 15 pages or 15 days rule at TWoP, after all!

I'd use a different tag if one were available, i just don't want to create an eyesore for anyone scrolling through with my ramblings. I have a tendency to be long-winded, so I've just taken to trying to make the sight of it less bothersome.

[HistoryGirl]

but Hand's lipstick and red hair streaks are worse.

 

Funny you should mention that-- I noticed in one scene that SB's lipstick was faded (more mute coloured, than fire engine red) then in the next scene it's bck to fire engine red.  It was as though she took the time to reapply her lipstick when everything was going to hell. 

wait, Simmons' friend from the Academy, she said Simmons would "know where to find [her]." Are we going to follow up on that one?

 

Their friend was their old professor (Agent Weaver) from the Academy.  We met her in "Seeds".  I'm sure we'll be seeing her again.  

 Garrett never identified himself as The Clairvoyant

 

This is a Captain America spoiler, so click at your own risk, but...

no actual person is the Clairvoyant.  The Clairvoyant is ZOLA a computer program made by the WW2 Hydra scientist Zola.  The program can apparently predict the future of any person (I guess their ability to do evil?) so they can eliminate threats, like Bruce Banner or Tony Stark or whomever is presumably a do-gooder. ZOLA/The Clairvoyant couldn't read Coulson and thereby predict his allegiances (Hydra or SHIELD).  ZOLA went through all the files of SHIELD agents and identified the good guys and the bad guys and had the good guys eliminated (why Steve Rogers and Nick Fury are targeted).  Presumably, Raina was "read" by ZOLA. But really all the program does is predict the future based on a series of past actions that are already public knowledge (ie. the death of Coulson's father). This would explain Ward's recruitment.  He's a prime candidate because of having killed his brother and why Garrett knew that May wasn't worth the effort of trying to convert-- she was too strong willed pro-SHIELD.

[Kromm]

-[shallowness]I don't know who is giving the orders regarding hair and makeup (whether it's the actual hair and makeup staff, or if one of the producers is saying 'No, we want x to look like this'), but I would really like to have words with that person. I've always found Simmons' eyebrows to be massively distracting (it's like Coulson is supplementing his income purely doing her eyebrows, they're 150% unnaturally perfectly styled and filled in at all times- I expect her to look like she's on TV, but my gosh, YouTube beauty gurus look less done-up), but Hand's lipstick and red hair streaks are worse. I just want to wash her hair out and pull whoever is dedicatedly doing Simmons' eyebrows so that he or she can keep the lipstick from looking like the actress is drinking coffee between takes. I mean, she likely is, and that's fine, but they have makeup artists on set for a reason... 

In defense of the show, the hair streaks and makup colors are straight out of the comics (which tend towards the garish by nature).

[Kromm]

Okay, one new thing.  I'd totally forgotten that Hand is dead in the Marvel comic book continuity.  That should have been a hint to us that maybe she wasn't long for this Movieverse.  It kind of speaks to the issue of if her death is fake.  It's still very possible, but her not being around in the comics would tend to argue otherwise (because even if the comics are far from the same--for example the manner of Hand's death--Marvel likely would prefer at least ROUGH parallels).

[KirkB]

Is she REALLY dead or just comic dead (ie they're told she died)? Not that it makes any difference, since she'll be alive again as soon as some new writers decides he wants to use her.

As for the show, if she's not really dead Garrett is an idiot. Hydra doesn't even trust itself, so in a world with icers

and whatever they used on Fury in Winter Soldier

it'd be pretty damn stupid for him to not check.

[Kromm]

Is she REALLY dead or just comic dead (ie they're told she died)? Not that it makes any difference, since she'll be alive again as soon as some new writers decides he wants to use her.

As for the show, if she's not really dead Garrett is an idiot. Hydra doesn't even trust itself, so in a world with icers

and whatever they used on Fury in Winter Soldier

it'd be pretty damn stupid for him to not check.

And Garrett isn't an idiot--so that's the greatest possible argument towards the side of the argument that she is.  He's not some goofball who doesn't know these technologies or SHIELD strategies.

[Raja]

The way they've set everything up, I have to acknowledge the possibility that anyone on the Bus could be Hydra. Even Simmons, as much as I like the character. But I have a hard time imagining a Hydra agent sacrificing themselves to save anyone, even other Hydra agents. She threw herself out of the plane to save everyone else and that doesn't quite fit with me. Now Ward, who IS Hydra, also jumped out of the plane but he did it to save (or pretend to save) Simmons to maintain his cover. He also wasn't risking his life, he had a parachute and obviously knew how to skydive.

Besides Garrett who jumped to the strong side why wouldn't a Hydra be as dedicated as a SHIELD, an American soldier, Nazi, Soviet or any other fighting for the cause.

Entire generation's of Hydra had to be sacrificing themselves since they were also SHIELD agents before the civil war began.

[Sheena]

Funny you should mention that-- I noticed in one scene that SB's lipstick was faded (more mute coloured, than fire engine red) then in the next scene it's bck to fire engine red.  It was as though she took the time to reapply her lipstick when everything was going to hell. 

Their friend was their old professor (Agent Weaver) from the Academy.  We met her in "Seeds".  I'm sure we'll be seeing her again.  

This is a Captain America spoiler, so click at your own risk, but...

no actual person is the Clairvoyant.  The Clairvoyant is ZOLA a computer program made by the WW2 Hydra scientist Zola.  The program can apparently predict the future of any person (I guess their ability to do evil?) so they can eliminate threats, like Bruce Banner or Tony Stark or whomever is presumably a do-gooder. ZOLA/The Clairvoyant couldn't read Coulson and thereby predict his allegiances (Hydra or SHIELD).  ZOLA went through all the files of SHIELD agents and identified the good guys and the bad guys and had the good guys eliminated (why Steve Rogers and Nick Fury are targeted).  Presumably, Raina was "read" by ZOLA. But really all the program does is predict the future based on a series of past actions that are already public knowledge (ie. the death of Coulson's father). This would explain Ward's recruitment.  He's a prime candidate because of having killed his brother and why Garrett knew that May wasn't worth the effort of trying to convert-- she was too strong willed pro-SHIELD.

I found that it looked like the same colour, but it had faded off of the inside of the lips in numerous scenes- happens when one wears lipstick for a while or takes a sip of something- but this is my point, it's inconsistent. The on-set makeup artists shouldn't be letting that happen.

Oh, I remember her- I don't refer to her as "Agent Weaver" because I have difficulty enough remembering the main characters' names (until last week, Ward was "The Bland Guy"), so I tend to refer to the supporting and guests cast by nicknames too (Agent Weaver has been "Long Game Girl"). I'm not so much wondering if we'll see her again in the abstract or where she's from, I'm wondering specifically about the comment that Simmons would know where she would go to hide. If they aren't going to address that specifically, it would be a strange comment to just toss out- they could just as easily have cut the transmission off before she said it.

I haven't seen CA: WS yet (I believe that I'm up to three attempts to see it which have been torpedoed now, frankly I think I'm just going to go solo on cheap Tuesday next week), so I'll skip the spoiler for now, but hopefully soon I'll be able to read it- I'm very curious! :)

In defense of the show, the hair streaks and makup colors are straight out of the comics (which tend towards the garish by nature).

Eesh- that's definitely a fair point, I just think that it would have been better left in the comics.

[Last Time Lord]

I went into The Winter Soldier almost completely blind, having only seen the first trailer and reading no spoilers about it. And after the movie finished, I really wanted to watch this show. (Saw the first few episodes, but stopped due to lack of time to set aside and actually watch it) So, I went on Hulu, and well, they only have the most recent episodes (#FirstWorldProblems, I know), so I watched Yes Men through this one.

My biggest disappointment with this episode is Ward did not say "Hail Hydra" or anything along those lines after killing Hand.

Based on the very little of this show I've actually seen, I'm much more interested in Ward now that he's revealed as Hydra.

[Raja]

I went into The Winter Soldier almost completely blind, having only seen the first trailer and reading no spoilers about it. And after the movie finished, I really wanted to watch this show. (Saw the first few episodes, but stopped due to lack of time to set aside and actually watch it) So, I went on Hulu, and well, they only have the most recent episodes (#FirstWorldProblems, I know), so I watched Yes Men through this one.

My biggest disappointment with this episode is Ward did not say "Hail Hydra" or anything along those lines after killing Hand.

Based on the very little of this show I've actually seen, I'm much more interested in Ward now that he's revealed as Hydra.

Only we don't actually know Ward actually is HYDRA. What TV has that the movies don't is time. It could just be another misdirect. As spies they still have to root out HYDRA from SHIELD as best they can. Congressional committees from the movie can't do that it will be the teams lead by Coulson's and Hand's who have to do the daily slogging work.

[HistoryGirl]

My biggest disappointment with this episode is Ward did not say "Hail Hydra" or anything along those lines after killing Hand.

 

I think that's the point.  We're supposed to question his allegiances. It's probably the same reason why Ward gave Coulson the nod before he left.  Is he working FOR Coulson?  Is he working for Hydra?  Is he a triple agent?  I think the lack of a Hail Hydra and his weird white noise moment at the end of the episodes certainly leave the door open for him to have an ulterior motive.  Although I'd be very shocked if killing Hand was an order from Coulson.  Coulson seems like the kind of guy that wants to maintain his allies, not knock them off. Unless his brain is short circuiting, which I suppose is also a possibility. 

[caseylane]

My take, if Ward is a triple agent, is that Coulson told him to do whatever was necessary to get as deep as he can. That someone like Hand and the others would gladly give their lives in defense of the world. Kind of like when May said that when she went into that building she did what needed to be done and wouldn't talk about it. One of the reasons that Ward is on the team is that he can do the hard job, and that's what he's doing.

Now, I'm up in the air as to what his true motivations are. As long as it's not getting a white picket fence with Skye and cooing about how wonderful she is, I'm happy to sit back and find out.

[HistoryGirl]

Now, I'm up in the air as to what his true motivations are. As long as it's not getting a white picket fence with Skye and cooing about how wonderful she is, I'm happy to sit back and find out.

 

When Ward and Skye were having their little chat in that closet, I was literally yelling at my TV, "Ain't nobody got time for that!" Seriously, the world is in peril and you're talking about getting a drink and being all schmoopy. Please. Talk later. 

Side thought- how the hell did Ward defeat all those soldiers in the hall?  He was grossly outnumbered and had a knife at his disposal.  Did he Hail Hydra them into submission? 

Another side thought- do we think that May loves Coulson?  She seemed to trip up on her words when she was trying to defend her actions and settled with "I care a lot about you."  I'm very curious about her past with Coulson. There seems to be way more to it. Especially since Garrett didn't even bother with her, gave her a frowny face (ha!) and said she'd die for him (Coulson). 

Edited April 12, 2014 by HistoryGirl

[ChelseaNH]

I prefer the comrades-in-the-trenches approach to the comrades-in-arms approach to May and Coulson.

[KirkB]

I was actually considering the possibility that Ward went out, did the hail Hydra bit to get the guards to listen, then told them to fire their guns and yell for a while to convince Skye he was fighting them. I forget, did they actually show the bodies afterwards? Because if he just sent them away it wouldn't surprise me that Skye didn't notice.

[HistoryGirl]

I was actually considering the possibility that Ward went out, did the hail Hydra bit to get the guards to listen, then told them to fire their guns and yell for a while to convince Skye he was fighting them. I forget, did they actually show the bodies afterwards? Because if he just sent them away it wouldn't surprise me that Skye didn't notice.

I just double checked.  Ward is being dog piled by like 5 or 6 Hydra agents, he's on the floor being kicked and sees the knife.  Then the camera switches to Skye's POV and she hears the punching and grunting and then footsteps coming to the door.  Ward then opens the door, Skye has a line and we go to Coulson's POV.  We don't see what was in the hall. 

Interestingly though, when he opens the door to Skye, he's holding a gun in his hands.  But no shots were ever heard. 

Edited April 13, 2014 by HistoryGirl

[KirkB]

So for all he know he could have had them fight him for a while (to get bloody and bruised) then sent them away, and afterward told Skye he hid the bodies. Something tells me she'd believe him.

Come to think of it couldn't we have that backwards? What if the people they saw were actually SHIELD agents? Then Ward might actually have fought and killed them.

Edited April 13, 2014 by KirkB

[Raja]

This is confusing me. All of the Hydra agents are real SHIELD agents except the two political leaders shown in the movie. All of the 70 years they were sleepers and doing the stuff Big SHIELD did. Going forward the show has to deal with that

[KirkB]

I am rewatching the episode as I type this. Hand has rounded up the Hydra agents where she is and secured them by the time Coulson's team arrives. She has her own teams sweeping the halls, looking for stragglers, which means the guys Ward kills may, in fact, be SHIELD agents. Except I just got to the Garrett scene and there are still Hydra agents in their ranks. So unless Ward knows which ones are which, icing the Hydras and killing the SHIELDs, any of his own people must be acceptable losses.

Edited April 13, 2014 by KirkB

[Raja]

Only half of the cleared junior agents turned when Garrett outed himself. Hand was only sure of 7 middle managers

[HistoryGirl]

Only half of the cleared junior agents turned when Garrett outed himself. Hand was only sure of 7 middle managers

5.  The extra 2 were Simmons and Triplett. 

[Kromm]

This is confusing me. All of the Hydra agents are real SHIELD agents except the two political leaders shown in the movie. All of the 70 years they were sleepers and doing the stuff Big SHIELD did. Going forward the show has to deal with that

There's no requirement that HYDRA people start out as HYDRA people.  A big point was that HYDRA subverts people already in place.

[GonzoBear]

I'm late to the party but I really liked this episode and am happy with how the show is evolving. I really hope Ward is HYDRA as this would certainly shake up the team and make them have to earn the whole "family" angle (it's felt a little too forced so far). 

Did anyone else notice the story we heard Garrett rambling about at the end of the episode sounded like the same story he told Coulson in the episode before? I think there is something there - the fact that he forgot Coulson was present when he retold it to him, and the fact he (seems to be) telling the same story this week again. Maybe a nod to the ability to play with people's heads that has run all season... 

[myril]

Sounded like the same story, skylight and flare gun, although that might be things Garrett adds to every story he tells. What stuck out to me was, that Garrett said in this story he was "deep undercover". Might mean nothing though.