S09.E08: The Zygon Inversion

[call me ishmael]

As an aside, given that Kate was able to kill multiple Zygons with a handgun, I'm not sure why Bonnie is so confident of victory.

 

To be fair, I'm not sure that Bonnie expected to win.  What she wanted was to stop what she thought was an intolerable situation.  The whole point of Doctor's speech was that she hadn't really thought beyond her anger.  I wasn't so bothered by the forgiveness.  After all, this was a diplomatic situation at the end of a rebellion or war.  Often in those cases it is necessary to forgive in order to move on (of course they usually find a lower-level figure to scapegoat for the satisfaction of punishing someone).  Plus the Doctor thought he recognized in Bonnie a kindred soul spoiled by rage.

 

I know that continuity would suggest that Dalek Clara was a different time line but I do wonder if this callback to the Dalek Asylum isn't suggesting that that is where this Clara is heading.  Then she would be the hybrid and the reason the Doctor fled would be some instinct that it would cause him too much pain.

[elle]

What is "The Cartmel Masterplan"?  Sounds like a action movie from the 70s.

God, that was horrible.

 

I think I might have just broken up with the current show. :(

I hope that doesn't mean you have broken up with the forum!

 

I said that after the debacle that was last season's finale but, here I am, still catching an episode or two.  Maybe it is morbid curiosity, as in what else will they screw up next?

 

 But, much like the underwater base with the ghosts, he didn’t care when that one woman died but then when Clara’s name came up next on the list he goes into action.

Why didn't The Doctor stop the people from being killed in the future once he found out about the alien?

The Doctor and Clara's relationship is unhealthy and brings out the worst in the Doctor.  And Clara is such an average companion at best.

I realized that one of the reason I had found the last few episodes tolerable - The Doctor and Clara were either not together at all or split up most of the time.  That is a sad statement about the current companion.  Were things this way with any other companion?

[tennisgurl]

Well...pros and cons. I want to focus on some pros now. 

 

Jenna was great as the Zygon version of Clara. I kind of want to see her in a straight up villain role now. And I loved that darker shade of lipstick she was wearing *is shallow*. 

 

Great showcase for Peter Capaldi. That last speech was a thing of beauty. He did a great job throughout the episode, showcasing both his humor and his dramatic chops. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Llywela]

I know that continuity would suggest that Dalek Clara was a different time line but I do wonder if this callback to the Dalek Asylum isn't suggesting that that is where this Clara is heading.  Then she would be the hybrid and the reason the Doctor fled would be some instinct that it would cause him too much pain.

Dalek Clara wasn't a different timeline, but a different Clara. She was called Oswin and she was one of the splinter versions of Clara, not Clara herself. She came from a different era and had a different background. This Clara can never be her.

 

What is "The Cartmel Masterplan"?  Sounds like a action movie from the 70s.

I hope that doesn't mean you have broken up with the forum!

Nah, I couldn't break up with the forum. :) And morbid curiosity might well lure me back to see what's going on - but at the moment, I have zero desire to watch the rest of the season. :(

 

The Cartmel Masterplan is what fans call the plan a handful of writers devised in the late 80s to reinvent the show by reinventing the character of the Doctor as more than simply the wandering rogue Time Lord he'd always been up till then. The idea was developed in the New Adventure novels, culminating in the controversial Lungbarrow. Both RTD and Moffat's vision of the Doctor is pretty heavily influenced by the idea.

[Latverian Diplomat]

I do have a question though- remember in The Day of the Doctor (I think it was) when they were in the Black Archives- everyone forgets what happened in that room? Is that why they did the same thing 15 times?  Does that explain why Bonnie just gave up and decided to be good- or Osgood? 

I have the impression that the default setting is memory erase, for the people that sweep the floors or check the inventory or whatever, but that when a big cheese goes in, they have or expect to have some sort of override? Certainly the Doctor has the ability to exempt people, as he did here.

 

Bonnie made her decision to back down before the Doctor said the boxes had been used before, so I don't think that influenced her decision there. Becoming an Osgood seemed to me to be driven by recognizing that the Osgoods play a valuable role, and honestly she had nothing left of her old life and beliefs. I do agree with the other comments that her "glee" as Osgood was a tonal misstep. There should have been more remorse.

[shandy]

Thank G-d for this forum, all the love for this elsewhere made me think I was developing mental health difficulties. I never thought I'd become a Doctor Who 'fan' who religiously dislikes the show.  I laughed at them, but you know what, I see a little of their motivations today! 

 

What a brave choice it would have been for the Doctor and Clara to really face truth/consequences and for Clara to sacrifice herself to get rid of Bonnie. But no instead she's the woman who gives the doctor compassion - the reason he saves not only Bonnie, but also Gallifrey. Soapy daytime crapola again. I swear Moffat's view of women is that of an 1850s Scottish Presbyterian - either saints and sinners: evil temptress (occasionally serial killers) or angels convincing their man to 'choose the right'. You see it in all his writing. 

[benteen]

Dalek Clara wasn't a different timeline, but a different Clara. She was called Oswin and she was one of the splinter versions of Clara, not Clara herself. She came from a different era and had a different background. This Clara can never be her.

 

Nah, I couldn't break up with the forum. :) And morbid curiosity might well lure me back to see what's going on - but at the moment, I have zero desire to watch the rest of the season. :(

 

The Cartmel Masterplan is what fans call the plan a handful of writers devised in the late 80s to reinvent the show by reinventing the character of the Doctor as more than simply the wandering rogue Time Lord he'd always been up till then. The idea was developed in the New Adventure novels, culminating in the controversial Lungbarrow. Both RTD and Moffat's vision of the Doctor is pretty heavily influenced by the idea.

 

I liked Sylvester McCoy's Seventh Doctor a lot but I never liked the idea of the Doctor being like a near God-figure.  Clearly, he's more than your average Time Lord but I liked that he was a regular guy who had a granddaughter.

[darkestboy]

Easily the best episode this series and possibly Capaldi's most defining story too. That speech was beyond exceptional in every way possible and offered a great resolution to this human/Zygon situation.

 

Coleman did well, going back and forth between Bonnie and Clara and I really liked the former as an antagonist and even bought the redemption bit at the end too.

 

Osgood had so many great moments in this episode that I really wish she was the next companion but I guess not, eh? Petronella is an interesting name for her.

 

Kate was better used here than previous episodes too, which was nice, 10/10

[Mabinogia]

What a brave choice it would have been for the Doctor and Clara to really face truth/consequences and for Clara to sacrifice herself to get rid of Bonnie.

That would have been an amazing exit for Clara. It would have been a great moment for her, and Jenna to act out, and Capaldi too. Oh the angst! Oh the teary eyes! Oh the joy of finally being free from the most toxic pairing EVER! *sorry, bit biased against her* And it would have, as you say, been the ultimate consequence because, really, what was the truth/consequence here? I don't get it. They seemed to try to bludgeon us with "truth or consequences" but there weren't any. Oh, wait, is the truth that the Doctor is an ass and the consequence that Earth will face yet another Zygon uprising in a few weeks since no one remembers this one and therefore didn't learn a damned thing from it?

 

OYE! Though this episode had some great moments, and I love Osgood, and evil Clara was well played, and Capaldi rocked the whole thing, the storyline really, really, REALLY sucked!

 

I get forgiveness, but why was the Doctor the only one who was allowed that courtesy? Why couldn't we humans have a say in whether we would forgive Bonnie? Clearly he does see us as children who can't be trusted with remembering what she did. UGH!!!!

[benteen]

The 12th Doctor's attitude towards humans is a reason I think I haven't warmed up to him yet.  He's quick to forgive a mass murderer of humans and Zygons like Bonnie but will become super judgmental on those who want to hold her accountable.  His getting upset that Kate had to put down that Zygon who nearly killed her in NM was ridiculous...what else was she supposed to do?

 

That's why one of my favorite scenes last season was in The Caretaker when Danny, after taking a bunch of insulting abuse for the Doctor for no other reason than because of his psycotic hatred of soldier, threw the whole officer thing back in his face and really wound him up.  I find myself enjoying whenever this Doctor is called out on his bullshit.

Edited November 9, 2015 by benteen

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Cease This
The Doctor's arrangement for human/Zygon peace leaves credulity in pieces.

[benteen]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Cease This

The Doctor's arrangement for human/Zygon peace leaves credulity in pieces.

 

Geez, I had forgotten about the entire TOWN that Bonnie had wiped out.  Good lord, the Doctor let her get away with that?  I guess if you're an alien like Bonnie or  his buddy the Master, you are allowed to get away with mass murder while humanity is criticized for being selfish for not wanting to allow a freakin bird to hatch and destroy their moon.  You want to know why this Doctor isn't exactly likeab

 

Peter Harness...his stories aren't bad on the surfrace but they completely fall apart when you apply any kind of logic to them.

[tv-talk]

I've got a pretty low bar set for the show currently so I liked this one well enough based on a few things. Namely that Capaldi once again got to really act and make the role his own while having relatively minimal interactions with Clara as compared to last season. Past that though, story is just riddled with problems, contradictions, and absurdities that have been discussed here.

 

One question though...the 20million Zygons living among us, are there 20million humans in those eggs providing bodyprints? Or did I miss some 3sec throwaway line where the Doctor uses sonic glasses to circumvent that? Also, we are supposed to believe that 20million Zygons are going about as fake humans and just thankful for the chance? Or did their memories/reality get changed in a similar sonic fashion of some sort. The entire premise of the truce is just so utterly asburd, really dont see the point.

 

Much better would have been the Doctor doing everything he can to convince Bonnie to change, she doesnt, he destroys all of them like 4 did. The End, Doctor even more unhappy. Or maybe Clara actually DIES FOR GOOD saving humanity. Or soldiers break in the room and just kill the Zygons just as maybe The Big Speech was working. Basically anything but continuing on with the Zygons on Earth narrative, I mean come on.

[benteen]

I would have lived with Kate just putting a bullet between Bonnie's eyes.  Imagine the hissy fit the Doctor would have thrown if she did.

 

The Twelfth Doctor does fare better when not interaction with Clara.  Those two have anti-chemistry.

Edited November 9, 2015 by benteen

[wayne67]

I didn't watch the episode but the gist I'm getting is Zygons get to stay on the planet after trying to take over the world or whatever and the Silurians are still underground waiting for humanity to learn how to share? 

 

I've always been depressed by the Silurians and how they're handled on Doctor Who. I've watched about 2 or 3 episodes of this season. I'm kind of waiting till Clara or Doctor 12 leave/die. Is there somewhere where I could watch the Doctor speech ?

[Llywela]

One question though...the 20million Zygons living among us, are there 20million humans in those eggs providing bodyprints? Or did I miss some 3sec throwaway line where the Doctor uses sonic glasses to circumvent that? Also, we are supposed to believe that 20million Zygons are going about as fake humans and just thankful for the chance? Or did their memories/reality get changed in a similar sonic fashion of some sort. The entire premise of the truce is just so utterly asburd, really dont see the point.

No, there aren't 20 million captive humans providing bodyprints - even Moffat's Doctor might baulk at that one (I'd like to hope!) No, they contrived the premise of this episode by retconning the Zygons completely. In 1975, Zygons used technology to allow them to change form, and had to hold captive humans in machines to achieve it, as the body print had to be refreshed every couple of hours. Moffat's Zygons can just reach into someone's mind, extract a memory, and use that to transform. They can also retain a borrowed form after the original host has died. The body prints no longer have to be refreshed. The shapechanging has become an integral part of the Zygons' being, rather than something achieved via technology. Complete retcon. Because they wanted to tell this plot, and needed to alter the Zygons in order to achieve it. Lousy storytelling.

 

And yes. We are, apparently, supposed to believe that 20million Zygons are content to live out their lives in secret, disguised as humans - and so will their children, and grandchildren, in perpetuity. Only the odd rogue here and there will ever complain that it isn't fair, kick up a stink and be instantly forgiven the moment they mend their ways, no matter how many innocent lives have been lost as a result. 20 million humans will never know or care that their faces have been stolen and their memories violated. And everyone will just have to trust that no Zygon will ever infiltrate his or her way into high office and resume the original plans for a full take-over, because it's not as if there's any actual way of stopping them if they did. Because the Doctor says that it's okay for these particular alien invaders to settle in secret on the planet they've tried repeatedly to conquer, therefore we are supposed to believe that this is perfectly fine and not notice all the screamingly obvious flaws in the plan.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Llywela

[tv-talk]

Moffat's Zygons can just reach into someone's mind, extract a memory, and use that to transform.

 

 

oh so there are 20million identical duplicates of actual humans running around? But they never run into each other because...I must have missed something. 

[Llywela]

oh so there are 20million identical duplicates of actual humans running around? But they never run into each other because...I must have missed something. 

Yup. And nope. You missed nothing. They just never run into each other because. There is no end to that sentence. No explanation. Just pure handwavium.

[HauntedBathroom]

They never run into each other because they were relocated to places where they wouldn't interact with their originals. Such as the town Truth or Consequences.

 

And for those who say "Harry would never do that!!!(clutch pearls)", remember that after he left UNIT, he headed off to Porton Down. Building nerve gases would be right up his street. Just because he wore a Paddington duffle coat, doesn't mean this Naval officer was a teddy bear.

 

I believe he said 15 times. So, a Zygone rebellion has happened 15 in the past 2-3 years but it's all OK now?

 

I assumed the 15 line mean that the four people in the room had to go through the situation 14 times before Bonnie stopped being a pyscho bitch. And it's not cool that she got to walk away with no punishment, but that's what happens when terrorists agree to put down their weapons. See how something that is a very fragile peace could only come to Ireland when people gave up their guns.
 

Edited November 9, 2015 by HauntedBathroom

[elle]

Geez, I had forgotten about the entire TOWN that Bonnie had wiped out.  Good lord, the Doctor let her get away with that?  I guess if you're an alien like Bonnie or  his buddy the Master, you are allowed to get away with mass murder while humanity is criticized for being selfish for not wanting to allow a freakin bird to hatch and destroy their moon.  You want to know why this Doctor isn't exactly likeab

 

Peter Harness...his stories aren't bad on the surfrace but they completely fall apart when you apply any kind of logic to them.

 

From the recap:

But he's also forgiving her on behalf of his dead flight crew, and the UNIT team wiped out in the church last week, and the countless Londoners crammed into underground Zygon pods, and the entire population of Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, reduced to a Dumpster full of giant sparking dust bunnies

I am embarrassed to admit that it took me to catch that little detail during the rewatch.  I might be slow on the uptake, but the disappearance of over 6, 300 people would not go unnoticed by the state or the country.  Here's a question, what would the USA do when they found out about Unit's relocation plan and its consequences?

[tv-talk]

I assumed the 15 line mean that the four people in the room had to go through the situation 14 times before Bonnie stopped being a pyscho bitch.

 

 

So all the other 14x she says "Screw you Doctor!" and hits a button (but thankfully doesnt tell her henchman to incinerate Clara, the Doctor, and Stewart) and then nothing happens at which point the Doctor is like "Ok, take 10!" and proceeds to wipe everyone's mind and start over? That would seem to be the ultimate danger-that-isnt-danger scenario being spoken about above where in fact the Doctor has won before events unfold.

[hnygrl]

Here's the thing:  In my opinion, this season's been a mish mash of hit or miss. Except for the first two, I have yet to make it through an entire episode from start to finish.

Theyr'e just too boring. Sure, there are parts, scenes that make the show watchable or even memorable. Like Ashildr's scene at the end of part 2, and the Doctor's Speech (gotta capitalize that one. Wowzers.). But the rest of that episode was so damn dull I did other things while it was on. I would mute it when commericals came on and forget to unmute it and didn't care.

 

I love this Doctor. 12 is the bomb.com and I hope he's around for awhile. I really really really really really really wish Clara would've just died during the Christmas episode as planned. I just don't like her. She's too much "the star of the show" and it's not about her. It's not called "the doctor's companion" "it's Doctor Who" after all. I thought that once she quit lying and trying to live a double life she'd settle down and be fun like the other companions, but she's still the same "my sh*t don't stink" stuck up Clara she's always been and I still kinda hate her.

 

I love love loved the Doctor's speech at the end, and the two Osgoods. I love the look on the Doctor's face when he offered Osgood the Companion spot...and when he said HE was a huge fan of HERS my heart kinda melted.

 

See? Scenes, but overall? This episode was deadly dull, plodding, boring, dark dark dark and I am so damn SICK of DARK this season. Can't they have some FUN?

 

Guess not...at least till they kill Clara.

THAT episode I'll watch all the way through!

[Ringthane]

I didn't watch the episode but the gist I'm getting is Zygons get to stay on the planet after trying to take over the world or whatever and the Silurians are still underground waiting for humanity to learn how to share? 

 

I've always been depressed by the Silurians and how they're handled on Doctor Who. I've watched about 2 or 3 episodes of this season. I'm kind of waiting till Clara or Doctor 12 leave/die. Is there somewhere where I could watch the Doctor speech ?

 

I believe it's on Youtube. 

 

Yeah, here it is:

 

https://youtu.be/fBv_lwQWxoM?list=PLvMGq_h9khwW25HNCI7atc4wlbig0p9q6

[Llywela]

They never run into each other because they were relocated to places where they wouldn't interact with their originals. Such as the town Truth or Consequences.

 

And for those who say "Harry would never do that!!!(clutch pearls)", remember that after he left UNIT, he headed off to Porton Down. Building nerve gases would be right up his street. Just because he wore a Paddington duffle coat, doesn't mean this Naval officer was a teddy bear.

Not all of them are relocated to places where they wouldn't interact with their originals. What are Osgood's family supposed to make of copies running around living her exact life?

 

It isn't clutching at pearl's to dislike the way the reference to Harry was handled in this two-parter. Yes, he worked at Porton Down after UNIT, developing antidotes to nerve toxins - and was extremely uncomfortable with that work. He strongly disliked working with nerve toxins even as closely as was necessary to develop antidotes to them, never mind creating a toxin itself. I've read the book. Have you? The writer of this episode certainly hasn't (I don't think he's watched the past Zygon adventure, either, just read the cliff notes. He got a lot of the detail wrong). This Naval officer might not have been a teddy bear, but he wasn't a killer. Besides which, he was a general practitioner, not a bio-chemist - he might have developed the skills to be involved in such research, but he couldn't have been expert enough to lead it and have his name stamped all over it. But what bothers me most is that the way the reference plays out, there's not even a hint of a suggestion that the Doctor actually knew and liked him. The Fourth Doctor was very fond of Harry, even if he did enjoy poking at him. And there was a lot more to Harry than the fact that the Doctor called him names one time in a moment of stress (not even deserved), even if fandom does seem weirdly attached to that line, which isn't even funny. He was a full time companion, a stalwart right-hand man who saved the Doctor's life a bunch of times. And this is how New Who remembers him? As some random former UNIT officer who developed a biological weapon of mass destruction that the Doctor disapproves of? If it was, say, Martha Jones, there'd be an outcry. Think about it. Martha got kidnapped and cloned by the Sontarans that time. So imagine if there was another Sontaran invasion, and the head of UNIT in that story mentioned in passing that they used to have a medical officer called Jones who created a biological weapon capable of wiping out every Sontaran in one fell swoop in a hideously agonising death, but that they can't use said weapon because the Doctor stole it. And then the Doctor says of course he stole it because only an idiot would create something so murderous. And the reference was never expanded on, no recognition of Martha's relationship with the Doctor, just her name being used in vain to lend credence to the concept of the weapon. Like I said, there'd be an outcry, because that doesn't represent who she was. The Martha we know wouldn't create something like that. And neither would Harry. References that honour former companions are great. References that stomp all over their memory are not.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Llywela

[Ringthane]

Speaking of Harry Sullivan, does anyone else remember that Companions book series they tried to do back in the 80's?  There were (I believe) two of them - one for Turlough, and one for Harry.  I have both of them, and one of these days I'll have to get Harry's book out and see what happened in it. The Companions books were supposed to be about what happened to the companions after they left the Doctor.

 

Here's a link to the series: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Companions_of_Doctor_Who

 

And a link to the actual Harry Sullivan book: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Harry_Sullivan's_War_%28novel%29

 

From what I remember of them, Harry's book was a lot more James Bond-ish than he ever was in the series.  According to the link, he was working on antidotes to nerve toxins, not toxins as in this story, but I don't know how canon these books actually were.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Ringthane

[Llywela]

From what I remember of them, Harry's book was a lot more James Bond-ish than he ever was in the series.  According to the link, he was working on antidotes to nerve toxins, not toxins as in this story, but I don't know how canon these books actually were.

That's what I've been talking about elsewhere in the thread. The novels are only as canon as any other of the published novels (everyone's opinion differs) - they aren't TV canon. In Harry Sullivan's War, Harry is indeed working on antidotes to nerve toxins - and he is extremely uncomfortable about having to work with the toxins themselves just as closely as necessary to develop antidotes for them, never mind developing an actual toxin himself. The idea of it is totally out of character.

 

Harry Sullivan's War is more James Bond-ish than the show, but Harry himself is as honest and upright and bumbling as he ever was, stumbling along in the current of events trying hard to do the right thing at every turn.

[benteen]

Hary would have only worked on a weapon if he were under orders but then would have been more than happy to have helped the Doctor steal it.  I wish we had heard that instead of the complete misrepresenation of his character, which was anything but a tribute.  Again, with this writer...

[Llywela]

Hary would have only worked on a weapon if he were under orders but then would have been more than happy to have helped the Doctor steal it.  I wish we had heard that instead of the complete misrepresenation of his character, which was anything but a tribute.  Again, with this writer...

My headcanon is that there was never any Z-67 gas in the first place. The Doctor wanted a deterrent, but only needed it to be the idea of a thing, rather than for the thing itself to actually exist, so he popped back a few decades and had a chat with an old friend, who was ideally positioned at Porton Down - got him to file a bit of paperwork referring to a branch of research that never actually existed and a gas that was never actually developed, just planting an idea of something the Doctor could use three or four decades later. Harry loved all that cloak-and-dagger spy stuff, he'd have been more than happy to help. And with his background, no one searching the records a few decades later would have questioned the story at all.

 

Watching the episode, in which this supposed work of Harry's is referred to by the Doctor with such disdain, not even a hint of their actual relationship, you'd be forgiven for thinking he was an antagonist rather than a good friend and upstanding citizen. I mean, seriously. Harry was the only member of UNIT's military staff we've ever met who didn't habitually carry a weapon of any kind. He's the only UNIT officer the Doctor has ever chosen to take with him in the TARDIS. He was the only person in the whole of Genesis of the Daleks who didn't advocate genocide. He wasn't the person this episode made him out to be.

[benteen]

Exactly.  The Doctor and Harry's relationship was actually quite good and the chemistry between the actors was great.  In Marwyn Undead, the Fifth Doctor specifically asks the Brigadier how Harry is doing.  He might have knocked Harry for his bumbling ways (in mostly a jovial sort of way) and busted his chops but he never held him in disdain.

[wayne67]

I believe it's on Youtube. 

 

Yeah, here it is:

 

https://youtu.be/fBv_lwQWxoM?list=PLvMGq_h9khwW25HNCI7atc4wlbig0p9q6

 

Thanks for the link. Sadly I can't watch it due to location issues. 

[Llywela]

Exactly.  The Doctor and Harry's relationship was actually quite good and the chemistry between the actors was great.  In Marwyn Undead, the Fifth Doctor specifically asks the Brigadier how Harry is doing.  He might have knocked Harry for his bumbling ways (in mostly a jovial sort of way) and busted his chops but he never held him in disdain.

Yes. The Doctor picked on Harry from time to time, but he picks on everyone from time to time - let's not forget that he called Rose Tyler herself a stupid ape, even. He liked Harry, trusted and respected him, even if he did enjoy making fun of his bumbling ways. None of that was reflected here.

 

And the other thing that bothers me about this Z-67 thing is that it never goes anywhere. It's a Chekhov's Gun thing. If you show the gun in the first act, it should go off in the third. The story goes to all the trouble of telling us about this gas and what it does, who supposedly invented it, how it got stolen, etc, but then never actually goes anywhere with it. The gun never goes off. The story needed to do something with the concept of the gas to give it dramatic and narrative purpose - either make it a real and present threat by having it physically present/actually using it, or drop the other shoe by revealing that it never existed in the first place, just a big hoax set-up by the Doctor to provide a bit of useful leverage in negotiations, which would tie in perfectly with the whole idea of the boxes being a giant mislead (and Moffat's love of twist endings). Instead, it just feels like a loose end left hanging that didn't even need to be there in the first place. Very untidy, unsatisfying writing.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Llywela

[benteen]

Exactly.  You introduce something like the Zygon gas, then it needs to be brought into the story.  If not, then there was no reason for the Harry backstory on it.

[MarkHB]

All this talk of Harry reminds me of the Fourth Doctor's first words:

 

Doctor: "I tell you Brigadier, there's nothing to worry about!  The brontosaurus is large, and placid"

 

Harry enters, his first appearance on the show

HS: "Is this the patient, sir?"

 

Doctor: "... and stupid!"

 

I noticed that they actually lampshaded the change in Zygon physiology, when Osgood said "those are the old Zygons!"

 

I asked this earlier: does anyone know which Doctor the last Osgood we saw was cosplaying? She didn't quite look like any of them AFAICT.

[Llywela]

I noticed that they actually lampshaded the change in Zygon physiology, when Osgood said "those are the old Zygons!"

 

I asked this earlier: does anyone know which Doctor the last Osgood we saw was cosplaying? She didn't quite look like any of them AFAICT.

Lampshading a retcon doesn't make it any less of a retcon. If you have to make sweeping changes to the basic physiology of a creature in order to make your story work, you should go back to the drawing board and use a different creature. Or a different plot. And I'm not sure which she was meant to be cosplaying - can't bring the costume to mind. Possibly a mixture? Remind me what she was wearing?

 

The Fourth Doctor's first words in Robot are a quotation of his former self from Invasion of the Dinosaurs. The timing of Harry's entrance in the middle of the sentence is meant to be comic, yes - there's a lot of good-natured humour in that story, to make up for the rubbish plot!

Edited November 10, 2015 by Llywela

[Llywela]

I asked this earlier: does anyone know which Doctor the last Osgood we saw was cosplaying? She didn't quite look like any of them AFAICT.

Sorry for the double post. I went away and found a screencap:

 

The Osgood on the right, the one that used to be Bonnie, is mostly being the 7th Doctor - that's a 7th Doctor question mark jumper and paisley scarf. The duffle coat, however, might be a nod to Harry Sullivan, who wore one in a couple of his adventures with the Doctor.

 

The Osgood on the left is mainly channelling the 5th Doctor, I believe.

[elle]

Lampshading a retcon doesn't make it any less of a retcon. If you have to make sweeping changes to the basic physiology of a creature in order to make your story work, you should go back to the drawing board and use a different creature. Or a different plot.

I laughed out loud at this.  Different show, same problem - Klingons, anyone?

 

Great screencap!  If they had just opened the coat a bit, we could see the vest much better to see it as the nod to 7 it is.

[MarkHB]

Sorry for the double post. I went away and found a screencap:

 

The Osgood on the right, the one that used to be Bonnie, is mostly being the 7th Doctor - that's a 7th Doctor question mark jumper and paisley scarf. The duffle coat, however, might be a nod to Harry Sullivan, who wore one in a couple of his adventures with the Doctor.

 

The Osgood on the left is mainly channelling the 5th Doctor, I believe.

 

Thanks for the answer on Osgood; it's been a long time since I watched many 7th Doctor episodes, and I never really associated the paisley with him.  ITA on the 5th Doctor for the other Osgood. I'd love to see her as the Doctor's companion; just think of what she could do with the TARDIS wardrobe.

 

I also totally agree on the Zygon retcon, FWIW.

[Llywela]

Thanks for the answer on Osgood; it's been a long time since I watched many 7th Doctor episodes, and I never really associated the paisley with him.  ITA on the 5th Doctor for the other Osgood. I'd love to see her as the Doctor's companion; just think of what she could do with the TARDIS wardrobe.

Got to be honest, at least part of the reason I know the paisley scarf is 7th Doctor is because I live fairly close to the Doctor Who Experience and pop in for a cuppa and to browse the shop all the time - they sell copies of the scarf!

[Ringthane]

Something that just occurred to me about this episode, and I'm not sure if anyone brought this up: Twelve's "sit down and talk" speech was awesome and all, except for one thing...

 

Getting the humans and Zygons to sit down and talk is exactly what started this whole mess.

 

Again, if any of the three Doctors in "Day of the Doctor" had just said to the Zygons "Let us find you a new world and leave the Earth in peace", instead of wiping their minds of whether they were human or Zygon, locking them in a room, and not letting them leave until they worked out a treaty, none of this would have to have happened.  Earth (and the Doctor) are stuck cleaning up the mess he made.  I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time, but...

 

It isn't the first time something like this has happened - see the Hartnell story "The Ark" for a similar example.  Also, there's "The Face of Evil", where Four has to clean up the mess he made in an earlier visit to Leela's planet. 

[Llywela]

Exactly.  You introduce something like the Zygon gas, then it needs to be brought into the story.  If not, then there was no reason for the Harry backstory on it.

I don't normally self-promote, but for those who feel as I do about this aspect of the episode, I wrote a little missing scene ficlet, which slots in toward the end of the episode and sets the record straight, without changing a thing that actually happens in the story. I'm flattering myself that my dislike of both Clara and the story don't show at all in the fic.

[Sunnydayman]

Capaldi was fantastic! He brings all of Tennant's intensity without being as shouty- and I love 10- but tonight's episode is why I believe 12 may be the best doctor ever. 10 out of 10 performance

That said- I'm sorry but the story bothered me. Kate is not allowed to kill million to save the lives of billions, but Bonnie is allowed to kill 100s with basically no consequences and is forgiven in the bargain??? I get that to stop a circle of violence, there has to be forgiveness and growing, but apparently this has happened 15 times, so what exactly is being learned? I guess YMMV- I can "forgive" Missy for the dead snipers in the square because she has't turned "good" and didn't pretend to, but this just leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. One- albeit fantastic- speech from the doctor and we are to forget the UNIT soldiers, the pilot of the president plane, the new science gal at UNIT? And not just forget them but count on that person/zygon to patrol the peace? My head is spinning, but I don't think this will be a favorite for me.

Typical Doctor Who hypocrisy. I have loved this show since I was a boy but the endless sanctimonious preaching can be annoying. Bonnie is one of a long line of murderer that he protects. Why can't he find the Zygons a home instead of leaving a hostile alien force on Earth? He actions are again irresponsible. Edited November 11, 2015 by Sunnydayman

[wayne67]

Typical Doctor Who hypocrisy. I have loved this show since I was a boy but the endless sanctimonious preaching can be annoying. Bonnie is one of a long line of murderer that he protects. Why can't he find the Zygons a home instead of leaving a hostile alien force on Earth? He actions are again irresponsible.

 

His actions are often irresponsible or ill advised but he's the Doctor and the stupid apes aren't allowed to question or criticize him. Anyway it's kind of pointless yelling at him because he just claims he's a madman in a box and not personally responsible for anything that happens and bails immediately so he doesn't have to help with the clean up or consequences of previous events. 

 

I'm still annoyed that the Doctor got self righteous about what Harriet Jones did to defend her home planet. Altered history because of his ire... 

[elle]

I'm still annoyed that the Doctor got self righteous about what Harriet Jones did to defend her home planet. Altered history because of his ire... 

That showed a pettiness I would not expect of the Doctor.  At least a writer somewhere let her show Ten that she was right about humans needing to take care of themselves since he wouldn't "always" be there (and thank you Mr. Copper).

Edited November 12, 2015 by elle

[Ringthane]

That's another time that the Doctor's messing with Earth just made things worse.  The whole Saxon thing could have been avoided if he'd followed the example set by his third incarnation when the Brigadier blew up the Silurians (ie, he let him know just what a tool he was, but went on from there.  He didn't sabotage anyone's career, or allow a madman to hold one of the highest posts on Earth, or get a bunch of people killed through his self-righteousness.  And I think we can agree that Three could be just as self-righteous as Ten any day.).

 

And I believe that Bonnie Osgood's duffle coat may have been a nod to Sylvester McCoy's duffle coat in "Curse of Fenric".  If so, it's quite an esoteric choice, as he only ever wore it in that story.

 

Anyone else notice that Twelve stopped calling Bonnie "Zygella" in the middle of his speech?  When things got really down to the wire, he stopped screwing around.  It's little subtle things like that that really show there's potential in the stories.  It's just too bad that the rest of it is as lousy as it is. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Ringthane

[John Potts]

One reason I like to get in my comments early is because I prefer my initial thoughts to be only influenced by the episode and not everyone else's thoughts, because the more I hear everyone else's criticisms, the more I think, "Yeah, you've got a point there" and I like the episode less - which is what happened with this one!

 

Ringthane, I misunderstood what you meant by "That Saxon thing", thinking you meant Ashildr (Viking not Saxon, admittedly, but close enough for many programmes), since he wouldn't have had any trouble with Lady Me if he hadn't saved the famous actress... I mean, saved the poor girl (but obviously not the dozen warriors who died earlier, because they were played by extras). But Harold Saxon was similar - if he hadn't brought down Harriet Jones for taking the ruthless (but not necessarily wrong) step of shooting down the retreating Sycorax, we'd have had the "New Golden Age" (or whatever it was) and the US President would be different - almost as if the Time Lords might have had a point about their "Prime Directive". In fact, if The Grand Moff really IS thinking about bringing back the "Cartmel Master Plan", I hope the Doctor's experiences cause him to be the originator of it (Timey-Wimey again) - although since that's mean ending the series, perhaps not for a few decades!

[Ringthane]

And I believe that Bonnie Osgood's duffle coat may have been a nod to Sylvester McCoy's duffle coat in "Curse of Fenric".  If so, it's quite an esoteric choice, as he only ever wore it in that story.

 

Yeah, I found a screencap from "Curse of Fenric".  The duffle coat looks like the one Sylvester McCoy wore in that story.

 

[Llywela]

Yeah, I found a screencap from "Curse of Fenric".  The duffle coat looks like the one Sylvester McCoy wore in that story.

 

Possibly left behind in the TARDIS by Harry...