S01.E11: That Text Was Not Meant For Josh!

[Eyes High]

I kind of want Greg to sing a reprise of the bitch-song once he screws up with Heather.

 

Greg already has his own song about exquisite self-hatred. "Settle For Me" is about self-loathing, both implicitly (the premise of the song is that Greg's self-esteem is so low that he'll pursue a girl he knows is interested in someone else and is totally okay with her settling for him) and explicitly ("I'm right here / In flesh and blood and self-hate"). It wouldn't fit for a situation where he screws up with Heather, granted, but I suspect we'll get a reprise sooner or later (outside the instrumental "Settle For Me" cue they used when Rebecca and Greg were hugging).

 

I hope Greg gets a cheery, uplifting song soon. "What'll It Be?" and "Settle For Me" were dark, dark, dark.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Eyes High

[theatremouse]

"You Stupid Bitch" is a good example of how this show has been hamstrung by airing on the CW as opposed to Showtime. The language in the song--"poopy little slut," really?"--was awfully tame compared to real negative self-talk. In reality, negative self-talk is less "poopy little slut" and more "shitty fucking whore" (which also fits the stress pattern of the lyrics).

I didn't see that particular lyric as an example of non-cable-hamstrungedness. I took it as intentionally silly for comedic purposes. Yes, "shitty fucking whore" is more realistic harsh negative self-talk. And "poopy" is infantile and ridiculous, and therefore intended to be more funny because it's theoretically more surprising because it's absurd. Obviously whether it landed that way or not varies within the audience, but I don't think it was a compromise-with-the-censors lyric. I'm sure there have been times they couldn't use the language they otherwise would've wanted to had they been on Showtime, but I didn't think this specific line was one of them. Edited February 10, 2016 by theatremouse

[arc]

Bloom uploaded "You Stupid Bitch" to her own Youtube channel, but not as an explicit version, so probably "poopy little slut" was an artistic choice and not forced by censors.

Edited February 10, 2016 by arc

[AnnaRose]

Hmm...I actually think Josh would have read the text even if Rebecca had explained the situation. He would have probably grinned and said "Becks, I cannot be that bad." and then he would have read it.

 

She could have just waited for him and then told him that she accidentally sent him a text while at work that was covered under attorney-client privilege.  I'm sure he would have let her delete it, but then we wouldn't have gotten all the crazy breaking and entering/ rock through the glass slider hi-jinks.

 

For someone who lies a lot and is supposed to be so smart, she really sucks at it.

[Eyes High]

She could have just waited for him and then told him that she accidentally sent him a text while at work that was covered under attorney-client privilege.  I'm sure he would have let her delete it, but then we wouldn't have gotten all the crazy breaking and entering/ rock through the glass slider hi-jinks.

 

For someone who lies a lot and is supposed to be so smart, she really sucks at it.

 

To be fair to Rebecca, she was under a tremendous amount of stress at the time. Just because she's supersmart and also fairly creative doesn't mean that she can't be reduced to babbling incoherence by unexpected events. Some supersmart people are terrible at bullshitting under pressure, especially supersmart people who seem to have the types of issues Rebecca has been hinted to have (anxiety, depression, etc.); yes, even lawyers, who are professional bullshitters.

[AnnaRose]

She's had years of practice bullshitting under pressure, and during the drive over she had plenty of time to think of a better plan than breaking and entering.  That's Rebecca though.  She's a self-destructive mess. 

[Eyes High]

She's had years of practice bullshitting under pressure, and during the drive over she had plenty of time to think of a better plan than breaking and entering.  That's Rebecca though.  She's a self-destructive mess. 

 

I think she's fine with bullshitting about things that she's not personally invested in. The stress of potentially being outed to Josh prevented her from showing her usual lawyerly verve.

 

Looking back on Greg's refusal to comfort Rebecca in this episode, I still think that his realization that he needed to maintain healthy boundaries with Rebecca and respect his own relationship with Heather was understandable. However, it seems unfair that in 1x06, he showed up at Rebecca's uninvited and insisted on spending time with her when he needed company and comforting, even as she tried to beg off due to her obvious illness, but that in 1x11 he was unwilling to swallow his own injured pride about Rebecca preferring Josh for five fucking seconds to be there for her when she was clearly in deep emotional distress. Cynically, I guess you could say that he interpreted her pleas for him to stay as an attempt at yet more manipulative behaviour instead of a genuine cry for help, but I think Greg was smart enough to know that Rebecca was genuinely in need of emotional support at that moment; he just couldn't bring himself to offer it after having been used by her in the past. And while I get that, it seems unfair that he was able to obtain comfort from Rebecca in 1x06 when she would have had every right to shoo him off, but that he's unwilling in 1x11 to extend her the same courtesy.

[dubbel zout]

it seems unfair that he was able to obtain comfort from Rebecca in 1x06 when she would have had every right to shoo him off, but that he's unwilling in 1x11 to extend her the same courtesy.

 

So Greg shouldn't be allowed to learn and grow? He knows it's bad for him to be around Rebecca. He doesn't want to get sucked into her ish. I don't blame him. And all of this is Rebecca's doing. I think if it hadn't involved Josh, he'd have stuck around.

[Eyes High]

So Greg shouldn't be allowed to learn and grow? He knows it's bad for him to be around Rebecca. He doesn't want to get sucked into her ish. I don't blame him. And all of this is Rebecca's doing. I think if it hadn't involved Josh, he'd have stuck around.

I think that's the thing. If it hadn't been for his wounded pride over Rebecca preferring Josh, he would have stuck around. He was well within his rights to establish healthy boundaries with Rebecca, just as Rebecca would have been well within her rights to tell him to fuck off in 1x06; Rebecca seemed close to kicking him out until he said what a terrible Thanksgiving he'd had. Still, Rebecca was able to see past her own feelings for Greg's sake, but Greg couldn't do the same for her.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Eyes High

[Snarklepuss]

I'm wondering how the change in Paula's relationship with her husband will change how she pushes for her to do crazy things to get close to Josh.  I'd love to see her and her husband become a duo towards this end.  In order to keep the excitement alive they'll have to continue so it may actually make them more pushy and take more risks.

 

Mr. S and I saw so many 80s/90s rock artists in that band, LOL.  First the drummer's hair reminded me of Grace Jones.  The female singer's hair and makeup was reminiscent of Heart.  The lead singer was reminiscent of Steve Tyler and Brett Michaels, and the other guy with the long dark hair reminded me of the corresponding dark haired guy in White Snake or anyone from Motley Crue, LOL.

[Rinaldo]

I think that's the thing. If it hadn't been for his wounded pride over Rebecca preferring Josh, he would have stuck around. He was well within his rights to establish healthy boundaries with Rebecca, just as Rebecca would have been well within her rights to tell him to fuck off in 1x06; Rebecca seemed close to kicking him out until he said what a terrible Thanksgiving he'd had. Still, Rebecca was able to see past her own feelings for Greg's sake, but Greg couldn't do the same for her.

That wasn't some huge self-denial on her part, though; part of her wanted company then too. Also, people can be selfish and unfair, and these characters aren't being presented as role models, they're all messed up in their own ways with their own agendas. We've certainly seen that Greg is. (And is a better dramatic character for it; in the pilot I assumed his mission was to be the nice healthy guy whom Rebecca will ultimately see is right for her, and things turned out much more complicated and interesting than that.)

 

But all of that is open to personal interpretation; the crucial thing as I see it is that time has passed, stuff has happened, and their relationship isn't the same as it was on Thanksgiving, so there's no real parallel.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend Ruins Everything...And It's Great
Crazy Ex-Girlfriend gets its cringiest, but also its most relatable, in an episode that crashes from funny to tragic faster than you can send a text.

[Eyes High]

That wasn't some huge self-denial on her part, though; part of her wanted company then too. Also, people can be selfish and unfair, and these characters aren't being presented as role models, they're all messed up in their own ways with their own agendas. We've certainly seen that Greg is. (And is a better dramatic character for it; in the pilot I assumed his mission was to be the nice healthy guy whom Rebecca will ultimately see is right for her, and things turned out much more complicated and interesting than that.)

 

But all of that is open to personal interpretation; the crucial thing as I see it is that time has passed, stuff has happened, and their relationship isn't the same as it was on Thanksgiving, so there's no real parallel.

 

I don't agree that Rebecca wanted company at that point, thus her pointed question about him not using phone or email to call before showing at her home uninvited (and her attempting to beg off by saying she couldn't eat). She did enjoy his company once she relented in the face of his description of his terrible Thanksgiving, but she clearly wanted to be alone and refrained from giving Greg the rightful boot he deserved.

 

Greg is far from some kind of role model; in his own way, he's as fucked up as Rebecca. However, even Rebecca in all her spectacularly shitty selfishness was able to shove her completely justified personal feelings aside--annoyance at Greg's appalling rudeness, misery over her gastrointestinal distress, etc.--to offer comfort to someone she cared about who needed it. It's understandable that Greg couldn't do the same for her and that he allowed his (again, completely justified) personal feelings to trump his concern for Rebecca, but it smacks of unfairness. Whether Rebecca was in distress over some imagined lovers' quarrel, as Greg believed, or whether she was in distress over something "legitimate" in Greg's mind (i.e. unconnected with Josh), she was still in distress and, knowing this, he turned his back on her.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Eyes High

[dubbel zout]

I can't see Greg as a bad guy for not wanting to stay with Rebecca. As Rinaldo pointed out, a lot has happened since Thanksgiving, and Greg has had a front-row seat for it. I don't think anyone is saying Greg isn't messed up, but he does seem to be trying to get better. Rebecca is still in her downward spiral, and it's all related to Josh. Why would Greg want to get involved with that? He's allowed to look out for himself.

Edited February 10, 2016 by dubbel zout

[possibilities]

I was disappointed by Father Brah this time. Loved him before, found him kind of useless this time. It's true his advice worked, but I didn't enjoy the scene where he delivered it.

 

I thought Greg walking out on Rebecca was a healthy decision this week.

[PodcastTown]

It would be daring for this show if instead of having Josh and Rebecca hook up. Have Josh take her to a mental Asylum or get her some help? It can still be a comedy, she can make new friends or enemies in the Asylum. So much material to be had with that. 

[Irlandesa]

However, it seems unfair that in 1x06, he showed up at Rebecca's uninvited and insisted on spending time with her when he needed company and comforting, even as she tried to beg off due to her obvious illness, but that in 1x11 he was unwilling to swallow his own injured pride about Rebecca preferring Josh for five fucking seconds to be there for her when she was clearly in deep emotional distress. Cynically, I guess you could say that he interpreted her pleas for him to stay as an attempt at yet more manipulative behaviour instead of a genuine cry for help, but I think Greg was smart enough to know that Rebecca was genuinely in need of emotional support at that moment; he just couldn't bring himself to offer it after having been used by her in the past. And while I get that, it seems unfair that he was able to obtain comfort from Rebecca in 1x06 when she would have had every right to shoo him off, but that he's unwilling in 1x11 to extend her the same courtesy.

Rebecca wasn't feeling well in 1.06 but I didn't see Rebecca letting Greg in as it being all about him. She had just spent the previous episode going out of her way to prove she wasn't a horrible person after their disasterous date.  So Greg coming over for emotional support or whatever was a win for her.   It was low cost support.  She isn't hurt by Greg's family situation. And while it's a choice he's making, it's not a situation he's creating.

 

Greg was prepared to be supportive but I do think Josh's presence changes things.  It wasn't just about wounded pride. Josh's presence is a hint towards the pathology that led to Rebecca's dramatic state and the window being broken.  Greg and Rebecca have a history.  And then they have another history surrounding Rebecca's obsession with Josh. A history that includes Rebecca trying to get intimate with him in order to get information about Josh. If he didn't suspect that she'd self harm, then I think it was 100% fair he chose to assert some boundaries when it comes to drama resulting from Rebecca's Josh obsession.  That drama is self-created and it takes people down with it.

[Eyes High]

Greg was prepared to be supportive but I do think Josh's presence changes things.  It wasn't just about wounded pride. Josh's presence is a hint towards the pathology that led to Rebecca's dramatic state and the window being broken.  Greg and Rebecca have a history.  And then they have another history surrounding Rebecca's obsession with Josh. A history that includes Rebecca trying to get intimate with him in order to get information about Josh. If he didn't suspect that she'd self harm, then I think it was 100% fair he chose to assert some boundaries when it comes to drama resulting from Rebecca's Josh obsession.  That drama is self-created and it takes people down with it.

 

I guess my problem with Greg haughtily asserting the moral high ground and his entitlement to boundaries at this juncture is that he's been cheerfully trampling over Rebecca's boundaries as much as she's been cheerfully trampling over his: strolling up to her and Josh in 1x05 to inform her that she's a liar and a terrible person (and cruelly dangling the threat of outing the specifics of the vegan debacle to Josh), inviting himself over to Rebecca's and ignoring her polite attempts to beg off in 1x06, casually needling Rebecca in front of Josh about her strange reference to her interest in "non-Josh" people on the party bus in 1x09, etc. etc. Rebecca even astutely points out that he's pretty much doing the opposite of "avoiding" her by entering into a relationship with a friend of hers who lives next door, despite his claim otherwise (and this seems to be implicitly confirmed by his admission in 1x11 that he is taking advantage of his relationship with Heather to walk by Rebecca's place).

 

Also, for someone who's supposedly recoiling from drama by turning his back on Rebecca, Greg looooves starting shit (the 1x05 conversation is a great example, but he also got right into it with his poor mom in 1x08 and with Josh in 1x09). As any true drama queen would be, he was extremely disappointed at being cheated out of a flashy, cathartic showdown with his boss in 1x06. He has no leg to stand on when it comes to chiding Rebecca for her self-involved, dramatic bullshit, when he's just as much of a selfish, drama-generating nightmare as she is. He's awfully judgmental about others' shortcomings considering his own flaws.

 

Bottom line is that Greg doesn't have the high ground here. Rebecca and Greg are both (in the words of the great Charlie Murphy) habitual line steppers. Greg is well within his rights to feel offended at being used, but he is just as much of a boundary-ignoring drama queen as Rebecca, so to make a big show of pulling back from Rebecca's horror show of the moment and asserting boundaries rather than sucking it up, taking his offended feelings out of the equation, and dealing with Rebecca's pain as any compassionate human being uninterested in fucking her would (and as Rebecca once did for him in 1x06 despite him ignoring her boundaries on that occasion) was extremely hypocritical.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[wayne67]

Bottom line is that Greg doesn't have the high ground here. Rebecca and Greg are both (in the words of the great Charlie Murphy) habitual line steppers. Greg is well within his rights to feel offended at being used, but he is just as much of a boundary-ignoring drama queen as Rebecca, so to make a big show of pulling back from Rebecca's horror show of the moment and asserting boundaries rather than sucking it up, taking his offended feelings out of the equation, and dealing with Rebecca's pain as any compassionate human being uninterested in fucking her would (and as Rebecca once did for him in 1x06 despite him ignoring her boundaries on that occasion) was extremely hypocritical.

 

Greg is snarky and often insensitive to how his attitude affects people while Rebecca ditched her job, moved, bought a place all to stalk her ex boyfriend. In this episode alone she trespassed, commissioned a crime of vandalism, lied, lied some more, lied to a police officer and dumped out all her emotional baggage to a delivery boy. Greg probably does have the higher ground. He may be a foolish narcissist but I don't remember him committing any crimes or engaging in elaborate antics just to get Rebecca's attention. 

 

I don't see any reason why Greg should have to tolerate Rebecca's self indulgent self loathing. Especially as she has at least one of those moments a week. Usually resulted from a failed scheme to get Josh's attention and she never learns anything from it. 

[Irlandesa]

Bottom line is that Greg doesn't have the high ground here.

But I didn't think we were debating high ground or moral high ground, just whether or not it was fair/unfair to assert boundaries in that moment. Greg leaving was his equivalent of Rebecca's "stupid bitch" song.  He realized what was going on. He realized a pattern in himself that he, at least at this time, wanted to try to move away from. 

 

Just because Rebecca is incapable of setting boundaries (and oh goodness is she incapable) doesn't mean it's unfair of Greg to try to impose them on himself whether or not it works.   And I'd argue Rebecca has the same right. I think they ALL have the same rights to do so and probably should.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Irlandesa

[Eyes High]

But I didn't think we were debating high ground or moral high ground, just whether or not it was fair/unfair to assert boundaries in that moment. Greg leaving was his equivalent of Rebecca's "stupid bitch" song.  He realized what was going on. He realized a pattern in himself that he, at least at this time, wanted to try to move away from. 

 

Just because Rebecca is incapable of setting boundaries (and oh goodness is she incapable) doesn't mean it's unfair of Greg to try to impose them on himself whether or not it works.   And I'd argue Rebecca has the same right. I think they ALL have the same rights to do so and probably should.

 

Of course they both have the right, but Rebecca chose not to enforce that "right" in 1x06 and Greg refused to do the same for her. She provided help and support to him but he wouldn't do the same for her.

 

Moreover, a close reading of that 1x11 conversation suggests that Greg realizing that Rebecca is a toxic black hole of drama and dysfunction isn't the reason he storms out on her. For starters, he already knew Rebecca was a toxic black hole before 1x11 (thus his supposed "avoidance" of her which is really no avoidance at all), and even knowing that Rebecca is a walking, talking shitshow, he was initially ready to coddle and soothe her. Rebecca being bad news is not news to him--in fact, he seems to be the only one apart from Valencia who truly understands how awful she can be--but he was still ready to drop everything and comfort her. He only turned his back on her when three things happened: he realized that Josh was involved, he grokked that his own too-quick reaction betrayed his own feelings for Rebecca, and Rebecca was unable to convince him that she wanted him specifically there as opposed to "someone."

 

Basically, Greg's butthurt that he still wants to fuck her and that she's still uninterested in fucking him; that's why the kicker was when Rebecca blurted out that she needed someone (or words to that effect) and he repeated bitterly "Someone" (i.e. not Greg specifically). And while he's entitled to be mad at the universe about that essential truth, since uncontrollable unrequited feelings are the woooooorst, he's not entitled to be mad at Rebecca. She's not responsible for his feelings, and I think we can acquit Rebecca (at least since the pilot makeout session) of leading Greg on. Rebecca asserts in 1x11 to Greg that she's shown her lack of interest in Greg's love life "pretty consistently," and she's not wrong. It's not her fault that he still wants her. It's not her fault that she doesn't want him. Therefore, Greg using his ire at this reality as a basis to abandon someone in great emotional pain who, it's suggested, would otherwise receive his care and support were it not for said ire, is a shitty thing to do. This had nothing to do with Greg preserving his emotional health and everything to do with Greg taking out something that has very little to do with Rebecca--Greg's lingering unrequited interest in her--on Rebecca at the worst possible time.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[Irlandesa]

You keep comparing what Greg chose to do with what Rebecca chose not to do at Thanksgiving. I don't see them as comparable situations.

Greg knows she's a mess in general but he didn't realize that the situation he came into was a result of her messiness until he saw Josh had been there. Cold water. Slap in the face. Whatever. He realized he was doing things he shouldn't be doing because he's overly invested and because he's trying not to be so.

[PodcastTown]

I like Greg and Heather as a couple. They both have that snide/sarcastic tone running commentary going on for them. This show would rule if they do get Rebecca some help and she goes to a nut house and become the modern day Harley Quinn, lololol. Now we just gotta find her Joker. Could it be Daryl????

[SeanC]

Now we just gotta find her Joker. 

She's already in love with Mistah J.

[ToxicUnicorn]

I loved Greg's appearance and his short scene.  He and Rebecca have great chemistry and I am glad he figured out what was going and left.  I don't think he had any obligation to stay once he knew Josh was involved, or even another anonymous man.  He came to check that she was ok because of the broken door, which was reasonable.  He doesn't need to get involved with her love life.

 

As has been said, Paula and her husband's title song sequence was very sly and funhy.

 

I'll go against the grain : I hated "You Stupid Bitch".  I didn't much like "Sexy French Depression" either, but You Stupid Bitch was much more off-putting to me.  I guess I prefer it when the songs are supposed to be subversive and funny, not subversive and dark.

 

Textmergency, on the other hand, was a laugh riot, and completely turned me around.  Previously, I had only wanted to hear songs from Paula, Greg, Rebecca and Josh (roughly in that order), and have felt disappointed when songs didn't measure up to those incredible standards.  But Textmergency was such a goof ball parody - I loved it.

 

As for the plot, I'm glad Josh showed that he might be able to fire two neurons together at the end.  Interesting twist.

Edited February 14, 2016 by ToxicUnicorn

[jbrecken]

Cute little Ground Floor semi-reunion.

[PodcastTown]

"What is that like a penny?" I thought that line was funny. You know if Rebecca didn't direct her eyes on the rock bottom, Josh wouldn't have a clue where it came from. Or block his view so that he doesn't see the rock underneath the coffee table. Rebecca almost got away with that one. Then again it does have the word Ever on it. Ever might mean something later down the line. Like a metaphor. 

[SmithW6079]

I was disappointed by Father Brah this time. Loved him before, found him kind of useless this time. It's true his advice worked, but I didn't enjoy the scene where he delivered it.

At first I thought it was a different actor playing Father Brah. "Please, Mr. Brah was my father. I'm Father Brah."

[Rinaldo]

Cute little Ground Floor semi-reunion.

The interconnectedness continues this summer, as Ground Floor's star Skylar Astin co-stars with Santino Fontana in a limited run of an early Ashman-Menken musical.

[BooBear]

Greg's torch for Rebecca is realistic and very sad. He's smart enough to see that she's bad news, that she's not into him, that she's using him as a human security blanket, etc. etc., but not only can he not help himself, he knows that he can't help himself. He tries to steer clear of Rebecca but winds up getting sucked back in. It's got to be an incredibly frustrating situation for him, since he sees himself as smart and above the other people whose foibles he mocks, to realize that he's as blind and vulnerable as the rest of them.

 

The irony I think is that if Greg ever let his guard down for a second I think Rebecca would fall for him.  I think she isn't in love with Josh but is attracted to his non jaded sort of doofus goodness. Greg I think has some of that but seems to feel, especially around Rebecca, that he has to show how smart he is and above it all.

 

This was a great episode. I died laughing when everyone at the Arbitration(?) told her to go. Funny.

 

The only problem I have with the show is it is starting to feel like a stall. I think they need to start wrapping it up. Something has to happen. I would like for Josh to realize that he and Valencia aren't a good match due to Rebecca but also realize Rebecca and he aren't a good match and she has been pretending to be someone she isn't for a while. Josh needs to find someone who really is like Rebecca has been pretending to be.  I do actually fear for Rebecca once she either realizes Josh isn't the love of her life or Josh tells her "no". Imagine her realizing how far the rabbit hole she has gone? I do think at least a few episodes of the show should be set in a mental health institution.

Edited February 15, 2016 by BooBear

[Eyes High]

The irony I think is that if Greg ever let his guard down for a second I think Rebecca would fall for him.  I think she isn't in love with Josh but is attracted to his non jaded sort of doofus goodness. Greg I think has some of that but seems to feel, especially around Rebecca, that he has to show how smart he is and above it all.

 

I don't think Rebecca has ever shown any indication that she's attracted to Greg. That could change, of course, but that spark needs to be there if anything further on that front is going to happen. I think the actors have a lot of chemistry, but there is nothing in the show that I've seen to suggest that Rebecca sees Greg as anything but a friend. Whether that's because she's so dazzled by Josh that she can't feel anything else, or whether it's because she's just not attracted to Greg and wouldn't be attracted to him even in a Joshless universe, is unclear at this point, but I'm not seeing any attraction.

 

I think Greg was willing to be vulnerable with Rebecca at one point--his pained admission in 1x01 that "I really need [this hookup]," his confiding in her about not wanting to abandon his dad in 1x06--but I agree that he's gone into self-protective mode with her, not surprising given how she's behaved. He only abandoned the self-protective stance instinctively when he saw Rebecca in pain and wound up kicking himself as a result. For all of Greg's snark and frequently callous behaviour towards others, he seems like a pretty sensitive person, and my sense is that he's been bruised one too many times by Rebecca's thoughtlessness.

 

The funny thing is that the further we get into this season, the clearer the parallels between Greg and Rebecca seem to be. In fact, in many respects they're more or less the same person. Smart? Check. Lonely? Check. Self-hating? Check. Callous and hurtful towards others? Check and check. Selfish, dramatic and weird? Check, check, and check. Chasing an unavailable person at least partly out of low self-esteem? Check. While Greg has handled his attraction to Rebecca better than Rebecca has been dealing with her crush on Josh, I can only imagine the sorts of shenanigans Greg would be getting up to if he had the equivalent of Paula constantly egging him on.

 

I guess the promising thing is that despite having moments of passive aggressiveness with Rebecca, Greg is pretty open with Rebecca. When he's mad at her in 1x05, he marches up to her and calls her out for being a liar and a terrible person. When he's mad in 1x11, he explains why he's angry instead of sulking or storming off in a huff. Similarly, because Rebecca doesn't care about Greg as a romantic prospect, she's not concerned about putting on a facade of perfection with him; she's also okay with him knowing what a trainwreck she is (as long as he doesn't think that she's a bad person), as opposed to trying to conceal the truth from Josh about herself at all costs. If they do enter into a relationship at some point, that sort of openness could go a long way.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[PodcastTown]

Josh kinda reminds me of an A.C Slater for some reason. This show is like a mix of Saved By The Bell meets Archie. Not sure if Rebecca has any feelings towards Greg now since she did say she didn't show any interest or care for him and Heather dating.  If this show is lucky enough to get a couple of seasons under her belt maybe I can see Rebecca and Greg a thang?? The main focus now for sure is to quench Josh. Once they do that story-line I can see the show runners coming up with something else new down the line? Maybe a new crush or introducing new characters. Again, it's early in the season so anything can happen but I don't think Greg and Rebecca will be a thang as of now.

[Eyes High]

Josh kinda reminds me of an A.C Slater for some reason. This show is like a mix of Saved By The Bell meets Archie. Not sure if Rebecca has any feelings towards Greg now since she did say she didn't show any interest or care for him and Heather dating.  If this show is lucky enough to get a couple of seasons under her belt maybe I can see Rebecca and Greg a thang?? The main focus now for sure is to quench Josh. Once they do that story-line I can see the show runners coming up with something else new down the line? Maybe a new crush or introducing new characters. Again, it's early in the season so anything can happen but I don't think Greg and Rebecca will be a thang as of now.

 

Cynically, the show will be cancelled long before Rebecca reciprocates Greg's interest, if she ever does.

[PodcastTown]

^ yeah, that's possible. That is a bummer though, would love for the show success. It deservingly so. 

[BooBear]

I don't think Rebecca has ever shown any indication that she's attracted to Greg. That could change, of course, but that spark needs to be there if anything further on that front is going to happen. I think the actors have a lot of chemistry, but there is nothing in the show that I've seen to suggest that Rebecca sees Greg as anything but a friend.

 

Agreed. But I actually think Greg is much more her style but his ironic, negative, demeanor is something she just isn't interested in and that is all she sees when she looks at him. I am not even sure she sees Greg as a friend.  When Greg was having issues with his dad Rebecca seemed more interested. There is nothing about Greg right now that would interest her. I also think that Josh has her so interested that she can't see much else. If Greg is end game the show probably should have taken a Scott turn with him and have him decide to help Rebecca get Josh.

 

I don't necessarily feel like it is a bad thing that the show isn't doing well. I think it is best in a short contained story and should have been a mini series not a series. Also the time slot is brutal.  I have two other shows I want to watch in that spot.

Edited February 15, 2016 by BooBear

[Eyes High]

Agreed. But I actually think Greg is much more her style but his ironic, negative, demeanor is something she just isn't interested in and that is all she sees when she looks at him. I am not even sure she sees Greg as a friend.  When Greg was having issues with his dad Rebecca seemed more interested. There is nothing about Greg right now that would interest her. I also think that Josh has her so interested that she can't see much else. If Greg is end game the show probably should have taken a Scott turn with him and have him decide to help Rebecca get Josh.

 

I don't necessarily feel like it is a bad thing that the show isn't doing well. I think it is best in a short contained story and should have been a mini series not a series. Also the time slot is brutal.  I have two other shows I want to watch in that spot.

 

I think that if Rebecca were sexually attracted to Greg, his demeanour would be a significant obstacle to finding him attractive as a romantic partner. Greg is the walking, talking embodiment of "negative self-talk," aka that little voice in Rebecca's head that's pointing out how fucked-up and awful she is. (An Internet personality named Jay Smooth has called this voice the "little hater," which is a pretty good description.) He wonders what's wrong with Rebecca. He calls her a liar and a terrible person. He constantly makes jabs at other people's expense and doesn't exempt Rebecca from this, and these jabs have included remarks on her personal appearance that have been at best teasing (the joke about Rebecca being "portly") and at worst humiliating ("Bras are on aisle 2"). Rebecca's physical appearance is a sore spot with her, so I believe she would run away screaming at the prospect of dating someone who had made those comments, let alone getting naked with him. Now, clearly, Greg is in love with Rebecca in spite of his perceptiveness and his understanding of her issues, and whatever her shortcomings are, he still loves her, but I doubt that would soothe Rebecca's fears. From Rebecca's perspective, she hates herself enough already, so why seek assistance?

 

I think Rebecca and Greg can be pretty functional as friends; Rebecca can let Greg's teasing roll off her back as companionable shit talking. I think on a good day, Rebecca can take his behaviour and his perceptiveness in stride. On a bad day, though--and Rebecca has a lot of bad days--the last thing Rebecca would want is an intimate relationship with a person who is always holding up the mirror to how awful she is and who is always calling her out. I think what she would want is a relationship with someone who understands all her shortcomings but who deals with them with compassion and tact (something Greg has shown himself incapable of doing to date), or, failing that, someone who's too stupid to understand just how fucked up she is (aka Josh).

Edited February 16, 2016 by Eyes High

[PodcastTown]

 someone who's too stupid to understand just how fucked up she is (aka Josh).

 They were meant for each other.

[wayne67]

I'm curious would Rebecca be considered the feminine version of the Nice Guy phenomena that seems to be so popular to ridicule?

 

She has essentially been friendzoned and is constantly trying to make Josh like like her while passive aggressively undermining his current stable relationship because of her wants and desires with little to no regard for how that might effect Josh.

[SeanC]

I'm curious would Rebecca be considered the feminine version of the Nice Guy phenomena that seems to be so popular to ridicule?

 

She has essentially been friendzoned and is constantly trying to make Josh like like her while passive aggressively undermining his current stable relationship because of her wants and desires with little to no regard for how that might effect Josh.

Sort of, though I think the "Nice Guy" phenomenon is generally more about said person blaming the object of their affections for not loving them, which Rebecca hasn't done (if anything, the fact that Josh isn't falling in love with her just generates more self-loathing).  Though either way, Rebecca is portrayed as actually mentally ill, so we're not supposed to see her behavior as healthy (even aside from it being a comedy, where bad behavior isn't really assessed via the same standards as a drama).

[Eyes High]

I'm curious would Rebecca be considered the feminine version of the Nice Guy phenomena that seems to be so popular to ridicule?

 

She has essentially been friendzoned and is constantly trying to make Josh like like her while passive aggressively undermining his current stable relationship because of her wants and desires with little to no regard for how that might effect Josh.

 

There are a few different aspects to what's meant by "Nice Guy," but the most common one is the guy who gnashes his teeth over women who don't want him because he's supposedly so nice and who instead chase after "bad boys" who treat them badly. I don't think Rebecca has ever bewailed Josh chasing after hot, mean Valencia instead of falling for her kindness instead. Rebecca completely gets why Josh is into Valencia and doesn't resent him for it.

 

However, another aspect of the whole Nice Guy thing is the guy who befriends a girl hoping that she'll fall in love with him and does all manner of "friendly" things hoping to worm his way into her affections with the plausible deniability of friendship, rather than asking her out in a straightforward way and risking rejection. It's not so much a guy falling in love with his friend, which happens all the time, or a guy pining for his friend but 100% happy with the friendship, which also happens all the time, but a guy "befriending" someone while harbouring a secret agenda of getting them to fall in love with him, and using the closeness of that "friendship" as a pretense to put the moves on that person. It's extremely dishonest and manipulative. Good rundown here. This is more or less what Rebecca is doing, and while it's reprehensible, Rebecca is mentally ill and no role model. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Eyes High

[SmithW6079]

I don't think Rebecca has ever shown any indication that she's attracted to Greg. That could change, of course, but that spark needs to be there if anything further on that front is going to happen. I think the actors have a lot of chemistry, but there is nothing in the show that I've seen to suggest that Rebecca sees Greg as anything but a friend. Whether that's because she's so dazzled by Josh that she can't feel anything else, or whether it's because she's just not attracted to Greg and wouldn't be attracted to him even in a Joshless universe, is unclear at this point, but I'm not seeing any attraction

 

Didn't they go on a date together? And they were having a good time, until Rebecca panicked that it wasn't Josh she was having fun with, so she picked up some random dude, left Greg in the middle of the date, and screwed surfer dude back at her apartment.

 

I'm really having problems with rooting for Rebecca on any level. I don't find embarrassment or humiliation humor remotely funny, so I cringe every time she gets into one of her constant predicaments that arise because of her own doing.

 

Also, how pathetic is it that Paula and her husband boned over their over-involvement in Rebecca's fucked-up love life?

[PodcastTown]

 

Also, how pathetic is it that Paula and her husband boned over their over-involvement in Rebecca's fucked-up love life?

 

   That is an interesting way of putting it. I guess that is the joke? It's funny, but very dark. I liked that about the show so far. 

[Eyes High]

Didn't they go on a date together? And they were having a good time, until Rebecca panicked that it wasn't Josh she was having fun with, so she picked up some random dude, left Greg in the middle of the date, and screwed surfer dude back at her apartment.

 

I'm really having problems with rooting for Rebecca on any level. I don't find embarrassment or humiliation humor remotely funny, so I cringe every time she gets into one of her constant predicaments that arise because of her own doing.

 

Also, how pathetic is it that Paula and her husband boned over their over-involvement in Rebecca's fucked-up love life?

 

Rebecca went on the date not because she was attracted to Greg but because she was in the middle of a (short-lived, as it turned out) "healthy choices" kick. Even the "Settle For Me" number ended with a decidedly mixed "Eh" from Rebecca. I may be mistaken on this, but I cannot remember one instance where Rebecca has ever suggested that she found Greg attractive in the abstract, let alone attractive to her. I guess you could argue that she wouldn't have gone on the date if she didn't feel at least some small amount of attraction towards him, but I don't think there's anything in the show to suggest that she feels that way. As for the date, yes, they did have a good time, but essentially, at that point in the date they were just hanging out in platonic fashion, something Rebecca has done with Greg on several occasions without feeling any sparks.

 

I think the mere fact that Rebecca let Greg see her and spend time with her in 1x06 when she was in sweats, with no makeup, with fucked-up hair, and supposedly looking like shit, and that she showed no hint of self-consciousness or embarrassment about him seeing her like that, was another strong indication that she doesn't have any feelings of attraction towards him, at least at present. She would never (willingly, anyway) allow Josh to see her that way. Obviously, it would be different if Greg and Rebecca were in an established, long-term relationship, where people tend to ditch the primping, but they're not. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Eyes High

[wayne67]

There are a few different aspects to what's meant by "Nice Guy," but the most common one is the guy who gnashes his teeth over women who don't want him because he's supposedly so nice and who instead chase after "bad boys" who treat them badly. I don't think Rebecca has ever bewailed Josh chasing after hot, mean Valencia instead of falling for her kindness instead. Rebecca completely gets why Josh is into Valencia and doesn't resent him for it.

 

I'd imagine if you were a relatively nice person and saw someone going out with a complete asshole you'd wonder why they were interested in that person when they could be in a relationship with someone who wanted and treated them well. 

Of course this is all conjecture for me since I openly ask people whether they want to hook up and if they reject me I'm like "ok that's cool. Have a good one" and off I go. Sometimes I get annoyed if someone rejects me in a particularly mean or condescending way, especially in bars where the expectation is to get drunk and hook up and people act like that's a foreign concept to them. It's so disingenuous but that's life. Some people are just going to be unnecessarily stupid or frustrating. 

 

Though in highschool I did pine from afar for both a boy and girl (weird time highschool) and I didn't act on either of those because one was a apparently straight boy and the other was in a relationship with some guy and back then I was socially awkward (or more so than now). I didn't have a low opinion of her for dating some one else, it was just inconvenient for me and her bf seemed fairly decent so I didn't really have any objections to them dating. It was just kind of unpleasant to watch sometimes when they got lovey dovey and it sent little daggers into my feels. Lol adolescence.

 

Personally I think there's a fine line from unrequited longing and being a creepy stalker who intentionally invades someone's life in order to manipulate them into liking them. Rebecca is so over that line, if she was a man she'd be openly vilified for stalking Josh.

 

P.s Loved the comic, it was a good way of describing how some people take advantage of others through manipulation instead of engaging in healthy adult behaviors like open and honest communication.

Edited February 16, 2016 by wayne67

[SmithW6079]

That is an interesting way of putting it. I guess that is the joke? It's funny, but very dark. I liked that about the show so far.

Actually, that should have been "bonded," but "boned" kind of works too. Oops.

[Eolivet]

Basically, Greg's butthurt that he still wants to fuck her and that she's still uninterested in fucking him; that's why the kicker was when Rebecca blurted out that she needed someone (or words to that effect) and he repeated bitterly "Someone" (i.e. not Greg specifically). And while he's entitled to be mad at the universe about that essential truth, since uncontrollable unrequited feelings are the woooooorst, he's not entitled to be mad at Rebecca. She's not responsible for his feelings, and I think we can acquit Rebecca (at least since the pilot makeout session) of leading Greg on. Rebecca asserts in 1x11 to Greg that she's shown her lack of interest in Greg's love life "pretty consistently," and she's not wrong. It's not her fault that he still wants her. It's not her fault that she doesn't want him.

 

Bingo. I absolutely cringed at the scene described above because I don't get it. Why every Rebecca/Greg scene has an air of "Aww, poor Greg -- Rebecca still doesn't like him that way." Rebecca is the protagonist here, not him. Who cares what he thinks? This fabulously feminist musical should (in my mind) be celebrating loudly the idea women sometimes just don't like certain men. No matter how many times he comes to her rescue. Nor are they obligated to do so.

 

This is why I will seriously side-eye the show if Greg and Rebecca do get together. Because this is a feminist show and nothing would make me happier than tearing down the trope of "She's not interested in me now, but she'll come around." No. Sometimes, women don't have romantic feelings for a guy at first and even many months and boyfriends later, still don't have romantic feelings for a guy. Guys don't get women as prizes for their patience (contrary to the entire HIMYM finale).

 

It's funny -- when I see Rebecca and Josh, I feel like I'm watching this cool, groundbreaking comedy, but Rebecca/Greg feels like Every Sitcom Plot for the Last 20 Years. I'm over it. I want something new. I wish they would cut bait with Rebecca/Greg once and for all. It's so tired, so old and this show could do so much better.

[dubbel zout]

This fabulously feminist musical

 

Rebecca basically rearranged her entire life because of a decades-old crush on Josh. That's not feminist, IMO.

[Eolivet]

Sure it is, if one goes by the theory (pretty well supported by the show) that she did all that because her mental health is slightly suspect -- a literal deconstruction of the phrase "crazy ex-girlfriend."

 

Rebecca is crazy not because "bitches be crazy," but "crazy" in the sense of mental health issues. Making the crazy ex-girlfriend the hero of the piece? Delving into her personality, examining what makes her "crazy?" Doesn't seem to happen too often (or at least not on the shows I watch).

 

That's tearing down tropes about certain types of women and redefining them, and thus, very feminist in my eyes.

[Irlandesa]

Rebecca is crazy not because "bitches be crazy," but "crazy" in the sense of mental health issues. Making the crazy ex-girlfriend the hero of the piece? Delving into her personality, examining what makes her "crazy?" Doesn't seem to happen too often (or at least not on the shows I watch).

See, I think this is a feminist show precisely because I don't think Rebecca is the hero.  She's the protagonist, definitely, but not the hero.  The show isn't afraid to let her be wrong and wallow in that wrongness.  It isn't afraid to let her be her own worst enemy. 

 

It's interesting because where you see Josh and Rebecca as a "groundbreaking" comedy, I see Felicity. While male to female unrequited love is certainly common to TV, female-to-male unrequited love has been around quite a while as well.  Perhaps more on soaps than sitcoms but it's why I don't particularly think it feels fresh.

 

There are certainly people out there who expect Greg to be end game based on the beginning of the series but there are also quite a few people out there who think Rebecca's end game to be Josh because the story is being told from the POV of Rebecca even though she's kind of stalking him.

[Eyes High]

Bingo. I absolutely cringed at the scene described above because I don't get it. Why every Rebecca/Greg scene has an air of "Aww, poor Greg -- Rebecca still doesn't like him that way." Rebecca is the protagonist here, not him. Who cares what he thinks?

 

The show wants us to care about what Greg thinks and feels; the show after all has gone out of its way to make Greg a sympathetic, even noble character (cue the sick dad for whom Greg sacrifices his dreams without making a fuss about it...I mean, really). He also appears to be an actual person as opposed to the cartoonish Valencia and Josh. Also, just as a general thing, it sucks when the one you can't stop wanting doesn't want you back; that alone makes Greg's plight inherently sympathetic and compelling, since we've all been there at one point or another. And, being familiar with that parade of fictional guys and girls who are pining helplessly after someone who doesn't love them back, I'd say Greg handles it better than many of them have. He could always be better--I was unimpressed with him stomping out on a distressed Rebecca out of pique at his own lingering feelings in this episode--but overall, he's not so terrible.

 

 

This fabulously feminist musical should (in my mind) be celebrating loudly the idea women sometimes just don't like certain men. No matter how many times he comes to her rescue. Nor are they obligated to do so.

This "fabulously feminist" show has its lead doing deeply unfeminist things, all the time (usually while going on and on about how feminist her unfeminist actions are, but that's another matter altogether). I do think the show has come down firmly against Rebecca dating Greg just because he's there and not a bad person (thus "Settle For Me"), but I don't think that rules out some sort of genuine connection down the road should she develop a romantic attraction to him. And while it's true that sometimes women just aren't into certain guys, no matter how "nice" said guys are to them, it's also true that sometimes people see people in a romantic light after only seeing them as friends for a long time...not because of overwhelming gratitude for their niceness, but because they see them as attractive when they didn't before. Happened to me. Happens to a lot of people. And if that happens to happen to Rebecca, I don't see anything sexist or retrograde about it, since she'll be with Greg not out of gratitude because he's so "nice" or because he's "always there" when she needs him--something she's rejected pretty definitively--but because she wants him and only him. Greg also seems to be getting closer to rejecting Rebecca unless she 100% wants him and not someone else, and that's promising. In summary, I don't think a "Settle For Me" scenario is going to happen with Greg and Rebecca; if Rebecca does get together with Greg, it will be because she wants him and because he believes that she wants him and not Josh, not because Greg wore her down with dogged devotion.

 

 

This is why I will seriously side-eye the show if Greg and Rebecca do get together. Because this is a feminist show and nothing would make me happier than tearing down the trope of "She's not interested in me now, but she'll come around." No. Sometimes, women don't have romantic feelings for a guy at first and even many months and boyfriends later, still don't have romantic feelings for a guy.

I agree that the trope of "girl is worn down into loving a guy she didn't care for by the dogged devotion of said guy and his endless Feats of Niceness" is sexist. It devalues the importance of women's sexuality by ignoring women's own desires in favour of the idea of men being entitled to their woman of choice by virtue of their "niceness" to said woman. However, sometimes people do see people they'd only ever seen as friends as potential romantic partners. Not because they've been worn down by their suitor's determined "niceness," but because they begin to see a friend in a romantic light and form an attraction where there wasn't one before. There's nothing sexist or unfeminist about depicting that kind of story. That kind of story happens all the time, to people of both sexes.

 

Not to say that Greg/Rebecca will play out in this way, since Rebecca would have to form an attraction to Greg first, and that certainly hasn't happened yet, but that if it were to play out in that way, I don't see that there would be anything offensive in it.

 

It's funny -- when I see Rebecca and Josh, I feel like I'm watching this cool, groundbreaking comedy

Josh is a groundbreaking TV character, as an Asian bro male romantic lead. Other than that, there's nothing cool or groundbreaking about the premise of this show. It's pretty much Felicity mixed with any number of fish out of water shows (Hart of Dixie bears a strong resemblance to Crazy Ex-Girlfriend).

 

Rebecca/Greg feels like Every Sitcom Plot for the Last 20 Years

The problem is that Greg and Rebecca feel like the only real people on the show. They are not particularly original characters in many respects. Rebecca's Neurotic Professional Seeking a Simpler Life shtick has been done, done, done; the only novel aspect is that the character is canonically mentally ill. Similarly, Greg's Sensitive Bartender With Commitment Issues And a Fucked-Up Family type has also been done to death, most recently on Hart of Dixie. With that said, they have depth that the other characters just do not have; they have complicated inner lives and are painfully aware of their issues. As for the rest, it's two dimensions all the way. Heather is a cartoon. Valencia is a cartoon. Paula is a cartoon. Worst of all, Josh is a cartoon. How can I root for a pairing between a cartoon and a character who appears to be a real, flawed, human being? Josh/Rebecca might be "groundbreaking," but there's nothing interesting or exciting about it; instead, it seems forced and bizarre.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Eyes High