S11.E13: Love Hurts

[catrox14]

That is how I took it too.  But it goes beyond that.  Not only was that given as the reason Dean was turned down.  But it implies that the woman was actively repulsed enough by Dean hitting on her to tell Dean that that was the reason he was being turned down.

 

So that leads me to thinking it was a flaw in Dean's approach that led to a spiteful and untrue reason to rebuff him rather than a truthful and legitimate reason to rebuff him.

 

Wait, what? Why would this be the case?

 

Nah, sorry I don't buy that whatsover. Dean picks up on women all over the country. He has never been shown to be a cad or an asshole with women other than when he was demon!Dean.  Dean had no problem hooking up at the beginning of the episode and had the hickey to prove it, so whatever approach he had worked on whoever he was with that night. 

 

Maybe he went fishing in the wrong pond, but since we don't know what pond he was in, we can't possibly begin to say it was something HE did wrong.  So weird.

[ParadoxLost]

Wait, what? Why would this be the case?

 

Nah, sorry I don't buy that whatsover. Dean picks up on women all over the country. He has never been shown to be a cad or an asshole with women other than when he was demon!Dean.  Dean had no problem hooking up at the beginning of the episode and had the hickey to prove it, so whatever approach he had worked on whoever he was with that night. 

 

But someone thinking Dean having a Dad bod is preposterous.  Someone telling such a blatant untruth is doubly so.

 

I was thinking it was something like Dean tries to pick up sister of ONS from the beginning of the episode, not realizing (can't remember if it was the same town).  Or woman is flirting until husband shows up and she covers (so spiteful to cover indiscretions without being Dean's fault).

[catrox14]

But someone thinking Dean having a Dad bod is preposterous.  Someone telling such a blatant untruth is doubly so.

 

I was thinking it was something like Dean tries to pick up sister of ONS from the beginning of the episode, not realizing (can't remember if it was the same town).  Or woman is flirting until husband shows up and she covers (so spiteful to cover indiscretions without being Dean's fault).

 

Well, that's quite a head!canon. LOL

 

It was a different town which is why Dean wanted to do it.

 

I'll just stick with someone being crazy. Hey maybe the gal likes a little heftier fella. Nothing wrong with that but man, even if you like a heftier fella, how do you just walk away from Dean Fucking Winchester...or should I how do you walk from fucking Dean Winchester.

Edited February 11, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Am I the only one that remembers that Dean was blown off earlier this season, too?

[catrox14]

Am I the only one that remembers that Dean was blown off earlier this season, too?

 

When did that happen?

[Save Yourself]

That is how I took it too. But it goes beyond that. Not only was that given as the reason Dean was turned down. But it implies that the woman was actively repulsed enough by Dean hitting on her to tell Dean that that was the reason he was being turned down.

So that leads me to thinking it was a flaw in Dean's approach that led to a spiteful and untrue reason to rebuff him rather than a truthful and legitimate reason to rebuff him.

That's similar to what I thought. As much as I think Jensen Ackles is one of the most beautiful men on the planet and I love Dean as he can be so much fun, Dean is also very cocky - sometimes too much so. I could see a scenario of this really drunk cocky guy hitting on a girl in an overbearing way, won't give up so maybe in the end she would say 'nup, you've got a dad bod!' just to get him to go away.

[Save Yourself]

Wait, what? Why would this be the case?

Nah, sorry I don't buy that whatsover. Dean picks up on women all over the country. He has never been shown to be a cad or an asshole with women other than when he was demon!Dean. Dean had no problem hooking up at the beginning of the episode and had the hickey to prove it, so whatever approach he had worked on whoever he was with that night.

Maybe he went fishing in the wrong pond, but since we don't know what pond he was in, we can't possibly begin to say it was something HE did wrong. So weird.

We are TOLD Dean picks girls up everywhere, we rarely see it, so we don't know what he does to pick them up, how he behaves or how many he strikes out with before he gets lucky. I know he's gorgeous but he also drinks a hell of a lot, I wouldn't take a very drunk stranger home with me because of safety - I probably would not want to talk to him at all if he was drunk, that's a massive turn off for me.

Now sober, funny Dean is a very different story

[catrox14]

We are TOLD Dean picks girls up everywhere, we rarely see it, so we don't know what he does to pick them up, how he behaves or how many he strikes out with before he gets lucky. I know he's gorgeous but he also drinks a hell of a lot, I wouldn't take a very drunk stranger home with me because of safety - I probably would not want to talk to him at all if he was drunk, that's a massive turn off for me.

 

That's similar to what I thought. As much as I think Jensen Ackles is one of the most beautiful men on the planet and I love Dean as he can be so much fun, Dean is also very cocky - sometimes too much so. I could see a scenario of this really drunk cocky guy hitting on a girl in an overbearing way, won't give up so maybe in the end she would say 'nup, you've got a dad bod!' just to get him to go away.

 

 

Okay, I'm really flummoxed by this. This is one thing about Dean that I will never buy into at all. I am going to die on the hill about this.

 

Are you guys confusing demon!Dean with regular!Dean? 

 

Point me to ONE scene of regular!Dean behaving as you've described. I literally cannot think of one time non-demon!Dean division.  We have seen Dean hit on women before.  We've seen him flirt and when someone doesn't show interest, he backs off even when he's been drinking. 

 

We don't actually know how often Dean hooks up like at all but we do know his behavior based on what we've been shown.  Dean is a sullen drunk or happy drunk, not a mean drunk. demon!Dean is a mean drunk who doesn't accept rejection at least from the stripper.

Edited February 12, 2016 by catrox14

[Morrigan2575]

Could someone explain the preciously to me. Any idea why they included Samhain?

Like others i loved the return of the Rock, Paper, Scissors game. I especially loved the fact that Dean won, since Dean never wins.

I liked the monster of the week story. I also liked the wife, glad she wasn't evil, just mislead by a witch.

[catrox14]

Could someone explain the preciously to me. Any idea why they included Samhain?

Like others i loved the return of the Rock, Paper, Scissors game. I especially loved the fact that Dean won, since Dean never wins.

I liked the monster of the week story. I also liked the wife, glad she wasn't evil, just mislead by a witch.

 

I have no idea why they included that episode.  I guess because it was a holiday episode? I thought that was weird too.

[Save Yourself]

When did that happen?

Early on in the season (when Amara was still a little girl and the boys were looking for her) a woman in a bar told Dean to get a life.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

And there was the episode when Dean was looking for cursed Cas and said "Hey!" to a woman walking by and she blew him off.

Why would the writers ever try to make us believe that someone turned Dean down based on his looks!? I could almost buy someone saying no if he was being too cocky or something (almost because he still looks like that) but "dad bod" is just stupid. TV is a visual medium, we all see that Dean looks like Jensen Ackles!!

[catrox14]

 

Early on in the season (when Amara was still a little girl and the boys were looking for her) a woman in a bar told Dean to get a life.

 

Dean was walking down the street, getting ready to turn down the alley and said Hi to the woman as he passed her, and she turned around and told him to get a life. He wasn't in a bar hitting on her.

[Save Yourself]

Okay, I'm really flummoxed by this. This is one thing about Dean that I will never buy into at all. I am going to die on the hill about this.

Are you guys confusing demon!Dean with regular!Dean?

Point me to ONE scene of regular!Dean behaving as you've described. I literally cannot think of one time non-demon!Dean division. We have seen Dean hit on women before. We've seen him flirt and when someone doesn't show interest, he backs off even when he's been drinking.

We don't actually know how often Dean hooks up like at all but we do know his behavior based on what we've been shown. Dean is a sullen drunk or happy drunk, not a mean drunk. demon!Dean is a mean drunk who doesn't accept rejection at least from the stripper.

Again, we don't see Dean pick women up much AT ALL. We are told about it. I can't remember seeing him pick up a woman in a very long time. I'm sure he does 'score' but we don't know when he strikes out, how many women he approaches or what he does when he hits on them. Dean IS incredibly cocky, that's just part of his persona and while I really like that aspect of him, that can also be a turn off. I'm not saying Dean is an asshole or mean or anything like that but I am saying that we know without a doubt that he DOES get very drunk and that alone can be enough to turn someone down. The scenario I've described in my original comment is very common, my friends and I have experienced it many times in bars and clubs, the guys aren't been 'rape-y', they're just being drunk (or high) and annoying and sometimes you want them to go away. I understand you really like Dean, I do too, but just because a guy is hot doesn't mean that he won't get knocked back. And hey, maybe the girl who said dad bod was drunk herself and just thought it was hilarious to knock back someone who looks like Dean by calling him a dad bod.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm not comparing Sam and Dean.

 

I am talking about what I think is the narrative shift in THIS specific Amara storyline from Dean to Sam and why I think that is supported by the final scene.

 

I thought I got that, and I was giving specific examples from the past of the show displaying similar things to illustrate why I disagreed. In my opinion, it's all going to come down to what happens next. And I'll give one more specific example below when addressing another comment.

 

Sam never spoke up that he thought there was something hinky up with Dean and Amara yet he alludes to having suspected for some time in this episode.

 

I thought that Sam was talking about from the banshee episode. Sam there, to me, seemed to have a pretty good idea that something was up with Dean, but he wasn't going to push if Dean didn't offer... and we don't know how much time has passed between then and now. It could've been a little while. That was my impression anyway. I didn't get the impression that Sam meant like from the beginning of the season or anything.

 

So whilst Dean had a mytharc-esque SL there was no POV from anyone reliable until this very episode. And boom as soon as his own (Dean's) POV is discussed we then get Sam's POV of Dean. And then we get Amara's SL slipped over to Sam.

 

This is sometimes how the show works, though. Example: season 4. We didn't get much POV from Sam concerning his demon blood drinking - at least in my opinion - either (hints in "Metamorphosis" and "I Know What You Did...") and when we did finally get something concrete in "On the Head...", it was put into an episode that had a whole bunch of Dean POV, too. We got a little more Sam POV in "Monster at the End..." but Sam's POV wasn't a main focus until near the very end of the season where we also got concurrent Dean POV. Similar with the example I gave concerning "My Bloody Valentine" where what was happening to Sam was shifted over into how Dean felt about it at the end of the episode which is why I was specifically comparing that episode with this one.

 

My main point in my post above was not to compare Sam and Dean. It was that in the past on this show, POV has not necessarily equaled who the "story" is about. Just because Dean got a lot of POV in season 4 and 5 didn't mean that the story was all about Dean, and I don't think that because we now have some of Sam's POV on Dean's situation here that that makes the story all about Sam now.

 

Dean is still connected to Amara, no matter how much he talks about potentially taking himself out of the fight, just like Sam saying no to and avoiding his connection to Lucifer in season 5 was only going to work for so long before it reared its ugly head again when the remaining horsemen stepped up their game (even if one of them was doing it against his will) and a hijacked Adam was thrown into the mix. Dean having the emotional arc shift between the end of "My Bloody Valentine" and "Point of No Return" did not mean that the story didn't eventually turn back to Sam's connection with Lucifer. So that was my reason for bringing up that episode in reference to this one.

 

But that is only my opinion on it, so I get that miles vary.

[catrox14]

Again, we don't see Dean pick women up much AT ALL. We are told about it. I can't remember seeing him pick up a woman in a very long time. I'm sure he does 'score' but we don't know when he strikes out, how many women he approaches or what he does when he hits on them. Dean IS incredibly cocky, that's just part of his persona and while I really like that aspect of him, that can also be a turn off. I'm not saying Dean is an asshole or mean or anything like that but I am saying that we know without a doubt that he DOES get very drunk and that alone can be enough to turn someone down. The scenario I've described in my original comment is very common, my friends and I have experienced it many times in bars and clubs, the guys aren't been 'rape-y', they're just being drunk (or high) and annoying and sometimes you want them to go away. I understand you really like Dean, I do too, but just because a guy is hot doesn't mean that he won't get knocked back. And hey, maybe the girl who said dad bod was drunk herself and just thought it was hilarious to knock back someone who looks like Dean by calling him a dad bod.

 

 

 

Dean displaying confidence and bravado/cocky or Dean having a strong personality or confidence with women =/= Dean forcing himself on women or being an asshole in that respect.

 

I know some people have issues with Dean and Suzy but IMO he did not disrespect her and he backed off when he knew nothing would happen. And only pursued it when she came on to him.

 

We DO have ON SCREEN several occasions where Dean has hit on women both when he's been drinking and when he's not and in none of those occasions did Dean push himself on anyone.  We don't hear any tales of Dean behaving in the manner you described.  There is nothing subtextually either that implies regular!Dean behaves that way as a matter of course or really even occasionally. So why make the leap to assume he does that when the show never mentions it EVER that I can think of?

 

What the show did do was have demon!Dean behave that way to illustrate the difference between regular!Dean and demon!Dean. 

 

JMHO

Edited February 12, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I know some people have issues with Dean and Suzy but IMO he did not disrespect her and he backed off when he knew nothing would happen. And only pursued it when she came on to him.

 

I even have the unpopular opinion that Dean and Suzy was helpful and enlightening for Suzy. I've known enough people who try to do extremes, and it often doesn't work - in various potentially bad and/or dangerous ways.* I liked Dean's attitude of moderation and how it works for him, and to me, it was a good thing for Suzy to hear that point of view. Sometimes moderation can be a good thing, and if a fling with Dean doesn't cause Suzy to fall entirely off the wagon but live through moderation on the noogie front, then in my opinion, that's a good thing.

 

* A doctor told my Grampa once that he should cut down a bit on his sugar. My grampa, being my grampa,  thought it would just be easier to give up sugar/carbs, and proceeded to cut sugar entirely out of his diet. When he next got his blood sugar tested it was like around 40... which I'm pretty sure is almost dangerously low. My mother-in-law read somewhere that oranges were good for her for something (high blood pressure or something)... she proceeded to eat like 10 in one sitting and almost citric acid poisoned herself. I have more examples like this, but I think that's enough to illustrate my point.

[Goldmoon]

Who is Suzy?

[catrox14]

Who is Suzy?

 

The ex porn star who was part of the born again virgin thing in s9

[Save Yourself]

Dean displaying confidence and bravado/cocky or Dean having a strong personality or confidence with women =/= Dean forcing himself on women or being an asshole in that respect.

I know some people have issues with Dean and Suzy but IMO he did not disrespect her and he backed off when he knew nothing would happen. And only pursued it when she came on to him.

We DO have ON SCREEN several occasions where Dean has hit on women both when he's been drinking and when he's not and in none of those occasions did Dean push himself on anyone. We don't hear any tales of Dean behaving in the manner you described. There is nothing subtextually either that implies regular!Dean behaves that way as a matter of course or really even occasionally. So why make the leap to assume he does that when the show never mentions it EVER that I can think of?

What the show did do was have demon!Dean behave that way to illustrate the difference between regular!Dean and demon!Dean.

JMHO

I never said Dean was forcing himself on women. My thoughts boil down to the fact that Dean drinks an awful lot, is regularly drunk, is cocky and that can turn women off. We all know that Dean doesn't have a dad bod but that doesn't preclude a girl saying that to him when knocking him back, most likely not because she thinks that but maybe to take him down a peg or because she's being a jerk. And the writers like to have fun with Jensen's beauty. In the banshee ep his hotness was constantly referred to, the writers don't just neg him re his looks.

AGAIN - I really really like (adore) Dean but his hotness doesn't mean he won't get turned down sometimes and maybe in a harsh way.

Edited for wordiness

Edited February 12, 2016 by Save Yourself

[Omegamom]

I'm gonna agree with Save Yourself here. We love Dean. We know what makes him tick. We know that beneath the cocky, wildly handsome exterior, there's soul and substance and introspection and intelligence and respect for women. But I can tell you, when I was of the age and physique to get hit on, the kind of guy that Dean comes across as on first glance, is the kind of guy who (a) knows he's good-looking and (b) is full of himself. Neither of which is appealing to me. I'd probably take a pass, myself.

(Also, there's the fact that Mr. Extremely Handsome and Full Of Self Confidence would push a lot of "I'm not good enough" buttons in me...)

[catrox14]

I'm gonna agree with Save Yourself here. We love Dean. We know what makes him tick. We know that beneath the cocky, wildly handsome exterior, there's soul and substance and introspection and intelligence and respect for women. But I can tell you, when I was of the age and physique to get hit on, the kind of guy that Dean comes across as on first glance, is the kind of guy who (a) knows he's good-looking and (b) is full of himself. Neither of which is appealing to me. I'd probably take a pass, myself.

(Also, there's the fact that Mr. Extremely Handsome and Full Of Self Confidence would push a lot of "I'm not good enough" buttons in me...)

 

In this episode, Dean did not come back drunk to the hotel that I could discern. We don't know how long he was gone, but I don't think it was more than a couple or 3 hours because he brought back food. I did not have the impression that he was hammered so not sure how the fits with obnoxious!yet charming drunk!Dean scenario leading to a "Dad bod" reference. 

 

Respectfully, it seems like Dean is being kept in a box and kind of judged or analyzed by the filter of who he was 10 years agol in the show vs who he is today. He's not the same person and his interactions with people in bars will be different now too. And IMO especially given his behavior as a demon that he surely doesn't forget (I hope) he might be even MORE aware of being obnoxious or intimidating.

 

But I'm not going to belabor the point in this thread. I'll take the rest of my thoughts to the Dean thread.

[Demented Daisy]

I know some people have issues with Dean and Suzy but IMO he did not disrespect her and he backed off when he knew nothing would happen. And only pursued it when she came on to him.

 

That would be me and I disagree.  But I have no interest in discussing it again.

 

Between the girl in the street, Mildred, and the girl in this episode, I think they are (quite clumsily) trying to tell us that women are rejecting Dean because they sense that he "belongs to another", as it were.  I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with Dean.

 

Like, if you're in a bar and a handsome guy is hitting on you, but you look at his left hand and see a distinctive mark on his ring finger.  No matter how handsome or charming he is, you might reject him for that alone.  

 

Or perhaps Amara is exerting some strange influence over the women of the world, putting out a "Hands off, he's mine" vibe that's strong enough to reach everyone.  I doubt it, but in the Carver era, almost anything is possible.

[Aeryn13]

I think they made the point of "you belong to another" with Mildred last episode explicitely but in this one it was just his deepest darkest desire materializing as Amara. Which quite frankly I find ludicrous because they hav set up a curious connection between Dean and Amara but nothing that is remotely as strong as they keep telling now. Tell vs. show again. He wasn`t even that much under her thrall in the scenes they had together. And he snapped out of it twice with very little motivator for it. But yeah, try to sell me that she is his every waking (and dreaming) desire. 

 

But him getting show down here with an annoying "dad bod" joke is really just IMO tiny-dick-syndrom from the writers. And sure, Mildred last episode found him attractive but Mildred is a much older woman. So apparently, it is that Dean is attractive to 60 years plus but not to young woman aka he is too old.   

[MysteryGuest]

They do seem to be pushing the "Dean is now an old man" theme lately.  I'm not sure why, but it's kind of annoying. I mean seriously, the man is in his 30's, and looks great.  

 

I think Dean was acting almost a bit desperate to get laid this last time, so that may have been the turnoff.  I got the impression that he had been hooking up a lot lately to try to fight his icky desire for Amara.  Normally, he doesn't come across as desperate in his pursuit of women, but I don't think he's acting normal.

[DittyDotDot]

Dean won at Rock Paper Scissors, ya'll...DEAN WON ROCK PAPER SCISSORS!!! Hee!

 

Although, I admit, I'm not sure why they were even playing Rock Paper Scissors. It's not like they were deciding who got to go where and even though Dean won, Sam still took the upstairs as he said he would before. Whatever, it was still fun.

 

I never know what to expect from a Charmelo/Snyder episode, but color me surprised to say I think this is maybe a step up from the "Welp, it wasn't offensive" file that I've tucked 90 percent of the episodes into this season. Damn it show, I not only can't find my labels right now, but don't know what to label such a file...stupid show ruining my fine-tuned filing system. ;)

 

Anyhoo, I didn't love it, and it makes no more sense than anything else they've been doing lately, but it had a tone that somewhat, kinda, sorta...maybe...perhaps... worked better this time? I don't know. 

 

In other news, no "what episode was that guy in previously" finds this time. Boo! Don't they know I love this game? Plus, it gives me something to think about so I'm not lulled into into unconsciousness due to all the yammering they like to do lately.

 

 

Between the girl in the street, Mildred, and the girl in this episode, I think they are (quite clumsily) trying to tell us that women are rejecting Dean because they sense that he "belongs to another", as it were.  I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with Dean.

 

Like, if you're in a bar and a handsome guy is hitting on you, but you look at his left hand and see a distinctive mark on his ring finger.  No matter how handsome or charming he is, you might reject him for that alone.  

 

Or perhaps Amara is exerting some strange influence over the women of the world, putting out a "Hands off, he's mine" vibe that's strong enough to reach everyone.  I doubt it, but in the Carver era, almost anything is possible.

 

You're first observation would be my guess too. Plus, it also seeds in there's just something off about Dean right now. But I wouldn't mind seeing them try to pull off your second idea. Hey, I'm pretty sure they haven't done that before... .

 

 

Could someone explain the preciously to me. Any idea why they included Samhain?

 

Or Cupid, or all the pagan god stuff too? I don't know, but they've been doing this in on the previouslies for one-offs quite a bit lately. I'm not sure if they're making a conscious effort to not tip off what the monster will be in the episode to come or if they're just filling time because they wouldn't have a suitable clip for this episode? Maybe a bit of both? Either way, I don't think Samhain had any particular significance other than it was a monster they once hunted on a holiday? Yeah, I got nothin'.

[KirkB]

I think the previously was meant to indicate this was a holiday themed episode, at least by Supernatural standards. Bloody Valentines Day. So they showed us clips from Halloween and Christmas esque episodes for reference.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean won at Rock Paper Scissors, ya'll...DEAN WON ROCK PAPER SCISSORS!!! Hee!

 

Remember the last time he won?  It was that Titanic episode -- a hint that something was wrong in the universe.  

 

You're first observation would be my guess too. Plus, it also seeds in there's just something off about Dean right now. 

 

Hmmm....

 

But I wouldn't mind seeing them try to pull off your second idea. Hey, I'm pretty sure they haven't done that before...

 

*giggle snort*  So no way they'll do it, then?  ;-)

[Save Yourself]

In this episode, Dean did not come back drunk to the hotel that I could discern. We don't know how long he was gone, but I don't think it was more than a couple or 3 hours because he brought back food. I did not have the impression that he was hammered so not sure how the fits with obnoxious!yet charming drunk!Dean scenario leading to a "Dad bod" reference. 

 

Respectfully, it seems like Dean is being kept in a box and kind of judged or analyzed by the filter of who he was 10 years agol in the show vs who he is today. He's not the same person and his interactions with people in bars will be different now too. And IMO especially given his behavior as a demon that he surely doesn't forget (I hope) he might be even MORE aware of being obnoxious or intimidating.

 

But I'm not going to belabor the point in this thread. I'll take the rest of my thoughts to the Dean thread.

 

 

I haven't called Dean obnoxious, intimidating, mean, a cad or an asshole or any of the other words you've used in your defence of Dean being turned down. I've said he's cocky and he is, I've said he drinks a lot and he does. I have no idea if he was drunk that night and I have no idea how long he was gone and I don't understand what difference it makes how long he was out anyway. I have never thought that Dean was obnoxious, etc at any point in the series so there is no 'filter', I'm not sure what box you're referring to and I'm not really sure how many times I need to reiterate that I am a big fan of Dean's but I am able to see that he (like every other person in the world) would sometimes get turned down. I even said the girl could have said it just to be a jerk, guys neg girls and girls can neg guys as well. I thought of a hypothetical reason why a fictional character could not get a shag one night. Omegamom gives a very good reason why Dean was possibly knocked back:

 

I'm gonna agree with Save Yourself here. We love Dean. We know what makes him tick. We know that beneath the cocky, wildly handsome exterior, there's soul and substance and introspection and intelligence and respect for women. But I can tell you, when I was of the age and physique to get hit on, the kind of guy that Dean comes across as on first glance, is the kind of guy who (a) knows he's good-looking and (b) is full of himself. Neither of which is appealing to me. I'd probably take a pass, myself.

 

 

I'm done with this now also.

[dragonsbite]

Is it really "deep, dark desire" that Dean feels for Amara? That's the phrase they used in this episode, and yet it doesn't seem accurate. My head cannon (before this episode) had been saying it's:

 

• an unnatural/supernatural bond or binding between them - not of their choice
• a connection forced upon Dean (which has rape-y vibes) - again, not of his choice
• it's a bond the she created for her own purposes, where she's trying to overpower his will with her own. All of these supernatural creatures seem to need human souls for power

 

Dean being Dean believes it is his fault that he's attracted to Amara. And of course, feels shameful. So it's good that Sam corrects him on this point. It really isn't Dean's fault -- and I hope that he eventually comes to that realization too. He needs to see that Amara's tempting Dean (and others) with "feelings of bliss" that made others discard their value systems. In my cannon, Dean is still the righteous man that Castiel raised from perdition -- even if the writers have forgotten this. And even if Dean thinks that he's irreparably damaged by what he's done in his life. It's still highly unlikely that Dean would willingly give in to Amara's bliss...because if Dean discards his values system, then he's once again the demon!Dean personality. And that's abhorrent (to Dean and me).

 

Oh OH! Just remembered something. Catrox14  mentioned the "entire episode was lampshading this 'pay it forward' with the kisses." What if (speculation thread-?) the way to defeat Amara is with passing something through a kiss to her?

 

 

eta: paragraph spacing fix

Edited February 12, 2016 by dragonsbite

[catrox14]

So after a 3rd re-watch last night, I'm kind of hung up on Sam using the word martyr as a way in to discuss Dean's connection with Amara. I sort of blew it off because Dean telling Sam about Amara was being broached at least.

 

So yeah have questions.

 

In general IMO saying someone is "being a martyr" is loaded and polarizing because it can be used in a snarky, disdainful way like someone saying 'Oh geez, quit being such a martyr' which implies someone is not really as burdened as they pretend or they are suffering for attention or whatever.  But I don't think that's the case here.

 

Dean acted in the moment by kissing the woman to save her by taking the burden on to himself. Sure it's metaphorical but it's also a literal thing that Sam and Dean have BOTH taken on burdens to save people. Why is this time different?

 

If Dean had told Sam that was the plan, would that no longer have made it a martyrish act?

 

If Sam really does believe that what Dean did in that moment was being a martyr, does that mean Sam is starting to rethink hunting again? Is it implying that Sam might now think of  'saving people' as being a martyr? That would be completely unexpected and I highly doubt that's the case. 

 

If Sam only just recently kind of pinged that something was up with Dean as of the banshee episode and then pieced together that Dean almost had his heart literally ripped out because he was "longing" for something, why is he jumping to Dean being a "martyr" about Amara or is he looking in hindsight and deciding that Dean is being a martyr by NOT talking about it all this time?  Which seems...odd.

 

So, now I'm thinking maybe this is intentionally foreshadowing a bit of the 1st definition of martyr as

 

A person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs:

One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.

One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

 

So could this be foreshadowing that Dean is being martyred by Amara because he refuses to accept her?

 

Demented Daisy, I like your idea that Amara has made Dean unobtainable although it doesn't quite comport with him supposedly getting a hickey earlier but it does kind of tie back to the original Mark of Cain in common RL lore that Cain was cursed to roam the earth alone.  If Amara has made Dean 'unapproachable' or 'undesirable' that would be awful.  Dean is nothing if not a social creature. IMO he needs that connection.  Dean looking to get laid IMO is his typical comparmentalizing when he's stressed out. So maybe this is a Jealous God that does not want anyone "soiling" this perfect thing she wants.

 

I dunno. I just think that "martyr" is meaningful.

 

ETA: Maybe it's foreshadowing Sam being martyred too. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

For.....science..

 

My lord. Dean, you should just quit hunting and be a damn supermodel. Get your Blue Steel on and get paid bank for it.  I mean he's objectified anyway so he should be in control of that objectification. 

 

OH and wait a minute...Is this the same outfit he wore in Blade Runners when the curator hit on him and he touched the First Blade for the first time. I don't think he's worn it since then has he?

 

Edited February 12, 2016 by catrox14

[bethy]

He really is just so, so pretty.

 

I can't help but be amused by the Winchesters' increasingly fancy FBI duds. I guess their time in the Lair has increased their appreciation for snappy clothes. Or maybe this is a result of Dean's time with Elliot Ness and the tailor. He knows he can look gooooood. Don't get me wrong; I appreciate the visuals. But Sam and Dean in designer suits is wrong on so many levels to me. 

[catrox14]

He really is just so, so pretty.

 

I can't help but be amused by the Winchesters' increasingly fancy FBI duds. I guess their time in the Lair has increased their appreciation for snappy clothes. Or maybe this is a result of Dean's time with Elliot Ness and the tailor. He knows he can look gooooood. Don't get me wrong; I appreciate the visuals. But Sam and Dean in designer suits is wrong on so many levels to me. 

 

Heh, My head!canon is that Crowley gave them the name of a good tailor....

[Demented Daisy]

Except they ate his tailor.  ;-)

[catrox14]

Except they ate his tailor.  ;-)

 

Oh you know Crowley has more tailors on speed dial!

[Omegamom]

Yeah, Crowley's not gonna let anything trivial like an eaten tailor keep him from his fitted suits. He just had to find a new tailor, one he was satisfied with.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!
 

Supernatural Teaches The Winchester Boys The Fine Art of Dyeing
It turns out Valentine's Day is all right for cursing your husband.

[BlueMeanie]

Hey, been lurking for a while, finally decided to participate.  I have no one else to talk to about this show.

 

I love that Dean finally won Rock, Paper, Scissors and subsequently was so excited about it that he forgot what they were playing for.  Apparently they were playing to decide who got to go upstairs, which Sam wanted to do, and then even though Dean won, Sam still went upstairs.  I’m not sure why going upstairs was the better option though.  Kind of makes me wish that they had been playing for something more substantial.  I also loved how upset Sam was that Dean won.

 

It was nice of them to leave money at the hotel to pay for the broken window.

 

I was really worried that Dean was going to continue to hide his connection with Amara from Sam when Sam didn’t see her at the salon.  In the end I liked it better that he was honest with Sam, instead of being caught hiding something, which is usually how things play out.  Obviously Sam already suspected something was going on, but he seems like he’s trying really hard not to push Dean this season as he has in the past.  Dean needs time to wrap his own head around things before he can talk to Sam about it.  Besides I think that it's a lot easier for Dean to live in denial if he doesn't tell Sam what's going on.

 

At first I was surprised that Sam wasn’t surprised, but he has always been able to read Dean pretty well and I think he’s gotten subtle clues throughout the season.  Dean being so protective of baby Amara.  Dean not being very forthcoming about his first interaction with Amara.  When Cas questioned why Dean let Amara go and Dean said that she overpowered him, Cas could tell that he wasn’t telling the truth and Sam saw this.  And of course Dean's vulnerability in Into the Mystic.

 

I’m not sure how I think this is all going to play out, but I don’t think that Dean is going to be completely uninvolved in stopping Amara.  I thought it was interesting that in the previously’s they showed Amara telling Dean that they would become one.  I think this will happen I just don’t know exactly what it means.  Can she possess him?  Will she consume his soul?

[Wynne88]

And wasn't Sam there when Crowley was demanding Dean tell him why Amara was so protective of him? I'm actually kind of proud of Sam for giving Dean time to think it through a little, and tell him in his own time.

My theory on the nicer duds is that now they actually have closets where they can hang such things up. Not much point in having nice clothes if they're just going to get crammed into duffle bags. I do wonder where they're getting money for things like that, and meals at restaurants and hotel rooms. Are they still running credit card scams? Seems kind that would be harder now than it was 10 years ago.

[catrox14]

 

. Are they still running credit card scams? S

 

They were as of last season when Sam was teaching Claire how to do it :).  Plus Dean is hustling pool as of last season too :)

[AwesomO4000]

Hey, been lurking for a while, finally decided to participate.  I have no one else to talk to about this show.

 

Welcome to our little crazytown, BlueMeanie. We might be a little strange, sometimes, but we're (mostly) harmless.

 

I love your screen name by the way. When I was a kid, my sister and I used to watch "The Yellow Submarine" every year (because a local station played it every year for some reason), and I always said that if I ever had a band, I would've named it The Blue Meanies.

 

If you decide to get an icon, I hope that it will be Max or the head Blue Meanie, because that would be awesome.

[SueB]

I never know what to expect from a Charmelo/Snyder episode, but color me surprised to say I think this is maybe a step up from the "Welp, it wasn't offensive" file that I've tucked 90 percent of the episodes into this season. Damn it show, I not only can't find my labels right now, but don't know what to label such a file...stupid show ruining my fine-tuned filing system. ;)

 

Are these mental files manilla, brown, green, or other colored?  Are the labels on top or the side? Hanging file or not?  THESE are the questions that go thru my office supply OCD mind.  Thought you ought to know.

 

 

I dunno. I just think that "martyr" is meaningful.

 

ITA. I picked up on that straight away. Sam was alarmed at how quickly Dean stepped into harm's way.  Sam's all for the second half of the bumper sticker but seeing Dean do that has put him on "Dean-watch" in my mind. Add to that the apparent increased hook-up appetite and I suspect Sam sees a connection with the whole Amara non-con situation. 

 

I REALLY loved that final scene.  It spoke to everything that haven't acknowledged in the past.  I found it very well written.

[catrox14]

Welcome to our little crazytown, BlueMeanie. We might be a little strange, sometimes, but we're (mostly) harmless.

 

I love your screen name by the way. When I was a kid, my sister and I used to watch "The Yellow Submarine" every year (because a local station played it every year for some reason), and I always said that if I ever had a band, I would've named it The Blue Meanies.

 

If you decide to get an icon, I hope that it will be Max or the head Blue Meanie, because that would be awesome.

 

Seconding.

[DittyDotDot]

Welcome to our little crazytown, BlueMeanie. We might be a little strange, sometimes, but we're (mostly) harmless.

 

I am NOT harmless...but, yes, welcome BlueMeanie! ;)

 

It was nice of them to leave money at the hotel to pay for the broken window.

 

Oh pooh, I must have missed that. That's awesome! See, they are nice boys. ;)

 

Are these mental files manilla, brown, green, or other colored?  Are the labels on top or the side? Hanging file or not?  THESE are the questions that go thru my office supply OCD mind.  Thought you ought to know.

 

Well, since it's my own imaginary filing system, it's quite organized and colorful and just wonderful--no hanging files though, those are just annoying and pretentious!

 

BTW, you might want to know, I wonder if your OCD mind has you counting to some number over and over, or doing some other action continuously, until I tell you the answer? ;)

[SueB]

20. I count to 20. Just ya know, saying.

In other thoughts; I think God has caused this connection and it confuses Amara too. Now she hella' powerful and has more control over Dean BUT, I think she didn't forge the connection.

I'm telling ya, Dean Winchester is the secret weapon of God to convert the Darkness to Team Free Will. I feel it in my bones. Now, it sucks for Dean. But Supernatural mythology seems to be okay with God 'and his shiny red apples' engagement approach.

[Demented Daisy]

I am NOT harmless...but, yes, welcome BlueMeanie! ;)

 

 

Puh-leez.  You're as harmless as I am.  *cackle*  And what she said, BlueMeanie.

[BlueMeanie]

And wasn't Sam there when Crowley was demanding Dean tell him why Amara was so protective of him?

 

Oh yeah I forgot about that.  Yes, that too.

 

Welcome to our little crazytown, BlueMeanie. We might be a little strange, sometimes, but we're (mostly) harmless.

 

I love your screen name by the way. When I was a kid, my sister and I used to watch "The Yellow Submarine" every year (because a local station played it every year for some reason), and I always said that if I ever had a band, I would've named it The Blue Meanies.

 

If you decide to get an icon, I hope that it will be Max or the head Blue Meanie, because that would be awesome.

 

Thanks!  It's been a while since I've done the message board thing, so first I'll have to remember how to get an icon. :-)  As I said I've been lurking, so I'm fully aware of the crazy, but I'm right there with you.  I only just started watching the show over the summer and was not prepared for how much I was going to love it.  I may have already re-watched the entire series and then some.

[FlickChick]

Thanks!  It's been a while since I've done the message board thing, so first I'll have to remember how to get an icon. :-)  As I said I've been lurking, so I'm fully aware of the crazy, but I'm right there with you.  I only just started watching the show over the summer and was not prepared for how much I was going to love it.  I may have already re-watched the entire series and then some.

Yes, welcome BlueMeanie. Wow on the accomplishment of watching the entire series in such a short time! I started at the beginning when I was young. ;) Is it true that when you view the series in long sessions, that it is more cohesive? Just curious...

[MysteryGuest]

I started watching SPN last year on Netflix, and binge watched seasons 1 - 9.  I absolutely found it to be more cohesive of a story that way, even with the monster of the week episodes thrown in.  It's just a much more pleasant way to watch, I think.  Having to wait a week for each episode, dealing with commercials, biding your time through multiple, lengthy hiatuses...definitely not as enjoyable.  This is only the 2nd season I've watched "live", and I much prefer watching the other way.  But once hooked, I wasn't about to wait around for a year for them to add the next season, so weekly viewing it is!