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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

I used to love Quentin a lot and I would have been so happy to see this father figure story play out back then. I remember being so happy to see that "what, you got a hot date or something?" scene before S3 started. It's kind of amazing how quickly the show dismantled the Oliver/Quentin relationship and Quentin as a character. I held on for a long time and still felt like he was redeemable, but that ended even before the Roy thing. I certainly like him better right now than I did, but there's no coming back, for me. So while I'd also be happy to be rid of Laurel, I don't think it's happening, and I'll accept getting rid of another character whose journey will never interest me again. Sad for Donna, DGAF for any other reason.

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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kismet

kismet

(edited)

ugh all of you just killed my dreams.

 

And honestly I don't know why Oliver's so chummy with Quentin. He's been TERRIBLE to Oliver AND the team. HE is a huge reason why Roy had to flee, leave his loved ones, stop doing something that gives his life meaning. WHY would he care deeply about Quentin after all that???? Oliver has ZERO ties with Quentin now. So what is the deal???? It's just so forced

Plus I think OQ bears some responsibility in QL’s manhunt last year. OQ knows that. The show & I know that. If he had been honest with him about the ARROW and especially about SL, then that might have changed the outcome or the need for the manhunt. OQ keeping secrets is part of the reason the manhunt happened. OQ is part of the reason QL was emotionally not in a healthy place to make wise decisions.

 

It’s sad what happened to Roy. But that is also mostly on Roy, he volunteered to take the blame and uproot his life. Nobody asked him to do it and nobody forced him to do it.  I don’t see why QL should be held responsible for Roy’s actions. Which is probably why the team is so forgiving, Roy is alive so there is not the burden of his death. It’s easier to forgive QL’s actions because in the end it didn’t take anything permanently away.

 

As for LL, OQ & the show could have cut her out years ago. She is like a living breathing virus at this point. Attacks at vulnerable time and lies dormant. Its pesky to kill and will linger long past when you encountered it. Seriously there might not be any anti-viral to get rid of her. But I have hope! Keep dreaming... I think it could still be LL.

Edited by kismet
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cambridgeguy

cambridgeguy

 

There is really a fine line they are gonna have to walk to make this story authentic and respectful in the current setting.

In the Dark Knight Rises Bruce Wayne healed from his broken back by having some guy punch a vertebrae back into place and inexplicably regained full use of his crippled leg after a stint in that hole.  For all of the complaints about that movie I don't remember a lasting outcry over how disrespectful that was to the paralyzed community.  I doubt the showrunners are going to care that much about how they resolve any potential paralysis storylines here, especially with the combined "tech" of Palmer Tech and Star Labs - although, to be fair, apparently Caitlin and Cisco didn't consider it feasible to come up with something that could heal their "crippled" boss.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Plus I think OQ bears some responsibility in QL’s manhunt last year. OQ knows that. The show & I know that. If he had been honest with him about the ARROW and especially about SL, then that might have changed the outcome or the need for the manhunt. OQ keeping secrets is part of the reason the manhunt happened. OQ is part of the reason QL was emotionally not in a healthy place to make wise decisions.

 

Nah. Quentin didn't need to know that Oliver was the Arrow to be able to piece together that the Arrow he'd been working with peacefully, who had saved his daughter (and him) on how many occasions, had saved the city on how many occasions, had helped him do the work that his own police force couldn't do hadn't done a complete 180 and gone back to randomly murdering people. He was pissed that the Arrow didn't tell him that Sara was dead, but he didn't completely lose his shit until Ra's told him that Sara made it to Lian Yu after the Gambit sank. And Oliver truly believed that Sara had died on the Amazo, so why would he have told Quentin that hey, she died, she just didn't die when you thought she did, and she had a pretty shitty two years between deaths? I don't blame him for that at all - not sure why anyone in the audience would.

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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

inexplicably regained full use of his crippled leg after a stint in that hole

 

Bruce had put on a knee brace earlier in the movie which helped him walk, run, and be Batman like normal.  We never saw it removed so it's an easy assumption that it was still in place during and after his time in the Pit.  Bane had just broken his back so he wouldn't have cared about a knee brace.

 

My original idea on who was in the grave was Earth 2 Oliver Queen but that guy's already dead so I think it's Lance.  I would also accept Earth 2 Robert Queen, which could be an interesting twist, but I think the E2 stuff will remain on The Flash.

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looptab

looptab

I used to love Quentin a lot and I would have been so happy to see this father figure story play out back then. I remember being so happy to see that "what, you got a hot date or something?" scene before S3 started. It's kind of amazing how quickly the show dismantled the Oliver/Quentin relationship and Quentin as a character. 

That's me as well. I hated Quentin in S1, he won me over in s2, and I loved the relationship they had built between him and Arrow (and Team Arrow). There was that scene in "Sara" where he notices that the Arrow is having a rough day; the one in "The Climb" where he tells him he is the closest thing he has to a partner. And then...SMH. I'm willing to see where it goes, I'm not at the point where he is irredeemable in my eyes, but dismantling 3 seasons of progression in 3 episodes, and then starting anew as if nothing has ever happened is truly baffling. 

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bijoux

bijoux

(edited)

I hate to say it...but, I think Felicity dies but I don't think she is the one in the grave.

When do you think she dies in that case? She's definitely still filming and they're discussing her father.

Edited by bijoux
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calliope1975

calliope1975

I hate to say it...but, I think Felicity dies but I don't think she is the one in the grave.

 

I'm fine with Felicity flatlining and being revived. Or a coma. I think I might be disappointed if there's no coma. That's soap opera 101. But I'm not okay with a permanent death.

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catrox14

catrox14

Why would she get her codename in episode 11 if she dies? Plus there's still her Papa Smoak arc. 

 

I don't really trust anything in the show right now re Felicity. I just don't. It's too good to be true.  I don't know why SA would make a big deal out of the music cue if someone in a limo scene that sounds very similar as a mirror to the limo scene in the episode Moira died.. Of course..I could be totally wrong. Maybe Thea is in limo with them and Thea dies. 

 

Like I said, I just don't trust the show re Felicity. JMHO.

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

(edited)

Willa was also filming episodes post-409, so I don't think any of the regulars die permanently in 409.

 

I'm certain the cliffhanger is gonna be OMG IS FELICITY DEAD IS SHE IN THE GRAVE?!, though.

Edited by dtissagirl
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)

Ok but she was on set filming for 411 this week. So how is she dead dead in 409 but still filming in 411?

I'm certain the cliffhanger is gonna be OMG IS FELICITY DEAD IS SHE IN THE GRAVE?!, though.

But it's only been 2 months. People have to realize this cliffhanger can't very the person in the grave, right?

Edited by Morrigan2575
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Guest

Guest

When SA repeats spoilers about a certain thing, it means he's hyped and excited about it and wants everyone to know. I doubt very much he would be hyped about Felicity dying. It'll look like she's dead though and then 410 she'll be in hospital. 

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looptab

looptab

I think it's because they're going to leave uswith a cliffhanger involving Felicity, and they want to emotionally manipulate the audience. So haunting Christmas song, the two of them happy, then BAM! 

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

But it's only been 2 months. People have to realize this cliffhanger can't very the person in the grave, right?

 

I know two casual viewers who watch the show unspoiled and out of fandom, and they think the grave is coming in 409. I don't think people paid too much attention to the "6 months" thing.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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I know two casual viewers who watch the show unspoiled and out of fandom, and they think the grave is coming in 409. I don't think people paid too much attention to the "6 months" thing.

Huh, I guess I never thought that people would have missed or ignored the 6 months subtitle. I guess I could see it working then, if they think the death will come in the MSF.
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

At this point, while I am utterly positive Felicity's not dying, period, I would almost welcome it.  This show with its IMO ridiculous love of angst and melodrama frustrates the shit out of me, and if they killed Felicity I could quit cold turkey with no regret.

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kismet

kismet

To me, blaming OQ and Roy for what they had to do to help the team (in Roy's case keep anyone from going to prison for being heroes for three years), is very much blaming the victim.  

I'm not blaming the victim. I don't see it as a situation where there is victims. OQ had an opportunity to tell QL the truth (about SL & the Arrow) and chose not to, there are repercussions for that. There was guilt & blame to be spread around. No one was really an innocent victim in s3. But we are free to have a difference of opinion, and agree to disagree.

 

I'm just saying the situation was grey and fluid. There is the potential for blame to be in percentages. Yes the majority of the blame lies in QL. But QL was doing his job. And I totally agree with you on your previous feelings that he absolutely crossed a line in the Paddy Wagon, but that's a whole other story. It's not like QL went on the manhunt with absolutely no shred of evidence. The arrows were identical and he had multiple dead bodies, including the mayor that needed to be a suspect in their murder.

 

I also tend to forgive easier than I trust. So them forgiving QL I understand. Trusting him is a whole other story, since he's shown how he responds in certain situations. But in the show, it seems like they have worked through a lot of these issues offscreen. SO we have to accept it to a certain degree. Plus its part of my s3 olive branch, things were necessary for plot, so I extend a more forgiving hand on a lot of what happened in s3.

 

As for RH, it as was a noble sacrifice, but it was all his choosing. He should have just let OQ go to jail. He had already brokered his team immunity. I'm not gonna hold it against QL that RH wanted to be a hero. Should he have been better protected in jail, YES. But the criminal justice system in SC seems to be struggling.

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kismet

kismet

Nah. Quentin didn't need to know that Oliver was the Arrow to be able to piece together that the Arrow he'd been working with peacefully, who had saved his daughter (and him) on how many occasions, had saved the city on how many occasions, had helped him do the work that his own police force couldn't do hadn't done a complete 180 and gone back to randomly murdering people. He was pissed that the Arrow didn't tell him that Sara was dead, but he didn't completely lose his shit until Ra's told him that Sara made it to Lian Yu after the Gambit sank. And Oliver truly believed that Sara had died on the Amazo, so why would he have told Quentin that hey, she died, she just didn't die when you thought she did, and she had a pretty shitty two years between deaths? I don't blame him for that at all - not sure why anyone in the audience would.

I'm not blaming him for not telling him about SL & the Amazo. Honestly, I'm not sure the show has revealed to us what the truth is and exactly to what extent OQ knew or did not know that SL was alive or dead.

 

I'm talking about telling him that his daughter was dead and murdered in his own city in 301. That put QL in a world of hurt and made it seem like he was untrustworthy. I also think that if he had told QL earlier that he was the Arrow it would have prevented QL from thinking that he was capable of killing all those new people, especially after all of the Arrow's reformed behavior in s2&3. But keeping QL out of the truth loop x2, just made it more likely for QL to think that OQ was capable of all that bad. Especially in light of the way Ras dropped more truth bombs on him. OQ's silence made the ground fertile for Ras' emotional manipulation of OQ,

 

But again, in story they have seemed to work through their issues or as much as anybody does on this show., so we to an extent have to accept that.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

SA has  admitted that emotionally he hates that part of things but the drama queen side of him loves it. So make of that what you will.

I think we are going to get a reaction scene from Oliver that kill us emotionally and implies that Felicity is dead. 

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

I'm not blaming him for not telling him about SL & the Amazo. Honestly, I'm not sure the show has revealed to us what the truth is and exactly to what extent OQ knew or did not know that SL was alive or dead.

 

I'm talking about telling him that his daughter was dead and murdered in his own city in 301. That put QL in a world of hurt and made it seem like he was untrustworthy. I also think that if he had told QL earlier that he was the Arrow it would have prevented QL from thinking that he was capable of killing all those new people, especially after all of the Arrow's reformed behavior in s2&3. But keeping QL out of the truth loop x2, just made it more likely for QL to think that OQ was capable of all that bad. Especially in light of the way Ras dropped more truth bombs on him. OQ's silence made the ground fertile for Ras' emotional manipulation of OQ,

 

Sorry, we'll just have to disagree. Quentin had absolutely no reason to believe that the Arrow had gone back to killing people. None. He has at minimum two brain cells to rub together, which sadly is enough to figure out that there could've been someone walking around impersonating the Arrow. Especially since he'd recently learned that his own daughter was impersonating his other daughter and he didn't even realize it. He himself had made it clear that he didn't want to know who the Arrow was. So I don't think it's fair to hold that secret against Oliver, since Quentin wanted him to keep it. 

 

As for Sara's death, well...yeah, Oliver should've told him. But I don't really feel for Quentin taking that out on Oliver since we know Laurel was the one who wanted that secret kept, and Oliver was just (stupidly) doing as she asked. So, Quentin still seems unjustified to me - I don't feel for him lashing out at Oliver at all. 

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kismet

kismet

Minus Vaughn's secret keeping, I imaging something like what happened on Alias. Though of Course probably no pretend death at the start of the new year.

Stop with the Alias! :) Seriously that car scene still gets me every time. I've have seen it a lot and I'm still shocked by it. It's jaw dropping even when you know it's happening.

 

This has been my running fear of anything to with O/F since they started talking about accidents. I feel like we went through a round of conversation a few months ago with speculation about something similar. But I do agree that an accident like this is highly probable to happen.

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jay741982

jay741982

I think we are going to get a reaction scene from Oliver that kill us emotionally and implies that Felicity is dead.

I don't doubt that at all. I think we might even get a "dying" monologue from Felicity. She'll pass out/"die" cue Oliver's heartbreaking reaction. END MIDSEASON FINALE

Huh, I guess I never thought that people would have missed or ignored the 6 months subtitle. I guess I could see it working then, if they think the death will come in the MSF.

I'm not surprised at people missing the six months later subtitle. Sometimes people see what they wanna see

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Belinea

Belinea

I don't doubt that at all. I think we might even get a "dying" monologue from Felicity. She'll pass out/"die" cue Oliver's heartbreaking reaction. END MIDSEASON FINALE

But no before we flash to the grave and Donna showing up. Because thinking Felicity is actually dead will give fans a very nice Christmas feeling. 

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catrox14

catrox14

I'm not surprised at people missing the six months later subtitle. Sometimes people see what they wanna see

 

 

Sometimes they just don't notice those captions. I know I sure didn't the first time. I had to go back and rewatch and specifically look for that caption to make sense of it. I don't think it's a matter of people seeing what they want to see. YMMV

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kismet

kismet

I really think a fake-out death would get the audience to think that could be the potential future grave dweller. ARROW generally follows a real time timeline, but who's to say that they are going to keep that pattern? They may decide to jump the timeline. They've never done a flash fwd, so they might change their minds and be more free with the timeline. They seem to be writers of habit, so I doubt it - but anything is possible.

 

That being said. I do not think that whoever is being hurt in 409 is the person in the grave. But I think they will try to make people believe that. What we know is it's going to emotional and its going to be tragic. However, we know there is a hospital, so it's not permanent. We also know that it will include either FS or Dig because those are the people that mean the most to OQ, that have not been seen in BTS. TQ/WH was rumored to have filmed a scene outside the hospital. EBR & DR are the only ones that have not had BTS photos showing them injuryless.

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I think it's also that a casual viewer might legit not realize that the show sort of follows real time. We know the grave is in 6 months in real time because the EPs said so in interviews. Casual viewers might not be reading those. And if they watch unspoiled, they have no idea 409 is a Christmas episode. That's an accurate description of my two buddies. They're not invested enough to know any of this, they just watch the show.

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jay741982

jay741982

But no before we flash to the grave and Donna showing up. Because thinking Felicity is actually dead will give fans a very nice Christmas feeling.

Oh yeah nothing like a little "death" to brighten the holiday mood

Sometimes they just don't notice those captions. I know I sure didn't the first time. I had to go back and rewatch and specifically look for that caption to make sense of it. I don't think it's a matter of people seeing what they want to see. YMMV

Yeah you're right. UGH my verbal diraheea

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Guest

Guest

I think it's also that a casual viewer might legit not realize that the show sort of follows real time. We know the grave is in 6 months in real time because the EPs said so in interviews. Casual viewers might not be reading those. And if they watch unspoiled, they have no idea 409 is a Christmas episode. That's an accurate description of my two buddies. They're not invested enough to know any of this, they just watch the show.

 

Yep. This. I guarantee my mom, typical casual viewer, will watch 409 and say "See, Felicity's the one who dies! I told you so waaaaah!" Haha.

 

A lot of people don't remember every detail from every episode and they'll definitely think 409 is the six months later.

 

THIS IS GONNA BE SUCH A FUN HIATUS! LMAO.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

I think it's also that a casual viewer might legit not realize that the show sort of follows real time. We know the grave is in 6 months in real time because the EPs said so in interviews. Casual viewers might not be reading those. And if they watch unspoiled, they have no idea 409 is a Christmas episode. That's an accurate description of my two buddies. They're not invested enough to know any of this, they just watch the show.

I mentioned to my lone real life friend that watches Arrow that I would be sad to see him go but yep, I was sure it was Quentin in the grave.  His reply:  "What grave?"  Somehow he managed to completely forget about that scene even though he is a regular viewer of both Flash and Arrow.  Mind boggling. 

Edited by BkWurm1
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jay741982

jay741982

Yep. This. I guarantee my mom, typical casual viewer, will watch 409 and say "See, Felicity's the one who dies! I told you so waaaaah!" Haha.

A lot of people don't remember every detail from every episode and they'll definitely think 409 is the six months later.

THIS IS GONNA BE SUCH A FUN HIATUS! LMAO.

Oh yeah it is I can't wait to hear all the Felicity haters rejoice

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Guest

Guest

Oh yeah it is I can't wait to hear all the Felicity haters rejoice

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

Let them rejoice. And I'll rejoice when 410 proves that she's alive. 

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

I think you guys need to make a blood pact to not go read the opinions of people who are wrong on the internets ever again.

So what you are saying is we should stop going on the internet?   ;p

Edited by BkWurm1
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