Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Advance35]

I also disagree that the RW isn't still being felt on the show. I thought Olenna's comments in season 4 at Joffrey's wedding made it apparent that the RW was definitely a big deal and the faces in the crowd at the wedding during the performance of the dwarves made it clear to me that the RW isn't being treated as though it has been forgotten about.

 

I didn't think the crowd was terribly bothered by the Robb Stark mocking during Joffrey's wedding ceremony.   I don't think we really start to hear about how aborhent many found the Red Wedding until after ASOS.   I think it was in AFFC that Cersei's council says the small folk in Kings Landing constantly go on about how the Kingdom is cursed because the RW was an unfront to all the God's.   And I think the Faith went on about it too didn't they?

 

The book also benefited from of course more exposition but also Dany's HoTUD vision.   I mean the RW was so infamous images of it appeared in a magical hall on the other side of the world before it had even played out.   But with the Faith moving to a position of prominence in the upcoming season D&D could bring up and display just  how horrified the realm was by the whole thing.

 

As for the Tyrell's not feeling any heat from being in bed with the Lannisters during the Red Wedding.  I think it's situations like this that motivate them to operate the way that they do.   They didn't take any heat from the RW, they didn't even take any heat for causing mass starvation in CoK by closing the trade routes to Kings Landing.   They are that "good."  By the end of Book 3 they have the masses of Kings Landing in love with them and tolerating the Lannisters on sufferance and they cant match House Lannister Noble for Noble in terms of controling the Royal Court.   I think the show did do a disservice white washing them in certain ways.   We are never really shown that House Tyrell is willing to starve the commoners to death in order to cement their grip on the throne, they really downplay just how predatory Olenna and Margaery were in terms of their befriending Sansa.   Once using her to get a grip on the North isn't an option, in the books it's very much conveyed that the Tyrells couldn't care less about her and their friendship was all an act when they thought she would be useful, the show for whatever reason didn't choose to highlight Margaery's less than savory traits so they kept her as a voice of encouragement for Sansa even after the Lannisters derailed their scheme.

 

I dread Cersei's Season 5 material because of just how much they've white-washed her more horrifying actions.   They threw the murder of Roberts bastards on Joffrey, they removed her plan to have Sansa murdered if House Lannister loss the Battle of Blackwater and I doubt they will show just how despicable she was while in charge in Kings Landing, 10 to 1 we won't see her sending poor victims down to Qyburn for his "works".   After her WoS I bet half the internet is going to want her to sit the Iron Throne in the end.

 

As for Ramsay, I believe the actor is well known in certain circles and came with a built in fanbase.  But I'm one of the few that wasn't terribly moved by Theon's story in Book 5.   I liked the insight into the Northern Political situation and getting to see the manuevers of Lady Dustin and Lord Manderly, but him for himself....meh.

 

I'm not worried about them dragging their feet in terms of storylines, I think Bran and Sansa's Season 4 showings displayed that this train is going to keep moving.  I'm hoping as speculated it means that there are a LOT more twist and turns to the story and they know they are going to need the time to play it all out.   I think Jon Snow will meet his ADWD fate this coming season, I think Theon reach his end of Book 5 destination as will Dany,  I'm under the impression (maybe incorrectly) that Cersei's WoS is in Episode 7 or 8, so I'm thinking we may get a more definitive  look at where she and the Queen Trials are headed.    Up in the air is what is ahead for Mace Tyrell, Olenna, Littlefinger, Sansa, Brienne and Jaimie.

[Avaleigh]

10 to 1 we won't see her sending poor victims down to Qyburn for his "works".

 

 

I actually think this one is going to happen. Pycelle called him out on why he was expelled from the Citadel and Cersei asked about it as well so I feel like this is definitely going to come up again. 

 

We are never really shown that House Tyrell is willing to starve the commoners to death in order to cement their grip on the throne, they really downplay just how predatory Olenna and Margaery were in terms of their befriending Sansa.

 

 

This was definitely disappointing to me. I wonder if they're trying to make Margaery more sympathetic so that her eventual execution will be more of a blow.

[Pete Martell]

The Wall: I got no fucking clue. We know that the LC election is this season, but I hope to God they don't drag it out all season long. But where do you really go after that? Will Jon's stabbing end the season? The wildlings inside the Wall? What about Sam? Is he making the trip to become a Maester? Have they cut that? Is Stannis and Davos spending the entire year at the Wall? I really think setting up "The Watchers on the Wall," as the big episode nine moment was a huge mistake. I think Jon and Stannis' plotlines for season four and five would have benefited a lot from those two meeting sooner. It put the writers in a situation where they needed to create a lot of pointless filler to fill time to get to episode nine. Which leads me to a worse case scenario for season six.

 

A few weeks ago someone posted a photo of the Wall group at a pub. Everyone of the main group (even Stephen Dillane, whom I rarely see in these photos) was there, aside from Liam Cunningham. After seeing that I really do wonder if Davos will be sent away for the Rickon story. If Rickon even still exists on the show...

 

http://bailarina-raven.tumblr.com/post/101445035850/got-cast-at-halloween

Edited November 15, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Holmbo]

I get to confused when I try to speculate in detail about season 5 cause there's so many directions they could go for each story line.

With the kingslanding story line I'll add that littlefinger has been seen filming there. Most likely they needed something extra for him to do so they had him coming for tywins funeral or something. It would fit with your speculation that brienne will be with sansa because then there'll be someone else for her to have scenes with.

I'm not either excited for the dorne story line. Romance and invented "strong" female characters has not been great so far. I wouldn't rule out character development of Jaime though. D&D knows where his supposed to end up, for all we know they could go beyond the book for his development.

With the north story line I feel like the winterfell plot will set the pace. How many episodes can we have of Ramsay torturing winerfell worker? They'll need that story to move forward and that will affect the wall. Though not considering that I think there's enough book material to cover a season no problem. They'll have the election and jon struggling with stannis offer and then Jon letting the wildlings through and dealing with the unhappiness of the other nightswatch people. And the banker might come by. Then they'll probably just have some general interaction scenes between the different characters. There are lots of pairings I'd like to see.

[benteen]

A few weeks ago someone posted a photo of the Wall group at a pub. Everyone of the main group (even Stephen Dillane, whom I rarely see in these photos) was there, aside from Liam Cunningham. After seeing that I really do wonder if Davos will be sent away for the Rickon story. If Rickon even still exists on the show...

 

http://bailarina-raven.tumblr.com/post/101445035850/got-cast-at-Halloween

 

I'm hoping we get a scene between Davos and Jon.  I was disappointed when we didn't get one in ADWD.

 

I don't need to see episode after episode or Ramsay torturing Fake Arya.  But I think it needs to be made clear how much of a sadist he's being.  The show has taken some of the edge off of him and they shouldn't take anymore.

[mac123x]

I hope that info about Myranda being Fake Arya is wrong, mainly because I think a lot of people would see it as immersion-breaking.  Myranda is a grown woman while Arya is still a girl.  Even though no one in the North has seen Arya in a couple of years, passing off a 20-something as a 12 year old girl is so implausible that either a) everyone knows she's a fake in which case, what's the point, or b) everyone in the North is really really stupid.  Either choice would knock down my suspension of disbelief.

 

Regarding a Branless season:

Finally, why on Earth does Benioff say that "ideally that wouldn’t have gotten out and it’s unfortunate it did"? It's not like it's an exciting plot twist that a character doesn't appear in the series for a year. I see no downside to the word getting out; viewers who are fans of the character won't be constantly disappointed next season waiting for him to appear, viewers who aren't fans will be glad he's not appearing, and those who are indifferent won't care either way.

 

The Producer doth protest too much, methinks.  This reminds me of their comment that "don't expect to see white ravens.  We looked up and down, and there aren't any in Europe".  Cue Episode 2.01 with white ravens.  I now fully expect a "holy crap, it's Bran!" cameo at some point.

[Notwisconsin]

The way things are going. I think we will be all unsullied by season seven. They may have run out of book by the middle of season six.

[benteen]

I agree with you.  We MIGHT get Winds of Winter and stave things off for a year but no way will we even sniff A Dream of Spring (or a likely eighth book) but the time the show is over.

[benteen]

Although this should go in a media or merchandise thread, they just released a trailer to this new Game of Thrones video game, featuring voice work from several of the actors (although this one is strictly Lena Headey)

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/11/20/first-trailer-telltales-game-thrones-released/

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2014/11/20/telltale-game-of-thrones/70008338/

 

The House here is House Forester, briefly mentioned in ADWD (Lady Glover sends Forester scouts with Stannis to help him get to Winterfell).  13 members of the family have been profiled by Telltale.

Edited November 21, 2014 by benteen

[Hecate7]

Yeah, the people who know/suspect don't generally appear to have done so based on their public behaviour; I think only Tyrion may have guessed based on that, but he's far closer to Jaime than most, very intelligent, and not inclined to be blind on that score.  Varys presumably knows because he's got his agents hidden in the walls listening to them bone.  Stannis suspected it based on hair colour, and relayed that suspicion to Jon Arryn and Ned for further investigation based on various objective factors around genetics, etc., before broadcasting the rumour throughout the Seven Kingdoms, which is how Olenna heard about it.  We don't really know how Littlefinger heard about it; he may have guessed beforehand, or he may have just be apprised of Arryn's investigation and made his own evaluation.

It is so idiotic of Stannis to suspect Joffrey's illegitimacy based on hair color, when HIS OWN daughter is blonde.

It's really all rather silly.

[SeanC]

It is so idiotic of Stannis to suspect Joffrey's illegitimacy based on hair color, when HIS OWN daughter is blonde.

It's really all rather silly.

Stannis wasn't involved in the show version of events.  Jon Arryn was working solo, and Stannis learned of it only through Ned's message (which got through in the TV show, unlike in the book).

[Avaleigh]

Still for Stannis to be willing to jump on the hair thing as proof when little blonde Shireen is his only heir--it kind of makes him seem like a bit of a hypocrite. (Not to mention the odd fact that Selyse doesn't seem like she was ever a natural blonde at any point. )

I think we're already in the Unsullied period. It was marked with the Night's King revelation and we're probably going to get book six Sansa among other little things.

As far as Natalie's been there done that comment regarding Margaery's possible execution- -I don't think it really means anything. In order for the plot to really move forward I feel like Margaery has to be taken out of the equation. The idea of both queens winning their trials easily feels like the most boring and pointless choice. One winning and one losing or both losing would make the most sense in terms of the story. If the story has one survive I think Cersei makes the most sense because she's needed to turn things up in KL. Plus there's the Jaime factor--they need to see each other one last time. If Margaery survives then what do we have? Margaery making sensible decisions and life more or less going on as before until Aegon walks in to the Red Keep? I feel like having Margaery survive would be like choosing bread and water when the other option is a champagne breakfast buffet. Margaery's death opens the door to so many possibilities. This isn't the case so much if she ends up living.

For the books I'm still half sold on the theory that Margaery had been having an affair with Aurane Waters and that Aurane was kind of flirting with Cersei in order to us her as a sort of decoy. There are really only a couple of quotes to support the theory but the show playing up Margaery's sexuality makes me think they're doing so for a specific reason namely to do with her eventual arrest and trial. I can't look the quotes up right now but one comes on the night where the Reach is attacked and Margaery starts telling Cersei what they must do. Cersei thinks that Margaery looks "flushed" and her hair looks tousled as though she's just come from the bed of a lover. Every other person on the small council is described as having been woken up and sleepy with the notable exception of Aurane Waters who seems already to have been up.

There's also his tie to House Velaryon. Part of me feels like he might end up being slightly more important to the story only because House Velaryon has played such an important role in TWOIAF in the past.

I lean towards us only hearing about him in the peripheral sense like with

that brief mention in TWoW

but I'd still like it if there turned out to be more to his story than is popularly thought.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Advance35]

I might be able to see Margaery making a flub like that on the show, where I think she's been shown to not be as stringently "on" as she is in the books, but I can't see her rolling the dice in such a manner while she is in the Red Keep.    She is perfectly aware that Cersei is out to get her (something even House Martell is hearing from their own spies in Court and the small folk apparently), I can't see her taking a lover.   Not with so much at stake.

 

Though it's been a little while since I read AFFC but didn't Aurane Waters side with Cersei in the Courtly Feud?   I thought I remember him smirking and laughing with Cersei when she said she would need to give Margaery the sad news about Loras on Dragonstone.     And he didn't just abandon Cersei when she was seized by the Faith, Margaery was still a prisoner at the time as well.   Though I won't rule  your theory out, this series has turned many characters on their heads.

[Constantinople]

I find it hard to believe that TV Margaery would be stupid enough to have an affair with someone.  That would eviscerate the character they've developed over the 3 seasons.  Margaery may not have been devious enough yet to figure out her grandmother off'd Joff without receiving strong hints, and may have felt the strain of always being "on" with a madman like Joffrey, but she's smart enough to know the political basics backwards and forwards.

 

Also, as Advance35 mentioned in the Winds of Winter thread, executing Margaery for adultery, particularly if she's innocent, is far too derivative of Anne Boleyn.  Does anyone know how much Martin has briefed D&D about what ultimately happens to the characters?  If I knew Margaery would eventually get the Anne Boleyn treatment, Natalie Dormer is about the last person on Earth I would cast as Margaery, no matter how perfect she might otherwise seem for the role.  This part of story will seem immensely dull to many viewers if it's nothing more than The Tudors Deux.

 

Besides, even if Margaery is found innocent at her trial, she can still be murdered later, her innocence being a kind of false dawn of safety.  Perhaps someone tries to off Tommen and accidentally gets Margaery.  Perhaps someone takes out Tommen and Margaery together.

 

I'm also a bit partial to Tommen dying before Margaery so that she hits the murdered husband trifecta.  Plus, once Tommen's dead, Margaery is essentially taken out of the king/queen equation.  Killing her at that point is superfluous.

 

This isn't to say any of this will happen.  As forecasting goes, I'm as useless as nipples on a breastplate.

[Winnief]

I too think Margery will lose her trial-not because she's guilty but because the fix will be in; other parties, (Varys, sand snakes) will see to it that she's killed to obliterate the Tyrell-Lannister alliance as the one thing standing between Arianne/fAegon's rule-or on the show the one force left that would be a real challenge for Dany besides the supernatural threats.  Of course if Margery dies the gods alone know what her brothers do-which is why Finn's hints about Loras being important next season seem intriguing. 

 

Also it's gonna sound insane but I have a theory that once Margery's gone and the Tyrell alliance with it that Cersei will in a last desperate attempt to cling to power align herself with and possibly even marry Euron Greyjoy to have his fleet backing her in the Westernlands after retreating to Casterly Rock.  (Which we have yet to see but definitely will.)

[GreyBunny]

Natalie Dormer had one other role where she played a beheaded queen, that hardly puts her in Sean Bean territory.  There were people (me included) who were shocked Ned Stark was killed even though Sean Bean was cast (I hadn't read the books yet).  I don't think casting Natalie as Margaery is in itself a spoiler that she ends up beheaded.

 

I'd also like to see her end up with the dead king trifecta, but should that happen, I agree she becomes superfluous once Tommen dies.  Since the show appears to be cutting Aegon out of the picture, her death might be a catalyst for the armies of the Reach splitting in two and fighting each other.

Edited November 22, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Hecate7]

Stannis wasn't involved in the show version of events.  Jon Arryn was working solo, and Stannis learned of it only through Ned's message (which got through in the TV show, unlike in the book).

Yes, he was involved in the show version of events. He waged war on Joffrey based on Ned's raven stating that Joffrey was illegitimate. I call that pretty involved. He would not have brought an army against his own nephew, in either the books or the show, had he believed his nephew to be legitimate

 

Stannis entire basis for believing Joffrey to be illegitimate, is that blonde hair, which in the books makes sense because Shireen is black of hair, and so there are no exceptions to that whole, "black of hair" thing. Any exceptions make Ned a fool, but for the exception to be Stannis' heir makes Ned, Stannis, and pretty much everyone involved on any level a fool. On the show, it is simply the most moronic plot point/makeup choice/complete contempt for the entire premise of the show that I've ever seen on television. Completely, utterly stupid. And how sad that not one of the makeup people knows how to put a wig on a little girl, or open a box of Feria.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Hecate7

[Dev F]

Stannis entire basis for believing Joffrey to be illegitimate, is that blonde hair, which in the books makes sense because Shireen is black of hair, and so there are no exceptions to that whole, "black of hair" thing. Any exceptions make Ned a fool, but for the exception to be Stannis' heir makes Ned, Stannis, and pretty much everyone involved on any level a fool. On the show, it is simply the most moronic plot point/makeup choice/complete contempt for the entire premise of the show that I've ever seen on television. Completely, utterly stupid. And how sad that not one of the makeup people knows how to put a wig on a little girl, or open a box of Feria.

 

It's possible that they experimented with giving her black hair and it looked bad with her coloring or something. The strange thing is that her hair looks pretty dark brown most of the time, especially in the shadows of Dragonstone, but it has super strong highlights that end up looking very light blonde in certain lights. (shrug) It bugs me a little but I don't find it especially contemptuous; I can suspend disbelief and imagine that her hair is dark enough not to count as non-Baratheon coloring in people's eyes.

 

But if you want an in-universe explanation, I suppose you could imagine that she was born with black hair and the greyscale lightened it somehow.

[SeanC]

Yes, he was involved in the show version of events. He waged war on Joffrey based on Ned's raven stating that Joffrey was illegitimate. I call that pretty involved. He would not have brought an army against his own nephew, in either the books or the show, had he believed his nephew to be legitimate

 

Stannis entire basis for believing Joffrey to be illegitimate, is that blonde hair, which in the books makes sense because Shireen is black of hair, and so there are no exceptions to that whole, "black of hair" thing. Any exceptions make Ned a fool, but for the exception to be Stannis' heir makes Ned, Stannis, and pretty much everyone involved on any level a fool. On the show, it is simply the most moronic plot point/makeup choice/complete contempt for the entire premise of the show that I've ever seen on television. Completely, utterly stupid. And how sad that not one of the makeup people knows how to put a wig on a little girl, or open a box of Feria.

We don't know what information Ned gave Stannis in that regard, just that he said he was illegitimate.

 

That said, yeah, Shireen being blonde is a weird detail that you would think could have been avoided.

[Hecate7]

It's possible that they experimented with giving her black hair and it looked bad with her coloring or something.

 

She's meant to be ill. It would be just fine if she had black hair that made her look too pale. She's as blonde as Joffrey. She is blonder than any of the adult Lannisters. That's just wildly dumb, unless they've decided she's also illegitimate, or that perhaps Stannis is.

 

If Elvis Presley could do it in the fifties, surely we now have the technology to make a blonde into a convincing brunette, and vice versa. At the same time that they appear to scruple to go more than two shades lighter or darker on anyone, they have the flattest, worst dye-jobs on the Lannisters, and didn't even try to darken the Baratheons so there'd be a little contrast. Would it have killed them to put some highlights in their hair? Or a bit of violet rinse to take down the brass? I do find it very distracting, but not nearly as distracting as Blondie Baratheon. I like the actress, but would it have killed them to at least take her down to say, espresso, like Renly and Stannis? Unless she's meant to be the secret child of Jamie Lannister, too. I guess that'd be ok.

[Constantinople]

I've stopped worrying about hair color.

They've totally given up on Tyrion and Jaime's alleged golden / blond hair. Perhaps an excuse could be made for Jaime while he was in captivity and roaming around the countryside, but even Season 4 Jaimie was, at best, a very dirty blond. These days Tyrion most often looks like a brownish red (or reddish brown).

For that matter, Tywin had grey hair mixed with some red or orange; Kevan was salt & pepper; Martyn had brown hair, perhaps so we wouldn't confuse him with Tommen version 2; and Alton may as well have been a Baratheon. I know that Lannisters don't all have golden or blond hair, but when most of them don't, it's not much of a family feature.

I'm not positive, but I thought there were some scenes in Season 1 or 2 when Dany's hair was more gold/blond/yellow than it should have been (which is to say, not at all).

For that matter, Brienne looks like she has yellowish blond hair, but in some scenes, depending on the artificial lighting, the location of the sun, etc, it looks as if she has platinum blond Targaryen hair (and no, I'm not sugesting Brienne is actually a Targaryen).

So I'm not sweating Shireen's hair.

It would be nice, however, if they could get Melisandre a decent wig. Cersei's Sesaon 1 hair was god awful, but it improved over time. Couldn't they give Meli a break?

[Hecate7]

It would be nice, however, if they could get Melisandre a decent wig. Cersei's Sesaon 1 hair was god awful, but it improved over time. Couldn't they give Meli a break?

I think they may just have a bad or indifferent makeup person, or perhaps no makeup person at all.

 

Cersei's hair gradually acquired a couple of highlights, but I couldn't believe what it looked like season one--I figured they wanted us to dislike her or something, and withheld highlights so that she'd read as someone hateful. I had not read the books yet when I first saw her, but I assumed at the time that was what was going on.

 

Danaerys' hair is a wig. There is no excuse for it to be any color other than platinum or white. I get the feeling that the California crew simply haven't read the books and never wish to, and that someone foolishly told them, "don't worry about it too much," so now that's what we're getting. People not worrying about it too much.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Hecate7

[jjjmoss]

 This part of story will seem immensely dull to many viewers if it's nothing more than The Tudors Deux.

Lol, good thing GoT is massively more popular than The Tudors and those "many viewers" are a small minority. And anyway, I'm guessing most viewers find at least a few of the storylines immensely dull, so what's new?

[Winnief]

On consideration while I'm still convinced that poor Margaery *will* die, I'm not so sure it will be at the hands of the Faith.  She could very well win her Trial and while basking in her moment of triumph be cut down-which would be just like Martin.  Cersei might succeed in having her killed, (I've heard one scenario involving Robert Strong,) the Dornish (to destroy what's left of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance,) or Varys for the same reasons and it would actually make sense for the latter two to frame Cersei for it.  Those last two actually seem especially likely to me. 

[Advance35]

I too think Margery will lose her trial-not because she's guilty but because the fix will be in; other parties, (Varys, sand snakes) will see to it that she's killed to obliterate the Tyrell-Lannister alliance as the one thing standing between Arianne/fAegon's rule-or on the show the one force left that would be a real challenge for Dany besides the supernatural threats.  Of course if Margery dies the gods alone know what her brothers do-which is why Finn's hints about Loras being important next season seem intriguing.

 

House Tyrell was scheming for control of the Iron Throne and the Royal Court of Kings Landing before the story began.   Loras Tyrell was in Kings Landing operating as a Honey Trap for Renly Baratheon.   Even if he did have genuine feelings for him.   With Renly, a member of the ruling House of Westeros (at the time), House Tyrell was plotting ways to undermine and subplant House Lannister.   By ensnaring Robert Baratheon.   When Robert died they propped Renly up as King.   And of course we see the mess that's come of them joining up with House Lannister, but my point is I don't think House Tyrell will stop or cease their moves for control of the Iron Throne, Margaery or No Margaery.   I can't imagine how they would attempt to hold onto the Throne but I feel like they would.    Since we know Olenna will be back in Kings Landing during Season 5, which contrast with her Book Counterpoint, I'm curious to see what kind of interactions she'll have.   I'm especially hopeful of seeing her with an onscreen dynamic with Littlefinger. GRRM has said we will see Olenna in the books again and IMO I think the most likely POV's for that are Cersei and (though I don't know how they could meet up again) Sansa.

 

GRRM has gone on record saying that we will see a lot of the Sand Snakes in TWOW, so I think the story will definitely have another BIG political shift of some kind and since 2 of the more prominent Sand Snakes are on their way to Kings Landing I think they will definitely be intricately involved.  So Lady Nym or Tyene playing a role in the death of either Tommen and/or Margaery isn't far-fetched IMO.

[Holmbo]

I have a theoretical question about the show that I'd like to hear your thoughts on.

If the show runners weren't restricted by actors contacts and other such things and they wanted to keep the show going for as many seasons as possible. How long do you think they could stretch it before the viewership begun to drop due to people losing interest?

Right now I'm assuming d&d plans to start wrapping things up after the show passes the books. Not imideately but gradually. Like I expect many to head for westeros in season six.

But if they wanted to stretch things longer how far could they go? I'd say the jon and dany plots would be the limiting factors. Cause kingslanding could just keep going. Like cersei losses her trial and get executed, the tyrells take tommen as a puppet but then the ironborn attacks kingslanding...

How long do you think they could go? I'd say 9 seasons total but Jon's plot would be very boring for season 6-8

Dany's story would work by having her come too westeros and stir things up there.

[Avaleigh]

I think it could easily have gone for eight or nine seasons. For me though it isn't the number of seasons so much as the number of episodes that I've always wished would be bumped up. It seems that the showrunners care more about always having a premiere in April as opposed to having the necessary number of episodes to (IMO) properly tell the story.

 

There really isn't any reason that the second season shouldn't have been 12 episodes and really the first one should have been as well. I understand though that the show was a gamble they weren't sure was going to pay off so I give them more of a pass on season 1 but season 2 they should have just gone balls out full throttle for the BoB--it could easily have taken place over the course of two episodes. The tourney in season 1 likewise should have been on a much larger scale.

 

Also, the whole flashback/dream sequence issue--if they'd had more time this would have been something that was always a part of the show instead of only via Bran on occasion. I won't be surprised if there's a negative response to the Cersei flashback/s since they'll sort of feel like they're coming out of nowhere. 

 

Expanding on the North, the Iron Islands (via Euron and maybe Victarion), the Riverlands, Oldtown, stuff with the wildlings (like the missed opportunity to have that woods witch lead the wildings to Hardhome), watered down or altogether eliminated fighting scenes (e.g. Whispering Wood), etc. All of these things could have been possible with extra episodes per season.

 

Re: Margaery, I think it would be extremely lame if the showrunners let what happened on The Tudors have an impact on Margaery's story just because the actress happens to be the same. IMO it makes no sense to have both queens win their trials after all of that build up so one or both of them have to lose and Margaery makes the most sense if the story is going to move forward as opposed to staying in the same place. 

[Holmbo]

I believe d&d when they say that the quality would be less if they where to make more episodes. Sure they could take longer than a year to produce each season but I think that would bring on other logistics problems. I don't know the details of such things though so I'm only speculating.

I don't necessary buy the thought that many fans have that more episodes per season would mean a better show. They'd still have the same budget right? So it'd be less money for each episode.

Also I feel like many book readers make the mistake of thinking I'd they have time they'd keep things more faithful to the book when I don't necessary think that's true. There's lots of reasons for changing things in an adaption.

[ElizaD]

I'm not sure GOT could do more than 7-8 seasons without falling apart. Maybe that's because I can't remember watching a non-episodic/comedy show that lasted so long; Buffy had 7 seasons and 4-7, especially 6-7, inspired increasing fan controversy/general apathy. GOT has a lot of problems Buffy didn't: huge cast in diverse locations, historical sets/costumes/props, large battles, more expensive CGI. The only positive might be that they know how the Stark/Lannister/Targaryen stories have to end instead of needing to come up with new stuff every time the show gets an extra year, but that also means they have less room to maneuver or end things quickly. The delays would be worse: the White Walkers and the dragons were introduced in season 1 and would look pretty ineffective if they weren't in a battle until season 7-8; perhaps that's why we got the Craster's son reveal in season 4 and might see some version of the Battle of Meereen in season 5. GOT thrives on shock twists and that part of its appeal would be watered down if the show put main characters on the bench for the sake of worldbuilding and newbies chatting in Oldtown.

 

Natalie Dormer:

 

In one particular scene, Dormer’s character Margaery Tyrell is forced to seduce the boy-king Tommen Baratheon. The boy-king is supposed to be approximately 13-years-old at the time of that scene, making for an uncomfortable situation for anyone. Natalie Dormer explained how she handled it to the Daily Beast.

    “That scene was altered because I phoned Dan [Weiss] and David [benioff] and said, ‘I’m not comfortable doing this.’ It’s the nature of the beast that I’m four years into playing Margaery Tyrell and the big plot points of the book are in stone.”

Still, it’s what George R.R. Martin wrote. Luckily, Dormer explained that there was still something they could do for the show.

    “George R.R. Martin wrote a particular plot line, so on the specifics of Margaery and Tommen getting married, there’s nothing I can do. On the show, we had to find a way to navigate that in a sensitive way. There’s more of it next season too, and we’re trying to handle it with intelligence, and integrity.”

 

Jaime/Cersei was messy enough; knowing this show, the original version of Margaery/Tommen was more sexual, so I'm glad they went with the kitten and girl-next-door charm instead of the "hot older woman seduces teen" angle.

 

The British actress also recently appeared on Conan O’Brien to talk about her character’s future in the series, which is precarious at best. Dormer said that in Season 5, the TV series will catch up to Margaery Tyrell’s storyline in the book part way through the season, and from that point forward her character might be killed off at any time. As Natalie explained, she’ll be in the “fraternity of What the f*** is going to happen to me now?”

Natalie Dormer hopes that if her character is set for the chopping block, she’ll at least go out with a bang.

[benteen]

I think it could easily have gone for eight or nine seasons. For me though it isn't the number of seasons so much as the number of episodes that I've always wished would be bumped up. It seems that the showrunners care more about always having a premiere in April as opposed to having the necessary number of episodes to (IMO) properly tell the story.

 

There really isn't any reason that the second season shouldn't have been 12 episodes and really the first one should have been as well. I understand though that the show was a gamble they weren't sure was going to pay off so I give them more of a pass on season 1 but season 2 they should have just gone balls out full throttle for the BoB--it could easily have taken place over the course of two episodes. The tourney in season 1 likewise should have been on a much larger scale.

 

Also, the whole flashback/dream sequence issue--if they'd had more time this would have been something that was always a part of the show instead of only via Bran on occasion. I won't be surprised if there's a negative response to the Cersei flashback/s since they'll sort of feel like they're coming out of nowhere. 

 

Expanding on the North, the Iron Islands (via Euron and maybe Victarion), the Riverlands, Oldtown, stuff with the wildlings (like the missed opportunity to have that woods witch lead the wildings to Hardhome), watered down or altogether eliminated fighting scenes (e.g. Whispering Wood), etc. All of these things could have been possible with extra episodes per season.

 

Re: Margaery, I think it would be extremely lame if the showrunners let what happened on The Tudors have an impact on Margaery's story just because the actress happens to be the same. IMO it makes no sense to have both queens win their trials after all of that build up so one or both of them have to lose and Margaery makes the most sense if the story is going to move forward as opposed to staying in the same place. 

 

In fairness, the battle of the Whispering Wood was only about 3-5 pages in AGOT and it was only described in the most general terms.  Though I thought it hurt not to be able to show a battle scene in the first scene.

 

I definitely wish we could get 2-3 episodes more a season.  I don't think the show needs to go on past seven seasons but the extra episodes would help immensely. 

[Carrie Ann]

Yikes, thank God for Natalie Dormer. How hard is it to think about these things, D&D?

[ElizaD]

:

 

There was one scene that I did do which is super, super traumatic and I love doing those scenes, and it was just really kind of horrible for everyone to be on set and watch, but those kind of scenes are what, like, feed me. That’s why I started acting, to do all the crappy, horrible stuff.

 

I'm hoping desperately that this isn't yet another rape scene and Sophie is just hyping her storyline the way she did before season 3, making it sound much more eventful than it actually is. S5 is already going to have the walk of shame and the criticism of the show's use of rape became a little more mainstream in the response to Jaime/Cersei and Craster's Keep: I hope that would make the showrunners think twice about doing this to two of their female leads. Sansa is my favorite, but if the filler that keeps her busy in S5 is sexual assault I might end up regretting that she didn't get sidelined like Bran. Even if it is the "controversial" TWOW chapter, I'm tired of fantasy/medieval fiction that features endless scenes of women being raped in the name of gritty faux-realism while keeping men safe because it would be icky to acknowledge that male rape happens.

 

Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje:

 

The producers had seen some of the work I’ve done before and invited me to be a part of it. It was that simple,” Akinnuoye-Agbaje told Vulture at the premiere of his latest film Annie on Sunday. “There wasn’t an audition process. It was just, Would you like to do this? And Yes! Thank you very much!“

 

“The character that I play, it’s actually advantageous to me not to actually know too much. That’s all I’m going to say,”

 

Does his role require him to act mysterious? I can't really guess what he might be talking about.

[Kadlin Mormont]

With no limitations, an expansion to 13 episodes per season for 8 or 9 seasons would probably be as far as the series can go before the shark tank gets wheeled in. 

 

So the new guy is going to play "Malko"  A Summer Islander?  Someone from Dorne?  Areo Hotah was already cast.

[Advance35]

Re: Sophie Turner.  Meh she does have a tendency to hype and go with her own head cannon which is ok by me, I actually really like her S3 stuff.

 

As for potential storylines for the upcoming season, I expect D&D to hit the high or salient points of Sansa's storyline.    GRRM hasn't shied away from some very unpleasant things during the course of his novels and if something happens to Sansa in the book it SHOULD be in the show.   I know some have gotten squeamish over the course of the last season and I can understand why but I didn't start watching this show expecting "My Little Pony".   

 

Someone with a sneak peek surgeon generaled a "controversial" upcoming chapter for Sansa and if this is it than this is it.   Nothing good happens when show runners or authors start being swayed by fans or critics IMO.

 

Even more intrigued by what's ahead for Sansa now.

[Winnief]

Personally, I wonder if instead of a rape scene, we might be getting a scene where Sansa kills somebody.

 

To me, that bit where Tyrion said, "Sansa's not a murderer-not yet," was clearly foreshadowing and it would certainly fit the "Dark Sansa" theme they're going for. 

 

In any event they are clearly moving forward into TWOW territory on her storyline.

[Hecate7]

She's going to kill someone, and it's not going to be who we want her to kill. "Father and I have larger concerns," after all.

[ElizaD]

As for potential storylines for the upcoming season, I expect D&D to hit the high or salient points of Sansa's storyline.    GRRM hasn't shied away from some very unpleasant things during the course of his novels and if something happens to Sansa in the book it SHOULD be in the show.   I know some have gotten squeamish over the course of the last season and I can understand why but I didn't start watching this show expecting "My Little Pony".

 

I don't expect My Little Pony, I watched all of Spartacus and a show would probably have to be about human trafficking to feature abuse more regularly than Spartacus did. But it made that abuse a significant part of the plot by constantly connecting it to the inequality of the society/need for rebellion, had both male and female characters subjected to various degrees of sexual abuse rather than only the women, showed that there's not just one type of victim/perpetrator, and dealt with the emotional consequences. Despite the HBO prestige, GOT has a juvenile approach to sex: it loves naked women but avoids the dick and doesn't realize when it's stumbled into something complex (the Jaime/Cersei mess with violent Jaime and Cersei saying no then Cersei turning away puppy-eyes Jaime then Jaime breaking his oaths with a Cersei who's totally into him again). I have no faith in this show's ability to deal with rape as anything other than yet another shock twist that's swiftly forgotten, and so I hope that the speculation about Sansa's traumatic scene being something plot/death-related turns out to to be correct.

 

To be more positive, as horrible as GOT is when it comes to sex it doesn't intend to slow the plot to a halt the way the books have done: I'm pleased that it's December and there's still no sign of Aegon existing on TV but Dany and Tyrion have been photographed sharing a scene.

[WearyTraveler]

Could they merge Tristan and Aegon?  Maybe the TV Martells passed Aegon as their own (or will say that Tristan is Aegon even if he's not).

Edited December 9, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Winnief]

Well ElizaD  I'm hoping that maybe just MAYBE the writers learned a lesson from the whole Cersei/Jaime thing and still I have my fingers crossed that Sansa's traumatic scene is something plot related as well.

 

And yeah, I too take comfort in them writing out Aegon-it was just a waste of time of a storyline that stole Dany's thunder and Jon's too when you think about it.  Plus whatever else is happening with that bit for Sansa, it's clear this was the 'controversial scene" that was intended to take place in TWOW, so they're definitely moving along there quickly.  In fact my suspicion/hope is that the reason they...accelerated Sansa's storyline is that they KNEW Martin had such important plans for her in the future they felt they *had* to get that ball rolling. 

 

 

Also I'm thinking that Dany/Tyrion means that instead of Dany flying off to the Dothraki sea like in the books Tyrion's going to convince her it's time to head West already and she'll start off for Westeros by Season Six.  Of course it's possible she may have to make a couple stops along the way like for example Braavos, but at least we'll get some forward movement there finally. 

[loki567]

 

Could they merge Tristan and Aegon?  Maybe the TV Martells passed Aegon as their own (or will say that Tristan is Aegon even if he's not).

 

I read a theory like that over at Reddit and it does seem plausible to me. You can get an Aegon with Martell support without having to go through Jon C. or the Golden Company. And since there's no Quentyn, they need another Aha! moment to make Doran look like a badass. Some of the filming reports seem to slightly support this. Jaime supposedly is staying the entire season at Dorne so he'll need to do something beyond the kidnapping plot. And another report had a "secret" character filming with the Martells late in the season, my best guest would be Varys. 

 

The drawback to this would be that completely eliminates Varys likely Blackfyre-background, makes him into a full-on Targaryen supporter, and most of his moral complexity goes out the window. But unfortunately that's the show. They do strip away a lot of the complexity of the characters.

 

ETA: Actually here it is http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2jy924/spoilers_all_prediction_trystane_in_season_5_is/.

Edited December 10, 2014 by loki567

[ElizaD]

Could they merge Tristan and Aegon?  Maybe the TV Martells passed Aegon as their own (or will say that Tristan is Aegon even if he's not).

 

I think a plot merge could be easier than a character merge, meaning that Show Trystane isn't revealed as Rhaegar's son but could take Aegon's plot function as the Martell-supported candidate for the throne and fight the Lannisters/Tyrells before Dany arrives. But that might also depend on how sincere they want to make the Myrcella/Trystane romance. If Trystane really loves her, the Sand Snakes might be solely responsible for the Martell army/KL schemes and the fight is about revenge rather than the throne, or "King Trystane" is a plan he doesn't know about and hasn't agreed to participate in.

 

It could get messy and Varys will be affected, but since they only want 7 seasons some messiness and sacrifice of characters/character motivation is inevitable. Aegon seems like the easiest major plot to cut because the Martells are already part of it as his allies and would just need to be given full responsibility and slightly different motivations on the show.

 

And yeah, I too take comfort in them writing out Aegon-it was just a waste of time of a storyline that stole Dany's thunder and Jon's too when you think about it.  Plus whatever else is happening with that bit for Sansa, it's clear this was the 'controversial scene" that was intended to take place in TWOW, so they're definitely moving along there quickly.  In fact my suspicion/hope is that the reason they...accelerated Sansa's storyline is that they KNEW Martin had such important plans for her in the future they felt they *had* to get that ball rolling. 

 

 

Also I'm thinking that Dany/Tyrion means that instead of Dany flying off to the Dothraki sea like in the books Tyrion's going to convince her it's time to head West already and she'll start off for Westeros by Season Six.  Of course it's possible she may have to make a couple stops along the way like for example Braavos, but at least we'll get some forward movement there finally. 

 

So many references to the controversial TWOW chapter are secondhand and potentially garbled accounts, but it's often mentioned in discussions that it's supposed to be controversial to some. A rape would be widely controversial, surely, so I guess that's promising in a way. I'm going to hope it's her "kill the girl" moment that's about growing up and making a difficult decision from a position of authority.

 

If Dany leaves Meereen, I think it'll be a one-episode thing that focuses on her learning to control Drogon, something that can be handled with body language. Internal development is pretty hard to do on TV without dialogue: they brought Drogo back for the S2 vision so Dany had someone to react to. If the Dothraki are necessary they'll come to Meereen and she'll gain their support there; I too believe that they'd rather have her with Tyrion and actively planning/starting the journey to Westeros, even though I can't predict whether she'll arrive in mid- or late-S6.

[Holmbo]

I would love it if they brought back Harry Lloyd for Dany to talk to him in the dothraki sea as she does in the book. That would be a good way to show some of her internal thoughts. Though it depends where her character is going to end up if they need that or not. A lot of people seem to speculate that dany's overall story will be her becoming a villain. I don't necessary agree with this as I think she is already would be the antagonist to many characters if they where to meet.

Mostly I just hope that not all characters end up as horrible people in the end. It might be realistic considering what they're going though but it would be depressing and kinda repetitive.

[benteen]

Well ElizaD  I'm hoping that maybe just MAYBE the writers learned a lesson from the whole Cersei/Jaime thing and still I have my fingers crossed that Sansa's traumatic scene is something plot related as well.

 

And yeah, I too take comfort in them writing out Aegon-it was just a waste of time of a storyline that stole Dany's thunder and Jon's too when you think about it.  Plus whatever else is happening with that bit for Sansa, it's clear this was the 'controversial scene" that was intended to take place in TWOW, so they're definitely moving along there quickly.  In fact my suspicion/hope is that the reason they...accelerated Sansa's storyline is that they KNEW Martin had such important plans for her in the future they felt they *had* to get that ball rolling. 

 

 

Also I'm thinking that Dany/Tyrion means that instead of Dany flying off to the Dothraki sea like in the books Tyrion's going to convince her it's time to head West already and she'll start off for Westeros by Season Six.  Of course it's possible she may have to make a couple stops along the way like for example Braavos, but at least we'll get some forward movement there finally. 

 

Sadly I don't think D and D have learned anything from Cersei and Jaime and are more likely to double-down.

 

I would be very happy with your idea for Dany/Tyrion.  I think D and D at least have the sense to cut through a lot of that crap and get to the point sooner.

[SeanC]

She's going to kill someone, and it's not going to be who we want her to kill. "Father and I have larger concerns," after all.

I'm quite dubious of that.  It simply doesn't make sense for that to be happening at that time, quite apart from whether it makes sense on a character level.

[WearyTraveler]

Could the controversial scene be that Sansa willingly sleeps with Littlefinger?

[SeanC]

Unlikely, given that that wouldn't be "super traumatic" for the characters, and that's not the way her character is developing anyway.  GRRM spends a ton of time show her psychological state in AFFC, and she consistently rejects his sexual advances; indeed, that's the main problem for his whole "Alayne" project.

[Hecate7]

I'm quite dubious of that.  It simply doesn't make sense for that to be happening at that time, quite apart from whether it makes sense on a character level.

It makes perfect sense for her to kill Sweetrobin. In fact, I don't see what else she CAN do at this point. She's not ready to kill Littlefinger--she needs his money and protection. She needs his approval. You know the "Harry the Heir" thing isn't going to work out.

 

Sansa has already covered up two Littlefinger murders--Marillon and Lysa. There's no problem whatsoever about eventually finally committing one for him or with him. I suspect that it's going to turn out that "Harry the Heir" was in the castle all along, disguised as Marillon, and marrying him is no longer an option.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

I definitely don't think that Marilion was actually Harry the Heir. For one thing the real Harry's absence should have been noticed. Another thing is why wouldn't he sing about the truth once he realized LF was going to fuck him over? I suppose Harry might have some musical training but I wonder how likely that would be? Rhaegar seems to have been an exception when it comes to having a highborn man being all into music, singing, playing an instrument, etc. Again, not saying it's impossible just that it seems highly unlikely.

I agree with you though that Sansa is likely going to commit murder in future.

I also don't think it's impossible for Sansa to "willingly" have sex with LF if she thinks it's in her best interest. The show is what makes me think/hope that she'll eventually have the upper hand in their relationship if it does become sexual and will be able to manipulate him. My hope is that it gets to the point where LF thinks he's playing her and that he's the one in control but it will really be the other way around.

[SeanC]

It makes perfect sense for her to kill Sweetrobin. In fact, I don't see what else she CAN do at this point. She's not ready to kill Littlefinger--she needs his money and protection. She needs his approval. You know the "Harry the Heir" thing isn't going to work out.

 

Sansa has already covered up two Littlefinger murders--Marillon and Lysa. There's no problem whatsoever about eventually finally committing one for him or with him.

No, it doesn't make "perfect sense" -- again, quite apart from on a character level, it's nowhere near time for Robert to die.  All kinds of things have to be lined up for that to happen.  And there's a huge difference between covering up the deaths of two people who conspired to murder you and killing a little kid.

 

I suspect that it's going to turn out that "Harry the Heir" was in the castle all along, disguised as Marillon, and marrying him is no longer an option.

I assume this is meant to be a joke, because otherwise, um, what?  Harry the Heir just won a tourney at Runestone.  Moreover, do you not think Lady Waynwood, his guardian, would have noticed if he'd dropped off the face of the earth for months?

Edited December 12, 2014 by SeanC

[Skeeter22]

I'm not saying it won't happen, but it doesn't make sense for Littlefinger or Sansa to want Sweetrobin dead now. All of their power and security derives from Sweetrobin. Killing him after they secure Harry makes sense, but certainly not while their position is so precarious. Seeing as Harry doesn't seem to be appearing this season, I'm not sure how this scenario would play out.

If the traumatic scene is rape, I might be done with the books and the show. I'm tired of writers falling back on rape as a source of cheap drama and to make their work seem "gritty". GRRM is more nuanced than the show writers, but I think he's already made some missteps in the way he's used sexual violence in the novels.