Spoiler Discussion Thread

[calliope1975]

Oh man, I was blubbering mess like every 5 mins during The Body. I've never actually been able to watch it again though.

Since I don't really care for the character that's dying, I'm not sure if I'm emotionally invested enough to get weepy. Tbh, I feel pretty disconnected from all of the characters except Felicity right now. I don't dislike Quentin as much as I did at the end of season 3, but I don't really care about him either. He's just kind of - there.

 

I randomly caught The Body about 3 weeks ago while channel surfing and tears just started streaming during that Anya speech. 

 

I'm have a lot of big personal decisions to make very soon and am generally emotionally unstable on the regular, so I've changed my mind. I just might be a weepy mess if the death is done well. I hope it is good. So many times Arrow's writing makes me roll my eyes; I'd like to be emotionally affected. 

[Sunshine]

Guess it was cut, that sucks. Means even less Felicity.

Interesting...isn't this the episode KC had to come back and do some pick up scenes? 

[BkWurm1]

I'm one of Felicity's biggest fans, and I want her as far away as possible from this episode. She'll be back in a big way for the rest of the season.

 

 

If it is Felicity telling Curtis about the downside and upside of vigilante life, it may fit better into the episode after the death.  I hope that's the case.Or at least that we get it as an extra in the DVDs.

If it was just a scene talking about what Curtis might face, oh well, no huge loss, but I was counting on that scene to FINALLY get deeper insight into what Felicity was feeling beyond just the surface stuff we've seen.  I wanted her to have someone we saw her talking to about her relationship and that seems like it will never happen now.  But as pointed out, for all we know, it's a good thing. 

 

I randomly caught The Body about 3 weeks ago while channel surfing and tears just started streaming during that Anya speech. 

 

I'm have a lot of big personal decisions to make very soon and am generally emotionally unstable on the regular, so I've changed my mind. I just might be a weepy mess if the death is done well. I hope it is good. So many times Arrow's writing makes me roll my eyes; I'd like to be emotionally affected. 

I have an on going philosophy that it is healthy to take the chance anytime you can to cry over fictional things.  You still get the chemical benefits without that actual lingering problems.  Makes real life easier to handle IMO.  Also makes for a handy excuse as for why I occasionally well up over commercials.  ;)

Edited April 5, 2016 by BkWurm1

[foreverevolving]

Someone write this fic :p

ohh! thank you!

Yea someone do it, in the evil version. I have zero time to do it myself.

 

I really, really! wanna have an AU E-2 Felicity in the flarrowverse in full goth look with Oliver by her side, he can have a different name than the Green Arrow, something similar but different enough.

[pivot]

I almost never cry at shows. Can't offhand remember the last time I did...maybe when Buffy died in S5?

 

Cool, I took Thursday morning off work, hitting the liquor store tomorrow!

I ugly sobbed when Buffy's mom died. That episode was heartbreaking. When Buffy died, meh.

I am so excited Echo is going to be a series regular. Love his chemistry with the whole cast and like that he is Felicity's friend. Now, I'd be ok with them upping Donna to a series regular as well. Get rid of Malcolm and I'll be content.

I vote no on Lyla. I love Diggle but Lyla is boring as hell. Not sure if it is the actress or the character that is a complete dud, but she just doesn't work for me.

[looptab]

My gut says it means he's in the Bunker and Felicity stays in the CEO office for a long while at least. 

 

I will be ok once they get to a point where she's back involved regularly with the team but not I'm not feeling like that happens any time soon.  :(  They are not subtle about making room on the team. 

I have no idea, we still know too little. Hope that's not the case, though.

 

As for the episode, do they mean tears of joy? Count me in with those affected by other characters' reaction rather than the death itself.

About GATV's article about Arrow running out of gas: the show hasn't really picked up until ep 18 for the past 3 seasons as well, so..? First time TV watchers there?

 

I agree that it's cool there's less Felicity, a little less cool when people describe this as the best episode of the season and she's not there, though.

Edited April 5, 2016 by looptab

[BkWurm1]

Not gonna lie.  Evil Oliver would be hella hot. Well, amend that to evil Oliver having fun. 

I have no idea, we still know too little. Hope that's not the case, though.

 

As for the episode, do they mean tears of joy? Count me in with those affected by other characters' reaction rather than the death itself.

About GATV's article about Arrow running out of gas: the show hasn't really picked up until ep 18 for the past 3 seasons as well, so..? First time TV watchers there?

 

I agree that it's cool there's less Felicity, a little less cool when people describe this as the best episode of the season and she's not there, though.

There were enough saying that about 4-9 that it doesn't bother me.  It's all hyperbole. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by BkWurm1

[pivot]

Is there any where in the Arrow section where we can talk about behind the scenes stuff with KC? Because I'd love to read more gossip about it and ask questions. This is the first show since Buffy/Angel where I cared about behind-the-scenes stuff. But, unlike Angel, it looks like I'll get what I want (still bitter they wrote off Cordelia and brought in Spike).

[looptab]

Wait, saying what? Hahah.

[Morrigan2575]

Is there any where in the Arrow section where we can talk about behind the scenes stuff with KC? Because I'd love to read more gossip about it and ask questions. This is the first show since Buffy/Angel where I cared about behind-the-scenes stuff. But, unlike Angel, it looks like I'll get what I want (still bitter they wrote off Cordelia and brought in Spike).

Forever pissed at that.

[Artsda]

Kind of funny they didn't even wait for the series regular they fired to be gone before they announced a new series regular. May be they thought it would look less like a replacement this way.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Artsda

[Belinea]

I don't know how to feel about all of this. Frankly, I'd rather keep Laurel as BC than have her be replaced by an E2 persona. If that is what they are actually going for. This season has to be the first one in which LL actually works for me, and I don't get the point. Because after all they did to try and make her relevant, they finally succeeded to turn her around and to bring her in as a new character doesn't sit well with me. 

[bijoux]

If #Poppy does die in 418, she has to be the most pointless character in the history of characters. What even did she achieve? What was her purpose? LOL. We'll never know...

Sure it does if Oliver kills her. I will honestly keep harping on this until I am proven wrong. It woukd just be such an easy fix for this year's flashbacks and propel Oliver quickly to what he needs to become before returning home. I'm thinking there's no way these flashbacks completely parallel the present. He can't have been on the island for six months at this point. Maybe next year's flashbacks will cover more than a year to catch up to where we need to be by the pilot.

[looptab]

Wait, since the BTS stuff got confusing for 418 and 419 plus the news that PB is going to be in Legends - are there going to be Lance family flashbacks or not?

[Velocity23]

 

I don't know how to feel about all of this. Frankly, I'd rather keep Laurel as BC than have her be replaced by an E2 persona. If that is what they are actually going for. This season has to be the first one in which LL actually works for me, and I don't get the point. Because after all they did to try and make her relevant, they finally succeeded to turn her around and to bring her in as a new character doesn't sit well with me.

They are not bringing her back to Arrow.

[wonderwall]

Wait, since the BTS stuff got confusing for 418 and 419 plus the news that PB is going to be in Legends - are there going to be Lance family flashbacks or not?

 

I think that first BTS photo of Lance we saw was actually for LoT and not Arrow.

[bijoux]

Wait, since the BTS stuff got confusing for 418 and 419 plus the news that PB is going to be in Legends - are there going to be Lance family flashbacks or not?

There's certainly Tommy's funeral in 419. And we saw PB with KC with the wig, didn't we?

[Morrigan2575]

They are not bringing her back to Arrow.

Or Flash or LoT...

[lemotomato]

Wait, since the BTS stuff got confusing for 418 and 419 plus the news that PB is going to be in Legends - are there going to be Lance family flashbacks or not?

My guess is that 418 is going to have Oliver's island flashbacks (GATV's preview of the episode mentioned them) and 419 will be Lance family flashbacks.

[Password]

Oliver's island flashbacks and Lance family flashbacks.

 

My favourite things.

[bijoux]

Ah, right. They did say the flashbacks would tie into the present. I doubt it will be anything beyong the stupid, ugly totem.

[BkWurm1]

1 Day. 12 Hours. 32 Minutes. 35 Seconds.

[tv echo]

In that EW interview, MG mentioned that they didn't expect "the reaction to the grave to be as profound or as scintillating as it turned out to be" because they've killed off a character every season and therefore viewers should know that someone was likely to die in S4.  MG added: "The big surprise would be, in season 5, if we didn’t kill anybody."

 

Given the precedent, I wonder who will die in S5?  Assuming Laurel is in the grave (yes, I still have a 1% doubt that the EPs will surprise us), I love or like all of the remaining cast members.

Edited April 5, 2016 by tv echo

[Guest]

Sure it does if Oliver kills her. I will honestly keep harping on this until I am proven wrong. It woukd just be such an easy fix for this year's flashbacks and propel Oliver quickly to what he needs to become before returning home. I'm thinking there's no way these flashbacks completely parallel the present. He can't have been on the island for six months at this point. Maybe next year's flashbacks will cover more than a year to catch up to where we need to be by the pilot.

 

Ooooh, yes, I like that idea. Part of the reason why this year's flashbacks haven't worked for me (aside from them generally being snoozeville) is that Oliver kinda feels like present-day Oliver, to an extent. I expected him to be much darker by now, and have problems trusting and caring about people. Not seen any of that. So yeah, I need something that turns him, so to speak. And soon. 

[Sakura12]

They seem to be afraid to show Oliver being really dark in the past for some reason. He was heading there in season 1-3, then they took him back to present day Oliver. He has 1 year to become the kill every bad guy lone wolf Oliver that we first saw in season 1. They are not afraid to continue to show Sara's darkness why can't they show his? 

 

Speaking of that from the last episode of Lot, I think Sara/CL would've made a great villain. It does make me want to have seen Sara and Slade working together in season 2 against Oliver. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Sakura12

[looptab]

In that EW interview, MG mentioned that they didn't expect "the reaction to the grave to be as profound or as scintillating as it turned out to be" because they've killed off a character every season and therefore viewers should know that someone was likely to die in S4.  MG added: "The big surprise would be, in season 5, if we didn’t kill anybody."

 

I found this really hard to believe. He didn't expect it? He was counting on it. Besides, after 4 years - and after seeing the kind of investment people have in this show, does he really want us to believe that he wasn't expecting the promise of a character dying to elicit strong feelings in the fans? Please.

Edited April 5, 2016 by looptab

[thegirlsleuth]

 

Speaking of that from the last episode of Lot, I think Sara/CL would've made a great villain. It does make me want to have seen Sara and Slade working together in season 2 against Oliver. 

 

At the end of season two, I was sort of hoping that they'd have Oliver try to bring Sara into the light, but ending up with the two of them pulling each other back into the darkness. It would even work with Laurel's journey, especially if Sara went briefly dark.  I always wanted more of the Oliver/Sara relationship, even if it was just the two of them finding their different paths from their shared experience.  

 

I'm wondering that now that they have to implement their plan of Oliver going dark in the flashbacks they're flinching.  

[Morrigan2575]

Honestly, I think they've lost the flashback narrative.  I think it got washed about by cool new shiny storylines.  Oh look we have magic now, let's make the flashback's about magic island and have the totem tie into both storylines.  

[Chaser]

Whenever I see a tweet about how heartbreaking and emotional the next Arrow will be, I'm just reminded of the other times screeners have said things like that and yet I never see the episode like they do. Maybe it did will be different this time.

A few people on Twitter said Echo didn't film for 4x18, but he did for 4x19. It's possible they messed up the description. I'm curious about what Felicity will be doing cause occurring to the screeners she is in the episode.

Curious if they are trying to dampen the backlash by announcing KC is making an appearance on The Flash and Vixen the same week Laurel is killed off.

For all those worried about GATV positive review, if that were to mean Laurel doesn't die, one of the reporters was asked about spoilers and he said he can't give any but there are plenty around the Internet. I'm assuming he is talking about Laurel in the grave.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Chaser

[bijoux]

A few people on Twitter said Echo didn't film for 4x18, but he did for 4x19. It's possible they messed up the description. I'm curious about what she will be doing cause occurring to the screeners she is in the episode.

 

She as in Felicity? What's the word on Twitter?

[Chaser]

Yeah, Felicity I mean.

People were just asking if Felicity was in the episode. A few of the screeners confirmed she was.

[Sakura12]

At the end of season two, I was sort of hoping that they'd have Oliver try to bring Sara into the light, but ending up with the two of them pulling each other back into the darkness. It would even work with Laurel's journey, especially if Sara went briefly dark.  I always wanted more of the Oliver/Sara relationship, even if it was just the two of them finding their different paths from their shared experience.  

 

I'm wondering that now that they have to implement their plan of Oliver going dark in the flashbacks they're flinching.  

 

It could've been interesting to see Oliver fail at helping Slade but able to get a tiny bit through to Sara. CL did a good job with looking dead in the eyes but not look like a robot that KC manages to look like. Although Laurel has no reason to look in dead in the eyes, I don't understand her acting choices. 

 

As for the boring island stuff this season, they could've had Oliver start to identify with that group and believe in what they are doing even with the stupid magic crap. Instead they are showing his hero complex which is a far cry from the man we met in season 1. The Oliver they are showing now doesn't look like he has the singled minded mission to kill every bad guy that crosses his path. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

I'm hoping Oliver kills Poppy and goes off and trains with Argus for almost a year (I can believe the mess of a Flashback s4 only look place over a couple of months) and then he can he much more trained and under cover in Russia when season 5 comes around. 

[Password]

Now that you mention it, considering how amazing Oliver was at fighting in season 1 he'll have to be intensely trained in the season 5 flashbacks. ALOT (hehe) by hopefully some Bratva assassin type person.

[foreverevolving]

I'm hoping Oliver kills Poppy and goes off and trains with Argus for almost a year (I can believe the mess of a Flashback s4 only look place over a couple of months) and then he can he much more trained and under cover in Russia when season 5 comes around. 

That is a good point, no way did the S04 flashbacks took place over the course of one year. hack not even 9 months.

[Sakura12]

Of course the Oliver they are showing now only looks like he trained for a year. 

[bijoux]

That's what I'm saying. I don't know if it was in this thread or some other, but I do expect the flashbacks to span more than a year next season. There has just not been enough going on in the flashbacks to support them taking more than a few months tops. In fact, I'd put them at about a month or two.

[Guest]

Yeah, IMO, s4 flashbacks have basically covered about a month, if that. I don't think even s3 flashbacks were a whole year. I'd say a few months at most. So there's time for Oliver to get darker. But I need to see more of it soon.

On another note, do you think we'll ever see Anarky again? Because they set up some sort of 'link' between him and Thea, for want of a better explanation, and he just got away, didn't he? They left that very open and I wonder if it will come into play again.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Guest

[Morrigan2575]

Is this new? Does it mean Papa Smoak is back to film 422/423?

https://twitter.com/buffy_smoak/status/717365768598331395

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, he just posted that.

[Morrigan2575]

Cool. Now i wonder if it means anything. LOL

[Belinea]

Although the death is going to be permanent, Arrow's showrunners promise that the character will still remain a big part of the story going forward.

"Dead is not goodbye," Guggenheim said. "We definitely recognize across all three shows [Arrow, The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow] that when we kill off a character, it means something different now. I'm not going to put a qualitative judgment on whether it's more or less impactful. I'll leave that up to the audience. But certainly, we acknowledge that there's a difference. Arrow much more so than Flash or Legends, for a lot of reasons, it traffics in death. For better or for worse, death is a part of the show. What we're finding as we're pushing into season five, the show has to evolve. The concept of death on the show is evolving and changing as we've seen with Sara Lance. As the show has evolved, so has death."

 

So what does death mean? Nothing?

[Velocity23]

I think they were referencing Flash and LOT. There are always alternate worlds and time travel.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah. He basically said they are going to deal with the death even on LoT and The Flash because now they are variables that need to be explored. So he basically confirmed LL is the death and despite it being permanent we will see another version of her on the Flash and she will have an impact on LoT too.

[Morrigan2575]

 

So what does death mean? Nothing?

I didn't get that interpretation at all.  He's saying death is real, THE death is permenant.  However, with LoT doing Time Travel and Flash having Alternate Earths there's more to death than just killing the character off.  They're going to have to answer the question of AU Laurel (hence 222 Black Siren and probably death) as well as the question of time travel shenanigans saving Laurel.  Hence we know that LoT will have a scene of Sara/Lance visiting Laurel's grave and probably discussing the possibility of using the Wave Rider to save Laurel.

 

As for Death not being a goodbye, well that's probably the same thing as Tommy in S2.  He was dead but all of Oliver's journey in S2 was shaped around Tommy

Edited April 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

I got that impression too. We will see Team Arrow dealing with Laurel's death and probably see Sara dealing with her sister's death on LoT, While Flash will see Earth 2 Laurel and probably kill her off as well. So permanent death for Laurel all across the board. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Sakura12

[Guest]

Oooh, I hope that means Papa Smoak is back, unless it's old. But it felt like they barely even started Felicity's dad storyline. It had so much potential. I hope there's more.

[foreverevolving]

Oooh, I hope that means Papa Smoak is back, unless it's old. But it felt like they barely even started Felicity's dad storyline. It had so much potential. I hope there's more.

mmm well.. Damian seems to be escaping prison this coming episode.. I wonder if on the way he will release other villain among them Felicity's dad. 

[nksarmi]

Of course the Oliver they are showing now only looks like he trained for a year. 

 

This is one of the reasons why I've relented on the "training" they showed us for Laurel becoming BC - and also why I can BS that Oliver could ever - EVER - beat Nyssa. From the flashbacks - Oliver has not practices archery nearly enough to be the Green Arrow and while he has a few fighting moves, he still isn't the fighter he was in season one. I'm sorry but what they showed with Slade and Shado on the island was just a start.  I mean sure, it's more than Laurel's background in self-defense, boxing lessons, and training with Nyssa but not a ton more and it certainly can't hold a finger to Nyssa who trained her whole life and Sara who spent years with the League.  So if they don't want me to believe there is some seriously sexist or lazy writing when it comes to Oliver being "better" than Nyssa - they better show him doing some intense combat training in the flashbacks at some point.  Or Nyssa needs to kick his ass in some future episode, smile at him and say "I could always do that. I was just holding back."

[SonofaBiscuit]

From that Hollywood Reporter interview:

 

Mericle and Guggenheim said the writers didn't want to kill off the character in question, but they felt they needed to pay off the storyline set up in the premiere. At the time of the premiere, the writers hadn't yet figured out who they were going to put in the grave.

 

Oh, come on MG.  We know that nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to write in the flashforward grave storyline.  You killed "the character in question" (aka Laurel) because you wanted to!  

 

Also, he seems quite annoyed that the death was spoiled by the paparazzi.  He doesn't deny the fact that the spoilers are true, though.  He just mentions how uncool it was for stuff to leak.

Edited April 6, 2016 by SonofaBiscuit