S11.E08: Just My Imagination

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

Yes, Bad Boys and About a Boy.

Thanks!  He looked different than he did in About a Boy.  Hair lighter maybe?  

[Dobian]

I really wanted to like this episode and I loved that they brought that actor back to play young Dean, he is great.  I usually don't quote lines, but Dean had some howlers:

“Let’s go talk to the mermaid’s boyfriend, because apparently imaginary friends have boyfriends now.”

“So Sparkle is a unicorn and also a man? So a manicorn.” (hearkens back to his "werepire" comment in a previous episode)

Sully telling Dean to "pull it up" when he started talking about family shower time.

Sully was very likable, the episode was charming, I liked the theme of Sam's lost childhood which was very sad.  But I still have problems when they throw the kitchen sink in with the lore.  Now we have leprechauns, the tooth fairy, the Wizard of Oz... and imaginary friends.  What next, Smurfs?

[AwesomO4000]

So, I finally got out my Christmas present season 11 DVD, and this was the first episode I watched. I wanted to see if it held up for me. It did.

I still enjoyed the funny parts, and the emotional parts still got to me. I had even forgotten how much the scene near the end with Sully and Reese got me in the feels. Sully offering to let Reese kill him if it would make her feel better... I thought both actors did a great job there. And this time I wondered if the reason Sam didn't say anything is because he was understanding Sully "wanting to make it right," and so was going to let him do whatever he decided. I'm glad Dean - being sort of an unbiased observer - talked her out of it. Reese might have questioned Sam's motives if he'd tried.

And I loved the personalities of the Zanna. They were good, but naive and flawed, so I found them to be more complex than the typical good guy character.

I'd like to see the Zanna again... but with the British Men of Letters around threatening to kill any supernatural being they find, I'm kinda hoping we won't see them until after the BMoL are out of here.
 

"Because apparently imaginary friends have boyfriends now." Hee.

[KaleyFirefly]

Dean in the bathrobe...mmmmm.

A weird episode, but nice to have a break from Amara (who I'm not that interested in, honestly). Little kid Sam was adorable. The boys in their cardigan sweaters were so nerdy-cute.

[bettername2come]

Nice opening scene. Sam not noticing the rainbow colored foods until he'd passed them three times is funny, but difficult to believe of a huner. Love him punching Sully in the face. Ah, Dean in the robe. Leg! This is the second time they've referenced young Sam liking marshmallows on foods that should not have it (in mac and cheese in "About a Boy" last season.) Oh, Dean tying his robe and sending Sam out of the room to talk to him, while Sam hangs his head. I love the Mr. Rogers look. Young Sam in this episode is my least favorite of the talking Sams. He's just not believable as Sam. Frankly, I would've liked the kid from the last episode as young Sam more, although he's a little too old. Dylan Everett! Nice to see you again. "Manicorn" sounds too close to "Manticore" and now I want to rewatch Dark Angel. "She's got Sparkle on her face!" will never get old. Ditto "Pull up! Pull up!" I love Dean readjusting and trying to be more respectful of the dead mermaid. "Ever think you can fly?...I used to, but I broke my arm." Nice piece of continuity there. The weirdest thing to me about this episode is just how much I buy Weems and Nicky the mermaid as a couple. Weems is totally the imaginary friend Dean would've picked had he been allowed a childhood. I'm imagining a young Colin Ford saying all the young Sam lines and he does it better. Jared plays that teary-eyed moment where he tells Sully about the cage really well. I think Reese and Sully both come off fairly sympathetic. It's nice to see Dean break out of the ropes and just get up to talk Reese down. I like the parallel between Sam being brave and trying to go to the cage to stop the Darkness, and Sully being willing to die to make things right with Reese. 

[Hanahope]

Yeah, I could believe Sam having an imaginary friend, with how much they moved around and Dean getting to join in hunts years before Sam.  I played by myself a lot as a kid too, but I never personified a specific imaginary friend.  LOL at Sam punching Sully in the face.  All that junk food made my teeth hurt.

I'm not sure I get that an imaginary friend, assuming they are in some sense real, would really not know what to do about a child's death.  I mean, isn't that part of what they might help with?  But how messed up must you be to think you are "saving" kids from their imaginary friends by killing them and leaving blood all over their bedroom?

So, ok, but definitely a filler episode.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I'm not sure I get that an imaginary friend, assuming they are in some sense real, would really not know what to do about a child's death.  I mean, isn't that part of what they might help with?  But how messed up must you be to think you are "saving" kids from their imaginary friends by killing them and leaving blood all over their bedroom?

It probably wasn't so much that he couldn't help a child with their sibling's death, but that he felt guilty about it, and therefore, made it about himself, albeit unintentionally.

[ahrtee]

I just rewatched on TNT (actually, more "relistened" since I was doing other things at the same time) and what struck me most (in that half-assed listening mode) was how much Sully sounded like Lucifer when he was trying to seduce Sam.  All that "you're special," "you're too good for this family," "you have to follow your own path..."  The same things that Sam hallucinated Mary telling him when he was detoxing.

If Sam had been hearing that all his life from various people (even Bobby, I think, kept encouraging him, and we know that Dean kept telling Sam how smart and special he was) then no wonder he grew up not only more self-assured and able to go off on his own but also (the negative side) so convinced that he was special and that he knew better than anyone...attitudes that continued throughout all the seasons from the early ones on.

Spoiler

And especially in the very next episode where he chose to go ahead and visit Lucifer in the cage without even waiting for Dean to be there.

[Shannonsspirit]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I just rewatched on TNT (actually, more "relistened" since I was doing other things at the same time) and what struck me most (in that half-assed listening mode) was how much Sully sounded like Lucifer when he was trying to seduce Sam.  All that "you're special," "you're too good for this family," "you have to follow your own path..."  The same things that Sam hallucinated Mary telling him when he was detoxing.

If Sam had been hearing that all his life from various people (even Bobby, I think, kept encouraging him, and we know that Dean kept telling Sam how smart and special he was) then no wonder he grew up not only more self-assured and able to go off on his own but also (the negative side) so convinced that he was special and that he knew better than anyone...attitudes that continued throughout all the seasons from the early ones on.

  Hide contents

And especially in the very next episode where he chose to go ahead and visit Lucifer in the cage without even waiting for Dean to be there.

Seduce Sam?  Sully's intent is to boost Sam up. Sam is a lonely kid, too young to be part of the hunting life. I'm sure that Sully also understands what a frightful and dangerous life it is. If Sam has considered a different path, as I am sure their "do you ever think about" game has revealed, that means that part of Sam does not wish for this life. He wants it to be included. He wants his father and brother to see him as worthy. Sully is helping encourage Sam to believe he is worthy of other things, that his self-respect is not found only in being part of the family  business.

Lucifer finds weaknesses and exploits them with flattery and manipulation. I think Sam went into the cage in Dean's absence because he genuinely believed his was supposed to, per God's wishes. He knew Dean would try and stop him to protect him. Sam was afraid, but had every reason to believe this was God's plan, as did Sully. Sully was helping Sam reach the calm state of mind so Sam could go forth with what he needed to do. 

When Bobby praised Sam it was to Dean, as I remember, in a conversation where both were acknowledging they were to hard on Sam. I honestly can't ever recall Bobby offering that kind of praise to either brother. He loved them, but, mostly, everyone had a job to do.

I don't think Sam operates from over ego. I think he has a genuinely good heart and a strong sense of doing the right thing. And, well, he is special in the sense of that telepathic power. I also think that Sam sees himself as a freak, which is why he can show more empathy and compassion to other freaks. Not all monsters are monsters. Not all demons are evil. Ruby repeatedly pressed that she remembered what it was like to be human and wanted to help humanity. 

Sam instinctively knew he was tainted as a child, and didn't feel good enough to even imagine himself as a knight. If he ultimately found good things in himself and took a stand, even if it didn't always work out, at least he went in with a noble heart.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I don't think Sam operates from over ego. I think he has a genuinely good heart and a strong sense of doing the right thing. And, well, he is special in the sense of that telepathic power. I also think that Sam sees himself as a freak, which is why he can show more empathy and compassion to other freaks. Not all monsters are monsters. Not all demons are evil. Ruby repeatedly pressed that she remembered what it was like to be human and wanted to help humanity.

Sam has both an inferiority and superiority complex and those are a toxic combo. He's always felt inferior in his own family. But he's always felt superior in both morality and intelligence, epecially in regards to Dean. He drank the blood because it made him stronger, a better hunter. He let Ruby be the devil on his shoulder for his own selfish ends all while telling himself it was for the 'greater good'. How many times has he said Dean is too weak to do something so it has to be him? How man times has he made it known he thinks Dean is stupid and holds him back? If that's not ego I don't know what is. That's why he's generally the one to bring on the world ending events while also letting monsters go free. Ruby and Amy killed people. Lenore did not, neither did Benny or Amy's kid. So 3 times Dean was fine with letting monsters exist because they actually didn't kill. Sam only has Lenore on the plus side.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Ruby repeatedly pressed that she remembered what it was like to be human and wanted to help humanity. 

Considering the reveal of her actual intentions and the fact that she lied to both brothers pretty much every time she opened her mouth I would say that this could be taken with a very, very small grain of salt.

2 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Not all demons are evil.

Have we seen any good demons on this show? I'm drawing a blank.

[Shannonsspirit]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering the reveal of her actual intentions and the fact that she lied to both brothers pretty much every time she opened her mouth I would say that this could be taken with a very, very small grain of salt.

Yes. Of course. My point was only that Sam trusted her for that reason. Even Dean and Bobby, to a lesser extent, came to accept her help, with caution, of course, but none the less.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Shannonsspirit

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, Smad said:

Sam has both an inferiority and superiority complex and those are a toxic combo. He's always felt inferior in his own family. But he's always felt superior in both morality and intelligence, epecially in regards to Dean. He drank the blood because it made him stronger, a better hunter. He let Ruby be the devil on his shoulder for his own selfish ends all while telling himself it was for the 'greater good'. How many times has he said Dean is too weak to do something so it has to be him? How man times has he made it known he thinks Dean is stupid and holds him back? If that's not ego I don't know what is. That's why he's generally the one to bring on the world ending events while also letting monsters go free. Ruby and Amy killed people. Lenore did not, neither did Benny or Amy's kid. So 3 times Dean was fine with letting monsters exist because they actually didn't kill. Sam only has Lenore on the plus side.

I love and agree with this entire post!

[Shannonsspirit]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering the reveal of her actual intentions and the fact that she lied to both brothers pretty much every time she opened her mouth I would say that this could be taken with a very, very small grain of salt.

Have we seen any good demons on this show? I'm drawing a blank.

We are seeing Demons who ally for their own purposes. Within the context of the story at the time we are seeing their involvement, Ruby appears to be an ally who remembers what it is like to be human. Meg is more upfront in saying that she needs allies against the common bad. Though I think she did redeem herself a little in the end. Crowley,  most notably and following the human blood, gradually became changed.

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Yes. Of course. My point was only that Sam trusted her for that reason. Even Dean and Bobby, to a lesser extent, came to accept her help, with caution, of course, but none the less.

Sam maybe but did Bobby have any interaction with Ruby beyond when she appeared in his backyard, scared the crap out of him and offered to fix the Colt? If not, I wouldn't call that accepting her help but rather being desperate. Dean doesn't count IMO because he only made peace with Ruby because of Sam's insistence.  I don't think that either points to Ruby's lingering humanity just her ability to be manipulative when need be.

[Shannonsspirit]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Sam maybe but did Bobby have any interaction with Ruby beyond when she appeared in his backyard, scared the crap out of him and offered to fix the Colt? If not, I wouldn't call that accepting her help but rather being desperate. Dean doesn't count IMO because he only made peace with Ruby because of Sam's insistence.  I don't think that either points to Ruby's lingering humanity just her ability to be manipulative when need be.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Ruby was a despicable demon without a shred of humanity. I am talking about how she presented herself as a helpful ally.

[DeeDee79]

Just now, Shannonsspirit said:

We are seeing Demons who ally for their own purposes. Within the context of the story at the time we are seeing their involvement, Ruby appears to be an ally who remembers what it is like to be human. Meg is more upfront in saying that she needs allies against the common bad. Though I think she did redeem herself a little in the end. Crowley,  most notably and following the human blood, gradually became changed.

But that doesn't make them "good demons". I've explained my thoughts on Ruby. Meg doesn't get a pass for torturing and double crossing the brothers in every season because she decided to be halfway decent right before she died. Crowley was an evil jerk his entire time on the show and the only reason why he softened up was because of the demon blood. When the last of it was expelled during The Prisoner he went right back to being as awful as he always had been with the exception of the handful of times that he wanted something in return for his help. 

Just now, Shannonsspirit said:

I think you are misunderstanding me. Ruby was a despicable demon without a shred of humanity. I am talking about how she presented herself as a helpful ally.

I didn't misunderstand. I was replying to the comment on Dean and Bobby accepting her help and my viewpoint on that.

[DeeDee79]

@Shannonsspirit I'm realizing that this conversation is inappropriate to this thread because it doesn't pertain to the episode at hand. I won't say anymore on the subject.

[AwesomO4000]

On 12/3/2019 at 8:21 PM, Smad said:

Lenore did not, neither did Benny or Amy's kid. So 3 times Dean was fine with letting monsters exist because they actually didn't kill. Sam only has Lenore on the plus side.

There was also Sully in this episode, so Sam has at least 2 "monsters" on the plus side. Three if you count Jesse, the antichrist.

Edited December 5, 2019 by AwesomO4000
To be on the safe side

[passatoepresente]

22 hours ago, ahrtee said:

  Hide contents

And especially in the very next episode where he chose to go ahead and visit Lucifer in the cage without even waiting for Dean to be there.

Sam called Dean but  Dean didn't answer the phone

[ahrtee]

52 minutes ago, passatoepresente said:

Sam called Dean but  Dean didn't answer the phone

But there was no immediate need to do the spell *right then.*  They could have waited.  

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, passatoepresente said:

Sam called Dean but  Dean didn't answer the phone

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But there was no immediate need to do the spell *right then.*  They could have waited.  

And Sam promised Dean he would wait.

Spoiler

And once again put the word of a supernatural (Rowena) that he had to do it, and he had to do it *right now* over his promise to his brother.

[Shannonsspirit]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And Sam promised Dean he would wait.

  Hide contents

And once again put the word of a supernatural (Rowena) that he had to do it, and he had to do it *right now* over his promise to his 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Shannonsspirit

[Shannonsspirit]

A beautiful and precious episode about Zanna, Sesame Street Mother Theresa's, where the idea that heroes aren't perfect is explored.

[Myrelle]

I tried to re-watch this one but it was impossible for me because of all the OTT Sam pimping by Sully. I simply turned off the tv at some point because of it, and that I remember even from the first time viewing.

And memories of Speight's comments about the BMs within the episode didn't help either, those being Poor Sam and MEEN!Dean yet again and some more.

The comedic moments were somewhat of a saving grace for the one-time first watch, but as for the rest?-no thanks-a hard pass on all of it for this viewer.

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I tried to re-watch this one but it was impossible for me because of all the OTT Sam pimping by Sully. I simply turned off the tv at some point because of it, and that I remember even from the first time viewing.

And memories of Speight's comments about the BMs within the episode didn't help either, those being Poor Sam and MEEN!Dean yet again and some more.

The comedic moments were somewhat of a saving grace for the one-time first watch, but as for the rest?-no thanks-a hard pass on all of it for this viewer.

Dean in his robe freaking out over Sully in the beginning and the "she's got Sparkle on her face" scene are only ones that are rewatchable for me. Everything else gets a hard pass.

[The Companion]

On 12/2/2015 at 9:50 PM, redfish said:

I thought it was sweet in a perverse kind of way. The entities in this episode don't have an dark motive for a change, they just love the kids they're with.

I loved that the Zannas were exactly as advertised. Sweet and a bit naive and full of good intentions. You have to assume that there are good supernatural entities, but we never see them because hunters would only find them when something bad occurred. They could have been creepy, but I actually found each of them sweet and silly. I loved how they supported their kkis.

On 12/3/2015 at 7:23 PM, SueB said:

 

Good question.

 

I'm going to go with the notion that 1) Zanna are perhaps not capable of evil or 2) the Men of Letters didn't think they existed so they didn't create a  defense combined with 3) Sully has a permanent connection to Sam and can find him anywhere when Sully goes to look.

 

They aren't very powerful either so perhaps they have to have a certain potency to trip the MOL "alarms"?  

 

YES, I'm making shit up.  But I kinda like the idea that the reason Sully could get around the MOL's defenses is that the MOLs were too stuffy to believe in them in the first place.  It would sort of be ... right.  

It seems to me that entities are only discovered because they are doing something bad. These guys only show themselves to kids (who get ignored) and seem to be a force of good. So, I can buy this.

On 12/3/2015 at 11:43 PM, mertensia said:

 

Poor Dean; zanna just aren't his kind of monster.

 

It reminded me of how grumpy he was about fairies. I admit that I sort of love grumpy Dean.

On 10/9/2017 at 7:11 PM, Katy M said:

It probably wasn't so much that he couldn't help a child with their sibling's death, but that he felt guilty about it, and therefore, made it about himself, albeit unintentionally.

And he may have told himself she didn't want to see him.

I see mileage varies greatly on this one. Perhaps it is my lingering love for Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, or perhaps I just didn't have preexisting notions on this one, but I really loved it. I really enjoyed the Zanna conceptually. 

I have pretty much accepted that the show us somewhat inconsistent on flashbacks, so I just roll with it. I actually loved young Dean advocating for Sam abd Sam struggling with feeling left out. I am a middle child, and I really felt those scenes as someone who always wanted to do what my older brother was doing (I actually usually feel more like Dean because of how protective I was over my younger brother, but  I was feeling it from Sam's perspective in this episode).

Oh, and I had an imaginary friend named Emma. My best friend's imaginary friend, Chica, was her BFF.