General Discussion: You Exist Here

[Joe]

What requirements are there to run for congress? Because I heard that he was born Ketha Province, Qo'noS. Can he prove his Earth citizenship?

Joking aside, there's certainly been worse people in politics. I'd vote for him if I could.

[John Potts]

Presumably he won't have to kill the current incumbent to claim the seat (this time).

[The Crazed Spruce]

Don't know if anyone else here follows SF Debris' weekly Star Trek recaps, but all summer long, he's gonna do an episode-by-episode review of the final DS9 storyarc, and he posted the first video today.

[friendperidot]

I need some help. I don't watch tv, I have it on, I listen, glance at the screen sometimes. I need shows that can be watched that way rather than ones you have to watch intently because they are deliberately vague and change things at the last minute. So, this show suits that need most of the time. Except I can't keep Ducat and Garek straight in my head. They are both Cardassians (as opposed to Kardashians, which might explain a lot). One of them was a high official on Cardassia and has the illegitimate daughter who falls in love with the other one. He is also obsessed with Kira and her mother. The other one is the tailor on Deep Space Nine and is barred from entering Cardassia ever again because he was a weasel/spy, still is rather a weasel/spy wanna be. See, I do pay some attention to the plots. Now, which one is which?

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, friendperidot said:

I need some help. I don't watch tv, I have it on, I listen, glance at the screen sometimes. I need shows that can be watched that way rather than ones you have to watch intently because they are deliberately vague and change things at the last minute. So, this show suits that need most of the time. Except I can't keep Ducat and Garek straight in my head. They are both Cardassians (as opposed to Kardashians, which might explain a lot). One of them was a high official on Cardassia and has the illegitimate daughter who falls in love with the other one. He is also obsessed with Kira and her mother. The other one is the tailor on Deep Space Nine and is barred from entering Cardassia ever again because he was a weasel/spy, still is rather a weasel/spy wanna be. See, I do pay some attention to the plots. Now, which one is which?

Garak is the tailor.  Dukat is the one with the illegitimate daughter and the Kira obsession.  And the third major Cardassian player is Damar, who I believe served as Dukat's lieutenant before he led the Cardassian rebellion against the Dominion.

[Joe]

First is Dukat, second is Garak.

[friendperidot]

thank you both, I may have to keep referring to here so I can keep them straight. And I had forgotten about Damar, but I remember that name, just didn't have his plot line and character in mind. I'm on about the second round of seeing this series on H&I.

[SVNBob]

Since you listen more than watch:

Dukat has the deepest voice, and Garak's is higher in comparison.  Damar falls in between.

 

And ain't that a whole bunch of inadvertent symbolism...

[friendperidot]

thanks, I'll try to pay more attention to their voices. I recognize a lot of actors from shows, not just here but everywhere because of their voices. And yes, that is a lot of symbolism, but is it inadvertent?

[friendperidot]

6 weeks since my last post, so I guess I'm the only one watching this on H&I. It's getting near the finale again, I'd have to look to see exactly where they are but tonight's episode is Kai Winn centric. Every time she's on an episode, I just want to slap her condescending self! I know her lack of real spirituality and belief has a lot to do with the finale, I have seen it once, but she just irritates the snot out of me!

[Maverick]

 Kai Winn was a true believer.  But she's also incredibly egocentric.  When the Prophets refused to speak to her, but would speak to someone like Kira or worse an outside like Sisko she took it as meaning there was something wrong with the Prophets.   After all, she was devout, she was the Kai.  She was entitled to have the Prophets speak to her.  And when they didn't, it only took a whisper from Dukat to make her turn on them.   She never once considered her actions could be why the Prophets never spoke to her.  

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Kai Winn was a true believer.  But she's also incredibly egocentric.  When the Prophets refused to speak to her, but would speak to someone like Kira or worse an outside like Sisko she took it as meaning there was something wrong with the Prophets.   After all, she was devout, she was the Kai.  She was entitled to have the Prophets speak to her.  And when they didn't, it only took a whisper from Dukat to make her turn on them.   She never once considered her actions could be why the Prophets never spoke to her.  

A true believer, though, would never allow herself to question the Prophets like that or blame them for her own problems.  Kai Winn, I think is like a Pope who happens to be a closet agnostic.  Sure, she could put on an outward show of piety when it suited her, but inwardly, she was apostate to the core and always had been.  As you said, she never once considered the idea that it wasn't the Prophets who had abandoned her -- it was she who had abandoned the Prophets.  And once she did that, she became an easy target for the Pah-Wraiths.

[friendperidot]

Maverick and Legaleagle, both of you make points I agree with, I do think she was egocentric and was offended when things didn't come easily to her and the Prophets did not speak to her. And I think because of that she was unsure and questioned her faith. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with questioning your beliefs and faith, I've always questioned and hope I'm choosing the right path. This is just the second time I've seen these episodes and am paying a little better attention this time. I didn't catch it the first time that Dukat had changed his appearance so drastically to look like Bjoran. And I had missed that scene between Dukat and Win where she's convinced he's the one sent to show her the way. Interesting and it does make the finale a little more understandable. I think that may be tonight's show.

[Joe]

Auditioners' names revealed! Some that stood out at me. Peter Capaldi and Anthony Head tried out for Sisko! There are pics of Capaldi, he looks a bit young for the job. And Tony Head, that would be kind of Picard mark 2. And Sian Phillips from I Claudius and a bunch of other things as Kai Opaka. That one I really can't see. Winn, yeah. But not Opaka. Though like many actors to play such wonderful villains, she's probably really nice in real life.

[legaleagle53]

On 9/8/2017 at 2:16 AM, Joe said:

Auditioners' names revealed! Some that stood out at me. Peter Capaldi and Anthony Head tried out for Sisko! There are pics of Capaldi, he looks a bit young for the job. And Tony Head, that would be kind of Picard mark 2. And Sian Phillips from I Claudius and a bunch of other things as Kai Opaka. That one I really can't see. Winn, yeah. But not Opaka. Though like many actors to play such wonderful villains, she's probably really nice in real life.

That's probably true, and it's true about a lot of actors who specialize in playing villains.  Louise Fletcher won an Oscar for playing a Kai Winn-type villain in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and she definitely made a chilling Kai Winn on DS9, but by all accounts, she's a sweetheart in real life.

[Ailianna]

She also played the mother of a notorious serial killer in Profiler, and in that situation was basically aware of her son's issues and was protecting him.  But again, all reports are that people love her and love working with her.

[readster]

You know, I was looking at the Jem'hadar episode for the season 2 finale and interesting we never see the Vorta use their TK powers really again through out the series. Another thing was well the hell did the one in the episode teleport to? They didn't having cloaking tech and you wanted us to believe they had transporter tech that got them that far away from DS9? I know it was early on with the Dominion, but a little continuity with their tech would have gone a long way. Also, I notice with the Changelings, they went on how to replace the right people to play sides against side, but the Changelings knew crap about a species they infiltrated. I mean, they didn't get the Klingon honor system despite the Jem'hadar having their own with the Martok Changeling. You add in the Dr. Bashire one could play the part, but oops know how his own species worked, or that Kira would go to warp in a star system to stop them from destroying their sun, nope never.  

[VCRTracking]

On 9/18/2017 at 6:16 PM, readster said:

Also, I notice with the Changelings, they went on how to replace the right people to play sides against side, but the Changelings knew crap about a species they infiltrated. I mean, they didn't get the Klingon honor system despite the Jem'hadar having their own with the Martok Changeling. You add in the Dr. Bashire one could play the part, but oops know how his own species worked, or that Kira would go to warp in a star system to stop them from destroying their sun, nope never.  

I'm guessing that's why they were never able to successfully infiltrate a species and conquer from within and had to resort to creating a race of soldiers and a race of administrators.

Kukalaka in "In the Cards" is still one of my top favorite TV continuity callbacks.

ETA: RIP Bernie Casey. I still remember gasping when your character destroyed his uniform with a phaser after declaring his allegiance to the Marquis.

Edited September 21, 2017 by VCRTracking

[friendperidot]

H&I is kind of my go to channel since I don't have cable. Just watched a couple of episodes of Wiseguy, Louise Fletcher was on. I knew her voice immediately because of Star Trek, but it took me a second for me to recognize her. She really is a good actress even though I hate her character on this show. Her character on Wiseguy isn't so smarmy and condescending.

[readster]

A nick pick for me was when both Jonathan Frankes and Michael Dorn were on DS9. It was suppose to be Thomas Riker, but he was wearing his old red uniform. I do not get that at all since Generations was long released, and we saw Riker in the current Starfleet uniform. Yet everyone acted like: "Oh, wearing the old uniform, that doesn't raise a red flag." Where with Worf, Rick Bermann said they put Worf in his old costume because they had already tailored the new costume for Michael Dorn and didn't want to spend money making two for him. Yet everyone was to be: "Oh Worf is just depressed over the destruction of the Enterprise, he's in his old yellow uniform."

[starri]

They had a mix of the TNG and DS9 uniforms in Generations.  And the DS9 uniforms only happened because they had attempted to make all-new ones that were intended to be carried forward onto Voyager.  Stills of them don't look too bad, but there was a deleted scene of Levar Burton wearing one floating around the internet for a while, and it looked godawful on camera.

As a result, they had to scramble to reuse the DS9 versions.  And they didn't make any new ones except for Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner.  If you look closely, Frakes is wearing Avery Brooks', and Dorn Burton is wearing Colm Meaney's.

Edited November 5, 2017 by starri

[Maverick]

 When Sisko returns to Earth to work at Starfleet Command in "Homefront/Paradise Lost", he wore the TNG-style uniform.   Since that was in Season 4, after Worf joined the show, he and Thomas Riker wearing the old uniforms aren't really an inconsistency.   

[readster]

On 11/5/2017 at 10:25 AM, Maverick said:

 When Sisko returns to Earth to work at Starfleet Command in "Homefront/Paradise Lost", he wore the TNG-style uniform.   Since that was in Season 4, after Worf joined the show, he and Thomas Riker wearing the old uniforms aren't really an inconsistency.   

Which really made little sense because by the time they did the switch to the First Contact uniforms, everyone had them. Voyager perfectly said it because they were out in the Delta Quadrant and had limited replication and resources. Hence, keeping them in the DS9 uniforms was easy. 

[starri]

16 minutes ago, readster said:

Voyager perfectly said it because they were out in the Delta Quadrant and had limited replication and resources

Well, when the plot called for it, anyway.

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, readster said:

Which really made little sense because by the time they did the switch to the First Contact uniforms, everyone had them. Voyager perfectly said it because they were out in the Delta Quadrant and had limited replication and resources. Hence, keeping them in the DS9 uniforms was easy. 

 "Homefront/Paradise Lost" was in the fourth season.  The switch to the First Contact uniforms happened midway through season 5 of DS9.   The implication is, the DS9-style uniforms never fully replaced the TNG ones; rather they were both in use until the First Contact version came along.  

[readster]

39 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 "Homefront/Paradise Lost" was in the fourth season.  The switch to the First Contact uniforms happened midway through season 5 of DS9.   The implication is, the DS9-style uniforms never fully replaced the TNG ones; rather they were both in use until the First Contact version came along.  

Basically: "We want to save money, pull out the TNG uniforms since we are on Earth and we can get away with it." Then since it was well known there would be new uniforms for the 1996 release of First Contact. They would just go from there and work it into the budgets. Because it was known that the old uniforms from DS9 were reused for Voyager. 

[HunterHunted]

Great piece on the 25th anniversary of DS9. No Avery or Alexander in the photoshoot, but an Alexander quote in the piece.

http://variety.com/2018/tv/features/star-trek-ds9-25th-anniversary-interview-1202648047/amp/

They also talk about streaming services helping with the legacy of the show. It's allowed people to rediscover the show. I do a rewatch about once a year.

[VCRTracking]

On 11/6/2017 at 6:35 PM, readster said:

On 11/6/2017 at 5:55 PM, Maverick said:

"Homefront/Paradise Lost" was in the fourth season.  The switch to the First Contact uniforms happened midway through season 5 of DS9.   The implication is, the DS9-style uniforms never fully replaced the TNG ones; rather they were both in use until the First Contact version came along.  

Basically: "We want to save money, pull out the TNG uniforms since we are on Earth and we can get away with it." Then since it was well known there would be new uniforms for the 1996 release of First Contact. They would just go from there and work it into the budgets. Because it was known that the old uniforms from DS9 were reused for Voyager. 

Also I always thought the grey top uniforms from First Contact were appropriate as the show was going full on into the Dominion war that season and the rest of the series.

[HunterHunted]

Vulture ranks the 15 best DS9 episodes in honor of the 25th anniversary.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/01/star-trek-deep-space-nine-best-episodes-ranked.html

[readster]

Pretty good list, but Second Skin I felt was done better on TNG with Troi. Though the stories are different in plot, I felt the plot was better in TNG. However, I agree on most of the others, especially Pale Moonlight. 

[legaleagle53]

I like that "Past Tense," Parts 1 and 2, made the top 15.  Now that we're in 2018 and thus only six years away from the dystopia of 2024 shown in this two-parter, I'm more amazed than ever (and more than just a little disturbed) at how prescient it was when it first aired 22 years ago.  So many of the events and attitudes depicted in these two episodes ring true even now that it's frightening.

Edited January 6, 2018 by legaleagle53

[readster]

11 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I like that "Past Tense," Parts 1 and 2, made the top 15.  Now that we're in 2018 and thus only six years away from the dystopia of 2024 shown in this two-parter, I'm more amazed than ever (and more than just a little disturbed) at how prescient it was when it first aired 22 years ago.  So many of the events and attitudes depicted in these two episodes ring true even now that it's frightening.

I remember both Ira and Michael Piller talking about the episode almost 4 months after it aired when they were scouting filming locations. The mayor at the time was talking about doing just what the episode was about. They said it was very eerie to them and thought for a moment: "I hope we never go this far for real." Yeah, scary how things have moved that way just from short sighted views. It's a favorite of mine too, and I did enjoy the lighter moments in the episode like when Miles and Kira end up in the 60s with the hippies and then get beamed back out and the hippies go: "Far out!" 

[starri]

List is great because it acknowledges something that's often overlooked:  the most awesome thing about Sisko is that he's such a great father.

[SVNBob]

6 hours ago, starri said:

 the most awesome thing about Sisko is that he's such a great father.

...except for the series finale.

[readster]

6 hours ago, SVNBob said:

...except for the series finale.

Which they rewrote so it didn't look like a black man abandoning his pregnant wife. 

[Raja]

On 11/6/2017 at 5:55 PM, Maverick said:

 "Homefront/Paradise Lost" was in the fourth season.  The switch to the First Contact uniforms happened midway through season 5 of DS9.   The implication is, the DS9-style uniforms never fully replaced the TNG ones; rather they were both in use until the First Contact version came along.  

Having lived through a real life uniform change it takes time when you will see the new and old uniforms in usage and there is a drop dead date for the last day of the old uniform.

[readster]

29 minutes ago, Raja said:

Having lived through a real life uniform change it takes time when you will see the new and old uniforms in usage and there is a drop dead date for the last day of the old uniform.

Right and why they were doing that in Generations with the transition and the excuse since they were on a certain budget and couldn't put everyone in the new DS9 uniforms and why they borrowed ones from the show for the movie. Jonathan Frankes was actually wearing Avery Brooks due to their height similarities. Patrick Stewart and LeVar Burton were originals due to their height. I'm not sure what extra was used for Brent Spiner in Generations. Also, when asked why Voyager never made the switch and it was simply explained: "They are out in the middle of the Delta Quadrant, limited to contact with Starfleet and they have limit replicator use. Hence, why would they do a switch?" Considering the turn that DS9 made with the Dominion the new uniforms fit pretty well, I did like the the Late 24th century outfits that were first introduced in All Good Things. It was kind of a call back to the original series of various colors for dress and were still flexible. I know Garret Wang referred to them as like the original movie series uniforms, but you could wrap and move in them more easily. Colm Meany said he enjoyed the first 4 seasons and later the post First Contact Uniforms as you could roll them up and stretch in them without feeling like you were going to tear them. 

[HunterHunted]

On 8/28/2017 at 10:04 PM, Maverick said:

 Kai Winn was a true believer.  But she's also incredibly egocentric.  When the Prophets refused to speak to her, but would speak to someone like Kira or worse an outside like Sisko she took it as meaning there was something wrong with the Prophets.   After all, she was devout, she was the Kai.  She was entitled to have the Prophets speak to her.  And when they didn't, it only took a whisper from Dukat to make her turn on them.   She never once considered her actions could be why the Prophets never spoke to her.  

I just watched Reckoning, which is where I think Kai Winn does her full on heel turn. I believe she was a believer for a long time, but her faith was fairly secure during the 50 year Cardassian occupation because everyone's lives sucked and people weren't having visions from the Prophets left and right then. I think Reckoning is when she lost her faith completely. Not only did she have to suffer the indignity of an outsider being the Emissary, but Sisko has an ancient tablet inscribed just for him under the city he found. Sisko then takes the tablet off planet, smashes it and he is told by a Prophet in full hearing of Winn that he did exactly what he was supposed to do. When the reckoning battle occurs, the Prophet chooses Kira, not Winn, as its vessel. Finally, the Prophet in Kira's body never once acknowledges Winn. That episode was religious indignity after indignity just shoved in her face. I can see how she basically abandoned her faith after that.  

[readster]

On 4/4/2018 at 1:43 PM, HunterHunted said:

I just watched Reckoning, which is where I think Kai Winn does her full on heel turn. I believe she was a believer for a long time, but her faith was fairly secure during the 50 year Cardassian occupation because everyone's lives sucked and people weren't having visions from the Prophets left and right then. I think Reckoning is when she lost her faith completely. Not only did she have to suffer the indignity of an outsider being the Emissary, but Sisko has an ancient tablet inscribed just for him under the city he found. Sisko then takes the tablet off planet, smashes it and he is told by a Prophet in full hearing of Winn that he did exactly what he was supposed to do. When the reckoning battle occurs, the Prophet chooses Kira, not Winn, as its vessel. Finally, the Prophet in Kira's body never once acknowledges Winn. That episode was religious indignity after indignity just shoved in her face. I can see how she basically abandoned her faith after that.  

Completely agree. I do say that was where Winn really turned her back on The Prophets. She was the Kai, she suffered and did so much to be that Kai and yet what happened? The Prophets didn't even give her the time of day and outside her vizier, no one trusted her. But as we know, people never see their own faults on why they are treated or viewed that way. They just are: "I'm right and you are wrong." 

[John Potts]

I think Kai Winn could have been redeemed had she taken Kira's advice in Strange Bedfellows (7.19), when she realises she'd been sleeping with Gul Dukat. She did that whole, "I'll do anything to repent!" and I think she meant it, but like many a politician (and others) who are asked to actually make a true sacrifice, it was a case of "Well, when I said anything, I didn't mean that!" (And cue Meat Loaf - but with "the Prophets" instead of "love"!)

[VCRTracking]

[VCRTracking]

[rmontro]

I just finished watching the entire DS9 series for the first time, on Netflix.  It took me about nine months, loosely shooting for one episode per day or one season a month, except I took a long break in the middle there somewhere.  I had seen the complete runs of all the other Star Trek series (except Discovery), but had only watched about three seasons of DS9 before tiring of it (and then watching only intermittently).  It just never grabbed me, partly because I didn't like the idea of them being confined to one spot (the space station), whereas the other series were able to explore around in ships.

I was aware that some viewers actually listed DS9 as their favorite Trek series, which kind of surprised me.  But I really became interested in finishing the series after hearing Michael Dorn talk about his best work being on DS9.  I've heard many fans say not to bother with the first three seasons, and just watch from the fourth season on, when the war with the Dominion plot begins.  I wanted to   I wanted to start from the beginning, however.

I thought there were a lot of good episodes in the first three seasons, but I can't deny that the Dominion war provides a better backdrop for the series.  I began to appreciate the appeal of the space station, where different people would come to them instead of having to fly off in a ship to visit different worlds.  And besides, eventually they brought in the Defiant, although it was mainly a war ship.  I had originally viewed the addition of Worf as a ratings ploy, but he did make a good addition.  Although I thought some of his best episodes on TNG were about his being a father to Alexander, and on DS9 he was mostly estranged from his son.  In fact, I think there was only one episode that featured Alexander.

I did find a new appreciation for DS9 after watching, and I would now easily place it in third place among my favorite Trek series:  TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, in that order (curiously, that's the order in which they came out).

[John Potts]

On ‎23‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 11:54 PM, rmontro said:

I did find a new appreciation for DS9 after watching, and I would now easily place it in third place among my favorite Trek series:  TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, in that order (curiously, that's the order in which they came out).

OK, I've been following your rewatch of DS9 and now I'm wondering - how old are you? Most people I've heard who prefer the original series rate it top because it was the first one they saw. That said, I was born in 72 and despite having seen every episode of TOS and all the movies by the time TNG launched, would definitely prefer TNG to TOS (and DS9 over either). Obviously you don't have to answer, but I was curious!

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, John Potts said:

OK, I've been following your rewatch of DS9 and now I'm wondering - how old are you? Most people I've heard who prefer the original series rate it top because it was the first one they saw. That said, I was born in 72 and despite having seen every episode of TOS and all the movies by the time TNG launched, would definitely prefer TNG to TOS (and DS9 over either). 

Hey, I appreciate your interest in my little journey.  It wasn't really a RE-watch though, because I had probably seen less than half of the episodes before.  Your post also reveals that you are one of these people who like DS9 over all, interesting.

Your instincts are correct,  I was born in 60, so I even remember watching TOS as a kid when it originally aired.  I will admit there is a nostalgic component to my appreciation for TOS.  But there is something to be said for the first time that something original is conceived.  All the pieces are there.  And the success of the reboot movies with the original characters also demonstrates the timelessness of the premise.  But I could understand how younger people might find the sets and '60s production values to be a little dated.

That said, I've always thought that the writing on TNG was superior to TOS.  In that the episodes are more consistently good.  There are a lot of weak episodes or clunkers in TOS, but the good ones really shine.  And the movies were very good, for the most part.  I would say the writing on DS9 is on a similar level to TNG.  To be honest, I don't remember Voyager that well.  And all I remember of Enterprise is that it was just starting to get interesting when they cancelled it.

I'm glad to have finished the task of watching DS9, but I admit I kind of miss getting my daily dose of it.  I only started commenting on the episodes here starting with season six I think.  If I had it to do over again, I would have started at season one.  Maybe I need to rewatch it lol.

[VCRTracking]

From TV Guide.com:
Deep Space Nine made me feel like I wanted to die. It also gives me hope.

"Twenty years ago, "Far Beyond the Stars" introduced Star Trek's first black captain to America's ugly, racist past. This year, it helped me process my own mental health in America's present."

[SVNBob]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

From TV Guide.com:
Deep Space Nine made me feel like I wanted to die. It also gives me hope.

"Twenty years ago, "Far Beyond the Stars" introduced Star Trek's first black captain to America's ugly, racist past. This year, it helped me process my own mental health in America's present."

Great find.  Powerful read (even if I do disagree with some of the writer's interpretation of the episode's events, but those are not the point.)  Thanks for sharing.

[VCRTracking]

Great mashup of two favorite shows of mine:

[VCRTracking]

Ira Steven Behr Reveals How He Really Wanted ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’ To End + More DS9 At STLV 2018

[Charlesman]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Ira Steven Behr Reveals How He Really Wanted ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’ To End + More DS9 At STLV 2018

Wow, that ending would have been worse than the one for Enterprise.