Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Midnight Lullaby]

Comicfan's spec sounds reasonable. Join me or I don't just kill you, but your father, and out you as the BC, thereby jeopardizing your team.  

 

But yeah, I don't think she'd have to think hard or be torn at all by Oliver wanting her to work for/with him, so I am 99.9% sure it's Ruve and she's the mayor.

IGN wrote this about the promotion:

"There’s another bit of father/daughter drama, but the good kind, as a job promotion opens up for Laurel Lance, and she’s faced with a big decision regarding her superhero/civilian life that father Quentin Lance will have to help her make -- without the use of swords."

They put it as a positive change for LL or so it seems to me.

[Chaser]

I feel like if there were any external factor that tipped the scales for killing off Laurel (as opposed to say, Lance, who would have been a much safer choice), I think it's the fact that MG has been saying this since the dawn of time and no one believed him. He was never going to be free of the "Do you write the show for the show's sake? Or to honor comics? Or to pander to fanbases?" until Laurel was off the show because she was the focal point of those questions.

I get an air of "DO YOU BELIEVE ME NOW?!"

[Midnight Lullaby]

I can't imagine Oliver giving a job offer that would make Laurel choose between civilian life vs superhero life.  He has been fighting to do both since forever...just can't imagine him putting someone else in a position that they would have to pick one.

One on hand I agree with this but on the other I see even less LL going to work for the enemy. Unless forced or as a double agent, but the reviews seem to paint the job offer in a positive light so I don't think that's what's going to happen.

[lemotomato]

Well honestly, unless you are blindly in love with KC or Laurel - you have to admit that the way they have developed her over the years makes her a bad "fit" for the show at this point.  Ironically, by preparing for her death - they have written her better than they ever have.  But if you look at who they have more stories to tell with - clearly they feel they have more room to work with Quentin than Laurel.  I'm surprised they are doing this, but not because it doesn't make sense - just because comics.

Considering how often I've seen "BC is/has been important to GA's hero journey; I can't believe they're killing her off" the last couple days, there are A LOT of people who fall into that category.

[Sakura12]

Maybe they'll go the Buffy route when Anya offered herself to D'Hoffryn and he brought Halfrek, killed her and said "Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain". Quentin will try to offer his life to save Laurel's. But Damian or Malcolm still kill Laurel. 

[statsgirl]

 

One on hand I agree with this but on the other I see even less LL going to work for the enemy. Unless forced or as a double agent, but the reviews seem to paint the job offer in a positive light so I don't think that's what's going to happen.

 

Additionally, why would Ruve offer Laurel such a important job on her staff when she knows Laurel is the BC and wants to take her down?

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to hire someone who is loyal to you to run your organization?

Edited April 5, 2016 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

So if Ruve is the new mayor (which would mean that Oliver has definitely failed the city), do you think she will stick around for next season whatever happens to DD?  Or will she be exposed when he is and Star City will be mayor-less once again?

I think she'll be gone. Which makes this mayor thing even more pointless. The thing is, a mayor who the team knows is bad news, but can't for some reason eliminate promptly would not have been a bad multi-episode arc for season 5. Shades of the one percenters in the first season. However, Ruve has really not made an impression on me, so I want her gone.

[ComicFan777]

Considering how often I've seen "BC is/has been important to GA's hero journey; I can't believe they're killing her off" the last couple days, there are A LOT of people who fall into that category.

 

BC's death will probably be important to GA's hero journey...so in a way, it's sorta correct.

 

[lemotomato]

Maybe they'll go the Buffy route when Anya offered herself to D'Hoffryn and he brought Halfrek, killed her and said "Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain". Quentin will try to offer his life to save Laurel's. But Damian or Malcolm still kill Laurel. 

I don't want that because it would be fridging her.

[tv echo]

I think the key part of MG's comments is that this show is their version and their interpretation of the "Green Arrow mythos" and that they don't feel obligated to follow any one of the various comics versions of the Green Arrow story.

[lemotomato]

I think the key part of MG's comments is that this show is their version and their interpretation of the "Green Arrow mythos" and that they don't feel obligated to follow any one of the various comics versions of the Green Arrow story.

Right, but my point is that as long as they kept Laurel around, the only character who they allowed to more or less fulfill her comic destiny, no one was going to believe him. You never saw anyone ask when Thea was going to contract AIDS, or if Roy was going to get his arm chopped off. It was always only Laurel, for some reason, that was bound to comics, whether it was about her becoming BC, or creating the BoP, or romancing Oliver. And now MG doesn't have to answer that question anymore.

[wonderwall]

After tomorrow we're never going to hear the "because comics" argument any longer. I think that's so beautiful :')

[Sakura12]

Right, but my point is that as long as they kept Laurel around, the only character who they allowed to more or less fulfill her comic destiny, no one was going to believe him. You never saw anyone ask when Thea was going to contract AIDS, or if Roy was going to get his arm chopped off. It was always only Laurel, for some reason, that was bound to comics, whether it was about her becoming BC, or creating the BoP, or romancing Oliver. And now MG doesn't have to answer that question anymore.

 

That's why Laurel's BC stood for Because Comics. 

[Primal Slayer]

Not surprising, Marc confirmed what I thought all along. He wants the perks of what being a superhero/comic adaption gives you in terms of audience but doesn't want to respect where they come from. Oh well.

[spartan]

all these actors who leave their series: Katie cassidy, KATE graham, Shemar morre, Nina Dobrev, Patrick Dempsey, Michael Weatherly. it's a new era now,

SORRY for this post

[BkWurm1]

1 Day, 2 Hours, 24 Minutes, and 30 seconds.

[lemotomato]

That's why Laurel's BC stood for Because Comics.

It's ironic that she's probably getting killed off for precisely that reason-- the insistence to stick to her comic history has hamstrung the writers to the point where she doesn't fit on the show anymore, and they don't know what to do with her. If they had been able to be more flexible, like in seasons 1-2, she could have developed as her own TV version of the character, like Thea did.

[wonderwall]

So someone gave access to the new Arrow episode to a fan and they blabbed who died on twitter... Someone's gonna get sued lol

Edited April 5, 2016 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

The idea that anyone would be so stupid as to give the episode to someone who is going to break the biggest secret of the season on twitter boggles my mind.

Not surprising, Marc confirmed what I thought all along. He wants the perks of what being a superhero/comic adaption gives you in terms of audience but doesn't want to respect where they come from. Oh well.

That seems to be fairly common.  Exhibit A:  Zack Snyder

 

all these actors who leave their series: Katie cassidy, KATE graham, Shemar morre, Nina Dobrev, Patrick Dempsey, Michael Weatherly. it's a new era now,

Shemar Moore, Nina Dobrev and Michael Weatherly all wanted to leave their shows though.  Honestly, I don't understand how Michael Weatherly stood playing a frat boy for so long.

 

Patrick Dempsey got fired for what appears to be behind the scene reasons.

 

ETA:

 

It's ironic that she's probably getting killed off for precisely that reason-- the insistence to stick to her comic history has hamstrung the writers to the point where she doesn't fit on the show anymore, and they don't know what to do with her. If they had been able to be more flexible, like in seasons 1-2, she could have developed as her own TV version of the character, like Thea did.

For that reason, I'm excited to see KC on The Flash to see if that would have worked out better for her.

Edited April 5, 2016 by statsgirl

[lemotomato]

Not surprising, Marc confirmed what I thought all along. He wants the perks of what being a superhero/comic adaption gives you in terms of audience but doesn't want to respect where they come from. Oh well.

Respect *what* about the comics? Comics can have their whole storylines rebooted within a year. Origin stories are changed all the time. Who are you to say the TV *adaptation* doesn't respect the source? Are there not comics where BC doesn't exist or she dies? Maybe the show is "respecting" that storyline?

Comics are not set in stone. They're not an immutable work of fiction like the Lord of the Rings series. The whole idea of "respecting" comics makes no sense to me.

Edited April 5, 2016 by lemotomato

[Midnight Lullaby]

Unless that person gives some details she could only know after watching the episode I don't believe her. We all know, her fans included, that LL is going to die and there are too many trolls looking for attention for me to take her word for it.

[lemotomato]

Yeah, I don't think they gave screeners out. The reporters were invited to a Q&A with MG and WM and to watch the episode. That's why some-- like Laurel Brown-- don't know what's going to happen. They didn't go.

Edited April 5, 2016 by lemotomato

[ComicFan777]

Not surprising, Marc confirmed what I thought all along. He wants the perks of what being a superhero/comic adaption gives you in terms of audience but doesn't want to respect where they come from. Oh well.

 

People readily accept alternate universes like Earth 1, Earth 2,...versions of comic book characters. 

I don't see why a tv adaptation can't be thought of as just another Earth in the multiverse.

 

[Morrigan2575]

That's why Laurel's BC stood for Because Comics.

And very soon she'll be BS...which is kind of what she always was anyway ;-)

[Chaser]

Episode Tease. Thea?

 

I've decided that I don't want Laurel dying to protect her father or Thea. I don't want Lance to hit the bottle or drown in guilt. We have seen that before. I don't Thea to be rage filled either or carry this guilt. 

[Morrigan2575]

So someone gave access to the new Arrow episode to a fan and they blabbed who died on twitter... Someone's gonna get sued lol

While I'm 100% certain BS is gone for good. I kind of think that tweet was a load of crap. They didn't send screeners they had a screening/Q&A in LA.

[AyChihuahua]

One on hand I agree with this but on the other I see even less LL going to work for the enemy. Unless forced or as a double agent, but the reviews seem to paint the job offer in a positive light so I don't think that's what's going to happen.

That's why I think it's weird. Bc I do think the offer is from Ruve, which doesn't seem good.

After tomorrow we're never going to hear the "because comics" argument any longer. I think that's so beautiful :')

When is Ollie gonna get his Arrowcar, like in the comics?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 

[foreverevolving]

So someone gave access to the new Arrow episode to a fan and they blabbed who died on twitter... Someone's gonna get sued lol

 

Okay, so i'm so splurging and buying the expensive Champagne tomorrow, i'm also gonna order in.. i'm thinking Italian and close it all off with a some chocolate souffle :-)

 

Respect *what* about the comics? Comics can have their whole storylines rebooted within a year. Origin stories are changed all the time. Who are you to say the TV *adaptation* doesn't respect the source? Are there not comics where BC doesn't exist or she dies? Maybe the show is "respecting" that storyline?

Comics are not set in stone. They're not an immutable work of fiction like the Lord of the Rings series. The whole idea of "respecting" comics makes no sense to me.

There are actually GA stories without BC, the entire run since the 52 reboot a few years ago never had even a single of a whisper about BC in the GA story, although I think they are having them meet each other in a future issue.

 

Episode Tease. Thea?

 

I've decided that I don't want Laurel dying to protect her father or Thea. I don't want Lance to hit the bottle or drown in guilt. We have seen that before. I don't Thea to be rage filled either or carry this guilt. 

Sounds like Damian, or Malcolm.. My money is on Malcolm, sounds like something he will say. could also be Ruve.

 

 

 

Regarding the mayor storyline: i'm gonna guess that Ruve will be elected, than she either dies or is discovered to be married to Damian, gets kicked from the position, maybe dies at the end of the season and the city asks Oliver to take the position for a short period of them but he does well enough that they ask him to stay for a full term.

[quarks]

On the bright side, the not respecting the comics does mean that no one has called Felicity "Arrowette."

 

....at least so far.

[Guest]

I know Thea/Malcolm looked like they were fighting in some of the promo pictures so I really hope Thea gets to stab him at some point. COME ONNNNNNNN. She's owed. Do it. Do it now!

 

 

Considering how often I've seen "BC is/has been important to GA's hero journey; I can't believe they're killing her off" the last couple days, there are A LOT of people who fall into that category.

 

I still don't understand this because Oliver became GA without Laurel/BC just fine. Did they watch the show? 

[Primal Slayer]

Respect *what* about the comics? Comics can have their whole storylines rebooted within a year. Origin stories are changed all the time. Who are you to say the TV *adaptation* doesn't respect the source? Are there not comics where BC doesn't exist or she dies? Maybe the show is "respecting" that storyline?

Comics are not set in stone. They're not an immutable work of fiction like the Lord of the Rings series. The whole idea of "respecting" comics makes no sense to me.

Who am I say? I am me, I say what I think. That's what opinions are for after all. This isn't a one off character, Black Canary/Dinah Laurel Lance has spent the majority of her run a certain way, these characters don't become beloved for no reason. Batman hasn't become the popular character he is because of that one story where he turns into an actual bat. Superman/Lois don't become popular because of that 1 story where they are together. There is a reason why DC has decided to do Rebirth, their audiences didn't connect with their new versions or stories of majority of their rebooted characters, they've said so themselves. If it doesn't make sense to you that's fine and dandy but it makes sense to me so thats all that matters to me.  

 

If they didn't want to do justice to the character, either don't introduce her at all or wait until you want to do justice to her to introduce her. They didn't have to do it right off the bat, that was their choice and they wonder why they get backlash. It would be one thing if you do a good job of adding onto a character but all they did was shit over her and they finally got around to flushing the toilet. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Primal Slayer

[Guest]

I haven't really been reading any of the interviews or press that has come out of the screening but I did see something about a change in the Diggle/Andy relationship. This makes it sound like Andy is pretty much involved in the death and maybe Diggle is devastated/angry because he hoped he'd changed?

 

I hope this does play into the idea that blood family is not always as good as the family you make for yourselves. Because I really need Oliver and Thea to stop giving Malcolm passes simply because he's Thea's biological dad. I mean, look at Felicity. She sent her own father to prison because it was the right thing to do. About time the Queens grew some of those balls too. LOL.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

If they didn't want to do justice to the character, either don't introduce her at all or wait until you want to do justice to her to introduce her. They didn't have to do it right off the bat, that was their choice and they wonder why they get backlash. 

I would argue that is exactly what they did. With Sara.

 

Also, it's not as if they knew KC would be so totally awful in the role (or so utterly incapable of so much as twirling a stick effectively). They had a plan that they had to CHANGE because their plan didn't work.

[BkWurm1]

Superman/Lois don't become popular because of that 1 story where they are together.

 

Lol, not so sure about this.  Pretty sure they spent like 50 years casually dating and Lois never knowing who he was or them actually being in a serious relationship in the regular comics but in imaginary stories they kept exploring what them really being together would look like. 

[Coop33]

I hope this does play into the idea that blood family is not always as good as the family you make for yourselves. Because I really need Oliver and Thea to stop giving Malcolm passes simply because he's Thea's biological dad. I mean, look at Felicity. She sent her own father to prison because it was the right thing to do. About time the Queens grew some of those balls too. LOL.

 

Haha, fingers crossed. I'm hoping that Andy's sudden yet inevitable betrayal combined with loosing Laurel (I think the show would consider her chosen family, even if they've never really shown it), will help them realize this. 

[BkWurm1]

I suppose the alternative will be Diggle backing Andy and disappearing for a bit. 

[Sakura12]

I think I'm more interested in seeing the reactions from some reviewers over actually watching the episode. I believe some are going to have a meltdown. 

[tarotx]

OMG I spent all day defending Felicity and Olicity. I have been called an Olicity shipper so many times today. It feels like an alternate universe O.o

[Genki]

OMG I spent all day defending Felicity and Olicity. I have been called an Olicity shipper so many times today. It feels like an alternate universe O.o

It might be good for your mental health to stay in a happy safe Arrow related bubble.....

I'm definitely relying on this forum and the media thread; especially @tv echo to chart where it is safe to go.

If they roumours about EPs wanting to get rid of KC in season 2 but couldn't due to network interference are true, I think that compliants that Arrow didn't honour BC are not valid for me. IMO they did a great BC origin story for Sara, (I'm also glad that Sara has her own show to shine as the Canary seperate from Arrow) they just didn't follow one for Dinah Laurel Lance.

I'm looking forward to see what Arrow can be without "because comics" as a reason why the show MUST be written a certain way.

Finally I've decided I will go home first watch Arrow then go to my Dad's for his birthday, priorities people!

[looptab]

Eh..While getting rid of the because comics argument has its perks..we're never going to get rid of the pandering!!! one. That's not something I'm looking forward to - especially when it's not just fans, but critics as well.

Edited April 6, 2016 by looptab

[NumberCruncher]

I'm beyond caring about the "because comics" argument. I'm almost there with the pandering one too. What both of them boil down to is complaining that the show isn't being written the way someone wants it to be written and so they throw those around. Personally I'm hoping they get Laurel's death over with soon so all the people threatening to quit will just get on with it and we can move on to whatever stupid storyline MG has cooked up for us next.

[way2interested]

Eh..While getting rid of the because comics argument has its perks..we're never going to get rid of the pandering!!! one. That's not something I'm looking forward to - especially when it's not just fans, but critics as well.

Yep, Laurel dying is probably going to continue to ignite that flame sadly, or at least I'm preparing for it.

 

In other news, I wonder what Mandy Lane's doing on Arrow.

[Morrigan2575]

So Amber Heard on the Arrow set. Just visiting? I can't believe they'd have Mera on Arrow. I also don't see them letting her play another DC character.

ETA: that doesn't look like it's on the set. It looks like it's in the airport, same for Tom M.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Im going with just visiting.

[AyChihuahua]

Tom M? Do you mean Tom Amandes? What would he be visiting, i.e., NOT Arrow, for?

 

If he's on in the final eps I'm hardcore going with him kidnapping Felicity at the end of the season.

[apinknightmare]

ETA: that doesn't look like it's on the set. It looks like it's in the airport, same for Tom M.

 

Yeah, I think they were all at the airport, haha. 

[way2interested]

EK and TA probably at least met each other during 412 since they were both in it, but even at an airport I gotta think that it's TA coming back for Arrow. Like AyChihuahua said, what else would he be traveling for? And first EK's comments about the Calculator coming back and then doing a Snapchat with TA? I'm going with being optimistic and thinking that he's in 422/423. Maybe helping to set up s5's big bad?

[apinknightmare]

No one's doubting that TA is probably there for Arrow - the question was whether Amber Heard was, and it seems like probably not. 

[wonderwall]

No one's doubting that TA is probably there for Arrow - the question was whether Amber Heard was, and it seems like probably not. 

nooooooooooooooooooooo :p

[catrox14]

Okay, well I've been convinced.

It's a great day in Star City!!