S04.E08: Legends Of Yesterday (2)

[Starfish35]

Ok, I was distracted by the stupid with Samantha too much to get into this earlier, but now I'm curious. Several comments I've seen other places (and I think here as well but I'm too lazy to search for the specific posts) have heavily implied if not outright stated that the disaster of everyone dying in the first timeline was the result of Oliver's and Felicity's fight. I'm just wondering where that comes from. Did Barry say that? I honestly don't remember. But that was not what I took away from the episode. The glove failing and Kendra's powers not working didn't have anything to do with the Olicity fight. Because Oliver knew they didn't work the first time, he could ask for things to be done differently the second time around, but there's no way in the world anyone could have guessed beforehand that Cisco would be a better choice for training Kendra in her powers than her centuries-long soulmate. Besides, that choice happened even before the fight. The only thing I could see changing was Oliver taking Diggle/Thea/Laurel along instead of benching them, but I'm not sure the way things went down how that would have made any difference.

I don't know - maybe I'm missing something. It's very possible the show was implying that it all happened due to the fight, and just failed to make it make logical sense - wouldn't be the first time. But I guess I'm just not seeing how what happened could have been prevented short of Oliver having knowledge he couldn't possibly have without Barry's time travel.

[statsgirl]

When she read that Moira died, then would have been the time to get in touch with Oliver and tell him. 

 

But she didn't want to. She didn't want him in Williams life at all, and that's all on her.  If she died suddenly, would her son have been left an orphan at the mercy of more distant relatives?

[NumberCruncher]

Ok, I was distracted by the stupid with Samantha too much to get into this earlier, but now I'm curious. Several comments I've seen other places (and I think here as well but I'm too lazy to search for the specific posts) have heavily implied if not outright stated that the disaster of everyone dying in the first timeline was the result of Oliver's and Felicity's fight. I'm just wondering where that comes from. Did Barry say that? I honestly don't remember. But that was not what I took away from the episode. The glove failing and Kendra's powers not working didn't have anything to do with the Olicity fight. Because Oliver knew they didn't work the first time, he could ask for things to be done differently the second time around, but there's no way in the world anyone could have guessed beforehand that Cisco would be a better choice for training Kendra in her powers than her centuries-long soulmate. Besides, that choice happened even before the fight. The only thing I could see changing was Oliver taking Diggle/Thea/Laurel along instead of benching them, but I'm not sure the way things went down how that would have made any difference.

I don't know - maybe I'm missing something. It's very possible the show was implying that it all happened due to the fight, and just failed to make it make logical sense - wouldn't be the first time. But I guess I'm just not seeing how what happened could have been prevented short of Oliver having knowledge he couldn't possibly have without Barry's time travel.

Barry pretty much tells Oliver that it's his fault everyone died because he was distracted after what happened with Felicity after the BM drama.

[Starfish35]

Thanks.

Ok yeah, sorry Barry, but I don't buy that for a moment. This is like the show trying to tell me that Oliver chose Sara over Shado, or that Ra's beat Oliver in The Climb because he was distracted/afraid/whatever it was. Yeah no.

[Morrigan2575]

Ok, I was distracted by the stupid with Samantha too much to get into this earlier, but now I'm curious. Several comments I've seen other places (and I think here as well but I'm too lazy to search for the specific posts) have heavily implied if not outright stated that the disaster of everyone dying in the first timeline was the result of Oliver's and Felicity's fight. I'm just wondering where that comes from. Did Barry say that?

IIRC Barry said that Oliver was distracted. I think we're supposed to assume that Oliver's fight with Felicity lead him to making bad calls (not taking the whole team to face Savage).

Obviously, that wasn't the case because there were a ton of reasons the plan failed (Kendra not being able to fight, gloves not working) none of which were impacted by the fight. Ironically, the one thing that was affected by the fight (Oliver leaving TA behind because he didn't want to lose anyone else) made no difference.

[Starfish35]

Obviously, that wasn't the case because there were a ton of reasons the plan failed (Kendra not being able to fight, gloves not working) none of which were impacted by the fight. Ironically, the one thing that was affected by the fight (Oliver leaving TA behind because he didn't want to lose anyone else) made no difference.

Exactly.

[statsgirl]

It still doesn't stop people from blaming Felicity that the whole city burned up though.

 

What saved them in the second round was Barry listing all the things that went wrong the first time, not Oliver's lie.

[Carrie Ann]

I would believe the "He just loves her so much he had to lie" thing if we hadn't seen in the first timeline he let her walk away and essentially break up with him without a fight. She already knew at that point so there was literally no reason not to explain to her what BM had said about keeping it a secret. 

 

Who's arguing that he loves her so much he had to lie? If you're referring to a post of mine and dtissagirl's that was quoted here, that's an oversimplification and not the focus of those posts. The focus wasn't on why he lied, exactly; it was about why he looked so content and relieved in the final scene, rather than guilty or whatever else we expected to see instead. 

 

Further, I'm confused as to what it means to you that Oliver let Felicity walk away without putting up a fight in the first "breakup" scene? That he doesn't actually love her or care about their relationship enough? Maybe I'm just not following the logic, or maybe we just have different views of the depth of his attachment to her.

 

I agree that Oliver should have stopped Felicity to tell her that Samantha had told him he needed to keep it a secret, but I mean, had they not all died, and that Timeline continued, of course they would have actually talked about the situation and he would have explained that part. The only reason he didn't do it in that moment is external: the writers had no time in the episode to include an actual, full conversation, and more importantly, they didn't want one. They needed that scene to end with Felicity stalking off so Barry could believe that she had broken up with Oliver. I personally didn't see it as a breakup. I assume that Timeline 1 Oliver had grave concerns about what would ultimately result from that conversation, but not that he thought it was over yet.

 

So, Oliver's not putting up a fight means nothing to me in terms of his feelings or motivations, because he clearly would have done so eventually. (That he didn't at that moment was part of what made the ep feel so reminiscent of S3, where all sorts of things would have been resolved if people just sat down and talked through their actions and motivations, instead of jumping to conclusions or making bad choices, and never getting or giving clarification.)

 

Timeline 1 Oliver entered that conversation--and began his investigation into the DNA mess--without the "knowledge" that it would end in Felicity breaking up with him. Timeline 2 Oliver was given that faulty knowledge, and his decisions from that point were informed by it. To me, one telling thing is that he did the same thing both times anyway: he followed Samantha's wishes over his own desire to tell Felicity the truth. T1 Oliver was lying to Felicity again when she "broke up" with him, after begging Samantha not to make him do that. T2 Oliver did the same thing, but in that timeline we can understand that his reactions to things are informed by a deep, deep fear that Felicity would break up with him--including the last scenes, and the look of relief on his face to be in his safe space: Felicity's arms, in the middle of their apartment that had been destroyed by a fan-wielding immortal. :') I think we can all relate.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[wonderwall]

People on tumblr are having fun with Oliver's lies... And IDK why this made me laugh but it did :p

 

http://seriously-olicity.tumblr.com/post/134446013850/i-wish-they-kept-this-version

[hogwash]

Oliver was distracted by both the fight and the BM drama. Barry cuts some the BM drama by telling Oliver straight out that he's the father but the most of that distraction still happens the same way. Blaming it on the fight is a little too close to blaming it on Felicity. But the contrived-as-fuck fight is the distraction that doesn't happen in the new timeline. So it's probably that screwed Oliver up.

 

Barry tells Oliver all three elements (Hawkgirl, gloves, warehouse fight) of the plan they've already formulated fail. He doesn't give Oliver exact details. Oliver does manage to fix all the issues anyway by doing what he (presumably) would've have done if he wasn't panicked by the contrived-as-fuck fight. Micromanage, make sure every element of the plan was fully in place/working, find another way, use the whole team, etc.

 

But blaming it on the fight (aka Felicity) is still screwy cause not-incinerated-Oliver knows about the breakup and that informs his choices, time travel shenanigans, etc.

[Starfish35]

Oliver does manage to fix all the issues anyway by doing what he (presumably) would've have done if he wasn't panicked by the contrived-as-fuck fight. Micromanage, make sure every element of the plan was fully in place/working, find another way, use the whole team, etc.

I don't agree with that. The major thing that changed how it all went down was Cisco working with Kendra instead of Carter. There was no reason whatsoever before the timeline change for Oliver to think that Carter working with Kendra was a bad idea, not to mention that it happened even before the fight. If Oliver was distracted by anything at that point, it was stalking Samantha and William, not the fight with Felicity, which hadn't happened yet.

After the time change, he knew that Kendra wouldn't be able to access her powers when she needed to, so he made Cisco work with her, which resulted in Kendra not only being able to access her powers, but meant that she remembered the crucial element to making the glove work. So none of that had to do with the Olicity fight at all.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

The problem with that though is that the contrived fight happened at the last minute. They had already made the plan with the Gloves, Kendra and the warehouse. The fight happens within a few hours of the deadline because as soon as Felicity stalks off after the fight Arrow/Flash/Hawks leave for the warehouse.

Really everything that changed in the 2nd timeline had nothing to do with Felicity and was just because Barry told Oliver what failed.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Who's arguing that he loves her so much he had to lie? If you're referring to a post of mine and dtissagirl's that was quoted here, that's an oversimplification and not the focus of those posts. The focus wasn't on why he lied, exactly; it was about why he looked so content and relieved in the final scene, rather than guilty or whatever else we expected to see instead. 

 

Further, I'm confused as to what it means to you that Oliver let Felicity walk away without putting up a fight in the first "breakup" scene? That he doesn't actually love her or care about their relationship enough? Maybe I'm just not following the logic, or maybe we just have different views of the depth of his attachment to her.

 

I agree that Oliver should have stopped Felicity to tell her that Samantha had told him he needed to keep it a secret, but I mean, had they not all died, and that Timeline continued, of course they would have actually talked about the situation and he would have explained that part. The only reason he didn't do it in that moment is external: the writers had no time in the episode to include an actual, full conversation, and more importantly, they didn't want one. They needed that scene to end with Felicity stalking off so Barry could believe that she had broken up with Oliver. I personally didn't see it as a breakup. I assume that Timeline 1 Oliver had grave concerns about what would ultimately result from that conversation, but not that he thought it was over yet.

 

So, Oliver's not putting up a fight means nothing to me in terms of his feelings or motivations, because he clearly would have done so eventually. (That he didn't at that moment was part of what made the ep feel so reminiscent of S3, where all sorts of things would have been resolved if people just sat down and talked through their actions and motivations, instead of jumping to conclusions or making bad choices, and never getting or giving clarification.)

 

Timeline 1 Oliver entered that conversation--and began his investigation into the DNA mess--without the "knowledge" that it would end in Felicity breaking up with him. Timeline 2 Oliver was given that faulty knowledge, and his decisions from that point were informed by it. To me, one telling thing is that he did the same thing both times anyway: he followed Samantha's wishes over his own desire to tell Felicity the truth. T1 Oliver was lying to Felicity again when she "broke up" with him, after begging Samantha not to make him do that. T2 Oliver did the same thing, but in that timeline we can understand that his reactions to things are informed by a deep, deep fear that Felicity would break up with him--including the last scenes, and the look of relief on his face to be in his safe space: Felicity's arms, in the middle of their apartment that had been destroyed by a fan-wielding immortal. :') I think we can all relate.

 

I wasn't responding directly to your post. I've just been seeing people say he lied because he didn't want to lose her, which equals to me, he loves her so much he had to lie to not lose her. I have a problem with that because his promise became meaningless in the first timeline. Felicity found out, but instead of mitigating the damage to his relationship, he let her break up with him. I did see it as a break up.

 

All the fight I needed was for him to say the BM made him promise not to tell her. That's it. That he couldn't bring himself to do that baffles me. Or at least tell her he would explain later. Instead he kept completely silent for no reason whatsoever. He saw she was hurting, saw she was doubting and said nothing. That's what I meant by he let her walk away.

 

I understand the writers wrote it this way to stall but, the writers make him do everything. I'm not going to pick and choose what is the writers, and what is the character. I have to take in the totality of his actions(or any characters actions) as a whole, the good stuff, the dumb stuff, and now the godawful stuff. Otherwise it pulls me out of the show.

[kismet]

They're so lucky Felicity and EBR fell into their laps because we know the love story they planned to tell was sure as hell stupid and toxic from the get go. What I don't understand is why they haven't learned from that, why the same people who were brave enough to deviate from comic canon and make a one-time bit part player their hero's one true love, can't deviate from the stupid need to create artificial angst just to stir things up. 

This... thank you!

[kismet]

This is what I don't understand with Oliver. He never fights for anything emotionally, he just stands there looking teary and says and does NOTHING. He did the same thing when Felicity said she didn't want to be a woman he loves. He didn't try and stop her or explain to her or fight to keep her, and again with BM he just went along and didn't do anything more than a single, teary-eyed weak plea to let him tell his serious girlfriend.

I know it's for plot but it is so frustrating to watch. Oliver will do anything to save the people he loves, but only if it involves a physical fight and not an emotional one.

I think this is because in his heart & mind he still feels like he doesn't deserve to have those relationships. That he still feels unworthy of whatever goodness or happiness that comes his way. So when presented with someone confronting him with his worst fears & self-beliefs. He is like "OK" that makes sense. He fights for them physically because he doesn't want them hurt and he wants them to have a life. But you know what, I'm still mad at him - so that is the least amount of defending I will do for him at this time.

[kismet]

I don't agree with that. The major thing that changed how it all went down was Cisco working with Kendra instead of Carter. There was no reason whatsoever before the timeline change for Oliver to think that Carter working with Kendra was a bad idea, not to mention that it happened even before the fight. If Oliver was distracted by anything at that point, it was stalking Samantha and William, not the fight with Felicity, which hadn't happened yet.

After the time change, he knew that Kendra wouldn't be able to access her powers when she needed to, so he made Cisco work with her, which resulted in Kendra not only being able to access her powers, but meant that she remembered the crucial element to making the glove work. So none of that had to do with the Olicity fight at all.

Perhaps it really was all the donkey's fault since I think he was only in the timeline 1 convo.

 

Realistically, I agree with you & others there were so many reasons Timeline 1 ended so badly and most of it was not OQ/BM/FS. The majority of it was Cisco working with Kendra. Although I tend to zone out when CIsco is on the screen so maybe other people do as well. But even in my distracted haze I could piece together that CIsco working with Kendra was the breakthrough that lead to the meteoric discovery & her wings working which is why they won.

[Carrie Ann]

I understand the writers wrote it this way to stall but, the writers make him do everything. I'm not going to pick and choose what is the writers, and what is the character. I have to take in the totality of his actions(or any characters actions) as a whole, the good stuff, the dumb stuff, and now the godawful stuff. Otherwise it pulls me out of the show.

 

Ah, okay, I get this, but my question is still the same, I guess. If you won't write it off for external reasons, then you are left to draw conclusions from it. What is your conclusion as to why Oliver didn't explain himself while Felicity was saying her "you don't love or trust me and you never will" piece?

 

To me, the only in-text answer that works with my understanding of Oliver is that he was shaken and overwhelmed and couldn't pull it together to speak up for himself (aside from the "this just happened, I think I'm entitled to some time to process") when he knew he had kept a secret from her, of his own volition, at every step except the last one, when you can blame Samantha, I suppose. I think the time he needed to process was really the time he needed to decide whether he was going to be able to abide by Samantha's wishes or not. Otherwise he's just a weasel, for telling Felicity that. And again, I believe he assumed they would talk again later, when things were over and she'd had time to cool off. Their fight patterns indicate that when she says she needs time/air, she means it. And as others have complained, this is also pattern of behavior for Oliver. People yell a bunch of things at him and he stands there and takes it, saying nothing of use to defend himself. Why? Again, my answer lies outside the text (where's the conflict if we just let adults talk to each other like real people do?), but in-show, I think there are also some pretty ready conclusions to draw based on his psychological profile.

[paigow]

Even if blood testing was not on the agenda...that arrow could have been re-used. Much like leaving unconscious Roy in a puddle, Ollie has no time for tidying up...

But nope, they just left the bloodied arrow on the ground.

[AyChihuahua]

I think this is because in his heart & mind he still feels like he doesn't deserve to have those relationships. That he still feels unworthy of whatever goodness or happiness that comes his way. So when presented with someone confronting him with his worst fears & self-beliefs. He is like "OK" that makes sense. He fights for them physically because he doesn't want them hurt and he wants them to have a life. But you know what, I'm still mad at him - so that is the least amount of defending I will do for him at this time.

He's basically a complete emotional coward.  

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Ah, okay, I get this, but my question is still the same, I guess. If you won't write it off for external reasons, then you are left to draw conclusions from it. What is your conclusion as to why Oliver didn't explain himself while Felicity was saying her "you don't love or trust me and you never will" piece?

 

To me, the only in-text answer that works with my understanding of Oliver is that he was shaken and overwhelmed and couldn't pull it together to speak up for himself (aside from the "this just happened, I think I'm entitled to some time to process") when he knew he had kept a secret from her, of his own volition, at every step except the last one, when you can blame Samantha, I suppose. I think the time he needed to process was really the time he needed to decide whether he was going to be able to abide by Samantha's wishes or not. Otherwise he's just a weasel, for telling Felicity that. And again, I believe he assumed they would talk again later, when things were over and she'd had time to cool off. Their fight patterns indicate that when she says she needs time/air, she means it. And as others have complained, this is also pattern of behavior for Oliver. People yell a bunch of things at him and he stands there and takes it, saying nothing of use to defend himself. Why? Again, my answer lies outside the text (where's the conflict if we just let adults talk to each other like real people do?), but in-show, I think there are also some pretty ready conclusions to draw based on his psychological profile.

 

That's the thing. I have no idea why he stayed silent. He came across to me as defensive and a little ashamed because he was so weak that he caved to BM's demands and the fact that a part of him doesn't completely trust Felicity.

[Password]

He's been an emotional coward since his pre-island days. These really are Ollie issues. I know PTSD comes into play here because he has bucket loads of it, but we have no situation to compare it with where his reaction was healthy. Argh I'm just so frustrated at these writers. They make it so hard to even LIKE Oliver.

[paigow]

Donkey running away to meet....

[Password]

http://tvline.com/2015/12/03/arrow-season-4-oliver-felicity-breakup/

This has already been posted, but people should check out the comments. EVERYONE hates the BM storyline. It's kind of hilarious. Dudebros hate the angst/think Felicity is nosy and bitchy. O/F people hate the contrived drama and relationship angst. Casual viewers hate the angst and soapiness. Oliver fans hate how Oliver is regressing. Felicity fans hate how Oliver is lying to and manipulating her (again).

So basically Guggie is batting .1000. Every category of viewers hates it.

Other than the "Felicity was OOC" comments I agreed with many of the comments. The writers have truly united the Arrow fandom. Baby mama is probably the most hated character of Arrow now.

[catrox14]

 

So basically Guggie is batting .1000. Every category of viewers hates it.

 

Not to be all basebally about it but wouldn't Guggie really be batting below the Mendoza line on this one. :P

[NumberCruncher]

Nvm

Edited December 5, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[kismet]

Well the writers didn't help when they had BA say we lost because Ollie you were distracted. Ummm, NO ~ it was a team effort and a couple of things went wrong - specifically glove & Kendra. Why is it that in show it's ok to remember OQ as being an individual when blame needs to get assigned, but when its time to give out praise or acknowledgement everything has to be about a team. I love BA, but if he had not talked to OQ about some details of why things failed, but left out other details we might have got a better ending. Of course, it made it seem like it was all FS's fault for distracting OQ. The show has basically set that up as an option for an in-show reason for why everything bad happens.

 

That's on the writers. But I do weep a little internally for the fandom as well. That being said this new turn of events is going to be a rough go for all branches of the fandom if the writers pursue the BM plot in the most predictable & worst way imaginable.

[chaos is welcome]

The problem with that though is that the contrived fight happened at the last minute. They had already made the plan with the Gloves, Kendra and the warehouse. The fight happens within a few hours of the deadline because as soon as Felicity stalks off after the fight Arrow/Flash/Hawks leave for the warehouse.

Really everything that changed in the 2nd timeline had nothing to do with Felicity and was just because Barry told Oliver what failed.

Oliver was also AROUND the day before the fight, instead of stalking bm, getting hair samples blah blah blah. To see the issues, plan with team, etc.

I loved having him lead for a change. Missed that.

I watched the whole ep this time and actually hated it a bit less. Oliver still is really damanged...I think in a way, felicity WAS right in timeline 1...oliver doesn't trust her. Not that he doesn't trust her with his life, but that he doesn't trust her not to leave. So I think live sick puppy Oliver is just because he's so damn glad they aren't dead. He probably hasn't thought about the long range consequences yet. But it better come up sooner rather than later because the more he lies the less I will sympathize

[paigow]

Oliver has a "very particular set of skills" that includes lying. He is more of a spy / assassin than soldier. "When you're a spy" lying is an essential survival skill that cannot be turned off easily.

 

the more he lies the less I will sympathize

[Kordi]

I wasn't responding directly to your post. I've just been seeing people say he lied because he didn't want to lose her, which equals to me, he loves her so much he had to lie to not lose her.

 

Dear @RoyRogersMc Freely, I guess you are referring to my post, and I’d like to comment on your thoughts.

 

I’m indeed of the opinion that, in the second timeline, Oliver lies to Felicity when they are back at the loft after defeating Vandal Savage (telling her that everything was fine when she asked him about what was going on in his mind), because

- he is afraid of losing the committed love relationship he has with her, and

- he believes (albeit wrongly, based on Barry’s sketchy information about O/F’s fight in the first timeline) that if she found out about William, it would be over between him and her.

 

However, the factual statement about Oliver’s actual motive for lying to Felicity:

- “Oliver lies to her, because he doesn’t want to lose her”.

isn’t equal to the normative statement about an attempted justification for Oliver’s lie:

- “Oliver HAD TO lie to Felicity in order not to lose her”.

Although I believe that Oliver’s desire to be with Felicity (+ his false conviction that he would lose her if he told her the truth) is indeed his reason for lying to her, I don’t believe that it is a good reason. I try to understand Oliver’s action, I don’t defend it.

 

Now, I’d like to explain why I posted about Oliver’s reason for his lie in the first place: Like many people in this forum I asked myself during and after the episode: WHY does Oliver lie to Felicity at the end of 4x08? At first, two possible answers came to my mind, both of which seem unsatisfactory:

 

- “Oliver lies to Felicity, because he thinks that if he doesn’t fulfill Samantha’s wish, he won’t be able to meet William and spend some time with him”.

I don’t like this answer, because I can’t believe that Oliver is THAT stupid. There are other obvious possibilities, and whether these alternatives turn out to be viable options or not, at least Oliver should consider them first before dismissing them: i.e. taking legal means in order to enforce his right to visit William, or simply talking to Felicity without letting Samantha know about it.

 

- “Oliver lies to Felicity, because he regresses to a former self of his: either to the PTSD suffering post-Island vigilante who, in general, is reluctant to tell the truth and prefers to keep secrets from others, especially those close to him, or even to the spoiled brat pre-Island Ollie who only cares about himself and lies whenever it seems to be convenient for him”.

I don’t like this answer either, basically for two reasons: The first one is a kind of meta-reason regarding the writing’s effect on the audience: It would be boring. It would mean that now, in S4, we are watching Oliver’s development from the first three seasons all over again. It would be repetitious story-telling. The second reason has to do with Oliver’s character in S4. IMO he has come a long way since his return to Star(ling) City. He has shown at least some degree of personal growth. Such a kind of regression simply doesn’t fit in with what we have seen on screen. S4-Oliver isn’t the same guy we met in S1-S3. He wouldn’t suddenly slip back to his former self for no good reason.

 

Therefore I tried to find (cook up/ fanwank) a different answer that is slightly more satisfying (I hope).  And it goes like this: S4-Oliver differs from S3-Oliver especially regarding his attitude towards a committed love relationship with Felicity. During S3, Oliver’s attitude can be summed up like this:

- “I can’t be with the woman I love”.

But now, in S4, his attitude seems to be the opposite, something more like:

- “I can’t be WITHOUT the woman I love”.

(If you have any doubt about this, please remember what he said in 4x07 about having found peace through his relationship with Felicity. Furthermore, I interpret his cuddling with Felicity at the end of 4x08 as a sign of his utter relief that he hasn’t lost her. This guy is clinging to her as if he were clinging to life itself! A life without her has become unthinkable for him.)

 

IMO this new attitude is an improvement compared to his attitude in S3, because now he has learned:

- “I can have a good and happy relationship if I want to”.

However, his new attitude is still somewhat flawed and immature. Now, he has to learn:

- “I can live well and happily on my own if I have to”.

Felicity harnesses his light, but she isn’t his light. She helps him to grow, but he has to grow on his own. There is no doubt that Oliver can survive on his own. He has proven this time and again. But now he has to learn to live on his own, i.e. to have a decent, balanced, healthy, and –to a certain degree– happy life independently of Felicity’s constant support.

 

But he isn’t there yet. Right now he can’t imagine a life without the relationship he has with the woman he loves, and since he takes it for certain (based on what Barry told him) that his relationship would be over, as soon as she got to know the truth, he chooses the (apparently) easiest option in order to avoid any risk of losing Felicity: he doesn’t tell her about William and pretends that everything is just fine.

 

This is stupid, because he should know that she is going to find out anyway. (After all, she is incredibly good at gathering information, and he is a terrible liar.) It is shortsighted, because he doesn’t take into account all the future lies he will have to tell her from now on in order to keep her from finding out the truth. It is selfish, because what drives him is his desperate personal need to have her in his life. More importantly, it’s unfair, because Felicity has a right to know something that is relevant for her decision whether she wants to stay in a long-term love relationship with Oliver or not. Is it a regression on Oliver’s part? Well, at the level of his behavior, yes, it is: He reverts to lying, something that he has done (too) many times already. However, I would not consider it a full-fledged regression at the level of his character or his personality, because his motive for his lie is a new one, based on a new attitude towards his relationship with Felicity, an attitude he didn’t have before the end 3x23. IMO his “protecting” the relationship with Felicity (using bad, inappropriate means) fits in with the mind set of S4-Oliver as we got to know him during the episodes 4x01-4x07. It fits in with the mind set of person who earnestly wants to be in a lasting committed relationship (at last!), but who hasn’t figured out yet how to do this responsibly.

 

In conclusion, I would like to explain why I went to such great lengths reflecting on Oliver’s reasons for lying to Felicity (and bothering you with my ramblings):

 

IMO it is obvious that the writers have inserted this terrible baby mama plot in 4x08, because they think:

- “The audience will get bored with Olicity if they stay together as a happy couple; therefore, we have to break them up somehow in order to keep them interesting”.

- “We have to stall an Olicity wedding until S5 (when we get syndication for ARROW), because this will help us to sell the show to other networks”.

They are not writing for character, they are writing in adherence to (dubious) TV laws.

 

The only way I can tolerate this writing and survive watching this awful soap opera drama is by making up my own explanation of it, based on where Oliver is right now in S4 and what has to happen next in order for him to grow as a person and as a superhero. The best I can come up with is the following:

 

It makes (at least some) sense for the show to drive a wedge between Oliver and Felicity and provoke a temporary breakup in S4, because it gives Oliver the opportunity to learn to have a decent, balanced, healthy, and –to a certain degree– happy life independently of Felicity’s constant support. A breakup gives Oliver the space he needs in order to learn how to live (not only survive) as a single (not lonely!) person – by being a loving brother to Thea, being a close friend to Diggle, Barry etc. as well as being a responsible superhero (by night) and a committed mayor (by day) to Star City. Only after learning  how to keep his inner light shining bright on his own (without constant assistance from other people), he will be ready to enter a new and definitive relationship with Felicity and find (a higher degree of) happiness together with her.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Kordi

[bijoux]

I've decided that Oliver was simply relieved for everyone to be alive at the end of the episode and his thought process didn't include getting away with lying. It's the first time we see him with Felicity after the final fight, so that's what his initial response is supposed to be. That way I'm free of overthinking it until after the hiatus. Because going by how they've structured episodes this season, it won't be brought up next week.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

@ Kordi

I wasn't directly responding to your post either. More the idea that he lied to keep her in the second timeline, but he wouldn't tell the smidgen of the truth that he needed to to keep her in the first. He would rather see her hurt than give her that. I can't reconcile that in my mind. That's never going to not bother me.

 

I think he loves her in parts selfishly and unselfishly.

Edited December 5, 2015 by RoyRogersMcFreely

[JenMD]

I've decided that Oliver was simply relieved for everyone to be alive at the end of the episode

 

Also, like me, he could have simply been relieved the episode was over.

[dtissagirl]

This is what happens when terribad writing infects a character that was having a really nice stride of awesome development. The narrative is hilariously trying to sell this as an insurmountable problem for poor Oliver, and it just isn't.

[diebartdie]

I dont get Samantha at all. She claims Oliver somehow took everything from her, I guess by somehow forcing her to be a single mom. Well that house she's got was seriously awesome. My spouse and I both have decent jobs and our house is not anywhere near as sweet as hers. So she apparently, without cashing that million dollar check managed to do things to have a GREAT life (judging by the house, her clothes, how well behaved her son is) and yet she still harbors a grudge against Oliver? Seriously? It was his mother who was all under handed, Oliver would have married her and helped raise that kid and in fact, had THAT happened, the Arrow never would have happened. She SUCKS and everyone here who has pointed out how easy it would be for Oliver to just stroll on down to the lawyer and secure AT LEAST visitation rights to his son is so right on the money. That whole scenario is just bullshit. ALSO, even though that timeline got erased it was still utter bullshit for Felicity to dump Oliver like that and in that moment. FFS, it was not Felicity's first time at the rodeo, she would have bided her time until the immediate crisis was over before TALKING to Oliver about the paternity test. Seriously, that just came out of NOWHERE. Besides that bullshit though, I really enjoyed both sides of the crossover episode.

[AyChihuahua]

This is what happens when terribad writing infects a character that was having a really nice stride of awesome development. The narrative is hilariously trying to sell this as an insurmountable problem for poor Oliver, and it just isn't.

Exactly.  If I never hear he's between a rock and a hard place again it will be too soon.  ALL HE HAS TO DO IS TELL FELICITY.  He knows very well she would NEVER spill a secret that would endanger him seeing his son.  That's just crazy talk.

I've decided that Oliver was simply relieved for everyone to be alive at the end of the episode and his thought process didn't include getting away with lying. It's the first time we see him with Felicity after the final fight, so that's what his initial response is supposed to be. That way I'm free of overthinking it until after the hiatus. Because going by how they've structured episodes this season, it won't be brought up next week.

It's not really the first time, is it?  They would have traveled back from the farm together, gone back to the loft together, gotten ready for bed together, etc.  

 

He's compartmentalizing, like he always does.  He's so good at it it's creepy.

[Chaser]

Can someone refresh my memory, when Oliver was leaving in the morning did he mention looking into something with DD before he said he would tell her about it all?

[dtissagirl]

Exactly.  If I never hear he's between a rock and a hard place again it will be too soon.  ALL HE HAS TO DO IS TELL FELICITY.  He knows very well she would NEVER spill a secret that would endanger him seeing his son.  That's just crazy talk.

 

Yes, this. It's the half-baked melodrama that kills me. He's not being forced to lie AT ALL [because there's no way BM can enforce it], he's just lying, because reasons that the writers forgot to write. So we're here scratching our collective heads trying to suss out WHY is Oliver lying.

 

And seriously. You want an OMG HUGE SECRET storyline, fine, but then you have to write it in a way that I can't poke holes just by staring. For fuck's sake, give Samantha a legit reason to ask Oliver to lie, I don't know, she and William are in Witness Protection or something, and then there's actual motivation behind the part where nobody can know.

 

Then there's actual conflict, rather than Oliver looking really really stupid. Again.

Edited December 5, 2015 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

Yes, this. It's the half-baked melodrama that kills me. He's not being forced to lie AT ALL [because there's no way BM can enforce it], he's just lying, because reasons that the writers forgot to write. So we're here scratching our collective heads trying to suss out WHY is Oliver lying.

 

And seriously. You want an OMG HUGE SECRET storyline, fine, but then you have to write it in a way that I can't poke holes just by staring. For fuck's sake, give Samantha a legit reason to ask Oliver to lie, I don't know, she and William are in Witness Protection or something, and then there's actual motivation behind the part where nobody can know.

 

Then there's actual conflict, rather than Oliver looking really really stupid. Again.

You know what, if I just thought he was lying because he's stupid and doesn't realize he doesn't need to lie, I'd be a lot happier.  But because it's so incredibly obvious that he could just tell her and BM would never know, coupled with Barry telling him Felicity dumped him, seemingly just for having a kid v. lying about it, I'm left with the conclusion that he's lying to her so she doesn't dump him.  That is what REALLY infuriates me.  It's straight-up emotional manipulation.

[Orion]

Can someone refresh my memory, when Oliver was leaving in the morning did he mention looking into something with DD before he said he would tell her about it all?

 

No he tells her that he has to look into something and when she pressures him for more information he says that there is something going on and he'll tell her all about it, he just wants to know what he is dealing with first.

 

To be fair to Oliver, and god knows I don't want to be fair to Oliver, the show went out of it's way to establish in that conversation that he intended to tell Felicity everything. He didn't immediately default to I'm going to lie. 

 

The show also left how he answered BM's blackmail the first time up in the air. We don't know if he told her the same line he gave Felicity, that he needed time to process and decide if he could lie to his girlfriend or he could have told her that he was going to a lawyer because he wasn't going to lie. The show left that un answered.

 

The writers seem to really want this BM breaks them up storyline but they don't want to actually have Oliver or Felicity be at serious fault (even though I think they missed their marks on not making Oliver look like a shit. Mainly because they left all this in subtext instead of giving Oliver a voice in show about what he is thinking) . BM is the fall guy with her stupid don't tell ANYONE and Barry Allen also has an assist for not being able to play whisper down the lane effectively.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Orion

[looptab]

 

The writers seem to really want this BM breaks them up storyline but they don't want to actually have Oliver or Felicity be at serious fault (even though I think they missed their marks on not making Oliver look like a shit. Mainly because they left all this in subtext instead of giving Oliver a voice in show about what he is thinking) . BM is the fall guy with her stupid don't tell ANYONE and Barry Allen also has an assist for not being able to play whisper down the lane effectively.

I'm pretty sure the show is also framing BM's reasons as legitimate motherly concern. They are trying to put her in a good light. They are a bunch of morons.

[dtissagirl]

You know what, if I just thought he was lying because he's stupid and doesn't realize he doesn't need to lie, I'd be a lot happier. 

 

What's funnier is that I truly think this is part of what the script is going for. Oliver is lying in part because he feels like he has no other option. And in part because they need to break up O/F during February Sweeps, and this + Barry telling him Felicity dumps him if she knows he has a son is the setup.

[apinknightmare]

One thing that is fairly consistent with Oliver (even though he should've learned by now), is that if someone makes a demand of him, and they're holding a loved one over his head, he goes along with that demand without question, doesn't even consider an alternative until Felicity offers him one.

[Chaser]

It hurts that Larry leaves Oliver the impression that his son is a problem for Felicity.

The fact that Oliver and Larry would believe that of Felicity is ridiculous.

Barry is Larry every time this is brought up. Thanks dtissagirl!

[bijoux]

It's not really the first time, is it? They would have traveled back from the farm together, gone back to the loft together, gotten ready for bed together, etc.

He's compartmentalizing, like he always does. He's so good at it it's creepy.

I meant the first time the audience sees them together after the battle. Everything else happened off screen prior to it. And apart from coming up to the loft, I assume they wouldn't have been alone. Getting ready for bed would have happened after the episode.

[Ceylon5]

The reason it was all such a head-scratching plot contrivance for me is that they've established that Oliver wants to marry Felicity, and I think from that and the longing look he gave her with baby Sara the previous year we can assume he wants to have kids with her.  So from the moment he saw the kid and thought it might be his, I (perhaps naively) thought he would have wanted to talk to Felicity about it - especially since she noticed right away that something was bothering him and gave him an opening to tell her about it.  Even if the kid had turned out not to be his, it still would have been the perfect opportunity to tell her about how he'd once got someone pregnant and she'd lost the baby and how he'd felt about that.  I think that's something he definitely would have told her at some point anyway, because it was an important moment in his life and something a person should know about their spouse.  And obviously had it turned out that he had a kid, then she could have helped him deal with that.  And if Felicity had known from the get-go, then the mother's ultimatum would have been too late (as, incidentally, it already is with regards to Barry).

 

It just didn't ring true to me that it's something that he would have wanted to keep from her at any point, so all the rubbish that followed just increasingly annoyed me, regardless of which timeline we were in or how it played out.  They piled nonsense on top of nonsense, because in Timeline 1, when he was lying and then being all defensive, it still made no sense to me.  He'd indicated that he'd tell her later if it turned out to be something, and it had turned out to be something.  So if he was still intending to talk to her about it, but thought that was the wrong moment for it (which it was), he would have just said, "There's something important I need to tell you, but now isn't the right time.  We'll have a proper talk after we've dealt with Savage."  (And then they all would have died, end of story.)  The fact that he didn't say that, and that they made him respond the way he did made it seem like he wouldn't have actually told her later (the same as in Timeline 2) if she hadn't already known, so that made no sense to me either.  And the end of Timeline 2 was just ???.  If Oliver didn't tell her because he thinks she'd break up with him because he has a kid, then she was absolutely right in Timeline 1 - he really doesn't trust her.  And she has good reason not to trust him.  So where does that leave us all?

 

Side-note: It also made me roll my eyes a bit that after Felicity magically made the video tape play on her computer and Laurel said dramatically that "Someone needs to inform Oliver and Barry" (which was the super-contrived reason Felicity was at Barry's lab to intercept the paternity test), instead of Felicity texting or calling Barry and Oliver with an update, she drove all the way into town and tracked Barry down personally.  Although I don't think it would have taken much skill to find him at his work place in the middle of the day, it did amuse me that after she says she finds people for a living, she adds, "Actually, I don't get paid."  [Note to self: being a superhero doesn't pay well (or at all) - cross off to-do list.]

Edited December 5, 2015 by Ceylon5

[nksarmi]

You know they should have skipped all this crap and made it so that Oliver DID know he had a kid - say he found out during his five year stint on the island (Argus/Waller told him) and he decided then and there he wouldn't pursue things so he's never told anyone.  Then pick things up in CC where it effects him on an emotional level because he wonders if he should reach out to the kid and finally decides to confront BM about it and they decide together to introduce him to the boy as "mommy's friend."  Then don't have her ask him to lie about, but just have him be unsure if he should tell anyone because he isn't sure if he wants to be the kid's dad or not.

 

Because the thing is....it makes perfect damn sense with life as GA and the fact that Darhk is gunning for Oliver Queen that this is not the time to publically acknowledge a child.  It also makes perfect damn sense with Felicity's father abandoning her and her mom that Oliver would be reluctant to talk to her about this because he doesn't want to look bad in front of her.  If they had shown that this was a long-time secret that Oliver knew about that just recently resurfaced for him emotionally - and he just didn't tell Felicity (as opposed to outright lied to her about it) - ie he says "It's something from my past that I'm not ready to talk about - someday, I promise, but not now" - I really don't think it would look all that bad.

 

They could still have their story....the news of the kid could still come out, Darkh could still threaten the child, Felicity could still wonder why Oliver didn't want to be part of his son's life, and all the other ensuing drama but it would all come from a place that made a certain amount of sense.  So I guess for me, it isn't just the story - it's the execution and they are making everyone look bad in the process of telling this story so far - I hope that changes.

[kismet]

Nah, I'm glad he didn't know before now. Keeping the secret for a few weeks or months is forgivable. He is still working out the situation. Emotions are running all over the place. But it would've been unforgivable if he kept this secret for years from FS & even TQ. If he meant to make them important parts of his life.

Part of the reason I think everyone is mad with the story is because we know the writers will draw this story out for longer than realistic. OQ knowing and keeping it secret for years might be realistic if they wrote it a certain way but it makes him a horrible person. And even with all of his faults OQ is not a horrible person. He makes mistakes. And his deception at the end of the episode was a mistake. A big mistake with repercussions & consequences but not a years long calculated disception.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

Nah, I'm glad he didn't know before now. Keeping the secret for a few weeks or months is forgivable. He is still working out the situation. Emotions are running all over the place. But it would've been unforgivable if he kept this secret for years from FS & even TQ. If he meant to make them important parts of his life.

Part of the reason I think everyone is mad with the story is because we know the writers will draw this story out for longer than realistic. OQ knowing and keeping it secret for years might be realistic if they wrote it a certain way but it makes him a horrible person. And even with all of his faults OQ is not a horrible person. He makes mistakes. And his deception at the end of the episode was a mistake. A big mistake with repercussions & consequences but not a years long calculated disception.

 

See I disagree on the secret keeping part.  If he had been keeping the secret for years because of the dangerous life he led while on the island and when he got back, I could forgive that.  I can even forgive him for keeping the secret now.  But to me - his reason for keeping it has to be an internal reason where he decided not to put the boy in danger, disrupt the mother/son's life, etc...  If Oliver wants to keep that secret - it really is his business. 

 

I don't know that I believe that you must tell someone everything about your past when you get into a relationship with them.  Sure, a secret love child might be a big enough thing that it should warrant a mention but then again - maybe not if you believe it will have zero impact on your current loved one.  Let me frame it another way - if Felicity had gotten pregnant in college and given the baby up for adoption and had no ongoing relationship or ties to that child - I don't believe she is obligated to tell Oliver about that.  If she does, great.  But I don't believe she owes it to him.

 

Now if you think a woman having a baby and giving it up for adoption and not revealing it to her future husband makes her a horrible person - then I guess that would apply to Oliver as well in that situation.  But to me - it falls into a gray area which is why I say I would have preferred the scenario I presented.  Now I understand why some might say that just means he was lying longer.....but I wonder how often someone does give a child up for adoption and not tell their future spouses about it.  And I wonder if that really qualifies as deception or if it's just "trying to forget about a difficult time in their lives when they made the hardest decision ever."  Either way, it would have been more dramatic and in character than what we got.

 

Personally, what I think is really bad is the fact that it appears that he is going to engage in an ongoing deception of Felicity by seeking to have an "uncle" type relationship with said child and NOT reveal it to Felicity. I also strongly dislike that he didn't want to keep this secret/lie to Felicity but that he appears to have gotten strong-armed into it by the BM.  That makes Oliver look wishy washy and a little weak.  Instead of painting him like a woman who gave their child up so the boy could have a better life - they have painted him as someone who wants to have his life with Felicity and have a life with BM and his son on the side that she doesn't know about.  Sure it's not his idea but he will go with it.  I would have respected the first scenario a hell of a lot more than what we got.

Edited December 5, 2015 by nksarmi

[apinknightmare]

What I think is bad is the fact that it appears that he is going to engage in an ongoing deception of Felicity by seeking to have an "uncle" type relationship with said child and NOT reveal it to Felicity. 

 

See, this is where I need to hear from him. He was told William could never be a part of his world, and that William could never know that Oliver was his father. Maybe Oliver is hoping for more at some point, but I don't know that because he wasn't given a voice for his reasoning. Samantha played to Oliver's insecurities by telling him that being a part of his kid's life would be bad for his kid. He even told Barry he thought it might be better if he stayed away from William. So, we know his mind is definitely going there. 

 

If he thinks he's going to go through life having a relationship with the kid where he shows up every once in a while as "mommy's friend Oliver," doesn't have any other kind of rights or responsibilities other than that because that's all Samantha was willing to offer him, then I can see him rationalizing it because it's not like he's going to be an actual father to the kid. 

 

Not telling Felicity about the kid is terrible either way, I can just understand one reason for keeping it from her a lot more than the other. This is just MHO, I know other people feel differently. 

Edited December 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[nksarmi]

See, this is where I need to hear from him. He was told William could never be a part of his world, and that William could never know that Oliver was his father. Maybe Oliver is hoping for more at some point, but I don't know that because he wasn't given a voice for his reasoning. Samantha played to Oliver's insecurities by telling him that being a part of his kid's life would be bad for his kid. He even told Barry he thought it might be better if he stayed away from William. So, we know his mind is definitely going there. 

 

If he thinks he's going to go through life having a relationship with the kid where he shows up every once in a while as "mommy's friend Oliver," doesn't have any other kind of rights or responsibilities other than that because that's all Samantha was willing to offer him, then I can see him rationalizing it because it's not like he's going to be an actual father to the kid. 

 

Not telling Felicity about the kid is terrible either way, I can just understand one reason for keeping it from her a lot more than the other. This is just MHO, I know other people feel differently. 

 

See for me - it should have gone something like this: when Oliver and Barry were talking and Barry said, "I think you should be a part of the kid's life" - Oliver should have thought about Darhk and said "maybe when it's safer" and then they should have shown him having an entirely different conversation with baby momma. Something like "I know and I just want you to know that I know.  So if you ever need anything, please come to me." And then perhaps he asked if he could meet the boy "as mommy's friend" with no illusion that he wanted to have any kind of ongoing contact.  Maybe have Oliver look back at the house as he leaves and say something like "someday, but not until I take care of a few things first." 

 

If they had done that, I would not care that he is keeping this to himself.  He also should have told Felicity something like "I was upset about something that happened in my past, long before I met you and I don't want to talk about it yet.  Someday, but not now." 

 

As odd of a statement as this is - I do believe you can keep something to yourself without exactly lying to or deceiving someone else.  And it is ok to tell someone, "I don't want to talk about it yet."

Edited December 5, 2015 by nksarmi