Sleepy Hollow in the Media

[orza]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Also, isn't TM taking a reduced workload this season?  So no Abbie and a reduced TM presence.  How do they think anyone is going to watch this show?

Where are you getting that from? The original article to mention that, published minutes after the finale aired, stated  "Sources say Mison is in the midst of renegotiating his contract for season four after the actor successfully negotiated a reduced workload in season three".

Since FOX is banking on Tom to carry the show on his own as the sole star, he's probably negotiating for more money this time around. That would be the expected and reasonable response to the changed situation. It is not stated nor implied that he is looking to further reduce his workload.

I dunno, I believe what Eric Heisserer posted is pretty accurate. Working in television is very different from working in movies, It wouldn't be the first time that someone was enticed to a new job with lots of money and a big prospects only to realize 3 or 4 months in that it was a huge mistake. It happens to lots of people at least once in their careers.

Some actors whose only experience is working for short stretches of maybe 4 to 8 weeks on a movie and then having weeks or months free before the next project starts filming may find it difficult to adjust to the daily grind of TV production. For them working in movies may be just as much about the working environment and lifestyle as the money and fame.

Why are fans with no insider knowledge so sure that expanding the role of another cast member was the cause of Nicole's unhappiness and not a response to Nicole's requests for a lighter workload?

[catrox14]

They can say their hand was forced all they like but if she wanted a month or less to shoot a film, they could have written her into Purgatory and STILL had Ichabod working with Jenny and Frank etc etc to get her out WITHOUT pushing the Crane family drama, leaving open for Nicole to return when the film was over.

What I find so interesting is that the spin cycle completely ignores what IMO is the majority of viewers complaints about Abbie's demise. I seriously doubt that most viewers even care why Nicole left because they are not interested in the BTS stuff. They cared about Abbie Mills and they are PISSED because of the way her exit was handled ON SCREEN. They are pissed at Abbie's mission being retconned to being Ichabod's helpmeet when she had always been his EQUAL if not better than him because hello she was already a smart cop.

I'm so over the "Oh viewers. You silly gooses. Stop being upset with us. Nicole wanted to leave. We HAD to write her horrible exit this way. We had no other choice because she wanted to leave."

Screw that. I'm not a professional writer and I can come up 20 different ways to give Abbie a beautiful, emotional, meaningful swan song that left Abbie's legacy FULLY intact and leaves Ichabod carrying the banner for the Witnesses. 

I do not understand why this is so hard to understand that is what IMO the casual viewer is upset about.

And for the rest of those of us who are interested in the BTS shenanigans, why on Earth would I trust Fox's version or even the writers and showrunners when Fox has already shown what it thinks about the female actors on it's network even the likes of Gillian Anderson, Ms Dana Fucking Scully, is only being offered HALF, literally 50% of the salary Duchovny was being offered for the XFiles Revival. I remember reading a lot of rumors that Anderson was hesitant to sign on because she didn't want to return to Dana Fucking Scully or that her and Duchovny still hated each other, blah blah blah, when the Truth Was Out There that she was not going to accept half the pay when she was of equal importance to the show. 

For me, if they will try to fuck over Dana Fucking Scully, why would I believe their version of events with Nicole? And even IF I believed, which I DO NOT that Nicole was a diva, there is NO excuse for the writers disrespecting Abbie Mills the character just to punish the actor.

[bobbysgurl]

I don't know what was said or is being said at FOX, but I do know what was presented to me on screen.  They screwed over NB, Abbie Mills, and the Ichabbie fandom.  Let me put this out there for those of you who don't know:  I was for Ichabbie, Abbie and Crane, together on screen.  It didn't matter if it was romantic or not, I just wanted NB and TM on screen as equals.

I'm not going to hate on TM, because I like the actor, and because NONE of us knows what happened behind closed doors at FOX.

If SH tanks, and I truly hope it does, NO ONE has the right to point the finger at NB, not FOX and not TM fans.  It wasn't her fault the show was losing ground and it is not up to her true fans to support SH so that it can stay on the air.

NB had no power on that show.  If she had, she'd still be there.

What FOX is spewing and what we saw happen on our TV screens week after week are butting heads.  FOX is still asking us to participate in their BS.  Ooh ooh!  They wanted a diverse cast, well we'll keep Lance, Lyndie, and Sophia.  I'm still not interested.  Ooh, ooh!  We'll send Crane off to research the origins of the Witnesses.  I'm still not interested.  Ooh, oooh!  We'll update Crane's appearance.  Once you take Crane out of his 1700's garb, cut his hair even shorter, and shave his beard, you no longer have Ichabod Crane.  What you'll have is a clone of every other male lead in every other show on TV.

 I wasn't pretending to like NB/AM, I was and am total trash.  You don't even have to watch SH to know how women, especially WOC, are treated in this patriarchal society.  It is shameful.

The only power I have in this crap is to not watch SH.  It is my way of plucking my eyes out to that which offends me.

[cynic]

Eric Heisserer didn't work for Sleepy Hollow. (He doesn't generally work in tv.) So, his information isn't first-hand. He probably is getting whatever information he does have from gossip from other writers, which they may not even be getting first hand. Even if he heard it from Metzner himself, that doesn't mean he knows the whole story. He got one guy's side and of course, he's sympathetic to the writer's side. He is probably not privy to, nor likely cares about, the stuff the led up to Beharie wanting out of her contract. I doubt any Sleepy writers were like, "Hey Eric, we treated Beharie like crap for two years and then she got fed up and wanted out, which put a real crimp on us." And honestly, the guy seems to be whiner who casts writers as these poor victims while everyone else is behaving badly. His skirmish with Mo Ryan is pretty telling.

Also, his hypotheticals could be an amalgam of different incidents. He does say he is talking about four shows that this has happened to. Who knows what is really true?

But yeah, none of us, not anyone here, knows what went down at Sleepy Hollow. All we really know is what happened on our screens and how people comported themselves in public. From what I saw, I don't blame her for wanting to leave after seasons 1b and 2 and I don't blame them for writing around her in 3 (though I do blame them for the helper BS at her death and the overall dullness). However, if this leak is coming from them, I think they are classless individuals. 

[bobbysgurl]

^^^^Totally agree.^^^

[Neurochick]

On 5/14/2016 at 1:27 AM, corinne said:

I for one am glad this show wasn't cancelled. There are plenty of people who depend on the paycheck it provides. 

Though I understand this comment, it annoys me because it's like, "So fucking what if a show is racist and sexist, it's more important for people to get their paychecks."

If writers are talented, there are a million ways to write off a character.  This shit screams of the Person of Interest crap.  It's as if someone feels, "we really, really, want to get rid of this brown skinned black woman, so we'll make sure she'll NEVER be able to come back."  That's what annoys me.

I won't be watching next season.  Dear Fox, this is why folks watch "reality" TV.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Neurochick

[Badsamaritan]

I don't believe a word from FOX. Look how they treated Orlando Jones, by far their biggest cheerleader. And the fact that he has still been supporting Nicole tells me he knows what the fuck really happened. They didn't ask her to do S2 DVD commentary; she had to ask them to follow her on Twitter; and perhaps the most damning for me is in regards to the interview she gave about being invited to a London con and was so overwhelmed by the fact her event was sold out because THEY TOLD HER TOM WAS THE STAR, THAT IT WOULDN'T WORK WITHOUT HIM. Try being told and SHOWN constantly that you are less than by your bosses. I've been in that position, and hell yeah I wanted to get the fuck up through. 

And Dana Walden, the character of Ichabod Crane has been played by eleventy-three other actors in film and on TV. The ONLY thing about this shit show that was different was ABBIE MILLS. Now SH is basically Lucifer, with a tall, British white guy as the lead character. Again, WHAT THE FUCK IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THAT?? 

I am still super pissed. And yes, I am identifying with NB as a Black woman, and as someone who has experienced similar discrimination. So I recognize the spin and code words these bitches are spouting. And you know what? IT MATTERS. So fuck you FOX, SH, Dana Walden and who the fuck ever else EVER made NB feel less than. I'm a Nielsen family, and my Friday at 9 pm viewing will go anywhere else BUT this mutha fuckin show. 

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, Badsamaritan said:

I am still super pissed. And yes, I am identifying with NB as a Black woman, and as someone who has experienced similar discrimination. So I recognize the spin and code words these bitches are spouting. And you know what? IT MATTERS. So fuck you FOX, SH, Dana Walden and who the fuck ever else EVER made NB feel less than. I'm a Nielsen family, and my Friday at 9 pm viewing will go anywhere else BUT this mutha fuckin show. 

This is how I feel as well.  I am a Black woman and I get the spin and the bullshit Fox is selling.  Their bullshit is just that, bullshit; the proof is in the pudding, look what they did in season 2 when they practically made Abbie Mills a guest star when she was supposed to be a lead and wanted to change it to "The Katrina Show."  That tells me everything I want to know about the show runners. 

So I will not be watching and I too am one of those Nielsen people. 

"Deuces!"

Edited May 18, 2016 by Neurochick

[cynic]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Though I understand this comment, it annoys me because it's like, "So fucking what if a show is racist and sexist, it's more important for people to get their paychecks."

.....

Even when we're not dealing with a situation like SH ( or for the people who don't see the issues with the show), the jobs argument always gives me pause. While I don't want to see people out of work, that's the nature of the beast. Shows get cancelled. They get cancelled or just end all the time for a myriad of reasons. You can't keep shows on the air simply because people will lose their jobs. And anyone who doesn't understand the lack of job security and will be devastated by the loss probably shouldn't choose to work in this industry. I can't feel bad for not supporting a bad show because "jobs". And besides, every show that ends is replaced by another show that provides other people (or perhaps, even the same people) jobs. 

[bobbysgurl]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Though I understand this comment, it annoys me because it's like, "So fucking what if a show is racist and sexist, it's more important for people to get their paychecks."

If writers are talented, there are a million ways to write off a character.  This shit screams of the Person of Interest crap.  It's as if someone feels, "we really, really, want to get rid of this brown skinned black woman, so we'll make sure she'll NEVER be able to come back."  That's what annoys me.

I won't be watching next season.  Dear Fox, this is why folks watch "reality" TV.

 

Exactly.  TPH left POI for movies was CBS' spin.  Shortly thereafter, she landed the female lead on Empire.  WGN America is promoting the hell out of POI using TPH in a lot of their promos.

I started watching POI for Taraji, and I left when they killed her off and offered up a lame excuse for doing so.

No one in their right mind would willingly give up a steady paycheck (a tv series) for an iffy paycheck (movies), unless their circumstances were so unbearable that they would do it in a heartbeat to save their sanity.  If you know someone is shitting on you and you know that they know it, what do you do?  When you know there is no win for you no matter what you do, what do you do?  If you know the only thing you have left in the situation is your dignity, what do you do?  Sometimes you have to burn a bridge or two, and cut your losses.

The old adage, If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything, is so apropos. If you don't understand and cannot empathize with what POC really go through in this country try not to minimalize it or trivialize it.

[C76]

21 hours ago, cynic said:

Eric Heisserer didn't work for Sleepy Hollow. (He doesn't generally work in tv.) So, his information isn't first-hand. He probably is getting whatever information he does have from gossip from other writers, which they may not even be getting first hand. Even if he heard it from Metzner himself, that doesn't mean he knows the whole story. He got one guy's side and of course, he's sympathetic to the writer's side. He is probably not privy to, nor likely cares about, the stuff the led up to Beharie wanting out of her contract. I doubt any Sleepy writers were like, "Hey Eric, we treated Beharie like crap for two years and then she got fed up and wanted out, which put a real crimp on us." And honestly, the guy seems to be whiner who casts writers as these poor victims while everyone else is behaving badly. His skirmish with Mo Ryan is pretty telling.

Also, his hypotheticals could be an amalgam of different incidents. He does say he is talking about four shows that this has happened to. Who knows what is really true?

On 5/17/2016 at 8:29 AM, Watermelon said:

I think most fans believe Beharie wanted to leave. I think where fans and SH Staff don't meet is WHY she wanted to leave in the first place. 

They almost want fans to believe Nicole just had a change of heart about TV work, when it seems fairly clear to me the writing was shitty and shunted her away from being the lead. Of course she wouldn't want to stay.  But even her leaving has nothing to do with why they wrote her death so shittily. Soooo long story not so long, "Nicole wanted to leave" is not an excuse for, "Abbie's only purpose was to support Ichabod. She's totes replaceable". 

 

I don't believe in, "She wanted her movie career" personally. NO SHADE, but this Jacob's Ladder remake is not the thing to hang a hat on.  It sounds one step up from direct to dvd, if I'm honest.  It would seem to me, that barring extenuating circumstances, tv stars like to stay on TV. They negotiate to get their  time off for other projects, but they like those checks. Not to mention, if it goes to syndication? Checks on checks on checks. Which actors like to have.

 

For some reason my quote format is a mess. 

The first thing I wanted to comment on is Heisserer. Unless someone is hiding their connections, none of us knows who he knows in the industry, and consequently, what he knows. One thing that made me do a double take is that I've seen people who have worked on SH compliment him for his rant.

Which I know, means nothing. :/ I keep going in circles.

Being upset over SH has broken me. I wish NB the best no matter what really happened. However, I'm tired of getting worked up over things that I'm not absolutely certain of.

Secondly, regarding the "movie career" excuse. 

Actors decide to leave successful shows all the time. Years ago before CSI: Miami, David Caruso left NYPD: Blue to do movies. He'd had great success on NYPD, and wanted a change. I know he worked on projects between those 2 shows, but I don't have any memory of him as a major "movie star".

Their reasons are varied: Some actors always wanted to do movies, others think that their success on TV will translate to the big screen. Watermelon, I understand your logic. But an actor leaving a TV show simply because they think they'll do better in film isn't unheard of. 

[cynic]

David Caruso was a different situation. He was a highly buzzed about actor on a hit show and thought he could parlay that popularity into a huge movie career. He was wrong and quickly became an object lesson for other actors to not suffer from such hubris. He was raked over the coals by the media and in the public eye and his career took years to recover. If anything, stories like Caruso should illustrate why actors would be hesistant to give up a good thing, especially if they need to burn bridges to do so. This would be especially true for a non-biracial black actress with an atypical body for Hollywood and non Euro-centric conforming features. There's already a dearth of good roles for someone like that and biting the hand that feeds her would only make things harder. I doubt that it was a decision that she took lightly. 

[bobbysgurl]

As hard as it is to come by roles in this industry, a WOC would not leave a job like the one that NB had, the female lead in SH.  It was after the contracts were signed and SH was getting ready to go into its second year that NB fully realized what she had gotten into, IMO.

NB didn't leave  SH to return to movies.  She was ecstatic over the job at SH.  Every interview she did attested to it.

I've been on this planet long enough to know when someone has been royally shafted.  NB didn't deserve the way she was treated by TPTB, and the fandom didn't deserve the way we were treated.

[Neurochick]

43 minutes ago, cynic said:

David Caruso was a different situation. He was a highly buzzed about actor on a hit show and thought he could parlay that popularity into a huge movie career. He was wrong and quickly became an object lesson for other actors to not suffer from such hubris. He was raked over the coals by the media and in the public eye and his career took years to recover. If anything, stories like Caruso should illustrate why actors would be hesistant to give up a good thing, especially if they need to burn bridges to do so. This would be especially true for a non-biracial black actress with an atypical body for Hollywood and non Euro-centric conforming features. There's already a dearth of good roles for someone like that and biting the hand that feeds her would only make things harder. I doubt that it was a decision that she took lightly. 

The issue with Caruso was that, I believe, he broke his contract with ABC.  He thought he would be a big movie star but it never happened.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Neurochick

[C76]

6 hours ago, cynic said:

David Caruso was a different situation. He was a highly buzzed about actor on a hit show and thought he could parlay that popularity into a huge movie career. He was wrong and quickly became an object lesson for other actors to not suffer from such hubris. He was raked over the coals by the media and in the public eye and his career took years to recover. If anything, stories like Caruso should illustrate why actors would be hesistant to give up a good thing, especially if they need to burn bridges to do so. This would be especially true for a non-biracial black actress with an atypical body for Hollywood and non Euro-centric conforming features. There's already a dearth of good roles for someone like that and biting the hand that feeds her would only make things harder. I doubt that it was a decision that she took lightly. 

What happened to David wasn't hearsay to me. I said I don't recall him being a movie star, because I remember how things turned out for him. When I was younger, stories about DC were all over the entertainment news shows.

Trust me--I didn't mention him by accident. I realize NB may or may not have had as much buzz as him. (I honestly don't know. I haven't paid enough attention.) It may not be a perfect comparison, but in my opinion, it's adequate enough. NB was young when DC left NYPD: Blue. She might not have known who he was, never mind that he torched his career.

Let's say that the popular rumours are completely wrong, and what really happened is that after S1, NB decided she'd prefer to do movies. I wrote about DC because I think he would have been a good example for NB to be aware of.

Edited May 18, 2016 by C76
To insert a pronoun.

[cynic]

I think that the difference in their statuses and him having the motivation to "strike while the iron is hot" while she does not make the situations incomparable if you're trying to use it to explain why she might be motivated to leave. He was motivated by the success and the fame of his hot role in a popular show. He thought he had leverage by virtue of his popularity and critical acclaim. He won a Golden Globe and was nominated for an Emmy in his year with NYPD Blue and he was being touted as someone to watch. He let it go to his head and demanded a large salary increase. The producers balked and he walked figuring he could be a movie star. 

Beharie is coming off a failing show where she was unappreciated and backgrounded for large stretches. She has no hype. She has a much smaller chance of consistently working much less becoming a star than even an average white male actor, much less someone in Caruso's position in the 90's. Someone in her position is much less likely to just up and leave for the movies than he is.

I mean, hell, look at Lupita. She's an Oscar-winning actress and celebrated beauty and she hasn't had much luck getting major roles in Hollywood movies that are willing to actually show her face. Beharie's at a disadvantage and she knows it. 

And here's a more recent cautionary tale that she probably does remember - Katherine Heigl. She was another big for her britches, majorly hyped actress on a popular show who failed to achieve movie stardom. Those are the type of people that try it though. How many no-name, POC actresses on struggling shows do it? 

Edited May 19, 2016 by cynic

[C76]

47 minutes ago, cynic said:

I think that the difference in their statuses and him having the motivation to "strike while the iron is hot" while she does not make the situations incomparable if you're trying to use it to explain why she might be motivated to leave. He was motivated by the success and the fame of his hot role in a popular show. He thought he had leverage by virtue of his popularity and critical acclaim. He won a Golden Globe and was nominated for an Emmy in his year with NYPD Blue and he was being touted as someone to watch. He let it go to his head and demanded a large salary increase. The producers balked and he walked figuring he could be a movie star. 

Beharie is coming off a failing show where she was unappreciated and backgrounded for large stretches. She has no hype. She has a much smaller chance of consistently working much less becoming a star than even an average white male actor, much less someone in Caruso's position in the 90's. Someone in her position is much less likely to just up and leave for the movies than he is.

I mean, hell, look at Lupita. She's an Oscar-winning actress and celebrated beauty and she hasn't had much luck getting major roles in Hollywood movies that are willing to actually show her face. Beharie's at a disadvantage and she knows it. 

And here's a more recent cautionary tale that she probably does remember - Katherine Heigl. She was another big for her britches, majorly hyped actress on a popular show who failed to achieve movie stardom. Those are the type of people that try it though. How many no-name, POC actresses on struggling shows do it? 

None that I know of. But speaking purely in hypothetical terms, what if--and I mean IF--NB really did want to try movies, and she was committed to that decision, regardless of her circumstances? 

It's her right to pursue what she wants, no matter what anyone else may think.

Man...I really need to stop thinking about this show.

[Enero]

3 hours ago, cynic said:

Beharie is coming off a failing show where she was unappreciated and backgrounded for large stretches. She has no hype. She has a much smaller chance of consistently working much less becoming a star than even an average white male actor, much less someone in Caruso's position in the 90's. Someone in her position is much less likely to just up and leave for the movies than he is.

I mean, hell, look at Lupita. She's an Oscar-winning actress and celebrated beauty and she hasn't had much luck getting major roles in Hollywood movies that are willing to actually show her face. Beharie's at a disadvantage and she knows it. 

And here's a more recent cautionary tale that she probably does remember - Katherine Heigl. She was another big for her britches, majorly hyped actress on a popular show who failed to achieve movie stardom. Those are the type of people that try it though. How many no-name, POC actresses on struggling shows do it? 

Excellent points! Though I am proud to say that though Hollywood doesn't know what to do with Lupita, Broadway certainly does. She's currently starring in a play written by Danai Guirira, the actress who plays Michonne on The Walking Dead, on Broadway. She's received excellent reviews and was recently awarded with a Tony nomination for her work.

Back on topic, I don't believe Beharie left SH to do movies. First off, though Beharie have had a few notable movie roles, all were minor roles and nothing on the level of the movie work done by Viola Davis and Taraji P. Henderson. As you've already so eloquently pointed out, WOC just don't get roles very often like SH and if they decide to leave there's nothing to run to because Hollywood i.e. the movie industry is just not interested in casting WOC in meaty roles. 

That said, based on all that's been said and done, so far,I believe what went down wasn't completely one sided. I think it was likely a combination of both parties, at times, stepping out of line.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Enero

[cynic]

Oh yeah, that Jacob's Ladder remake. A remake of a movie that didn't exactly set the world on fire the first time around. It stars Michael Ealy, who is probably best known to most people as the guy with the pretty eyes who played the robot in that show with the guy who played Bones in the Star Trek reboot that lasted one season on Fox. Also starring, Jesse something, the other guy with the pretty eyes who played that second tier character on Grey's Anatomy. Beharie will probably play the girlfriend or something. And let's be real, it's a POC-dominant cast. It's not likely going to be a summer tentpole movie with a big studio push. If things were hunky dory at SH, I doubt that she'd be leaving for stuff like this. It's not like she got an offer to join the MCU.

But yeah, I agree with Enero. I suspect there were bad actions on both sides. I just think that she did everything in her power to get out of SH as a reaction to being poorly treated rather than as a sudden whim to go try movies or "wanderlust" as one person tried to minimize it. 

But hey, if she did just up and decide to throw all caution to the wind and follow her bliss or whatever by trashing her rep, burning bridges, kissing a good paycheck goodbye, and jeopardizing an already slim chance of a good career in the biz (cause memories are long, the town is small, and she already has enough strikes against her) with no other reason than she just wanted to, well, good luck to her. The poor delusional girl will need it. 

I just wish Orlando would say something. You know he'd have the real dish.

[Carrie Ann]

One reason people might prefer movies to TV is the schedule/workload. Movies aren't a walk in the park, but the shoots only last a few months, usually. A series with a 16-22 episode order is basically 8-10 months of shooting with very, very long days/nights, plus any marketing/appearances you have to do in the other two months. Julianna Marguiles, for example, just said that there is no way she'd do another series like that again. Now, I do not personally believe that that is the reason NB wanted out of SH, just saying that there are reasons someone might feel that way, and not just out of Caruso-like ego that you're going to make it big.

[cynic]

And there's a difference between choosing to not continue to do tv and breaking a contract and salting the earth behind you. It would be especially foolish to do it when you're close to a light in the tunnel. The season 3 renewal was shaky. Common wisdom (especially after the first few ratings came in) predicted season 3 would likely be the last and if not for the loss of AI and the failure of both Minority Report and Second Chance, it probably would've been.  Even though it got renewed, season 4 almost definitely will be it and that's only half a season. By causing a stink, Beharie saved herself 13 episodes. She risked ruining her reputation and devastating her career over 13 episodes. I can't imagine anyone doing that over a simple whim or general unhappiness. That seems more indicative of something deeply wrong. Either she's crazy or the situation was intolerable for some reason. If she's crazy, that'll come out eventually.

[Blackhoney]

If Nicole chose to leave this show, then I am super proud of her. It shows that in the face of mistreatment she wasn’t willing to just sit back and accept it because she was a black actress, fearful she’d never get another big break. If she chose to walk away I love her even more than I did before, because it always annoyed me the way she played herself down and allowed others to do it as well. 

Nicole was the co-lead of a hit show and yet for two seasons sat back at press event after press event and watched everyone involved  big up the importance of Tom and another female character's storyline. Bravo, Nicole. Bravo. She kept it professional, showed up, did her job and always had nothing but nice things to say about everyone involved, even from the beginning of the season knowing her character would be killed off. 

The idea that she was a bully and making life miserable on the set, however, is total BS. It’s easy to get a bad name in Hollywood and had she, a relatively new actress, actually been doing that, she’d have been blacklisted. It’s happened to plenty of the people in the past. There is no evidence Nicole was hell on wheels, and as always, her final words on her departure were positive and full of well wishes for everyone still involved with The Titanic the show.

Let’s not act as if any of us are really shocked Nicole was eventually booted. One of the writers on Twitter said “they” felt like they’d taken Nicole's storyline as far as they could. Does that sound like he’s talking about an actress that wanted to leave, or one they wanted gone?

Nicole isn’t the villain in this situation. Hell, there might not even be a villain. But if there is, it isn’t her.

I wish Nicole all the best. She’s a very quiet and humble artist. I have no doubt her positive nature will serve her well and she will come out of this on top, while everyone else involved with this mess of a show will just be remembered as a bunch of desperate losers who hung on to an obviously sinking ship for the sake of a paycheck.

[CalamityBoPeep]

On 5/16/2016 at 11:47 PM, Snookums said:

I would not watch this renewed racist, sexist garbage fire for eleven million dollars. Not for a herd of ponies. Not for a fleet of mini dinosaurs that are trained to bake cookies. Not for Tom Mison appearing at my door in a deerhide loincloth doing his full court bow. I will not ever, ever give these showrunners reason to think what they did to the show and its star is okay.

 

On 5/16/2016 at 7:28 PM, Sparger Springs said:

For eleven million dollars you can get me to watch The David Duke/KKK  Variety show on FOX news after the O'Reilly Factor.  since no money is being offered  I will not be watching Season 4 of Sleepy Hollow. I have no problems dropping a show.

 

Eleven million gave me pause, but add Tom in the loincloth and I'd sit through anything. As long as he can stay a while after we're done watching the last episode. Heh.

But yeah.... no money, no Tom on my doorstep... I'm done.

[cynic]

Honestly, I'm not giving up on the show for philosphical reasons. I'm just bored with it. I hung on hoping that it would start being enjoyable to me again, but it's been two years and it hasn't happened. Now, with the loss of the Abbie/Crane dynamic, it definitely isn't going to happen. Their interaction was the best part of the show. That's gone.

With her death, it's also lost the sister dynamic. The focus on a deep, complicated relationship between women, especially women of color that dealt with their history and emotions instead of the men in their lives was a big reason I fell in love with the show in the first place.

Over the years, it has shed almost all the other things I've enjoyed too: Irving, Andy, Hawley (yeah, I said it), scary Moloch, Headless as a regular, the Horseman of the Apocalypse storyline, the focus on Revelation, the Masons, the bsc writing, the frenetic pacing, and just the sense of fun.

And it's just steadily gotten worse. I had serious issues with season 2, but there were a few great episodes and bits of fun in most of even the worst ones. Season 3 didn't suffer from the same level of terrible writing/plotting, but it also lacked the bright spots. It was dull, imo, really dull.

I like Mison and he is hot, but he's not enough for me. And honestly, Crane is more of a collection of gimmicks than a fully realized character. He needs grounding. Without Abbie, he doesn't appeal nearly as much to me, especially if he's surrounded by the same characters and same writers that bored me so much in season 3. I would've rather had them spin off his character into a whole new show, maybe centering on the secret society. If it's just going to be season 3 without Abbie, I don't really have any curiosity about it.

Edited May 19, 2016 by cynic

[C76]

1 hour ago, cynic said:

Honestly, I'm not giving up on the show for philosphical reasons. I'm just bored with it. I hung on hoping that it would start being enjoyable to me again, but it's been two years and it hasn't happened. Now, with the loss of the Abbie/Crane dynamic, it definitely isn't going to happen. Their interaction was the best part of the show. That's gone.

With her death, it's also lost the sister dynamic. The focus on a deep, complicated relationship between women, especially women of color that dealt with their history and emotions instead of the men in their lives was a big reason I fell in love with the show in the first place.

Over the years, it has shed almost all the other things I've enjoyed too: Irving, Andy, Hawley (yeah, I said it), scary Moloch, Headless as a regular, the Horseman of the Apocalypse storyline, the focus on Revelation, the Masons, the bsc writing, the frenetic pacing, and just the sense of fun.

And it's just steadily gotten worse. I had serious issues with season 2, but there were a few great episodes and bits of fun in most of even the worst ones. Season 3 didn't suffer from the same level of terrible writing/plotting, but it also lacked the bright spots. It was dull, imo, really dull.

I like Mison and he is hot, but he's not enough for me. And honestly, Crane is more of a collection of gimmicks than a fully realized character. He needs grounding. Without Abbie, he doesn't appeal nearly as much to me, especially if he's surrounded by the same characters and same writers that bored me so much in season 3. I would've rather had them spin off his character into a whole new show, maybe centering on the secret society. If it's just going to be season 3 without Abbie, I don't really have any curiosity about it.

My goodness! I loved Irving and his family, as well as Andy. But for a while, I'd wondered if I was the only one who liked Hawley. I didn't mind him at first. If he had been written differently, I think I think he would have had some staying power.

Besides Abbie, Crane's been my favourite, but there were times in S3 where he seemed like a caricature to me.  His relationship with Abbie really was the heart of the show.

Edited May 19, 2016 by C76

[cynic]

There was some cringey writing here or there with Hawley, but overall I really enjoyed him. If he hadn't been used to suck up Jenny's screentime, I think more people would have liked him too. I really liked the way he played off Crane and had hoped they would be funny friends. (Crane and Joe never felt like they could become buds to me.) Plus, he was really pretty.

I think they leaned too heavily on comic Crane, outraged Crane, courtly Crane, and melodramatic Crane in season 3. Those have provided great moments in the series, but should really be more sparingly used to continue to have impact and not get tiresome. I also would have preferred seeing more change in Crane since he's been in the present for three years and travelled on his own. 

[Yolapukka]

2 hours ago, cynic said:

And it's just steadily gotten worse. I had serious issues with season 2, but there were a few great episodes and bits of fun in most of even the worst ones. Season 3 didn't suffer from the same level of terrible writing/plotting, but it also lacked the bright spots. It was dull, imo, really dull.

I like Mison and he is hot, but he's not enough for me. And honestly, Crane is more of a collection of gimmicks than a fully realized character. He needs grounding. Without Abbie, he doesn't appeal nearly as much to me, especially if he's surrounded by the same characters and same writers that bored me so much in season 3. I would've rather had them spin off his character into a whole new show, maybe centering on the secret society. If it's just going to be season 3 without Abbie, I don't really have any curiosity about it.

Absolutely this ^... I stuck through a lot of weakness in season three because of the chemistry between Ichabod and Abbie and whether or not an individual viewer saw it as sexual or strictly  a professional partners thing is immaterial, those two connected in a way that was an absolute delight and made up for the deficits in the show. My anger over the gross missteps in season two seems a bit bittersweet when I consider that there was a lot that was wonderful to watch in comparison with the stolid mediocrity that dragged season three down. What was especially frustrating was there was so much that had the potential to be audaciously brilliant and it was squandered.

Edited May 19, 2016 by yuggapukka

[C76]

2 hours ago, cynic said:

There was some cringey writing here or there with Hawley, but overall I really enjoyed him. If he hadn't been used to suck up Jenny's screentime, I think more people would have liked him too. I really liked the way he played off Crane and had hoped they would be funny friends. (Crane and Joe never felt like they could become buds to me.) Plus, he was really pretty.

I think they leaned too heavily on comic Crane, outraged Crane, courtly Crane, and melodramatic Crane in season 3. Those have provided great moments in the series, but should really be more sparingly used to continue to have impact and not get tiresome. I also would have preferred seeing more change in Crane since he's been in the present for three years and travelled on his own. 

I have nothing to add to your opinion on Crane.

And I saw Hawley the way I saw Katrina. As a counterpart for the show's lead of the same sex. I enjoyed the faux-antagonistic rapport he and Crane had. And every now and then I Google pics of Matt Barr just because. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by C76

[jhlipton]

On 5/17/2016 at 10:27 PM, HalcyonDays said:

Disagree. The evidence is out there. I've learned a lot about the situation, that I have not revealed in posts here at all....At this point, everyone - everyone - even remotely attached or barely connected to SH by obscure connections is automatically considered the villain, no matter what logical proof is revealed otherwise. Why are people not considering even with a barest of consideration or even the remotest possibility that maybe, possibly, hypothetically, that Beharie really wanted out of the show, really wanted to do movies and FOX bent over backwards to quell the turmoil and try to appease her for as long as they could? There is a reason that merely two or so days after Abbie Mills' death (aka SH finale), that the remake of Jacob's Ladder was announced, along with Beharie's casting. Castings like this are not done in days. It takes weeks. Months even. Albert Kim tweeted about the movie weeks before the end of the finale. They all knew. All of them. She wanted out, she wanted her movie career. That is the reality.

There is a reason that seemingly disconnected writers are tweeting their similar turmoil. This is not an accident. The problem is that the public refuses to even consider it a possibility. This is a close knit group who all talk to each other and reveal things. TV Networks all know what really happened with Nicole Beharie. Eric Heisserer spoke the truth, and there is a reason so many other writers have picked this up.

Frankly, my dear, as others have pointed out, this is horseshit. If there wasw one post that even slightly suggested that "Yeah, we could have done better", I'd be more willing to listen.  But all we've gotten, from the writers and the suits is "We were forced to write a nasty, disrespectful ending!"  Bull fucking shit.

On 5/17/2016 at 11:48 PM, cynic said:

Oh, I have no doubt that Beharie wanted to leave. My issue is the laying of blame at Beharie for wanting to leave without considering why she wanted to leave.

Be free, Beharie. Stay classy and good luck on your movie career.

 

On 5/17/2016 at 9:30 AM, catrox14 said:

I'm so over the "Oh viewers. You silly gooses. Stop being upset with us. Nicole wanted to leave. We HAD to write her horrible exit this way. We had no other choice because she wanted to leave."

Screw that. I'm not a professional writer and I can come up 20 different ways to give Abbie a beautiful, emotional, meaningful swan song that left Abbie's legacy FULLY intact and leaves Ichabod carrying the banner for the Witnesses. 

I do not understand why this is so hard to understand that is what IMO the casual viewer is upset about.

Exactly.

On 5/18/2016 at 6:28 AM, Neurochick said:

This is how I feel as well.  I am a Black woman and I get the spin and the bullshit Fox is selling.  Their bullshit is just that, bullshit; the proof is in the pudding.

I am a white guy and totally agree.  Look at all the critics (regardless of gender, race or sexual preference) saying the same thing.

 

On 5/19/2016 at 5:46 PM, cynic said:

Beharie is coming off a failing show where she was unappreciated and backgrounded for large stretches. She has no hype. She has a much smaller chance of consistently working much less becoming a star than even an average white male actor, much less someone in Caruso's position in the 90's. Someone in her position is much less likely to just up and leave for the movies than he is.

She may have had small parts in big movies (Shame and 42) and big parts in small movies (American Violet and My Last Day Without You), but I think she was beginning to make a name for herself.  She took the part of Abbie as a lark.   If she had known that FOX was going to do its utmost to trash her and her reputation, I doubt she would have bothered.

On 5/19/2016 at 0:14 AM, cynic said:

Oh yeah, that Jacob's Ladder remake. A remake of a movie that didn't exactly set the world on fire the first time around. It stars Michael Ealy, who is probably best known to most people as the guy with the pretty eyes who played the robot in that show with the guy who played Bones in the Star Trek reboot that lasted one season on Fox. Also starring, Jesse something, the other guy with the pretty eyes who played that second tier character on Grey's Anatomy.

But hey, if she did just up and decide to throw all caution to the wind and follow her bliss or whatever by trashing her rep, burning bridges, kissing a good paycheck goodbye, and jeopardizing an already slim chance of a good career in the biz (cause memories are long, the town is small, and she already has enough strikes against her) with no other reason than she just wanted to, well, good luck to her. The poor delusional girl will need it.

Well, there goes my interest in seeing it.  I might yet for NB, but meh.

Even if NB was all the above (and there is zero evidence to suppose she is, vs tons of evidence to support the fact that FOX is lying), there is no reason for them to trash her.

21 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

There are PLENTY of actors who do movies and have a series. They're given months off in the summer. Just look at Melissa McCarthy as a prime example. She was earning millions in movies and could carry it as the star, yet she stuck with her series until the bitter end.

I'm sure NIcole knew she could do Jacob's Ladder type movies and keep her day job at the same time.

Also, Wentworth Miller and Dominic Purcell made a Prison Break movie -- DP is still in Legends of Tomorrow and while WM was "killed", the CW has let it be known that he will return.  Dylan O'Brien has made 2.5 Maze Runner movies and only his accident will keep him from Teen Wolf. So the "she wanted to make a movie" has no credibility at all.

[Watermelon]

I don't know if it counts for "media", but Nicole is apparently living in Manhattan.  Her instagram shows her with a nice view of the city, and taking zumba classes. That girl can move!

[Yolapukka]

Quote

She took the part of Abbie as a lark.   If she had known that FOX was going to do its utmost to trash her and her reputation, I doubt she would have bothered.

She took the part of Abbie as a job. She signed a contract reflecting that reality and did her job well. She seems to have had enough professionalism that whatever private concerns she may (and likely did) have about her position as lead actress as that place of precedence was eroded, she was careful about airing those concerns publicly. The worst we ever heard from her was an overall positive story about being surprised by fan enthusiasm. I understand your intent is supportive in saying she took the part of Abbie as a lark and she may have had something of that attitude when she auditioned, but to say she took the actual job as a lark casts more shade at her than anything that can be interpreted from the diplomatic weasel words coming from Fox or the backstage team. We have to parse those words pretty carefully to find negative inferences towards her, so I don't think her reputation has exactly been trashed either. She's been quiet and positive, they've been careful and mildly defensive. The only thing that has been clear is they were willing to release her and she was satisfied to leave. I've read no credible whispers of her being a diva in the media. Personally, I think she was wise to leave given the "opportunity".  Sleepy Hollow has been a sinking ship and stepping away shields her from the idea that she couldn't carry a show, even though the problem has been that the writing shifted that responsibility away from her before the end of the first season and fans increasingly lost interest consequent to that shift.

Edited May 21, 2016 by yuggapukka

[Blackhoney]

All during season 2 I posted what I knew about the show from my source on FanForum.com. I know a few of you here know me from there, so you know my ish is good. I never heard anything about Nicole wanting off the show and being unhappy and some sort of 5'1, 110 pound bully. Nope, I heard just the opposite as a matter of fact. There was a lot of drama in season 2 behind-the-scenes and it was Tom who was mostly making his displeasure known. I'm gonna go back through my posts over there and see if I can find what I wrote at the time. I remember being told Fox wanted Tom single, so I was none too shocked when they turned him into The Bachelor this season, and I bet my life they go even further down that path next season. Make no mistake, season 4 will be what season 2 was meant to be, all about Crane and his love life. I bet Crane meets some woman whose somehow tied to the apocalypse and he and his new witness sidekick will have to protect her.

[Badsamaritan]

I wish I could find the tweet but I do remember either finale night or shortly after, a Black actress (and I cannot for the life of me think of her name, but it was a 3 word name) who is a friend of NB's tweeted at her something about being strong and knowing her worth and not letting anyone dim her light. Speculative but telling in light of her own statements about her solo con appearance and what she was told by FOX. I might keep looking. 

[Blackhoney]

I remember that tweet, it was from Anika Noni Rose, but it was from when word got out Nicole had not been invited to give DVD commentary. I think folks just started retweeting it again. 

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, yuggapukka said:

She took the part of Abbie as a job. She signed a contract reflecting that reality and did her job well.

The only thing that has been clear is they were willing to release her and she was satisfied to leave

As you say, I didn't mean that she was unprofessional in any way; more that she hadn't really thought about doing TV until she got the info about this show.

 

If they were so willing to release her, why make all this drama?  Write her off with grace and dignity.  Then, have her put out a statement like Marianne Jean-Baptiste after leaving Blindspot, or have her at a Fox-sponsored event saying something like "I loved doing Sleepy Hollow, but I had an opportunity to do XYZ.  I am going to miss this show and all its crazy loving fans."

Boom done.

Edited May 21, 2016 by jhlipton

[frenchtoast]

Hey folks, the talk is starting to be more about Nicole/Abbie than Sleepy Hollow in the Media. And let's remember the Be Civil guidelines--not everyone is going to agree, and that's ok. It's not a requirement to prove one way or the other. Feel free to continue in the Abby thread

[TV Juriste]

On May 17, 2016 at 10:27 PM, HalcyonDays said:

Disagree. The evidence is out there. I've learned a lot about the situation, that I have not revealed in posts here at all....At this point, everyone - everyone - even remotely attached or barely connected to SH by obscure connections is automatically considered the villain, no matter what logical proof is revealed otherwise. Why are people not considering even with a barest of consideration or even the remotest possibility that maybe, possibly, hypothetically, that Beharie really wanted out of the show, really wanted to do movies and FOX bent over backwards to quell the turmoil and try to appease her for as long as they could? There is a reason that merely two or so days after Abbie Mills' death (aka SH finale), that the remake of Jacob's Ladder was announced, along with Beharie's casting. Castings like this are not done in days. It takes weeks. Months even. Albert Kim tweeted about the movie weeks before the end of the finale. They all knew. All of them. She wanted out, she wanted her movie career. That is the reality.

There is a reason that seemingly disconnected writers are tweeting their similar turmoil. This is not an accident. The problem is that the public refuses to even consider it a possibility. This is a close knit group who all talk to each other and reveal things. TV Networks all know what really happened with Nicole Beharie. Eric Heisserer spoke the truth, and there is a reason so many other writers have picked this up.

Actors can be horrible.  No question.  But, the approach of writers responding to complaints about their storylines, stereotypes, and blindspots that even Stevie Wonder can see (sorry) with cowardly thinly veiled attacks on individual actors with accusations about bts conduct is -- well, shameful. That's truly the best word I can think of for what's transpired over the last few weeks.  I also find it RIDICULOUS when fans make direct, personal threats on goofy writers.  What a mess. I'm very curious about how ratings will hold up next season.

[TV Juriste]

On May 17, 2016 at 10:27 PM, HalcyonDays said:

Disagree. The evidence is out there. I've learned a lot about the situation, that I have not revealed in posts here at all....At this point, everyone - everyone - even remotely attached or barely connected to SH by obscure connections is automatically considered the villain, no matter what logical proof is revealed otherwise. Why are people not considering even with a barest of consideration or even the remotest possibility that maybe, possibly, hypothetically, that Beharie really wanted out of the show, really wanted to do movies and FOX bent over backwards to quell the turmoil and try to appease her for as long as they could? There is a reason that merely two or so days after Abbie Mills' death (aka SH finale), that the remake of Jacob's Ladder was announced, along with Beharie's casting. Castings like this are not done in days. It takes weeks. Months even. Albert Kim tweeted about the movie weeks before the end of the finale. They all knew. All of them. She wanted out, she wanted her movie career. That is the reality.

There is a reason that seemingly disconnected writers are tweeting their similar turmoil. This is not an accident. The problem is that the public refuses to even consider it a possibility. This is a close knit group who all talk to each other and reveal things. TV Networks all know what really happened with Nicole Beharie. Eric Heisserer spoke the truth, and there is a reason so many other writers have picked this up.

With all due respect, you're doing the same thing - hinting at insider knowledge to suggest bad BTS behavior - without revealing it. It's a way to cast aspersions without being held accountable for the damage. 

It's so unfortunate to see how readily people are willing to believe the worst and on that basis to tear women (particularly, but not exclusively) women of color apart based on conduct that is shrugged off when a man does the same thing.  Tom Mison, John Noble, and Katia Winter all complained about the post-Season 1 writing on the show. None of them are being slyly attacked for unprofessional or diva behavior on social media. By contrast, except for one quickly removed post expressing disappointment about DVD commentary, Beharie has been consistently positive about the show. But, none of that matters. People are primed to believe the worst and these writers know it and act on it.

Like someone upthread, I dropped the show mid-season because of boredom.  Not BTS drama - BOREDOM because of lame writing. 

[C76]

6 hours ago, TV Juriste said:

With all due respect, you're doing the same thing - hinting at insider knowledge to suggest bad BTS behavior - without revealing it. It's a way to cast aspersions without being held accountable for the damage. 

It's so unfortunate to see how readily people are willing to believe the worst and on that basis to tear women (particularly, but not exclusively) women of color apart based on conduct that is shrugged off when a man does the same thing.  Tom Mison, John Noble, and Katia Winter all complained about the post-Season 1 writing on the show. None of them are being slyly attacked for unprofessional or diva behavior on social media. By contrast, except for one quickly removed post expressing disappointment about DVD commentary, Beharie has been consistently positive about the show. But, none of that matters. People are primed to believe the worst and these writers know it and act on it.

Like someone upthread, I dropped the show mid-season because of boredom.  Not BTS drama - BOREDOM because of lame writing. 

What "bad" behaviour? 

*looks at HD's reply*

I see Halcyon used the word "turmoil". What if NB was upset about having to stay on with the show? What difference should that really make?

Let's forget about NB and what people try to add or subtract from what might have happened. 

If an actor makes a decision to leave a show after being on it for a short while, but stays because of her contract, what's the problem?

[HalcyonDays]

Quote

With all due respect, you're doing the same thing - hinting at insider knowledge to suggest bad BTS behavior - without revealing it. It's a way to cast aspersions without being held accountable for the damage. 

No I am not, actually. I'm taking the stuff I've read about, or remember reading about and piecing together the information. I have no insider knowledge - I'm just trying to piece together the pieces and the puzzle pieces match pretty well together. I've read stuff SH from day 1, so hindsight being 20/20, by looking back at those things, it's like finding out who a blind item is about, rereading the blind and wondering why you didn't think it was Actor X in the first place!!

Speaking of Blinds.

Quote

Eric Heisserer‏@HIGHzurrer May 9
2) You now have a cranky lead making things tough for everyone else. You try to bear it best you can.

Bonker's Leading Leading Blind Item. (April 2015)

Spoiler

Remind me to tell you about the bonkers leading lady that is driving the cast and crew of her popular-yet-modestly-rated series mad — so much so that pretty much everyone is dreading going back to work next season. (Sounds like it’s time for my first set visit!)

Not a CBS show and Not a FOX Comedy.

Spoiler

Remember the “bonkers leading lady” blind item I embedded in a recent Ask Ausiello? I hear the the situation has worsened considerably in the two months since that item posted. In fact, the very real possibility exists that She Who Shall Not Be Named may not be around for the entire upcoming season.

Bonkers was the term always used when describing Sleepy Hollow in the early days. That particular word always. Also, AM was the only character killed off that the networks changed their minds to not do it midseason, but waited till the end. FOX is put in there - not a comedy right...but the FOX clue is right there.

Also, popular and modestly rated applies to SH. The first blind was April 2015. The second "situation has worsened" was June 2015, right as SH was filming. We also know NB wanted out end of season 2, and these blinds occurred early season 3.

__________________________________________________

- Eric H has said over and over that a doctor's note was provided by actor, and later in other tweets alluded to mental health issues. This is a very specific thing to say. Actors have "exhaustion" all of the time, but you never hear about a doctor's note.

Sleepy Hollow Filming Shut Down.

This was when I suspect the Dr's note appeared so they shut down production so she could "recover".

Quote

Later, NB tweets Nikki Beharie ‏@NikkiBeharie 20 Oct 2015
Health. Nothing is more important. Nothing can be done properly w poor health.#luvonU

Eric H always says health. Not exhaustion, which is the usual word used for actors - no, it's always health. She even addresses her health too.

Season 2 of SH finished filming mid-December 2014. One of the writers said at one point that it took about 2 weeks to film an episode. Backtrack those weeks, and you get pretty close to the time of filming Pittura Infamante - aka the episode that everyone complained about was sidelining Abbie.

But if you know the above, you might also think that maybe, the reason she didn't appear in the episode that much, was because she "called in sick", they could only wait so long for her to get better, and had to make changes and film something at least, or lost a lot of money.
 

Quote

 

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Say you write an episode for Lead where Lead is in 5 scenes. (Most leads are in 20+ scenes, but: medical consideration.)

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Those 5 scenes are designed to be crucial; to use Lead for as much as possible, so Co-Lead doesn't do all the real work.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 One or two of those scenes likely sets up a longer season arc, or furthers a relationship btwn Lead and Co-Lead.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Episode is being filmed. Day 3. Lead's scene 2. Shoot runs long that day (weather, tech issues, any # of reasons, typical).

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Next morning, doctor calls: "Lead feels overtaxed from overtime, won't be returning this week." There goes the 3 other scenes.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 While Lead recovers, you now have to rewrite episode on the spot, reworking those 3 scenes to have other actors fill in.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 This is likely killing you, writer, since you wanted Lead to have those moments. It works with Lead, doesn't feel right w/out.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Given only a couple of hours to rework the episode on set, with cast & crew waiting, you know it's broken. A stopgap measure.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Furthermore, the bigger arc you were writing for Lead? Won't work now. So future episodes are affected as well. Extra tough.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Everyone struggles to see if there is way to have Lead shoot more material next week, but that messes up the schedule more.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Even being fully empathetic with Lead's problem, you know it's eroding the quality of the show & no patchwork writing will help.

Eric Heisserer ‏@HIGHzurrer May 14
@Hungrig1 Episode airs and fans (+ some critics) pile on, calling you a hack for writing so poorly + blaming you for Lead's absence.

 

So was NB sidelined? Or did she not appear in certain episodes in the first place, because she wanted out and was "sick."

Last year, knowing what I knew, I would have picked option #1. Knowing what I know now? Definately Option #2.

The above is not the only reason I think it's NB - lots more out there. This is a small piece.

If NB is the cause of all of the problems on SH by wanting to leave, why can she not be held accountable for that, even partially?

_________________________________

[vanarnd1]

1 hour ago, HalcyonDays said:

 

So was NB sidelined? Or did she not appear in certain episodes in the first place, because she wanted out and was "sick."

Last year, knowing what I knew, I would have picked option #1. Knowing what I know now? Definately Option #2.

The above is not the only reason I think it's NB - lots more out there. This is a small piece.

If NB is the cause of all of the problems on SH by wanting to leave, why can she not be held accountable for that, even partially?

_________________________________

Well to say she was the cause of all the problems ignores the writing throughout all of season 2. IMO, the point when the writing got really bad and became clearly Katrina/CFD focused was "Deliverance" which was 6 episodes before "Pittura Infamante" The tweets you referenced are describing an actor/actress who is the lead character and being given a lot of important story lines, and Abbie's focused had already been diminished creatively long before she was supposedly  causing problems on set.

Also it is assuming that any health problems she did claim were used as a ploy to cause trouble behind the scenes. She could have had legitimately had health issues either unrelated to the show or because of stress/issues that came up because of the atmosphere behind the scenes that had already shelved her character creatively. To me it is a very slippery slope to assume that someone who claimed to have health concerns was only using that as an way to try and get off a show. Especially since the sources who leak these things are from the TV industry and would be more likely to paint FOX/TPTB as sympathetic. 

If you want to hold Nicole accountable to the extent that it was her choice to leave that is one thing, but there were issues with the direction of the show since the end of season 1 (including offensive tropes and stereotypes), and to ignore how that affected the character of Abbie onscreen and potentially made it harder for Nicole behind the scenes, is letting TPTB off the hook when they deserve plenty of blame IMO.

Edited May 24, 2016 by vanarnd1

[bobbysgurl]

1 hour ago, HalcyonDays said:

No I am not, actually. I'm taking the stuff I've read about, or remember reading about and piecing together the information. I have no insider knowledge - I'm just trying to piece together the pieces and the puzzle pieces match pretty well together. I've read stuff SH from day 1, so hindsight being 20/20, by looking back at those things, it's like finding out who a blind item is about, rereading the blind and wondering why you didn't think it was Actor X in the first place!!

Speaking of Blinds.

Bonker's Leading Leading Blind Item. (April 2015)

  Reveal hidden contents

Remind me to tell you about the bonkers leading lady that is driving the cast and crew of her popular-yet-modestly-rated series mad — so much so that pretty much everyone is dreading going back to work next season. (Sounds like it’s time for my first set visit!)

Not a CBS show and Not a FOX Comedy.

  Reveal hidden contents

Remember the “bonkers leading lady” blind item I embedded in a recent Ask Ausiello? I hear the the situation has worsened considerably in the two months since that item posted. In fact, the very real possibility exists that She Who Shall Not Be Named may not be around for the entire upcoming season.

Bonkers was the term always used when describing Sleepy Hollow in the early days. That particular word always. Also, AM was the only character killed off that the networks changed their minds to not do it midseason, but waited till the end. FOX is put in there - not a comedy right...but the FOX clue is right there.

Also, popular and modestly rated applies to SH. The first blind was April 2015. The second "situation has worsened" was June 2015, right as SH was filming. We also know NB wanted out end of season 2, and these blinds occurred early season 3.

__________________________________________________

- Eric H has said over and over that a doctor's note was provided by actor, and later in other tweets alluded to mental health issues. This is a very specific thing to say. Actors have "exhaustion" all of the time, but you never hear about a doctor's note.

Sleepy Hollow Filming Shut Down.

This was when I suspect the Dr's note appeared so they shut down production so she could "recover".

Eric H always says health. Not exhaustion, which is the usual word used for actors - no, it's always health. She even addresses her health too.

Season 2 of SH finished filming mid-December 2014. One of the writers said at one point that it took about 2 weeks to film an episode. Backtrack those weeks, and you get pretty close to the time of filming Pittura Infamante - aka the episode that everyone complained about was sidelining Abbie.

But if you know the above, you might also think that maybe, the reason she didn't appear in the episode that much, was because she "called in sick", they could only wait so long for her to get better, and had to make changes and film something at least, or lost a lot of money.
 

So was NB sidelined? Or did she not appear in certain episodes in the first place, because she wanted out and was "sick."

Last year, knowing what I knew, I would have picked option #1. Knowing what I know now? Definately Option #2.

The above is not the only reason I think it's NB - lots more out there. This is a small piece.

If NB is the cause of all of the problems on SH by wanting to leave, why can she not be held accountable for that, even partially?

_________________________________

 Everything you posted is second-hand information.  We, none of us, really know what happened behind closed doors.

Is it impossible to enjoy the show for what you really want out of it (TM), and not disparage NB?  If it were me, I wouldn't think twice about an actor who left a show if she weren't the primary reason for my watching in the first place.  NB doesn't deserve the hate, but SH does.

[NuncaNunca]

I would strongly encourage anyone who is inclined to believe rumors, blind items, or vague tweets about a woman actor read this TV roundtable from The Hollywood Reporter:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/actress-roundtable-jennifer-lopez-kerry-895061

Also, realize that: 1) one or two people can cause a lot of damage with gossip or rumors--widespread repetition can simply mean someone talks an awful lot, and loudly; 2) what constitutes "bad" behavior can really, really depend on your perspective, and with whom you sympathize--for any number of reasons; 3) everyone who leaks insider info anonymously has an agenda, and it's good to consider what that agenda might be.

[C76]

1 hour ago, bobbysgurl said:

 Everything you posted is second-hand information.  We, none of us, really know what happened behind closed doors.

Is it impossible to enjoy the show for what you really want out of it (TM), and not disparage NB?  If it were me, I wouldn't think twice about an actor who left a show if she weren't the primary reason for my watching in the first place.  NB doesn't deserve the hate, but SH does.

Here's the thing though. (I'm not replying to your post so much as the idea of what you said as it applies to this discussion in general.)

EVERYTHING we've been debating over the past few weeks--on both sides--is second hand information.

Or, rather...Let me begin again.

Yes, certain information has come to light. Incidents involving natural hair, "forgetting" to invite NB to record commentary, etc. 

But those items do not provide us with enough information to say definitively that a pervasive culture of mistreatment is (or isn't) the sole reason that NB left SH.

As a fan, I'm sorry about the outcome. But suppose NB wanted to leave SH for a while and finally seized the chance to do it. It's her life and her right to do what she wants. 

I backed away from the popular theory about NB's departure because people's reactions were getting to be too much for me. (FWIW, anyone who thinks it's hot in here needs to check other spaces.) As of this moment, I'm going to do my best not to comment further either way until/unless we receive clarifying information from an official source. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by C76

[bobbysgurl]

21 minutes ago, C76 said:

Here's the thing though. (I'm not replying to your post so much as the idea of what you said as it applies to this discussion in general.)

EVERYTHING we've been debating over the past few weeks--on both sides--is second hand information.

Or, rather...Let me begin again.

Yes, certain information has come to light. Incidents involving natural hair, "forgetting" to invite NB to record commentary, etc. 

But those items do not provide us with enough information to say definitively that a pervasive culture of mistreatment is (or isn't) the sole reason that NB left SH.

As a fan, I'm sorry about the outcome. But suppose NB wanted to leave SH for a while and finally seized the chance to do it. It's her life and her right to do what she wants. 

I backed away from the popular theory about NB's departure because people's reactions were getting to be too much for me. (FWIW, anyone who thinks it's hot in here needs to check other spaces.) As of this moment, I'm going to do my best not to comment further either way until/unless we receive clarifying information from an official source. 

 

I have repeatedly posted that none of us knows what went on or is going on behind closed doors at FOX.  I have speculated, as have others, from what we saw from week to week on SH.

I saw the tweet from NB asking why she wasn't being followed by SH on twitter.  The tweet that was pulled down about the DVD commentary, I didn't see.

I also listened to the podcast about NB wanting to wear her hair natural.

And, I still say the information that is coming from FOX and being spread is second-hand and spurious. The information comes from questionable sources: people who are related to SH and possibly their cohorts.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or troublesome.  I'm only stating my opinion.  I have made no attempts to cloak my opinion as the gospel, because it is not.  It is limited to what I actually know, and that's little.  Remember there are 3 sides to every story:  your side, my side, and the truth.  I don't know the truth, and unless someone here had a front-row seat at what really happened at FOX, then they are speculating like the rest of us.  I cannot speak for others, so I'lll say "speculating like I am".

I don't think I ever said NB didn't have a right to make a grown-up choice to leave SH.   I just speculate that she had a boot in her ass as she was leaving the room.

Deuces.

[Julia]

8 hours ago, HalcyonDays said:

No I am not, actually. I'm taking the stuff I've read about, or remember reading about and piecing together the information. I have no insider knowledge - I'm just trying to piece together the pieces and the puzzle pieces match pretty well together. I've read stuff SH from day 1, so hindsight being 20/20, by looking back at those things, it's like finding out who a blind item is about, rereading the blind and wondering why you didn't think it was Actor X in the first place!!

...

The above is not the only reason I think it's NB - lots more out there. This is a small piece.

If NB is the cause of all of the problems on SH by wanting to leave, why can she not be held accountable for that, even partially?

I may be misunderstanding your point, and I don't want to respond based on a misunderstanding.

If I'm getting what you're saying, based on your interpretation of blind mentions of an unnamed show on a producer-fed gossip site, you've decided that Nicole Beharie was the actor being referred to as a troublemaker. If she was, then chances are that the gossip is true, because no-one involved in the team whose performance was pretty much universally reviled and who in some cases were fired would have reason to anonymously suggest that she was at fault instead.  The showrunner in particular, who went to war with his viewers over sidelining Beharie in favor of his preferred lead, would have no reason to plant a poisoned blind item with human press release Ausiello suggesting that she left them no choice.

Also there are lots of other blind items about actresses and they could be her too, so she should take the hit for two seasons of bad writing and the writers ushering her character out as Morgan Freeman, dying that Matt Damon might golf, but with ladybits.

Is that about it? If not, what am I missing?

I assume you're speaking here as a private individual and not a mod, under the circumstances.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Julia

[OnceSane]

If you have stated your opinion several times, MOVE ON. If you can't follow our site's "Be Civil" rule, don't post.  We will delete posts that fail to meet this criteria.

[OnceSane]

We are locking the thread for 24 hours as y'all refuse to heed the mod notes.  The sniping is not and will not be tolerated. Making the conversation about NB personal is not okay.  When the thread unlocks, anyone who continues disregarding the mod notes will be receive warnings and suspensions.  

[frenchtoast]

Just a reminder that this is not a debate club and no one "wins". For a refresher, check out the post from October in the Mod Announcement. We understand that for many Sleepy Hollow and the issues surrounding it are important and bring out passionate feelings. Let's just remember that your fellow posters are not enemies for thinking differently.

[cynic]

In other news, Matt Barr will be in one of the Amazon pilots. The description doesn't really strike my fancy, but I like him enough to give it a shot. I kinda wish he could have a spinoff based on Hawley, but I know I'm probably the only one! :D

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/26/matt-bomer-lauren-ambrose-amazon-pilots