S06.E05: Season 6, Episode 5

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I really like Tom's evolution. Younger Tom in an earlier season would have started a fight with the health minister at dinner about the way the government is oppressing its people (heh, although I suppose Violet had "contentious dinner fight" covered) and then after Robert was taken away he would have scampered off. Now he feels comfortable sending off a government official and even chatting with him to find out how Violet got him to come to Downton in the first place.

[RedWolf]

Why? Was she entitled somehow to be told about Marigold? Was Tom her special confidante at the time? Does she even CARE about knowing about Marigold? Because I kind of think not. It's just some drama of Edith's. It's really nothing to do with Mary.

Actually they were each others special confidante by the christmas special last series (which is when Tom asks Edith if Marigold is hers). If you watch series five there are many moments were Mary or Tom tell each other something personal. There's the scene in episode 3 where Mary tells Tom that she has decided that Tony isn't the right one for her (he is the first person she has told this to) and he tells her that he doesn't know what to do but asks her to support him in both his plan for America and concerning Miss. Bunting. There are a couple other scenes, but I won't go into specifics.

 

Now whether she is entitled to know is a different question. I think that at first, no she didn't need to know, but once it had to do with tenants leaving the Estate because of it, yes she should have been told as it affected her job as the Estate agent. Should Tom be the one to tell her (IMO) no, it should be Edith who tells her. Whether she cares or not we shall see next episode. 

Edited October 20, 2015 by RedWolf

[DianeDobbler]

Really good episode, all the way through, for almost all of the characters. I'm sure I've shoved some things aside but they didn't stick.

 

I think Mary/Tom are as good as a done deal. She has next to no scenes with her supposed new love interest. I think after Fellowes tossed three suitors at her that previous season and it completely laid an egg, it was a done deal to marry Rose off in haste (who I DO think was set for Tom) and hustle her off the show, and then Tom/Mary are the Finale. I don't imagine there will be a declaration til the ultimate episode. She has said she doesn't want to be grander or richer than her husband, but Tom is a different case. He's family, and will be co-running the estate with her. It's really not uncommon among that set for a sister to marry a deceased sister's husband. In a contemporary show it might be annoying, but I think it was really common among the aristocracy. Tom and Mary have the sort of chemistry where one can imagine they've been married quite some time, versus that amped up romantic chemistry, but it's believable. I can see the show finessing the declaration of affections so it sells. I doubt it's going to be a drawn out thing - more a "finale" sort of quick thing that appears inevitable in retrospect. The odd thing is that she and Tom are far more harmonious when it comes to Downton than she and Matthew were, or maybe it's that Tom is unflappable and uses humor, whereas she'd get under Matthew's skin. Tom also knows how to inject tact into situations to help smooth Mary's intentions along when she's quizzing somebody.

 

Loved the ulcer mess - directed really well. They pulled that one off - very dramatic, really worked. Still, Hugh Bonneville still comes across as merely middle-aged - too young too have the youngER folks take over. He's in his prime.

 

When Mary overheard about Marigold, my impression, from how Dockery played it and seemed to be directed, was that she suspected the truth, and if she does, then Edith runs far deeper and is much stronger than Mary ever suspected, and it takes Mary aback. That's what I got from her. As well, Edith is off with her own life, not hanging round looking for validation. I think the respect her father is FINALLY showing her, that is genuine and consistent, is a terrific development.

 

Fellowes has certainly rubbished his almost knee-jerk slagging off on Edith. In past seasons even when he sort of gave her a few wins, he couldn't help emphasizing she was much the second best. Here, Edith has definitely been given an A+, varsity love interest. In the past, with Gregson, I felt that, while they loved each other, he was absolutely a "B" story type guy, a bit older, not dashing. Bertie is Mary-calibre in the suitor department. He's funny, he's sophisticated, and since he knows the apartment belonged to Michael, I imagine that when the Marigold situation is revealed, he won't fall over in shock. Remember when whatisname knew that Gillingham and Mary had had sex - it happens.

 

It's funny how Dockery is the female lead, but Carmichael has more natural chemistry with more men on the show, IMO. She had chemistry with Dan Stevens as well, chemistry with Allen Leech, chemistry with most people you put her with. Edith seems comfortable in her skin, sure of herself in her life, not envious of Mary's entitlements. She's very confident with the asking Bertie to the apartment for a drink.

 

Also liked Thomas offering to teach Andy to read, and Thomas in general seeming to have come a long way in the loyalty he gets from others. He HAS been there forever. It would be a little much to have everybody side eyeing him still after twelve years.

[Hecate7]

Actually they were each others special confidante by the christmas special last series (which is when Tom asks Edith if Marigold is hers). If you watch series five there are many moments were Mary or Tom tell each other something personal. There's the scene in episode 3 where Mary tells Tom that she has decided that Tony isn't the right one for her (he is the first person she has told this to) and he tells her that he doesn't know what to do but asks her to support him in both his plan for America and concerning Miss. Bunting. There are a couple other scenes, but I won't go into specifics.

 

Now whether she is entitled to know is a different question. I think that at first, no she didn't need to know, but once it had to do with tenants leaving the Estate because of it, yes she should have been told as it affected her job as the Estate agent. Should Tom be the one to tell her (IMO) no, it should be Edith who tells her. Whether she cares or not we shall see next episode. 

 

If, as Marigold's Aunt and Edith's sister, it wasn't her business, then it certainly wasn't her business as the estate agent. That certainly isn't a detail Edith or any of the other Crawleys would normally share with the estate agent, no matter what impact it had on the tenants. It's honestly not her business, but there may come a time when the rest of the family decide that Marigold is entitled to know, and decide for herself who else should know.

[RedWolf]

If, as Marigold's Aunt and Edith's sister, it wasn't her business, then it certainly wasn't her business as the estate agent. That certainly isn't a detail Edith or any of the other Crawleys would normally share with the estate agent, no matter what impact it had on the tenants. It's honestly not her business, but there may come a time when the rest of the family decide that Marigold is entitled to know, and decide for herself who else should know.

I see your point.

[Ide]

That Bertie and Edith kissed made me extremely happy. I already liked him in the CS last year.

 

I hope that Talbot guy won't work out, he's so one-dimensional. Just because he like fast cars doesn't make him interesting or exciting. The one thing that is good about that character though is that he isn't so lovey-dovey about marry. That's what I liked about Blake. It's good that once in a while she doesn't get everything served on a silver tray.

 

Still Team Napier!

Edited October 20, 2015 by Ide

[saki]

Some thoughts on this episode - 

 

I couldn't decide how I felt about Robert's zombie moment.  It was a bit weird and out of place on this show but, on the other hand, it did have genuine shock value.

 

Thought the Baxter storyline was massively anticlimactic - I can't believe we didn't even see the guy after all of that.

 

I didn't find Carson being horrible to Mrs Hughes very surprising - he was always going to be that kind of husband - but I did feel like they could do more with this storyline.  It would be more interesting if both of them found the transition from a busy servants hall where they're in charge to their own quiet cottage difficult.

 

I enjoyed the scene settling Mr Mason into his farm.  With the scene back at the house, I initially thought Daisy wasn't jealous so much as feeling bad about Mr Mason being lonely, given that he has asked her to move in with him multiple times.  The actor playing Mr Mason is excellent - I find it really impressive that he can say things like "move in with me, I'm lonely" to an actress under half his age and you don't get a hint of creepy!

 

I loved Edith in London, as always, particularly her outfits which were all glorious.

 

I did think there was a spot of bromance between Tom and Talbot - "if I'd known earlier, you could have had a go" - which made me giggle.

 

As ever, there were some really bad bits of dialogue which mostly seemed to go to Tom.  "There’s no such thing as safe motor racing. And there’s no such thing as safe love" was bad enough but then he was like that little kid with the backpack in Sleepless in Seattle with Talbot and Mary at the pub "why can't you just admit you like each other".  Awkward.

 

Bertie Pelham on the other hand seems to get good writing - I rather enjoyed his little monologue on his cousin!

 

Thought it was hilarious that, even after overhearing Violet and Cora, Mary still hasn't quite figured out the Marigold thing..  She's not going to get a detective spin-off...  I think she will mostly be upset at having been "left out" of this - I think it will annoy her that her entire family has known about this for some time and that even the servants have all figured it out.

[DianeDobbler]

The actor playing Mr Mason is excellent - I find it really impressive that he can say things like "move in with me, I'm lonely" to an actress under half his age and you don't get a hint of creepy!

 

 

Yes. Always meant to say that. The actor is terrific. I clocked that line as well - "You move in here with me, Daisy" and how it's nothing but fatherly. He steers completely clear of any neediness. I recall a few seasons back he had a speech about his kids all being dead, and was sort of pitching to Daisy about being a surrogate daughter, so he had somebody to pray for. It was simply genuine, intelligent, heartfelt, and not the least emotional blackmail-y or icky. 

[MissLucas]

I'm really intrigued where they are going with the Marigold subplot.

 

Mary's last scenes this episode all had a vibe of isolation going on. When she returns with Edith and Edith tells her she's going to look after the children Mary's response is 'Of course you are' and there's not a hint of the usual snark, she sounds defeated. This is followed by the brief exchange with Tom who is unusually sarcastic with his 'So long live our own Queen Mary'. He leaves her and there's a beautiful shot of her standing all alone under an arch in the stairway - beautiful cinematography, it looked for a moment like a medieval painting. Mary's last scene is of course with her other confidante, Anna, who is clearly not telling her everything she could. The episode ends with Mary staring at her own reflection in the mirror.

 

I think it's clear that Mary has figured out Marigold's identity and that everybody except her already knew. And that must hurt her on many levels. We all expect her to lash out, everything else would be a surprise - but if played right the conflict around Marigold could turn into a true catharsis for Mary. Once she gets her outrage out of her system she might be forced to face a couple of hard questions about herself and that could be one hell of a ride to watch.

[Avaleigh]

Tom and Mary are not balanced, as Tom says. You might think they would be, based on the mutual respect and friendship that we've seen them build, but Queen Mary eventually would run him over flat if it would suit her. She would remind him that it's her estate, her house, her pigs, etc. Tom doesn't seem like he wants to be a permanent part of the Abbey, either. 

I feel like this episode (and others) demonstrated the opposite. Tom has no problem standing up to Mary. IMO only Tom would have been able to get away with going around her to make sure that Mr. Mason ends up with Yew Tree Farm. Mary accepts it from him even though she admits that it annoyed her. If Edith or Cora had made the comment about Henry and Mary finding excuses to spend time with one another I don't think Mary would have been as good natured about it. There's a clear comfort level between Tom and Mary that is continuing to be established and I don't see a man who is being run over. I see a man who feels that he can be honest with Mary, he can give her his opinions even when they're different from hers, they both encourage the other, Tom gets Mary to reconsider what's important in a relationship--I'm not seeing any evidence that their relationship would be one where she walks all over him. 

[Andorra]

I completely agree Avaleigh. Mary has a great deal of respect for Tom. I thought it was very telling that he is the one now, who can "handle" her and tell her about Mason getting the farm.

 

For me Tom has been "Matthewfied" more and more. He now has Matthew's lines "You're so much nicer than people think" and is the only one who sees "real Mary" just as Matthew did. He also has the same values as Matthew since he now loves capitalism but is still aware of the people working for him and he is able to tease Mary in the same way as Matthew did (remember in the CS, when he said "we can't all be as altrustic as you are, Mary" and she rolled her eyes, but laughed about it. Or his "Youngish?" in the last episode, I thought that was cute, too. 

 

It is telling for me, that he is the one Mary confides in about Tony Gillingham in season 4, about Anna and her miscarriage, about her concerns regarding Talbot and also is the one she will share responsibility with for the estate. After the Robert incident, it is clear to her, that he will stay by her side when it comes to Downton she doesn't even question it! She trusts Tom completely and I think in the end she might find out that this is more important than status and money.

 

BTW, I didn't find Tom at all sarcastic when he said the "Long live our own Queen Mary" line. For me that meant: "So it is clear now, you must take over from your father. I know how much responsibility that will be on your shoulders and I will support you." 

 

I also think it is very telling how much Tom becomes the man of the manor now. The way he behaved with the health minister showed how comfortable he is now and how self confident. The picture in the end, with Tom saying Goodbye to the Minister and with Carson and Molesley for me was a look into the future. 

[photo fox]

I agree that Tom and Mary seem to share a lot of scenes, but I see zero sexual or romantic tension between the two.  Now, maybe that's not a choice; maybe the actors just don't have that kind of chemistry.  But the direction also doesn't lend itself to a romantic pairing.  Where are the long looks, the reaction shots, the accidental touching?  I feel like we've seen that with other pairings on this show  M/M, from their first interaction, had that tension.  So did Banna, Tom/Sybil, etc.

 

I realize it's a little different with established characters, but I think we'd be seeing something by now.  JF isn't that subtle.

[RedWolf]

I feel like this episode (and others) demonstrated the opposite. Tom has no problem standing up to Mary. IMO only Tom would have been able to get away with going around her to make sure that Mr. Mason ends up with Yew Tree Farm. Mary accepts it from him even though she admits that it annoyed her. If Edith or Cora had made the comment about Henry and Mary finding excuses to spend time with one another I don't think Mary would have been as good natured about it. There's a clear comfort level between Tom and Mary that is continuing to be established and I don't see a man who is being run over. I see a man who feels that he can be honest with Mary, he can give her his opinions even when they're different from hers, they both encourage the other, Tom gets Mary to reconsider what's important in a relationship--I'm not seeing any evidence that their relationship would be one where she walks all over him. 

I agree Avaleigh! IMO if she didn't value his opinions or advice she wouldn't have offered to co-work as estate agent or told him that they both needed to take over and only involve Robert in the big decisions (after Tom said they needed to take on more responsibility). She also wants him to be happy in whatever he decides to do (as long as it doesn't involve Miss. Bunting ;) ). That doesn't show somebody who walks all over him, but someone who thinks he is an equal partner in the running of the Estate ( and IMO her best friend if not more).

 

IMO he looks and seems happier and more confidant in who he is then he has been since Sybil died.

[Avaleigh]

I feel like I've seen some longish sort of looks from Tom. It's Mary I'm waiting to see something from as far as her seeing him as something other than a friend and brother. I admit that I haven't seen any physical looks of longing from Mary. 

[Andorra]

I feel like I've seen some longish sort of looks from Tom. It's Mary I'm waiting to see something from as far as her seeing him as something other than a friend and brother. I admit that I haven't seen any physical looks of longing from Mary. 

 

I think it is difficult. I think there's a lot of love between them, so much is for sure, but no sexual tension so far. 

 

I mean to see Tom looking at Mary differently this season. IMO it started with his look when Mary sang at Christmas in last season's CS. I noticed it even in the trailer and was surprised to see him staring at her that way.Julian Fellows always says that he likes to plant the seed for the storylines in the upcoming season in the CS of the year before. So for me that was the first indication. 

 

When he came back from America he mainly spoke his whole explanation that he was going to stay for good towards her. And there were two looks IMO in the last episode. Once after they talk about equality in marriage. Tom stood there thinking for a moment while Mary went ahead. One could argue that Tom was thinking about Sybil, but was he? He could as well have thought about the fact that he doesn't see he would have a chance in hell with Mary.

 

Then again when he told her "There's no slo motion in car racing" he looked over to her, saw her face and then decided to say "And there's no such thing as safe love". I meant he looked a bit "longingly" at her between those sentences. 

 

I think Julian Fellows doesn't want to give it away though. He wants to keep the suspense as long as possible. He is very aware of how his characters are seen in the audience and of the expectations the audience has for them. So I think he likes playing with those expectations but wants to surprise us as much as he can. 

 

And you could always argue that the thought hasn't crossed Mary's mind so far. She sees Tom as her brother. The question is if she will recognize that her feelings run deeper. 

Edited October 20, 2015 by Andorra

[rudystx01]

Theoretical question....How many people would need to die for Bertie to become Lord of Brancaster Castle?

[Andorra]

Most likely just the good "Peter" who seems to be reluctant to marry his cousin and who likes to picture the men in Africa.

 

I mean Edith's prospects are so clear, they couldn't be any clearer. She is going to marry Bertie, Bertie is going to inherit Brancaster and poor Edith will get a fairytale ending and be a Marchioness.

 

And of course it will be the top of the irony if Mary will end up marrying the chauffeur.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Andorra

[minamurray78]

... but if played right the conflict around Marigold could turn into a true catharsis for Mary. Once she gets her outrage out of her system she might be forced to face a couple of hard questions about herself and that could be one hell of a ride to watch.

That's interesting, because in last week's episode, she seemed to come close to that realization, when Gwen brought back memories of Syvil, Mary mentioned to Anna that it made her think about how petty she is and how much a better person Syvil was, and then Anna got a cramp and Mary's train of thought was interrupted.

While I don't expect Mary and Edith to be the best of friends, I think I'd like to see the show ending with Mary finally making good on that promise she made to Edith after Syvil's death, to at least love her like a sister.

I'm not hoping for a miracle, but it'd be a nice bit of character growth for Mary to recognize that her petty behaviour was not only uncalled for, but also that she does care about the barrier it created between her and her only remaining sibling, because she always claims she doesn't care about Edith, and that's pretty cold actually .

Or the writers might just not care about that, and let Mary and Edith part ways as estranged relatives.

 

ETA: Oh, and while I've always favoured Evelyn Napier, I just don't see it happening for him at all either. mary's never seemed even remotely moved by him.

Edited October 20, 2015 by minamurray78

[Kostgard]

When Mary overheard about Marigold, my impression, from how Dockery played it and seemed to be directed, was that she suspected the truth, and if she does, then Edith runs far deeper and is much stronger than Mary ever suspected, and it takes Mary aback. That's what I got from her. As well, Edith is off with her own life, not hanging round looking for validation. I think the respect her father is FINALLY showing her, that is genuine and consistent, is a terrific development.

 

 

 

I agree - I love how Mary is all befuddled because Edith appears to be winning. When Edith tried to demure that her meeting in London wasn't a date and Mary snorted "Of course you don't have a date" Edith just kinda rolled her eyes instead of getting all bent out of shape. She's got a guy interested in her, she's running a magazine (and being all modern and feminist about it by insisting on hiring a female editor), she's got all the family and staff hiding her secrets and she has her parents openly supporting her and even bragging on her instead of just pitying her or shuddering at the thought of Edith caring for them in their old age. I think Mary was far less shocked at the idea of her sister having a secret child than the idea that everyone around her is solidly behind Edith and none of them felt the need to tell her about it. She's used to the universal support and affection while Edith, the stodgy one, is left to pound sand. Now everyone is celebrating Edith while she goes off to live an exciting, modern life in London and Mary is left behind to watch after the pigs. Mary is a traditionalist and would always do her duty, but I do think she feels a twinge of envy that Edith gets to go off and have a fabulous life. I have many issues with Fellowes' writing, but I do like the way he allows his heroine to sometimes be awful and sometimes be straight-up wrong. It makes Mary a better character.

 

As for Mary/Tom, I don't see it for a number of reasons (though that doesn't mean it won't happen - it isn't like Fellowes sticks to logic). She meant it when she said that she would not date/marry below her station. She is very old-fashioned in the regard, and she means it. She had no interest in Blake until she found out he had money. When it looked like Matthew wouldn't inherit, she did (even if briefly) decide to walk away from him (and not just because Violet advised her to do so).  She's not Sybil and she's not going to marry someone on the payroll, no matter how much she likes him. For his part, Tom still seems sad about Sybil. I can't see him hooking up with her sister - too close to the original thing. I think there needs to be some space between Sybil and his next lady.

 

I think Tom is just Mary's only friend. Seriously - girlfriend has no girlfriends. Even Edith seems to have more outside connections.

 

Hey, you know that guy who ruined Baxter's life? Well, here he comes! They will face each other in court! They...oh. He copped a plea so she won't have to testify and we don't even get to see the guy? Thanks again for such an exciting turn of events, Fellowes. You know you CAN actually allow stuff to happen.

 

Still hate Denker and Spratt. Quit trying to make them happen, Fellowes.

 

Nothing makes Daisy friggin' happy. She's always gotta find something to bitch about.

 

And when it takes one character horking up blood all over his dinner guests to get the other characters to shut the hell up about the hospital, it's time to wrap that storyline up.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Kostgard

[Hecate7]

I'm really intrigued where they are going with the Marigold subplot.

 

Mary's last scenes this episode all had a vibe of isolation going on. When she returns with Edith and Edith tells her she's going to look after the children Mary's response is 'Of course you are' and there's not a hint of the usual snark, she sounds defeated. This is followed by the brief exchange with Tom who is unusually sarcastic with his 'So long live our own Queen Mary'. He leaves her and there's a beautiful shot of her standing all alone under an arch in the stairway - beautiful cinematography, it looked for a moment like a medieval painting. Mary's last scene is of course with her other confidante, Anna, who is clearly not telling her everything she could. The episode ends with Mary staring at her own reflection in the mirror.

 

I think it's clear that Mary has figured out Marigold's identity and that everybody except her already knew. And that must hurt her on many levels. We all expect her to lash out, everything else would be a surprise - but if played right the conflict around Marigold could turn into a true catharsis for Mary. Once she gets her outrage out of her system she might be forced to face a couple of hard questions about herself and that could be one hell of a ride to watch.

 

 

I love this idea. But I do think it's hilarious to envision her outrage, because what is it really about? That no one shared the deepest, most private secret of a person she is indifferent to, with her? That would be like Edith being outraged that no one told her about Pamuk.

[Isazouzi]

Pretty much like Thomas, I didn't know before this episode that I didn't want Robert to die. I was so worried for him, his blood vomiting was so spectacular, I was sure he was a goner. So yeah, it'll probably be Violet, but not I hope before the very last minute of the last episode.

 

I was so disappointed in Daisy. When I saw the look in her eyes while Mrs Patmore was serving tea to Mr Mason, I thought she just had an epiphany and that she was going to play matchmaker, but no, she was actually jealous! I mean come on! Anyway, I'd be so glad if Mrs Patmore had a happy ending, and if she wants to, a "full" marriage with Mr Mason. I bet she's be happier than Mrs Hughes Carson! Carson is a lot to take, but I'm not sure Mrs Hughes is going the right way about it. But I guess it's easy to say from our modern point of view.

 

Concerning Mary and Tom, I don't see it, but it wouldn't totally shock me, I guess. Although if they had a kid together, what would they tell to little Sybbie? "Honey, meet your sister/brother, who's also your cousin!"

[MissLucas]

Concerning Mary and Tom, I don't see it, but it wouldn't totally shock me, I guess. Although if they had a kid together, what would they tell to little Sybbie? "Honey, meet your sister/brother, who's also your cousin!"

As usual, poor George gets overlooked ;)

[Llywela]

It wouldn't be the first time it had happened to a family. My mum lost her mother as a child, and a number of years later her father married the mother's sister, so that mum's aunt became her stepmum and her cousins became her stepbrothers. Forty years later she refers to her stepmother as 'auntie' still, but calls the cousins her brothers and we kids grew up calling them uncle - their children we call our cousins, although technically they are our second cousins, and the stepmother/great-aunt we call our Nan. It's complicated, but makes sense to us! And my grandfather and his second wife - the aunt/stepmother - did have a baby together, but he was stillborn. One of my dad's cousins had the same thing happen in her family - her mum died, and her dad remarried to the sister.

 

So the complicated relationships arising from such a marriage wouldn't be unheard of! Families adapt more easily than you'd think.

[rudystx01]

I loved how Mr. Carson's lack of medical knowledge became a privacy issue for the family. He really has to be the smartest person in the room.

[Avaleigh]

I loved how Mr. Carson's lack of medical knowledge became a privacy issue for the family. He really has to be the smartest person in the room.

He'd rather pull out a tooth than admit that he simply doesn't know. I thought it was pretty funny. I feel like I know these characters so well that it's going to be sad to part from them.

[Tetraneutron]

So Mrs. Patmore and Mr. Mason end up together too. Looks like everyone will be paired off but Tom. (Sorry, guys. I just don't see it with Mary/Tom. Fellowes is too much of a snob. And Matthew Goode is too famous to be the romantic false lead). And Thomas, of course. But I still want him to have a passionate yet trashy love affair with some important Duke. I don't like sad-sack Thomas at all.

 

Also, is Carson still supposed to be a sympathetic character? He's a complete ass to his employee and his wife, and he tries to act all important about knowing a medical term. I can't believe the audience is still supposed to like him.

 

Although since the Downton servants are all happy and boring, I'm actually getting into the Denker and Spratt stuff. Yes, it's stupid. Yes, both characters are horrid, and not in a fun way like O'Brien was. I think it's Stockholm Syndrome. Yes, there was no reason on earth for Denker to go off on the doctor like that, no matter how much the script tried to explain it. And most importantly, Spratt is a schemer, who tricked Molsely out of a butler position, and worked the Great Broth Caper of '24, so now suddenly he's getting blackmailed? Why don't characters of soap operas ever bluff the blackmailers? Ever? Spratt should have told Denker to go right ahead. She has no proof and is on the verge of being fired, and her employer doesn't like her. And it's not like he has nothing on her. Like the gambling in London. It was all so stupid, but it's better than the fulfilled dreams and declarations of love at the main house.

[MissLucas]

And Matthew Goode is too famous to be the romantic false lead.

Tell that to the Kings!

[Helena Dax]

There's some part of me that wants Tom/Mary, but not because I need them to be together, it's just that I dislike  all the  other  men around Mary; they're boring and I can't tell them apart.

 

I might be a  monster, but when  Robert started his Alien impression I couldn't  stop laughing. It was so over the top, omg! The scene just became serious to  me again when he fell to the ground and for a moment, I thought he wasn't going to  make it. The actors  did a great job.

 

I love Carson, he's like a big muppet, but I want  Mrs Hugues  to  kick him  in the ass. Otoh, I think he was mostly... thinking like a butler. He's got PBSD (post-butler stress disorder). He's been  taking care of these things for decades and he just can't suddenly stop doing it. When he asked Mrs. Patmore  to "train" Mrs. Hugues, he was acting as a butler trying to help a maid. And it wasn't because he sees his wife as a maid, it's because he has problems to see things from a non-butlery mindset. He needs to work on that.

 

Loved that Thomas got a friend.

 

I'm glad Edith's  life is going better. I agree that she could become the  next *aristocratic title I can't remember".

Edited October 22, 2015 by Helena Dax

[DianeDobbler]

I think Fellowes is simply not tipping his hand with Tom and Mary, while at the same time building an "it was obvious all along" or "you could see it coming" kind of thing. See it coming not via conventional means, but by showing that they're a team, each other's confidentes, etc. Romantic foreshadowing such as close-ups and lingering shots would give the game away.

 

Mary's last scenes this episode all had a vibe of isolation going on. When she returns with Edith and Edith tells her she's going to look after the children Mary's response is 'Of course you are' and there's not a hint of the usual snark, she sounds defeated.

 

 

I had a different read. Mary's been snarky about Edith's attachment to Marigold, painting it as pathetic, although in this episode the couple of (non-Marigold) shots Mary took at Edith lacked all sting, and could not have shown less conviction. More like going through the motions, because expected. Even Edith seemed bemused, unruffled.

 

If, as Mary has to suspect, Edith is actually Marigold's mother, then Edith's attachment to the child is anything but pathetic (not that it would have been pathetic otherwise, but I mean in Mary's eyes). Instead Edith is a woman who took a big risk to have her child, and managed to get the household on her team so she could keep her daughter with her. In that context "of course you are" is a rueful compliment; Mary acknowledging something in Edith, and seeing it in a new light, something different from Mary, something that Mary respects. The Marigold piece sort of capped something that's been evolving in Edith. Dial back a few seasons, and if Edith were meeting a man, she'd have probably insisted it was a date or implied it was, while Mary and Robert rolled their eyes, thinking the pathetic thing was deluded. Now Robert's eyes spark up when Edith mentions her appointment with her friend, and Edith is playing it down in a very Mary-like manner. Edith has a lot more assurance and confidence, she doesn't need to insecurely insist that men find her attractive, and because she doesn't, Robert is now capable of believing men do. I think finding out about Marigold just brought home to Mary how far Edith has come from the sister she thought she knew.

 

It's been really obvious for quite some time that Tom is the person Mary respects most of her entire circle, the person in whom she has the most confidence, and almost the only person with whom she really feels at home. There isn't a lot of romantic chemistry, but there's actor chemistry; they do feel like family. Tom fits in. I don't think Fellowes is after telling the story of a great romance, as he did with Matthew and Mary. It doesn't mean we won't be meant to believe there IS (or at least accept there is), in terms of the saga of Downton, when all is said and done, but that's not the part of the story he's focused upon, as he did with Matthew/Mary. I believe Fellowes hoped to capture the romantic excitement of Mary and Matthew in S5, setting it up at the end of S4, and he completely failed. Dockery is just not sparking with these guys, or maybe it's the casting of the guys. I don't think any have had real charisma. As soon as they're off camera, I forget them, including this current guy. But, I think his vision of the show includes Mary married, happily or contentedly so, and running Downton. With how Fellowes has structured Tom and Mary, any husband other than Tom would be a third wheel in the Mary-and-Downton scenario, because Tom's in the husband spot. He's integral, both at Downton and in Mary's life. 

 

You know how in the Harry Potter series, and as annoying as it was, Harry and Hermoine both married Weaslys, so everybody was together forever? Neither Ginny/Harry nor Ron/Hermoine were exciting in themselves, IMO, but the prevailing idea was the three muskateers would never be separated; they'd be family for eternity. Marriage to Mary would cement the position Tom already occupies at Downton, it would resolve his romantic future (at the present time he has absolutely none if it's not going to be Mary), it would resolve her romantic future, and it would make step-siblings of cousins Sibbie and George, giving Sibbie a new mom and George a new dad. All very neat.

 

I think Fellowes would have preferred Matthew/Mary Part 2 with, say, Charles Blake, and Sybil/Tom Part 2 with Tom/Rose, but when Mary face-planted with the new love interests, Tom's other options were hustled off and shut down and he was held in reserve for her as the only "satisfying" alternative Fellowes could think of if he couldn't recreate the excitement the audience had for Matthew/Mary. Mary IS the show to him.

Edited October 22, 2015 by DianeDobbler

[Andorra]

Very good post, Diane. It is exaclty what I think! 

 

It will be no big romance for Mary or Tom this time, but a love born out of friendship and with the same goal. I think that is a good and satisfying ending to the story. It makes much more sense to me than letting Mary end up with Henry the car racer, who seems to be completely wrong for her. She is too old to lose her head over some charming boy who doesn't know any responsibility and doesn't show an interest in sharing hers. And she has a lot of responsibility now and will get even more when Robert will die some day. 

As you said: Tom is already very much in the husband space now. I can't see this ménage a trois with Mary/Tom and Henry continuing forever. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Andorra

[shang yiet]

Mary said she wouldn't marry down and I'm afraid Tom is considered 'down'.. Evelyn Napier was mentioned for some reason, I'm sure he'll appear. I'm not keen on Tom/Mary. I find it a bit icky along the lines of Laurie moving on to Beth after Jo wouldn't have him. Never could buy Laurie/Beth.

[Llywela]

Mary said she wouldn't marry down and I'm afraid Tom is considered 'down'.. Evelyn Napier was mentioned for some reason, I'm sure he'll appear. I'm not keen on Tom/Mary. I find it a bit icky along the lines of Laurie moving on to Beth after Jo wouldn't have him. Never could buy Laurie/Beth.

Possibly because it was Amy that Laurie married, not Beth. ;)

 

Mary made that statement, yes, but her development over the remainder of the season could yet be her revision of that opinion - the groundwork for which was hearing Tom's assessment of his relationship with Sybil, pointing out that there are more ways than one in which a couple can be 'equal'. It all remains to be seen.

[RedWolf]

As we all know a woman can always change her mind. ;)

[Andorra]

The fact that Mary made that statement for me is the surest indication that she WILL marry down in the end.

 

It will be Edith with the title and Mary with the simple husband in the end, but I think both will be happy and it will be the right choice for both of them, even though it is completely the opposite of what they had expected for themselves when the show started.

[Helena Dax]

But what  Mary expected is more  or less what she's getting. I  mean,  she married the future Earl of Gratham, gave birth to the new heir and she'll  run the state for some years and then she'll become the Dowager Countess of Gratham, won't she?

[Andorra]

But what  Mary expected is more  or less what she's getting. I  mean,  she married the future Earl of Gratham, gave birth to the new heir and she'll  run the state for some years and then she'll become the Dowager Countess of Gratham, won't she?

 

No, she will never be Countess and she will never be the Dowager Countess, since Matthew never was the Earl of Grantham. She will always be "just" Lady Mary, no matter whom she marries, except if the man himself has title. 

 

Mary wanted to become Countess, but she will never be if she doesn't find another Earl who is willing to marry her.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Andorra

[Tetraneutron]

She doesn't seem to care about that. All she ever talks about is running Downton and leaving the estate in good hands for George, which she's doing. When the was talking to Henry at that fancy club, she went on and on about her job as agent, and then said "And George will inherit his grandfather's title" like an afterthought. So she said she wouldn't marry down, but it doesn't seem to bother her that she won't have a title. 

[Andorra]

She doesn't seem to care about that. All she ever talks about is running Downton and leaving the estate in good hands for George, which she's doing. When the was talking to Henry at that fancy club, she went on and on about her job as agent, and then said "And George will inherit his grandfather's title" like an afterthought. So she said she wouldn't marry down, but it doesn't seem to bother her that she won't have a title. 

 

Not any more! But she sure wanted to have a title when we started the show. She didn't want to marry a mere solicitor and she thought Matthew was not worth an afterthought at first.  She changed a lot and that is the point I'm making. 

[Athena]

I love the return of Edith's London wardrobe. One of the most memorable moments on this show was Edith's green dress on her date with Michael. She looked beautiful in the flat scene with Bertie. Who wouldn't want to kiss her? I'm glad the character has really developed.

 

I can't fast forward through those Denker/Spratt scenes fast enough. I. Do. Not. Care.

 

The Robert Alien scene was definitely an entertaining moment and I'm a sucker for his dieing words to Cora.

 

Tom is a better match for Henry than Mary is.

[wlk68]

Tom is a better match for Henry than Mary is.

Ha! This! The two of them were chatting away enthusiastically while Mary just sat there.

[Hecate7]

I'm glad Robert's lived. No need for another mourning drama and I really like the character.

Well, Mary's been given so obvious tips she had to find out about Marigold - and still she doesn't know what it is. It was only some ring bell for her. But I'm sure she'll find out soon.

 

Does anyone else think Mary should marry Tom? :) I know it's quite strange because they're like borther and sister to each other. But on the other hand I don't think there's anybode deserves Mary and the same with Tom.

 

She would dominate him too much. They would either fight, or he would always give in to her and she would lose respect for him. Best for them to be friends, really. She proved in this episode that she is his boss, not his equal.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Hecate7

[Andorra]

 

She would dominate him too much. They would either fight, or he would always give in to her and she would lose respect for him. Best for them to be friends, really. She proved in this episode that she is his boss, not his equal.

 

Where did you see that? They made the decision about Mr. Mason without her and Tom was the one who had to tell her. He's not afraid of her and she obviously respects him enough to accept his decision without a fight. She was "annoyed" that they made the decision while she was in London and it was her right to be, but they talked about it in a very friendly way and she accepted it.

 

And where did you see that she "proved to be his boss"? 

[Hecate7]

It just seemed to me that when she told Tom that her father is to have no stress, Tom's response, "hail our own Queen Mary" pretty much said it all. She was telling Tom how it was going to be, and he seemed to take it that way, and wryly accepted it. But that is why he wants something to do, besides the estate. Perhaps the next few episodes will be about unraveling the knot of perceived dominance, but then again, maybe not. The reason Tom and Mary get along, is that they have never had to compete with each other, or struggle against one another for control of anything. We've seen how Mary handles competition. We've seen what she thinks of people who actually disagree with her, too. Tom can't care as much about the estate as Mary, without butting heads with her.

Mrs. Hughes is having the same problem with Carson--he is used to being the boss, and at home he's still the boss. Mrs. Hughes was used to having a break from having to please the boss, and now she never gets one. Carson won't understand that, and so she hasn't told him. Tom would have the same problem with Mary, that Mrs. Hughes has with Carson.

[Andorra]

 

The reason Tom and Mary get along, is that they have never had to compete with each other, or struggle against one another for control of anything. We've seen how Mary handles competition. We've seen what she thinks of people who actually disagree with her, too. Tom can't care as much about the estate as Mary, without butting heads with her.

 

But we see they work together for years now and it's clearly not Mary telling him what to do, but they're both in it and they're obviously well able to discuss things out. Even if they disagree with each other (Mr. Mason's farm) she accepts his decision. She did the same when the Drewe's wanted the farm in season 4. She asked Tom "but what is your opinion on it?" and he said that he was "on the farmer's side of course". She didn't put up a fight or moped, she just accepted it and she did the same now in this season again. Have we ever seen Mary accept things from anyone before?

[Hecate7]

They were both working together under her father. Ultimately it was HIS estate. Now that power dynamic is going to change. Mary is very professional, but I'm not sure this new balance of power is going to work.

[RedWolf]

I disagree. Robert is the one who has problems sharing power. We saw that in series 3 with Matthew and series 4 with Mary (as now she owns Matthews half of the Estate). Robert and Mary are co-owners which means they have to move forward together. Mary and Tom have always gone to Robert as a united front with their plans and convince him to their side. They don't force him and Mary doesn't force him.

 

Mary values Tom's opinion (in every single episode I have seen she listens to what he says and even changes her mind because of what he says), and offered him half the responsibilities of Estate agent. IMO if she wanted all the power for herself she wouldn't have offered Tom the position when he came back from America.

[Eolivet]

I think it's telling how much Mary likes Henry, if she really can't stand cars or thinks watching racing cars is boring...and yet, she does it anyway because that's where he's going to be. If Mary had no interest, she'd make up an excuse. I think she tells herself she's humoring him, but Tom is there to be her conscience. That's how I read those scenes. Tom says all those things Mary doesn't want to admit, but wonders about, deep down.

 

It's been a while since Mary has moved out of her own orbit to spend time with a man -- Gillingham and Blake always seemed to come to her, were visiting her at Downton, etc. Henry doesn't seem to always be beating down her door when he's in town -- and she will actually make an effort to visit him when he's not at the house. She makes fun of how much she doesn't want to, but she does it anyway. As always, it's what Mary doesn't say vs. what she says.

 

And because it's the last season, I don't think Fellowes cares if the audience likes Henry or not. Matthew Goode is a name and he's handsome and he looks nice with Michelle Dockery. If the show was sticking around past this season, I'd say it might be back to the drawing board. But Henry got a good response in the CS, so I believe he's it.

 

Sybbie is such a delight and has the sweetest line deliveries and George is just a mannequin. Just have him sit there and remind everyone that Matthew existed. He's just so sour compared to that great little actress.

 

Carson better be getting a nice redemption arc soon, because if berating Mrs. Hughes is supposed to be cute or understandable, I'm going to have to start advocating for #FreeElsie.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Eolivet

[Superpole2000]

This was a very good episode. There is still too much sideshow with Violet's servants and Mr. Mason (none of whom I care about), but the main cast provided plenty to compensate.

 

I am thrilled they didn't save Robert's health problem as a big reveal later this season. They have foreshadowed it too much that it would have lacked any drama by then. Inserting it now keeps the season more interesting and the ultimate ending more uncertain.

 

My only change to this script would have been to have Mary and Edith hug toward the end of the episode. I'm fine with them being at each other's throats all the time, but once in a while I'd like to see some genuine sister bonding...much like when Sybil died.

[DaynaPhile]

I had an inkling that Robert's health was going to get worse, but I was anticipating an emergency by way of "our tiny little village hospital can't do what we need to save you" so the decisions would finally be made to let the York people run it so it can save more lives instead of being a little backwoods country hospital. But no, they decided to raid the b-movie effects shop and get everyone good and bloody. I thought that moment was over the top and completely out of character for what is usually a classy show. It could have been done so much more...what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know. He could have just double over and gotten blood all over the rug, Carson and Thomas struggling to help him not collapse...But across the table all over his wife? It really took me out of the moment.

I don't even know if this episode has aired in the states, I watch through another source so I'm glad I have other people to talk to who have seen it.

[Roseanna]

I really like Tom's evolution. Younger Tom in an earlier season would have started a fight with the health minister at dinner about the way the government is oppressing its people (heh, although I suppose Violet had "contentious dinner fight" covered) and then after Robert was taken away he would have scampered off. Now he feels comfortable sending off a government official and even chatting with him to find out how Violet got him to come to Downton in the first place.

 

Well, I do not like how Tom has been tamed.

 

Of course it's quite futile to start a quarrel in the dinner table (as Miss Bunting did), or use such backfiring tactics as Daisy regularly does. But one can stick to one's principles and choose methods that really promote them.  

The fact is that the system was unequal. Doris Lessing has told that the British officers who came to Africa during WW2 were 20-30 cm taller than the privates. Of course it wasn't only due to the health conditions but also nutrition and housing. 

 

So it wasn't just "doing the right thing", but also necessary for the benefit of the state to better the population's health.