S02.E08: Legends Of Today

[miracole]

I have a best friend. She has never shown up at my workplace

But I'm pretty sure she would have shown up if you'd gotten your back broken.

No one is saying Iris has to be in every scene but she obviously could be a bigger part of team flash. And she's able to protect herself just fine even better than other characters who go everywhere.

Just regular stuff that Iris should be a part of she isn't. Even a SL about her life she's not a part of. I still don't think she knows what happened to her mentor from the newspaper. It's clear the writers have no interest in writing for her character.

[phoenics]

I don't think the unrealistic hacking jobs are anything other then them not wanting to waste time showing things they don't need to waste time showing. Who cares if it takes her two seconds or two minutes? I'd rather watch something else in the time I'd have to wait for her to realistically get into a system or do whatever, but that's just me. 

 

She has a very big, very real flaw that's been showcased quite a few times over the past two seasons: when she's stressed or angry, she's nasty as hell. She's said some legit mean things to Oliver (and maybe some other people, I can't remember) numerous times.

I can only remember her saying anything mean in S3 onward - not S1-2 as I mentioned in my post. My point was that she was allowed to be "sweetness and light" for two full seasons so that if she finally said something harsh later (you'd have to remind me that she said something harsh in S3 because I don't remember) it wouldn't register much on people's "hate" scale.

[Ruby25]

But why?? Why do the writers hate Iris so much? She's not nearly as hated by the audience as Laurel was for so long, and they continued to write for her. I don't understand this. And she's SUCH an important character in Flash comics- I think this is really criminal, what they're doing to that character.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Oh, they are totally a couple on Earth-3 ... in my head.

 

It would have been nice to see Iris and Felicity catch up. Last time they were together (onscreen) Iris' boyfriend was Eddie and she didn't know Barry's secret, and Felicity was dating Ray, and is now dating the guy she has a crush on....

Well, EBR said in an interview that she doesn't really know Iris and it's clear that Felicity doesn't remember Iris either, so I think it's safe to say that Iris and Felicity won't be hanging out anytime soon.

[apinknightmare]

I can only remember her saying anything mean in S3 onward - not S1-2 as I mentioned in my post. My point was that she was allowed to be "sweetness and light" for two full seasons so that if she finally said something harsh later (you'd have to remind me that she said something harsh in S3 because I don't remember) it wouldn't register much on people's "hate" scale.

 

She told Oliver that he didn't have any feelings, she told Oliver that he would be happy if Ray died. She was nasty to Oliver for pretty much all of the 6th episode this season. She was a day player in S1, and wasn't a main character in S2 - she basically served the plot for the most part, and was mainly around to be comic relief. I don't think there was an agenda behind setting her up to be "sweetness and light" so she could be bitchy later on and no one would hate her for it, I think we got to know her more in S3 and S4 as she became a bigger player in the story. 

[Diapason Untuned]

Yup. It's fucking WEIRD. I want to know what's going on behind the scenes now, because why the hell would a useless character like Patty suddenly be written in and given more screentime than Iris? This whole thing has been truly fucked up this season.

I think Patty's a stepping stone for Westallen.

They want to show Barry in a long term relationship with someone to give him some experience before the endgame, as it were.

I think the reason Iris hasn't been shown with Barry as much this season is because the showrunners think the relationship with Patty will pale if he's hanging around Iris a lot.

The biggest issue is that they can't seem to work Iris into the show without Barry around. They've been trying with the Linda scenes and the scenes with her mom, but they need to better.

[Maverick]

Geez Joe, maybe don't snap a your partner like a dog that pooped on the rug when from her perspective you and you're friends are doing something totally illegal.  

 

Oliver's kid keeps popping up here because the mom lives in Central City.  I'm sure (or at least hopeful) the actual plot itself will play out on Arrow.

 

I don't understand introducing Jay.  He hasn't done anything useful and it's just damn odd how he pops in and out.  Almost as bad as Malcolm (although the latter does it with far more style).  And Malcolm knew Savage was in Star City how?  Are they tracking him?  

 

So on average, the Hawks only live 20 years (killed 200 times over 4,000 years)?  Is Savage murdering them in high school every time?  And how do they stay in sync?  If one lives until 70 and the other 30 do they not reincarnate until they've both died?  I guess we're supposed to assume Savage always kills them together and it's a moot point.

[Ruby25]

I think Patty's a stepping stone for Westallen.

They want to show Barry in a long term relationship with someone to give him some experience before the endgame, as it were.

I think the reason Iris hasn't been shown with Barry as much this season is because the showrunners think the relationship with Patty will pale if he's hanging around Iris a lot.

The biggest issue is that they can't seem to work Iris into the show without Barry around. They've been trying with the Linda scenes and the scenes with her mom, but they need to better.

If it's a stepping stone for WestAllen then what's the difference? It's not like anyone's invested in the Barry/Patty thing. If anything, that should be used to prop up Barry/Iris, if it's the endgame, right?

 

I used to think you were right, but the way this has been handled, I'm just worried now that that's wishful thinking. WestAllen doesn't seem to exist this season, and it looks to me like the writers have no use or interest in the Iris character.

[Lady Calypso]

Except she does win - she has all of the damn screen time. Even on The Flash.

And for the men, there is Harry Stu. It's the male version of Mary Sue. So, not sexist. Having a female character who actually does NOTHING wrong as if that's the only way to write women and women don't get angry is what's sexist.

But carry on.

 

I'm going to reply to this in the overall universe thread, since my reply goes into Arrow and The Flash.

 

ETA: And I guess, by the overall universe thread, I mean the one on the Arrow page? It's either that or I'll put it in the Lightning Rod thread on here.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Lady Calypso

[venusnv80]

I don't know if this is comic lore with the Hawks (at least, I don't think so), but it basically sounded like the plot of Hancock to me. 

[phoenics]

She told Oliver that he didn't have any feelings, she told Oliver that he would be happy if Ray died. She was nasty to Oliver for pretty much all of the 6th episode this season. She was a day player in S1, and wasn't a main character in S2 - she basically served the plot for the most part, and was mainly around to be comic relief. I don't think there was an agenda behind setting her up to be "sweetness and light" so she could be bitchy later on and no one would hate her for it, I think we got to know her more in S3 and S4 as she became a bigger player in the story.

I feel like my point is being missed. I think it was that time she had being "fan service" that launched the character. When the show tries to delve deeper, there's backlash. So then they go back to the fan service again.

But I think you're kinda saying what I was saying? That in S1-2 (which is what made the producers decide to bump her up to lead in S3) her fan service character is what won over fans. Not a REAL character. That's all I was getting at.

But since this isn't about Felicity, I'll just stop there. You can take it to the Arrow forum and dissect there if you like - I don't go there, so it might get boring, lol ... :)

[AyChihuahua]

Except she does win - she has all of the damn screen time. Even on The Flash.

And for the men, there is Harry Stu. It's the male version of Mary Sue. So, not sexist. Having a female character who actually does NOTHING wrong as if that's the only way to write women and women don't get angry is what's sexist.

But carry on.

So you're just ignoring all your completely incorrect factual statements, such as that it took two years to show her get angry?  And it's fan service for her to wear tight clothes, but all the other women's clothing is fine.  

 

Having screen time is EBR winning, not Felicity.  And hello exaggeration to say an occasional guest star on The Flash has "all of the damn screen time."  

Edited December 2, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[phoenics]

I don't know if this is comic lore with the Hawks (at least, I don't think so), but it basically sounded like the plot of Hancock to me.

It is hawk lore - but the whole "you don't remember who you are" and "we are drawn to each other" parts felt very "Hancock-ish" to me. Savage being connected to them was a new twist. And Hancock did have the whole "we make each other weak" plot point too. So did Hancock steal from the Hawks or did DC steal from Hancock? I think it was the former... or just a coincidence.

[venusnv80]

It is hawk lore - but the whole "you don't remember who you are" and "we are drawn to each other" parts felt very "Hancock-ish" to me. Savage being connected to them was a new twist. And Hancock did have the whole "we make each other weak" plot point too. So did Hancock steal from the Hawks or did DC steal from Hancock? I think it was the former... or just a coincidence.

I can believe Hancock stole from DC...lol! Ironically, if I wasn't so pissed over Iris tonight--I would have enjoyed the Hawk storyline along with Vandal Savage. Most of the time when I am watching the show, I just want Barry to get pummeled. 

[AyChihuahua]

I can only remember her saying anything mean in S3 onward - not S1-2 as I mentioned in my post. My point was that she was allowed to be "sweetness and light" for two full seasons so that if she finally said something harsh later (you'd have to remind me that she said something harsh in S3 because I don't remember) it wouldn't register much on people's "hate" scale.

Again, she literally yelled at Oliver and stormed out, effectively quitting, her very first day on the job.  Stating otherwise is simply ignoring the reality of the show.  In S2 she, among other things, told Oliver to "get [your] head out of [your] ass."  That is not sweetness and light.

[phoenics]

So you're just ignoring all your completely incorrect factual statements, such as that it took two years to show her get angry?  And it's fan service for her to wear tight clothes, but all the other women's clothing is fine.

I didn't say tight clothes - I said tight, skimpy clothes - clothes with cutouts everywhere. Have we ever seen Felicity in a sweater, lol? I mean - that's been a joke in Arrow fandom forever.

Also - I said very clearly that in S1-2, Felicity was fan service. I tried to be clear on that? I don't understand how I'm being misunderstood. I haven't said anything wrong. One person provided evidence that she was mean in episode 6 of S4 of Arrow and possibly S3 (which I missed and asked for clarification on).

I was focusing on S1-2 and saying that she was a Mary Sue character. When someone mentioned that she was struggling at work (for one episode where she had to work on budget and fire people) I conceded that perhaps she'd grown beyond that there - but still she feels very Mary Sue-ish to me.

You may have missed some of my posts. And I'll say it again - Felicity is largely a Mary Sue character in S1 and S2. S3 they tried to give her more layers and she was bashed - so (I thought) they'd pulled back on that a bit (though maybe not as much, given ep 6 - but I haven't seen that for myself so I would have to do that before taking anyone else's word).

Again - what is sexist is writing women characters as "perfect" because the fandom is so sexist that women aren't allowed to have actual feelings and real, legitimate anger. Laurel was castigated for it - which is when Felicity "rose to power" on Arrow.

That's my view - sorry I just don't agree with your interpretation of Felicity.

Again, she literally yelled at Oliver and stormed out, effectively quitting, her very first day on the job.  Stating otherwise is simply ignoring the reality of the show.  In S2 she, among other things, told Oliver to "get [your] head out of [your] ass."  That is not sweetness and light.

It is when you compare it to Laurel - which the fandom was doing. I made my point poorly - that a lot of the Felicity love seemed to come from fans running to sweetness and light Felicity (which she was pretty much all the time - yelling at a guy to get his head out of his ass isn't dark, angry angst - that's just comic book fluff) and away from dark, angsty Laurel who was rightfully angry at Oliver.

Look - I don't want to fight with you. Can we agree to disagree?

You're not going to change my view of Felicity and until I watch the new season of Arrow, I can't really comment on new stuff. Perhaps I will watch and change my view.

I can believe Hancock stole from DC...lol! Ironically, if I wasn't so pissed over Iris tonight--I would have enjoyed the Hawk storyline along with Vandal Savage. Most of the time when I am watching the show, I just want Barry to get pummeled.

LMBO! When Hawkman came flying at Oliver and Barry I screamed for HIM to kick their @sses! That's how angry I am at these shows.

I never should have come to watch The Flash. I let their casting of CP lure me in and I regret it. I hate being baited and switched.

[venusnv80]

LMBO! When Hawkman came flying at Oliver and Barry I screamed for HIM to kick their @sses! That's how angry I am at these shows.

I never should have come to watch The Flash. I let their casting of CP lure me in and I regret it. I hate being baited and switched.

 

 

That's why I tuned in...for Iris. My experience with The Flash came from the Justice League cartoon and I liked Wally West, but a live action show never interested me until I saw that they cast CP as Iris and Jesse L. Martin were also involved. I went in in disbelief because you know...Bonnie Bennett syndrome and all...and then things were ok for the first half of Season One. Then it went to crap and stayed there. Yes, it was bait and switch and I think they knew what they were doing, but I guess they also didn't know how passionate Iris and CP fans would be. 

[Trini]

Can I assume everyone has that 'Distress Call' app on their phones? Because the damselling on this show is a running joke now. That's actually something useful, and I hope we see it more than once.

[dirtypop90]

Gah felicity and olicity suck. I was quickly reminded why I turned off Arrow. People keep mentioning Patty getting screen time but what did Felicity do that a combo of flash's leading lady Iris  (investigator) and Cisco (tech guy) could not have done? Nada...oh nvm...she did kiss and soothe oliver and that's so important to see...on the flash... :rolls eyes: 

 

I liked hawkgirl and hawkboy although I admit the acting wasn't that strong. They weren't annoying or unlikable which is something.

Well, EBR said in an interview that she doesn't really know Iris and it's clear that Felicity doesn't remember Iris either, so I think it's safe to say that Iris and Felicity won't be hanging out anytime soon.

 

The only woman these writers care about is felicity, the mary sue.  She so wonderful, Patty was created in her image. Iris simply cannot compete! 

 

I think I just need to give up on expecting better.

Edited December 2, 2015 by dirtypop90

[dirtypop90]

I think the reason Iris hasn't been shown with Barry as much this season is because the showrunners think the relationship with Patty will pale if he's hanging around Iris a lot.

 

 

But the thing is Patty and Barry don't even have much of a relationship so I don't know what the audience is getting out of watching them. They went on the typical awkward first date, kissed a few times, but that's it. They don't even have great conversations. These writers have no idea how to write romantic pairings.

 

Plus, patty is given other meaningless story time with Joe that could go to him and his daughter.

Edited December 2, 2015 by dirtypop90

[venusnv80]

But the thing is Patty and Barry don't even have much of a relationship so I don't know what the audience is getting out of watching them. They went on the typical awkward first date, kissed a few times, but that's it. They don't even have great conversations. These writers have no idea how to write romantic pairings.

 

Plus, patty is given other meaningless story time with Joe that could go to him and his daughter.

They barely have conversations. Most of the time Barry acts as if he can't wait to NOT be in her presence. It is the weirdest relationship I have ever witnessed on one of these shows. 

[Trini]

 (It's also a little difficult to understand why you're okay with supergenius telepathic gorillas and not unrealistically fast hacking, but whatever.)

 

It's true, it's a comic book show and a lot of stuff is unrealistic; but Grodd is obviously a fantasy element (of this fantasy show) while hacking is a skill that exists in reality, so it's more difficult to accept 5-second hacking when we already have an idea of how it should work.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Felicity has NEVER been shown dealing with anything REAL in terms of honest to goodness pain and horror like Laurel has.

So her dad leaving her when she was seven, nearly having her head blown off by a bomb, being bait for a serial killer, captured by another serial killer/drug dealer (who nearly killed her), and another serial killer (Slade) who nearly killed her with the blade he held to her neck wasn't honest to goodness pain and horror?  Being blown up on a date was, what, fun?  Believing the man she loved had been killed in a duel was a good time?  Having a guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes choking her to death?  Having the man she loved seemingly turn evil?  All a good Saturday night?

[Ruby25]

They barely have conversations. Most of the time Barry acts as if he can't wait to NOT be in her presence. It is the weirdest relationship I have ever witnessed on one of these shows. 

This is true, which is why part of me thinks this is another thing they feel obligated to do for some reason- that Barry MUST be seen to have had at least one serious, adult relationship before putting him with Iris, so that's why this is happening at all.

 

But the thing is...they're NOT obligated to do this! If they can't come up with something interesting, then just let it go, ffs. It's not that big a deal, is it? If they don't want him to be with Iris right now, okay, Eddie's death is enough of a reason. He doesn't HAVE to be with somebody else, especially if they have to force it like this to the point where no one on the show or in the audience is invested in this "relationship." It's stupid.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ruby25

[AyChihuahua]

It's true, it's a comic book show and a lot of stuff is unrealistic; but Grodd is obviously a fantasy element (of this fantasy show) while hacking is a skill that exists in reality, so it's more difficult to accept 5-second hacking when we already have an idea of how it should work.

Mechanical engineering is also real, but Cisco invented a gun that shoots impossibly cold blasts and a gun that turns people into gold.  Completely impossible, and he made the gold gun in like an afternoon.  Watching her hack realistically would be unbearably boring.  

[BkWurm1]

Patty: the most baffling, unnecessary character on either show right now. Exists to cause problems because she doesn't know the secret, obvious solution is to tell her like they tell everyone else, but then again...why does she need to be on the show in the first place??? This BETTER be done with by the second half of the season, man. I'm getting real sick and tired of Iris basically not existing for a character who has no purpose and no reason to be here.

 

I do watch Flash regularly and I like Patty.  She's good at her job and fun when around Barry.  I am though really upset at how they are keeping her in the dark.  They just unmasked to two strangers (Kendra and Carter) but they won't let the only other person on the Meta Human task force know why she shouldn't shoot Evil Not Dead Wells when he's waving a gun at her?  And to send her away like her Dad scolded her? 

 

Oh and since we are talking about Joe,  - I really like Joe but talk about double standard.  Barry and Patty trying to act professional is super cute but all he could do is give Eddie and Iris the death glare.  Yes, daughter vs son but it's so blatantly sexist.  (Still not over Eddie being allowed to have a say on Iris once she handed off from her father to a potential husband.  Sigh)

 

 

 

Hard to take Savage seriously with that accent.

 

That being said, the character interaction was good.  Particularly Barry and Oliver.  Liked the stuff with Wells and Caitlin too.

 

He's Danish. English is his second language.  I'm guessing that IS his accent. 

 

 

I'm at the point where I'm ready to believe conspiracy theories too. Do they want her on the show or not? And if not, why not? What's going on?

 

Why is the character who is THE most important character besides Barry in the Flash comics getting treated like this? I need an answer.

 

Pretty sure they plan on sidelining her until it's time for her to be LOVE INTEREST!  Not endorsing but they don't know what to do with her in the meantime. 

 

 

Well, EBR said in an interview that she doesn't really know Iris and it's clear that Felicity doesn't remember Iris either, so I think it's safe to say that Iris and Felicity won't be hanging out anytime soon.

Barry is her friend first.  Iris is someone she's met a few times that's nice but kinda broke Barry's heart.  TeamBarry is where Felicity's loyalty lies.  As long as Barry is happy, she's happy. 

 

That said, I would have been SOOOOOOOO much happier if they'd given the Kendra storyline to Iris.  Just let them strike up a friendship.  They had the perfect in.  Kendra is doing Iris's old job.  Bond over that.  Iris needs more friends, let them hang.  Cisco could still met her, crush and vibe on her (shaking her hand - no need to kiss) and then Iris could have been the one hanging with her friend when Savage showed up.  She could have commiserated about her life turning upside down when she lost Eddie and confide about her mom. 

 

Cisco is fun but Cisco and Kendra is like watching a kid drool over his babysitter...just no.  Hell no.  Iris would have been so much of a better choice and then we also could skip the part where two men fight over dibs on Kendra. 

[Diapason Untuned]

But the thing is Patty and Barry don't even have much of a relationship so I don't know what the audience is getting out of watching them. They went on the typical awkward first date, kissed a few times, but that's it. They don't even have great conversations. These writers have no idea how to write romantic pairings.

 

What the audience is supposed to get out of Barry/Patty is Barry getting experience in a relationship.

They go through the motions so that when WestAllen happens, Barry has emotionally matured from the kid who had a crush on her since forever.

[phoenics]

Mechanical engineering is also real, but Cisco invented a gun that shoots impossibly cold blasts and a gun that turns people into gold.  Completely impossible, and he made the gold gun in like an afternoon.  Watching her hack realistically would be unbearably boring.

Good point - though to be fair, I say the same thing about all hackers. It's a pet peeve given my jobs. I still remember yelling in the movie theater at that Hacker from Transformers when she said, "You have to move past Fourier Transfers..."... "It's Fourier Transforms, you twit!"

But good point about Cisco and the gun. For some reason, maybe because it's SO fantastic, I handwavium that and am unable to handwavium the hacking - but this does pre-date Felicity. I used to holler at Chloe a lot on 24 - but she had major flaws and idiosyncrasies that made her interesting to me. I don't want to suggest that there aren't hot women hackers out there somewhere, but... eh. The whole hot blonde, hacker with glasses thing to make her seem "less hot" all while dressing her in ridiculous cut out dresses just rubbed me the wrong way - probably because our careers are in the same field. And we're both women. I was never the geeky nerd and was always outgoing and I like to wear cute tight dresses too - but not in the office and not when I'm "working".

Well whaddyouknow - Patty and her "professionalism" just won out, lol.

What the audience is supposed to get out of Barry/Patty is Barry getting experience in a relationship.

They go through the motions so that when WestAllen happens, Barry has emotionally matured from the kid who had a crush on her since forever.

I also thought it was the whole "How can you know Iris is really the one if you've never been with anyone else?" thing too.

[Ruby25]

What the audience is supposed to get out of Barry/Patty is Barry getting experience in a relationship.

They go through the motions so that when WestAllen happens, Barry has emotionally matured from the kid who had a crush on her since forever.

But again... is this really necessary? There actually are people who end up with just one person in their life (I've known several, actually). This had seemed like the kind of thing they spent a LONG time setting up last year- that she was the only person Barry could ever love, etc. And now they want to just act like that never happened. Or that it didn't exist.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

But...why is this necessary though? I don't understand. There are people who sometimes, you know, end up with just one person in their life (I've known several, actually). This had seemed like the kind of thing they spent a LONG time setting up last year- that she was the only person Barry could ever love, etc. And now they want to just act like that never happened.

Two things:

1. I do agree that it's egregious that they're pretending that it never happened. I think there needs to be SOME reference to it.

2. But I do think it's important to prove to Barry and the audience that it really is Iris for him, thus he has to "explore" as Joe said in order to really KNOW. Plus, it makes him less thirsty. I think this goes back to #1 - this season it would make sense for Iris to catch feelings for Barry, but keep it in. But that apparently won't happen either.

So - ugh - the writers are nuts.

[Trini]

Another moment I liked: Felicity being all "You can't play with the toys!" to Cisco. 'Cause sometimes Cisco is ridiculously territorial, and it was funny to see him on the receiving end of that.

[phoenics]

One more plot point:

At first I thought they were going to let Caitlin have an "accident" while trying to create Velocity 6, but nope. But now I think we know how Zoom might have gotten his powers on E2.

Maybe repeated doses of Velocity 6 turns you into a monster? Who IS under that mask?

[dirtypop90]

What the audience is supposed to get out of Barry/Patty is Barry getting experience in a relationship.

They go through the motions so that when WestAllen happens, Barry has emotionally matured from the kid who had a crush on her since forever.

 

I hear what you're saying but the writers simply telling us Barry and Patty are in a serious, meaningful relationship isn't enough. I don't see Barry and Patty as serious, because their scenes are meaningless, so this doesn't make me view Barry as more "experienced". This relationship could literally be happening completely off screen and the impact on the audience would be the same. IMO This relationship doesn't feel any more real than Barry and Becky Cooper in high school to me. lol So if the plan was to give Barry a serious gf so the audience will feel comfortable with him settling down with Iris next season, they failed, because I don't think people are going to feel any differently about Barry, Iris, or Westallen than they did before Barry/Patty.

Edited December 2, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Guest]

Felicity is clearly not a Mary Sue when she can't even high five properly. Come on now. ;P

 

(Also gross sexist term, no thanks.)

 

As for Iris they could have had her researching Vandal Savage rather than have Malcolm Merlyn pop up randomly to dispense character information. Not sure why they didn't tbh.

[Ruby25]

By the way, I really do wish they had the balls to hook up Caitlin and Wells. That's the only thing I can think now whenever they have scenes together, lol. It would literally be the only thing they could do with Caitlin that would make her interesting to me.

[Trini]

Mechanical engineering is also real, but Cisco invented a gun that shoots impossibly cold blasts and a gun that turns people into gold.  Completely impossible, and he made the gold gun in like an afternoon.  Watching her hack realistically would be unbearably boring.  

 

Dude, we agree. Nobody wants to watch real hacking on TV. I called out making those guns when that episode aired. I was pointing out how it's easier to accept one over the other, from the examples you mentioned. It's all silly.

 

... Like the Arrow crew having lengths of giant chains lying around. Is that standard equipment for them?  :-p

[AyChihuahua]

I usually stay out of this argument, but Candice Patton is fantastic, and deserves better than that they're giving her.

[dirtypop90]

Patty Spivot is straight out of the Flash comics.  She did date Barry.  She did fall in love with him.  She's her own character.  The writers have a problem writing Iris but I don't see how it's the fault of any of the other characters - excuse me - any of the other FEMALE characters. 

 

 

Her personality isn't. When she was casted, she was promoted as Barry's Felicity. And the casting call described her as bright and scientific-minded and actually stated, “Think ‘Felicity Smoak’ from Arrow” http://tvline.com/2015/06/10/the-flash-season-2-barry-new-love-interest-felicity/. 

[Ruby25]

She only dated Barry in the very recent New 52. For the real history she was a loser lab assistant he never looked twice at (because traditionally Iris really is supposed to be the "one and only" for him). And that character by the way, has never had any fans, which is I guess why they felt justified in completely changing her job and personality so that they could integrate her into the plot more (the same courtesy they refused to extend to Iris).

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

It sounds like it's a question of personality preference?  I mean, Felicity gets mad when she's upset but Laurel, she IMO vibrates hostility even when it's unwarranted.  She's ALWAYS angry and on the defensive.  It's exhausting for me as a viewer. And that's more often on the actress and her choices IMO than the script.   I guess I blame Laurel not for her anger, but for her inability to deal with it in a productive manner.

I hear you - I guess I just understood her anger. She lost her sister and Oliver in that accident, knowing that they were cheating on her and that's how they "died". Then Oliver comes back from the dead - without her sister - who is still dead. Oh and the loss of Sara destroys her parents marriage. And then eventually she loses her boyfriend, right after she sleeps with Oliver - and then Sarah came back, the show rewrote history and then ugh.

The show stacked TOO MUCH grief and horribleness on Laurel. The only realistic response was raging, vibrating anger. I'm sorry - but that really is the ONLY response in that situation. I would have put my stiletto in his throat, called my lawyer Analise and asked how I could get away with murder because this fool needs to DIE.

LOL.

They stacked so much horrible mess onto Laurel's shoulders that it would have been unrealistic for her not to break down and be raging, shaking angry 24/7.

[wingster55]

Barry is her friend first.  Iris is someone she's met a few times that's nice but kinda broke Barry's heart.

 

Not kinda...not at all. 

[EmilyBettFan]

Felicity is hardly s Mary Sue. Don't get mad at a character like her who works in different platforms just because your favorites aren't getting lines. Take it up with the Writers if it bothers you so much.

Felicity is integral to the story and has two big important jobs on the show. I'm sorry but I like Iris but what does she actually offer? Same with Laurel. Thea, Oliver and Diggle do just fine withou her. More cohesive.

[Diapason Untuned]

But again... is this really necessary? There actually are people who end up with just one person in their life (I've known several, actually).

Really? You know young people in this day and age who've been in love with one person since childhood, had no other relationship and ended up with that childhood crush?

Two things:1. I do agree that it's egregious that they're pretending that it never happened. I think there needs to be SOME reference to it.

Perhaps they think people already got the message in S1, so they don't need to spend time on it now.

I think this goes back to #1 - this season it would make sense for Iris to catch feelings for Barry, but keep it in. But that apparently won't happen either.So - ugh - the writers are nuts.

You also have to remember that this is a supposed to be a long running show. They probably want to delay WestAllen for as long as possible.

I hear what you're saying but the writers simply telling us Barry and Patty are in a serious, meaningful relationship isn't enough. I don't see Barry and Patty as serious, because their scenes are meaningless, so this doesn't make me view Barry as more "experienced". This relationship could literally be happening completely off screen and the impact on the audience would be the same. IMO This relationship doesn't feel any more real than Barry and Becky Cooper in high school to me. lol So if the plan was to give Barry a serious gf so the audience will feel comfortable with him settling down with Iris next season, they failed, because I don't think people are going to feel any differently about Barry, Iris, or Westallen than they did before Barry/Patty.

Whatever you think of it, the fact is we are seeing Barry in a relationship. Seeing is believing.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Diapason Untuned

[AyChihuahua]

 

The show stacked TOO MUCH grief and horribleness on Laurel. The only realistic response was raging, vibrating anger. I'm sorry - but that really is the ONLY response in that situation. I would have put my stiletto in his throat, called my lawyer Analise and asked how I could get away with murder because this fool needs to DIE.

It'll never make sense that Laurel wants to be in the same room as Oliver, but that's the setup of the show.  And it doesn't make a lot of sense to complain about Laurel having no screentime on Oliver's show and simultaneously point out that she should reasonably want to murder him/never be around him.  The most sensible outcome would be for her to leave the show, because she can't stand to be around him.  That was the case as early as the Pilot.  

 

Also, all that Oliver/Sara drama was a long time ago.  People go through things much, much worse than what Laurel went through and don't just end up vibrating with rage in perpetuity.  People heal and move on, which Laurel mostly has.  

[dirtypop90]

Whatever you think of it, the fact is we are seeing Barry in a relationship. Seeing is believing.

 

My position is we are NOT seeing that. We saw them go on one date and kiss a few times. The only time we saw them outside of work together was that one date.  And we don't even see them talk about anything of importance. How is that seeing Barry in a real relationship? A date and a few kisses doesn't equal a real relationship. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Ruby25]

Really? You know young people in this day and age who've been in love with one person since childhood, had no other relationship and ended up with that childhood crush?

 

Well, not that specifically, but I do know at least four couples who got together in college and neither had ever dated anyone else, and they ended up getting married and having kids. Maybe they'll eventually get divorced someday, but yeah, they had never had other relationships. My point is, Barry could be one of those people (or I guess he could have been, not anymore) that just doesn't date anyone else besides the person they end up with- they do exist.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Felicity is integral to the story and has two big important jobs on the show. I'm sorry but I like Iris but what does she actually offer? Same with Laurel. Thea, Oliver and Diggle do just fine withou her. More cohesive.

Iris is pretty necessary to the Flash mythology and canon. She's pretty integral actually. Wally West? Don and Dawn Allen? BART Allen? Iris being Barry's lightning rod? That actually means something connected to the Speed Force and without it, Barry would simply get lost forever in it and disappear.

If I wanted to watch a show that abandoned its canon and ripped off another superhero, I'd watch Arrow. Felicity and The Dark Knight-lite are what turned me off of Arrow. Green Arrow actually has very little interesting mythology (why they had to steal it from Batman) - which is why I prefer The Flash... and Iris is incredibly important to that mythology and the story of The Flash.

My position is we are NOT seeing that. We saw them go on one date and kiss a few times. The only time we saw them outside of work together was that one date.  And we don't even see them talk about anything of importance. How is that seeing Barry in a real relationship? A date and a few kisses doesn't equal a real relationship.

I think we're meant to equate it with Eddie/Iris from last season - where we never really saw them have deep discussions of any importance.

Edited December 2, 2015 by phoenics

[kismet]

... Like the Arrow crew having lengths of giant chains lying around. Is that standard equipment for them?  :-p

I actually think they do have a lot of chains lying around. I think chains are featured at least monthly on ARROW. And if we don't see the chains they mention the chains. Chains are very important to the Arrow world.

[cynic]

phoenics, I want to give you a standing ovation on your post above. It doesn't matter WHAT Iris' job was, they would have shoehorned into the background. There is absolutely no freaking reason in the world that they could not have her researching or looking through old newspaper articles and coming across Vandal Savage or even Kendra and Carter. This is unacceptable. This is a superhero, supernatural show...they can write for telepathic gorillas, men who can run faster than sound, a shark man, etc., but they can't find a way to write an investigative reporter in the mix? Even when there is a clear blueprint on how to do it? I find that hard to believe. Seriously. 

Agreed. Okay, I wasn't giving the show my full attention. Didn't they have pictures of Savage in previous decades?Where were those from? Couldn't Iris have provided those by pulling up articles from the paper's archives? If there's a certain MO he has for killing the Hawk people, she could have researched him, that way.

 

...

That said, I would have been SOOOOOOOO much happier if they'd given the Kendra storyline to Iris.  Just let them strike up a friendship.  They had the perfect in.  Kendra is doing Iris's old job.  Bond over that.  Iris needs more friends, let them hang.  Cisco could still met her, crush and vibe on her (shaking her hand - no need to kiss) and then Iris could have been the one hanging with her friend when Savage showed up.  She could have commiserated about her life turning upside down when she lost Eddie and confide about her mom. 

 

Cisco is fun but Cisco and Kendra is like watching a kid drool over his babysitter...just no.  Hell no.  Iris would have been so much of a better choice and then we also could skip the part where two men fight over dibs on Kendra. 

 

I really thought they were going to go that way when we saw Kendra working at Jitters. But no, the writers would rather give Cisco another hot girl to flirt badly with. At least this one is a bit ,more believable. I don't buy for a second that Golden Glider would be interested in him.

[EmilyBettFan]

You keep using that combo of words, yet I don't think you understand what a real Mary-Sue is...

BTW "fan service": Oliver idiotic sleeveless suit, Laurel being called Black Canary (just because she share the name with the comic book character), Oliver being called Ollie by Thea and Laurel, him being called the Green Arrow (which just doesn't work well on TV as it does for the comics) - all of these can be called "fan service" for the comic book fans (i'm sure others can muster more); Hack in some way even Sara's death and resurrection was a form of fan service (death for Laurel fans and resurrection for everyone else). EVERYTHING is fan service to a degree... Felicity on Arrow is not, the ep's as well as WB president Peter Roth have said time and time again that Felicity became regular first and foremost because the WB and CW executives took notice of her and EBR chemistry with Amell, and well- just about everyone!, long before a single episode of Arrow aired, and asked for more of her on the show.

Felicity is loved, not because she is fluffy but because she manage to do what Laurel has failed: Humanize Oliver for the audience.

Laurel failed at the vigilante thing because KC is terrible and acting fighting and it shows in the transitions (Also her costume is just terrible! just as much as Oliver's new one is). Laurel Lance is a very complex character and sadly for her KC does not have the acting range and physical ability that was needed to take on such a complex character and make her real to the audience.

I agree with this so much. I'm so tired of this Mary Sue business. Edited December 2, 2015 by EmilyBettFan