S02.E07: Rise Of The Villains: Mommy's Little Monster

[blackwing]

James Frain is a miles better actor than Jessica Lucas. Everyone knows this. Jessica Lucas would say so herself if asked. James is specifically selling a cartoonish villain type to specification of the show. This is evidenced by his deliberate overacting in giving his speeches. If Jessica was tasked with playing James' role she'd be given the same assignment.

Would she? Do you know her personally and have you indeed asked her? My issue with James Frain is that he seemingly plays the same kind of character in everything. Seems like a nice guy at first but is revealed to be evil. He has typecast himself and has become a caricature of himself. As soon as he showed up this season I assumed he was going to be the big bad, and sure enough, he is.

I'm pretty tired of him, and I hope that, like Carmine Falcone, he doesn't stay in Gotham beyond one season. I agree that I would love to see Tabitha assume the mantle of the big bad. I find her riveting, whereas I am just bored with James Frain.

[Chaos Theory]

Would she? Do you know her personally and have you indeed asked her? My issue with James Frain is that he seemingly plays the same kind of character in everything. Seems like a nice guy at first but is revealed to be evil. He has typecast himself and has become a caricature of himself. As soon as he showed up this season I assumed he was going to be the big bad, and sure enough, he is.

I'm pretty tired of him, and I hope that, like Carmine Falcone, he doesn't stay in Gotham beyond one season. I agree that I would love to see Tabitha assume the mantle of the big bad. I find her riveting, whereas I am just bored with James Frain.

Added to this the show needs a strong female on it and Tabitha more then fits the bill. I am enjoying both rolls but I think James Frain is playing a little too broad and too obvious but I do think it is an acting choice. Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing both in further seasons.

[Raja]

Question, when the strike team member had sniper sis at gunpoint on the roof, what was he looking at off to the side?

I think he was just inexperienced and reached for something

[Kathemy]

Would she? Do you know her personally and have you indeed asked her? My issue with James Frain is that he seemingly plays the same kind of character in everything. Seems like a nice guy at first but is revealed to be evil. He has typecast himself and has become a caricature of himself. As soon as he showed up this season I assumed he was going to be the big bad, and sure enough, he is.

I'm pretty tired of him, and I hope that, like Carmine Falcone, he doesn't stay in Gotham beyond one season. I agree that I would love to see Tabitha assume the mantle of the big bad. I find her riveting, whereas I am just bored with James Frain.

No, I don't know her, I haven't asked her, and I would make a 5 to 1 bet that she would concede this anyway. Tabitha has practically no personality at all on this show apart from being a bad-ass violent lesbian. She'd have to show me a lot more for me to root for her taking the mantle of "uber-villain". That doesn't mean that I'm going to claim Lucas is a bad actress, it's just that I know that James is a classically trained actor capable of a nuanced performance on a level which I have never seen from Lucas. He's got extensive theater experience and he's performed on Broadway. He has a university degree in drama.

 

James Frain's Cromwell wasn't a villain. He was no more villainous than 90% of the people on that show and arguably a lot more decent than the king himself. However I do agree to a point that he's been typecast and I would love for him to get a different type of role soon, because I do agree constantly casting him as the bad guy gets boring. That doesn't mean he doesn't do bad guys well.

 

Oh and the only woman that doesn't fit the sexist "strong female" trope on this show is Lee.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Telepath

[The Kings Foot]

Added to this the show needs a strong female on it and Tabitha more then fits the bill.

 

Dont confuse  'action girl' and 'strong female'.  Being the moral and morale support for a guy doesnt make a woman weak.

[Amerilla]

I am enjoying both rolls but I think James Frain is playing a little too broad and too obvious but I do think it is an acting choice.

 

I think that's true for all of the Galavan gang: they're there to be so psycho that even our cast sociopaths go "whoa...dude." It pushes the story along faster than if they did a slow-boil "they-seem-good-but-they-turn-out-to-be-eeeevil" trope. Whether they stay there for the seasons of the for the next couple of seasons, their role in the story is to give the rest of the characters something to act against.

 

In this episode, at least, the fact they're relatively one-dimensional really worked, because it allowed a few moments of humanity to shine through. As sad as I am to see Mama Cobblepot go, she and Oswald displayed a level of love and tenderness that we already know is a foreign language to the Galavans. And at Stately Wayne Manor, we not only have Silver threatening to have Selina whacked within the first thirty seconds of meeting, we have her sitting there watching Selina and Bruce argue like they're in some faintly interesting wildlife show on TV.

 

Of all the characters this week, Bruce wins the prize for Most Clueless....but he's only 15, so it's not like it's much of a challenge to manipulate him. Galavan's playing both on his grief for his murdered family and his natural teenage hormones to isolate and control him. That's going to work for a while, especially with Alfred acting as Clueless Runner-Up. I thought it was pretty obvious he sees Silver as the perfect up-market girl for Master Bruce and does not sense the danger yet.    

 

I'm really interested in where they're taking Selina. Like Penguin and Nygma, she's steadily being stripped of her moorings. She's lost Fish and Bridget, Jim and Alfred have turned into enemies, and now she's losing Bruce. The difference is that Selina is saner than Oswald and Ed, so I'm not convinced they're going to use this as the catalyst to turn her dark. I think she's going to be more mission oriented to save Bruce from danger.

 

Cory did a great job showing Ed finally embrace his inner Riddler. I have to agree that his "Beautiful" was a high-point, especially with the punctuation of the saw.

 

On the other hand (no pun intended), I found myself unduly distracted by the details. Does the GCPD have no night staff and no internal cameras? Did Miss Kringle indeed have man-hands? (That thing stuck behind the ladyfingers looked massive.) Most of all, I kept noticing how her head changed positions between shots in the morgue - tilted and then straight. It's a little thing, and I know it's just how they film shots from different perspectives and intercut them in editing, but for some reason, it really took me out of the scene.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Amerilla

[Perfect Xero]

I think the Galavans are hilarious as these larger than life comic book villains at the center of Gotham, and I think they're intentionally played and written to have an element of dark comedy to them. Theo (and the whole clan) wouldn't work nearly as well for me if Frain was trying to do a serious, layered portrayal rather than embracing the role of theatrical villain.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Gotham Brings Its Secrets Out In The Open
Theo Galavan enjoys being evil so much, it's kind of surprising he kept it hidden as long as he did.

[Richness]

Gotham really has the shocking gore scenes down to a fine art. First, there was Fish's fork through her eyeball last season. Then there was Butch's chopped hand just a couple episodes ago. And we had a stiletto through a throat tonight. Granted, that last one wasn't nearly as shocking as the first two, but it was gloriously gratuitous.

[Delphi]

That shoe though the neck was very graphic compared to a lot this show does. Do these episodes still have content warnings before airing?

[Snookums]

What I don't understand is: why didn't Penguin bring Victor with him to rescue his mother?  Victor could have easily killed Galavan and Tabitha.

 

 

He wanted to kill them himself for revenge--which, if you insist on such, an army of delusionally, inexplicably loyal henchpeople who will go on such random suicide mission surrounding you is truly the way to go. Not a bad plan at all and it almost worked. Of course, Close Only Counts In Horseshoes, and all that, but it was a good window into future Elaborate Plans Penguin.

 

HOWever. We do need to discuss the willful blindness and stupidity of Gotham's pathetic excuse for law and order. This is a city that apparently houses a heavy weaponry Wal-mart, regular sex slave auctions, and massacres you could set your watch by. And yet, the shreds of the GCPD never, not once, not one damn time, ever change strategies!

 

What's that, Mayor-elect? You've already been targeted, in public places, twice, by crazed murderers, which led to dozens of both civilian and PD casualties? Why certainly, we can think of nothing better than to support your decision to have a huge election night party when we know for a fact you are being targeted by a crazy killer! There's nobody better to put on our strike force than a team of literally fresh out of the box newbies that don't have a single day's worth of real-world police experience between them! Two of Gotham's most experienced cops are held in a dangerous situation? Why radio in when they can both fire hundreds of rounds of high powered bullets out into a public street with no remonstrance of any kind--hell, nobody even mentions it! 

 

The best line tonight was Tabitha's "So you're mayor of this sinkhole." Indeed, and the top notch, grand prize winner, all time champion STUPID sinkhole at that! How can this many rich people still want to attend public functions when it's a guaranteed ticket to being slaughtered like Easter lambs? How can NONE of them decide to call any of the powerful people they know and get this place under National Guard lockdown? RRRRRGGGH! 

 

Anyway, this ep did have some delightful bits, like chocolate chips in an arsenic cookie:

 

Selina's line "This tea really does slap you in the face, doesn't it, Alfred?" and Alfred's "Okay, had that one coming" look.

 

Leslie's saying she doesn't want a key to Jim's place, then asking if he even has one. Zing!

 

Leslie again, accepting the role of Agony Aunt for Jim, saying hey, the corpses aren't going anywhere, right? And Cory Michael Smith's fantastic read of his line: "Yeah, you'd think so." 

 

Ed playing mean tricks on himself, just because he can.

Most of all, I kept noticing how her head changed positions between shots in the morgue - tilted and then straight.

 

 

That drove me nuts! I thought maybe they were doing it as part of Ed's split personality, but it came across as "fire your continuity person."

[driedfruit]

James Frain is a miles better actor than Jessica Lucas. Everyone knows this. Jessica Lucas would say so herself if asked. James is specifically selling a cartoonish villain type to specification of the show. This is evidenced by his deliberate overacting in giving his speeches. If Jessica was tasked with playing James' role she'd be given the same assignment.

 

I'm big fan of James, and I love Theo (all the Galavants really) but Theo has an expiration date and I don't see him sticking around past this season. 

 

A show like Gotham is a lot like the Kill Bill movies, in the way that you don't have to be the best actor to be awesome. You just have to sell the crazy bamf you're playing and make it look good. If this were a drama, Jessica would fall short, but her performance as Tigress has a lot of magnetism and potential and her character is like Victor Zsasz, where she can continue to adapt and remain a player on the show. A character like Theo can't. He can have the season long arc, but after that he needs to go to make room for the next big bad. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by driedfruit

[ElectricBoogaloo]

First, kudos to whoever has been choosing the music lately. Hilariously appropriate and simultaneously creepy song choices!

 

Loved that Ed's crazy alter ego hid Kristin's hand behind the lady fingers. It's nice to have those moments of humor amidst all the violence.

 

Seeing Ngyma's transformation at the very end when he decided to embrace the darkness was great acting. I also love how differently the two Nygmas acted in every way.

 

Although I agree that Silver played Selina so predictably, I can't fault Selina for acting like a teenager. She really thought that Bruce would know she had his best interests at heart and instead he was thinking with his pubescent boner.

[Milz]

Oh and the only woman that doesn't fit the sexist "strong female" trope on this show is Lee.

 

 Lee is a stereotypical strong female. She has her own identity (a physician and the Medical Examiner) which is separate from her boyfriend.  Unlike Dumbara who was introduced as Jim's fiancee and is now the Galavan's gun moll. Even Tabitha is a gun moll: her brother's gun moll. I think Dumbara and Tabitha are considered "strong" because they are violent, but otherwise they are just have a secondary role as henchwomen.

[Kathemy]

 Lee is a stereotypical strong female. She has her own identity (a physician and the Medical Examiner) which is separate from her boyfriend.  Unlike Dumbara who was introduced as Jim's fiancee and is now the Galavan's gun moll. Even Tabitha is a gun moll: her brother's gun moll. I think Dumbara and Tabitha are considered "strong" because they are violent, but otherwise they are just have a secondary role as henchwomen.

 Yes, that's sort of what I was getting at. The sexist view of a "strong female" is that a woman needs to be violent and physically stronger than the men to qualify as "strong". She needs to conform to medieval male virtues often to the point of being a thoroughly unlikeable psychopath. Amusingly this means there are almost  no "strong women" in real life.  She may also never be in a relationship with a character which has a bigger role on the show.

 

A pet favorite for advocates of said "strong woman" trope is Fish Mooney because she bows to no man, she's absurdly violent and she keeps men as sex slaves until they've served her purpose, then she has them shot. In the world view of these deluded people, this is something admirable.

[Chaos Theory]

But that is often my point. How many scenes has Lee been in since she hooked up with Jim? She has as many scenes as Barbara had in season one. The only difference is she has a "career". we haven't actually seen her in said career though have we? We can call Barbara all sorts of childish names but honestly I find her more interesting then Lee right now who pops in to say hi to Jim and then goes where've Gotham puts its female characters.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Kathemy]

The fact that a female character has a smaller role than a male character on a show does not make the show sexist. Is "Friday Night Lights" sexist because it's a story about a male football team?

 

This said I actually agree with DanielG because it's very clear that the show is affected by standard male versus female stereotypes but this is almost impossible to avoid when making a contemporary drama series and it is certainly not anything to bash it for. Also DanielG clearly pointed out that these stereotypes affect both men and women negatively, which is a breath of fresh air from the female supremacists you have to deal with in a lot of places. You can't take a show and make it "Feminist" just by adding a slew of women beating up men. The best you'll achieve is making it a toxic male-bashing dumpster.

[Milz]

 Yes, that's sort of what I was getting at. The sexist view of a "strong female" is that a woman needs to be violent and physically stronger than the men to qualify as "strong". She needs to conform to medieval male virtues often to the point of being a thoroughly unlikeable psychopath. Amusingly this means there are almost  no "strong women" in real life.  She may also never be in a relationship with a character which has a bigger role on the show.

 

A pet favorite for advocates of said "strong woman" trope is Fish Mooney because she bows to no man, she's absurdly violent and she keeps men as sex slaves until they've served her purpose, then she has them shot. In the world view of these deluded people, this is something admirable.

 

Okay, I gotcha now.  I, too, find it disturbing that "gender equality" is interpreted as stupid women doing the same stupid stuff stupid men do.

[formerlyfreedom]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion here. You do not have to agree with it. You DO have to be respectful and civil.

 

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[Snookums]

The only difference is she has a "career". we haven't actually seen her in said career though have we?

 

 

Well, she's supposedly the ME, which hasn't been shown too much lately, except when she walked into the morgue (which is in the police station for some reason) to terrify Ed. I love how she apparently dabbles in psychiatry, though--because it's totally easy to jump from one to the other. They aren't completely different branches of medicine that require years of study and qualification at all.

[Delphi]

I heard of a few places were the police departments share buildings with the forensic experts and MEs. Granted the buildings are usually bigger with a clear separation of the different parts. It's a convenience thing.

[Camera One]

I did not need to see innocent people being shot once again.  I like the character stuff, the mythology and the fun cartoony stuff, but one of these days, these massacres are going make me not want to tune in.

 

I was so happy that Jim clued in to Galavan, but why did it have to be so sudden.  It would have been nice to see him use his intelligence for a few episodes as he gathered evidence and came to that conclusion.  And way to make me bang my head against the wall with Jim telling Galavan that he's onto him.  This show is just so frustrating. 

 

I was sad to see another quality supporting character go, though I figured they would kill off Mrs. Cobblepot eventually.  

 

Silver was pretty dumb to get her cat claws out immediately like that.  This should have some good payoff when Selina can tell "I told you so" to Bruce and Alfred.

 

I hope Nygma is not fully psycho now.  He was really good comic relief for a season and half.  Goodbye to all that, I guess.

[wayne67]

HOWever. We do need to discuss the willful blindness and stupidity of Gotham's pathetic excuse for law and order. This is a city that apparently houses a heavy weaponry Wal-mart, regular sex slave auctions, and massacres you could set your watch by. And yet, the shreds of the GCPD never, not once, not one damn time, ever change strategies!

 

What's that, Mayor-elect? You've already been targeted, in public places, twice, by crazed murderers, which led to dozens of both civilian and PD casualties? Why certainly, we can think of nothing better than to support your decision to have a huge election night party when we know for a fact you are being targeted by a crazy killer! There's nobody better to put on our strike force than a team of literally fresh out of the box newbies that don't have a single day's worth of real-world police experience between them! Two of Gotham's most experienced cops are held in a dangerous situation? Why radio in when they can both fire hundreds of rounds of high powered bullets out into a public street with no remonstrance of any kind--hell, nobody even mentions it! 

 

The best line tonight was Tabitha's "So you're mayor of this sinkhole." Indeed, and the top notch, grand prize winner, all time champion STUPID sinkhole at that! How can this many rich people still want to attend public functions when it's a guaranteed ticket to being slaughtered like Easter lambs? How can NONE of them decide to call any of the powerful people they know and get this place under National Guard lockdown? RRRRRGGGH! 

 

The two biggest grievances I have with this show...

1 The cops seem to have very little interest in shooting to wound, they seem to kill most suspects of crimes and several underworld thugs a day or completely miss someone standing 20 feet away even when they're supposedly the best shots eva... for no particular reason. No one is shot in the cross fire when Gordon fires a giant gun into the street unconcerned about pedestrian casualties or restraint.

 

2 This is the third rich people public event out of the 3 rich people public event that has been attacked by armed or crazy criminals. Why aren't the rich people fleeing this stupid town. I can understand why the poor people can't escape but why would the rich people stay in Gotham with the mass murder when they can just go to Switzerland or wherever their second homes are. Unless they really love the underground sex slave auctions or the kinky S&M Fox Glove establishment or the Weapons Mart but seriously... Rich people have options. They can send their kids to better schools in places where cops aren't routinely massacred. 

 

Poor dead sniper boy. We hardly knew you. Your mom worked 3 jobs for you to become a cop and you died in your first week (guessing timeline). So sad.

[John Potts]

Now I know it's a comic book trope but can anybody do anything without spelling out their intentions first? We had Silver explaining to Kittyteen that she's secretly EVIL, Galavan explaining to Penguin how he'd sat his trap and Gordon explaining to Galavan how he now knew he was secretly  EVIL. I guess it was Penguin's ability to actually act before finishing his one liner that allowed him to get the jump on Galavan, who was presumably going "But.. you can't talk and act at the same time - that's cheating!" But at least people are starting to get suspicious of a guy that turns up at of nowhere and manipulate his way to becoming Mayor (apparently it hadn't struck anyone as suspicious until he actually became Mayor, but I'll take what we can get). Also, interesting to learn that apparently a Mayor can declare martial law in a city (I thought only the President or maybe a Governor could do that, but what do I know?)

 

darkestboy Butch, you'll never be a crime [boss]. Don't bother even trying. Another character that probably won't survive beyond this season.

 

He's one of nature's henchmen! You don't get to be brainwashed once a Season and come out as top dog. OTOH, cool escape from Gordon (though it reminded me of Agents of SHIELD too!).

 

 

Delphi I love Harvey (Bullock, duh) and Zsasz. I would totally watch a quirky sitcom with those two.

 

 

I can just see it: Harvey is on the couch, watching sports and drinking a beer as Victor attempts to sneak out.

HARVEY: Hey Vic, where you goin'? Not off to kill anyone, are you?

ZZAZZ (guiltily): Kill somebody? No! I'm off to buy groceries!

HARVEY: Don't forget to pick up a few cans while you're out!

[later]

ZZAZZ enters, covered in blood

HARVEY: Where's the beer? And why are you covered in blood?

ZZAZZ: Blood? This isn't blood! It's... tomato sauce. See,,, I was in the store... buying groceries when I accidentally knocked over this pile of jars of pasta sauce. I definitely didn't slit anyone's throat!

HARVEY: Jeez, you ask a guy to do one thing...!

(I can see it running for 10 seasons!)

 

 

ratgirlagogo Is Harvey Dent already the DA? I thought he was still some kind of assistant DA - why would he be a big enough deal to be the keynote speaker at the Mayor's inauguration?

 

Maybe all his superiors were assassinated? Seems quite likely in Gotham!

Edited February 25, 2016 by John Potts

[Chas411]

Death by boot heel - that was gruesome. 

[tungteng]

On 8/21/2016 at 4:12 PM, Chas411 said:

Death by boot heel - that was gruesome. 

Late to the party here. Yeah, that was the most gruesome murder I've ever seen in a long time. Her nonchalant expression when she stepped on his throat, as if squishing a bug, magnified the chilling factor.