Legends of Crush Objects, Partners, Teammates, (and Everything Else): The Relationship Thread

[Miss Dee]

Part of that is that they live as well as work together. They're like a submarine crew. The Arrow and Flash teams are close, but are still living separate lives.

That'd be sort of fun to have the other teams comment on - how the Legends folk are all up in each other's business and fight like family and have very little emotional and psychological distance between their members. Hell, even Mick is getting into it.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think some adult actors should take some tips from Millie Bobbie Brown and Finn Wolfhard from Stranger Things on selling a romance. Those two are 13 and 14 and I buy every second of Mike and Eleven's love story. 

This show needs to just let things happen naturally, if they notice that two characters are connecting see where it goes. Don't try to force a romance because comics or because you think we need a love/hate relationship. The Legends being friends and family is what makes this show great. I buy that they are full fledged team, more so than Team Flash or Team Arrow. 

Actually, I rather like the way romantic relationships within the team are depicted on this show.  Ray and Kendra came to like each, had a relationship and it just didn't work out because of her destiny to be chained forever to a dull, shouty bird person.  I like Nate and Amaya and the way he's clearly more into her than she is into him.  He wants true love forever.  She likes him, but she's also got other stuff on her plate.  Maybe they'll work it out and maybe they won't - just like real people in the real world.  I like Oliver and Felicity as well as Barry and Iris, though their shows' take on them as the "superest, duperest, ooperest, pooperest, most truerest loves in the history of forever" gets a bit tiring (especially Barry and Iris with their grand, future news written in Time stone destiny.  At least Felicity and Oliver came together a bit more organically).

[Miss Dee]

I agree. I'm all for romantic relationships being angst-free and happening in the background on this show.

[Sakura12]

None of the romances on this show worked for me. Ray and Kendra were just dull and brought down my enjoyment of the show plus we knew it wasn't going to last, can't enjoy something with an expiration date. With Nate and Amaya, all Nate seems to care about is getting to sleep with her so there is nothing for me to invest in their relationship either. Don't get me started on Barry and Iris I could spend hours talking about awful that relationship is. Olicity is an example of an unplanned romance, the writers didn't plan for it and that's why it took off the way it did. It was natural not forced. 

I'm fine if they keep the romance in the background and don't let their drama ruin the rest of the show.  

[kismet]

In defense of Team Arrow, I think there were earlier incarnations that did fight & live like family. However, as the seasons went on TPTB added more and more people to that team without it being organic for most of the new Team Arrow members. Team Arrow is now suffering from the weight of inorganic relationships, however the writers have chained themselves to a Team mantra & ideology - despite the fact the "TEAM" is not working on multiple levels.

LoT is fortunate because they have had good chemistry from the beginning. Most of the relationships within the team are organic. I believe they are a tight team, almost family. They also started out as a group, so the audience learned to accept them as a group. I do sometimes wonder if the reason Nate has not been embraced as much as the writers hope is because Nate just feels like the kid, just to trying to hard to break into the cool group. He feels like an interloper, so when he makes all the mistakes, it becomes frustrating because the team has never shown a need to have him on the team. Why are you still letting him hang on? Show me Nate being genuinely interested in wanting to be part of a family. I loved the episode where they forgot who they were and Nate (or Nate's mom) made sandwiches. I actually believed that he in that episode was part of a group. I do not see that Nate often on the show. If they intend to keep Nate, I really wish he was more like that vulnerable Nate.

I am curious to see how Zari fits in with the group as the season progresses. I think she showed a lot of promise at group chemistry. Amaya has seemed to blend into the team and family dynamic, the writers did a decent job finding a place for her inside the show and the group narrative.

As for romance, I have no problem with romance on a show if it is organic or in the background. But since its inception, all of the LoT romances have felt like they have been put in there to check off boxes or fill time. Give me 2 LoT characters that have a spark of romantic chemistry and I'll be rooting for them. Shows do not need to have romantic pairings. I get that antagonistic flirting works for some people. It just doesn't work for me. Grown adults who are as career/mission focused as Ava & Sara are, do not bother with juvenile hate flirting and build up to an actual relationship. Perhaps an energetic hook-up session, which could be fun. I also hate the trope of people are mean to you because they like you, I just don't think it teaches healthy relationship skills. Ava has done nothing but degrade and insult Sara, no person should experience that and think OMG what a great person I should date her.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

We all know what they are doing with Sara and Ava, that is very obvious. The way they are doing it is not working for me. The hate/love thing is too far on one side. 

The character of Ava had a bit of screentime now, arguably not much but enough to establish her a bit. And yet, each scene is exactly like the previous ones. Of course the characters aren`t doing or saying the exact same things but we made no progression with her since her introduction. Not one iota. Legends isn`t a 25 episode Season show so this strikes me as wasteful. 

Furthermore, they have given me no moment of likeability from the character on her own. Nothing that has shown her to be more than dour, a stickler for rules and undeservedly full of herself. 

When Legends was announced I was very apprehensive about bringing Mick in as a main character because I found him to be one-dimensional on Flash and I did not see any potential in him. So, yes, I can be wrong. But my point is that while it took a good while to turn Mick around into the character he is now, they still gave me little bits to make me go "hm, maybe there is something there" as far back as the Legends Pilot. 

It`s been a few episodes now and beyond ready for Ava to be something else than annoying. Hit a different note with her already. In terms of shipping she is still lightyears away from viable material for Sara. I want her with a person displaying some warmth. Which is super-ironic considering I really liked her with Snart aka Captain Cold but that character wasn`t devoid of showing some warmth and caring on occassion. And he was fun. 

Of the new additions this Season I`d consider Zari to be a better candidate, even after her one episode.    

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of the new additions this Season I`d consider Zari to be a better candidate, even after her one episode.

It was interesting that the only people Zari didn't mention in her "I got y'all's number" speech were Sara and Ray.  Ray she might not have needed to mention because his goofy team-building optimism was pretty obvious, but nothing about Sara, who is the ship's captain and therefore the person in authority?  And Zari tends to reject authority?  Zari even mentioned Gideon.

As for Ava, aside from the admittedly cute bit where she and Sara took a hydration break from their fight, there really hasn't been any indication that this is a person for whom Sara would develop feelings, positive feelings, anyway.  I'd be more inclined to "'ship" her and Stein before her and Ava.

Edited November 5, 2017 by johntfs

[Oreo2234]

 Given that Gideon even called her a bitch the last time we saw her I don't think we are supposed to like Ava that much right now. 

[johntfs]

My own person "never gonna happen" "'ship" would be a crossover.  I'd ship young Ray and Trixie from Lucifer.  Anyone who denies me can go straight to shell.  Also, you just know that Maze and Sara who would have one Hell of a one night stand.

[Sakura12]

In my headcanon Sara already met Maze and Luci when she was dead for a year. 

[Miss Dee]

Trixie and Young Ray would be adorable.

[Starfish35]

I think the idea of Ray and Zari appeals to me right now because I have a weakness for pairings that have a more optimistic or funny guy with a more hardened and cynical woman, who none the less, despite herself, can't help but like him.  Oddly enough, if you gender-flip that dynamic, it doesn't usually work for me.  I have no idea why.  *shrug* 

You'd think I'd go for a Sara/Ray pairing with that, but I think there's just been too much water under the bridge with those two.  Besides, we don't really need to be closing the love quadrangle there - lol.

[Miss Dee]

Personally, I agree Ray sparks when paired with a more hardened and cynical criminal; I just think there's already a perfectly good option aboard the Waverider....

[johntfs]

13 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

Personally, I agree Ray sparks when paired with a more hardened and cynical criminal; I just think there's already a perfectly good option aboard the Waverider....

Except that there hasn't been any evidence that either Ray nor Mick is gay/bi.  Until now.  We've learned that they're both fans of musicals.  It's not definitive, but still....

To me, Ray's already had two pretty good romances, even if they didn't result in "twu wuv 4-eva."  I think other people on the ship deserve some time in the Love Shack.  Jax, for instance.  Except for crushing a little on Kendra (likely because Sara was too damned scary), he's got no love at all.  Mick at least got to do things (and people) that got him that "impressive amount of STDs."  Sara is basically time Kirk and even Stein has a wife.  Hell even Gideon and Rip likely got up to some shenanigans during his cake exile.

[Miss Dee]

I think Jax is definitely the best candidate for a CW-style romance, and it'd be nice for him to get some love. I was kind of hoping for him and Lily, but I guess that's not an option with her baby daddy in the picture.

As much as I ship Ray and Mick, I can't cop to assuming a love of musicals is proof positive that they're into guys (although if the writers were dropping that as a sly hint to where they intend to take the characters, I'll tip my hat to them).

I think there's room to recode Ray as demisexual - any sex he's had onscreen has been in the context of a serious relationship, and in Episode 2 we have proof that the enticements of nubile acrobats held no interest for him. And as orientation (sexual or romantic) is not an on/off light switch, it's not against the laws of biology or psychology or logic that Ray could develop romantic feelings for a man (whether or not with Mick is a separate argument) and sexual attraction follow suit.

I'm not saying that's what the writers are doing, mind - the anvils are pretty obvious when it comes to Ray and Zari. I'm just pointing out that characters who have had conventional relationships on TV could be developed outside their heteronormative default if care were taken to write it honestly and with due care.

Now, Mick - honestly, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the writers really were hedging their bets there. What actual proof do we have of his orientation on screen? He told Supergirl to call him; he got STDs in Aruba; he seemed interested in attending a brothel in the Old West. None of that precludes him from being interested in men as well as women. He seems to have feelings for Amaya, but the writers didn't actually confirm that those feelings were romantic rather than a special regard for someone who bothered to treat him as human and worth caring about.

The writers have been really careful to separate Mick from the kinds of romantic storylines and characterization that every other character on the Waverider has gotten. Even Leonard got an on-screen kiss with Sara. And it's not like Dominic Purcell was beaten with an ugly stick and can't be imagined in those sorts of plots; c'mon. I can't help but think it's deliberate.

If I had to venture a guess: I would say Mick is aromantic (there's a good joke in there somewhere about Mick using the term "aromatic" instead) and bisexual. Unlike Sara, I could easily see Mick being the sort who's not too picky about his potential partners when he's horny, including the plumbing they come with (whereas Sara is more into the person). Again, romantic orientation being a matter of degrees, Mick could either stay 100% aromantic or end up falling for someone (man or woman) at least once.

Again, shows being rather squeamish in these matters: Mick will probably be given a good ol' run-of-the-mill heteronormative characterization. But if any show would have the balls to go there, it's Legends with their take-all-chances-and-give-no-fucks attitude. And honestly, bisexual characters on television are almost never a Mick Rory type of character. Aside from giving Purcell an acting challenge that's unique to his career, it'd be interesting to see how they'd write that on screen.

TLDR: While smart money should be placed on every character besides Sara being kept strictly in the heteronormative basket, that doesn't mean the writing doesn't or can't lend itself to other interpretations for Ray and Mick - or anybody, really, as long as the writing set it up properly, carefully and honestly.

Thanks for the indulgence and reading my ramblings, everybody. ☺

Edited November 6, 2017 by Miss Dee
Clarified my thoughts

[Sakura12]

I think with this show it's what you see is what you get. Mick and Ray have both been shown to like women. Not saying that can't change, but I honestly think it won't. 

I don't know if they plan on going with Ray/Zari but so far she's the first person I could see with Ray. If they continue their friendship for now, then later move to something else it would be even better. They kept trying to rush Ray into relationships. They should take it slow this time lets get to know them as they get to know each other. They rushed the relationship with Nate and Amaya too. I don't even get what she sees in the frat boy that thinks about nothing but sex.  Especially since they spent the first half of the season showing Amaya and Mick bonding. Nate and Amaya bonded in the episode they had sex where they were talking about sex. Which is why that's all I thought their relationship was about so Nate acting like a dumbass about their break up isn't working for me. I don't see him losing his greatest love, I see him losing a causal relationship. 

I'm hoping they keep them apart and Amaya is meant for someone so much better than him to keep her family line of awesome women going strong. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't see him losing his greatest love, I see him losing a causal relationship. 

I see him losing a semi-casual relationship (they were living together for a while in 2017 Earth) that he wanted and expected to turn into something more.  I think Amaya liked Nate quite a bit and cared about him, but in the end she cares about her future family more.  I could see a situation where Nate and Amaya left together for 1942.  I wouldn't mind having Kendra back if we could somehow arrange for Hawkdouche to get fatally shot by over-eager duck hunters or something.

Edited November 6, 2017 by johntfs

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

I could see a situation where Nate and Amaya left together for 1942. 

I'm expecting it to be honest.  But maybe not.  

[johntfs]

On 11/6/2017 at 11:00 AM, Starfish35 said:

I'm expecting it to be honest.  But maybe not.  

At this point I'm starting to move away from that idea.  I think if/when Amaya returns to 1942, she'll do so alone.  Well, alone except for being secretly pregnant with Mick Rory's child - the child who will grow up to be the mother of Kuasa and Mari.  She'll have to because she knows that Mick would love his daughter and burn down history and the entire damn world to try to protect her and she knows that history has to unfold as it already has.

So, yeah, Amaya and Mick.  Amaya likes Nate and cares about him but I really don't think she fully respects him.  I think one big reason she was him to begin with was because he looked so much like his grandfather.  He was comforting and familiar in situations that were strange an confusing.  Plus whatever else Mick was, he was a violent criminal and she was a hero.  During their time in 2017, Amaya tried to make it work with Nate, but ultimately he wasn't his grandfather in outlook or customs.  Plus, the sight of Mari as Vixen brought her back and showed her the price of continuing her pretense at a life in the modern world.  So she left.

When she came back, Nate clearly wanted to get back together, but she's over him.  She's mostly impatient with his antics and her smiles during the hallucination episode were more indulgent than loving.  She appreciated that he really was trying but knew it wasn't enough.  So, she's been focused on the mission and helping Zari with her totem.  And then came "Welcome to the Jungle" where she has seen Mick Rory for what he truly is.  Mick Rory commits crimes, but isn't really a criminal.  He fights bad guys and saves people but isn't really a superhero.  Instead, Mick Rory is a soldier.  A wounded, scarred soldier.  He is a soldier who has effectively sworn himself into the service of Captain Sara Lance.  Mick is gruff, tough and will resolve conflicts in a good fist or gunfight.  He most certainly won't talk, cry or hug it out with anybody.  And Amaya likes that.  Mick behaves the way that men are supposed to behave in her time - like real men.

Also, through her totem, his anger and savagery calls to hers.  And he cares deeply about her even if he has tacitly decided that he could never be worthy of her.  Aside from perhaps Sara (and Amaya doesn't seem to be lesbian or bisexual), most of the men on the Waverider likely won't cut the mustard.  Stein is married and even if he weren't she's seen him fail miserably as a leader.  Ray is a Boy Scout, emphasis boy.  Amaya certainly noticed how much of eight year old Ray is in adult Ray and she wants a man.  Jax is possible, but Jax is still very young.  As for Nate, Nate is a metrosexual bro-dude.  He's ultimately the opposite of the kind of person she wants to commit herself to.  Rory is a soldier like she was in WWII.  He respects her and his inner anger is congruent with her totem-induced savagery.  The most interesting part of this will be seeing how/when she "courts" Mick.

Edited November 23, 2017 by johntfs

[Miss Dee]

@johntfs, isn't it fun when episodes like this get your shipping imagination going?

Ray/Mick is still my favourite ship to speculate about - not because it has any chance of happening, but because it's fun for me to imagine how that dynamic could come about and work. But you make a great argument for Amaya/Mick, and as a ship with a better chance to occur I would certainly enjoy it, I think.

[Miss Dee]

So now that Leonard (sorry, Leo) is sticking around Earth-1 for a while: he better fucking be here for Mick's sake, or I'm gonna riot. No sticking him on The Flash, Arrowverse!

I don't imagine there was time with the crossover, but I feel a little cheated that we didn't get to see Leo's reaction to Mick being alive on Earth 1.

I'm fervently hoping there were things he needed to say to his Mick that he never got the chance to say, and he's here to take the only shot he has. Which, coincidentally, will be the same things Mick needed to hear from his Leonard that Len never got the chance to say.

Hopefully this will be the chance for both Mick and Leo to part ways in a manner cathartic to them both (as well as the audience). Then they can both go back to their respective homes. Where they both have a Ray waiting to take care of them.

[tofutan]

So, if Leo is bi, does that mean that Len was too? If yes, did Mick know? If Len was, does that increase the chances that Mick might be? 

[Starfish35]

I'm 99% sure Leo's here for Mick.  I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm sure we'll see him on the Waverider.  

I'm just sitting here wondering why the trailers included all those scenes of Leo flirting with Sara if he was already in a relationship with (The) Ray.  It just seems a little like unnecessary teasing of the Captain Canary shippers.

[Sakura12]

Leo seems to love everyone, he was basically flirting with all the characters. I loved it. 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, tofutan said:

So, if Leo is bi, does that mean that Len was too? If yes, did Mick know? If Len was, does that increase the chances that Mick might be? 

I'll answer your questions in the order you asked them.

Probably.  We know that Nazi Quentin's daughter was bi because he was proud that he murdered her for that.  If she was bi, Len probably was as well.

Probably.  They were partners in crime for years.  It's hard to imagine Len keeping that part of himself secret from Mick, or, as confident as he was, from anyone, really.

Probably not.  Aside from having an appreciation for musicals and calling Nate "pretty" Mick seems fairly heterosexual, but also secure enough in himself not to be bothered by other people's sexual preferences.

[quarks]

Maybe Leo is on the ship so that Jax can finally have a romance!

Kidding, mostly. But seriously, that poor kid desperately needs something good/romantic in his life. Send him a romance, writers! Any romance!

[legaleagle53]

11 hours ago, tofutan said:

So, if Leo is bi, does that mean that Len was too? If yes, did Mick know? If Len was, does that increase the chances that Mick might be? 

Who said Leo was bi?  Why couldn't he simply be 100% gay?  We do exist, after all.

Edited November 30, 2017 by legaleagle53

[johntfs]

4 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Who said Leo was bi?  Why couldn't he simply be 100% gay?  We do exist, after all.

That's certainly true.  Figure most people drew the bi conclusion (I know I did) from his (playful) flirting with Sara.

[Miss Dee]

Miller is on record as saying he was playing Snart as pansexual, as long as he was allowed anyway. I think that's why some people assume he might not only be into men.

[tofutan]

Yes, both of these reasons, flirting with Sara (in this version and of course "our Len"), and Miller's quotes about wanting Snart to be pansexual. 

[kismet]

The little I saw of Leo during the LoT episode, I'm glad he is sticking around. I think it's a testament to who Snart is in all Earths that he sees his friend is suffering and wants to help him in whatever way possible.

Also it will be nice for WM to give a proper goodbye to the Legends. The crossover was not the time or the place for that.

[Sakura12]

5 hours ago, kismet said:

The little I saw of Leo during the LoT episode, I'm glad he is sticking around. I think it's a testament to who Snart is in all Earths that he sees his friend is suffering and wants to help him in whatever way possible.

Also it will be nice for WM to give a proper goodbye to the Legends. The crossover was not the time or the place for that.

Hopefully someone puts the Leo parts of the Flash episode up on Youtube. He had some really great scenes and lines that you should watch. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

 I think if/when Amaya returns to 1942, she'll do so alone.  Well, alone except for being secretly pregnant with Mick Rory's child - the child who will grow up to be the mother of Kuasa and Mari. 

wut wtf?

Edited November 30, 2017 by HeroLeague

[jhlipton]

On 11/5/2017 at 7:18 PM, Miss Dee said:

As much as I ship Ray and Mick, I can't cop to assuming a love of musicals is proof positive that they're into guys (although if the writers were dropping that as a sly hint to where they intend to take the characters, I'll tip my hat to them).

Ugh!  I hate the "if you love musicals, you must be gay" trope.  I like a lot of musicals (not all of them, though) and I'm about 90% straight.

6 hours ago, kismet said:

Also it will be nice for WM to give a proper goodbye to the Legends. The crossover was not the time or the place for that.

He could have interrupted the wedding(s) to say goodbye!  #SorryNotSorry

On 11/5/2017 at 4:54 PM, Starfish35 said:

I have a weakness for pairings that have a more optimistic or funny guy with a more hardened and cynical woman, who none the less, despite herself, can't help but like him.  Oddly enough, if you gender-flip that dynamic, it doesn't usually work for me.  I have no idea why.

Too much "Been there, done that"?

On 11/22/2017 at 9:10 PM, johntfs said:

At this point I'm starting to move away from that idea.  I think if/when Amaya returns to 1942, she'll do so alone.  Well, alone except for being secretly pregnant with Mick Rory's child - the child who will grow up to be the mother of Kuasa and Mari. 

I started reading this and got as far as the quoted part, and thought "Gah -- what a horrid idea!"  But I kept reading and you make a good case for the pairing.  Well done to take a "ship" I didn't like originally and make me think "Yeah, that could work."

=========================

I've noticed a pattern now -- both of the Black women have come with "Countdown Clocks" that make long-term pairing problematic.  Kendra with her "soulmate" HawkTwit, and Amaya with her "return to 1942 and sacrifice herself for her village.  I'm hoping against hope that they find a loop-hole that keeps Amaya around, but I'm resigned to losing her.  On the other hand, the gorgeous and talented Ebonee Noel (who played a meek sister on Still Star-Crossed and a badass Pirate Queen on Wrecked)  is available...

[johntfs]

28 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

On the other hand, the gorgeous and talented Ebonee Noel (who played a meek sister on Still Star-Crossed and a badass Pirate Queen on Wrecked)  is available...

I don't really know her, but Jacob's Ladder is in post-production, so figure that Nicole Beharie is also available.  If they're bringing in the Bob Uecker from Sleepy Hollow (Katia Winter) for next week's show, they show absolutely bring in Sleepy Hollow's Babe Ruth.

[Miss Dee]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Ugh!  I hate the "if you love musicals, you must be gay" trope.  I like a lot of musicals (not all of them, though) and I'm about 90% straight.

I started reading this and got as far as the quoted part, and thought "Gah -- what a horrid idea!"  But I kept reading and you make a good case for the pairing.  Well done to take a "ship" I didn't like originally and make me think "Yeah, that could work."

LOL If the show wrote an Atomwave storyline, they could make them both 90% straight. They'd just fall into each others' 10% of the men they could be attracted to.

That's how I've seen it happen with people in real life for whom it's possible to be attracted to a small number of the same sex, but a large number of the opposite one. Sometimes they're middle-aged before meeting the first person of the same sex for whom they feel attraction; they just assumed they were 100% straight up to then.

That said, I'm no rabid shipper and I thought @johntfs made a good argument for Mick/Amaya too.

Honest to God, I'll pretty much swallow any ship as long as a) the writers make a good argument for it, and b) don't accidentally make a better argument for a different one.

[johntfs]

5 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

LOL If the show wrote an Atomwave storyline, they could make them both 90% straight. They'd just fall into each others' 10% of the men they could be attracted to.

To be fair, if they're making a case for any same-sex attraction involving Mick, it's with him and Nate, since he refers to Nate as "pretty."  Really, though, I don't think they are.  Honestly, Mick seems to consider a romantic relationship with anyone in the Waverider crew to be "out of bounds."  And since this is a man who had to be told not to walk around naked when he was a guest in another person's home, that's saying something.  The closest thing to an exception for him is probably Amaya and I think any movement on that front would have to come from here end.

[kismet]

15 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Hopefully someone puts the Leo parts of the Flash episode up on Youtube. He had some really great scenes and lines that you should watch. 

Thanks for the heads up! I will look out for them. I was going to ask you guys if there were any good LoT moments in the other hours, but I've yet to make it back to the episode thread. It looks full with non-regulars. And frankly, I am still very angry at the crossover.  So time will tell how I reconcile this crossover.

[kismet]

14 hours ago, jhlipton said:

He could have interrupted the wedding(s) to say goodbye!  #SorryNotSorry

Trust me anyone could have interrupted those weddings, what a waste of our time (and I say that as someone who likes both couples). It was just the crappiest way to end a crossover.

People love Snart. I want them to have a proper good bye since WM is mostly likely done forever with the series/universe. I also think Mick deserves some closure.

On another note sort of unrelated to your post, I don't see anything romantic between Mick & Leo.

Quote

I started reading this and got as far as the quoted part, and thought "Gah -- what a horrid idea!"  But I kept reading and you make a good case for the pairing.  Well done to take a "ship" I didn't like originally and make me think "Yeah, that could work."

=========================

I've noticed a pattern now -- both of the Black women have come with "Countdown Clocks" that make long-term pairing problematic.  Kendra with her "soulmate" HawkTwit, and Amaya with her "return to 1942 and sacrifice herself for her village.  I'm hoping against hope that they find a loop-hole that keeps Amaya around, but I'm resigned to losing her.  On the other hand, the gorgeous and talented Ebonee Noel (who played a meek sister on Still Star-Crossed and a badass Pirate Queen on Wrecked)  is available...

I think they are also showing Mari spending sometime with Ray, I could see her pregnant with his child just as easily. Although personally I vote for no Legends as paternity donations.

I'm with you hoping that they find some loophole to keep her on the ship. I really like her.

[Proteus]

On November 29, 2017 at 8:44 PM, johntfs said:

That's certainly true.  Figure most people drew the bi conclusion (I know I did) from his (playful) flirting with Sara.

I know I did. Leo was eying Sara from the moment he met her.

I hope Grant Gustin is right in seeing he doesn't buy that WM is really done soon. Leo is is already becoming a character I love.

[jhlipton]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:51 AM, Miss Dee said:

LOL If the show wrote an Atomwave storyline, they could make them both 90% straight. They'd just fall into each others' 10% of the men they could@johntfs be attracted to.

 

I've seen people say "I'd go gay for [so-and-so]" so it could be like that.  Or it could be that they love each other despite the plumbing.  Trans people who are in a relationship before or during their transition deal with this already, so it's not that weird.

[johntfs]

On the topic of a non-sexual relationship, I continue to love the way that Mick Rory clearly respects Sara in her leadership role in a way he never respected Rip.  If Arrow would ever remember that Sara Lance is still Quentin Lance's daughter, I'd love to hear him voice a version of those sentiments to Quentin.

Edited December 10, 2017 by johntfs

[Miss Dee]

Yes, Mick's unabashed respect for Sara is endearing. He's an anarchist but he *will* obey her. The only time he threatened not to was back in Camelot when the ship was leaving Ray behind and he declared he was going too. Even then he was upfront about it.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Miss Dee

[Sakura12]

I was hoping we'd get some reaction from Team Flash in the Crossover to Mick calling Sara boss. But she wasn't part of a Ship so she wasn't that important. We did get Mick calling her boss but that was in front of Alex. 

[legaleagle53]

14 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Yes, Mick's unabashed respect for Sara is endearing. He's an anarchist but he *will* obey her. The only time he threatened not to was back in Camelot when the ship was leaving Ray behind and he declared he was going too. Even then he was upfront about it.

True.  And the only other time he rebelled was when he thought that the team (including Sara) had sold HIM out, which is why he threw in his lot with the Legion of Doom and helped them get the Spear of Destiny, something which he regretted almost as soon as he'd done it.

[tennisgurl]

You know, I would be fine if they just stayed friends and teammates, but if Zari and Ray ever became a thing...I could get into that. They're both really good people, but they go about it in different ways (Zari is basically Chaotic Good, while Ray is Neutral Good) that I think could balance each other out. Their personalities are different enough that it wouldn't be like they were dated their clone, but they have enough in common, that its not totally out of nowhere. Plus, their banter is cute, and they seem to just like hanging out, even when Ray is being a dork Zari is being snarky. 

Plus, Zari has had a tough time, and Ray has had truly awful luck in love, they deserve some happy times.

[Proteus]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, I would be fine if they just stayed friends and teammates, but if Zari and Ray ever became a thing...I could get into that. They're both really good people, but they go about it in different ways (Zari is basically Chaotic Good, while Ray is Neutral Good) that I think could balance each other out. Their personalities are different enough that it wouldn't be like they were dated their clone, but they have enough in common, that its not totally out of nowhere. Plus, their banter is cute, and they seem to just like hanging out, even when Ray is being a dork Zari is being snarky. 

Plus, Zari has had a tough time, and Ray has had truly awful luck in love, they deserve some happy times.

Yeah, I hated Ray/Felicity. But Ray/Zari could work.

[Sakura12]

I can get behind Ray and Zari, since it started with building a friendship and one of them wasn't a complete asshole to the other. 

Ava's judgmental attitude towards the Legends when we first met her, completely turned me off her characters. She can think the Legends are terrible time travelers, they are but she doesn't know them and immediately insulted their character. Sara doesn't judge anyone and I don't see why she'd want to be with someone that does. Of course they solved that by just giving Ava a personality transplant and now want me to want her and Sara to be together.

Most of their pairings work better when they are not writing for them. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sakura12

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I can get behind Ray and Zari, since it started with building a friendship and one of them wasn't a complete asshole to other. 

Ava's judgmental attitude towards the Legends when we first met her, completely turned me off her characters. She can think the Legends are terrible time travelers, they are but she doesn't know them and immediately insulted their character. Sara doesn't judge anyone and I don't see why she'd want to be with someone that does. Of course they solved that by just giving Ava a personality transplant and now want me to want her and Sara to be together.

Most of their pairings work better when they are not writing for them. 

So true. If they were really planning Ava/Sara from the start, it might have helped to not have them at odds for the first 11 episodes of the season, and then randomly gave Ava a personality transplant to where they were suddenly flirting with each other. Also much like Ray and Kendra back in season 1. They wrote them together for a purpose, but did a horrible job at actually doing it and then it became a moot point anyway. I can't see Ava/Sara lasting past this current season. It just doesn't work long term. 

Ray/Zari is a pairing I'd actually want to see. I find Zari to be a fascinating character, and I think what works with her and Ray is that they're opposites from each other, but not overly so. With Ray and Felicity, besides the writing being quite bad for both characters, they were way too similar in that I'd watch them on screen and think "they could have just given all of these lines to one of the characters". With Ray/Zari, it works better because Zari's more cynical or realistic, while Ray is ever the optimist, but both are highly intelligent in different ways (Ray is more mechanical while Zari is more technological). They also treat each other quite well and the actors have a nice chemistry together. 

[Sakura12]

Despite complaining about it, I think Zari actually likes Ray's optimism. When he stops being optimistic is when she tells him he should be. I think they would be good for each other. What is their ship name, I've seen Zaray. 

I don't hate Ava so I'll deal with her and Sara's "romance" for now. It's just not something I can ship.