All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[jaytee1812]

I wouldn't say ensemble in that the show started out with 3 leads - Will, Rachel, and Finn with the rest of the characters supporting their stories.  Then as first Kurt and then Santana became more leads in seasons 2 and 3, Will became more supporting.  I actually think making the show more of an ensemble by giving bigger stories to a host of supporting characters (hello Brittany, Sam, Blaine, and Dave Karofsky) was one of the problems with the show as time went on. They should have stuck to the 3-4 leads.

 

I think part of the problem was those in charge could never make their minds up between it being 'The Rachel Berry Show' and it being an ensemble show. The main   narrative for the first three seasons was a bait and switch between glee being a place everyone could shine, or Rachel was the star and everyone could take a seat until she said otherwise, and they never really decided which it is. 

 

I'd much prefer Glee was an ensemble show, mostly because I preferred the supporting characters/actors, and personally if I'm watching a show with a diverse cast I'd rather they didn't just tell stories about one white women, and a few white men. 

[tom87]

I wouldn't say ensemble in that the show started out with 3 leads - Will, Rachel, and Finn with the rest of the characters supporting their stories.  Then as first Kurt and then Santana became more leads in seasons 2 and 3, Will became more supporting.  I actually think making the show more of an ensemble by giving bigger stories to a host of supporting characters (hello Brittany, Sam, Blaine, and Dave Karofsky) was one of the problems with the show as time went on. They should have stuck to the 3-4 leads.

 

 

 

I agree if they had stuck with 3/4 leads having overall  seasons/series arcs and keeping the other characters having a foucs epsidoes like  wheels for Arty or Home for Mercedes and even then giving them  more  b and c plots along the way we would have had much more delveopment for some of them.  

[camussie]

It's funny I use to think Finchell wasn't a very healthy relationship compared to Klaine.  Finn didn't seem to get Rachel's drive/ambition or why her career was so important to her.  Later once they split them up for good (as it turned out)at the end of  Season 3  Finn seemed to come to terms that Rachel would follow her dreams and he was good with that.

 

 

Finn/Rachel was unhealthy for a lot of reasons but I really disagree this was one of them.  Finn always thought Rachel was a star and would make it big out of Lima.  The one time he waivered on supporting her going to NY was when he was thinking of going to LA but other than that he was supportive of her career ambitions.  

 

As far as why I was a fan despite how poorly written they were.  For me it was as simple as the actors' chemistry and for those moments where the writers just seemed to showing them get each other.  Two that come to mind is how charmed Finn was by the Berry family sing-along right before dinner and how he was completely supportive of her rituals before her NYADA audition.  There is also that I don't believe that if Rachel or Finn had been deemed endgame with another person that couple would have fared any better than Finn/Rachel.  That means, while I get why so many thought Finn/Rachel were a bad pairing for both of them, I simply disagree that there would have been a better pairing for either one because those other pairings would have been dragged through the mud as well.

 

RM and team, like so many other TV writers, seem to think that you can write a couple as dysfunctional throughout the series and slap them together in the last 5 minutes and that is a happy ending.  A few go along with it but most of the audience has understandably bailed in their support.  I have deemed it the "Ross/Rachel syndrome" in honor of how the Kaufmans wrote Ross/Rachel.  I always said that if Friends had a reunion within 2 years that Ross & Rachel would probably be "off" again and in 10 years they would have been on & off a few times.  

Edited September 1, 2014 by camussie

[penpen]

I always said that if Friends had a reunion within 2 years that Ross & Rachel would probably be "off" again and in 10 years they would have been on & off a few times.  

Clap on. Clap off. The crapper.

[camussie]

Agreed that Network TV high school kids tend to look "older" , because they usually hire adult actors past 18 because it makes it easier  for filming due to Child Labor laws.  When Glee filmed it's pilot Chris Colfer  was still 18.   As far as I know, he's the youngest actor Glee ever hired as a regular.  Kevin at 20 was next and I think they are the  only Originals  under 21 to be hired. Amber and the rest of the girls were 22/23 when the pilot was filmed.  Chord was 21 when he was hired in Season 2 and Darren  was at least 23.

 

 

While looks are a part of making a twenty-something appear to be a high schooler I think how an actor carries themselves are an even bigger part.  In that regard I think Cory, Lea, and Kevin made their characters come off as the most authentic teenagers because of how they carried themselves while in character.  

For example

• Cory was the oldest in the cast but I thought, in the first season especially, he nailed Finn as a teenaged boy still getting use to his height.  
• Lea had the physicality of a teenaged girl who, while confident in one area of her life, feels awkward in others especially when it comes to boys.
• Kevin did double duty as a teenaged boy and someone in a wheelchair - both of which came off as authentic to me.  

Edited September 11, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

Cory did an amazing job as Finn was believable as an awkward teenager.

[camussie]

I agree.  To me the testament to that is I can look at almost any picture of him, even on set, and immediately tell whether it is Cory as himself or Cory as Finn.  He transformed his bearing that much when in character.  

Edited September 11, 2014 by camussie

[Camera One]

In that regard I think Cory, Lea, and Kevin made their characters come off as the most authentic teenagers because of how they carried themselves while in character.

 

Age-wise, I think all the originals were convincing as teenagers.  Puck was the only one who seemed a little too old to me.

[tom87]

Age-wise, I think all the originals were convincing as teenagers.  Puck was the only one who seemed a little too old to me.

I saw where Puck was a describe as a man child somewhere and it stuck  in my head and so  how old he looked never bothered me.

[ThatThingYouDo]

Puck looks too old, but that's really the least of the problems this show has. On a scale of one to oh my god what are they thinking, that's around a two. Probably a one if you read spoilers. It gets less bad the more you know. 

[wingster55]

Nitpicking, but Finn didn't play drums on that song. He sang along and had a verse. That episode also was originally supposed to air after "Funk," in which Puck and Finn kind of rebonded through taking revenge on Vocal Adrenaline.

Which isn't to say the aftermath was well handled at all, because it wasn't.

 

The lack of aftermath was rage inducing (including the fact that characters made fun of him for it later) as was Rachel/the narrative's insinuation that Finn's ego was more upset rather than his betrayal or loss of what he thought was his child. As for Finn's friendships with Puck and Quinn..the former didn't really get back on track until s2..and the latter was somewhat repaired by the s1 finale (started by Quinn's solo the ep before).

Regarding "Beth" ...I'm not sure why Finn felt the need to sing with the other guys sans Kurt...but based on his reaction after the song to Puck and Quinn's conversation..he was not ok.

[camussie]

"Hello" frustrated me to no end because it really set up the narrative that it was all about Finn's ego rather than his very real betrayal at the hands of Quinn and Puck, most of all, but also the rest of New Directions.  It was never clear how long the rest of them (sans Rachel knew) but they did know and they kept their mouths shut in order to have a shot at sectionals.  All the while Finn and his mom were spending very real money supporting Quinn. Money that could have been saved for Finn's future or hell spent on the latest and greatest video game if Finn so chose.  The members of ND, including Finn, screwed each other over several times throughout the years but I still say what they did to Finn (and what Quinn was helping to do to Will) ranks right up there with the worst of it. 

 

As for Finn's reaction at the end of Beth, while he looked upset, they didn't give him any dialog about it so I think it is fair to say there is a good chance that was Cory inserting a through line in the story that wasn't there in the writing.  

 

The net is the follow through sucked on the story (as it did with Will in that pregnancy story) and it hurt both of their characterizations.  Also, as I said in the other thread that lack of follow through was an early canary in a coal mine about how bad Glee would get at basic storytelling.

 

Well, Finn's participation in "Beth" was all about Kurt, IIRC.  The writers probably forgot about the complication with Puck, because they wanted Finn to echo Kurt's earlier "A house isn't a home".  Or, more charitably, Finn was willing to look kindly on Puck's song to Quinn and Beth, because he wanted to sing to Kurt.

 

 

But see even that frustrated me about "Theatricality."  It became all about how Finn used the F-word.  He was absolutely wrong to do that.  I just don't think him being wrong absolved everyone else in that whole screwed up scenario from their mistakes

• Carol - for letting Finn know their moving in by surprising him in the presence of Burt & Kurt.  Kurt some how got the courtesy to be told about this huge change in private but Finn did not
• Burt - for not telling Kurt that money is for both of you when he snatched up the money Burt gave Finn to re-decorate
• Kurt - for not letting Burt know, while Finn was wrong to call me that, there is also some background here you should know.  I have been crushing on him a while.

 

I also think Kurt being one of the people who his mouth shut should have come up during that whole mess, in addition to the whole crush issue.  For it not I really blame the writers' lack of follow as RM and team wanted to move on from the baby stuff so, as said above, they decided it was all about Will and Finn's bruised ego rather some very real betrayals that should have taken time to work through.  I feel Will & Quinn should have always had an uneasy relationship after that.  And Puck kissing Rachel while Finn was dating her should have been the end of their friendship, or dang near close to it, given the whole Quinn history.   

Edited September 22, 2014 by camussie

[ThatThingYouDo]

This show just misses the whole actions have consequences thing when they'd rather move on because they really just didn't think that through enough. Spoilers say they haven't gotten any better at this. 

[ancslove]

It's there, sometimes, in fits and starts and never really clearly.  I always figured that everyone's occasional quick mistrust of Quinn in Season 3 (Rumours, Finn's suspicion of her in Prom) was due to her earlier lie.  They'll trust her on the surface, but she doesn't get a second benefit of doubt.  The attitudes made sense, but were never spelled out in text.  (In Prom, especially.  Finn's manhandling of her was absolutely wrong, but he's had very personal experience with just how far Quinn can go to maintain a deception, and his distrust of her when things seem not to add up is very reasonable.  It's just too bad that he never got to actually express that.)

[wingster55]

As for Finn's reaction at the end of Beth, while he looked upset, they didn't give him any dialog about it so I think it is fair to say there is a good chance that was Cory inserting a through line in the story that wasn't there in the writing.

 

The way the camera had him in the background during the PQ talk and then directly focused on his reaction only? I don't think so

 

(In Prom, especially.  Finn's manhandling of her was absolutely wrong, but he's had very personal experience with just how far Quinn can go to maintain a deception, and his distrust of her when things seem not to add up is very reasonable.  It's just too bad that he never got to actually express that.)

 

I never really thought of it in that way...when that ep aired I hated how despite the growth she had shown (however little parts of it made sense) during s3 she was once again playing her s1 role as Finn/Rachel conflict. 

Personally I've always felt that, that ep should have brought closure to the whole triangle (especially Finn/Quinn...mainly because I have a strange soft spot for them)

[tom87]

"Hello" frustrated me to no end because it really set up the narrative that it was all about Finn's ego rather than his very real betrayal at the hands of Quinn and Puck, most of all, but also the rest of New Directions.  It was never clear how long the rest of them (sans Rachel knew) but they did know and they kept their mouths shut in order to have a shot at sectionals.  All the while Finn and his mom were spending very real money supporting Quinn. Money that could have been saved for Finn's future or hell spent on the latest and greatest video game if Finn so chose.  The members of ND, including Finn, screwed each other over several times throughout the years but I still say what they did to Finn (and what Quinn was helping to do to Will) ranks right up there with the worst of it. 

 

As for Finn's reaction at the end of Beth, while he looked upset, they didn't give him any dialog about it so I think it is fair to say there is a good chance that was Cory inserting a through line in the story that wasn't there in the writing.  

 

The net is the follow through sucked on the story (as it did with Will in that pregnancy story) and it hurt both of their characterizations.  Also, as I said in the other thread that lack of follow through was an early canary in a coal mine about how bad Glee would get at basic storytelling.

 

 

But see even that frustrated me about "Theatricality."  It became all about how Finn used the F-word.  He was absolutely wrong to do that.  I just don't think him being wrong absolved everyone else in that whole screwed up scenario from their mistakes

• Carol - for letting Finn know their moving in by surprising him in the presence of Burt & Kurt.  Kurt some how got the courtesy to be told about this huge change in private but Finn did not
• Burt - for not telling Kurt that money is for both of you when he snatched up the money Burt gave Finn to re-decorate
• Kurt - for not letting Burt know, while Finn was wrong to call me that, there is also some background here you should know.  I have been crushing on him a while.

 

I also think Kurt being one of the people who his mouth shut should have come up during that whole mess, in addition to the whole crush issue.  For it not I really blame the writers' lack of follow as RM and team wanted to move on from the baby stuff so, as said above, they decided it was all about Will and Finn's bruised ego rather some very real betrayals that should have taken time to work through.  I feel Will & Quinn should have always had an uneasy relationship after that.  And Puck kissing Rachel while Finn was dating her should have been the end of their friendship, or dang near close to it, given the whole Quinn history.   

At least with Rachel (and Puck to some extent) she had to actually win back his trust.  Quinn never did a thing to make amends for what she did to him or Mr Shue.   Kurt never had to do anything either it took Finn flat out pointing out that Kurt was wrong too.  There was one line about how Carole told Burt what Kurt had done.

 

Glee never follows through or they just throw in lines that were never a issue before.  As in Hello when it all of a sudden was about his ego to fit with him breaking it off with Rachel (after he agreed to go n a date).  Same thing in Sectionals we have Rachel seeing how Finn was hurting and being used so she tells him about the baby and then later they do a 180 and she tell Quinn she just wanted to break them up.    IMO opinion it was both, she didn't want to see Finn being used and hurt and she wanted him,  just like it was both his ego and a huge betrayal.  

 

But that is what glee does keeps it ambiguous I guess to annoy the viewers.

[Casual Viewing]

Sometimes I wonder how Glee would have turned out with just one showrunner instead of three. Maybe there would have been a clearer vision and better continuity? I often got the feeling that what happened in one episode was then forgotten or disregarded in the next, or improperly followed through, because there were just too many showrunners and no real consensus on what Glee was suppose to be.

[ThatThingYouDo]

But that is what glee does keeps it ambiguous I guess to annoy the viewers.

It's sort of amazing to me this seems a real agenda with them. They actually mock their own fans on twitter like it's somehow hilarious how mad they can make them. Have they not seen the ratings nosedive? It's not a cute look. People are going away sick of their shit pretty regularly. I'm way more interested in how few people show up for the next episode than anything they're going to cough up like a hairball on somebody's feet.

[camussie]

Agreed. I'd still put her behind the natural dancers like Jacob, Heather, Matt, Harry, and Kevin, though.

 

 

I agree that Amber doesn't have the dancing talent of those listed above or probably even Jenna but I always thought she was a more skilled dancer than Lea which is why I will forever be annoyed that Mercedes was told she needed to be in booty camp while Rachel was not and to try and justify it they said Mercedes was lazy.  

 

For that matter anytime they tried to give Rachel a pass on her passable at best dancing is, to me, among the most blatant "special snowflake" writing for Rachel.  For example, I thought Cassandra's critiques of Rachel's dancing were spot on but they made her so OTT crazy that it was obvious we were simply to dismiss them and in case we didn't get the point even Cassandra came around to being a Rachel cheerleader.

 

It also really shortchanged Rachel's story because her going to NYADA and realizing that while she is at the top of her game vocally she still has much to learn would have been a great story.  

[shantown]

 

It also really shortchanged Rachel's story because her going to NYADA and realizing that while she is at the top of her game vocally she still has much to learn would have been a great story.

They shortchanged pretty much all of the NY stories for the past two years. I would have loved to see more of Rachel's struggles at NYADA - how it felt to get close to your dream and realize you still had so far to go. I wanted to know what it was like for Kurt at Vogue - to jump right into the busy NY working world straight out of WMHS. They did a little with Santana's ridiculous random jobs, but it would have been great to see some of those random jobs. Even the Spotlight Diner didn't get used as much as it could have. I know none of this is new critiques that haven't been voice before, but it's still just so frustrating.

[jaytee1812]

They shortchanged pretty much all of the NY stories for the past two years. I would have loved to see more of Rachel's struggles at NYADA - how it felt to get close to your dream and realize you still had so far to go. I wanted to know what it was like for Kurt at Vogue - to jump right into the busy NY working world straight out of WMHS. They did a little with Santana's ridiculous random jobs, but it would have been great to see some of those random jobs. Even the Spotlight Diner didn't get used as much as it could have. I know none of this is new critiques that haven't been voice before, but it's still just so frustrating.

It didn't matter where Rachel's story was though, actually critiquing her talent was never allowed. Don't get me wrong Lea Michele is good but she's not without flaws but we were basically told Rachel's talent is perfect, everyone says so, but her personality is what drags her back.

Unfortunately instead of showing Rachel as the best but with flaws they ran down everyone else. Mercedes, Santana and Tina were all called lazy, and despite Cassandra's accurate run down of Rachel's dance skills it's because she wants to sleep with her boyfriend and then she has a sudden turnaround because Rachel's so awesome. Carmen Tibbideax was practically stalked until she let Rachel into NYADA. Everytime Will tried to let others shine Rachel threw a hissy fit. Mercedes was only 'allowed' Maria if she shared it with Rachel. I could go on and on.

Honestly it why I find Rachel really dull, she's just a toddler in big girl clothes.

[tom87]

Oh goody back to bashing Rachel and rewrites. 

[Sara2009]

Lea is one of the worst dancers on the show IMO. She's a great singer and actress, but I 'd put her in the bottom three when it comes to dancing.

[camussie]

Lea is one of the worst dancers on the show IMO. She's a great singer and actress, but I 'd put her in the bottom three when it comes to dancing.

 

 

I don't know if i would say bottom three but it definitely is her performance weakness (something it should be noted that she freely admits) so i think the show would have been smart to stay away from any story where her dancing is highlighted unless they were highlighting it to say Rachel is gold on her voice but she needs to work on her dancing to become a better all around performer.  I really thought that is where they were going to go when i first read they hired Kate Hudson as a dance instructor.  Too bad they decided to go the Cassandra is a "bitter has been who weirdly has it out for Rachel" route.  

Edited November 10, 2014 by camussie

[Sara2009]

Tbh, I don't think Kate Hudson was much to write home about either. She was fine, but the regulars on " Glee" who are natural dancers are better.

[Cranberry]

Oh goody back to bashing Rachel and rewrites. 

 

You may find that tiresome, but it's not against the rules. Just skim over the posts you don't like -- you won't be able to passive-aggressively guilt people out of making them, so don't waste your energy! You can always make use of the block feature, as well (you can find that in the "manage ignore prefs" section when you click the little user icon at the top of any page).

[camussie]

Oh i agree that Kate Hudson wasn't really that great as a dance instructor at a prestigious college like NYADA.  Frankly they should have cast that role straight from the ranks of true Broadway performers instead of trying to get a "name."  
 

[dizzyizzy01]

I agree that Amber doesn't have the dancing talent of those listed above or probably even Jenna but I always thought she was a more skilled dancer than Lea which is why I will forever be annoyed that Mercedes was told she needed to be in booty camp while Rachel was not and to try and justify it they said Mercedes was lazy. 

For that matter anytime they tried to give Rachel a pass on her passable at best dancing is, to me, among the most blatant "special snowflake" writing for Rachel.

 

 

Again Lea is NOT Rachel just as Amber is NOT Mercedes so this point is moot.  In canon, especially during this booty camp episode, it had been clearly documented that Rachel worked much harder than any of the other kids and Mercedes did have a tendency to be sort of complacent if not lazy.  In canon Finn was supposed to be the male lead and one of the best singers, but Cory clearly was not the best male singer of the boys.  Sam is supposed to be some great dancer also (remember White Chocolate?), and clearly Chord is a borderline awful dancer.  The writing didn't always match up to the actor's true skill level, but that's the nature of a television show.  People act and pretend and not everything is true to reality.     

 

Rachel does get criticized, but it's just canon that's she a great singer, dancer, and performer.  You don't have to agree with it and it may not be 100% accurate of Lea's ability, but that's the canon for her character.  I'm not saying the lack of follow through on any criticism of Rachel is good writing because it's not.  It just has nothing to do with the various abilities of the actors, and as a criticism, I think makes little sense.

[camussie]

Sure Lea is not Rachel but they should have taken Lea's passable, at best, dancing ability into account when they did stories like telling us that Mercedes belonged in booty camp while Rachel did not and then using a racist trope that the black girl is lazy to justify it.  They also should have taken Lea's dance ability into account when they wrote the entire Cassandra story.  As it stood I thought Cassandra was dead on in her assessment of Rachel's abilities and rolled my eyes that I was clearly supposed to ignore it due to Cassandra being crazy.  Telling me one thing (that Rachel is a good dancer) when I can clearly see that she isn't (which can be attributed to Lea's abilities much like Mercedes dancing can be attributed to Amber's abilities) annoys me.  Even more so when other characters are twisted around to try and maintain that illusion.

 

As for Cory I have always maintained it was a big mistake to try and sell Finn as the best male singer in New Directions precisely because Cory was clearly not the best male singer among the "kids."  To me that has always been Kevin.  What I think they should have gone with is Finn is an untrained singer who has a ways to go but he is a compelling performer who has an ability to act the songs in their performances that competition judges will respond favorably to and that is what Will saw in him when he made him lead.  

 

Basically what I am saying is, given Lea's dancing abilities, it was dumb of TPTB to make it canon for Rachel's character that she is a good dancer much like it was dumb of TPTB to say Finn was the best singer among the guys.  It wouldn't have diminished Rachel as a character if it was canon that as hard as she tried dancing was a struggle for her and it certainly wouldn't have hurt Finn's story for them to say that, while he has raw talent his voice is untrained, but he still has a lot to offer as far as presence on the stage.  

Edited November 10, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

 

 

Rachel does get criticized, but it's just canon that's she a great singer, dancer, and performer.  You don't have to agree with it and it may not be 100% accurate of Lea's ability, but that's the canon for her character.  I'm not saying the lack of follow through on any criticism of Rachel is good writing because it's not.  It just has nothing to do with the various abilities of the actors, and as a criticism, I think makes little sense.

I do not even think it is canon that she is a great dancer. It is canon she has experience when she was little and it is canon she works hard but as early as episode 13 they named Mike, Matt, Brittany and Santana their best dancers to choreograph a  dance in a hurry. Mr Shue went to Brittney and Mike to teach  hair flip or do booty camp.  

 

Rachel didn't have to go to booty camp because she is able to pick up the routine well enough in part cause she works at it on her own.  She does the extra work herself.  That is what is canon.

 

I agree she is not a natural dancer but frankly I never notice any concerns until she was more solo but as a person in the group she did not stand out in a negative way.   Unless she is getting a part as that is dance heavy I think she would do fine in most prodcuions but may not be picked as dance captain.

 

NY was poorly planned all around including the silly dance story line but in the end the point imo was she knew she has to work towards her strengths to make in the the business while maintaining a certain level in other disciplines beside singing.

[camussie]

NY was poorly planned all around including the silly dance story line but in the end the point imo was she knew she has to work towards her strengths to make in the the business while maintaining a certain level in other disciplines beside singing.

 

 

i think she learned exactly the opposite point with winning showcase.  She basically said that her showcase win proves all she needs is her voice so whatever Cassie said about her dancing mattered not.  

 

Rachel didn't have to go to booty camp because she is able to pick up the routine well enough in part cause she works at it on her own.  She does the extra work herself.  That is what is canon.

 

 

Unfortunately I saw time and again that she really didn't pick up the routines well enough or at least better than Mercedes who was in booty camp supposedly because she is lazy.    All that  extra work we were told she was putting in on her own really was not helping with her dancing which is precisely why she should have been in booty camp as well. Like I said above the writers defaulting to the "lazy black girl" trope to try and justify that particular plot point (why Mercedes was in booty camp while Rachel wasn't) was just plain bad and offensive writing.   

Edited November 10, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I think what was offensive was that they singled out Mercedes among everyone. They had established back in Season One (Laryngitis?) that ALL of ND not named Rachel slacked off per rehearsals/practice. Then in Season 2 " Funeral' Jesee St. James called out Mercedes for having no choreography in her number, with the "lazy' monicker thrown at her for the first time despite the onscreen evidence that Rachel's number was as much a "park and bark" .

So suddenly they morphed all that in Season 3 so that Mercedes was singularly lazy and had a poor attitude. In typical Glee fashion they then ignored these assumptions when they promised the Touch Tones their own number in competitions. So what was it, did Mercedes suddenly blossom into a dedicated hardworking team player with the TT which trumped supposedly the reasons she was not being picked for solos previously?

Edited November 10, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

 

I think what was offensive was that they singled out Mercedes among everyone. They had established back in Season One (Laryngitis?) that ALL of ND not named Rachel slacked off per rehearsals/practice. Then in Season 2 " Funeral' Jesee St. James called out Mercedes for having no choreography in her number, with the "lazy' monicker thrown at her for the first time despite the onscreen evidence that Rachel's number was as much a "park and bark" .

So suddenly they morphed all that in Season 3 so that Mercedes was singularly lazy and had a poor attitude. In typical Glee fashion they then ignored these assumptions when they promised the Touch Tones their own number in competitions. So what was it, did Mercedes suddenly blossom into a dedicated hardworking team player with the TT which trumped supposedly the reasons she was not being picked for solos previously?

 

No one is arguing the point that the writers are lazy and the lazy Black girl is bad writing.  I was merely saying is I do not think the booty dance camp was one more way to make Rachel a special snowflake since others were exempt from it too.    I think Kurt's reason to go to the camp was bad too.   I do not think saying Rachel was the hardest working is a slight to the others.

 

Once in Trouble Tones I took it as Mercedes finally felt she could be a leader and took advantage of that situation.  FYI Mercedes was not on the list of those slaking off in Laryngitis. In funeral if was Jessie trying  rile people up but Mercedes even admitted she didn't practice.   Rachel they had her imitate the song as it was shown in Funny Girl so she did some preparations.   But even though Rachel knew she "won" she did not fight it when Mr Shue nixed the whole thing. 

 

I thought it was funny at the start of that I am Unicorn they had Mr Shue and Rachel sitting all nice and calm and pretended Rachel was like his favorite and they had this easy going relationship. That was hardly how it was shown. Mr Shue would never even cal on Rachel in class.

 

So once again the writers write for the plot not the the character. They do not care if the characters change to fit their plot.

Edited November 10, 2014 by tom87

[camussie]

I think what was offensive was that they singled out Mercedes among everyone. They had established back in Season One (Laryngitis?) that ALL of ND not named Rachel slacked off per rehearsals/practice. Then in Season 2 " Funeral' Jesee St. James called out Mercedes for having no choreography in her number, with the "lazy' monicker thrown at her for the first time despite the onscreen evidence that Rachel's number was as much a "park and bark

 

 

I think that is a good explanation.  I am one of the few who can't stand Jesse St. James and it has nothing to do with Finn and Rachel and everything to do with him calling Mercedes lazy when Rachel wasn't doing any dancing in her routine either.  I also think that Rachel being just fine with Jesse rigging the competition in her favor was one of her most selfish moments during her tenure in ND.  She redeemed herself somewhat by not fighting it when will nixed the whole thing but that doesn't erase that she was gladly going along with it in the first place.  

 

I do not think saying Rachel was the hardest working is a slight to the others.

 

 

On its own it isn't but when they tie it to Mecredes, Santana, Tina are lazy in comparison it is a slight to others and often an unbelievable one used simply to justify why Rachel is more suited for something or why Rachel isn't being singled out for something she clearly needs (like booty camp)

Edited November 10, 2014 by camussie

[Glorfindel]

NY was poorly planned all around including the silly dance story line but in the end the point imo was she knew she has to work towards her strengths to make in the the business while maintaining a certain level in other disciplines beside singing.

 

But that was exactly what she refused to do. Rachel didn't really care about maintaining, let alone improving, her weaker disciplines, all she cared about was being in the spotlight. When Cassandra was giving her a hard time Rachel just gave up and decided to rely purely on her voice, basically 'parking and barking' at the Winter Showcase, something Mercedes was criticized for several times. And then out of the blue Cassandra let her pass her dancing exam without Rachel having to put in any effort at all, just because she is so awesome.

When Carmen rightfully almost failed Rachel because she didn't do her Sondheim singing assignemt right, it turned out that she was neglecting and failing almost all of her other classes as well. And even then Carmen was still willing to give her a second chance, but what did Rachel do? Throw a hissy fit, said she didn't need the education (because she was already perfect?) and quit.

 

With 'Funny Girl' it wasn't so much Rachel neglecting her own disciplines besides singing, but she was constantly ignoring and dismissing the other cast and crew's disciplines/jobs involved with musical theater when it didn't revolve around her and her voice:

- not wanting an understudy even though the entire performance would had to be cancelled if she got ill,

- wanting to change the dialogue of a pretty solid and classic script against the director's instructions,

- not going, as the star of the show, to the PR and media heavy party after the premiere of the show to celebrate and support the rest of the cast and crew,

- deliberately skipping performances to pursue even greener pastures, because she got bored pretty fast with actually doing what she always said she wanted and what she shoved everyone out of her way for: starring in a Broadway show,

- and last but certainly not least: quitting a new Broadway show after only a few months in, when she was the star and the show basically depended on her.

 

Then there's all the crap Rachel pulled in ND over the years, for the most of the time thinking everyone else in ND mainly excisted to sing back-up to her, and how almost every character had to bend backwards so she could get another try at getting into NYADA (when in reality Mr. Shue should not have given a girl who had just  failed a very important audition a solo and duet at Nationals, as he shouldn't depend the success the entire team worked years for on someone who recently showed she couldn't handle the pressure when it counted).

 

I agree with whoever said that they never should have made Rachel the best performer ever, because first of all noone is that perfect at everything (for instance it's true that Lea couldn't pull off the dancing skills necessary for her storylines), and even if Rachel was the star of ND there were others in that choir who should have gotten their chance to shine too and who would probably have been more suited for certain songs than Rachel. Furthermore: Rachel could be a star in Lima, Ohio, but in New York she would be just one of many girls with a good voice, a small fish in a big ocean.

And tbh: it's just plain boring if a character always somehow ends up with the prize and never faces any real competition or setbacks (setbacks based on talent/competition that is, not caused by Rachel's own stupid choices and actions).

 

The writing for Rachel got progressively worse over the years. She went from an annoying but quite relatable ambitious overachiever in the first seasons to a (imo) irredeemable selfish and fickle diva after season 5. Worst part for me is that practically every other character someone got hurt and sacrified at some point in the process of RIB wanting us to believe that Rachel really deserves the special snowflake treatment she gets.

[LydiaMoon1]

Rachel didn't have to go to booty camp because she is able to pick up the routine well enough in part cause she works at it on her own.  She does the extra work herself.  That is what is canon

No.  It was canon that Rachel was ambitious and driven. It's pure supposition that she mastered the booty camp dance routine on her own. Glee never showed that.  Yes, Finn defended Rachel during the argument between Mercedes and Shue by saying Rachel works hard, but I can work hard at being an opera singer.  It doesn't mean I'll ever be any good at it.  As is was presented, it just came off to me as another example of Rachel getting a pass from Shue and being shown favoritism while Mercedes got belittled.  If the show had bothered to show or even mention that Rachel had indeed mastered the routine, we wouldn't still be arguing this point three years later.

Unfortunately I saw time and again that she really didn't pick up the routines well enough or at least better than Mercedes who was in booty camp supposedly because she is lazy.    All that extra work she was supposedly putting in on her own really was not helping with her dancing which is precisely why she should have been in booty camp as well. Like I said above the writers defaulting to the "lazy black girl" trope to try and justify that particular plot point was just plain bad writing.

I agree.  The only ones who should have been called lazy were the writers.  It always bothered me that Mercedes got stuck with the lazy label because of the clumsy way the writers shoehorned in the confrontation scene from Dreamgirls. Mercedes had been never shown to be anything other than dedicated and hardworking up until that point.  Yeah, she was called lazy by Jesse St. James, but (to me at least) he only said it to eliminate her as Rachel’s competition for a solo. He said outrageous things about everybody else who was competing against Rachel as well.  So to lead into the Dreamgirls scene they had Mercedes arrive late at booty camp at 4pm because she overslept.  Yeah, you could say that scene implied that she often slept until 4pm as was, therefore “lazy”, but she also said she wasn't feeling well.  Since nothing else she had ever done, before or after, supported the conclusion that her behavior that day was typical, I'll always choose to take her at her word that she was simply feeling ill.

Edited November 10, 2014 by LydiaMoon1

[caracas1914]

In funeral if was Jessie trying  rile people up but Mercedes even admitted she didn't practice.   Rachel they had her imitate the song as it was shown in Funny Girl so she did some preparations

 

.

However the specific point that Jesse pointed out, Mercedes' lack of choreography didn't really apply because, like Rachel, she was doing a vocal interpretation of the song.  Rachel channeling Barbara Streisand by just just standing there imitating her facial tics as "preparation" is really stretching things IMO.

 

The only character who did some choreography (and I use that term loosely) in their audition was Kurt (Santana was also a park and bark) yet Jesse pointedly skewered their performances as lacking in something  while praising Rachel to the sky.

 

This just goes back that there really wasn't any basis to suddenly sprout out that Mercedes was alarmingly lazy and lacked discipline in Season 3.   It also points out  that the assumption  the show lazily wanted  the audience to have  that Rachel was "good enough" in everything she did was never actually shown on screen.

Edited November 10, 2014 by caracas1914

[LydiaMoon1]

Exactly.  One of the many examples of Glee's "Tell, Don't Show" lazy writing.

[tom87]

I guess I see special snowflake differently.  For me a character to be  special they would mature and get to be right once in awhile.   Instead with Rachel if they need to have a obstacle in someone else's life then think hey just make Rachel do something bad.  

 

She has to be both antagonist and protagonist.

 

I truly get why people are frustration and well resentful but as a Rachel fan is annoys me she isn't allow to grow.  When she has taken a step forward they always manage to push her  back at least 3 steps soon afterwards.  Now they have pushed her all the way back to Lima doing things that she would have never done  because she has said over and over again she wanted bway she wanted NY.  She said NY was for the work you do unlike LA is the work you have done.  Or how she was even scared of being blackballed for sneaking into the Wicked treater,etc.   

 

But is also frustrating too to see what I think was a great character who was unapologetically ambitious first be destroyed with the engagement story and then be cheated out a what should have been a easy arc to write in NY.      Cassie could  humble her some but Rachel over come that. She should have been able to go on bad audition and get bad gigs.  Maybe predictable but it could have been fun if the writers had any real imagination.   Hell they could have watched old That Girl reruns for inspiration.

[caracas1914]

NY was doomed because RIB never envisioned it as the main narrative. They simply rushed to destroy it in 7 episodes so they could shove everyone back to Lima. Most showrunners have the common sense to grasp that a succesful show is a combination of the chemistry of the actors and the setting as an important but lesser factor, the Glee writers utterly deconstructed all they had set up for Rachel for 4 1/2 years.

[tom87]

NY was doomed because RIB never envisioned it as the main narrative. They simply rushed to destroy it in 7 episodes so they could shove everyone back to Lima. Most showrunners have the common sense to grasp that a succesful show is a combination of the chemistry of the actors and the setting as an important but lesser factor, the Glee writers utterly deconstructed all they had set up for Rachel for 4 1/2 years.

It was doomed as of episode 5 in season 4 imo.   It total broke down when they gave NY about 3 minutes of actual screen time in 3 episodes.

[caracas1914]

Yet even with the neglect in S4 once the Noobs were phased out they could have accepted NY in Season 5 as the narrative.

[camussie]

Regarding acting I think Cory was the strongest actor among the "kids."  That was his strength.  The reason I say this is because of how he transformed his entire bearing as Finn and also because I can look at any Glee clip and never catch Cory not being Finn even when Finn is in the background of a scene.  

 

I would say Chris, Lea, and Naya also are also the top tier when it comes to the kids.  

 

As for as the adults Matt is also a very good actor and, as I have said many a time, has always been the only true triple threat in the cast.  That said out of this three talents, acting is not as developed as the other two.  Jayma is excellent.  Her scene with her therapist in season 3 is one of the stand-out scenes of the entire series.  Dot and Jane are also very strong but I probably can't look past my disdain over some very obvious Emmy bait episodes for Jane to be objective about her talents.  

Edited November 19, 2014 by camussie

[Sara2009]

Regarding acting I think Cory was the strongest actor among the "kids." That was his strength. The reason I say this is because of how he transformed his entire bearing as Finn and also

because I can look at any Glee clip and never

catch Cory not being Finn even when Finn is in

the background of a scene.

I would say Chris, Lea, and Naya also are also the top tier when it comes to the kids.

As for as the adults Matt is also a very good

actor and as I have said many a time he was

the only true triple threat in the cast. That said

out of this three talents acting was not as

developed as the other two. Jayma was

excellent. Her scene with her therapist in

season 3 is one of the stand-out scenes of the

entire series. Dot and Jane are also very strong

but I probably can't look past my disdain over

some very obvious Emmy bait episodes for Jane

to be objective about her talents.

FWIW, Matt would agree with you. He's always considered himself a song and dance man who happens to act.

[jaytee1812]

I have to say the only reason I think Jane Lynch is a good actress is due to her work on Criminal Minds. If I was going solely based on Glee I would assume she had dirt on Ryan Murphy, she's been phoning it in since season 2. 

 

I think Matt showed what a great actor he is, he seemed to give everything with even the worst scripts. 

 

I swear I see a different Lea than others, the one I watch has never met the word nuance.

 

I think Naya's but no leading lady, but I don't think she wants to be.

 

Chris is the best actor on this show, he'll never be a leading man because that how the world works, at least for now. But he'll never stop working. 

 

I'd watch Dianna read the phonebook, seriously I think she oozes talent from every pore. Quinn should've been a one note hate figure, especially season 2, but she made the audience empathise with Quinn. 

 

It funny on this show I sometimes judge an actors ability on their reactions rather than how the act the writing (some of them had no chance with the writing). I watch Blake Jenner watching other people's performances for days. 

 

The only truly bad actor on the show is Chord. 

[Sara2009]

I think Chord did some of his best work in his scenes with Matt in " City of Angels." I doubt that was a coincidence.

[camussie]

The way you feel about Lea (lack of nuance) is the way I feel about many of Chris' performances, especially last season.  I thought he was very good in early seasons, even as I felt the writing became increasing grating for Kurt, but last season I felt he was one note.  That said the writing was terrible so I chalked it up to that more than anything.  

 

As for Dianna, I really didn't empathize with Quinn at all in season 2.  There were some scenes where I think I was supposed to but I didn't.  

 

As far as bad actors I agree Chord is consistently the worst actor on the show.  That said when Mark Salling puts in a poor performance he does so in spectacular fashion.  His acting hasn't taken me out of a scene as consistently as Chord's but when he has taken me out of a scene he has done so completely.  In other words when he is bad he is downright awful.  

Edited November 19, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

What I find ironic is that what others criticize (not necessarily you Casmussie) , usually Klainers, about Chris acting, ie that he doesn't show puppy dog in love with Blaine in scenes actually reinforces to  me what a good actor he is.

 

Kurt is wary, defensive and and bit confused with the SL's with Blaine, especially as his character has to wade through the needy insecurities of his fiance.  So it makes no sense to me that Kurt would be all happy in love giddy when neither the scripts nor SL's portray their relationship (from his POV) that way.   It's tricky, because even the show kept returning back to the cheating SL with Kurt with references and jokes.  The writers have made the character somewhat  guarded and ambivalent  and definitely not some naive teenage boy in love.

Edited November 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

For me it has nothing to do with Blaine but rather it is the default to "stick up his backside"  in his interactions with every character, including Blaine.  Now a lot of that is the writing but some of it, especially this last season, I felt was Chris' choices.  To be honest I felt like Chris reached the "going through the motions" point of his tenure on Glee around the time of "Trio."

Edited November 19, 2014 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

As far as bad actors I agree Chord is consistently the worst actor on the show.  That said when Mark Salling puts in a poor performance he does so in spectacular fashion.  His acting hasn't taken me out of a scene as consistently as Chord's but when he has taken me out of a scene he has done so completely.  In other words when he is bad he is downright awful.  

 

I think either Mark has to have at least half decent writing or if the writing sucks he can't be arsed. But he can actually be excellent at times. 

 

I'm never sure if I'm harsh on Chord's talents or he really is that bad. I just loathe the character of Sam, and have more and more as Glee has gone on. I loathe that he replaced a black man then got instantly more screen time and song time. I loathe how he's always the good guy even when he's being a massive dickhead. And frankly if a female character had gone round the glee club the way Sam has gone round the woman unpleasant words would be used to describe her.