S01.E14: The Fifth Stage

[thewhiteowl]

Leanne visits a prison to finally confront the drunk driver who killed her family. Meanwhile, Malaya begins to feel uncomfortable around her patient.

 

 

[Happy Harpy]

Cliffhanger! I didn't expect any and it worked on me ("no, no, not over so soon!"). I knew it was Gina. I was 100% certain that Christa wasn't going to be hurt, now I hope that the stalker is gone from the locker room...

The actor was soooo creepy, I was on pins and needles.

 

I'm digging the Neal/Mike friendship. I liked that Neal wasn't disappointed about the job, but about Leanne not telling him that she was leaving, I liked that he encouraged his friend. I liked that Mike stood up to his dad and I liked that his support and affection for Angus aren't only words, but very real. 

 

Is Steven Culp Angus and Mike's dad? I didn't see his name on the cast list. But great choice!

 

Let's say that Leanne really steps down. Mike found easily a place in the canvas, imo, but I'm not sure about him replacing her, he's still too new for me. Taking the teaching angle in order to illustrate that he's good for the job wasn't a good choice for me, and his other qualities should have been used (he's a bit of a cowboy like Leanne, imo, for example). I don't want Neal to tak the job, I'm not sure he wants it at all (plus, it would make him Christa's boss and not "just" one of the attendings) but I've seen Neal teaching the residents for 14 episodes and be great at it, so I had a little problem believing that Mike was more qualified than Neal as far as teaching goes.

Paging the MIA doctor Guthrie! (Well, he had the right to a mention). He's the one I could see replacing her.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the scenes that Leanne had outside of the hospital, before she met the drunk driver. It took me a bit out of the episode and slowed it down, although it's always a pleasure to see Marcia Gay Harden act her ass off. Love her scenes with Jesse and Neal. I also like that her decision at the accident scene was a wake-up call for her, and had consequences even though they weren't of the legal kind. Continuity and coherence.

 

A subplot that I really liked was Christa's. It was also about continuity and coherence. She just lost a patient she considered she didn't fight enough for, and imo it also resonated with what happened with her son (she didn't want to give up, her husband wanted to let him go) her attitude made sense to me. Moreover, she indeed had a point that the patient didn't sign anything; so during the scene in Perello's office, I saw everybody's point but I was cheering for her because this time, she didn't fold easily. But OTOH, she let the wife feel her disaproval (even in the gentle Christa way...unlike Perello's brash way) and she was wrong to do it. She was also wrong to try CPR, although it was clear that she wasn't in her normal state when she did it. So yes, she isn't perfect and she can make mistakes, too. Nevertheless, I loved her more because she apologized to her superior and to the wife, and she truly meant it; she really sounded appalled at what she did. Once again, I thought that B.Sommerville was awesome.

 

I don't know what the writers are doing with Heather/Mario/Angus, though. I'm not one to cry over a sunk love triangle (although I hope it isn't to replace it with another one, if you see what I mean). I know that Angus' crush on Heather was shallow, but "cute babies with her" at the beginning of the episode and "nah, slut" at the end was definitely clunky. And on the principle, I'm not too fond -understatement- of the "nah, slut" thing. Heather is indeed more hardened than Mario -and I did like her reaction when he confronted her- but I kind of hope there's more interesting/original to the story...for example, that she's victim of wrong assumptions and rumors because she's a surgeon and pretty.

 

Of course, I loved the Christa/Neal morning after scene *insert lots of shipper gushing here*. Their first kiss was intense and happened in a moment of grief, so I thought it was great that their love scene was joyful and funny. They were just happy to get together. I love their relationship because it's positive, and the scene reflected that. The flashback was an interesting idea. Although it established a bit of distance, it allowed to dodge a "very special love scene" impression and integrated it better in the episode imo. I also still love their dynamics when they work together. Imo, the scene about the DNR showed that their professional relationship didn't change because they slept together, and it wasn't an issue in the rest of the episode, which I appreciate very much. 

Neal losing his cool whenever Christa is in danger is like catnip, and after finding Gina bathing in her blood she's going to need comfort. I'm just saying. (Yes, I'm greedy).

Edited January 28, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[twoods]

Damn it cliffhanger! Next week's episode looks intense as well. That creepy patient gave me the chills- I've seen the actor play other stalkery roles and he always kills them. I'm worried for Malaya next.

Love Mike- what a great addition. I do wish that they would add another trauma surgeon because they are the ones that run the trauma codes, not the ED (one of the things that Chicago Med does right).

So Heather hooks up with attendings? Come on writers, you can do better than that.

I hope Leanne doesn't leave and it's just temporary. I also missed Guthrie this episode.

The Christa/Neal scene was great. Super cute and not so heavy handed on the sex (something that Greys always did that was annoying). Please don't ruin them writers! And I hated how she was treating the wife of the schizophrenic, but you're right Happy Harpy. She felt like she didn't give that mom a chance to live, so felt like she was failing again. And is Neal quite possibly the best TV guy out there? He urged Mike to take the residency position even though he probably wants it, and he's instead more upset with Leanne not confiding with him. Plus, he looks crazy hot without a shirt (off to swim in the shallow pool).

Edited January 28, 2016 by twoods

[WearyTraveler]

MGH is a great actress!

 

I like this show.  Was sorry to see in TVline that a renewal could go either way.  The characters here mostly act like adults, not overgrown high school kids.  So refreshing!

 

I'm afraid for Malaya.  We didn't see her after the break room scene, did we? Has the stalker guy got her someplace? Stalker guy was creepy. I think he took blood thinners on purpose, so he could go back to the hospital.  Also, the fact that he's a good looking guy makes him creepier still.

 

Next week looks good!

[starri]

I liked this story better when ER did it.

[Bobcatkitten]

Not a fan of the will-she-or-won't-she-leave stuff. Just focus on the hospital people. I don't need prison visits etc.

 

The hospital director guy is hot. Can someone hook up with him? He has been in a bunch of small stuff and I always like him.

 

Just a question about how the ER is set up there - is that realistic? They just have a bunch of beds all in a room by each other with barely move to walk? I have never seen an ER like that and was wondering if it is a thing.

[twoods]

Not a fan of the will-she-or-won't-she-leave stuff. Just focus on the hospital people. I don't need prison visits etc.

The hospital director guy is hot. Can someone hook up with him? He has been in a bunch of small stuff and I always like him.

Just a question about how the ER is set up there - is that realistic? They just have a bunch of beds all in a room by each other with barely move to walk? I have never seen an ER like that and was wondering if it is a thing.

Yes, the county ERs are exactly like that. Gurneys separated by a curtain. I then worked at a nicer ER in a newer hospital and was surprised that there were rooms! But when it was busy, kids were on gurneys in the hallway.

I really liked the CEO. I'm intrigued how long he was practicing medicine before he went the admin route.

[secnarf]

I'm digging the Neal/Mike friendship. I liked that Neal wasn't disappointed about the job, but about Leanne not telling him that she was leaving, I liked that he encouraged his friend. I liked that Mike stood up to his dad and I liked that his support and affection for Angus aren't only words, but very real. 

 

Is Steven Culp Angus and Mike's dad? I didn't see his name on the cast list. But great choice!

 

Let's say that Leanne really steps down. Mike found easily a place in the canvas, imo, but I'm not sure about him replacing her, he's still too new for me. Taking the teaching angle in order to illustrate that he's good for the job wasn't a good choice for me, and his other qualities should have been used (he's a bit of a cowboy like Leanne, imo, for example). I don't want Neal to tak the job, I'm not sure he wants it at all (plus, it would make him Christa's boss and not "just" one of the attendings) but I've seen Neal teaching the residents for 14 episodes and be great at it, so I had a little problem believing that Mike was more qualified than Neal as far as teaching goes.

Paging the MIA doctor Guthrie! (Well, he had the right to a mention). He's the one I could see replacing her.

I also love that Mike was introduced without a ton of added drama. It's nice that him and Angus have a good relationship.

That was definitely Steven Culp as their father.

 

I wonder if (at least part of) the reason Neal doesn't want to take Leanne's job is because of his relationship with Christa and the problems it would cause. I do have a hard time believing that Mike "deserves" the job though, despite liking him well enough as a character.

[statsgirl]

The ER's are organized by sections -- a large room for cuts and sutures, various small rooms for medium length stays, and large rooms with beds separated by curtains for people who are either very ill or just need to be examined and then discharged.  We've had people on gurneys in the hallway when it was overcrowded but they were always taken into a room for actual treatment.  It's an issue of respect for me.

 

Steven Culp was in the credits. Nicer to see him playing a guy with shades of grey rather than pure black as he often is.

 

I really liked the Mike and Mike/Neal story.  Mike is a good teacher and he knows when to take himself out of the equation.  I'm glad he's sticking around (please, keep him around) and I like that Neal is good with it.

 

The story that shot me in the emotional gut was Crista/wife/schizophrenic.  I know we're supposed to think that Crista is a wonderful doctor because she was fighting for her patient but she wasn't, she was imposing what she thought was the right thing to do over the wishes of the patient (and bonus, she couldn't keep her emotions in check).  Doctors like Crista are the reason patients need medical powers of attorney to protect themselves. Crista had no idea what the man wanted, no idea of what he was living with when the schizophrenia was taking over, no idea of the bad side effects of the medication he had to be on to try to keep it in check.  I've been in the wife's position, holding a medical PoA while doctors argued with me, with test results that supported my side, because they thought they were gods and always right. 

 

What Crista did crossed the line into emotional abuse to a woman who was already torn up by losing her husband but just as in real life, there will be no consequences to Crista for what she put that woman through.  My opinion of her has dropped fifty points though. 

 

Glad Leanne finally made peace with the guy but her line, that she knows that his real prison was her not forgiving him, was very self-centered. No, Leanne, he may wish you'd forgive but his real prison is the one with cells and bars and scary people on both sides.

I liked this story better when ER did it.

And they waited until mid season 5 to do it.

[starri]

The ER's are organized by sections -- a large room for cuts and sutures, various small rooms for medium length stays, and large rooms with beds separated by curtains for people who are either very ill or just need to be examined and then discharged.  We've had people on gurneys in the hallway when it was overcrowded but they were always taken into a room for actual treatment.  It's an issue of respect for me.

Must be nice.  My hospital has three trauma bays, four critical care rooms, an isolation room, about 30 treatment rooms with perhaps a third of them reserved for Peds patient, and two curtain rooms (for maybe 20 additional patients) for cases that have been admitted by don't have beds upstairs yet.  Plus patients on gurneys in the hall (I've sutured patients there, and it's pretty common to administer EKGs as well), and an area we call "Chairs" where extremely minor cases who either need to be evaluated by Psych or have just past triage and don't have a gurney yet end up.  It's utter chaos, and I kind of love it.

 

But there's no way an ER that had something like Center Stage would ever pass inspection.  They do so many things there that should be done in an OR, but instead of doing what ER did and just ignore the issue, they prefer to act like there's never an open OR.

 

 

I've been in the wife's position, holding a medical PoA while doctors argued with me, with test results that supported my side, because they thought they were gods and always right.

Did I miss something about why the wife had to present a proxy?  Because Neil was like "she gets to make the decisions,' and I'm like "duh, he's incapacitated and she's the spouse."

[Happy Harpy]

The story that shot me in the emotional gut was Crista/wife/schizophrenic.  I know we're supposed to think that Crista is a wonderful doctor because she was fighting for her patient but she wasn't, she was imposing what she thought was the right thing to do over the wishes of the patient (and bonus, she couldn't keep her emotions in check). 

I'm not sure at all that she was presented as a wonderful doctor. Imo, she was presented as a doctor affected by the  death of a patient she lost the day before and that she felt guilty about.

I liked that she was fighting for what she thought was right in front of her colleagues and boss, and didn't consider that a mentally ill person had less rights than any other patient -because let's be honest, the opposite isn't a rarity. For the entourage, some people seem easier to "let go for their own sake" than others, YMMV.

As for emotional abuse, I think it's a bit harsh of a term. She asked questions (pointedly, yes, which was not right at all) but she wasn't preaching or lecturing or calling the wife a murderer at length. Another point is that Christa didn't know the patient, or his situation, if everything had been done, and if she could offer another solution than death. Again, her attitude was definitely out of line, and I'm certainly not saying it wasn't. The writing imo just allowed her a POV...

 

...but I don't think that it justified her actions in the least. In universe, even though Neal agreed with her that it wasn't right since they didn't get the information from the horse's mouth, I didn't see that anyone supported her attitude with the wife or her doing CPR. Jesse was openly disapproving, Neal told her to stop without hesitation. Christa herself ended up realizing she was wrong and mislead.

I can't say how the other viewers reacted, but personally when the slow motion began, and in spite of understanding her POV, I began mumbling "No, no, no, no! Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it !".  (I knew from the promo that she would, since the "stop" moment was there, but I was still biting my nails...well done!). So I'm not certain at all that the writing aimed at having the audience cheer up for her.

 

For me, sometimes, Christa's compassion and desire to help allow her to do great (the torsion in 1x02) and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes, like during the car accident, she can keep her emotions in check, and sometimes like earlier in the season (the baby in 1x04)) she can't. She is fallible, like everyone else, and imo in this episode she was the poster girl for fallible.

 

I really liked the CEO. I'm intrigued how long he was practicing medicine before he went the admin route.

I liked him, but I feel he might become a love to hate character. He'd certainly be an interesting foe or frenemy for Leanne. I liked their interaction, and how none of them took each other's crap.

 

I also love that Mike was introduced without a ton of added drama. It's nice that him and Angus have a good relationship.

That was definitely Steven Culp as their father.

I wonder if (at least part of) the reason Neal doesn't want to take Leanne's job is because of his relationship with Christa and the problems it would cause.

I would definitely like to know more about Neal's reasons. I suspect it could mostly have something to do with his dad, who seemed to expect a lot from him. Maybe he's happier without big administrative responsibilities, maybe he found balance and happiness not shooting for the stars like his father wanted. Oh, I see how he and Mike might have bonded, LOL (although I liked Neal's dad better in the end. At least for now).

But it could also have something to do with Christa. I've had the feeling that Neal was more aware of his feelings for her than she was of her feelings for him. There's a scene in episode 5 where he looks very much struck by lightning staring at her, so I've wondered.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[silverbell]

 

 

For me, sometimes, Christa's compassion and desire to help allow her to do great (the torsion in 1x02) and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes, like during the car accident, she can keep her emotions in check, and sometimes like earlier in the season (the baby in 1x04)) she can't. She is fallible, like everyone else, and imo in this episode she was the poster girl for fallible.

 

I liked him, but I feel he might become a love to hate character. He'd certainly be an interesting foe or frenemy for Leanne. I liked their interaction, and how none of them took each other's crap.

 

I would definitely like to know more about Neal's reasons. I suspect it could mostly have something to do with his dad, who seemed to expect a lot from him. Maybe he's happier without big administrative responsibilities, maybe he found balance and happiness not shooting for the stars like his father wanted. Oh, I see how he and Mike might have bonded, LOL (although I liked Neal's dad better in the end. At least for now).

But it could also have something to do with Christa. I've had the feeling that Neal was more aware of his feelings for her than she was of her feelings for him. There's a scene in episode 5 where he looks very much struck by lightning staring at her, so I've wondered.

I agree about Christa, it also makes her more human and she is not always right (just as Leanne realized about her self ) but it takes a while for the character to realize it for themselves. 

I think Neal is more aware of the situation in general, when asked if he has any regrets he talks about how this is going to get complicated with the gossip and HR, and he knows better about the rumor mill of the hospital.  

[statsgirl]

As for emotional abuse, I think it's a bit harsh of a term. She asked questions (pointedly, yes, which was not right at all) but she wasn't preaching or lecturing or calling the wife a murderer at length. Another point is that Christa didn't know the patient, or his situation, if everything had been done, and if she could offer another solution than death. Again, her attitude was definitely out of line, and I'm certainly not saying it wasn't. The writing imo just allowed her a POV...

You're looking at if from Crista's point of view.  She feels bad that she didn't fight for her patient last time so now she's determined to fight for this one.  It shows how much she cares.

 

I'm looking at it from the wife's point of view. She's been living with her husband's schizophrenia for years which must have been very difficult for both of them.  He sought help but nothing they tried worked* and so he gave up fighting.  This must have been hell for the wife because she said she tried to talk him out of it but he was determined. So she's been living with years of this horrible thing and trying to fight him to keep living but he won out in the end. His request was for her to let him die.

 

And then this doctor comes along, dismisses her when she says he doesn't want to be resuscitated, tells her he can be saved (as what?) and she's wrong to insist on the DNR.  She's already grieving and vulnerable and possibly exhausted; where is she going to find the strength to fight them?  Doctors have enormous power simply because as patients we are so dependent on them and what may be to Crista as mere questioning (although I don't think it was) translates to a sledgehammer to patients and their families.

 

I'm seeing the storyline from my personal experience where I was my mother's PoA and eight doctors repeatedly pushed me to sign a DNR for her because she was dying of cancer while I kept saying "Show me just one piece of evidence that she has cancer" because the CT scan, MRI, 2 biopsies and blood markers all came back negative.  But they kept pushing.  Five years later, I'm still not over it.

 

The power differential between doctor and patient is enormous, especially in a case like this episode.

 

*I've been there where the drugs I was taking were so awful, I said that I would rather die than go through these side effects and I meant it. Luckily the dosage was reduced for me and I could make it. It sounds like this guy wasn't so lucky.

[Shannon L.]

I, too, was thinking that they were going to have a lot to live up to for those of us who remember the ER episode, but I'm not going to make a final judgement until I see how next week's episode turns out. 

 

I thought this was a solid episode and only had one complaint:  When the wife followed her husband into the ER, she said "Wait, I have something to tell you!".  No one, not even Mama, who she was looking at when she said it, would listen to her.  What if her husband had some condition that they needed to be aware of?  That's what I thought it was going to be at first.  It bothered me that they all pushed her aside.  She obviously had something important to say.

 

I know that doctors can get God complexes, but in Christa's case, isn't it a bit early for her to have developed one?  Or do many of them come out of medical school thinking like that already?  I agree that she was emotional after what happened to her son, then the lady the day before, but I can imagine that for a new doctor, it must be really hard to let someone die when your entire training is about saving them.  But, I've never been on the other side of it and, I'm sorry statsgirl that you had to go through that.  I can't even begin to imagine what it's like.

 

Did I miss something?  What happened to the girl with gonorrhea?  I've already deleted the show and it just occurred to me that either my memory is really bad today (which is possible!) or I was distracted during that part of the story and didn't think about it until now.

[twoods]

She went into septic shock since the gonorrhea bacteria went into her bloodstream so they had to put a central line in her.

I think medical students all go in with the so called God complex- everyone wants to help and save lives. Then they are hit with the reality that you can't save anyone, and then you have to deal with the administration side to keep everyone happy, or save costs, or have to respect family wishes when you don't agree. It's brutal to get thrown into it all so fast, but you learn the hard way that everyone can't be helped or saved.

[Happy Harpy]

You're looking at if from Crista's point of view.  She feels bad that she didn't fight for her patient last time so now she's determined to fight for this one.  It shows how much she cares.

Yes, exactly, I was describing Christa's POV. I didn't say she was right, though. You can care for people, you can mean well, and yet hurt them. I think that's what happened here and what the writing wanted to convey.

 

I didn't speak about the wife's POV my last post (although not wanting Christa to do CPR = being on the wife's side) because it was the one supported by the writing imo so it was going without saying for me that she had been given a voice.

 

I'm really sorry for what you went through, and for what happened with your mother. 

[secnarf]

You're looking at if from Crista's point of view.  She feels bad that she didn't fight for her patient last time so now she's determined to fight for this one.  It shows how much she cares.

 

I'm looking at it from the wife's point of view. She's been living with her husband's schizophrenia for years which must have been very difficult for both of them.  He sought help but nothing they tried worked* and so he gave up fighting.  This must have been hell for the wife because she said she tried to talk him out of it but he was determined. So she's been living with years of this horrible thing and trying to fight him to keep living but he won out in the end. His request was for her to let him die.

 

And then this doctor comes along, dismisses her when she says he doesn't want to be resuscitated, tells her he can be saved (as what?) and she's wrong to insist on the DNR.  She's already grieving and vulnerable and possibly exhausted; where is she going to find the strength to fight them?  Doctors have enormous power simply because as patients we are so dependent on them and what may be to Crista as mere questioning (although I don't think it was) translates to a sledgehammer to patients and their families.

 

I'm seeing the storyline from my personal experience where I was my mother's PoA and eight doctors repeatedly pushed me to sign a DNR for her because she was dying of cancer while I kept saying "Show me just one piece of evidence that she has cancer" because the CT scan, MRI, 2 biopsies and blood markers all came back negative.  But they kept pushing.  Five years later, I'm still not over it.

 

The power differential between doctor and patient is enormous, especially in a case like this episode.

 

*I've been there where the drugs I was taking were so awful, I said that I would rather die than go through these side effects and I meant it. Luckily the dosage was reduced for me and I could make it. It sounds like this guy wasn't so lucky.

I think in many ways you are just as biased as Christa, just in the "opposite direction". I'm not saying that as a bad thing - I just think that your past experiences are preventing you from seeing her perspective, just as Christa's past experience losing the patient last week prevented her from seeing the wife's perspective this week. That is usually the problem in cases like this - each party comes to the table with baggage and past experiences that colour their opinions and actions. It's also what makes discussing cases like this so interesting, because everybody has such different life experiences, and so different people can watch the same episode and take completely different things from it.

 

Just something to consider; one could argue that Christa didn't have a shred of evidence that this is really what the man wanted, just as you are saying that the doctors didn't have a shred of evidence that your mother had cancer.

Sadly, there are people who would use a situation like this to "get rid" of a "burdensome" family member, either in the worst possible sense, or in a more ambiguous way. Consider the case of an infant, who the parents initially wanted everything done to save. But, by the time the baby improved, and it became clear the baby would survive, the parents had had more time to understand the potential long-term effects of the baby's condition, and demanded all care be withdrawn, since they were not willing to care for a disabled child. That baby obviously never expressed an opinion, and the parents had the legal authority to make this decision. Care was withdrawn and the baby died, but it was incredibly difficult for all of the healthcare providers for this baby. Ethically, it is very complicated, and not easy for anyone involved, particularly because the child might have had no or minor disabilities. It was particularly difficult for the three care providers who have children with disabilities.

 

In this case, for all Christa knew, the wife was making up that the husband wanted to die so that she wouldn't have to care for him anymore, since he never actually signed a DNR himself. The flip argument was that the man tried to kill himself, so that says something about his wishes, however, we don't routinely deny care to people who have made suicide attempts - despite the person's desire to die, all effort is typically made to save them. Ultimately, though, whether the wife was being truthful or not, she has the power to make that decision. That doesn't mean it's ethically easy for a doctor to accept, and Christa has a responsibility to her patient (not to the wife) to question it to make sure it's an informed decision, regardless of whether it is difficult or tiresome for the wife to answer those questions. She also has a responsibility to present her opinion that the patient could recover from his injuries.

 

She crossed the line when she started to do CPR after the patient flat-lined, but she also realized this and apologized. That doesn't make it right, and it was far more traumatic for the wife than it needed to be, and this is where she messed up, imo. At that point, the decision had been made, the discussion had been had (rather thoroughly), and she should have respected that decision. It does seem she realized it afterwards. I think it would have been appropriate for her to ask the wife (no more than once) if she was sure about the DNR, at that point, but that's it. She knows she overstepped, and hopefully she learns from it. It is nice that they chose to portray Christa as being in the wrong, because often shows like this will make the "wife" (or person in the wife's situation) really unsympathetic, which makes it hard to empathize with them and easier to empathize with the protagonist doctor. I also thought they did a good job of showing the reasoning behind Christa's actions without necessarily spelling it out.

 

I'm not a doctor, but I think the first couple of years of residency are the hardest, because it's one thing to learn about a DNR in school but it's another thing entirely to be able to save a person - or honestly believe that you can - and just watch them die. It's hard not to feel like you killed the person through omission, the same way Christa feels responsible for the death of the patient last episode. Over time, I think they get better at it. I also think that if Christa hadn't lost a patient last week because she didn't fight hard enough, she wouldn't have felt compelled to fight so hard for this patient.

The bottom line is that this is a terrible situation that actually happens very frequently, and it is why everybody should have a living will.

 

I also think it's interesting to contrast this situation with that of the girl and the religious father who was refusing healthcare in favour of prayer, despite being told that the daughter would die without the surgery. What if the girl had been unconscious and unable to make the choice herself?

[starri]

I also think it's interesting to contrast this situation with that of the girl and the religious father who was refusing healthcare in favour of prayer, despite being told that the daughter would die without the surgery. What if the girl had been unconscious and unable to make the choice herself?

Apples and oranges.  The rights of a minor child to live supersede the rights of the parents imposing their religious doctrine.  With an incapacitated adult, decision making always goes to the next of kin, and the spouse is first in line.

[secnarf]

Apples and oranges.  The rights of a minor child to live supersede the rights of the parents imposing their religious doctrine.  With an incapacitated adult, decision making always goes to the next of kin, and the spouse is first in line.

The rights of a child to live don't always supersede the parents' religious choices, at least not in my country - there are several examples to the contrary.

 

My 'scenario' was about an incapacitated teen - the next of kin, in this case the parent, gets to make the decisions, just like a spouse making decisions for an incapacitated adult.

[Shannon L.]

 

She went into septic shock since the gonorrhea bacteria went into her bloodstream so they had to put a central line in her.

That's right.  Thanks!

[starri]

The rights of a child to live don't always supersede the parents' religious choices, at least not in my country - there are several examples to the contrary.

 

My 'scenario' was about an incapacitated teen - the next of kin, in this case the parent, gets to make the decisions, just like a spouse making decisions for an incapacitated adult.

Well, under the laws of the United States, and the canon of medical ethics, that's how it works.  In the previous episode thread, I pointed out that a Jehovah's Witness cannot prevent their critically ill minor child from getting a blood transfusion.

[Fable]

I understand looking at things from a patient's point of view can be colored by all of our different experiences with doctors and hospitals, and I want both sides to be fairly portrayed, but I think Christa's point of view is supposed to take precedent, if only because we are getting know her and she is the character we are following.  That doesn't make her in the right, in fact, far from it.  I think this show does a good job in depicting human weaknesses.  Humans are fallible, be they doctors, judges, social workers or whatever.  Emotions affect everyone differently, and I like the way this show is developing these characters based on their different experiences, and even learning and growing from them.

[starri]

Except that Christa's perspective--as much as I like the character and actress--is objectively wrong.  As a point of law, she was committing assault the minute she started compressions.

[wineaux]

The story that shot me in the emotional gut was Crista/wife/schizophrenic.  I know we're supposed to think that Crista is a wonderful doctor because she was fighting for her patient but she wasn't, she was imposing what she thought was the right thing to do over the wishes of the patient (and bonus, she couldn't keep her emotions in check).  Doctors like Crista are the reason patients need medical powers of attorney to protect themselves. Crista had no idea what the man wanted, no idea of what he was living with when the schizophrenia was taking over, no idea of the bad side effects of the medication he had to be on to try to keep it in check.  I've been in the wife's position, holding a medical PoA while doctors argued with me, with test results that supported my side, because they thought they were gods and always right. 

 

What Crista did crossed the line into emotional abuse to a woman who was already torn up by losing her husband but just as in real life, there will be no consequences to Crista for what she put that woman through.  My opinion of her has dropped fifty points though. 

 

Very well put.  I totally agree with this.  I'm wondering if we are seeing a glimpse of the path that the writers are taking Crista on.  She clearly needs to learn some hard lessons...and soon...or, she won't be a very good doctor when it comes to working within the system, regardless of her own personal feelings.  She may have not liked having to respect the DNR (which both Mama and Neal understood), but she cannot ignore it.  Hmmm...maybe this is a sneak-peek into a future scenario where Crista is sued for stepping over the line?  

[BooksRule]

Did they actually go into 'code black' mode during this episode?  if not, is this the first one where we didn't see the little light that indicated a code black?  It was busy, but they didn't seem to be totally swamped (at least not as much as usual).

[silverbell]

Christa's perspective-was probably legally wrong but ethically it was not wrong. As animal doctors we get to be god when ever we feel like it human doctors do not get the same choice.
Christa had a point you actually did not know what the patient wishes were and if he actually did commit suicide and if they took it to court the court might have decided not to give the wife the DNR right until it was established that he did commit suicide.  
Human doctors have the hard job of seeing a patient die even though they can save him, and as an animal doctor if the owners do not want to save the animal even though I can, I can tell them to go some where else, and I would not have to see the animal dying or kill him myself.

Its a hard choice and you learn through the show how hard ethically and emotionally it is to be a doctor. 

[anlinn]

On the beginning, I would like say "Hello" to everybody.  So far, I've  read mostly but this time I've decided to write a few words.

It seems to me, the writers of "Code Black" want to show all aspects of the work on the  ER. It's not an easy job, particularly demanding physically and mentally. I 've heard many stories and events from my brother-in-law, who is an anesthesiologist and he is on-call  at A&E Department  (Poland). Maybe not so bloody and extreme but their first rule is to help everybody with limited resources, to prioritize patients etc. Doctors working there, are not robots and their work affects personal life, the bad or good experience which affects their behaviour. That is why I so like the character Dr. Christa Lorenson because she is only human and she reminds me of the stories of friends my brother-in-law.
I'm not suprised what happend with her character in last episodes. Maybe because already on Twitter where some asking  for the producer of the TV series Michael Seitzman  cut "love triangles" and do not mess up to much in Christa / Neal relationship.  Even I had a short a talk with Michael Seitzman  producer of show about it  where he told me:

Michael Seitzman "Ok, but do you really want to watch a show (or live a life) where you get everything you want? No challenge=no fun!"

And I think this answer explains what recently happened and will happen ... with Christa and other characters.

[starri]

Christa's perspective-was probably legally wrong but ethically it was not wrong. As animal doctors we get to be god when ever we feel like it human doctors do not get the same choice.

It's ethically wrong too.

 

The key phrase of the Hippocratic Oath is "Above all, I must not play at God."  No doctor has the right to impose his or her will onto a patient, no matter how much she might want to.

[silverbell]

It's ethically wrong too.

 

The key phrase of the Hippocratic Oath is "Above all, I must not play at God."  No doctor has the right to impose his or her will onto a patient, no matter how much she might want to.

Doctors play god all the time, they decide in the end of the day who lives and who dies, that is the hard part of the job. If we would not play god we would not save anyone, Doctors in the ER have to fight their god complex every day and choose between what will save the patient what the patient wants and what the family wants for the patient, its a hard balance to do, and this is what the show wants you to see.   

and the problem in this episode is that you did not really know what the patient really wanted both the wife and the doctors were guessing, but legally the wife had the upper hand and in the end of the day it was her legal right to choose for the husband.

[Happy Harpy]

Christa's perspective-was probably legally wrong but ethically it was not wrong. As animal doctors we get to be god when ever we feel like it human doctors do not get the same choice.

I make a difference between her perspective (she meant well, she wanted to save someone whom she thought could have a fair quality of life) and her actions (she was wrong to do CPR). She had good intentions, but she ended up hurting the feelings of the wife, which was wrong for me -and when she realized it, she was appalled so I guess it was wrong for her, too.

 

On the beginning, I would like say "Hello" to everybody.  So far, I've  read mostly but this time I've decided to write a few words.

Welcome :)

Glad to know that in other places, people are against love triangles.

I don't mind challenges when they're realistic and in character. I won't be jumping with joy if/when Neal and Christa have problems and challenges, especially so early (I'd like a little honeymoon until the end of the season) for example because of their different position in the hospital, or like they had earlier with solidarity between residents vs "friendship". But as long as it doesn't destroy the very nature of their relationship (mutual respect, admiration, trust) the characters, and why I love them separately and together in the first place, I'm OK with it.

Now, cliché soap drama isn't challenging, it's lazy, annoying and imo has nothing to do on this show.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[anlinn]

Glad to know that in other places, people are against love triangles.

 

Love trianges annoys me terribly as in life there was nothing else. Awfully childish.

 

 

Now, cliché soap drama isn't challenging, it's lazy, annoying and imo has nothing to do on this show.

I agree with you. I hope that the writers and producer probably aware of this and won't do it because may lose the chance for a renew sesson.

[silverbell]

I make a difference between her perspective (she meant well, she wanted to save someone whom she thought could have a fair quality of life) and her actions (she was wrong to do CPR). She had good intentions, but she ended up hurting the feelings of the wife, which was wrong for me -and when she realized it, she was appalled so I guess it was wrong for her, too.

 

I agree she was wrong to do the CPR in the end, I think she was not thinking strait at that point and she did realize it when she finally stopped , but I think she was not wrong in fighting and advocating for the patient and I can understand her frustration , it is hard to switch your " save a life  button " off, and it is emotionally draining to see some one you can help and not do a thing about it,  

[Ely]

it is hard to switch your " save a life  button " off, and it is emotionally draining to see some one you can help and not do a thing about it

Yes, it is and I understand Crista's POV. But she's a professional. She has to be able to switch it on/off. Yes, she still has to learn how to do it but she already had a big discussion about it  and she was already told to respect the patient's and wife's wishes. She should've been removed from the patient altogether if she cannot deal with it. And Neal should've handled the situation - and Crista - better. I was not happy at all with her or Neal's writing in this episode. Which brings me to the core problem: The scene with Crista CPRing that guy was just as much a device for highlighting the difficulty a doctor (in training) faces than it was when Mario blacktagged cement!guy a few episodes back. They laid it on too thick and the characters suffered from it.

 

I continue to really like Mike. I was ready to bitch about Mike's and Angus' father and how he is way too young to be their dad when I did a quick google search and had to learn that dad really has amazing genes. Good for the Leighton's. And can anyone explain to me how the first-born is called "Mike" while the second-born son is called "Angus"? I always thought the first-born is the poor devil who is stuck with the traditional, snobbish name.

 

As for another suprise, I was ready to hate Leanne's little trip - because I'm also not a fan of too much personal stuff - until she made me cry. Her forgiving the drunk-drier who killed her family was so well done. Now *that* was some careful writing.

 

Heather continues to be an a***. Yes, we're all feminists and emancipated and we can all f*** around as much as we see fit yadada. But that doesn't mean we cannot be upfront with the guy we're banging in the changing room and/or be a little more sensitive towards his feelings - whether he shows them or not. Sure, Mario was passive-aggressive about it and talking that over in the presence of a patient was too much Grey's for my liking. But she could've handled it in a kinder way instead of accusing him of controlling her. That woman needs to get over herself. I'm glad that at least Angus gets spared of her.

[Happy Harpy]

Heather continues to be an a***. Yes, we're all feminists and emancipated and we can all f*** around as much as we see fit yadada. But that doesn't mean we cannot be upfront with the guy we're banging in the changing room and/or be a little more sensitive towards his feelings - whether he shows them or not. Sure, Mario was passive-aggressive about it and talking that over in the presence of a patient was too much Grey's for my liking. But she could've handled it in a kinder way instead of accusing him of controlling her. That woman needs to get over herself. I'm glad that at least Angus gets spared of her.

I guess we'll know next week, since the attending she's supposed to sleep with begins recurring, but if Heather is here to stay I still think that she might not sleep with him and it's just rumors. "She only sleeps up" is so typical of such a situation. It would explain why she went for "attack is the best defense": She was hurt that Mario believed them of all people.

Also, with the background that she alluded to (strictly religious family) it would make sense to me that she's hyper-sensitive to people trying to control her.

 

I generally like the Malaya/Angus friendship, but I must say that I wasn't too fond of them in this episode. They were a bit like high-school mean girls talking about the "resident slut" behind her back, in the end. I was with Malaya when she told Mario to come clean with Angus, she was absolutely right. But I also felt that she insinuated he shouldn't be with Heather because Angus wanted/liked her, and was gloating at the end because Mario was cheated on. She isn't Mario's friend (

this might change if Mario is the one who tackles the stalker and saves her, as seen in the promo

) yet I found it quite childish.

I wish she wasn't embroiled by proxy in the triangle, I'd prefer a follow up on her mourning Carla (and the fate of her son). But this storyline seems as MIA as Guthrie Senior.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Dowel Jones]

But that doesn't mean we cannot be upfront with the guy we're banging in the changing room...

 

My guess is that there isn't going to be a lot of locker room sex in the near future.

 

That prison was in Arvin?  Who knew?  Inside joke; I live just north of there.

 

Just a question about how the ER is set up there - is that realistic?

 

As said above, newer ERs have much better facilities.  Back in the first episode I think Mama said that it was the original OR, built in 1932, and later converted to an ER.  Semi-amusing anecdote:  During my EMT classes, the teacher/ER nurse related a story to us.  Before the local hospital converted its ER to rooms, the patients all had monitors above the beds in curtained cubicles (without the flashing Code Black, thankfully).  On this particular day, a patient had died and a doctor was scheduled to remove his corneas for donation, prior approval having been obtained.  Unfortunately, the adjacent cubicle had a malfunctioning monitor, so the staff connected the dead guys monitor to the live guy next door.  Imagine the doctor's thankfully brief moment of terror in the middle of the operation when he looked up at the "dead" patient's monitor, only to see normal vital signs.

[Texasmom1970]

I liked this story better when ER did it.

I came here to say the exact same thing. That episode still sticks with me even though it has been off the air for so long. Watching poor Carter get stabbed and him just having to lie there and watch poor Lucy bleed out. Horrible yet so well done.

[twoods]

I came here to say the exact same thing. That episode still sticks with me even though it has been off the air for so long. Watching poor Carter get stabbed and him just having to lie there and watch poor Lucy bleed out. Horrible yet so well done.

I was traumatized after watching that. Plus we had known these characters for 5 seasons so we're more invested in it. The creepy stalker on this show, however, gave me chills from the beginning. If Neal was bleeding out I may be more hysterical.

[Happy Harpy]

I was traumatized after watching that. Plus we had known these characters for 5 seasons so we're more invested in it. The creepy stalker on this show, however, gave me chills from the beginning. If Neal was bleeding out I may be more hysterical.

I loved Lucy, sigh.

Is Kellie Martin still acting? Because physically, she could play Christa's sister or cousin, imo.

 

Hurt Neal and see me riot, LOL. I actually think it was kind of smart to use a recurring like Gina and not a regular character as the stalker's victim. The parallel with ER would have been done anyway, but the ramifications of the story seem different (if I rely on the next episode description and promo) whereas if it had been Malaya, for example, I think that inevitably, it would have been a 100% redux of Carter's recovery after his trauma.

[WearyTraveler]

Yeah, television has been commercially around since the 40s, so, there's always repetition and plot similarities.  It's probably not very easy to be completely original.  For me, execution is key, so the quality of the performers is what sells me the story.  This show has good actors, and that makes me like it even when the stories are similar to other shows from the past or present.

[needschocolate]

I am so glad they made the wife a sympathetic character.  She was sad at losing her husband and I felt that she was only enforcing the DNR because she knew it was what he really wanted. This is an example of why I love this show.  

 

Other, more soap-opera-ish, shows would have had the wife be more hardened, insisting on the DNR because she tired of dealing with her husband's mental illness. In that case, Christa would have come across as a hero, an advocate for the patient.  She would have administered CPR and the patient would survive and then we'd find out that the wife had pushed him off the building....

 

But the characters, even the guest stars, on CB are so fleshed out and everything is so well-acted, that viewers can understand the different points of view, even if you don't agree with them. I thought Christa was wrong, it wasn't her choice to make, but I understand why she would argue about following the DNR and why she would start CPR.

 

Speaking of CPR...(but first some background) The opening credits on The Good Wife don't usually come up until around 14-18 minutes into the show.  It has become a game at my house to guess when the credits start and whoever is closest wins.  I think we might start doing the same game with Code Black, but instead of predicting the time of the opening credits, we will predict the time of the first chest compression.  

 

A question for those of you who work in ERs, how often do you do chest compressions (not the shock thing, but CPR by hand)?   

[starri]

A question for those of you who work in ERs, how often do you do chest compressions (not the shock thing, but CPR by hand)?   

Depends on how long the person running the code wants it.  There are a lot of factors.

[WearyTraveler]

Then the question would be how many codes do you get in an ER on an average day?

[starri]

Not as many as TV would have you believe.  It's really hard to give numbers because every hospital has a different patient population and so you see different stuff.  The most dramatic example I can personally think of recently was during the blizzard where there were two codes and a DOA from the same car accident.

 

If a patient is younger, you probably will code them longer.  If they were down in the field for a long time, it's usually shorter.

[needschocolate]

Depends on how long the person running the code wants it.  There are a lot of factors.

 

Starri, thanks for the reply.  I was trying to ask how common it is that you need to do chest compressions in the ER - once a week, once a day, etc... which Weary Traveler phrased better. Of course, as you pointed out, it depends on how busy the ER is.  

 

On CB, they do CPR multiple times per episode - it seems like 20-40% of the patients code and need CPR.  It is a TV show about an extremely busy ER and they don't give the "boring" stories about people needing an IV because they are so dehydrated from vomiting, or the person who needs antibiotics for pneumonia. Therefore, I can easily forgive the show for doing CPR so often.

 

However, I am still curious about real life ERs - what percentage of patients end up having CPR performed manually on them?  1%? 10%? I would think it might be less than 1%, since they have the paddles to shock them with, but maybe they usually start manual compressions while the paddles are charging.  

Edited January 31, 2016 by needschocolate

[starri]

That's me being dim.  I thought you were asking how long it lasted.

 

Compressions and (when you can) cardioversion/defibrillations are both part of Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS).  When you have a rhythm you can shock, the guidelines are to do two minutes of compressions between shocks.

[mojito]

 

Other, more soap-opera-ish, shows would have had the wife be more hardened, insisting on the DNR because she tired of dealing with her husband's mental illness.

Or give us reason to wonder if she didn't push her husband off that fourth floor....

 

Sorry to see the show go the cliffhanger, banging in the locker room, wakeup bedroom scene, workplace violence route. In my book, this show is becoming common.

[MoreCoffeePlease]

Watched the episode over the weekend ... I love this show so much and REALLY, REALLY hope it gets renewed. Should we start a campaign now?

 

I'm with all of the ER fans out there.  I will never forget that episode, and as has been mentioned, we were deeply invested in those characters, so it did mean more, but I thought they did a good job on Code Black.  Not that I was 'spoiled' per se on Code Black, although I knew something was going to happen, back in the day of ER, there were still truly shocking moments on TV (although they did give a lot away for other episodes in the previews).

 

The hospital big-wig is hot ... was he on Chicago Fire?  And I love Mike.  He just seems like a really good guy, and as people have said, a grown-up.

[CG28]

I know there is tonight's new episode out to talk aboutnow, but saw this discussion and wanted to jump in.

 

Yes, it is and I understand Crista's POV. But she's a professional. She has to be able to switch it on/off. Yes, she still has to learn how to do it but she already had a big discussion about it  and she was already told to respect the patient's and wife's wishes. She should've been removed from the patient altogether if she cannot deal with it. And Neal should've handled the situation - and Crista - better. I was not happy at all with her or Neal's writing in this episode. Which brings me to the core problem: The scene with Crista CPRing that guy was just as much a device for highlighting the difficulty a doctor (in training) faces than it was when Mario blacktagged cement!guy a few episodes back. They laid it on too thick and the characters suffered from it.

 

 

 

Have to say I agree with a lot of this. I really like Christa and Neal, both separately and with each other, but this episode showed their flaws and those need to be recognized and handled. Yes flaws make the characters human, but if you overdo those flaws it ruins the characters.

 

I get that honoring the wife's wishes was hard for Christa. I even get the parallel between her not fighting hard enough (in her eyes anyway) to save the life of her previous patient and then having to be expected to not fight at all for this one. But she was in the wrong, plain and simple. I do think she realized it and I hope it resonated with her because she could be a great doctor but she simply has to learn to keep her emotions in check. Plus did anyone else notice that it seems like Christa has gone from skirting/bending the rules to flat out "screw the rules" in no time? Not good. Now Neal knew what they had to do. He has been a doctor long enough to know you may not like the rules but you have to abide by him. However his weakness was Christa and I have to wonder if that is the drama they will end up bringing up for these two. All she had to do was make eyes at him across Gina's office and he began backing her up. That is the very thing he can not do if they are going to be able to continue their relationship. You are right as soon as he recognized that she was bordering on unprofessional conduct with the patients wife he should have removed her from the case. But he didn't because just as Gina said in the previous episode he has blinders on when it comes to her.

 

Now for other parts of the episode. I was not expecting to like Mike so much and really wasn't too sure how I would feel about him taking Leanne's job. Initially I felt Neal was more qualified but of course I knew he couldn't take it since it would make him Christa's actual boss. I still feel that apart from his involvement with Christa he was the better choice, however it was very obvious he didn't want it and I believe his reasons for that go beyond Christa. I do think Mike will do just fine, however I couldn't help but wonder what makes it okay for him to be his brother's boss? That seems like it could be just as much of a disaster as Neal being Christa's boss. Wonder why Dr. Guthrie wasn't given the position and where was he exactly?

 

As far as Heather and Mario, so far I am just not invested in that storyline at all but I do have to say I really hope they don't turn it into some big love triangle storyline since those are way overdone, seemed forced, and do nothing but ruin the characters involved most of the time.

 

Anyway, most of all I really do hope we get another season of this show! I am truly loving it!