S11.E09: O Brother Where Art Thou?

[Hana Chan]

I wasn't overly worked up over not seeing Michael/Adam - it was pretty clear that this was the rarely used "visitor's section" of the cage. And honestly, I'm not all that worried about Michael unless we're in for Michael and Lucifer joining forces (with their appropriate vessels) to take on the Dimness.

 

Yes, I'm calling Amara the Dimness because she's just not interesting enough to qualify as the ultimate dark force of the universe. Her motivations seems so trite and banal. Every other big bad we've seen on this show had grand motivations and large endgame goals, even if those goals were about just eating everything in sight. I think the show failed to make her in any way compelling for all her apparent power (which is fairly unimpressive compared to Lucifer and Azazel). And I just can't find anything compelling about her bond with Dean, because she's given no reason beyond him having worn the MOC when she was released. And no clear indication of just what she wants with him. Or why she might need him. Or why Dean's will takes a vacation when she's around. 

 

The most interesting thing in this episode was Sam and Luci and I'm not totally convinced that Luci is totally behind Sam's visions. Because if that's the case, it's the cherry on a shit sundae of abuse the show's laid on Sam's lifelong faith. It's been a testament to Sam's faith that he still wants to believe even after all he's been through. And having the courage to face Lucifer again after everything he'd been put through (and thanks for the rapey hints again) can't be understated. Maybe not the smartest thing, given that even if they secured Lucifer's help with the Dimness, what happens then? He wouldn't happily go back to his cage after all is done. And ending with Sam back in Lucifer's clutches... oy...

 

I'm a lot less interested in the Dimness at this point than I am about what is going to happen between the old roommates. And Sam... if you really have a choice, pick the top bunk.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hana Chan

[Diane]

Also where was the music cue Jensen was talking about?

 

 

I missed it too, has anyone figured it out?

[SueB]

I really do think Amara was trying to suck out his soul; she assumed the position and all. I think that not being able to really intrigued her.

So, given that premise, some thoughts:

1. Dean is newly soulless as a result of the MoC being removed. We know soulless people react differently. It would explain why Dean has seemed "off" to more people than just catrox.

2. (From the Supernatural subreddit) Dean has actually been soulless for a long time--remember what Famine said to him about being "dead inside"?

3. Amara can't hurt him be use they're bound by the MoC. She was thinking that it mostly protected her from Dean, butthe bond means that she really, really can't hurt him. Because mystical hand-waving.

4. God--the real thing--is protecting him.

Another thought: Lordy, angels are just dumb sometimes. Well-intentioned, self-righteous idiots.

 

I kinda think it's #4.  I'm beginning to toy around with the idea that DEAN is God's weapon against the Darkness.  I don't know if it's going to work out well for Dean, BTW.  I too believe she was going for soul-suckage but instead was captivated by Dean and kissed him.  I think she's convinced herself that it's "destiny" because they shared the Mark but that rings a little hollow.  Instead, I think that if we accept God is the creator of the Mark, then I think it's possible that the Mark is still somehow protecting Dean. Now that it doesn't have the nasty side effect of containing the Darkness, it's not harming Dean but it still is somehow "present".  As in... the lock was open but Dean is STILL THE LOCK.  Amara just doesn't know it. And there's the trickery of God coming back into play.  She is keeping the means to her ultimate incarceration close at hand.  

 

Conversely, it could go back to the "worthy" comment of Cain.  Lucifer was apparently "worthy" when he first got the Mark. Cain was apparently "worthy" when he got it.  I'm rejecting the notion that "worthy" means "killer".  Lucifer was instrumental in defeating Amara. Cain was willing to go to Hell for his brother. 

 

Finally, what if God is using the confusing attraction (confusing to BOTH Dean and Amara IMO) to express HIS care for his sister. Not in an incesty way. But in an actual sincere "family matters" way.  I found it really interesting how when Amara was taking on the Angels, Dean seemed CONCERNED for her safety.  Yes, he just tried to stab her but there was concern in his voice and words. And the look he and Amara exchanged as she waved him back to the park was intense.  If you missed it, watch again. He was WORRIED about her and she knew it.  

 

I'm telling 'ya.... I see God's hand in this weird relationship between Dean and Amara.  I think the sexual thing is a misdirect.  She doesn't really know why she can't destroy him (and doesn't want to) and he's freakin' clueless why he's concerned about her.  

 

I'm fascinated by it.  

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Who Needs A Crazy Ex-Girlfriend When Supernatural Has The Darkness?
Dean really knows how to pick 'em.

[Commando Cody]

We don't know that God didn't want Sam inside the cage - yet. Maybe he allowed Lucifer to project the images. I don't have that much faith in the writers of this show, but we'll see. He finally paid attention to Amara, so he must be aware of other things that are going on. 

[Triskan]

Just a detail I really enjoyed, caughting up on it again on rewatch : 

 

"- I consumed their souls. They arent gone. They're a part of me and in that way they live forever."

 

Okay, I admit that was predictable and an easy way to justify what we'd call by our standards an evil act.

 

But still, it's the first concrete clue we have as to how the Darkness sees the world and her views on how she could upgrade her brother's Creation.

[catrox14]

I missed it too, has anyone figured it out?

 

I'm guessing it was cut?

 

 

I found it really interesting how when Amara was taking on the Angels, Dean seemed CONCERNED for her safety.  Yes, he just tried to stab her but there was concern in his voice and words. And the look he and Amara exchanged as she waved him back to the park was intense.  If you missed it, watch again. He was WORRIED about her and she knew it.

 

I had a different read on his reaction. I don't really understand why he would have been worried for HER after he just tried to kill her unless the kiss pulled him further under her spell, but he seemed to be able to fight it to an extent.

 

I took Dean's reactions as him being afraid for humanity and the angels. My head!canon is that somewhere in Dean's heart and mind he was thinking about Cas and that Amara would be smiting him along with all the other angels. Basically, I think for the first time Dean is trying to help the angels because of Cas.

[KirkB]

Oh I definitely didn't read it as Dean being worried about Amara. I'm not even entirely sure it was Cas since...is he even IN Heaven right now? I kind of got the feeling Dean was more worried about what a battle between all of the angels and Amara could do to everyone else.

[FlickChick]

Just a detail I really enjoyed, caughting up on it again on rewatch : 

 

"- I consumed their souls. They arent gone. They're a part of me and in that way they live forever."

 

Okay, I admit that was predictable and an easy way to justify what we'd call by our standards an evil act.

 

But still, it's the first concrete clue we have as to how the Darkness sees the world and her views on how she could upgrade her brother's Creation.

If you think about the Christian concept of Heaven, people's souls go there after their bodies die, and "live" there forever with God. (or in SN's world, in little rooms) The soul does not die. So what The Darkness is saying is that what she does (in consuming souls) is the same thing with basically the same result - except that now the souls are in "the darkness" instead of Heaven. So I agree that she sees this as an "upgrade" to God's creation. Not sure I'd agree with her. ;)

[DittyDotDot]

Well, that was...yeah, no need to repeat the sentiment. I think my brain damage statement from earlier this season still holds water for both the Winchesters. Football helmets boys...you need to get yourself some football helmets and fast! I'm not sure how many more brain cells you can afford to lose.

 

Seriously, though, I was laughing so very, very, very hard when the music kicked up in Hell and the fire and...yeah, if that's not the definition of overkill, I don't know what is? And Crowley uttering "And, so it begins"...really? REALLY? Okie dokie.

I guess I should just be comforted that Cass didn't bite it in this episode and stop trying worrying about where the Hell (heh, or not) he was. 

 

Just out of curiousity, what happened to the rings that Sam used to open a gate into the cage in Swan Song?

 
Dean picked up the rings in Swan Song after Sam jumped into the hole. He then retrieved Death's from Bobby's house in Appointment in Sumarra and returned it to Death. I would guess that Death's ring would've been in that pile of ashes after Dean scythed (yeah, I'm making it a verb, sue me) Death. So, technically they should have Death's ring again. And I'm guessing the other rings are wherever they stashed them after Swan Song. But, the point wasn't to actually open the cage, only to manifest Lucifer so Sam could talk with him. They were very clear with Rowena that she wasn't to actually open the cage. Still, pretty stupid considering who it was and all. 
 
 

OK so it took Lilith centuries of planning, thousands of demons, 66 broken seals, the breaking of the Righteous Man in Hell, and her own death to get Lucifer out of the cage the first time. But it takes Rowena a few hours with the right books to come up with a spell that can do it quite easily. Oooookaaaaaay, way to fuck with canon, show.

Exactly why I was concerned about this return to Lucifer and the cage. Leave that shit alone show! 

[Hana Chan]

Part of the problem with the Dean/Amara dynamic is that we're getting absolutely no read on just where Dean stands with this. It's bad enough that we're getting no real logic behind Amara's fixation on Dean, but the show has had plenty of opportunity for Dean to talk to someone (Sam, Castiel, even Crowley) over what's going on whenever he's around Amara. To give us some window into why he's so totally powerless against her (this episode being the first time he's actively tried to attack her, but did so in a way that was so futile as being pointless). Hell, Dean could have talked to himself or prayed (since we have seen him pray when he was really desperate) to give us something to hang our hats on. Instead we get a lot of screen time devoted to their interactions, and nothing much to show for it in the end.

[bethy]

Finally got a chance to watch and oh, my word. SO. MUCH. TALKING. Sam talks, Lucifer talks, Dean talks, the Darkness talks. Everybody talks and talks and talks.

 

On a different note, it seemed like Sam wasn't aware of Amara letting Dean go a couple of episodes agao? He gave Dean his, "What are you hiding from me now?" look, but no one ever followed up on it. I would so much rather have heard that conversation than have listened to Lucifer smirk and Sam tell us everything we already know.    

[millennium]

I got the impression that she was going to suck out his soul, but was just as "blissful" or whatever in his presence that she couldn't.  She was compelled to kiss him instead of kill him.  *eye roll*  Not that he didn't have a soul to take.

 

 

My guess is, she saw Jensen Ackles lip-syncing "Eye of the Tiger" just before that scene and couldn't go through with it.

[TexasGal]

Rowena's fan girl giggle at Lucifer's name was everything! I think if someone told me I was about to be 20 feet from Jensen Ackles I'd react exactly the same way.

To add to the how are they this dumb list - they were worried about unlocking the cage and only God knew how. But thought that God was sending Sam there. Wouldn't they just assume that if God was really sending them there he'd also unlock the cage for them?

[SueB]

If you think about the Christian concept of Heaven, people's souls go there after their bodies die, and "live" there forever with God. (or in SN's world, in little rooms) The soul does not die. So what The Darkness is saying is that what she does (in consuming souls) is the same thing with basically the same result - except that now the souls are in "the darkness" instead of Heaven. So I agree that she sees this as an "upgrade" to God's creation. Not sure I'd agree with her. ;)

So... I'm guessing it's really DARK inside her tummy?  

 

In all seriousness, I don't equate the word 'consume' with 'still existing'.  She's converted their souls to her power base.  Put differently, I don't think it's like a shritga, I don't think the recently consumed are going to come flying out of her mouth if she gets killed.

 

Then again, I also don't think she CAN be killed.  I think that ends the universe (cause you probably need Dark and Light).

[neverforgottenadam]

I thought last night's episode was good. I felt bad for Sam when Lucifer told him, he was the one who gave him those visions. 

I had a good laugh though at Crowley in the trailer, when he got a Sam, Funko. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by neverforgottenadam

[millennium]

We don't know that God didn't want Sam inside the cage - yet. Maybe he allowed Lucifer to project the images. I don't have that much faith in the writers of this show, but we'll see. He finally paid attention to Amara, so he must be aware of other things that are going on. 

 

Yes.   If you believe that nothing happens without God's oversight, then indeed God was calling the shots, regardless of what Lucifer may think or want Sam to think.

[catrox14]

So I have a wild ass spec about why Amara didn't seem to be able to suck out Dean's soul.  And this is WAY out of left field and I have ZERO evidence for this and I don't even know why I thought about this other than upon re-watch some of Dean's dialogue in that scene was ....odd.

 

What if Cas and Dean made a deal and he was either possessing Dean or took on some of Cas' grace to protect him.  Maybe that's why Dean was so worried about the angels.  Like I said just a random thought. 

I thought last night's episode was good. I felt bad for Sam when Lucifer told him, he was the one who gave him those visions. 

I had a good laugh though at Crowley in the trailer, when he got a Sam, Funko. 

 

 

I call shenanigans on that! Crowley would have been happy to get a Dean Funko, dammit! He hates Sam...

 

RETCON!!! :):)

[AwesomO4000]

I call shenanigans on that! Crowley would have been happy to get a Dean Funko, dammit! He hates Sam...

 

RETCON!!! :):)

 

Well, Sam hates Crowley, but Crowley thinks Sam is his Marnie. ; ) (Which I don't watch Girls, but I'm guessing that that's significant.)

[SueB]

* gets out charts, graphs, diorama, and note cards* (in other words, feel free to TL:DR)
 
I've rewatched enough to qualify as obsessed today.  Here's summary thoughts
 
Plot - Holy shit, that was a BL script? It was actually very good. Significant points off for lack of Cas but I suspect that's a Carver decision.  I really liked the parallel Winchester vs BigBad stories. Sam in literal Hell, Dean on a brightly light Mountain plain.  Sure, everyone but Sam & Dean saw Lucifer's "reveal" coming but it was well done.  Overcrowded, as usual, with some obvious plotholes but I was legitimately glued to the screen on  this one. I didn't care for the rapey vibe but I'm also putting that on Carver overall arcs vice usual BL fetishes.
 
Dialog - A+. With the exception of one "bitch" it was generally not offensive. And there were so MANY gems. "He has relatives?!"
 
Character -
Sam: OUCH. But yay for Sam saying "No." And I like how he consistently refuses to cut Crowley or Rowena ANY slack. 
Dean: Also yay for actively resisting Amara more than he had. He actually stabbed her. From a development perspective, I like how he backed Sam's play to at least explore the Cage option. I felt the brothers really were on the same team this episode. Upset but working together.
Crowley: A little jealous over Dean/Amara, miffed that Sam has no gratitude, ACTUALLY helpful ... don't change Crowley, I like you.
Rowena: Excellent choice for her to fangirl over Lucifer, loved that she still enjoys a good gossip session with Crowley.
Amara: I like how she was a bit all over the map: pissed, confused, delighted, arrogant, and hurt (that God won't answer). She's still very much a mystery, even with the reveals. I think that's best for the Big Bad.
Lucifer: Prince of Lies indeed. Such a master manipulator but genuinely delighted to see Sam.  That's not good for Sam.
 
Acting: A+ all around for me. Standout notes:
Jared: That CRUSHED look on his face. So very well done.
Jensen: I love how he shows fear while trying not to.
Ruth: The fangirling was fun.
Mark P: He's just so good in this role. I like how he remembered he bites his nails (seriously, I love attention to detail).
 
Sets: Woot! Limbo was so much more effective than whatever that was in Taxi Driver. I also liked the explainer that there are many different sections of hell.  It looked like Helm's Deep.  And could they have found a more beautiful backdrop for the Dean/Amara confrontation? Symbolic, gorgeous. 
 
Directing: Thank you Bob Singer-

 

In conclusion: excellent plot, good character work, witty dialog, and gorgeous looking directing/scenery. I'm a happy camper

Edited December 11, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I've watched that Dean/Amara scene a couple of times (/hork)

 

I was bothered by the dialogue of Dean telling Amara that some people find comfort in religion and God. I mean this is Dean 'Fuck Destiny Right in the Face, Don't Count on God, Count on Us'  Winchester saying it's God's rules? NOPE NOPE NOPE. Makes absolutely no sense for Dean's characterization. He might not have a beef with God anymore personally but considering he was just telling Sam to not trust God why is he telling Amara that it's God rules.....

 

And I really don't want Dean to be channeling God here either and him not know it. That's gonna really piss me off. 

[Omegamom]

Um. Why wouldn't Dean say some people find comfort in God and religion etc.? He didn't say he finds comfort in it--if he had, then I'd be right with you. But, good heavens, his own brother finds comfort that way. It would be stupid not to acknowledge it. And that's Dean's great belief in free will: God/religion/etc. isn't his shtick, but he's not going to make choices for other people, and he's not going to ignore the fact that other people choose to believe and rely on that belief.

[AwesomO4000]

And from Dean's tone, to me, it didn't sound like he thought that God would actually provide that comfort, but if people wanted to get comfort that way, well that was their (misguided) choice. I'll need to watch again, but I caught a bit of sarcasm and/or "well, it's their funeral" kind of tone to Dean's voice when Dean was talking about that. (But I'm from the New England area originally, so I hear that kind of thing when it may or may not be there. I must admit I'm also out of practice. I would so be missing a vital skill if I ever moved back there. ; ).

 

I gotta admit, though, that if Dean was channeling God without him knowing it, I wouldn't necessarily be angry at the show, but I would feel indignant for Dean a little, because I think that would annoy Dean a bit.

[Omegamom]

I think it would annoy Dean a lot, speaking of free will. And i don't think a God that ostensibly stands for free will would do that.

But, hey, the show has retconned things before...

[catrox14]

Um. Why wouldn't Dean say some people find comfort in God and religion etc.? He didn't say he finds comfort in it--if he had, then I'd be right with you. But, good heavens, his own brother finds comfort that way. It would be stupid not to acknowledge it. And that's Dean's great belief in free will: God/religion/etc. isn't his shtick, but he's not going to make choices for other people, and he's not going to ignore the fact that other people choose to believe and rely on that belief.

 

 

Let me try again.  I'm not trying to convince you of my position but just to clarify because I don't think I was clear about what I was trying to say. 

 

Dean believes there is a God but Dean doesn't believe God believes in humanity as we heard him say in s10. Even here, he was repeating what the priest told him in s10 "Some people find comfort in it". 

 

Dean prayed to Cas because Cas was tangible and real and did help them when God didn't so I don't think Dean has a high opinion of God especially after s5 and s6. But this season Dean specifically didn't want Sam praying to God because Dean doesn't trust God to be there for him or Sam or anyone. 

 

Given all that I don't find it believable that he's on board the It's "God's rules and God's world".  Now, I COULD see him saying that as a tactic to get her to leave humanity alone. I guess I just don't get why Dean has to even explain this to Amara....God's sister but that's a whole other conversation.

[catrox14]

 

And from Dean's tone, to me, it didn't sound like he thought that God would actually provide that comfort, but if people wanted to get comfort that way, well that was their (misguided) choice. I'll need to watch again, but I caught a bit of sarcasm and/or "wel

 

 

I'll watch that again, but I can buy that interpretation. I would find that in keeping with Dean's snark factor.

[mertensia]

I've watched that Dean/Amara scene a couple of times (/hork)

I was bothered by the dialogue of Dean telling Amara that some people find comfort in religion and god.

I think it is perfectly believeable for Dean to describe something that he does not believe in. He's not religious but billions of people are. I'm not sure why Dean describing religion to Amara bothers you unless you think 100% of Dean's dialogue should be about Dean and his beliefs?

I liked the episode though why no one- least of all suspicious Crowley- thought to question who sent Sam's visions is beyond me unless Lucifer or Amara clouded everyone's mind.

For that matter why does Lucifer want to be loose right now? Amara undoubtably wants him obliterated.

And now that Amara's explained about keeping the souls with her always I'm torn between singing "Timothy" and "Yummy Yummy Yummy I've Got Souls in My Tummy".

It looked like Amara tried to take Dean's soul as well; I wonder why she failed.

That outdoor state park or whereever was gorgeous.

[catrox14]

 

He's not religious but billions of people are. I'm not sure why Dean describing religion to Amara bothers you unless you think 100% of Dean's dialogue should be about Dean and his beliefs?

 

I clarified my comments further....just up the page a bit. I'm guessing you didn't see that.

 

Of course, now that you bring it up, I wouldn't mind hearing more about what Dean believes out of his own mouth at this point of his life, but that's not really at all what I was driving at with my comment.

[mertensia]

An explanation isn't an endorsement of a belief.

[catrox14]

An explanation isn't an endorsement of a belief.

 

I never said it was.  Which part of my comment are inferring that from?

Edited December 11, 2015 by catrox14

[mertensia]

Probably the "I was bothered by dialog of Dean telling Amara that some people find comfort in religion and God" bit.

Your further explanation clears up what you're really angry about not at all. Dean isn't religious. Still doesn't mean he can't be explaining to Amara that many people are because she doesn't get faith. He doesn't either but that doesn't mean he can't explain it to her.

[Demented Daisy]

Given all that I don't find it believable that he's on board the It's "God's rules and God's world".  

 

What makes you think he's on board with that idea?

 

 

An explanation isn't an endorsement of a belief.

 

 

Agreed.  

 

I'm of the opinion that, given the alternatives, Dean will always choose what he knows.  He doesn't like the unknown, he doesn't like what he can't see and feel and know for himself.  He knows the world that God has created; he has no idea what kind of world Amara would create.  And he's managed fairly well in God's world.  Doesn't mean he likes it, but he'll take it.

 

Just like back in S5.  He wanted more of the same, and he got it.  I don't think he's changed his opinion in that regard.  So, yeah, he'll back God in this situation over Amara.  Right now it's a two-party system.  If he could find a viable alternative, he might take it.  Until then, though....

[SueB]

Given all that I don't find it believable that he's on board the It's "God's rules and God's world".  Now, I COULD see him saying that as a tactic to get her to leave humanity alone. I guess I just don't get why Dean has to even explain this to Amara....God's sister but that's a whole other conversation.

 

Interesting conversation.  I think Dean was Team Humanity vice Team God in the whole conversation. The "God's rules and God's world." was, IMO, saying that people are following the laws of nature as God set them up.  So...we're all wired for 120 volts and Amara is pitching a 240 volts world.  (it's a weird analogy... I know...) But Dean acknowledging that humanity has grown up preferring light to dark. It's instinctual for us.  We want to know what's going on. It's how he made us. Dean accepts that God exists and he made us (which is a premise in the SPN universe that he's had factual proof of so he's had to accept it). He just thinks God's a dick.  

 

Something important in those scenes is that they were IMO clearly edited.    Stringing the first two mountain scenes together:

Dean: "So this is you now" 

Amara: "At least for today"

<scene break back to Hell>

Amara: "You misunderstand my purpose."

How did they get from him talking about her being grown up to her explaining her purpose??  I think we can probably live without the data but perhaps some of the discomfort in the scenes likely stems from the tight editing.  In general, the Lucifer scenes were much longer than the Amara scenes.  

 

Addressing the quoted comment in bold:

I think this is relevant to why Dean said what he did.  Dean's comfortable in the role of explaining humanity to non-humans and I think the scene is based on the premise that this is what he's doing.  So... WHY does he have to?  My answer is that I don't think Amara understands God. Like, at all.  I think they are the oil and water of deities.  She is delighted to explain how the souls are eternal because she ate them and doesn't get that Dean's skin is probably crawling at that moment with her casual disregard for individual human's inherent worth.  At least in Memorex heaven, they are still individuals. In her "eternity" they are consolidated as part of her (I swear she's using Borg language... I half expected 'resistance is futile').

But I think part of the issue is the ambiguity of the earlier scenes and her motivation for taking Dean to the mountain pasture.  Some have interpreted the scenes in the park and the church as Amara just toying with the humans before slaughtering them.  That she knew the answers to the questions she was asking and was just pushing the "chosen's" noses in their foolishness (as she saw it).  Personally, I'm not so sure.  I think she was sort of surveying the two groups to see what they believed, mocking them for it and then smiting.  She doesn't believe anything they believe - she thinks it's all lies and manipulation by God. Instead, I think she was trying to understand both what and why THEY believe it.  And I think she came away disturbed by how entrenched people were in their beliefs,particularly that Light was good and Dark was evil.  

 

What's interesting is how she has chosen Dean to be the human she confides in.  Her whole tone changes when she is talking with others. But with Dean, it's like she's trying to persuade him to her side.  So, ya gotta ask yourself - why bother?  The whole transporting to a mountain pasture is fascinating. It's real old-testament stuff (God always did his big moves on a mountain ... it's where he send Abraham, it's where he talked to Moses (burning bush first, Ten Commandments later), Jesus and the Transfiguration moment, the dying on the cross thing... all mountains/high hills).    They've definitely set up Dean as Amara's "Chosen One".  And she talks pretty openly with him. Actually explaining herself to him as if his opinion mattered.  Which made her unwillingness to share more of her big purpose noteworthy.  He's not her equal in her mind. He's potentially her instrument. Maybe an ally.  

 

Bottom line (for the TL:DR crowd): Dean was representing humanity in that conversation IMO. He's just acknowledged Humanity is playing by the rules of their Creator (independent of whether or not their Creator is still looking out for them). Amara seems to have chosen Dean as someone to confide in but it has limitations. Finally, Amara just doesn't not "get" God. "Free Will" is not in her nature.  

Edited December 11, 2015 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

Finally, Amara just doesn't not "get" God. "Free Will" is not in her nature.  

 

So very true.  Dean will always choose free will over destiny.  Amara said that she was Dean's destiny (or something like that).  I said, "You don't know Dean at all if you think that argument will work on him."

 

So, yeah, Dean will choose God/humanity over Amara.  As long as he still has free will.

[DittyDotDot]

Bottom line (for the TL:DR crowd): Dean was representing humanity in that conversation IMO. He's just acknowledged Humanity is playing by the rules of their Creator (independent of whether or not their Creator is still looking out for them). Amara seems to have chosen Dean as someone to confide in but it has limitations. Finally, Amara just doesn't not "get" God. "Free Will" is not in her nature. 

 

I kinda felt like it was humans Amara didn't get, not God. I think she understood what God was about. What Amara is doing by taking people's souls is not really any different than what God does with them--uses them to power him and his universe--she's just more up front and honest about it, IMO. I thought Amara was saying that God's free will was an illusion and a lie and wondering why humans would go along with this obvious hoax.

 

It's very much in the same vein of how they tried to juxtapose Heaven and Hell back in S5. Heaven's a lie--a nice lie that's better than burning in Hell and all that, but still a lie none-the-less--and while Hell is horrible, it's honest. 

 

I just wonder if why Dean is so drawn to Amara is because she actually is free will, so to speak. 

[Demented Daisy]

I just wonder if why Dean is so drawn to Amara is because she actually is free will, so to speak. 

 

How so?

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, you did it now...you want the illogical to give you some logic? Hee! This is gonna be so much fun! ;)

 

God = order; Amara = chaos. 

Free will is nothing if not chaotic.

Ergo, Amara must be free will.

 

That is if you live inside this truly mess of a head like mine. ;)

[mertensia]

It's a valid interpretation.

[Demented Daisy]

Hee!  Interesting.  I'd say it's the other way around, though.  Amara wants everyone under her control while God doesn't mind the chaos.  I'd say the world is pretty chaotic for the SPN universe and God certainly hasn't done anything to stop it.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

Perhaps, but God created an ordered universe with rules and order. It wasn't God who introduced chaos into his universe and he was pretty pissed about it at the time and tried to stop it by locking Lucifer away. God likes us to believe that it is he who allows chaos to exist, but I'd say God is trying to stop the chaos through the Winchesters.

 

In what way has Amara tried to put people under her control though? So far, she's just been wandering around looking at stuff while searching for God in order to get her revenge. I see little evidence that she actually wants to control anything. I think it's God who is trying to control people, but he's doing it through subterfuge. IMO, by making them believe it's of their own choosing. Not to say that they aren't choosing, but given the choices, is it really a choice?

[SueB]

Wheeeee!  I'm having fun.  I agree, Amara is chaos. But Free Will only applies to Amara IMO.  Everyone else is a lesser being.  She has zip problem letting people run around and do what they wish without a soul... but I think that's "for now". 

 

Perhaps, but God created an ordered universe with rules and order. It wasn't God who introduced chaos into his universe and he was pretty pissed about it at the time and tried to stop it by locking Lucifer away. God likes us to believe that it is he who allows chaos to exist, but I'd say God is trying to stop the chaos through the Winchesters.

 

In what way has Amara tried to put people under her control though? So far, she's just been wandering around looking at stuff while searching for God in order to get her revenge. I see little evidence that she actually wants to control anything. I think it's God who is trying to control people, but he's doing it through subterfuge. IMO, by making them believe it's of their own choosing. Not to say that they aren't choosing, but given the choices, is it really a choice?

Ultimately, she's selling "Bliss". If Stabby MsStabberson (from Thin Lizzy?) is any indication, it's a pretty worshipful bliss.  And when Dean is in the "bliss", he's doing what she wants. He clearly was not down with the kissy-face ex post facto but he didn't fight it "in the moment".  She had him under her control.  He had even opened his mouth when it looked like she was going to suck out his soul.  In what universe does Dean willingly open his mouth to let a deity eat his soul?  The answer is: In Amara's universe.  So that's not really very Free Will.

 

But don't get me wrong, Amara is making a COMPELLING argument.  It's anti-religion, it's anti-rules, it's anti-God.  All three of these are soft targets for many people. And she's using arguments Dean might have bought if she hadn't left a trail of dead bodies.  I think BOTH God and Amara accept some collateral damage.  I think ultimately, Amara has made it clear humans are lessor.  If Lucifer and Uriel are to be believed, God has put humans ABOVE the Angels. He's made the entire purpose of the Angels to protect the humans.  I'm thinking Amara thinks humans/Angels/demons are all the same. God's creatures.  She's happy leaving them "bliss" but that kinda makes them mindless.  

[Demented Daisy]

In what way has Amara tried to put people under her control though? So far, she's just been wandering around looking at stuff while searching for God in order to get her revenge. I see little evidence that she actually wants to control anything. I think it's God who is trying to control people, but he's doing it through subterfuge. IMO, by making them believe it's of their own choosing. Not to say that they aren't choosing, but given the choices, is it really a choice?

 

 

I don't think Amara wants people under her control -- they're nothing to her, I expect -- but she wants the world/universe under her control, I think.  You know, God's been in charge long enough, it's her turn to create the perfect world, blah blah blah.

 

Since we don't know the nature of Hell in this universe, I can't say if God is trying to control humanity.  He's given them the choice to not believe in Him (which, IMO, is the ultimate choice as far as He's concerned), but we don't know what happens to them when they die.  You know, some religions believe that if you don't believe the way they do, you go to Hell.  I don't know if that's the case in this universe.  (So not trying to get into a religious discussion about our world, I promise.)  We haven't seen what happens to people who don't believe in God.  If He punishes them, then, yeah, definitely, He's all about control and all that.  But if they are allowed to go to Heaven (or at least not go to Hell), then He did, I think, truly give humanity free will.

 

In the end, though, I don't think it's a zero sum game.  I think Amara wants chaos, but in a universe of her design, which is a measure of control.  Likewise, I think God wants a "natural order" to the universe, but allows a certain measure of chaos.

 

Ay yi yi, this show.

 

(ETA  I should have said everything, not everyone in my earlier post.  I'd go back and edit to better reflect what I meant, but that's disingenuous, I think.  Sorry for the confusion.)

Edited December 11, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[Frost]

QUOTE: for the TL:DR crowd

Sorry, the quote function doesn't seem to be working What is the "TL:DR crowd"?

[Omegamom]

"Too long; didn't read". She's offering a summary for those who don't want to read the long post. ;-)

[Omegamom]

This discussion is fascinating. IMO, Amara's universe will be, as SueB said, a kind of Borg existence. Bliss bliss bliss all the time. So, since you're blissful, there's no choices to be made, ergo, no free will. The SPN God started things off, then watched where it went. He didn't stop Adam and Eve, after all--he said, here's this garden, enjoy, but if you do x, y, z, you're outta here. Your choice. Amara would bliss them out so they had no desire to leave.

I think Amara just doesn't get the dichotomy of life. It's messy. It's painful. But there is joy, and love, and even bliss. She wants the one without the other.

[Demented Daisy]

SUE!  She wants to Imperius everyone!  All the talk of bliss was reminding me of something, but I couldn't remember what.  The feeling Amara describes is exactly what happens when you're Imperiused!  It also explains why I associate Amara with control instead of chaos.

 

Imperius Curse from the Harry Potter wiki.  Sorry to everyone who isn't a Potterphile.

[DittyDotDot]

But don't get me wrong, Amara is making a COMPELLING argument.  It's anti-religion, it's anti-rules, it's anti-God.  All three of these are soft targets for many people. And she's using arguments Dean might have bought if she hadn't left a trail of dead bodies.

 

And, that's exactly why God is working through the Winchesters, IMO; they stand outside of the order of things. Their entire lives have been lived on the outskirts of society and order. Maybe God is using chaos to fight chaos?

 

She's happy leaving them "bliss" but that kinda makes them mindless.  

 

But, is it really any different than what God is doing? "Worship/believe/give in to me and I'll make you feel better," meanwhile, I'll take your soul and use it's power to my own benefit. Personally, I think Amara and God both need to be taken out of the equation for humanity to inherit the earth. Or, that's what I'm thinking the show is going for anyway.

 

Since we don't know the nature of Hell in this universe, I can't say if God is trying to control humanity.  He's given them the choice to not believe in Him.

 

Totally not trying to have an actual religious discussion, only working on what the show has set up as their universe...did God give humanity choice to not believe in him or did the Darkness give that to humanity working through Lucifer? Before the serpent got into the garden, there was no conscious choices, only existence. 

 

In the end, though, I don't think it's a zero sum game.  I think Amara wants chaos, but in a universe of her design, which is a measure of control. Likewise, I think God wants a "natural order" to the universe, but allows a certain measure of chaos.

 

But does she want a universe of her design? Perhaps Amara is just as happy to exist in God's universe as long as God doesn't exist? We really don't know yet. However, I'm not sure that God allows for chaos as much as he can't stop it. Like I said, I think he wants humanity to believe he has the control, but in reality, I don't think he really does.

[Demented Daisy]

But does she want a universe of her design? Perhaps Amara is just as happy to exist in God's universe as long as God doesn't exist? We really don't know yet. However, I'm not sure that God allows for chaos as much as he can't stop it. Like I said, I think he wants humanity to believe he has the control, but in reality, I don't think he really does.

 

Huh.  I thought she said she wanted to remake existence.  Tear it all down and rebuild.  Of course, I can't remember which episode she said it or who she said it to.

 

Well, I know how I'm spending my afternoon now.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

The SPN God started things off, then watched where it went. He didn't stop Adam and Eve, after all--he said, here's this garden, enjoy, but if you do x, y, z, you're outta here. 

 

But did he give them a choice? God decreed they not to eat from the poison fruit, but he didn't tell them what the poisoned fruit was or what it would do. Instead, he put the tree in their way, but told them to pretend it wasn't there. That's not exactly a choice, IMO. 

Huh.  I thought she said she wanted to remake existence.  Tear it all down and rebuild.  Of course, I can't remember which episode she said it or who she said it to.

 

Well, I know how I'm spending my afternoon now.  ;-)

 

Oh, she could've said it and I forgot. It would be something in this show's wheelhouse, for sure. I just got the impression she was like Lucifer in S5, "Why would I destroy this beautiful thing...no, it's God I want to destroy."

Edited December 11, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Since (in SPN universe) God made the tree "God and his shiny red apples" (which turned out to be a quince, per Crowley)...then God actually offered up the choice and the means for evil to enter the world (Tree of Knowledge). Lucifer (which may or maynot have been Amara influenced.... he didn't seem suddenly repentent post release of the Mark) talked the woman into it, but she choose.