S04.E07: Brotherhood

[Guest]

I have to admit I'm a bit confused by the whole Ghost thing. If that tooth they pulled had half the genetic markers or whatever, technically they're not even human anymore. Back in 403 Felicity made a point of saying they should be goo and it's not possible. So does that mean they're not really even alive? And does that also mean that, technically, Andy is actually dead? And how much of Andy is really still Andy? 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

I have to admit I'm a bit confused by the whole Ghost thing. If that tooth they pulled had half the genetic markers or whatever, technically they're not even human anymore. Back in 403 Felicity made a point of saying they should be goo and it's not possible. So does that mean they're not really even alive? And does that also mean that, technically, Andy is actually dead? And how much of Andy is really still Andy? 

 

I thought the answer to that was that Darhk was just scrambling the DNA so they couldn't be identified?

[Guest]

I thought the answer to that was that Darhk was just scrambling the DNA so they couldn't be identified?

 

Was he? I must have blanked out on that. So these Ghosts are just normal people willingly taking a pill to be mind controlled. Uh…okay then.

[AyChihuahua]

Looking at comments on some of the positive reviews...it seems the commenters generally don't like the directing stuff, while reviewers did.  Because viewers think the shaky cam stuff is nauseating, while reviewers see the technical work behind the scenes, maybe? 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think Diggle is great, but...yeah, I don't think I've ever really enjoyed any of the episodes that have been promoted as his.  This one, the Suicide Squad one, and I think there was another one early on in season 3?  Meh.

 

I find it unfortunate that Bam-Bam is getting so much positive feedback from the media regarding his directorial debut, because it probably means we'll see him direct another episode at some point in the future.  I would tell him to stick to his day job, but I don't even think he's so great at that, either.

 

When they showed all of those yellow pills, I thought of the fish oil pills over on SHIELD, ha.  Actually, a SHIELD/Arrow crossover would be pretty cool.  I'd love to see GA team up with Mockingbird.  Outside of Sara, she's who I think of when I envision what BC should have been.

 

As others have mentioned, Laurel really has nothing going on.  Is she just going to be in a holding pattern until Arrow starts up again after the midseason break?  I have no idea (and no, I still don't think she's gonna die next year).

[Guest]

I think Diggle is great, but...yeah, I don't think I've ever really enjoyed any of the episodes that have been promoted as his.  This one, the Suicide Squad one, and I think there was another one early on in season 3?  Meh.

 

I think this episode was the best one of all the Diggle episodes. I didn't really enjoy the Suicide Squad one but at least DR got to really act in this one and we learned about him. I'll always choose learning about a character over style/action.

 

 

As others have mentioned, Laurel really has nothing going on.  Is she just going to be in a holding pattern until Arrow starts up again after the midseason break?  I have no idea (and no, I still don't think she's gonna die next year).

 

IMO I think they might have realized that Laurel works better in small doses. Insert her into a scene here and there where she doesn't have much to do and she's fine. Give her too much focus and she becomes too…Laurel…like the whole arc with resurrecting Sara. So that's why I don't think she has a storyline this year. She'll just become part of everyone else's when needed.  Fine by me. Then I don't have to pay attention to her.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Guest

[calliope1975]

I guess, though, that I am a little disappointed that, for a Diggle episode, I ended up not caring very much about Diggle's storyline. I'm not sure that's ever happened before. Perhaps if we hadn't known that Andy was alive? I don't know. But somehow I was having a hard time making myself care about that part of the story.

 

This is how I feel as well. David Ramsey killed it, but I think the actual story didn't connect with me because this is the umpteenth returned from the dead character. Find a new plot. 

[Guest]

This is how I feel as well. David Ramsey killed it, but I think the actual story didn't connect with me because this is the umpteenth returned from the dead character. Find a new plot. 

 

It maybe would have worked a bit better if a) Sara and Ray weren't bought back in the episodes previously (curse the LoT set-up once again!) and b) the CW hadn't spoiled Andy being alive in the damn promo. WTF. That was so dumb. Even though people did guess, it was still up in the air whether he was alive or not.

[Orion]

There was some really bizarre camera angles that kept pulling me out of the story in that episode. 

 

In the scene where Diggle unmasks Andy the camera was almost parallel to Andy laying on the floor and you could look right up the actor's nostrils. Instead of being able to focus on Diggles reaction (which his silly mask mostly hid) I was focusing on that.

 

The Laurel and DIggle scene at the bar David Ramsey was emoting beautifully and my heart was breaking for Diggle and than the camera started cutting back and forth from a close up of him, to a longer shot of Laurel and Diggle, to a mid range shot, back to a close up on Diggle. I couldn't enjoy the emotion because I kept wondering if something was happening in the background that I was suppose to be paying attention to. That scene should have been shot like Oliver and Felicity's dinner date. Let the actor do the work and leave the camera alone. DR is good enough to not need all those cuts.

 

There were also really long transition shots where the camera would slowly pan to a light and then dissolve to another scene. The one where the camera pushed in on Felicity's purple sweater only to pull back on someone on the island wearing the same color (even though almost every single person on that island is wearing camo) was really silly.

 

I know that the show is basically taking the approach that the Felicity and Diggle friendship is believed in enough by the audience that they don't have to show it and they can just reference that these talks are happening off screen but I want the damn scenes.

 

The gala was weirdly short and I want to say useless. Why would they waste all that money and all those extras for those few scenes? Also Oliver had the shortest speech I have ever seen at any political function. The DJ at those types of events normally has more to say than that.

 

Show I remember Season One, I've watched it numerous times, I remember when Diggle said a solider never leaves a brother behind. Even if you want me to believe that Diggle now hates his brother for what he did, I am never going to believe that Diggle would just shrug his shoulders and leave Andy with DD.  Sorry, no.

 

They need to do better for both David Ramsey and Diggle.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Orion

[calliope1975]

P.P.S.  I guess we're still supposed to believe that TA did not kill anyone in this episode?

 

There was one guy that had an exploding arrow in his chest. I'm pretty sure that would have blown his chest cavity open. I know he's a bad guy, and I don't care, but TPTB needs to stop with the no one was killed party line.

[apinknightmare]

I think this episode was the best one of all the Diggle episodes. I didn't really enjoy the Suicide Squad one but at least DR got to really act in this one and we learned about him. I'll always choose learning about a character over style/action.

 

I love Diggle so much, but I haven't cared for a single one of his featured episodes. I think it's because his eps seem to focus on parts of the show that aren't my favorite - I don't care about combat, and I don't care about the Suicide Squad. When it's Digg's turn in the ep rotation, it usually has a stunt/fighting focus, and doesn't delve too deep into his actual character. 

[dtissagirl]

Looking at comments on some of the positive reviews...it seems the commenters generally don't like the directing stuff, while reviewers did.  Because viewers think the shaky cam stuff is nauseating, while reviewers see the technical work behind the scenes, maybe? 

 

I see the technical work behind the scenes, because this is my formal education and all, and I thought this episode was written to service the stunt sequences more than usual.

 

I mean, Arrow does this every week since the pilot. There's one or two action/fight scenes that are the pinnacle of the episode. They're the most expensive scenes, and they write the show with the intention to move the plot towards those scenes. This episode had more action scenes than usual, so MORE of the writing had to service them. You have to get the characters to the point where punches are necessary so that they can punch people.

 

As for the technical aspect of the stunt sequences themselves, I think there were two things going for them that felt weird --

 

1. The use of the POV camera super close to the fighting, which the show hasn't really done before. The way they broke the stunt sequences really felt like video game, because they put the steadycam operator on the "role" of the audience being brought into the action. It might have felt jarring for so many people simply because this is not the regular style Arrow uses.

 

2. As a consequence, it felt like the camera work was more apparent than the stunts themselves. Film [and TV] is a language that our brains learn to interpret. There's a whole bunch of super boring theory that goes with it, but the main idea behind classical narrative structure in film is that you're not supposed to notice anything but the story itself. In this case, because you ARE noticing the camera work, it means your brain is looking at this not as a story, but as a TV show that uses a camera to film the story. Which is also jarring.

Edited November 19, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Delphi]

Does Digg really have a vow not to kill like Oliver dies, though? I know it's a big deal to Oliver, but Digg is a veteran, I'm not sure killing weighs as heavy on him or Lyla.

[AyChihuahua]

In the scene where Diggle unmasks Andy the camera was almost parallel to Andy laying on the floor and you could look right up the actor's nostrils. Instead of being able to focus on Diggles reaction (which his silly mask mostly hid) I was focusing on that.

That's an excellent example.  The whole episode was full of scenes like that.  I guess Bam Bam was trying to be all arty, but he doesn't have the technical or especially artistic skill to back it up, so it was all just weird and distracting and really, really visible.  Directing is usually pretty invisible to me, but it's all I could see in this episode.

[Guest]

I love Diggle so much, but I haven't cared for a single one of his featured episodes. I think it's because his eps seem to focus on parts of the show that aren't my favorite - I don't care about combat, and I don't care about the Suicide Squad. When it's Digg's turn in the ep rotation, it usually has a stunt/fighting focus, and doesn't delve too deep into his actual character. 

 

I agree. But I do also think this was the better of the 'Diggle' episodes, even if it wasn't the best. Either way I'm just glad DR is getting a chance to do something other than stand around in the background like previous seasons.

[apinknightmare]

I agree. But I do also think this was the better of the 'Diggle' episodes, even if it wasn't the best. Either way I'm just glad DR is getting a chance to do something other than stand around in the background like previous seasons.

 

Yeah, it was the best out of all of them, but I still didn't think it was all that great. Mainly because I just didn't understand where Diggle was coming from wanting Andy to stay with Darhk/HIVE.

[kirkola]

Yea I am trying to ignore the stuff with Ray and his "I don't want to come back from the dead" spiel because it really doesn't make any sense.  I would buy some version of "Felicity, I believe in you - you are going to save the company, not me.  I had already realized I was too obsessed with the suit and not running the business before I blew myself up.  I knew I belonged in R&D and I wanted you to take over - that's why I drew up those papers.  Nothing has changed."

 

or

 

"Felicity, after my fiancé died, I threw myself into building this suit - even acquiring Oliver's company and recruiting you to work for me was all about the suit.  I'm not the right person to head the company and I need to find a new reason for being.  And I couldn't have picked a better person to run the company for me - you are amazing and I know you can do it."

 

or

 

"Darkh wants this suit and if I come back from the dead, he's going to come after me and the suit.  I need to disappear for awhile so that whatever it is he wants - he can't get it.  And I need some time to process.  I'm going to take off for awhile.  After all, if Oliver can be dead for five years, me staying dead a few more months won't hurt.  And Felicity, you'll be great - you really are the best woman for the job.  I always knew that."

 

Or some combination of the above.

 

However, I do think they are writing Ray well now and BR is selling this stuff with as much humble sincerity as he can.  I still look forward to seeing him on the spin-off.

 

BR is a good actor, he was just handed some weird directions in Season 3.  Ray as a stalker was really strange, but looking back on it, I suspect it was a manifestation of his hyper-focus on getting the suit.  He need Felicity for that to happen, so Felicity became a hyper-focused goal.  There was some interesting chemistry in his first episode with Felicity, and while the whole Felicity-Ray hook up was distasteful to Ollicity, I can understand why Felicity might have been drawn to someone who pays attention to her, even if that attention is hyper-focused (and bordering on creepy). But Felicity was always destined to leave him for Oliver.

 

Ray's attempts at comedy were just weird.  I've seen BR do comedy...he's naturally quite funny.  But the writing wasn't right for those comedic moments. 

 

It's like the writers get so proud of themselves for getting one part of the story right, that they forget that the rest doesn't flow naturally.  I mean, Ray could have said any number of things better than he did.  And I can fan wank that maybe Thea was tired after her Andy fight and needed assistance, but somehow Laurel is the only strong person nearby to help lift Andy?  There were three weightlifting men there, one with a super suit.  It would have made more sense for someone to just say "Atom got him and is flying him to the lair".

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Gives Its Costumes A Workout
The fight-to-plot ratio is somewhat skewed this week as Team Arrow invades multiple secret headquarters.

[EmilyBettFan]

I know I am the only one that watches the flashbacks ~

But did anybody else find OQ facial reactions during the Poppy scenes when he revealed that he killed her brother odd? He looked like he couldn't wait to leave and not because he felt bad - but because he couldn't take her crying like it annoyed him. Perhaps it annoyed SA, I don't know. I was expecting just a little remorse, guilt or something. Instead it was like he was counting the secs down until it was over. He was phoning in most of that cave scene.

Kudos to the show for finally saying Poppy's name. Shame it only took them 7 episodes.

Yes I had the same reaction. He looked definitely bored by the storyline and her.

[kirkola]

Is it possible that in the FB, that the Head Guy (with magic sticks) knows that Oliver is a plant, but figures he'll just use Oliver to find whatever mystical macguffin is lost?  I mean, from Head Guy's point of view, a random stranger shows up, claims to know the island intimately, and immediately 2 guards die from stepping on landmines.  Head Guy not only accepts Oliver's story, but offers him a position as guard.  Then Head Guy conveniently ignores the easy-to-find laptop evidence that outright admits that there is a plant in the Bad Guy Organization.  Now Head Guy is waving magic truth sticks in front of his #1 minion (who ought to have proven his loyalty already) and Oliver, but only manages to ask Oliver the one question he can answer honestly (did you kill the dead guy?).  Seriously any other question and Oliver would have had to lie.  Also, where were the magic truth sticks when the laptop was found and Head Guy needed to interrogate Oliver & #1 minion? 

 

And I don't understand how the Bad Guy Organization can see the workers as unimportant, except for the dead guy who happens to be Tatiana/Poppy's brother.  Why is his life worth more to the organization than hers?  They had no problem telling Oliver to off Tatiana/Poppy.  Now that brother is dead, though, we've got to drag out the magic truth sticks and whip #1 minion (but not kill him?)

 

It all just seems pointless, unless Head Guy knows Oliver is a plant, but figures he can use Oliver for some secret purposes (macguffin finding) and just forgot to tell his #1 minion to leave it all alone.

[kismet]

Yeah, that was another problem with that bit - it came off as "Well, I'm too good to be doing that, but it's fine for you." Not to mention that last season he was all "We're going to be friends. That's not negotiable." And here's Felicity, asking him to help not just her, but all of the other QC/PT employees who will lose their jobs if she can't turn things around in what is now just four more months, and he's all, not feeling it! I need a purpose!

 

Had that included even one line of - "I gave the company to you because I knew you could make it succeed," it might have gone over better, but as it is, I can only handwave it because it was basically a "I am heading off to another show to go hero and your show needs some way to pay for all of the motorcycles, so, let's deal" speech, not a "huh, that makes a lot of sense" speech or "well, at least I get where he's coming from" speech.

Now that you mention it.... to me it proves again another reason why OQ is the better choice for FS. Because the 2 times the company was in dire straights, OQ made an effort with FS's encouragement to try to do what is right by the company & its employees. He may have had additional rationale. But she mentioned the other employees in both her pleas which I think OQ did hear and in a way influenced his decision. They are on a similar wavelength with similar priorities. Even in the beginning of the season when FS struggled with how to save the company he provided her encouragement and that she would find another way. He didn't just allow her to walk away or become discouraged. She took his advice and support, and did something positive with it to help attempt to turn the company around.

 

To me it shows that they both prioritize other people and on a scale lean more towards selfless as opposed to selfish. To me RP has and will always be more selfish. Just like LL, the reason they got into vigilantism and helping others was all about them. It was never really about helping people, that is a by product. It was about them working through their grief and not being vulnerable anymore. It doesn't make them horrible people, but it shows a fundamental difference in how FS & OQ vs. LL & RP think and prioritize stuff. Even in this episode OQ was willing to sacrifice himself as an option on the table, whereas RP had to be asked nicely to even help them out. And then only really helped because he was bored and it gave him something to do. So it didn't surprise me that he is so quick to quit the company and so egotistical that he doesn't realize that his conversation with FS over the reasons behind it were a little douche. To me is was Classic RP.

[kismet]

i was too. i was in a weird mood last night and the sarcasm was overflowing at my house and here. Sorry.

No problem. :) I really think we need a sarcasm icon or emoji. Sometimes you think you type something sarcastically enough that it translates, but then it doesn't. So sorry for my part as well.

[AyChihuahua]

I enjoy that apparently Vlad didn't give a crap about Oliver "killing" Poppy. 

[nksarmi]

Ok so on the Andy front - I know other people have commented on the whole "what if he's a plant to find the location of your secret lair?" thing, but also.....I think they have pretty much broadcasted the Andy is a super, secret ARGUS agent or something at this point, haven't they?

 

I mean, they have shown us these guys are under absolute mind control but somehow Andy didn't kill Diggle earlier this season (which Felicity pointed out to the audience who missed it this episode) and he's in enough control to give orders and say things like "kill the green one."

 

Also - and I know this could be he's doing retcon for DD, but honestly DD doesn't seem like the retcon type - he didn't use his cyanide tooth at any point from when Laurel captured him (she could have knocked him out with the Canary Cry - I will go with that) to when he came through in the prison cell in the lair to when Diggle confronted him.

 

Plus, they seriously have to be doing all this "he had a criminal enterprise" crap and have Diggle lose faith in his brother, just to give us either some really good excuse why he turned bad (he was protecting his wife and son somehow) or they'll vindicate him completely by saying he's working for ARGUS.  I just don't believe for a minute they revealed he was running a criminal enterprise and faked his death/got recruited by HIVE for that to be the end of it.  Plus Oliver hit the nail over the head pretty hard this episode that sometimes people are under cover.

 

So yea, Andy's a good guy and he's going to die to save his brother by the end of the season.  I will be pleasantly surprised if he's allowed to live, return to his family, and live out his life in some kind of super secret witness protection. 

 

I want to think that it's also possible that these "ghosts" are somehow reanimated dead because of DD's little "they call you ghosts.  they don't know how right they are" line.  But I'm not coming up with a good way that could be true.

 

I have to admit that it's official.  Even though I hate him, I think I'm going to enjoy Malcolm this season.  The most interesting thing that happened in the episode centered around DD knowing that Malcolm is Ra's, Malcolm showing up in town to see Thea and try to get her to kill a pedophile (does it make me a bad person that I thought his logic was just fine in that instance?), and the new fact that when DD touches Thea - it doesn't something painful to him and helps her.  Damn it.   I so wanted to just hate Malcolm, but now I'm looking forward to the magical hijinks of Thea and her crazy, psycho dad.

[Guest]

Ok so on the Andy front - I know other people have commented on the whole "what if he's a plant to find the location of your secret lair?" thing, but also.....I think they have pretty much broadcasted the Andy is a super, secret ARGUS agent or something at this point, haven't they?

 

I mean, they have shown us these guys are under absolute mind control but somehow Andy didn't kill Diggle earlier this season (which Felicity pointed out to the audience who missed it this episode) and he's in enough control to give orders and say things like "kill the green one."

 

Also - and I know this could be he's doing retcon for DD, but honestly DD doesn't seem like the retcon type - he didn't use his cyanide tooth at any point from when Laurel captured him (she could have knocked him out with the Canary Cry - I will go with that) to when he came through in the prison cell in the lair to when Diggle confronted him.

 

Plus, they seriously have to be doing all this "he had a criminal enterprise" crap and have Diggle lose faith in his brother, just to give us either some really good excuse why he turned bad (he was protecting his wife and son somehow) or they'll vindicate him completely by saying he's working for ARGUS.  I just don't believe for a minute they revealed he was running a criminal enterprise and faked his death/got recruited by HIVE for that to be the end of it.  Plus Oliver hit the nail over the head pretty hard this episode that sometimes people are under cover.

 

So yea, Andy's a good guy and he's going to die to save his brother by the end of the season.  I will be pleasantly surprised if he's allowed to live, return to his family, and live out his life in some kind of super secret witness protection. 

 

I like the idea of Andy being a secret ARGUS agent. That makes sense to me, especially because, as you said, some things don't add up. He didn't kill Diggle when he had the chance. He didn't take his secret cyanide pill to kill himself when he was captured. And he's giving orders. There's definitely more going on than meets the eye.

[statsgirl]

This would have been the episode to have Diggle flashbacks instead of island ones.  The island fbs served no purpose this episode and they're pulling the show down this season. Maybe if they would tighten them up i.e. fewer and more storytelling in each, they wouldn't drag the show down so much.

 

They should have put Diggle ones here and saved the Lian Yu ones for next episode.

 

 

But did anybody else find OQ facial reactions during the Poppy scenes when he revealed that he killed her brother odd? He looked like he couldn't wait to leave and not because he felt bad - but because he couldn't take her crying like it annoyed him.

First indication of Cold-Blooded Killer we've had this season?

Too bad SA countered it by looking like he felt bad for killing Poppy's brother.

1. Not using Lyla better. Come on! Although I liked her new hair cut and the fact that he costume department put her in the sae sweater she was wearing when Oliver kidnapped her for their first meeting since then. Nice one.

I think that's more a lack of money for wardrobe than pre-planning.

If it were me, I would have burned the clothes I was kidnapped in.

 

The secret elevator has no purpose, it's not like anyone can use it while all those interns are there.

Seriously. It's the stupidest thing to have it right out there in the open. Even the secret elevator at Palmer Tech looked like it was part of a wall.  Bad planning, Sebastian.

 

 I liked the Hong Kong flashbacks well enough because I cared about the characters.  I mean yes it was painful that somehow Oliver wasn't mastering Mandarin in them because supposedly he could speak it like a native in season one - but I don't think most people even remember that.  Anyway, Waller had more of a presence in season three and I understood Oliver's purpose in the flashbacks.  I don't have a freaking clue what he's doing on that island now and neither does he!

I feel kind of stupid that it took me till this season to realize that the reason Oliver couldn't speak the language in Hong Kong is that Shado taught him Mandarin and they speak Cantonese in Hong Kong.

[Guest]

I just remembered that SA tweeted about the night they filmed the gala and it was the most extras they'd ever used or something and now all I can think is what a waste of money that was. Seriously, that gala and their fancy outfits was a whole load of nothing.

[arjumand]

I enjoy that apparently Vlad didn't give a crap about Oliver "killing" Poppy. 

 

At first I was thinking, what, they didn't decide until this very episode that Vlad was Poppy's brother? And then I said, no come on, surely not. This was part of the plan, so that you can have it as a DUN DUN DUNNNN moment when Oliver realises what he's done.

 

But in order to make it a moment, you have to delay the reveal. And keep delaying it, because it's entirely reasonable that Conklin told Vlad that Oliver killed his sister, and that's why he attacked Oliver. But you can't have that happen onscreen, because then you won't have the REVEAL. And so you have people acting in ways that are ridiculous - I mean, there's a rumour mill among the workers. And Poppy knew within one episode who Oliver was. So there would have been so many people ready to tell Vlad that his sister was last seen walking off to the forest with Oliver.

 

And since when can't Oliver take a man down without killing him?

 

This is such lazy writing. And it makes me sad.

 

ETA Or maybe they're not brother and sister after all, and it was Vlad's idea so he could protect her, as he was important to Baron Reiter in some way? See, when I saw the title of the episode, 'Brotherhood', I immediately thought of the Bratva (which means brotherhood), before I realised this was all about the Diggle siblings. I thought Poppy was going to be the connection, because she was connected.

Edited November 19, 2015 by arjumand

[looptab]

Well, the elevator is still in Oliver's office, I think, but I don't think it would be wuse yo disappear through that when there's people in the other room. Who knows, it's cool.

[Actionmage]

And when Thea was telling Malcolm about Dark, I didn't see his reaction as one of "Hey, maybe this can help Thea" but rather "Oh crap, Damien Dark?"

 

I read it as Malcolm, about to go back to Nanda on the red-eye when Dark's name was dropped. It was a mix of "Shit!", "That ass! messing with my daughter!" and "Tell me more, tell me more!" I thought I saw a slight hop over the arm of the couch, but that was probably me. He all but asked he if could sleep over and make popcorn so Thea would elaborate, in my opinion. Yes, Malcolm would no doubt love to work against Damien, and he'd probably also love to eff up the city he blames for killing his wife. But? Damien put hands on Thea, but Thea came out better. That intrigues Malcolm. That is a scary way for Malcolm to be.  Like Ray, Malcolm can be obsessive ( understatement, I know.) Mal, though, is tenacious when it comes to figuring out how something can benefit him and how to maximize that potential.

 

There was one guy that had an exploding arrow in his chest. I'm pretty sure that would have blown his chest cavity open.

 

It was a flashbang arrow, not an explosive. The shot lingered as the immediate smoke cleared to show the other Ghosts knocked out, but the guy  with the arrow was physically fine too. As fine as you can be with an arrow in your chest/Kevlar.

Even if you want me to believe that Diggle now hates his brother for what he did, I am never going to believe that Diggle would just shrug his shoulders and leave Andy with DD.  Sorry, no.

 

They need to do better for both David Ramsey and Diggle.

 

Preach.

 

If that tooth they pulled had half the genetic markers or whatever, technically they're not even human anymore.

 

My take on the DNA scramble is: it is part chemical and part mystical. That the pill can degrade DNA if certain circumstances arise, like a tooth taken from it's living body or skin cells ( for fingerprints/ DNA swabs). 

 

Like a poster upthread noted, Andy's more than likely still under the effects of eight years of this stuff. A couple of hours staring at the bars isn't going to show Andy's real self anymore than a mirror. The pills affect the mind, can scramble DNA, and, due to the nature of the flashbacks, probably have some sort of addicting property so that the Ghosts will continue to take this crap. I think the ghosts are still human, but that Dark is trying his best to encourage that thinking by the very human erasing of all records of these guys' existence. ( What Lance and Diggle did a couple of episodes back.) 

 

The short answer as to what's in the little yellow pills is Magic!

[Happy Harpy]

Late to the party, although a party is supposed to be fun, isn't it? This episode wasn't...

 

Except for Oliver/Felicity. They are perfectly written, like they could have been, would have been written last year and I'm trying not to think about it because this wasted time angers me. They are the best thing about the show right now, for me. Their interactions are so natural, and I love how they support each other.

Also, I love that Oliver is consistent in his belief that family comes first, and that you don't know about people's reasons so you don't judge them easily. Oliver also hid that he was alive from his family, he even came back in StarLING City and he had his reasons for it. Coherence is so rare.

 

Thea is great and she was free of Laurel! Am I crying over a "No means yes" asshole? Let me think...I don't have LP-induced bloodlust but the guy would have ended in the same state if it were me -I would have gone Basic Instincts with my high heels on his feet, at least.

Alex is meh, I just like him when he tells Oliver to ditch Laurel -yep, biased. Also biased because I loved Roy/Thea, but for now Alex doesn't compare as a character (I admit it's still early) and the actor has less charisma and less chemistry with W.Holland than C.Haynes, imo.

If Thea has to have a love interest, which is less of a problem for me now that she has her own storyline, obviously as Darhk's kryptonite, I'd rather have Constantine back for her. Because he'd call her "love" (found an edit!) and she'd roll her eyes and it would be so cute.

 

Clark from Bones is Andy Diggle? I thought that Diggle was the younger one, but it's probably a head canon. It's quite funny, meta-wise, that Diggle is as unyielding as Clark was on Bones. But I agree, the umpteeth resurrection made the storyline lose most of its power, in spite of D.Ramsey's tremendous talent.

Moreover, for me, they ruined Diggle emotional moment on Laurel, because once more I felt it was about servicing her character by pretending she's Diggle new BFF, and absolving her of her resurrection related asshatery, and less about John Diggle, his backstory and his feelings.

Moreover, it was like a flashback to S1, when S.Amell acted his ass off in order to get something out of the Laurel/Oliver scenes, except it was D.Ramsey acting is ass off in front of a cardboard (YMMV) plus it was  Diggle's big scene and he has precious few of these, unlike the star of the show.

 

When/how can we get Diggle/Felicity scenes? I guess, when the writers stop writing Laurel as his confidante in her place. If she isn't the one in the grave, I guess there's no "when" or "how".

When the team talked about infiltrating a looney bin, was I the only one who thought that they could use Laurel, because she totally belongs there?

, it's so funny that you mentioned the Lion King hyenas, because that's exactly what came to my mind during the opening scene. I was wondering whether the metahuman of the week was a were-hyena or something, and it was the Canary Cry.

 

I begin to believe that Ray suffered as much from S3 and the forced romance and triangle as Felicity and Oliver did. Except I didn't know him before. Seriously, after the Oliver/Laurel disaster (YMMV) the writers imo should have known better. Color me shocked, I found him tolerable. 

I come to think that Sara was lucky to be introduced as an ex, not a current LI for Oliver,  and could be fully established and fleshed-out as her own character. Maybe, if Felicity/Ray had been established as platonic friends -therefore, without the 50 Shades thing- and had the nonsense equivalent of the lunge in 3B (imo, and IIRC the intended was Isabel, so well) maybe Ray would have been more popular and TPTB would have gotten their ATOM show.

 

I don't have anything against the Poppy actress, or the Reiter actor, but bring back at least Anatoly because the only positive I find about the flashback is no Laurel.

 

Edit: sorry, fever and trying to write not too broken English don't mesh well.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[AyChihuahua]

But in order to make it a moment, you have to delay the reveal. And keep delaying it, because it's entirely reasonable that Conklin told Vlad that Oliver killed his sister, and that's why he attacked Oliver. But you can't have that happen onscreen, because then you won't have the REVEAL. And so you have people acting in ways that are ridiculous - I mean, there's a rumour mill among the workers. And Poppy knew within one episode who Oliver was. So there would have been so many people ready to tell Vlad that his sister was last seen walking off to the forest with Oliver.

And not just walking off for a stroll.  I mean, there was a whole big drama with the drug theft and Conklin shooting the one guy and Oliver torturing the other guy and then Poppy publicly saying she did it.  If the show expects me to believe that after all that the slaves think Oliver (plus another soldier) were just taking Poppy for a nice stroll in the woods that for some strange but non-nefarious reason she hasn't yet returned from, well, show, NO.  And then Vlad NEVER says anything about the new guard guy (who is very recognizable for many reasons, including that per Poppy the guards are all very tight with each other and don't have new people cycling in, unlike Fyers' operation), even when Vlad's spouting off about how he needs a break before digging up whatever they're supposed to dig up?  NO.

 

I'm thinking more and more that they've made a huge mistake giving Thea an LI instead of Laurel.  Assuming Laurel's not the one in the grave, she's now got basically nothing, but Thea just added YET ANOTHER storyline with whatever's going on with her and Damien and Malcolm.  Now, I think Willa Holland is one of the best things about this season and she's handling it really well, but she's got plenty going on without a love interest, plus I agree with the general consensus that her LI is a bit of a fail (sorry dude, I've really liked you in other things but not feeling you on Arrow).  They really, really should have given Laurel a love interest, someone with whom KC really pops.

Edited November 19, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[nksarmi]

I feel kind of stupid that it took me till this season to realize that the reason Oliver couldn't speak the language in Hong Kong is that Shado taught him Mandarin and they speak Cantonese in Hong Kong.

 

That's interesting but I'm not sure it works for me as an explanation.  I never seemed to me that Shado taught him enough to "speak it like a native" and I've been told time and time again that to master a language, you have to be submersed in the culture (which is my excuse to why my French remained elementary at best despite taking French classes in high school and college). 

 

So while I know that Hong Kong can in fact be a very English-speaking city (I knew someone who was born and raised in Hong Kong and speaks English almost without an accent but can't speak Chinese), I still figured he HAD to master his language skills while there for a year.  Plus I looked it up and while Cantonese is the official language of Hong Kong - Mandarin is still spoken there so IF Oliver had learned enough from Shado for his season one proficiency, he could have tried Mandarin when his English failed him.  Instead he just says repeatedly - I don't speak Chinese.  It still bugs me. :)

[AyChihuahua]

That's interesting but I'm not sure it works for me as an explanation.  I never seemed to me that Shado taught him enough to "speak it like a native" and I've been told time and time again that to master a language, you have to be submersed in the culture (which is my excuse to why my French remained elementary at best despite taking French classes in high school and college). 

 

So while I know that Hong Kong can in fact be a very English-speaking city (I knew someone who was born and raised in Hong Kong and speaks English almost without an accent but can't speak Chinese), I still figured he HAD to master his language skills while there for a year.  Plus I looked it up and while Cantonese is the official language of Hong Kong - Mandarin is still spoken there so IF Oliver had learned enough from Shado for his season one proficiency, he could have tried Mandarin when his English failed him.  Instead he just says repeatedly - I don't speak Chinese.  It still bugs me. :)

Guggie answered a Tumblr ask about that, and he had no idea that canonically Oliver speaks Mandarin perfectly.  He completely forgot and didn't even remember when the questioner reminded him of that episode/scene.

[Starfish35]

I have to admit that it's official. Even though I hate him, I think I'm going to enjoy Malcolm this season. The most interesting thing that happened in the episode centered around DD knowing that Malcolm is Ra's, Malcolm showing up in town to see Thea and try to get her to kill a pedophile (does it make me a bad person that I thought his logic was just fine in that instance?), and the new fact that when DD touches Thea - it doesn't something painful to him and helps her. Damn it. I so wanted to just hate Malcolm, but now I'm looking forward to the magical hijinks of Thea and her crazy, psycho dad.

Same here. That and wondering just when DD is going to spring the trap he laid for Quentin.

I read it as Malcolm, about to go back to Nanda on the red-eye when Dark's name was dropped. It was a mix of "Shit!", "That ass! messing with my daughter!" and "Tell me more, tell me more!" I thought I saw a slight hop over the arm of the couch, but that was probably me. He all but asked he if could sleep over and make popcorn so Thea would elaborate, in my opinion. Yes, Malcolm would no doubt love to work against Damien, and he'd probably also love to eff up the city he blames for killing his wife. But? Damien put hands on Thea, but Thea came out better. That intrigues Malcolm. That is a scary way for Malcolm to be. Like Ray, Malcolm can be obsessive ( understatement, I know.) Mal, though, is tenacious when it comes to figuring out how something can benefit him and how to maximize that potential.

Yeah, I think this is accurate.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

I just remembered that SA tweeted about the night they filmed the gala and it was the most extras they'd ever used or something and now all I can think is what a waste of money that was. Seriously, that gala and their fancy outfits was a whole load of nothing.

Do we wonder if perhaps they shot additional gala scenes that they will then use in the Holiday party? Perhaps they used the extras for some of shots while they had them on the payroll?

 

Because people are right, it did seem like such a waste to spend all that money on a gala scene when those interactions could have been integrated in a cheaper way. We really only needed the bondage and the bar scene, those didn't require massive extras and gala/black tie wardrobe. That being said I have been missing & craving the gorgeous party scenes of s1 & s2, so maybe they were just giving us a little taste of that, since they have been skimpy on them since MQ died. So I'm grateful we got the gala, even if budget wise I'm scratching my head.

[statsgirl]

I don't understand the head bad guy on the island. He thinks the bearded guy (they do have names, I assume) lied or was a troublemaker, but he has him whipped and humiliated instead of killed, which is bad for morale and creates a potential enemy for both himself and Oliver.

 

Diggle's attitude toward Andy, while harsh, kind of makes sense to me. He spent eight years mourning his brother. Finally came to terms with both his death and with the man who (he thought) killed him. Which, by the way, makes me wonder about the whole Deadshot storyline. Anyway, he finds out that Andy has been alive this whole time and deliberately avoided contacting him or his own family. He doesn't want to talk about it with Oliver or Laurel, despite his insistence at understanding better than anyone else what he's going through, even though it's not even remotely the same, because there isn't anything they could say to give him answers or closure. He only wants to hear it from Andy.

Having Oliver whip Conklin because 'the one who was hurt does the hurting back' seemed to me to be incredibly stupid.  If there is bad blood between the two men, it's just going to make it worse and then Reiter will have an even harder problem controlling them. The actor seems like a nice guy but Reiter seems more like he's on drugs than an evil mastermind.

 

I wondered about Deadshot too. Maybe DD revived Andy with some of the LP water he has, or maybe he gave Deadshot special bullets that didn't actually kill him.

 

If Andy was such a drug lord, why was he working security detail?  He must have enough money to set up another fake job.  (I'm expecting Andy to be undercover for ARGUS or something.)

 

I agree about why Diggle is so black and white about Andy.

 

Also, if Andy is now an evil person and working for DD, I disagree with Lyla that Diggle should tell Carly and AJ that Andy's alive right now.  She'll desperately want to see him and no good can come of that.  See how it all turns out and then, if either Andy's dead or its all okay, Carly can be told.

 

Right now, it seems like the only people who are dead dead are Robert, Tommy and Moira. I expect to see Deadshot pop up again next season.

 

 

But in order to make it a moment, you have to delay the reveal. And keep delaying it, because it's entirely reasonable that Conklin told Vlad that Oliver killed his sister, and that's why he attacked Oliver.

Conklin asked the people "who wants to have an easier time here?" and Vlad volunteered, at which point we presume Conklin told him to kill Oliver in exchange.  No mention of Poppy at all.  Since Oliver took Poppy away and she's been gone from the group for a couple of weeks now, it's logical that Vlad already thinks Oliver killed her.

[arjumand]

Guggie answered a Tumblr ask about that, and he had no idea that canonically Oliver speaks Mandarin perfectly.  He completely forgot and didn't even remember when the questioner reminded him of that episode/scene.

 

Holy crap this pisses me off. This is even worse than the whole "Roy got electrocuted, and LOL we forgot about him".

 

This is your fucking protagonist. There is such a thing as continuity. 

 

Conklin asked the people "who wants to have an easier time here?" and Vlad volunteered, at which point we presume Conklin told him to kill Oliver in exchange.  No mention of Poppy at all.  Since Oliver took Poppy away and she's been gone from the group for a couple of weeks now, it's logical that Vlad already thinks Oliver killed her.

 

 

Which is why I said that the mention of Poppy must have happened offscreen, as we didn't see it.

 

And I did point out that it's entirely logical that Vlad knows, except he's not in any way behaving like he knows. He's not behaving like someone who's being ordered around by his sister's killer. Because the audience is not meant to know yet, so the characters have to behave illogically until the show is satisfied that the news will come as a shock.

Edited November 19, 2015 by arjumand

[Racj82]

Serious hate for the actions scenes. I thought they were badass. They also seem to be well received overall on the internet. It reminded me of the single tracking shot fights from Daredevil and SHIELD last season with Daisy. It took a second to get used to but I appreciate the style.

Diggle better not be the one dead in the future. Ramsey is too damn good.

[AyChihuahua]

Holy crap this pisses me off. This is even worse than the whole "Roy got electrocuted, and LOL we forgot about him".

 

This is your fucking protagonist. There is such a thing as continuity. 

It was a really cool scene, too...a  nice little fight, Oliver using items at hand to win (hot sauce to the face), getting his info by speaking perfect Mandarin, and also setting up his cover by speaking perfect Mandarin.  Oliver was quite smart in S1.

[apinknightmare]

Hot sauce to the face was the best.

[lexicon]

I'm going back and forth about whether campaign manager guy is going to turn out to be evil. On one hand, having him be evil would be a little too reminiscent of the DJ guy last year. But on the other hand, he seemed like he forgave Thea for beating the crap out of that guy wayyyyyy too easily. So now I'm somewhat suspicious.

The two situations aren't really close to each other at all, but somehow I'm reminded of Lex and Helen in Smallville.

 

The problem with the writing on Arrow now is I'm never sure whether something happened was done deliberately to set up a later plot point OR it just fell through the cracks and means nothing. So yeah while I agree that Ryan Shay was way too willing to excuse Thea wailing on the creep in the bar, I'm not sure if it's supposed to mean something or was just one of those times the Arrow writers failed to have their characters behave in a manner I find believable.

 

DD conveniently leaving a piece of paper with secret information out so that Lance could find it, mere moments after questioning his loyalty just SCREAMED set up to me but not apparently to Dig and Oliver, both of whom are supposed to be pretty good strategists. So either DD is a dumbass and nothing we've seen so far suggests that, or Dig and Oliver, are both being blind for plot.

 

Either way, it makes it hard to spin theories when you're not sure if the things that happen on screen are meant to be clues or are just examples of bad writing.

 

As for all the praise Bamford is getting from the media for this episode I just can't help but wonder how much of that is qualified....like "that was some great directing...for a stuntman" or maybe "what was a great episode...for a first time director". I mean really, how many of those very same reviewers would've seen this episode and said I must look up this director to single him out for praise if TPTB hadn't made such a big deal about Bam finally getting to direct an ep. IMO it would take somebody with awfully big cojones to tell Berlanti et al, what a bad idea it was to let their stunt co-ordinator man the director's chair. 

[AyChihuahua]

SERIOUSLY.  Because, for example, everyone in the universe should know that Oliver is the Hood/Arrow/Green Arrow/whatever else they want to call him.  But apparently people really don't know.  So now, does DD know?  He should know, he was kind of acting like he knew by the final speech, but hell, Quentin apparently really never knew.  This show is so sloppy so often that it really is impossible to figure stuff like this out.

Re Bam Bam, I hope so.  I guess we'll know by whether/how often they let him direct again.  I personally hope the answer is never again, but who knows.

[Primal Slayer]

I just remembered that SA tweeted about the night they filmed the gala and it was the most extras they'd ever used or something and now all I can think is what a waste of money that was. Seriously, that gala and their fancy outfits was a whole load of nothing.

Yeah it was a waste, i was really hoping something big would happen at the event.

[statsgirl]

I have to admit I'm a bit confused by the whole Ghost thing. If that tooth they pulled had half the genetic markers or whatever, technically they're not even human anymore. Back in 403 Felicity made a point of saying they should be goo and it's not possible. So does that mean they're not really even alive? And does that also mean that, technically, Andy is actually dead? And how much of Andy is really still Andy? 

What does that even mean?  That half of their genes are gone?  Or degraded?  How does someone live like that?

[dtissagirl]

Well, this is the show that thought the DNA on the arrow that killed Sara could be Oliver's OR Thea's, because that's totally how DNA works. Genetics is not exactly their forte.

Edited November 19, 2015 by dtissagirl

[KirkB]

At least with Dark part of the explanation could be magic, which allows for some leeway. They didn't even have that excuse with Thea and the arrows.

[kismet]

As for all the praise Bamford is getting from the media for this episode I just can't help but wonder how much of that is qualified....like "that was some great directing...for a stuntman" or maybe "what was a great episode...for a first time director". I mean really, how many of those very same reviewers would've seen this episode and said I must look up this director to single him out for praise if TPTB hadn't made such a big deal about Bam finally getting to direct an ep. IMO it would take somebody with awfully big cojones to tell Berlanti et al, what a bad idea it was to let their stunt co-ordinator man the director's chair. 

It wasn't that bad of an episode for a first time director or a stunt man. There were weird edits and awkward camera moves, but overall it wasn't horrible. The writing was pretty piss poor as well. And that wasn't all a newbie thing either, Keto has been around since at least s2, so it should have been better. The episode was just an average run-of-the-mill filler episode for ARROW. It was neither spectacular, no the worst hour of TV ever directed or written. It had a few good character moments. The stunts were highlighted, but I think the problem is the stunts weren't that great. So when you have a stunt guy directing the whole episode you imagine its gonna be awesome stunts. Instead it was meh. The shaky cam was just a cool camera technique that just wasn't executed well.

 

I wasn't even upset that everybody talked up the episode previously to airing. Bamford has been there since the pilot/s1, so he is part of the show's family. And you celebrate your family's accomplishments. But for them to talk up the episode as one of the best ever was a little much, especially considering if they saw the final product. Overall it had an average script and average directing (& that's being kind on both). There were no spectacular or emotional gotta see that again moments. Even the acting performances were average. DR did the best he could with the material. But overall it was just a meh episode. However, I agree with you that it would take some big cajones to tell TPTB that Bamford was just a meh director. Plus Bamford is still part of the family, so to say he's kinda crappy at the job is harder because you're insulting family. Sometimes it harder to be critical on people closer to you. 

 

That all being said, I hope they don't let Bamford behind the director's camera for awhile, until he learns more about how to edit & direct a lot better. Maybe just let him do the B roll until he proves he can produce amazing stuff.

Edited November 19, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

There were also really long transition shots where the camera would slowly pan to a light and then dissolve to another scene. The one where the camera pushed in on Felicity's purple sweater only to pull back on someone on the island wearing the same color (even though almost every single person on that island is wearing camo) was really silly.

Oh, he was apparently held back on it a little.

 

 

I'm actually really curious about how many of those transitions he came up with. It seems like it would be hilarious to see them all together.

 

I think that's more a lack of money for wardrobe than pre-planning.

If it were me, I would have burned the clothes I was kidnapped in.

They have other clothes Lyla has worn in her appearances so I like to believe it was intentional to use this particular sweater. And Lyla isn't normal people. Who knows how many times she was kidnapped, taken or detained.

 

Guggie answered a Tumblr ask about that, and he had no idea that canonically Oliver speaks Mandarin perfectly.  He completely forgot and didn't even remember when the questioner reminded him of that episode/scene.

This is just hilarious. Although I'm more surprised that SA didn't catch it. He seems to really have a god grasp on Oliver's story. Maybe he played stupid on purpose to avoid having to learn lines in a foreign language?

 

Do we wonder if perhaps they shot additional gala scenes that they will then use in the Holiday party? Perhaps they used the extras for some of shots while they had them on the payroll?

It would be a smart thing to do budget wise, but I doubt it. The directors are different and I'm almost positive the behind the screen photos came out at different times.

[Guest]

What does that even mean?  That half of their genes are gone?  Or degraded?  How does someone live like that?

 

I have no clue. And if it is more to do with the magic, does the magic 'stop' when DD is finally defeated/killed? 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯