"What?!?": In Which We Attempt to Address the WTFery of SPN Lore and Whatnot

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So does that mean Cain was actually a human/primordial-creature-born-of-Purgatory hybrid?  Interesting...

I've always assumed there were two different Eves; one was the mother of all monsters and the other was the mother of all humans. Cain would be the son of the human one. I think it was heavily implied the mother-of-all-monsters Eve was a Leviathan.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm going with Lucifer picked them and  Cain trained them thus Cain is still correct in saying he built the order with his son hands. He schooled them in all the ways to kill and wreak havoc. So Henry wasn't wrong necessarily he just didn't know the whole story.

I'll go with that.  :)

52 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've always assumed there were two different Eves; one was the mother of all monsters and the other was the mother of all humans. Cain would be the son of the human one. I think it was heavily implied the mother-of-all-monsters Eve was a Leviathan.

Well,the wiki had the 'Eve' in the "Cain was the first born son of Adam and Eve. " linked to the Eve page that said she was a primordial creature born of Purgatory.  And the show's never specified there were two separate Eves.  So...maybe like Eleanor Visyak (whom the show also never specified as a particular creature, only that she was a native of Purgatory) she wasn't necessarily bad until Lucifer got his claws on her. 

Eve might be a true Leviathan, but I don't think so.  The only thing that could kill Eve was Phoenix ash, not Blood of the Fallen (which interestingly, needed an Alpha's blood - or one of Eve's first born - to complete) which could kill Leviathan, so I'd say a close, even older (if her children's blood was needed to kill them) relative.  This is on the wiki also:

Quote

In the official companion book for season six, Sera Gamble gives insight into the origin of Eleanor:

"She is a similar kind of creature to Eve, actually. She's a creature that originated in Purgatory. She is what came through the portal when Lovecraft and his cohorts did their little spell back in the day. She's a little less powerful, she was not as high on the food chain over there, but she is extremely old, extremely powerful, and not of this Earth."

[sarthaz]

Opinions: God. One per universe?  Or one Chuck to rule them all?  Same with Amara and Death. Go.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Opinions: God. One per universe?  Or one Chuck to rule them all?  Same with Amara and Death. Go.

I have no idea. LOL

Death!Billie knows about the multiverse, but that just might be a Death in SPN verse and there might be Deaths in the other universes.  Same with Guck and Amara.  Who freaking knows at this point! LOL I sure don't.

[trxr4kids]

53 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Opinions: God. One per universe?  Or one Chuck to rule them all?  Same with Amara and Death. Go.

I'm gonna go with one Chuck, Amara and original recipe Death, mostly because it fits with how I see Guck. IOW, he went around willy nilly creating because he wanted to, locked his sister up when she knocked over too many of his building blocks and then got bored and went on vacation. It does make me ponder who would have taken over for Death since without OW circumstances Billie presumably wouldn't have been killed. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Opinions: God. One per universe?  Or one Chuck to rule them all?  Same with Amara and Death. Go.

I think it's a God/Amara/Death for every universe. I think the multi-verse sets up infinite universes of infinite possibilities. I imagine there's a universe out there where God didn't lock up his sister, but the reverse happened and a universe where God doesn't exist at all. I also imagine there's a universe where God never left Heaven and a universe where God and Lucifer worked out their differences so there are no demons...and etc.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have no idea. LOL

Death!Billie knows about the multiverse, but that just might be a Death in SPN verse and there might be Deaths in the other universes.  Same with Guck and Amara.  Who freaking knows at this point! LOL I sure don't.

This is why I hate the whole idea, because for me, it all diminishes the pain and sacrifices Dean and Sam endured and continue to endure. Especially if there is only one Chuck and it's all just one big cosmic fucking game to him. And if there are multi verses and Gods, and we can just leap between them, it's as bad because this world is insignificant in the grand scheme.  I realize there are other shows and comics, etc., where this works, but we had 12 years of believing in one works and one set of Winchester brothers that saved it. I wish they hadn't screwed with that.

[sarthaz]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is why I hate the whole idea, because for me, it all diminishes the pain and sacrifices Dean and Sam endured and continue to endure. Especially if there is only one Chuck and it's all just one big cosmic fucking game to him. And if there are multi verses and Gods, and we can just leap between them, it's as bad because this world is insignificant in the grand scheme.  I realize there are other shows and comics, etc., where this works, but we had 12 years of believing in one works and one set of Winchester brothers that saved it. I wish they hadn't screwed with that.

Yeah, I really dislike the concept as well.  I could see myself getting on board with it if they cleverly tie it into time travel, like each of these universes was created when our heroes were sent back in time or Balthazar did something wacky, and there's a specific and finite number of them.  But that doesn't seem likely.  Or if they can find a way to explain these specific universes and that there are no more than two sets of humanity. But the classic infinite universes? No. Can't stand it.

[Lrdmordain]

Ok I'm binge watching season 13 and I just finished up to episode 5. I have some lore questions that occurred to me while watching thus far.

 

1. Regarding Cas's return, If neither God, Angels, Demons, not anyone except for that celestial being, has any power over the Big Empty, how was God able to bring Cas back after he got exploded in season 5?

The celestial being specifically says that ALL angels and demons go there when they die and Cas was most certainly dead after being exploded. God re-building the body makes total sense, but given this new information God should have not been able to bring Cas himself back, and we know it wasn't the Celestial being's doing because it specifically said that Cas being awake in S13E4 was the first time that had ever happened. So, what, did God go to a place where he had no power, somehow, find "dead" Cas's "unconcious" form, while powerless, and sneak both it and himself back out, again without any powers?

2. If Nephlim are such huge deals, seen as blights to be removed / horrible mistakes / etc..., to the point where they are hunted down just after they are born, how did the waitress that Metatron has Cas kill as part of the expell angels from heaven spell survive as long as she did? Metatron clearly knew she existed despite having been hidden away for years upon years, and we learned last season that angels can "sense" when a nephlim has come into existence, so the angels must have known about her, yet she was left untouched?

3. Did I miss the explanation of why Crowley's "control system" over Lucifer reversed itself to the point where Lucifer could control Crowley?

4. In Advanced Thanatology Ghost Dean says he found out where all the trapped ghosts bodies are from the newly dead teen, having asked him where the doctor his the teen's body. My issue is how would the teen have known where the ghost doctor has hidden his body? The ghost doctor had possessed him and made him drill into his own head killing himself. At that point did he immediately / instantly become a ghost, standing next to his own body, and watch as the ghost doctor walked himself / his corpse to wherever he his bodies? Can ghosts even posses dead body and operate them? I thought ghosts could only posses the living?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Lrdmordain

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

1. Regarding Cas's return, If neither God, Angels, Demons, not anyone except for that celestial being, has any power over the Big Empty, how was God able to bring Cas back after he got exploded in season 5?

The celestial being specifically says that ALL angels and demons go there when they die and Cas was most certainly dead after being exploded. God re-building the body makes total sense, but given this new information God should have not been able to bring Cas himself back, and we know it wasn't the Celestial being's doing because it specifically said that Cas being awake in S13E4 was the first time that had ever happened. So, what, did God go to a place where he had no power, somehow, find "dead" Cas's "unconcious" form, while powerless, and sneak both it and himself back out, again without any powers?

When people die, we've seen that it sometimes takes a while for their soul to leave their body.  Specifically in My Bloody Valentine, when that body was on the slab and Cas said his soul hadn't been harvested yet. OK, technically that could have been because Famine did something to it.  But, we don't really know, on SPN, how long it is between dying and soul getting to its final destination.  If God brought Cas back before he got to the Empty all of those times, The Empty would have never been involved.  Plus, I find it hard to believe that God is powerless anywhere.  He must have created the Empty in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

2. If Nephlim are such huge deals, seen as blights to be removed / horrible mistakes / etc..., to the point where they are hunted down just after they are born, how did the waitress that Metatron has Cas kill as part of the expell angels from heaven spell survive as long as she did? Metatron clearly knew she existed despite having been hidden away for years upon years, and we learned last season that angels can "sense" when a nephlim has come into existence, so the angels must have known about her, yet she was left untouched?

We can add to that, if angels can sense Nephilim how was that bad angel from Lily Sunder able to convince 3 other angels that a fully mortal child was one?  Why did everybody seem to know that they always killed their mothers and yet again Lily Sunder?  I do have a theory about Metatron being the only one to know about the waitress if we take away the sensing when one is born, though. He was her father.

 

3 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

 

3. Did I miss the explanation of why Crowley's "control system" over Lucifer reversed itself to the point where Lucifer could control Crowley?

No, you did not.  

 

3 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

4. In Advanced Thanatology Ghost Dean says he found out where all the trapped ghosts bodies are from the newly dead teen, having asked him where the doctor his the teen's body. My issue is how would the teen have known where the ghost doctor has hidden his body? The ghost doctor had possessed him and made him drill into his own head killing himself. At that point did he immediately / instantly become a ghost, standing next to his own body, and watch as the ghost doctor walked himself / his corpse to wherever he his bodies? Can ghosts even posses dead body and operate them? I thought ghosts could only posses the living?

Since ghosts are normally attached to their bones, (hence burning them gets rid of their bones), I find it quite logical that a ghost would know where his bones were whether he saw them put there or not.  And, I don't see why a ghost couldn't possess a corpse.  It's still a body

Edited May 20, 2018 by Katy M

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

When people die, we've seen that it sometimes takes a while for their soul to leave their body.  Specifically in My Bloody Valentine, when that body was on the slab and Cas said his soul hadn't been harvested yet. OK, technically that could have been because Famine did something to it.  But, we don't really know, on SPN, how long it is between dying and soul getting to its final destination.  If God brought Cas back before he got to the Empty all of those times, The Empty would have never been involved.  Plus, I find it hard to believe that God is powerless anywhere.  He must have created the Empty in the first place.

But Cas is an angel; do angels even have souls? I thought that souls were a human thing?

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

But Cas is an angel; do angels even have souls? I thought that souls were a human thing?

Well, he doesn't have a  soul, but he obviously has a something that went to the Empty.

[trxr4kids]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

But Cas is an angel; do angels even have souls? I thought that souls were a human thing?

Well they shouldn't but we've had a graceless Cas before and he certainly didn't act soulless. Then again it's Cas so I'm going to say he's just that special that normal angel rules don't apply to him other than always having to wear the same suit for reasons.

 

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, he doesn't have a  soul, but he obviously has a something that went to the Empty.

I still can't get past that the Empty isn't empty <eye roll > were they just outta names to gives dimensions that day or what, I dunno.

[DeeDee79]

58 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, he doesn't have a  soul, but he obviously has a something that went to the Empty.

I know that angels and demons are supposed to end up in the empty after death. I was questioning the part of your post that mentioned the time between a soul dying and reaching its destination and how that would apply to Cas when he’s not even supposed to have a soul.

[Katy M]

50 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I know that angels and demons are supposed to end up in the empty after death. I was questioning the part of your post that mentioned the time between a soul dying and reaching its destination and how that would apply to Cas when he’s not even supposed to have a soul.

My point remains that whatever it is that Cas has that goes to the Empty may have a time lag before getting there.

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

My point remains that whatever it is that Cas has that goes to the Empty may have a time lag before getting there.

I wasn’t disputing your point.

[patty1h]

I hope this is the appropriate thread to ask this, but can someone remind me what happened to that girl who had the power to see "the other side"?   She was in a couple of eps and then... zip.  I can't say that I've paid 100% attention to the 2nd half of the season, but I realize that I just don't remember what happened to her.  I remember she had a part in getting S&D into AU world - that's when we saw those huge dinosaur looking footprints.  Did she die there or did her character "disappear" and may show up in the future when the brothers need help again?

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, patty1h said:

I hope this is the appropriate thread to ask this, but can someone remind me what happened to that girl who had the power to see "the other side"?   She was in a couple of eps and then... zip.  I can't say that I've paid 100% attention to the 2nd half of the season, but I realize that I just don't remember what happened to her.  I remember she had a part in getting S&D into AU world - that's when we saw those huge dinosaur looking footprints.  Did she die there or did her character "disappear" and may show up in the future when the brothers need help again?

The girl's name is Kaia and she was part of the "Wayward Sisters" spin-off cast. Yes, I believe she either died or was left behind in that dinosaur world. I imagine that she wasn't shown again because the showrunner hoped to have "Wayward Sisters" picked up as a series next season and tell her story then. However, it was not picked up, so we may see her character in the future on Supernatural, or more likely, she may not appear again if they are not going to other worlds.

[SueB]

@Lrdmordain

I'll take a stab...

1) Like others... it does appear to be a time thing.  BUT, inparticular in Swan Song, we see Cas still in the process of physically restoring and then he zooms back together... so, I don't know how or where it happened but God fixed him immediately.
2) Sensing Nephilim -- they made a point that Lucifer's child was a bigger deal than a run-of-the-mill Nephilim so she may not have had as large of ripple effect.  But she also wasn't suped up compared to Castiel.  So... I'm going with initially vague plot point that didn't have enough "rules" (besides 'abomination') attached which would then explicitly conflict future story - so perhaps they feel they had to"patch the potential plot holes" they created.  Not a good answer, just what I suspect happened.
3) Reversing Crowley's power.  Theoretically, one of the angel minions who studied the cage in great detail was the one who started fiddling with Lucifer's "body" to get him free.  At somepoint the fiddling causes a 'polarization' reversal and Luci started gaining power rather than losing it.  Uber-plotonium IMO.  Poorly handled with some hand-wavy stuff.
4) What others said -- and ghosts have been possessing humans on Supernatural since the insane pychiatrist did it to Sam in Asylum.
 

@patty1h

The only thing I'd add is that we saw Kaia's evil counterpart from The Bad Place come through. So some of us had hope she didn't actually die in the AU and it was like Charlie & Dark Charlie from S10.  

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Bitch vs Jerk" Thread as this is neither Bitchy nor Jerky (discuss amongst yourselves):

33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It really is hard to keep straight who knew what and when. I was basing myself on the alleged direction S3 would've gone if they'd had the full 22-23 episodes, that Sam was going darkside. So that says to me that dark things were coming for Sam, regardless.

I am still not sure who, exactly, was doing all the resurrecting, pre-angels. If I recall correctly, the crossroads deals we saw were about saving a life, not restoring it. When John asked if he could save Dean, Azazel said no, but he knew someone who could. I don't think he was being cagey about his own abilities there. And who brought Sam back? Lilith? Have we ever seen a demon have the power of resurrection?

I don't think so? Or at least not that I can recall. A demon can inhabit a dead body and "reanimate" it - like Ruby did when she recycled - but as soon as the demon leaves, the body returns to being dead. Damaged bodies - i.e. mortally wounded ones - also die after the demon leaves.

I have seen it argued that demons could maybe fix damaged or mortally wounded host bodies, but just don't because they don't give a crap, but I personally think it would be easier for them to heal their host bodies - and have a more "comfortable" host - rather than have to hop into another one. And Ruby, especially, had a good reason to heal / resurrect her second body if she could, but she couldn't, and apparently Lilith didn't help her in that regard either even though Ruby was working for Lilith. So I tend to think that - as Azazel implied - healing mortally wounded bodies and raising the dead is beyond the demon paygrade, and that only angels can do it.

Angels also apparently are the only ones who can get a soul out of hell? And Death. And maybe Reapers and Fairies. Which is odd considering that demons manipulate souls in hell... so I'm less sure about that one, and maybe Castiel didn't know what he was talking about when he said something in that regard (I think? Now I'm forgetting what we know versus don't know.)

And so while the writers changing canon - or at least twisting it - in regards to Reapers being some sort of screwed up angels (am I remembering that rightly?) is annoying, I guess it makes some sort of sense in the vein of only angels can resurrect bodies / people. But then that makes me wonder if Death was also some sort of omnipotent godlike presence and he made his own version of angels... and they came out Reapers?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So I tend to think that - as Azazel implied - healing mortally wounded bodies and raising the dead is beyond the demon paygrade, and that only angels can do it.

I agree with your interpretations and reasoning. So the questions remain a) who actually healed Dean (for Azazel & John's deal), and more puzzling, b) who resurrected Sam?

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with your interpretations and reasoning. So the questions remain a) who actually healed Dean (for Azazel & John's deal), and more puzzling, b) who resurrected Sam?

Well, we find out later that Crowley was a crossroads demon as well as Lilith's right hand man. Also, Lilith wanted the 1st seal broken so she wanted Dean to a) be alive so he could later make the deal when he needed it for Sam and b) was willing to have Sam ( who was her rival ) be resurrected in order for Dean to make the deal that would put the righteous man in hell. In conclusion my money is on Crowley being the one to do the healing and resurrecting since they are within the bounds of crossroads deals as we see later when Bobby retains his ability to walk.

[BabySpinach]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with your interpretations and reasoning. So the questions remain a) who actually healed Dean (for Azazel & John's deal), and more puzzling, b) who resurrected Sam?

I've always gotten the impression that demon deals went beyond the scope of what demons could regularly do, maybe because of the human soul powering it. Deals can also imbue someone with prodigious talent/wealth/looks/health/whatever, which is not in the typical demon's repertoire. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I've always gotten the impression that demon deals went beyond the scope of what demons could regularly do, maybe because of the human soul powering it. Deals can also imbue someone with prodigious talent/wealth/looks/health/whatever, which is not in the typical demon's repertoire. 

I think that's definitely true and I feel that we got proof of that in Two Minutes to Midnight when Crowley went to Bobby and said he needed him to sell his soul so that he could get Death's location.  That was apparently something Crowley couldn't do.  Unless a deal was made.  Also, Azazel said demons couldn't resurrect people unless a deal was made, which would also point to the deals being the power and not the demons.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So the questions remain a) who actually healed Dean

They showed this in In My Time of Dying.  Azazel tells John he know someone that can fix Dean.  We later see him possess Tessa the reaper.

I'm guessing it was something similar for Sam.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with your interpretations and reasoning. So the questions remain a) who actually healed Dean (for Azazel & John's deal), and more puzzling, b) who resurrected Sam?

I can only guess - as @Katy M described - that the deal itself holds some sort of power and allows everything to happen. As for who or what is able to do the deed once the deal is made... maybe a reaper? We saw in "Faith" that a spell could compel a reaper to take the healthy energy from one person and transfer it to another person, healing them. Maybe via a deal, a reaper is able to heal or resurrect without having to have a "donating" energy. So maybe reapers can do healing and resurrecting, but wouldn't normally do so unless compelled to do so via a deal.

[gonzosgirrl]

I dunno. I can accept that Azazel used Tessa to put Dean back in his body, but healing him? I guess with some mental gymnastics I could accept that she was an angel all along (retcon!) then it's possible he could've used her grace to heal Dean. I'm not so sure about it being Crowley who resurrected Sam. I don't think he'd have been able to keep that one to himself in all his speechifying over the years.

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think that's definitely true and I feel that we got proof of that in Two Minutes to Midnight when Crowley went to Bobby and said he needed him to sell his soul so that he could get Death's location.  That was apparently something Crowley couldn't do.  Unless a deal was made. 

I didn't interpret it that way. Crowley says he needs Bobby's soul for a spell - basically granting Bobby's wish to know where Death is. Personally, given his double-cross (not returning the soul) and Crowley's nature, I'd be more apt to believe he didn't need the soul at all, he just found it amusing. (Kinda like Rocket in Guardians of the Galaxy 'needing' a guys prosthetic leg, lol).

Quote

BOBBY You know where Death is?

CROWLEY No. Haven't the foggiest.

(Bobby cocks his shotgun and aims it at Crowley)

BOBBY Well, then get the hell off my property before I blast you so full of rock salt, you crap margaritas.

CROWLEY That's a mite unfriendly, seeing as I could be getting you Death's location in about the time it'd take you to reload.

BOBBY You're just gonna chat some demons up and hope they don't recognize you?

CROWLEY God, no. That could get me killed. But there is this little spell that I know.

BOBBY That so?

CROWLEY Results are 100% guaranteed.

BOBBY Okay. Then why are you snake-oiling me?

CROWLEY Well, it's a little bit...embarrassing. There's this...technicality.

BOBBY Uh-huh.

CROWLEY I need a little something to get the magic going.

BOBBY And what's that?

CROWLEY You make a wish. I can give you anything you want, mate -- Up to and including Death's coordinates. All I need is...

BOBBY My soul.

CROWLEY I've done more with less. Let's just say when they're getting their Grammys, they shouldn't all be thanking God. It's worth it, Bobby. Think.

BOBBY Okay. Here's my counter. (Bobby shoots Crowley with the shotgun)

CROWLEY Ow! Bloody hell! Feisty.

BOBBY Get out.

CROWLEY I'll give it right back.

BOBBY You think I'm a natural-born idjit?

CROWLEY Quite the contrary. Look, you're right to be suspicious. But I'm your ally. Enemy of my enemy and all that. I need the devil back in his stock. In fact, my delicate ass depends on it. I promise you --temporary loan. I'll give it...Right...Back.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Crowley says he needs Bobby's soul for a spell - basically granting Bobby's wish to know where Death is. Personally, given his double-cross (not returning the soul) and Crowley's nature, I'd be more apt to believe he didn't need the soul at all, he just found it amusing.

But Crowley also added healing Bobby's paralysis in there - which not even Castiel could do at that point - so that at least would have required a deal. It could be that that was the real reason Crowley needed the deal part and loan of the soul, or he actually could have needed it for both. Either way he did get greedy and not want to give it back later on.

[Myrelle]

What about the resurrection of Grandpa Shady AKA Marys' father in season 6? Wasn't that Crowley's doing with no deal involved?

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

What about the resurrection of Grandpa Shady AKA Marys' father in season 6? Wasn't that Crowley's doing with no deal involved?

Maybe because he was king of hell at the point it was a matter of just freeing one of the souls that he already had? 

[Katy M]

42 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

What about the resurrection of Grandpa Shady AKA Marys' father in season 6? Wasn't that Crowley's doing with no deal involved?

Or he added a rider to someone else's deal.  

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Maybe because he was king of hell at the point it was a matter of just freeing one of the souls that he already had? 

This I can see, but IMO, that means that there's at least one demon who can resurrect a soul w/o the need/necessity of a deal. So power-wise in this one area that makes the King of Hell's powers somewhat akin to the powers of an archangel, Death , or any reaper if it's assumed that PossessedByAzazelTessa was the one who resurrected Dean in IMTOD-which I always thought to be the case.

Do we know who the King of Hell was before Crowley?

[catrox14]

I thought that Azazel was the KoH and then it was open season after he died, because neither Dagon nor Ramiel wanted to do it thus Crowley getting it because he said yes first.

[Myrelle]

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Well, the only thing I can think of is that Azazel couldn't touch the Veil(which means he also probably couldn't touch Heaven); so he had to get a reaper to bring Dean back from there in IMTOD. And it also might be another reason why Crowley would have wanted rogue reapers on his payroll. I think that was how they explained Bobby being in Hell in the episode that's better off left Unnamed, wasn't it?

[Airmid]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with your interpretations and reasoning. So the questions remain a) who actually healed Dean (for Azazel & John's deal), and more puzzling, b) who resurrected Sam?

 

It's made even more confusing if one considers Crossroad Blues - the CRD offered to bring John back to Dean. She tempts him, offers him ten years, and then laughs when he gets her to suspend the other contract (the one he's out there to nullify), revealing that John made a deal to save Dean's life. 

So, was she lying when she offered to bring John back? Could she do it, sans body (seeing as they gave him a hunter's funeral) or that she could get a reaper to help due to a deal being made? When is it considered too late to bring back a dead human, or is it ever? Did heaven ever have an issue with this, let alone hell, when humans were brought back? 

Plus, Azazel brings John back to Mary after killing him in order for her to make the deal. Did he take over a reaper then, too? Was John just milling around by his body and easy to bring back?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I thought that Azazel was the KoH and then it was open season after he died, because neither Dagon nor Ramiel wanted to do it thus Crowley getting it because he said yes first.

3

Wasn't Lilith in the lead then? As Azazel put it, she was buried 'neck deep' in the pit, but it seemed to imply that she was both a lot tougher to kill and more important than yellow eyes. Even after the later bit about the yellow eyes denoting a Prince of Hell, wasn't Lilith before all of them, making her older, more powerful, and more important (given her status as the last seal and needing extra effort to murder) than any other demon at that point?

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

What about the resurrection of Grandpa Shady AKA Marys' father in season 6? Wasn't that Crowley's doing with no deal involved?

I have the headcanon that before the decision to not make Cas irredeemable to the show, it was Cas that dug up Grandpa Shady. He may have assumed it was due to a demon deal, but I could see Cas being the one capable of creating the body needed to plant grandpa back on earth. 

I, like some others over the years, have wondered if Grandpa Shady was actually in hell - which meant that Crowley could have had better/easier access to his soul in order to bring him back over other humans that could have been helpful, including Mary. Though, I also subscribe to the theory that early in S6, they wrote Cas like he knew Sam done come back wrong and was just using him to get what he needed before things were changed around. 

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Well, the only thing I can think of is that Azazel couldn't touch the Veil(which means he also probably couldn't touch Heaven); so he had to get a reaper to bring Dean back from there in IMTOD. And it also might be another reason why Crowley would have wanted rogue reapers on his payroll. I think that was how they explained Bobby being in Hell in the episode that's better off left Unnamed, wasn't it?

I agree with this.  If Azazel could just resurrect, he wouldn't have needed Tessa.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

Wasn't Lilith in the lead then? A

That could be. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

I, like some others over the years, have wondered if Grandpa Shady was actually in hell - which meant that Crowley could have had better/easier access to his soul in order to bring him back over other humans that could have been helpful, including Mary. Though, I also subscribe to the theory that early in S6, they wrote Cas like he knew Sam done come back wrong and was just using him to get what he needed before things were changed around. 

This raises another question which is probably better for the All Seasons thread.

[DittyDotDot]

On 9/6/2018 at 3:34 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I have seen it argued that demons could maybe fix damaged or mortally wounded host bodies, but just don't because they don't give a crap, but I personally think it would be easier for them to heal their host bodies - and have a more "comfortable" host - rather than have to hop into another one.

Yeah, my personal belief is they can't heal the bodies they inhabit permanently, but can temporarily while they are in it--like Meg did in S1. 

But, to the original question, to my knowledge we've never seen a demon resurrection--as in the demon being killed and coming back, not the demon resurrecting a body to possess again--like with Abaddon. But, then again, we never saw an angel resurrection previously until this season with Cass, so it's probably not out of the range of possibilities it could happen.

[Lrdmordain]

Ok, I'm working my way through Season 14, up to episode 9 now, and I have a few questions regarding plot threads, in no particular order, I don't recall being solved yet.

1. What was the consequence of Cas breaking the deal with Reaper Billie? As I recall it was supposed to have some universal bad effect but I cannot recall anything having come of it.

2. How was Michael able to stay in Dean after dean told him to get out? They have repeatedly stated that it takes consent for an angel to be there, hell the whole episode with trying to get Sam to throw out his angel proved that the host saying get out makes the angel have to leave, so why does Michael get the pass? Is this another rules don't apply to archangels thing?

3. How come Lucifer, when he was draining grace from other angels and jack, didn't get sick and dying like Cas did when he stole another angel's grace? Same as above? Archangels are immune to rules?

4.  What happened the Michael army from the alt world? They kept saying he had an army ready to invade, Lucifer somehow made him the portal spell using ingredients that shouldn't have existed in that world, but we never see anything of his army.

5. They said, in season 13 I think, that there were single digit angel numbers remaining and if even 1 more angel died heaven would shut down, but in the season 14 episode where The Empty invades heaven we clearly see a male angel dead so shouldn't heaven be shut down? He was found by Cas along with Jo from Eureka.

And lastly not so much a question but a point that really stupidly pointlessly bother me personally. They said Metatron's heaven locking spell could NEVER EVER EVER be undone yet somehow in the empty invading episode they're suddenly just undone out of nowhere? That is crap of the utmost variety. I know the answer is probably the empty blew open all the doors so to speak when it broke in but no, that's not what happened, you just cheated and broke your own rule and I slightly hate you for it.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Lrdmordain

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

Ok, I'm working my way through Season 14, up to episode 9 now, and I have a few questions regarding plot threads, in no particular order, I don't recall being solved yet.

1. What was the consequence of Cas breaking the deal with Reaper Billie? As I recall it was supposed to have some universal bad effect but I cannot recall anything having come of it.

2. How was Michael able to stay in Dean after dean told him to get out? They have repeatedly stated that it takes consent for an angel to be there, hell the whole episode with trying to get Sam to throw out his angel proved that the host saying get out makes the angel have to leave, so why does Michael get the pass? Is this another rules don't apply to archangels thing?

3. How come Lucifer, when he was draining grace from other angels and jack, didn't get sick and dying like Cas did when he stole another angel's grace? Same as above? Archangels are immune to rules?

4.  What happened the Michael army from the alt world? They kept saying he had an army ready to invade, Lucifer somehow made him the portal spell using ingredients that shouldn't have existed in that world, but we never see anything of his army.

5. They said, in season 13 I think, that there were single digit angel numbers remaining and if even 1 more angel died heaven would shut down, but in the season 14 episode where The Empty invades heaven we clearly see a male angel dead so shouldn't heaven be shut down? He was found by Cas along with Jo from Eureka.

And lastly not so much a question but a point that really stupidly pointlessly bother me personally. They said Metatron's heaven locking spell could NEVER EVER EVER be undone yet somehow in the empty invading episode they're suddenly just undone out of nowhere? That is crap of the utmost variety. I know the answer is probably the empty blew open all the doors so to speak when it broke in but no, that's not what happened, you just cheated and broke your own rule and I slightly hate you for it.

1. There was nothing.

2. That was never explained.  Possibly his archangelness.

3. Lucifer still had his own grace, but it was weak.  So, he was charging it with new grace. Cas didn't have his grace at all and completely replaced it with other grace.

4. I think he left them behind because he was sick of them:)

5. I remember them saying that it was in single digits (actually I think there might have been 10 or 12), but I don't remember anybody saying one more and that's it.  The remaining x-1 will just have to work that much harder.  Metatron was the only one in Heaven for much of season 9 and he was able to keep Heaven running.

Don't get me started on the whole stupidity of locking Heaven down. In order for reapers to bring souls up, they now have to bring them all to the special elevator first. But, Naomi said (in the same episode with the 9 angels left in Heaven epi) that they were closing the gates and nobody else in or out.  But, Jack went up when he died.  We know that for a fact.

[SueB]

I agree with @Katy M for the bulk of the answers but will add a few more thoughts:

1. First, Billy wasn't SUPPOSED to be making deals in the first place.  And she hated the Winchesters, so she was manipulating the situation to allow her to 'take' a life (against the 'rules' they've said in the past).  So... she's flat-out an unreliable narrator.  But Dean took her seriously.  So suppose she was right.  Well, when Dean played "Death" in S6, he saved one life but a bunch of others started happening instead.  THAT kind of Butterfly effect maybe what she was talking about.  Except Death was dead.  And killing Billie actually FIXED an issue Dean had caused.  So... maybe Billie knew something cosmic would happen -- she just didn't know that the 'cosmic' thing was that she would replace Death.  Kinda poetic.  Because at the end of the day, she was misbehaving in the first place by helping them out.  It's a TOTAL FANWANK but I think it works.  In sum,  Billy knew something cosmic would happen -- turns out it was that she became Death.  Poetic.  But never verified on the show as a direct consequence.

2. Gadreel had to be physically defeated in Sam's 'mindscape' for Sam to eject him.  They didn't physically defeat him, they locked him up.  Rewatching, you see Dean specifically go open the cooler door -- he was thinking ahead in the fight, he does that - and then between he, Sam, and Cas, they got Michael into the cooler.  But it was also Dean who put the 'lock' on the door.  I think it wouldn't have worked if Dean hadn't been the 'architect' and final locker of the mindscape cage.   

[juppschmitz]

5 hours ago, Lrdmordain said:

along with Jo from Eureka

😂 that's who the actress will always be to me, too. She was in Sam's split personality episode in s6 or 7 as well.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

I absolutely agree with #2. At that point in the fight it isn't even about conviction, because their focus has changed to trapping him, they don't even try to eject him at the end. But I was thinking of the earlier mirror scene, where Dean gets to quite clearly say "get out" and it doesn't work (IMO that scene would have worked better as some kind of headache flash-into Dean drowning, given what comes later).

Yes, that's what I was thinking, and by the show's rules it should have worked.  And, what was worse was the whole back door thing.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

Despite all her rules she has also been quite self serving, plays a manipulative need-to-know with her advice, and breaks them on her own judgement.

Which was pretty much what the original Death did also. 

[SueB]

56 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which was pretty much what the original Death did also. 

Death was her mentor -- no seriously, I she was the one who made herself visible to Sam.  I kinda thought she was the 'leader' (by group opinion or previous relationship w/ Death) of the Reapers.  

2 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

The back door thing is extra annoying because to me the implied open door would be grace left behind, something which is strengthened by Michael's display of control over the monsters who also have his grace. 

Except we already established that some grace can/does get left behind when an angel leaves, yet we see Gadreel get kicked out of Sam & require a second yes even though (Tamoh) probably had some too.

Maybe it is just an archangel thing, or a forward planning thing. Or perhaps the amount of power it requires to be able to split more of it and maintain contact over long distance is just something only archangels can usually do - Raphael had a direct line to his vessel too, and can a catatonic man really give a second yes either? Maybe the writers looked at Raphael and thought well obviously the answer should be no, so there must be something else that can happen here...

They had Michael monologue long enough they could have been a little more specific 😞

[not to mention that they never showed how or if they verified that Dean was actually Dean again either time, and why they wouldn't have picked up on that]

I think it's an archangel thing like you are suggesting.  And AUMichael showed himself adept at getting in people's heads so this may have been a power he innately had or honed over the eons.  Abbadon had that weird partial smoke into someone to get answers manuever.  So having 'features' for individuals on the higher scale of the species is pretty well established.  And just cause Lucifer didn't do it doesn't mean that Michael was limited.  Lucifer was 1) beaten by Michael in both universes and 2) Locked in a cage for eons.  

[Pondlass1]

The bit that's always got me perplexed is years ago when Cas couldn't tell Sam was soulless.  He was as confused as everyone else until he rummaged around in Sam's stomach.

Meanwhile the Alpha Vampire, the 'Truth God' woman, the Fairies, (and others, I think) could tell right away just by looking at Sam.  

As angels deal in souls  and heaven and stuff, how come Cas was clueless?

There's a zillion other WTF's too I guess? It's more apparent when you binge (as I did at that time) because an episode that was aired years ago, is only last week and very fresh in the mind when one binges.  The WTFs stick out like a sore thumb. LOL

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The bit that's always got me perplexed is years ago when Cas couldn't tell Sam was soulless.  He was as confused as everyone else until he rummaged around in Sam's stomach.

Meanwhile the Alpha Vampire, the 'Truth God' woman, the Fairies, (and others, I think) could tell right away just by looking at Sam.  

As angels deal in souls  and heaven and stuff, how come Cas was clueless?

Knowing what we know now, I always figured he was just hiding it, but once pressed to diagnose him, decided he had to spill the beans.  He was also in the same room as Christian and didn't let anyone know he was a demon (not that a demon should have been able to walk around hunters for a year undetected).

I've always said that the supernatural beings have some kind of agreement not to spill the beans on stuff until the timing is right.

For instance, Sam and Ruby having sex in season 4.  Ghost Meg knew because she made a snide comment to Sam in ARe You There when they were alone. Had she really wanted to cause trouble she would have said something to Dean.  Then, as soon as Sam confesses it Uriel says something in front of Dean. But, not until Dean already knew.  Nobody caught onto soulless SAm until Cas told them, then Alpha vamps, and leprechauns are commenting on it right and left.  Maybe it's some of that red tape Yellow Eyes hates so much.

Add to that are we really supposed to believe that Cas and Crowley, not to mention any other demon or angel they encountered the first half of season 9 could tell there was an angel inside of Sam?  I don't care if he was letting Sam drive or not, I would still think he would be somewhat visible.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Katy M

[SueB]

Cas pretty sketchy AND ditracted in S6.  I can handwave it.

Not seeing Gadreel?  I'm thinking the angel was hiding maybe.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Cas pretty sketchy AND ditracted in S6.  I can handwave it.

Yes, Castiel knew something was off about Sam as soon as he saw the creepy way that Sam looked in on Dean and then walked away (In the flashback in "The Man Who Would Be King"), but he had too many other things to be concerned about to do more than think "hmmm, that's unexpected," and then move on. rather than look into it. I guess you could also say that maybe he didn't want to look a gift horse in the mouth and/or would rather be ignorant than know actually what the deal was, but considering he didn't really find the time any time in that year to check things out or even see what Sam was up to - which it wouldn't have taken much investigation to figure out that = bad - in general Sam wasn't much of a priority at that time anymore.

Castiel likely figured he did Sam a favor by getting him out of the cage, but now heaven's state, the civil war, and stopping Raphael from starting the apocalypse again were much more important. (Except all he really would have had to do was tell Dean, and Dean would've figured out Sam, but maybe Castiel couldn't handle Dean at that time and/or didn't want to prod fresh wounds.)

Despite all that Castiel did learn from Dean and Sam, I don't think he really understood what it was to be a human being until he lost his grace and became like one himself for a while, so that likely accounted for his actions a bit in season 6.

As he said later (in season 9 or 10, I think), he could eat the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but as an angel, it just tasted like molecules, so maybe he could feel some of the emotions in season 6, but they weren't really deep enough to make him act on them. Castiel could see that Dean was in pain, and wanted to help, but that's as far as it went in terms of the effort eventually not being worth risking time away from what he needed to do.