Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AES]

Felicity has already had a hell season. I rather she not end it kidnapped.

I think the reason that there's a desire to see her kidnapped is that the hell she's been through this season hasn't done her character justice at all, in terms of both screentime and emotions. Her wheelchair storyline wasn't treated properly, her storyline with her dad was DEFINITELY not given adequate screentime, her POV following finding out about Oliver's son wasn't shown the way it should have been....essentially, the writers heard the audience's pleas for more content for Felicity, and so they shoved too much into Season 4 without dealing with any of it properly.

 

I personally WANTED the writers to wait till Season 5 to bring Felicity's father in. I felt that they introduced him solely due to the demand of the audience, and therefore the little arc was rushed, poorly executed, and completely out of place. 

 

I think that, as with most requests for various storylines for Felicity, it comes from one place - a desire to see her worth and the love that the audience has for her translated into a really good, fully fleshed out arc for her that does her character justice. If she theoretically would be kidnapped as the season ender, there's hope for that, if just through the fact that ending the season with her character disappearing would assign tremendous importance to the event and to her character in itself. Being the cliffhanger following a season by disappearing is a big deal, and it would be a bigger storyline than anything she's gotten - and that includes getting shot as the cliffhanger following the midseason finale of Season 4. 

[ComicFan777]

I think the problem with having Felicity getting kidnapped over the summer is the same one that was seen from her kidnapping in Arrow comics 2.5.  We missed the whole thing because it happened during the summer - we missed the urgency and angst that Oliver and team has in searching for her.  The difficulty the team had without her, but also her snark, strength, and struggle dealing with the kidnappers that I would have loved to see onscreen - EBR would have killed it.  It was handled really well in 2.5, so much so that I wished that it was shown onscreen as a part of season 3 instead of in comics.  If we have another Felicity kidnapping over the summer, then we really miss out on it again.  I think it would be more effective if we get to see how Felicity handles the kidnappers in the show instead of using it as a cliffhanger device.  I would like to see her using her smarts saving herself while the team scrambles to find her - because we know the person who can find Felicity is Felicity.  The kidnapping arc would be great to show how she can be her own hero.

Edited March 20, 2016 by ComicFan777

[apinknightmare]

I think the reason that there's a desire to see her kidnapped is that the hell she's been through this season hasn't done her character justice at all, in terms of both screentime and emotions. Her wheelchair storyline wasn't treated properly, her storyline with her dad was DEFINITELY not given adequate screentime, her POV following finding out about Oliver's son wasn't shown the way it should have been....essentially, the writers heard the audience's pleas for more content for Felicity, and so they shoved too much into Season 4 without dealing with any of it properly.

 

I honestly don't mean this as snark, at all, but I think the show has a pretty consistent track record of rushing through storylines and not really giving most of them their due, especially in the last two seasons. They try to do too much with too many people. Even with one of them leaving, I don't think this that's something that's going to change anytime soon. 

[AES]

I honestly don't mean this as snark, at all, but I think the show has a pretty consistent track record of rushing through storylines and not really giving most of them their due, especially in the last two seasons. They try to do too much with too many people. Even with one of them leaving, I don't think this that's something that's going to change anytime soon. 

Oh, I don't deny that. They do it to all the characters. But it's simply easier to spot when it's a fan favorite, particularly when said fan favorite didn't even get any semblance of a backstory till Season 3. 

[apinknightmare]

Oh, I don't deny that. They do it to all the characters. But it's simply easier to spot when it's a fan favorite, particularly when said fan favorite didn't even get any semblance of a backstory till Season 3. 

 

I get you, but I was responding more to this (which I probably should've quoted): 

 

I think that, as with most requests for various storylines for Felicity, it comes from one place - a desire to see her worth and the love that the audience has for her translated into a really good, fully fleshed out arc for her that does her character justice. If she theoretically would be kidnapped as the season ender, there's hope for that..."

 

I don't think there is hope for a really good, fully fleshed out arc for anyone who isn't Oliver - and at this point I don't think there's much hope for one for him, either, even though he has the best shot at it. The show's track record for giving things time to breathe isn't good. And probably won't be getting any better. 

[AES]

I get you, but I was responding more to this (which I probably should've quoted): 

 

I think that, as with most requests for various storylines for Felicity, it comes from one place - a desire to see her worth and the love that the audience has for her translated into a really good, fully fleshed out arc for her that does her character justice. If she theoretically would be kidnapped as the season ender, there's hope for that..."

 

I don't think there is hope for a really good, fully fleshed out arc for anyone who isn't Oliver - and at this point I don't think there's much hope for one for him, either, even though he has the best shot at it. The show's track record for giving things time to breathe isn't good. And probably won't be getting any better. 

I won't stop hoping :) 

[BkWurm1]

When I first thought about the season ending with Felicity gone, the idea was that that Felicity would leave to protect someone, basically coerced by her father for some combo of forced bonding time and needing her help.  The twist being that this time she's the one with the secrets and she'd be the one that leaves rather than Oliver.  Maybe she would flat out lie and leave or maybe she'd be kidnapped only for everyone else to think she choose to leave for reasons.  Either way, Oliver would think he's been rejected. 

 

It's not that I even want the storyline, just that it would be as opposite of the season opener as possible and something they've never done before.  And yeah, people would talk all summer long because Felicity sparks interest. 

[statsgirl]

I thought there might be a "Felicity is gone" storyline over the summer, but now that she's had her shooting/paralysis/chip storyline, I think the odds of giving her a Missing arc have dropped considerably.

 

Maybe Diggle is the one who goes missing because he got too nosy around HIVE.

[bijoux]

What's the difference between the Justice Society and the Justice League? Did I just look down the rabbit's hole?

[Danny Franks]

Guys I have the perfect Bruce Springsteen song title for the Episode 22 Title: Dancing in the Dark or Darhk!

You're Welcome !

 

Not Darhkness on the Edge of Town?

[Velocity23]

They already used Darkness on the Edge of Town for s1e22. Gave us this gem

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spartan]

LOL and olicity weeding coming soon, and ressurection of Laure lance in coming soon in season 5, SAVE BLACK CANARY 

[tv echo]

Based on its title (Monument Point) and Billy Joel song pick (Got to Begin Again), as well as the EPs' tendency to take inspiration from the comics (but not copy them exactly), here's my speculation on 421...

 

421 will be about rebuilding Star City after it's almost destroyed by HIVE's Genesis Project.  Everyone in the city will pitch in, including the SCPD, and they'll also get help from ARGUS (headed by Lyla). However, Darhk and HIVE will still be at large and a danger to the city, even though their Genesis Project has been thwarted.

 

I also speculate that maybe Sara and Ray will return and that, although they won't stay permanently, they'll tell Oliver that they'll always come back if he needs them (therefore eliminating the "Star City: 2046" future timeline).  Sara will visit her father and sister (at least the grave of one of them - yes, I'm still hedging my bets).  Ray will tell Felicity that Palmer Tech is now more her company than his and that she should rename it.

 

Maybe in addition to Sara and Ray, other Legends also accompany them, and perhaps even Barry makes a cameo appearance.  They get together and, similar to what ComicFan777 suggested above, they form a Justice Society but the idea will come from Oliver, after talking to Felicity and Diggle/Lyla. (Felicity will have talked to him about better communicating with his superhero allies across the country.  Diggle/Lyla will have talked to him about better coordinating efforts with ARGUS.)  Then the Legends scatter to seek out other heroes across the country who might ally with them and become members.  That search could lead some of them to another Big Bad that sets up S2 of LoT.

 

Then 422 and 423 will be a two-parter about TGA defeating Darhk and HIVE, and perhaps also setting up the Big Bad for S5.  I don't think that Darhk will survive to S5 because there was that interview with WM where she said that part of the reason they didn't make Felicity's father tied to Darhk or HIVE is because that would've made it harder to bring him back in S5. (TVLine article, page 30 of Spoilers thread)

 

ETA: In response to bijoux's question, here's some fans' answers regarding the difference between the Justice Society of America (JSA) and the Justice League of America (JLA)...
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/1unvzm/dc_what_are_the_differences_between_jsa_and_jla/

Edited March 20, 2016 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

 

LOL and olicity weeding coming soon, and ressurection of Laure lance in coming soon in season 5, SAVE BLACK CANARY

Wedding 100th episode. Its guaranteed to get them the most exposure possible during the crossover. Laurel Lance is gone forever.

[Primal Slayer]

What's the difference between the Justice Society and the Justice League? Did I just look down the rabbit's hole?

Justice Society was for the older war time heroes and legacy charecters. Justice League had more modern, cool, heroes. Originally the Justice Society was the Earth 2 version of the Justice League.

[BkWurm1]

I thought there might be a "Felicity is gone" storyline over the summer, but now that she's had her shooting/paralysis/chip storyline, I think the odds of giving her a Missing arc have dropped considerably.

 

Maybe Diggle is the one who goes missing because he got too nosy around HIVE.

Well, I'm still wondering if that line about Diggle worrying over Baby Sara growing up in Start City won't lead to something. I suppose it really is Diggle's turn to leave. Oliver and Felicity had theirs.

I'd be good with reunited Olicity having to say goodbye to a weary Diggle who takes his brother's [death,betrayal,salvation, second chance-insert one] as a reminder to put his family first and maybe follows Lyla to a new job location? As long as she's heading up Argus, they aren't quitting the business, but if they get roughed up again, maybe they both will remember their vows last year about not letting Sara grow up without parents and do try to make a clean break. (But we rope them back in by fall!)

[Morrigan2575]

I really don't think the show runners look at Arrow and go who's turn is it to leave Starling this season? As recently as last month WM was still talking about "getting to the Oliver of it" when planning a story. To be honest I think the pattern is whether Oliver stays or goes, Thea leaving in S2 was incidental.

S1 - Oliver leaves

S2 - Oliver stays

S3 - Oliver leaves

S4 - Oliver stays?

S5 - Oliver leaves? Would probably tie in nicely with Flashback ending with Oliver being rescued

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, I was wondering if there might be a pattern in his coming and goings, but "Oliver Stays" for this year which fits the pattern, doesn't preclude, anyone else going.

I feel like because the big death happens early enough that they will be looking for a way to make the finale have its own upset, but don't think death would be there go to card again, so sending someone away makes sense, even if it's temporary.

I suppose since seasons 1-3 were suppose to be there own trilogy that season 4 could be equated to season 1 which would mean resetting the pattern with Oliver again leaving. Maybe they'd undercut his goodbye to William by having him to hang with the kid for the summer.

Side note: the more I think about his goodbye slash I am the Green Arrow message to William, the stupider I think it is. Tell the teen that's probably resented his father's abandonment for years his most dangerous secret? That sounds really not bright.

[ComicFan777]

Side note: the more I think about his goodbye slash I am the Green Arrow message to William, the stupider I think it is. Tell the teen that's probably resented his father's abandonment for years his most dangerous secret? That sounds really not bright.

 

...maybe that's why he gets outed in Star City 2046 - team up of Grant Wilson and unhappy William in the future...

 

[AyChihuahua]

Side note: the more I think about his goodbye slash I am the Green Arrow message to William, the stupider I think it is. Tell the teen that's probably resented his father's abandonment for years his most dangerous secret? That sounds really not bright.

I could probably, not even exaggerating, name at least 20 instances of idiocy and awfulness (mostly from Oliver, with a strong assist by Baby Mama) about that storyline. Telling this really unintelligent and probably resentful and immature 18-year-old (and as I've said, why is he in so much danger at 17 7/8ths, but not at 18, DUMB FOREVER) that hey, this is your dad, who btw is married to a billionaire while you're living an at most middle-class lifestyle, who your mom lied to about your existence for ten years - oh, and your mom turned down at least $1M which would have paid for that summer camp your mom said no to and also gotten you a truly bitchin' car when you turned 16 - then who, when he found out about you, sent you away, but was cool keeping his kids with his wife, bc they're his real family, is also a superhero with lots of enemies and people who'd probably love to kill/kidnap you to get back at him. Oh, and the mere existence of a video confessing this, which endangers Oliver AND all his teammates and his kid.

 

So right there, just from the video, at least nine levels of idiocy and bullshit.

[catrox14]

I know that Oliver recorded that video but do we know if he ever actually sent it? I really can't remember.

ETA I mean is it just on his hard drive still or did he send to someone?

Edited March 20, 2016 by catrox14

[Morrigan2575]

I know that Oliver recorded that video but do we know if he ever actually sent it? I really can't remember.ETA I mean is it just on his hard drive still or did he send to someone?

The assumption is that he gave a physical copy to Samantha before they left for parts unknown. However, we don't know for sure but, really none of that matters. This was simply an emotional scene to give closure to the William storyline and provide a dramatic scene for the Olicity breakup and Felicity walking again. Edited March 20, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

Yeah, I know WHY the scene existed narratively.

That's not my point.

The discussion was that Oliver is an idiot for making the video. He did so in an emotional moment that he might think better of and he might very well delete the thing before letting anyone else see it.

So that's why it mattered to me whether he provided it to anyone else.

[Lokiberry]

He could always give it to Sara the next time she passes through, and have her take it forward the ten or so years and hand it off to the kid. She just needs to make sure Rip Hunter doesn't get hold of it, because he'd show it to Vandal Savage or Darkseid, or whoever the hell the Big Bad is for next season.

 

My point is that Oliver is far from the only dumbass in the flarrowverse.

[ComicFan777]

He could always give it to Sara the next time she passes through, and have her take it forward the ten or so years and hand it off to the kid. She just needs to make sure Rip Hunter doesn't get hold of it, because he'd show it to Vandal Savage or Darkseid, or whoever the hell the Big Bad is for next season.

 

My point is that Oliver is far from the only dumbass in the flarrowverse.

 

It would be kinda funny if that is why it was an important mention in Star City 2046 that everything could have been caused because Sara and Ray didn't come back.

 

If Sara and Ray didn't come back, left to his own devices, Oliver gives the video to Samantha in the present - it somehow gets into the wrong hands and then he gets outed leading to Star City 2046 timeline.

If Sara and Ray came back, he could give them the video, they timehop and give it to William in the future, and no one intercepts it - happier timeline.

 

Having Sara and Ray coming back had nothing to do with having them fight alongside the Arrow, it just boiled down to them being good messengers. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by ComicFan777

[AES]

I think the problem with having Felicity getting kidnapped over the summer is the same one that was seen from her kidnapping in Arrow comics 2.5.  We missed the whole thing because it happened during the summer - we missed the urgency and angst that Oliver and team has in searching for her.  The difficulty the team had without her, but also her snark, strength, and struggle dealing with the kidnappers that I would have loved to see onscreen - EBR would have killed it.  It was handled really well in 2.5, so much so that I wished that it was shown onscreen as a part of season 3 instead of in comics.  If we have another Felicity kidnapping over the summer, then we really miss out on it again.  I think it would be more effective if we get to see how Felicity handles the kidnappers in the show instead of using it as a cliffhanger device.  I would like to see her using her smarts saving herself while the team scrambles to find her - because we know the person who can find Felicity is Felicity.  The kidnapping arc would be great to show how she can be her own hero.

Oooo yes, I agree. 

[catrox14]

They already used Darkness on the Edge of Town for s1e22. Gave us this gem

 

 

 

 

 

 

OMG Look at these two idiots! Oliver making heart eyes with that teensy little smile. AHHH...it's too cute....

I will never be convinced that he wasn't carrying a torch for her since the moment she side-eyed him about his bullet ridden laptop.....

Edited March 20, 2016 by catrox14

[wonderwall]

I wonder.... Because everyone knows that Oliver is the GA do you guys think there's a possibility he'll go public with this info at the end of the season? Sort of like a cliffhanger for next? I'd much prefer that than anything to do with Felicity tbh

[Midnight Lullaby]

I watched that Oliver/Felicity scene in the elevator on YouTube and I got curious and started watching the show. Before knowing what it was about I would have bet those two were supposed to be the show's couple from the start and it was all planned. LOL, it seems I gave the writers too much credit, at least for season 1.

I think Felicity has been through a lot this year so I'd like the season to end with a cliffhanger about Oliver or Diggle rather than about her. I'd like though an arc next season about her working with her father after getting amnesia or being blackmailed, but preferably amnesia. I find the idea of (temporary) evil Felicity interesting.

[jay741982]

I watched that Oliver/Felicity scene in the elevator on YouTube and I got curious and started watching the show. Before knowing what it was about I would have bet those two were supposed to be the show's couple from the start and it was all planned. LOL, it seems I gave the writers too much credit, at least for season 1.

I think Felicity has been through a lot this year so I'd like the season to end with a cliffhanger about Oliver or Diggle rather than about her. I'd like though an arc next season about her working with her father after getting amnesia or being blackmailed, but preferably amnesia. I find the idea of (temporary) evil Felicity interesting.

Ugh I don't want Amnesia Felicity at all.

[Hipkarma]

Amnesia is one of the tropiest of tropes. I have zero desire for it. Therefore, I suspect it may be on the EPs and writers radar. 

[ComicFan777]

How about this scenario...Diggle and Felicity investigate another one of Andy's evil connections.  They end up getting kidnapped by a secret organization that has been tracking and imprisoning superheroes.  Assuming this organization is the same one that utilizes the Calculator's skills, they need a new tech.  The secret organization blackmails Felicity into doing their bidding or else they kill Diggle.  Oliver, Thea, and Lyla with ARGUS team up to try to find them over the summer.  At the beginning of next season, Felicity and Diggle escape along with a whole bunch of superheroes - that gives them their network of superhero friends (eventual Justice League), plenty of Delicity moments, and the Team Arrow mission in season 5 works on taking down the secret organization targeting superheroes.

[Guest]

I don't know how I feel about temporary evil Felicity. I'm undecided about it. I don't want an amnesia storyline though. There's a current WIP fanfic with that storyline and I had to stop reading it because it was so frustrating. God knows what I'd be like having to sit through that for weeks. LOL.

 

 

I wonder.... Because everyone knows that Oliver is the GA do you guys think there's a possibility he'll go public with this info at the end of the season? Sort of like a cliffhanger for next? I'd much prefer that than anything to do with Felicity tbh

 

I actually think that's the next step. If not the end of this season, I definitely think it'll happen at some point in s5. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

It would be kinda funny if that is why it was an important mention in Star City 2046 that everything could have been caused because Sara and Ray didn't come back.

 

If Sara and Ray didn't come back, left to his own devices, Oliver gives the video to Samantha in the present - it somehow gets into the wrong hands and then he gets outed leading to Star City 2046 timeline.

If Sara and Ray came back, he could give them the video, they timehop and give it to William in the future, and no one intercepts it - happier timeline.

 

Having Sara and Ray coming back had nothing to do with having them fight alongside the Arrow, it just boiled down to them being good messengers. 

Oh lord, I would die laughing if they wrote that in!!!

[statsgirl]

I wonder if they'll have Oliver go public at the end of season 5, to coincide with the end of the five year flashbacks.

[BkWurm1]

Amnesia is one of the tropiest of tropes. I have zero desire for it. Therefore, I suspect it may be on the EPs and writers radar. 

The only way I'd be good with the Amnesia plot is if they played it for laughs. A one off episode.  She can either revert to Goth Felicity or flirt like hell with the masked GA or remembers Oliver Queen as a douchebag playboy (that she thinks is cute).  Or maybe just hit on Diggle.   Bonus points if she remembers via the classic head bonk of restored memory. 

 

I wonder.... Because everyone knows that Oliver is the GA do you guys think there's a possibility he'll go public with this info at the end of the season? Sort of like a cliffhanger for next? I'd much prefer that than anything to do with Felicity tbh

I would hate that story line so badly.  Why?  Because they would arrest him which means Oliver Queen stops having a life and has to go into hiding and suddenly all his loved ones are at risk and they too lose their freedom.  It's an impossible scenario outside of Iron Man.  Iron Man was at least partially sanctioned eventually by the government.  The Green Arrow never is going to be.  It's a dead end storyline.  Either he hangs up the hood or they have to prove AGAIN that he's actually not the Green Arrow. 

 

Let Oliver go public as the Mayor.  Leave the GA to the shadows. 

[Chaser]

I really enjoyed the Smallville episode 'Blank.' The one where Clark loses his memory.

I enjoyed it for the Clark and Chloe interactions. It was a nice showcase of their relationship. A similar episode with a focus on the relationships and a nice dose of humor could be fun.

[ComicFan777]

What circumstances would prompt Oliver to reveal his identity as the Green Arrow? 

 

I remember Oliver mentioning that he wears a mask to protect those he loves.  If he reveals his identity, then I would think everyone around him would be unsafe - it would be even harder to have a normal life or a family.  He has already sent one son away because he felt he couldn't protect him as it is.  Oliver still struggles with balancing OQ/GA without his secret identity being known.  If his identity is revealed, it seems like he would be condemned to being just the GA without a real life.

 

When Oliver was outed as the Green Arrow in Star City 2046, he went into hiding.
What would be the difference in going public himself now versus getting outed in the future? 

 

Does revealing his identity now somehow allow him to protect his loved ones more now rather than in the future...because I think I might be missing something?

Edited March 21, 2016 by ComicFan777

[doesntworkonwood]

I don't know how I feel about temporary evil Felicity. I'm undecided about it. I don't want an amnesia storyline though. There's a current WIP fanfic with that storyline and I had to stop reading it because it was so frustrating. God knows what I'd be like having to sit through that for weeks. LOL.

Whilst I agree with you, sitting through an Amnesia storyline for weeks would be really awful, I actually wouldn't mind amnesia. A) Because I do quite like tropes when they're written well, B) I think Amnesia (from either Felicity or Oliver) would help to showcase not only how their relationship has developed but how they've both developed as characters and C) The way these writers go through plot, it's going to last a week/ a week and a half tops, and I don't mind that. I don't think that there's anyway that they'll let a foreground storyline that affects everything else go on longer than that. It's not like BMD where they could mention it in one episode and then shove it to the back, or like Thea's bloodlust where it can come up but largely be ignored because the more important plot is the plot of the episode.

[calliope1975]

I'd be okay with an amnesia story line for Felicity if it did have comedic elements and only lasted a episode or two. Nothing long or drawn out. 

 

I don't know what would be gained in Oliver outing himself as GA. I found it interesting in DD that the

evil ninjas ended up targeting people DD had saved. It's not only your friends and family who are at risk now - who may or may not know your secret vigilante identity. 

 

[FurryFury]

I feel like I've seen the amnesia for one of the love interests trope hundreds of times, and it was NEVER done well. Never. I don't believe Arrow could be the exception, considering the overall quality of the writing.

 

One episode with humor, a la Angel - now, that could work. (Of course, Angel also had the bad Cordelia amnesia storyline, too).

Edited March 21, 2016 by FurryFury

[AyChihuahua]

Obviously the best amnesia storyline ever was BtVS's Tabula Rasa. Hilariously funny from start to near-finish, then totally heartbreaking at actual finish.

 

Also, it had an actual loan shark. GENIUS.

 

I'm down with a one-off funny amnesia storyline, but nothing drawn out or superdark. However, I'm maybe in the minority that I don't want anything really dark any more. I'm over it. IMO Arrow used up its series-long allotment of angst in S3 and they need to STOP. They can have drama and even sadness, but the BS angst has got to stop.

[dtissagirl]

I think Teen Wolf is doing amnesia next season? So I almost want Arrow to do it too so I can compare & contrast what terribad showrunners who don't know how to write romance do with the trope.

[wonderwall]

The whole "Love is dead" thing from the comic strip makes me LOL because of how on the nose it is after O/F breaking up... I cringe at how tropey this is all going to be. 

[Guest]

LOL. Love is dead. I appreciate that brick falling on my head. 

 

ARGUS isn't doing a good job of keeping prisoners, is it? King Shark escaped, now Cupid. It's a mess! LOL.

[Midnight Lullaby]

LOL, Oliver is going to be all mopey until she takes him back isn't he?

[looptab]

LOLOLOL Love is dead. Let's cringe, shall we?

 

LOL, Oliver is going to be all mopey until she takes him back isn't he?

We'll have at least an episode of Sad Panda Oliver for sure.

Edited March 21, 2016 by looptab

[wonderwall]

LOLOLOL Love is dead. 

 

We have at least an episode of Sad Panda for sure.

It isn't an episode of Arrow if Oliver isn't a sad panda about something... Who knows we might even get frustrated Oliver like from 3x07 when he got all violent at the fern...

 

[tarotx]

LOL. He really is going to be a cute little kindergartner, wanting his own way but knowing it's his own fault, so trying not to throw a tantrum but not exactly succeeding. 

[wonderwall]

LOL. He really is going to be a cute little kindergartner, wanting his own way but knowing it's his own fault, so trying not to throw a tantrum but not exactly succeeding. 

What are you talking about? He's going to be "an adult about it" ;)